Template talk:Sonic the Hedgehog

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Organisation of main series games

Hi, I edited the template to organise the main series games into 2D and 3D, as opposed to console and handheld; however, this was reverted by User:TheJoebro64. I think it makes more sense to organise by 2D/3D since readers are probably more concerned with the differences in games rather than what hardware they appeared on. I think this is an especially strange way to organise these games considering many of the console games have appeared on handheld consoles, whether as later ports or different versions. For example, Sonic Colors released on the Wii and DS on the same day yet it's only listed under console. Not a major issue either way, just my thoughts. :) TehRYNOL (talk) 18:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't strike me as ideal with so many titles moving back and forth between 2D and 3D. Sergecross73 msg me 18:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I did my edit I based it off of this page: List of Sonic the Hedgehog video games. I think it's more ideal than basing it off of hardware. I think the way it is now is sort of falsely implying there aren't any handheld versions of Sonic Colors, Generations, Lost World, and even the upcoming Frontiers on Switch. TehRYNOL (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Colors, Generations, and Lost World were primarily console games, and the handheld versions don't have their own articles. And the Switch is treated primarily as a home console on Wikipedia. There's a clear distinction between the console and handheld Sonic games; they were handled by separate teams and meant for different hardware, and we shouldn't be listing things like Sonic Blast or Pocket Adventure alongside the big console releases. JOEBRO64 19:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I mean fair, but Colors, Generations, and Lost World are also primarily 3D games by the same argument, at least as far as I'm concerned. I know that's a subjective take, but my point is that saying a game is primarily a console game is also quite subjective. Why shouldn't Sonic Blast or Pocket Adventure be listed alongside the "big console releases"? They already are - as they're clearly listed as main series games. Saying something is made by different teams would also mean there's issues with listing Sonic CD, 3D Blast, Sonic 4, and Sonic Mania for example. Like I see what you're getting at, and I do kind of agree, but I think the way it's listed now is less helpful than if it were organised by 2D and 3D. I think there's also a much more difficult question pertaining to what exactly makes something a "main series" game that maybe influences this decision-making somewhat, but I don't think that's really solvable unfortunately. Regardless, that's all I'll say on that. Thanks! TehRYNOL (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One of the reasons it was set up this way because generally people group together the Genesis games and the Game Gear games, and all the Sonic Chaos/Triple tithes interspersed in between Sonic 2/3/Knuckles. Both approaches have good and bad parts to them. Unfortunately it's difficult to come up with ways to organize a template this large that 100% works without exceptions and is understandable with absolutely no context. Sergecross73 msg me 20:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whether a game is a console game has been very clear prior to the Nintendo Switch console generation. The Sonic main series games had a separate product line between for (home) console and for handheld, and this navbox's organization reflected that pretty well. Any Sonic game that does not have a home console release (except for emulation and compilation releases) is listed under handheld. Reorganizing the games into 2D vs. 3D creates gray areas: What about pseudo-3D isometric platformers (Sonic 3D Blast)? And how about games that have 3D graphics but play area restricted to 2D (Sonic Rush)? That's more subjective than the current console vs. handheld approach. Explorer09 (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I found out that separating 2D and 3D in the "Console" row is a pretty good idea. I take back my original comment. However, I would mark that the 2D and 3D table rows refer to gameplay only so as to minimize confusion. The example formatting can look like this:

--Explorer09 (talk) 09:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the change, as I was opposed to this back in 2022, and remain opposed. Its making this overly complicated. There's no reason to overclassify like this. It's also erroneous, as there's lots of 2D gameplay in a number of the "3D" entries. (Generations, Lost World, Colors, etc.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I don't really see the utility here either. Popcornfud (talk) 17:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic Dream Team

Why is it in the mobile spin-off category? It's not a mobile-exclusive game, as it's also on macOS and tvOS. Ian Flynn also stated that it's part of the official Sonic timeline, unlike the mobile games, so it's clearly some levels above games like Sonic Runners or Sonic Dash. Endianer (talk) 03:11, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do reliable sources generally classify it? We usually go more by that tan crusty reasons like "fictional timelines". I honestly don't know the answer to my question, so I can do some digging if need be... Sergecross73 msg me 03:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that it's not a "standard" mobile game. Regardless of how relevant or irrelevant the timeline is for the categorization criteria, the fact Sega specifically labeled it as canon when it called all the mobile games non-canon sets it apart from them and tells us that Sega sees it as more "significant".
Canon status aside, its game structure and gameplay are also more involved and less casual than the mobile games', and closer to the main series.
As for your question, beats me. I don't think Sega has commented on whether it's mainline or not, but I haven't specifically looked into it. Endianer (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand it's not a "standard mobile" game, I'm just saying you haven't advanced any sort of valid argument towards moving it to the standard mainline entry section either. Sergecross73 msg me 13:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was there even any discussion on the game's status? Or was it just thrown into the mobile spin-off category because it was seen as another mobile game? Endianer (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to Sonic Dream Team, Sega didn't release any mobile Sonic platform game that is considered "canon" to the main series. The endless runner and Doodle Jump-like variants of platformers are obvious spin-offs. The fact that Sega didn't consider a console release of Sonic Dream Team confuses me, as any Sonic mainline game ought to have a console release and making it mobile exclusive doesn't make sense. My personal opinion is to wait. If Sega ever announce a console release of Sonic Dream Team then we can move it to mainline; otherwise keep it as is for now. --Explorer09 (talk) 07:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pocket Adventure

I think Sonic Pocket Adventure needs to be moved to the "Spin-offs" section rather than placed in the main series. According to Ian Flynn (per this episode of his podcast), when writing the Encyclo-speed-ia guide book, he was explicitly prohibited from even mentioning Pocket Adventure or referring to it by name due to unspecified legal issues with the game. Unlike other games on this list like 3D Blast where people have argued whether they count as mainline due to "vibes" or whatever, this seems like a pretty explicit case of Sega saying "this is not only not a mainline game, but we take no ownership of it whatsoever", and should be classified accordingly. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd never heard of that before. I have no objections to moving it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:52, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Official main series list from Pix'n Love's History of Sonic

I'm reading Pix'n Love's The History of Sonic the Hedgehog, which was licensed by Sega, right now and turns out it has an official Sega-approved list of the mainline Sonic games. Thought it'd be worth producing here; it's divided between the 2D, 3D, and handheld games released as of 2012.

2D:

  • Sonic the Hedgehog
  • Sonic the Hedgehog 2
  • SegaSonic the Hedgehog
  • Sonic CD
  • Sonic the Hedgehog 3
  • Sonic & Knuckles
  • Sonic 3D Blast
  • Sonic the Hedgehog 4

3D:

  • Sonic Adventure
  • Sonic Adventure 2
  • Sonic Heroes
  • Shadow the Hedgehog
  • Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
  • Sonic and the Secret Rings
  • Sonic Unleashed
  • Sonic and the Black Knight
  • Sonic Colors
  • Sonic Generations

Handheld:

  • Sonic the Hedgehog
  • Sonic the Hedgehog 2
  • Sonic Chaos
  • Sonic Triple Trouble
  • Sonic Blast
  • Sonic Pocket Adventure
  • Sonic Advance
  • Sonic Advance 2
  • Sonic Advance 3
  • Sonic Rush
  • Sonic Rivals
  • Sonic Rush Adventure
  • Sonic Rivals 2
  • Sonic Colors
  • Sonic Generations

Every other game released at that point in time is designated as a spin-off. The only real differences between our classifications and the book's are that SegaSonic, Pocket Adventure, Shadow, the Rivals games, and the Storybook games are classified as mainline. Not particularly arguing we should redo the template to align with this, just thought it was interesting there is actually an official list and this would be a good place to produce it for future reference. JOEBRO64 17:24, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting organization. On one hand, I like seeing more evidence for titles like 3D Blast, which can be contentious with the hardcore fanbase. But there's so many strange calls, like SegaSonic or Rivals being mainline, that, similar to as you say, it would be difficult to adapt wholesale... Sergecross73 msg me 18:13, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to see how the template would look if we were to follow the official list.

Honestly, it's not bad! I might actually prefer doing it like this—it'd be more encyclopedic to base our "mainline" criteria on an official source rather than making it up based on vibes or whatever like we do currently. It's about the same size as the template is currently so bloat isn't an issue, and we don't have to worry about big console entries like CD and Adventure being next to the lesser handheld entries like the Game Gear stuff. JOEBRO64 13:47, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The character part of the template

Someone has added some random non-sonic character that are called Honey the cat and when I hover over it with my mouse on computer it seems to lead to a character from a fighting game or something? I think that it should be removed due to not only not being a actual Sonic character but also not a even a character related to Sonic the hedgehog remotely in anyway so if it could be removed I think that would be good 2601:2C1:8383:1500:84A3:8BCA:C743:50D0 (talk) 22:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Honey the Cat was a character from Sonic the Fighters. Sergecross73 msg me 00:14, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article's still being worked on, but Honey's a character in both the Sonic and Virtua Fighter/Fighting Vipers. Check the last paragraph (currently) of the Appearances section.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:25, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay thanks for explaining your part and I am sorry for any confusion as it just looks out of place with the picture not exactly looking like a sonic related picture 135.26.78.147 (talk) 01:28, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Well as it currently stands the link when hovered over shows a preview that says “Honey was a character introduced in the 1995 fighting game Fighting Vipers, Developed by Sega's AM2 development team.” And that is all it says and there is a picture so either A: who ever set up the link got it wrong is some way some how, B: a weirdly timed case of vandalism, C: bad actors and while your supposed to assume good faith on Wikipedia the thing is so out of place that it seems like vandalism and also I am the same person just I am on mobile and somewhere else which is why there is a different IP address 135.26.78.147 (talk) 01:27, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It could definitely be linked a little more clearly or something, but it's certainly nothing like vandalism... Sergecross73 msg me 01:38, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that is my bad because I have never really done anything on Wikipedia other than reading stuff and so on a technical level something that looks out of place looks really out of place or something like that 135.26.78.147 (talk) 02:06, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Many don't initially realize that
vandalism has a very specific meaning on Wikipedia - it not only means "bad edit", but "bad edit made maliciously/on purpose". Anyways, the Honey article is still very new and developing, so we'll get a more clear link situation set up to cut down on confusion moving forward. Sergecross73 msg me 13:56, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply
]
I think maybe Honey should be moved to Others, since she's technically not a Sonic character, but a Fighting Vipers character that appeared as a guest fighter. If we have Honey in Characters we might as well add Nights for making similar guest appearances. Endianer (talk) 08:53, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a good comparison, as Nights doesn't have any sort of character article. Sergecross73 msg me 11:12, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then replace Nights in my comment with Banjo and Kazooie, who were in All-Stars Racing. Endianer (talk) 13:55, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that Banjo is a guest character in one specific version of All-Stars Racing who reuses his model from his own series. Honey was not only redesigned as an entirely different species to fit the Sonic aesthetic, but would go on to make comic appearances where she is depicted as a native resident of Sonic's world, with no strings attached. Even if she started as a Fighting Vipers character, she is also a proper Sonic character. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 17:03, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Sergecross73 msg me 17:29, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That very same comic featured Segata Sanshiro. Endianer (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Are you insinuating Segata Sanshiro was presented as an in-universe Sonic franchise character too? As opposed to some sort of whacky "cross-over" thing? Sergecross73 msg me 18:50, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: a character that looked like Segata Sanshiro was in one issue for two panels and never named. Also, she was also in IDW, not just Archie. And, most significantly, she was spotlighted in the Encyclo-speed-ia, which states "Honey is an homage to the fighter Candy from Fighting Vipers", i.e. not the exact same character. It's pretty cut-and-dry. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic 3D Blast, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic and the Black Knight

Is 3D Blast considered a spin-off, while Shadow, Secret Rings, and Black Knight considered to be part of the mainline installments? I mean, that's what I think when I came across an article ranking the mainline Sonic games, not including 3D Blast but including Shadow, Secret Rings and Black Knight. I hope someone can help me out on this. 2601:40D:101:9D60:3912:B0D3:7211:3D46 (talk) 16:24, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We generally go by what
reliable sources say on the matter, which has lead Shadow, Secret Rings + Black Knight as spinoffs, and Blast as a mainline. Secret Rings and Black Knight were marketed as part of the "Storybook series", so they've generally been considered spinoffs for that. And generally any time you don't play as a main character when the main character is also the title of the series, it gets called a spinoff - which is why sources generally called Shadow a spinoff. And outside of the isometric viewpoint, 3D Blast really is largely the same as most entries in the series at the time. Fans love to call it a spinoff, but reliable sources, even back in the 90s, rarely did. Sergecross73 msg me 16:51, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply
]
I'm not sure if this website is reliable, but Sonic Wiki Zone says that Sonic 3D Blast is a spin-off, but it also says that Shadow, Secret Rings and Black Knight are spin-offs. I'm very confused about this. 2601:40D:101:9D60:3912:B0D3:7211:3D46 (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No, any wiki is going to fail
WP:USERG. Sergecross73 msg me 23:14, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply
]
Oh, alright. Sorry for bringing that up. Looks like I am wrong about the template needing a change. Farewell. 2601:40D:101:9D60:3912:B0D3:7211:3D46 (talk) 01:00, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Sergecross73 msg me 01:54, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No, 3D Blast doesn't play the game as the other games, seeing how it focuses on item collecting over speed and getting to the goal. And what reliable sources treat it as mainline? Endianer (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What Sonic game doesn't focus on item collection? What do you think rings and emeralds are? That's hair-splitting that its somehow different when you have to collect birds in that one too. Sergecross73 msg me 15:00, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the same thing and you know it. The other games are traditional "get to the goal" platformers. 3D Blast is a collectathon. Endianer (talk) 15:04, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't tell me what I "know", and remember to
Sonic Frontier also a spinoff because progression is dependent on emblem collection? Of course not. Both are absurd. Sergecross73 msg me 15:27, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply
]
Apologies. You comparing flickies to rings and emeralds and saying that their only difference was that they were birds made it sound like you were playing dense or trolling to me.
Anyway, you said that 3D Blast plays like the other games. It doesn't. Frontiers doesn't either, but it's mainline because Sega treats it as such.
Likening 3D Blast's flickies to rings and emeralds is ridiculous. Rings and emeralds are optional collectibles, not the main focus. You can ignore them entirely and still beat the game.
You can't honestly tell me that a game where the main objective is just reaching the goal plays the same as a game where you're forced to track down all enemies in each level. Endianer (talk) 16:16, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And as I said, and you concede at least once, there are plenty of mainline Sonic games that require item collection for progression, so it does not make sense to make that a dealbreaker on its status. All your points are hair-splitting and picking and choosing what you wish to acknowledge or ignore. Sergecross73 msg me 16:42, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hair-splitting? Really? So you do think that "get to the goal" and "find all enemies in this level" are the exact same objective and gameplay style?
Both 3D Blast and Frontiers have "odd gameplay" per the template criteria, but the latter was treated as mainline by Sega.
Can we say the same of 3D Blast? I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about what reliable sources treated it as mainline. Endianer (talk) 16:49, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's hairsplitting. Sonic 1/2/3/K and Sonic 3D Blast can all be described as platformers where you navigate Sonic around environments where you collect rings, jump into enemies to defeat them, go to special stages to collect emeralds, and defeat a boss at the end of the level. The only minor difference is that Blast required you to grab collect some birds to progress through certain levels. Absolutely hairsplitting.
Its also rich that you're complaining about sources when you haven't provided any that called it a spinoff. In prior discussions, that why it was never moved to spinoff. Because reliable sources rarely if ever call it one. It's always random fans and messageboard people. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Right, the level goals being all scavenger hunts quests is a "minor" difference.
According to you, all platformers are collectathons.
And nevermind the fact that several professional reviewers stated that 3D Blast does play differently from traditional Sonic games. Like IGN saying that "the sense of speed and intense action that Sonic's name was built on is absent here, replaced by, essentially, a looping, lazy fetchquest", GameSpot calling the gameplay a scavenger hunt, or US Gamer and Complex saying that it didn't feel like a Sonic game.
Nice deflecting by the way. You're the one who claimed that reliable sources treat it as a mainline. Now that I've asked you back up that, you're trying to deflect and demand that I provide sources of it not being mainline. Endianer (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A major gameplay difference is something like racing go karts or playing tennis. Not having level progression gated by item collection. I can't break it down any simpler than that.
As far as sourcing goes, I'd correct my wording - Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Shadow are all due to reliable sources directly calling them spinoffs. With 3D Blast, there was consensus to keep it in mainline because reliable sources never used the term spinoff to describe it. 18:34, 9 July 2025 (UTC) Sergecross73 msg me 18:34, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Sonic_the_Hedgehog&oldid=1299705864"