Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montréal Expos

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was Keep. --Spinboy 06:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Montréal Expos and Montreal Expos

This team has moved to Washington, D.C. and is now known as the Washington Nationals. As has been pointed out on the talk page, it is the same franchise. The Washington Nationals article discusses the complete history of the franchise, including its days in Montreal. Hence, this separate page is redundant. Also, other franchises that have moved only have one page (e.g., Brooklyn Dodgers --> Los Angeles Dodgers and Seattle Pilots --> Milwaukee Brewers and St. Louis Browns --> Baltimore Orioles. All redirect to the team's current name. This page, as well as Montreal Expos, should redirect to Washington Nationals. All relevant information is already included there, so there is no need to merge.--Canoeguy81 05:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep. This borders on silly. The teams are entirely distinct, and the histories of the two teams will be entirely divergent. Fans of the former team are not fans of the new team, and fans of the new team don't care about or likely know much about the history of the old team. One team died and the other inherited its players (not its name or logo or mascot or anything else), that's all. The LA Dodgers kept the same name and had the same owner, there's a certain sense of continuity, a sense that the Brooklyn Dodgers history is part of the LA Dodgers history. There is no such continuity here, the Nationals are starting fresh, in every aspect except their starting lineup they are effectively an expansion franchise. -- Curps 05:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Do your research more closely. The franchise chose to change its name. Franchises sometimes change their names (Browns to Orioles, Senators to Twins) and sometimes they don't (Lakers, Jazz, Dodgers). The Nats could have kept their name, their logo, their mascot...those were business decisions. The Nats are not starting fresh. They use the same spring training facility, they take the same history of statistics, and the same retired numbers (Carter, Dawson, Staub). The same contracts are continued. Kingturtle 17:30, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • There are separate articles for the Washington Senators and the Minnesota Twins. Even though they're the same franchise, the Twins have a distinct history from the Senators, especially nearly half a century after the move. Iceberg3k 19:38, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
        • The only reason there is a Washington Senators article is because there were two MLB teams called that. The page is a disamb page. Kingturtle 20:51, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • the same people own the nats right now who owned expos last season mlb. a certain sense of continuity how about the same manager gm and players, spring training location.Smith03 20:48, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Teams that move cities and change names are effecively different. Consider the Cleveland Browns. They moved to Baltimore, became the Ravens, and a few years later a NEW franchise called the Browns was put in place in Cleveland as a CONTINUATION of the old franchise. We need to keep articles like this. &#151 FoodMarket&nbsp&nbsptalk! 06:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Just because we have the franchise now (I live near DC) doesn't mean we can completely ignore the fact that the team had a home in Montral for a long time. Mo0[talk] 06:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. It seems we have conflicting policies regarding this issue regarding teams who move to a different city and change their name. As I stated above, the
    Phoenix Coyotes are separated too. Zzyzx11 | Talk
    06:51, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. The Washington Nationals article was edited to remove all Montreal Expos history AFTER this vfd was posted. Also, if the result of this debate is a keep, should the histories of the two Washington Senators franchises be moved from their current locations (Texas Rangers and Minnesota Twins) and included with the Washington Nationals?--Canoeguy81 07:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I should also point out that Major League Baseball's official site recognizes that the Expos and the Nationals are the same franchise and lists Expos records and history under the Nationals' website.--Canoeguy81 08:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • REDIRECT to Washington Nationals. They are the same franchise. Kingturtle 07:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Since nobody seems to think these should be deleted (but rather made redirects or kept, what is this doing here?--
    Samuel J. Howard
    09:12, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
  • Since it was nominated in good faith, but consensus says to keep. So let's keep it. Radiant_* 10:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
    • Are you saying that you are voting to KEEP simply because that's what others are doing? Kingturtle 17:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - separate the articles and provide links, i.e, the Expos' article ends with reference to the Nats, and the Nats' articles begins with reference to the 'Spos. There is enough material for two articles, so let's keep it that way. Ground Zero 14:31, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Agree with GrounD Zero, that is exactly how it should be handled ---FoodMarket talk! 15:40, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • The fact that there's enough material for two articles is immaterial; there's enough material for several articles on the Braves franchise, but the appropriate way to handle that is to have a main article (Atlanta Braves) and have that article link to articles on different aspects of the franchise's history – NOT to have separate articles for the Boston Braves and Milwaukee Braves. The same is true here. MisfitToys 20:38, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Certainly notable. They weren't a one-season team like the Seattle Pilots. To the contrary, they were in Montréal for over three decades, and the fiasco with being owned by MLB, the John Henry / Jeff Loria switch, gutting the team of veteran talent during their last 5-10 years in Montréal, and playing a lot of "home" games in Puerto Rico (thousands of miles away from their home park) certainly makes this worthy of a keep. Go Nats, but remember the Expos too. --Idont Havaname 15:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • The franchise is the same. For other examples, please see this article's TALK page. Kingturtle 17:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Definitely notable. Definitely distinct from the new team. GrantNeufeld 15:34, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • The Nats are not a different team from the Expos. It is the same franchise. Kingturtle 17:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Team and franchise are two different concepts. You can move the management, you can move the players, you can even move the "franchise", but you can't move the team. The entity that was the Expos was based in Montreal. Now everything that made the Expos a team is gone, and the governing franchise decided to open another operation down south in Washington. Same franchise, new team. - Pioneer-12 18:50, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Definitely notable. Definitely distinct from the new team. --Spinboy 16:21, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • It is not distinct from the new team. they are the same team - just under a new name. please see the long list of examples in this TALK page.
  • I just feel bad for the kid who goes to Montreal Expos, gets redirected to Nats page (if you we do decide to redir, which i do NOT recommend) and gets frustrated and turns to another source, even IF the info is somewhere in the Nats article. There needs to be a separate article ---FoodMarket talk! 17:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep- Notable and should be seperate.
  • Comment The general rule in Wikipedia is to split off even closely related topics or subtopics when there's enough material for two articles. Thus, for instance, we have
    Mars and Mars in fiction. So arguments that the Nationals and Expos ought to be considered the same franchise would be irrelevant even if they were true... Expos information should still be split off into its own article. There is enough material for two articles, and people looking for information about one will rarely be interested in the other. Technicalities aside, they are two distinct topics. -- Curps
    17:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment For what it's worth, Soviet Union does not redirect to Russia even though Russia is considered the successor state to the Soviet Union (inheriting its United Nations Security Council seat, honoring its treaties and assuming its foreign debt, etc). -- Curps 17:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
True, but the Soviet Union didn't merely change its name. It's different country (actually several) with a new constitution. That's not the case here; there aren't separate articles for Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali, for instance. MisfitToys 20:38, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Different teams; "See alsos" work just fine. Jayjg (talk) 06:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable and distinct. El_C 07:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kingturtle the Expos and the Nationals are the same franchise. Wikipedia should have the same policy for all sport teams when a team moves unless there is some special or unqiue circumstances ie Cleveland Browns, where the NFL clearly made it a spereate team. I am from Minnesota and would not support a seprate Minnesota North Stars or Minneapolis Lakers article, thoses teams moved and their history becomes part of the new club ie Dallas Stars and Los Angeles Lakers. The Norquies, Jets and Whalers should be merger with Colorado, Phoenix and Carolina. Smith03 18:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • STRONG KEEP NHL teams have their own defunct franchise page, why not MLB? Whether MLB considers the Expos as a distinct franchise or not should be irrelevant: MLB played the principle role in killing baseball in Montreal through picking cronies of Bud Selig who would gut the team after the city refused to pay for a new baseball stadium. Using MLB's opinion as a crutch to support an argument against a seperate Montreal page is ludicrous. MLB wants Expos history to be brushed over, because it highlights their sins and incompetence in running baseball. -- Flynn
    The above was from Flynnie (talk · contribs). Comment was at the top (before proposer's comments), moved to the bottom. -- Curps 04:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Flynn, you're now bringing conspiracy theory into the mix. wikipedia should not cowtow to such emotions and to such inventions of conspiracies. the bottomline is that the expos and the nats are the same franchise, and all other MLB franchises carry with them their place and name histories. As for their time in Montreal, they finished last in NL attendance for seven years running (1998 - 2004) - and that streak started long before MLB took the franchise over. Furthermore, between 1984 and 2004, Montreal only twice finished as high as 8th in NL attendance, and those years were '84 and '85. So one can argue that the principle role in killing baseball in Montreal was lack of fan support. Kingturtle 07:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Bud Selig's own Milwaukee Brewers have an even more pitiful attendance record than Montreal. Your own ignorance about what happened with the Expos should not be used against the team. Read 'la Defense de Montreal' before you talk. What happened with the Expos was a travesty - no other sports team's fanbase has suffered through such a consistent effort by ownership and the league itself to poison enthusiasm in the insatiable quest for publicly funded stadiums, especially the Loria tenure that had some moves that bordered on racketeering. Flynnie
        • The Bud Selig saga with the Brewers is a completely different story. Selig LIED that the Brewers were financially ruined, but they weren't. he used the lie to get a stadium - and that is disgusting. Although Milwaukee's attendance has been weak, it is not "more pitiful" than the Expos. The Brewers outdrew the Expos in each of the last seven seasons.

*Extremely strong keep. --

Boothy443 | comhrÚ
04:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) WITHDRAWN


According to my tally keep received 26 votes to date, whereas redirect received 7 votes. I think both sides have made their point. Not much more needs to be said. I don't think an insurgence of redirect votes will come in so let's just keep the page.Trapper 00:09, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

  • Redirect despite 206.55.81.240's unsigned attempt to prematurely close discussion. —Wahoofive (Talk) 16:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • sorry just learned how to signTrapper

As stated earlier I feel this should be redirect to Washington, however Wikipedia needs to have a constitent policy. So if it is decided that the Montreal Expos should have it own page that would also mean the Los Angeles Angels, California Angels, Anaheim Angels whould each have it own page along with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.Smith03 18:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

PROPOSAL: While debate is still open and I don't want to seem presumptuous, it does seem that a consensus is forming to keep the Montreal Expos page. Therefore, I offer the following suggestion. Because the Expos' history (records, retired numbers, &c.) has transferred to the Nationals, the Nationals' article should still address the franchise's history as the Montreal Expos, albeit in brief. A link would direct the reader to the "main article" on the franchise's history in Montreal (see

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim), then each page should exist, but the page with the team's current name should be comprehensive. In other words, it should address the franchise's entire history, from 1961 to present. The other pages would address the team's history only under that name, and then link to the franchise's other articles.--Canoeguy81
22:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That would be the Washington Generals. Ellsworth 21:34, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Abstain. Frankly, if this is kept as a separate article or as a redirect, it makes no difference in terms of overall scope of information. Only the organization of the information will be affected. Either way, the kids will be alright. I do think old-time Expo fans would prefer to have the pages seperate, though. When baseball franchises move to another city and change their name, they do become a different entity. The whole concept of a baseball franchise "moving" is a bit of a lie. They only move in the most technical sense of the word. For all intents and purposes, the old franchise dies, and a new one is built elsewhere using it's bones and ashes. - Pioneer-12 13:23, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • That franchises move is not a lie. *ALL* contracts of the Expos are now with the Nats. *ALL* records of the Expos are now with the Nats. *ALL* retired numbers of the Expos are now retired numbers of the Nats. The Oakland Athletics, for example, own and display the World Series trophies the franchise won in Philadelphia. Kingturtle 15:10, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Then why did they move away from their hometown, their stadium, and their fans? Why did they abandon their name? They even left their country. Players are traded to different teams all the time. The Nationals may have some of the bones and ashes, but the Montreal Expos are dead. The Nationals should just admit it. It's not like many Expo fans are gonna to travel to Washington anyway. It is a sad day for baseball. Now that I think about it, it is clearly better to have these as two seperate pages. (The individual length of the pages will justify the seperation, in any case.) You don't want a bunch of angry Canadians on your hands, do you? Changing vote to Keep. Canada Viva Canada! Canada - Pioneer-12 23:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • They moved away because the franchise was losing money in Montreal. They were placing last in NL attendance for 8 years running. TV ratings were awful. When the Washington Senators moved to Minnesota, they changed the team name. When the 2nd Washington Senators moved to Texas, the changed the team name. When the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore, they changed the team name. Every single MLB team in Wikipedia carries with it its franchise history. The Nats/Expos issue should not get special treatment. Kingturtle 06:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comments: Regarding retired numbers, the LA Dodgers still have Roy Campanella's number retired; the SF Giants still have the numbers retired for Carl Hubbell, Mel Ott, and Bill Terry; the Braves still have Warren Spahn's number retired. The Nats still have Dawson, Staub and Carter's numbers retired. Kingturtle 15:39, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • And every team has Jackie Robinson's number retired. -- PFHLai 23:26, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)
  • Extreme keep. This is a separate team from the Washington Nationals, with its own history and "culture". --Deathphoenix 21:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • It is the same franchise. The Expos and the Nats are the same franchise. Kingturtle 22:39, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment. Same franchise does not mean it's the same team. Look, I can't stand spectator sports. I'm an anti-jock. I have zero patriotism for any of my local sports teams. That said, as a Wikipedian, I am for inclusion of meaningful articles, and for splitting into multiple articles where there is content to merit. The Expos article is a major case of a topic (or sub-topic) meriting its own article. Link it in with the new team that took the franchise, but don't diminish the content by taking away this article. GrantNeufeld 05:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • Every single MLB team article in wikipedia carries with it its franchise history. The Expos/Nats issue should not get special treatment. Kingturtle 06:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • There is no call for "special treatment". Every team with a history that moves and changes it's name should get a seperate entry for the previous name. If other teams don't have them, that's only because they haven't been created yet. Even if you don't think the old team is a seperate entity, it still deserves it's own page as a "major chapter" in the history of the current team. (It is not uncommon to split long, detailed histories into multiple pages.) Thus, whatever your personal beliefs about franchise reincarnation, there is no reason to deny this page. Also, merging the pages will create confusion. Gary Carter was an Expo and a Hall of Famer. He's even in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. He was never a National. Listing him as a "Hall of Famer for the Nationals" would be misleading. He belongs on the Expos page. The more I think about it, the more I see that it is just completely wrong to try to merge these pages. - Pioneer-12 07:29, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
            • Other teams don't have separate entries because that's the precedent. It's the same way with the NBA team articles and the NFL team articles. As for confusion, it is not confusing or misleading that Walter Johnson is listed and discussed on the Minnesota Twins article, or that George Sisler is listed on the Baltimore Orioles article, or that Jim Bouton is mentioned on the Milwaukee Brewers article - and it isn't confusing or misleading that the Nats have Gary Carter's number retired. Kingturtle 07:42, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Can we put aside emotional appeals and just look at this objectly MLB is going to treat the Expos and Nats as the same franchise. If we decide to have two artcles for the same team, than here are some more teams that we need to change or start a project for in the NFL:
    • Chicago Cardinals (1898-1959), St Louis Cardinals (1960-87), Phoenix Cardinals (1988-93), Dectaur Stayles, Chicago Stayles, Boston Braves Boston Redskins, Portsmouth Spartans, New York Titians, Boston Patroits, Houston Oilers Tennesse Oilers, Cleveland Rams, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Raiders (Perhaps Oakland Raider 1960-1981) Dallas Texans (1960-62 AFL)
  • NBA
    • Minneapolis Lakers, Ft Wayne Pistons, Syracuse Nationals, Philadephia Warriors, San Francsico Warriors Buffalo Braves, Kansas City-Omaha Kings Kansas City Kings, Charlotte Hornets, Vancouver Grizzlies, San Diego Clippers, San Diego Rockets, Milwaukee Hawks, St Louis Hawks, Chicago Packers, Chicago Zepherys, Baltimore Bullets, Capital Bullets, Washington Bullets New Orleans Jazz, New York Nets,
  • MLB
    • Milwaukee Brewers (1901) Baltimore Orioles (1901-1902) New York Highlanders, Seattle Pilots, St Louis Browns, Both Washinton Senators, Philadelphia A's Kansas City A's Boston Braves, Milwaukee Braves, New York Giants, Brooklyn Dodgers. Have I missing any? Smith03 16:04, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Can I ask how many people who want two articles are not from Quebec or another part of Canada? It seems just by looking at people user pages that most of the supports of two pages are from CanadaSmith03 16:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm from the USA. I put the Canadian flags in my post for solidarity. Canadians are cool. Let me point out that the Expos fans are the experts on this issue. If they say that there should be a seperate page, then there should be a seperate page. (What is that, 4 reasons to keep the pages seperate now? Some people just won't be convinced no matter how much evidence there is.) Stop wasting your time trying to merge this page, a merge that is clearly both inappropriate and unwanted, and go improve something. - Pioneer-12 18:12, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Please take note at how Canadian fans have treated the move of the Grizzlies to Memphis Grizzlies. They have kept true to the redirect idea supported by all MLB, NFL and NBA articles. Kingturtle 19:06, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • The redirect idea was a bad idea to begin with, for all the reasons said by the many contributors to this page. It's time to follow the path of reason and justice and let go of our errant, confused ways of the past. Let us not be biased by old prejudices. This article, and this vote, will be the first step towards setting things right. Viva la Revolution! - Pioneer-12 20:06, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • Please don't confuse democracy with justice. Kingturtle 20:21, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Definite keep. Nice list above but the article is hear to stay. --LeoTheLion 16:17, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As for hockey I am looking at page 101 of the NHL official record book 2005 an it refers to Phoenix Coyotes franchise date as June 22 1979, than transferred to phx July 1 1996. So even the NHL list teams that have relocated by their orginial dateSmith03 17:03, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Except the Winnipeg Jets had an existence as a WHA team before they joined the NHL. The conceptual link and sense of continuity between the WHA Jets and the NHL Jets is much stronger than the link between the Jets and the Coyotes. Same with Quebec Nordiques. -- Curps 17:31, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Don't forget the Hartford Whalers. Same issue. --Madchester 17:40, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

my point is that the NHL doese not consider the coyotes and jets two different teams if it helps they include the Minnesota North Stars with the Dallas StarsSmith03 20:37, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Redirect. It should redirect as all of the other franchise moves do. The fact is, the Expos are NOT a defunct franchise. I think people are getting confused as to what defunct means. Example: The Milwaukee Braves are not defunct. All of their records and everything else transferred to Atlanta along with the team. Folding a team makes it defunct...not moving it. This is a long standing principle. I mean my favorite baseball team, the Milwaukee Brewers, spent one year in Seattle as the Pilots before moving to Milwaukee and yet all of the Pilots records are considered Brewers records. It's the same team. NOT defunct. --Woohookitty 18:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect. I think consistency is the most important thing. God knows Wikipedia is not internally consistent, but it is a goal that should be strived for. Given the precedent for other teams which have moved, I think that redirection is a no-brainer. Of course, the case could be made that there exists a precedent for keeping the pages of Canadian teams which are stolen by, er, moved to the US (e.g.
    Québec Nordiques). However, the Vancouver Grizzlies are redirected, so it appears that keeping separate pages applies to NHL teams alone. So be it. Keeping the page thus violates consistency. Now, if someone wants to incite a revolution, starting separate pages for all the moved teams, then sign me up. That's not what we're talking about here, however. And I say this as someone who will never, as long as I live, recognize the validity of the Washington Nationals. -- GreenLocust
    21:48, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

can we get a list of thoses who support keeping two pages who are not upset Expo fans. Just because more people support keeping two pages does not necessary make that the right choice for wikipedia. Is someway we can have neutral people ie people who are not baseball fans make decesion not only for the expos/nats but so we have a general rule that we use all the time when franchise relocate.Smith03 20:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyone who is part of the Wikipedia community should have an equal say on this issue, regardless of their background. You're just opening another can of worms by creating separate polls for "Expos fans" and "non-Expos fans"; what's to say that those results won't be skewed? --Madchester 21:06, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm pretty much agnostic as to the redirect/keep brouhaha; I see both sides as having valid points. However, I had a thought of my own. What about a "History of baseball in Montréal" article? This article could incorporate both the Expos and the Montreal Royals, the city's former minor-league team. The Nationals article could have a link to the new Montréal baseball history article for those who have a specific interest in Expos history. Dale Arnett 22:09, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect conditionally. Both sides have valid points, but we should be consistent. I think a good policy is redirect for name changes without a location change (Los Angeles/California/Anaheim angels) and city changes without name changes (Brooklyn/LA Dodgers). However, it may be acceptable to have distinct articles for teams which change both cities and names. Until Seattle Pilots, Washington Senators, St. Louis Browns, etc. have their own article, we should be consistent. However, I'd be in favor of NOT doing this, and using REDIRECTS in all three "franchise change" possibilities. --Locarno 22:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I like this idea. Though I vote for redirect, for the sake of consistency, emotionally I'm with the keepers on this one. It just makes me sad to think that typing in "Montreal Expos" will lead me to the page of the Washington Nationals abomination. Clearly, there a lot of people who feel similarly, and I think this idea is a good compromise between the two camps. Creating a new page for every name change (without a move) would be silly, but I support a separate page for a team identity which no longer exists. If it's done for the Expos, however, it should be done for the rest - all or none. If it can be done for the NHL, why not for MLB? -- GreenLocust 23:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. The Expos should have a separate article. Though they are the same franchise, for all purpose the Expos and Nationals are pretty much separate entities. I support this in the case of most such franchise moves — see
    (что??)
    23:22, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. I was asked to come in here and give my opinion and after reading the above arguments, here it is. If they hadn't changed fan-base, I would certainly vote to redirect (like LAA moving from Anaheim to Los Angeles market (even though not really, what a joke that is) or SD moving to Petco or MIL moving to the NL). I would like to see separate articles for NY Giants, Brooklyn Dodgers, Boston Braves, etc unless there isn't much info to put in them in which case they should be footnotes in SF, LAD, and ATL. I think there is enough substance in this case to warrant MON having its own article. I know this is not how the other article are currently done, but this is how I think they should be done. The reason my vote is weak is because I think all the stats/feats/retired numbers/etc should be on the Nats page even though they happened in Montreal, but I'm a little confused on that part. The Expos page should only contain a historical account of the era and it certainly should not have that snazzy franchise box. →Vik Reykja 23:38, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect. Ok they've moved to a new town and changed their name, but it's still the same franchise. To use an example from another sport Wimbledon F.C. redirects to Milton Keynes Dons F.C., both moves happened at a similar time, and both were controversial. Brooklyn Dodgers don't have their own article, so why should the Expos? Rje 00:23, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
    • I guess if we didn't have any articles for Japanese scientists, but only a list, then we could never create an article for a Japanese scientist, because "the other ones don't have it". - Pioneer-12 09:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • That is not the same thing. Wimbledon F.C. used to have an article. After their move, which was arguably more controversial than that of the Expos, this became a redirect to MK Dons. As for the Dodgers: their franchise still exists, and so does the Expos. Rje 15:21, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect - I am somewhat ignorant of baseball, but it seems to me that the article should be merged into the current team with a clear mention of what happened (they are still the same team, from what I've been told!). All the current info should be merged into the Washington Nationals article. - Ta bu shi da yu 00:40, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - if we have articles for minor league teams, we can have articles for major league franchises that have moved. Think of it as history part 1 and history part 2. dml 01:06, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect - if the Expos, poorly followed for the most part for much of the post Parc Jarry era in Montreal deserve a page, then certainly the beloved-by-millions Brooklyn Dodgers do, and our logic is that they do not. (However, a very close examination would seem to reveal that several relocated Arena football and old Amercian Basketball Association franchises have multiple pages, so we're not totally consistent here.) Rlquall 03:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • The ABA was troubled with franchises that went belly up. A defunct franchise is different than a franchise that moves. I am happy to look into any pages you want me to. Kingturtle 03:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Brooklyn Dodgers do deserve a page....
  • Redirect eventually - The main concern seems to be that 99% of the Nationals' franchise history is as the Montreal Expos. A decade or two from now, when things are more balanced and the "Expos" are unknown to a new generation of baseball fans, the Expos history should be folded into the Nationals history, since it IS the Nationals history. If Wikipedia had been founded in 1957, we'd be hearing a chorus of arguments in favor of keeping team articles at New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers rather than their new California locations. Those arguments would have had some weight then. Now, fifty years later, they make more sense as part of the franchise history incorporated into the article with the franchise's current name. I think it should be redirected now, but people's sentimental feelings seem to be prohibiting that. --Minesweeper 06:36, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - Different team, different fan base, different owners, different history. --Bastique 13:18, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Different fan base, yes; but same team, same owners, same history. I think this has been established in all the other comments. --Locarno 18:39, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect. Let's be consistent with the other Major League Baseball teams. Zzyzx11 | Talk 16:54, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. AFWIW, I think the Brooklyn Dodgers should be separate article. jengod 19:11, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. The Nats are not the same as the Expos, really. Iceberg3k 19:38, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. I would like to see an overall franchise page for every team and for franchises that have relocated, separate pages that contain the discrete histories of the team in each locale. I know this runs counter to the current precedent, but I think it better reflects the way fans think of their teams' histories without compromising the perspective of the owners and leagues. I think it should be done across all franchises in all sports. Veronique 22:02, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect - stay consistant. 70.49.26.37 19:14, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, and begin making separate pages for other teams that have moved. - SimonP 19:17, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
    • I am wondering: should we also create separate articles for cities that have changed names, such as
      Leningrad (redirects to Sain Petersburg)? Consistency would seem to dictate that we should.--Canoeguy81
      21:54, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you picked up the city and moved it a hundred miles or more, then yes. On the other hand, if you moved the whole city along with the team, then there would likely be no need for separate articles on the relocated team.
If you are wondering how it is possible to move an entire city, then a bit of research is in order. You see, according to popular mythology, it has already happened to the city of Boston.
- Pioneer-12 22:19, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No one, as far as I know, is suggesting creating separate articles for teams that have simply changed names but not moved (e.g. Anaheim Angels). Canoeguy81, your analogy is flawed. -- GreenLocust 01:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - precedent can and should be overturned when the situation warrants. The Expos are one of the first teams to move since the inception of wikipedia, and hence have a good article, unlike the dodgers and others. Many more people have an interest in it than in those older teams, hence the article. I guarantee that if wikipedia had been around 50 years ago those others would have articles as well. Peregrine981 12:13, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Redirect - It's the same franchise, the same team, the same owners, the same history. The Montreal Expos still exist, but now they're called the Washington Nationals. To not redirect is to steal the Nats history. Varitek 15:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: "the same owners" ? Please note that the Nats don't really have an owner yet. AFAIK, MLB bought out the last owners of the Expos (a local consortium) a few years back for a relocation. So, MLB is just a "caretaker" owner while a new owner is being recruited. -- PFHLai 16:22, 2005 May 1 (UTC)

Yes but the "owners" of the Expos in 04 are the same as the "owners" of Nats in 05. I was thinking the Expos played some of their games in SAn Juan the last 2 years, so they had a different fan base for those games, Should we also do an article like Montreal Expos of San Juan? Smith03 18:58, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

I think that it is too soon to be making this decision.

Right now the Nationals are claiming the history of the Expos, just as the Minnesota Twins claim the history of the first incarnation of the Washington Senators and the Texas Rangers claim the history of the second incarnation of the Washington Senators. But now that Washington has a team, you see people like Frank Howard, who played for the Senators, participating in Nationals events. I think that eventually, the fans in Washington, DC, will want the Senators history, and since the Twins and the Rangers are not really doing anything with the Senators history, I think that having a real, live baseball team in DC will eventually lead to the Washington franchise getting back the Senators' history, in a way that is different from franchises that existed for one year or in the 19th century. The DC fans undoubtedly care more about the Senators than about the Expos and I think the Expos history will eventually end up like Youppi!, the Expos mascot, the rights to which has been bought by a Canadian company. Let what was done in Montreal stay in Montreal, and what was done in Washington, DC, stay in Washington, DC. - --Mretalli 00:27, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - just to give you an idea of how the major MLB sites are dealing with this issue:
  1. MLB has left the Montreal Expos page blank - and all official Expos info is now housed by the MLB at the Washington Nationals page.
  2. http://www.montrealexpos.com/ forwards to the Washington Nationals Official page
  3. Baseball-reference has put all Expos info under the Nationals page
  4. Baseball-almanac now houses all Expos history on their Washington Nationals page - and Baseball-almanac created an automatic foward from http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/expo.shtml to http://baseball-almanac.com/teams/washington_nationals.shtml
  5. CBS Sportsline forwards their Expos page to their Washington Nationals page
  6. ESPN's old Expos URL says "404 - FILE NOT FOUND", and all Expos related info is on ESPN's Washington page
  7. Fox Sports has no team page for the Expos, and all Expos related info is on their Washington page
  8. Yahoo's old Expos URL forwards to their Nationals URL
  9. Canada.com's page on the Expos forwards to Canada.com's page on the Nationals; an old Canada.com URL for the Expos now just says "Error: Block Not Found"
  10. USA Today, strangely enough, still has an Expos page and another Expos page, but they list the 2005 Washington Nationals' results and schedule - data which is the same as the Nationals page

More to come, Kingturtle 00:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

This is the first time a MLB franchise has moved in over thirty years. In this age of the Internet, MLB can change the Expos records to the Nationals by changing one field and have it affect every field on the MLB.com site. The same is true of the other sites you mention. Shades of the Ministry of Truth in Orwell's 1984 - --Mretalli 21:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • What are you talking about Orwell here for? It has always been standard practice for MLB franchises to take with them their records and contracts. Is it Orwellian that the Nationals had spring training in the same facilities that the Expos did? Is it Orwellian that the Nationals use the same minor league affiliates that the Expos did? Is it Orwellian that the Baltimore Orioles' story involves the St. Louis Browns? I don't get this Orwell reference one bit. Kingturtle 22:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep

Wikipedia hasonly been around a short time. Certainly not long enough for fans of other franchises that have left cities to have encountered the problem. Montreal fans have the right to keep their own article about the history of their team. The Expos present a unique case in the history of pro baseball. The team was essentially ownerless, being owned by the league. The whole character of a franchise is altered by the change in its ownership. Exshpos-- 00:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • Actually, what you say is inaccurate. Wikipedia has been around long enough for fans from other franchises to encounter this situation. They chose to create a redirect and put the franchise history in the new article (see Charlotte Hornets and Vancouver Grizzlies). Kingturtle 01:05, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: tonight on ESPN, John Miller and Joe Morgan mentioned that John Patterson (of the Nationals) had the lowest ERA through his first 4 starts (0.98) in team history since Pedro Martinez in 1997 (when Martinez had a 0.31 ERA in his first 4 starts). Kingturtle 01:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep

To say there is enough content to support two pages is an understatement. The Montreal Expos existed as a successful Major League Baseball franchise for 36 seasons. The 2005 Washington Nationals are both a new team and a very very old team. Many people forget that the first incarnation of the Washington Senators, the team that eventually moved to Minnesota, was originally called the Washington Nationals. The Washington Nationals won the 1924 World Series. The name has also been traced as far back as the Civil War when the Washington Nationals baseball club was defeated by a team from the 71st New York Regiment in a game played on the Ellipse in Washington, DC on July 2, 1861. To categorize the 2005 Washington Nationals as a mere extension of the Montreal Expos is to deny both cities their unique places in the history of Baseball. Rubennyc 01:38, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • The Washington Nationals in this incarnation are the same team as the Expos. Therefore, this is this Washington Nationals' 37th season. The other Washington teams were different franchises. They have nothing to do with this Washington Nationals. Kingturtle 01:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • "this is this Washington Nationals' 37th season" -- What a charming and bizarre fiction. Two years ago, there was no such thing as the Washington nationals, and now they are in their 37th season. MLB may decide that, for its own record-keeping purposes, it is going to create fictions like this, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia has to parallel that. Professional sports teams exist because of fans. No fans - no money - no team. The Expos fans (and I am not one) are, for the most part, not the Nats' fans. )That was the problem - there weren't enough of them. If that continues in Washington, then the team will soon enough become the San Jose Chili Fingers or something like that. In the minds of most people, the two teams are separate entities. there is no harm then in having two articles that are linked to each other and that indicate the connection (including MLB's view of the situation) between the two teams. Wikipedia need not follow the dictates of MLB. Ground Zero 22:19, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • You don't understand. It is the same franchise. For example, the Yankees are in their 105th year - even though the first two years were played in BALTIMORE! The Twins are in their 105th year, even though the first 60 years were played in WASHINGTON! The Nats and the Expos are the same franchise - the same contracts - the same payrolls - the same records - the same retired numbers - the same minor league affiliates - the same spring training facility - the same retired numbers. And this is not some unique situation designed just for the Nat/Expos. The exact same carry over has happened dozens of times in MLB, starting over 100 years ago. Kingturtle 22:34, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • "You don't understand." Just becaue I don't agree with you, that doesn't mean I don't understand.
          • Different city, different country, different name, different fans, different mascot, different stadium, different ethno-linguistic cultural context.... Bet you won't be able to get poutine at the Nats' games. Or hear announcements dans les deux langues officielles. Ground Zero 22:46, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • As long as we're still voting, Keep. Yes, there is continuity, but when a team changes names and switches cities, the identity becomes significantly different enough to merit separate articles. The fans and team good will do not carry over to any great extent, and it isn't like this happens in MLB often enough that keeping separate articles becomes problematic. Obviously the Expos article will conclude by saying that the team became the Nationals, and the Nationals team will begin by saying the team was formerly the Expos, and I don't see why that's a problem. Furthermore, each article certainly has substantial independent content. Postdlf 03:02, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Resources concerned primarily by statistics have absolutely no reason to maintain an Expos page. The teams in Washington and Montréal are continuous. However, Wikipedia should be much more than a sports almanac listing team records. It should be a record of the culture of the organisation far beyond the simple legalistic definition of the organisation. Within a couple of years the Washington Nationals will have nothing to do with the Montréal Expos beyond the dusty old record books. I doubt if many Montréal fans will follow Washington particularly avidly. Nor will Washington fans look back fondly on the days in Montréal. In a strict sense their histories are the same, but in a human sense they are completely and totally different.

One example of this, the old Ottawa Senators of the early 20th century, including their records and Stanely Cups, are claimed by the modern franchise (at least they hang their banners) even though, in a legal sense, the two organisations have nothing whatsoever to do with one another. However, in a human way they do. Peregrine981 14:30, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

I mentioned on the Colorado Avalanche page on how the Quebec and Colorado incarnations of the team are the same franchise, but they share divergent histories. The Nordiques had an intense rivalry with the Canadiens in the 80's and 90's but that never carried over to the Avs. Likewise, the Avs and Wings had all those (literally) bloody playoff series, but that has nothing to do with the Nordiques whatsoever. --Madchester 17:49, 2005 May 2 (UTC)

STRONG KEEP FOR 50 YEARS. Then, maybe.

Spare me the personal attacks and one line throaway quips which are meaningless in this encyclopedia context. If you have a strong essay stating your position that would be welcome and in line with the policies of Wikipedia. If you cannot do so, please skip. Don't bother chopping up my essay into parsed segments and then twisting the meaning into your favor. This is not the John Stewart Show. Thank you.

Dear Wikipedians,

I have lived in both the Western U.S., Montreal and the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. I have worked for the Senate in the legal arena in D.C. I am privileged to have a unique view of this subject. More importantly, I would like too see Wikipedia become an encyclopedia of record.

The very nature of an encyclopedia is at issue here, in my humble opinion. I grew up a big fan of encyclopedia of various kinds.

1. The socio-economic-cultural reasons of each sports franchises are separate and distinct. Here, we have the 1st major professional international franchise in another language and culture. The city was so unique that Branch Rickey decided to send Jackie Robinson to Montreal in 1947 to break the colour barrier. 

Why? Bucky Rogers, Hall of Famer from the legendary Negro League, Kansas City Monarchs, said of the French city "it was cosmopolitan. He couldn't play in Alabama." To this day, Mrs. Robinson recalls the kindness of her white French neighbours, who were concerned over her pregancy. You can find transcripts of this.

2. Moreover, the rise and fall of the Expos have nothing to with the rise and falls of the Washington Senators either emotionally nor factually nor the Nationals in the future. D.C. has its own rich history of baseball. Montreal's date back to 1910 in minor league professional circles. Former Prime Minister Trudeau's father owned such a team.

3. This entry however plays pivotal role in the history of Major League Baseball during the turn of 21th century. The historical judgment of this commissioner has yet to be settled and judged well into the next 50 years. Think of the 1919 Black Sox and the creation of a new commissioner. Commissioner Selig's legacy is rife with contraversies from the 1994 stike, to the contraction of the small market teams, to a Congressionally "mandated" or "pressured" steroid policy which threatens to make home-run records statistically meaningless. The sports has fallen from America's pastime to maybe third pastime behind the NFL and maybe the NBA. The Expos is also part of his legacy, like it or not.

MLB wants to sell this franchise's assets. The Expos are now legally dissolved as a company or inactive. MLB's future sale of the Nationals to an owner and his deal with Peter Angelos are also part of that history. However, they are separate from its Montreal existence. Any redirection into Washington would curtail and snuff out any historical analysis of Selig's actions and his job as commissioner. This would make Wikipedia less useful for such an historical examination. It would, however, be very useful in finding a buyer with deep pockets. In other words the very nature of an encyclopedia would be in part sacrificed at the altar of greed and profit completely unrelated to Wikipedia.Italic text

For example, a month ago, I added a section about the 2003 "conflict of interests" between the Expos and its 29 owners. Did they really want the franchise to win the Wild Card over one of the non-MLB owned teams ? Now just a few days ago, the Philadelphia Inquirer had an article over the 2003 lack of September call-ups. MLB and the owners did not allow the calling up on minor leagues in its wild card race. This legacy is still being questioned. I like to think if a writer were to just glance at the Wikipedia, a writer would be inspired to examine an issue or two. Did the writer do so? We may never know. But the resource would be there for anyone either new or experienced in any field of endeavor without prejudice. The Vietnam War,ended in 1973, and is still being discussed and argued even as the sub rosa issue of the 2003 U.S. election ( recall "Swift Boat", CBS' and Bush 's war record in Vietnam).

4. MLB's position is clear. They have erased and expunged most if not all references to the Montreal franchise. If you go to RFK, there will be no Expos logos. The announcer, Elliott Price, who had some 14 years of experience and knowledge of the Expos was let go, the mascot replaced and the logo shelved. The staff replaced by and large. And news reports say the former Expos players, bless their souls, "have moved on".

A real encylopedia should remain free and independant and not react instinctively to short-term commercial or emotional interests. In this same vein, the Nationals should have a separate entry into the creation of its team and the successes and problems with such an association. Any such infringement of such analyses would also short-change that team. There should be entries on the Mayor's role, the burgeoning middle class and suburbs and the dissenting voices from the urban core. The tv deal etc...(BTW, I also enjoyed the time I lived in DC.) Information is power. That is the function of a real encyclopedia. The lack of information is control by those who have the means of creation, production and distribution. The very nature of the encylopedia is at stake here in my opinion. I don’t think dissenting Wikidpedians really has this in mind but the results are the same. There are whole governments and societies that run away from their pasts. Japan is running away from its World War II atrocities. While China is running away and commiting genocide of its minorities. In fact, North America wishes to forget the decimation of its aborinals. Wikipedia should not fall under this same historical amnesia. I'm not saying that MLB is a corrupt government but it is a private, self-interested, multi-billionaire dollar company or if you wish a "corporate welfare collector". And it is rife with inequities between small teams and big teams. Nevertheless, Wikipedia's independance from those market forces, MLB's "leadership" and its Commissioner Selig's plans or any other influences is crucial.Keeping this entry and mentioning the Nationals in this concluson is one important step towards that scholastic neutrality. 

Thank you for this forum and your time, mods of the Wikipedia and fellow Wikipedians.

Kingturtle 05:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • P.S. The FRANCHISE remains the same. All history about the FRANCHISE should now be placed under the new name of the FRANCHISE,
      Verizon Communications. Every single MLB franchise follows these rules. I am not convinced by one iota that the Expos deserve an exception. Kingturtle 06:15, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply
      ]
***The scoreboard***
Keep
  1. Curps
  2. Foodmarket
  3. Mo0
  4. Radiant
  5. Ground Zero
  6. Idont Havaname
  7. GrantNeufeld
  8. Spinboy
  9. Adam Bishop
  10. TenOfAllTrades
  11. Samaritan
  12. NormanEinstein
  13. PFHLai
  14. Vegaswikian
  15. kelvSYC
  16. Jayjg
  17. El_C
  18. Michaelk
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  20. Earl Andrew
  21. Flynnie
  22. Yuckfoo
  23. Capitalistroadster
  24. Madchester
  25. Pioneer-12
  26. Deathphoenix
  27. LeoTheLion
  28. Blankfaze
  29. Vikreykja
  30. dml (DavidLevinson)
  31. Bastique
  32. Trapper
  33. veronique
  34. iceburg3k
  35. jengod
  36. exshpos
  37. Rubennyc
  38. Postdlf
  39. BenjiFranklin
 Redirect
  1. Canoeguy81
  2. Kingturtle
  3. Firebug
  4. RickK
  5. Woohookitty
  6. Samuel J. Howard
  7. Smith03
  8. Wahoofive
  9. MisfitToys
  10. GreenLocust
  11. Locarno
  12. Ellsworth
  13. Rje
  14. Ta bu shi da yu
  15. Rlquall
  16. Minesweeper
  17. Zzyzx11
  18. mulad
  19. rlquall
  20. Varitek
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
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