Talk:COVID-19 misinformation: Difference between revisions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Two questions:

Primo Should the "lab leak" theory be treated and described as a:

• Minority, but scientific viewpoint; or
• A (political) conspiracy theory?

Secundo Should the "lab leak" theory have a section/sub-section separate from the other theories related to the WIV? 14:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Survey

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• Conspiracy theory and No The vast majority of actually MEDRS sources do not support this as anything more than an extremely unlikely hypothesis, and per
  WP:NOTNEWS-style details is already so described. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Conspiracy theory and no, per the !vote above. Short sections make for choppy reading, and there isn't enough to say to fill up a long one (without going into blow-by-blow notes of news reports and lengthy quotes of unremarkable public statements in a way that's unbecoming of an encyclopedia article).
  talk) 14:58, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• For
  WP:NPOV
  , of the two, conspiracy theory is preferable as it better aligns with high-quality sources. PMID 33586302, says:

There are also rumours that SARS‐CoV‐2 ‘leaked’ from a famous laboratory in Wuhan working on bat CoVs, the ancestral virus of SARSCoV‐2.

and references PMID 32102621, which says:

Currently, there are speculations, rumours and conspiracy theories that SARS-CoV-2 is of laboratory origin. Some people have alleged that the human SARS-CoV-2 was leaked directly from a laboratory in Wuhan ...

Of course this is not wholly incompatible with it also being a minority scientific view, but (as with - say -

talk) 15:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Alexbrn: The article you're citing is literally called "No credible evidence supporting claims of the laboratory engineering of SARS-CoV-2". Do you know the difference between engineering a virus like using CRISPR and serial passage mate? Feynstein (talk) 01:35, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Alexbrn: And I found this quote in the first article you cited."However, an independent forensic investigation is probably the only course of action to prove or disprove this speculation.". Confirmation bias much? Feynstein (talk) 23:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Ironically, if you actually read this Wikipedia article, you'll see that point is already covered: "In reality, definitively proving or disproving these narratives is a difficult and lengthy process, and it is likely closure of the topic will only be achieved by a thorough forensic investigation."

talk) 07:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Alexbrn: It's ironic because it's not misinformation. The sentence pretty much sums it up. Feynstein (talk) 20:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Conspiracy theory and No Not enough uncrappy sources that say the opposite. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Conspiracy theory and no Its pretty clear that the main proponents of the "lab leak" supposition have no actual expertise in virology, and engage in motivated reasoning, attempting to find "evidence" that proves their opinion correct and ignore that that doesn't. It's also clear that it has a conspiratorial and sinophobic aspect. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Minority, but scientific viewpoint and Yes. MEDRS are being clearly cherry-picked to bury the lab leak hypothesis. These are the reasons:

First we agreed on 6 MEDRS with the resulting analysis that: i) Most of them are very outdated (down to using April 30 2020 as a cutpoint for the review in one case); ii) The two that are not as outdated are: WHO (2020) and Hu et al (2020). Several RS sources point that WHO has contradicted itself when referring to the lab leak hypothesis, for example, when they rule it out one day, to be corrected the next day by Tedros, or two days later by the Embarek interview to Sciencemag. The one thing clear from WHO's treatment of the lab leak is that they are not willing to touch it even with a 10-feet pole, perhaps because of Chinese intimidation. Regarding Hu et al (2020), it has Shi Zheng-Li as a coauthor, which is a clear COI to refer or omit references to the lab leak hypothesis.

Second, there is no consensus on which aspects of the origin hypothesis require MEDRS and which doesn't. In my opinion, by default we can go with MEDRS for most aspects, and still report on the lab leak hypothesis citing top RS like Reuters, BBC, or NY Times.

Finally, there is no consensus on whether the distinction between man-made virus vs natural-origin virus that accidentally escaped the lab requires to be sourced by a MEDRS in order to exist. The distinction is very easy to understand by common sense, and MEDRS usually start mentioning in tandem whether viruses that originate in nature are naturally evolved vs evolved in serial passage or cell culture. You simply are not going to find a MEDRS that says "Well, this virus went through serial passage, so dang, I guess we can not call it a natural-origin virus anymore", because it is taken for granted that they are tandem notions. If you don't believe we can ask in Wikiproject virology. Forich (talk) 16:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 16:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Oh, I missed the Hakim reference in the previous discussion. It wasn't in the original list of 6 MEDRS. I apologize, and will look into it before commenting again, thanks for tipping me on the new source. Forich (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Virus origin", broadly construed, probably requires MEDRS. If we're not sure, always better to require MEDRS as these are the

WP:BESTSOURCES. Reporting on the lab leak is possible, as already done, without having an UNDUE section about it, or giving FALSEBALANCE to it. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Conspiracy theory and no per the established high quality peer-reviewed sources in medical journals in this article. It's an o brainer, since nobody can point of sources giving even an inkling of evidence in support of the conspiracy. See
  WP:FALSEBALANCE: Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Minority, but scientific viewpoint and Yes. I am a historian rather than a virologist, but it took me a matter of minutes to find the lab leak theory advanced by leading virologists in a reputable medical journal published by the French National Institute of Health and Medical Research (https://doi.org/10.1051/medsci/2020123). As I have mentioned elsewhere, the lead author of this article is a virologist from the École Normale Supérieure de Paris who is working specifically on gene therapy for COVID-19. The other authors are a professor of molecular evolution at the Université de Paris, a professor of biophysics at the Université de Paris, an expert on genome analysis and bioinformatics at the Institut Français de Bioinformatique, and a virologist at CNRS (French National Centre for Scientific Research). The latter author - Étienne Decroly - recently gave an excellent interview on this very subject to the CNRS news site (https://news.cnrs.fr/articles/the-origin-of-sars-cov-2-is-being-seriously-questioned). As for reputable journalistic sources, there is this opinion piece from the Washington Post editorial board (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/05/coronavirus-origins-mystery-china/). Laboratory escape is a legitimate scientific hypothesis, not a conspiracy theory, yet the two are currently conflated at this poorly written section on COVID-19 misinformation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Wuhan_lab_leak_story. For reasons that entirely escape me, there seems to be a great deal of cherry-picking going on here, as well as a concerted effort to marginalise legitimate contributions rather than attempting to address their substance. Rosenkreutzer (talk) 21:25, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reading through the original French language article, but I haven't found anything about the lab leak. If anything, this paper is debunking the lab manipulation theory, with statements such as "Dans le cas qui nous intéresse, le score supérieur à 1 indique que l’alignement obtenu est fortuit, et ne peut pas être considéré comme un indice d’homologie entre les séquences de VIH et de CoV." (the alignement between HIV and CoV is merely coincidental) or "Une seconde hypothèse, régulièrement formulée, est que ce virus pourrait résulter d’une recombinaison produite en laboratoire entre un virus de chauves-souris du type RaTG13 et un domaine RBD de haute affinité pour l’homme, cloné à partir du SARS-CoV. Cette hypothèse s’avère également incohérente avec les analyses phylogénétiques [...]" (the RaTG13/Sars-Cov lab manipulation theory is also incoherent). In short, this paper isn't even about the lab leak theory... What a disappointment. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: French Canadian here... if you kept reading you would have found this quote: "D’autres pensent qu’il pourrait s’agir d’un virus de chiroptère qui se serait adapté à d’autres espèces dans des modèles animaux élevés en laboratoire, dont il se serait ensuite échappé. Il est également envisageable que ce virus provienne d’une souche virale cultivée sur des cellules au laboratoire afin d’étudier son potentiel infectieux. Ce virus cultivé se serait progressivement « humanisé » (adapté à l’hôte humain) par sélection des virus les plus aptes à se propager dans ces conditions." Which basically states that some authors think it could have been passed. Feynstein (talk) 01:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[Oui je suis aussi québécois. Ceci-dit, back to the topic:] Except that half-paragraph is the sole in-depth mention of the lab leak hypothesis in the whole report (that, and a more pragmatic sentence: "La controverse s’est amplifiée, dans un contexte politique tendu où le président des États-Unis accusait la République populaire de Chine d’avoir laissé échapper le virus manipulé d’un laboratoire P4 à Wuhan…"; basically as I said at the WIV page: politics, not science). Note also how the language is rather speculative (unindentified others; ...), and no solid evidence is presented. This is the author doing his job as a scientist and explaining possible (however unlikely - there's no decision on the issue, at least from this author) hypothesis. Even if the lack of denial could be somehow misinterpreted as support for the theory, that would not override more recent sources such as the WHO investigation. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: I'm not using the lack of denial as a proof that it happened. I'm saying some articles are saying it's possible and the mainstream ones aren't dismissing it. By the way, I'm not up to date, did the WHO provide any evidence to dismiss it or are we supposed to take them to their word? Conflicts of interest would suggest a nuanced opinion is better. (P.S. please use a ping or a re next time. It's easier for me to answer that way. It's inconvenient to look at that wall of text in search for an answer, thanks) Feynstein (talk) 02:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Feynstein: No evidence against is not to be taken as evidence for something (see Russell's teapot) - no evidence is required to dismiss something; rather evidence is required to prove something. As for "did the WHO provide any evidence" - there's this interview with the WHO mission chief in Science. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: Hahaha they're really saying that? "But they kept open the possibility that the virus arrived in Wuhan on frozen food, a route promoted aggressively by Chinese media to suggest the virus was imported from elsewhere in the world." Wow, way to ruin their credibility. If it came from "frozen food" there would have been large outbreaks elsewhere. Scientists already ruled that out. Feynstein (talk) 02:29, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. 'Opinion pieces > academic sources' - this effectively makes the case for the "conspiracy theory" option. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is really important not to misrepresent credentials, I want to point out: Sallard is a grad student, so definitely not an expert; Halloy does bioinformatics on zebrafish collective behavior, which is very interesting and very unrelated to viral evolution and genetics; Casañe researches the evolution of marine and subterranean vertebrates, so may have applicable skills for phylogenetic analysis but is not an expert in viruses; Decroly has legitimate research background in virology; van Helden publishes mainly on molecular/metabolic modeling and sequence analysis tools and on transcriptional profiling, so probably has relevant skills for handling large datasets and interpreting genome information. JoelleJay (talk) 19:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Conspiracy theory and no as per
  WP:PSCI. --Moxy 22:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Conspiracy theory since reliable sources have not reported about investigations having discovered clear evidence of a lab leak in relation to COVID-19 yet it's been suggested and pushed (an RFC is unnecessary for this). I don't personally care about point 2 (depending on sources, some mention politics others not). —PaleoNeonate – 04:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Conspiracy theory and no. I have given this a lot of thought (
  horseshoe bats, possibly via an intermediary animal. (That's according to these best sources.) I look forward to the WHO's official report regarding their visit to China to hopefully clarify things further. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• A lab leak is a plausible scientific hypothesis according to the scientific community which is demonstrated by the quotes and sources provided in the section above. Also note that a priori the lab leak cannot be a conspiracy theory. The definition logically does not allow it. Definition of conspiracy theory is "a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event." An accidental leak by definition says nothing about intentional covert action by a dark sinister organization. --Guest2625 (talk) 11:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Except that "plausible" is not the word used by the scientific community as evidenced by the best sources, rather wording like "extremely unlikely", "massive online speculation", "pseudoscientific" and "conspiracy theory" is used. Wikipedia is bound to follow these for NPOV. As to a "leak" itself not being a conspiracy theory, that's a truism and a banal strawman argument. The conspiracy theory is about a certain sequence of events which "they" don't want out there.
  talk) 11:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The lab leak hypothesis is about a plausible mundane lab leak such as a maintenance worker not disposing of the lab waste correctly and then getting infected without him knowing. Or its about a lab researcher going to a bat cave in Yunnan province and collecting virus samples from bat feces and not realizing that they became infected. It is not about a nefarious organisation which is plotting and planning. --Guest2625 (talk) 13:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We do not do original research and try to match to dictionary definitions ourselves. We look at the

MOS:LABEL ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It is clear that the best and most authoritative sources we have say that a lab leak is a plausible scientific hypothesis. See the section above which provides the best sources and the relevant quotes which reflect the position of scientists on this topic from the top universities in the world. --Guest2625 (talk) 14:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In my experience when people say something is "clear", it's a sure sign it's not. Your cherried selection of lay sources are not the best. But Wikipedia does have established criteria which can be used to find the best sources (independent, scholarly, secondary, peer-reviewed, relevantly-published, well-reputed, etc.) By those criteria we have several truly excellent sources which give us the full picture. The recurrent problem with this topic is

talk) 14:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

ProcrastinatingReader, just a thought - is it conceivable that the very few sources that you deem to consider allowable here could possibly be wrong? It could be that other more worldly and less narrowly specialised and less homogenised sources might be more reliable when it comes to analysing and evaluating these sort of general and not specifically medical or scientific hypotheses? Perhaps the overly specialised sources have too few shades of grey in their vocabulary between black and white to reasonably evaluate these sort of concepts. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(

talk) 14:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexbrn

, you'll have explain your "joke", but your link seems to shoot your arguments defending the cherry-picking of primary sources in the foot, if not the heart:

• we can only report that which is verifiable from reliable and secondary sources, giving appropriate weight to the balance of informed opinion
• you'll have to wait until it's been reported in mainstream media or published in books from reputable publishing houses
• Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. What we do is find neutral ways of presenting them.

-- DeFacto (talk). 15:40, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. Now just take into account that in the field of biomedicine Wikipedia wants

talk) 15:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:MAM and ask what sources they would give us permission to use? -- DeFacto (talk). 16:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not going to repeat the points here, because this has been decided. Any assertions about the origin of the virus need a biomedical source. All these arguments that this is a "road transport" question (etc) are irrelevant. There are peripheral matters to the central topic which may not need MEDRS sourcing, but that is not the question at hand in this RfC.

talk) 16:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:BALANCE. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Yes, and since this is a

talk) 16:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexbrn, and there, I think, we have the root cause of the problem. Concluding from only what is found in those very specialised scientific academic sources that this is 'fringe' can only show it's 'fringe' as far as that niche of knowledge is concerned. That test would probably render a huge proportion of Wikipedia content as 'fringe'. We need to be more inclusive for a topic such as this, with massive worldwide interest and significance, and recognise that a wider range of disciplines also have a relevant contribution to make to this discussion. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:23, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

You're right about this being the root cause, but your prescription for a fix is wrong. In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. Thus the "lab leak" ideas are fringe ones. The root cause of the problem is that the

talk) 17:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I'd don't think anything about it. There are loads of shit articles on Wikipedia. Let's not add to the tally, eh?

talk) 18:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Alexbrn: I'm quoting you here: "want to edit against the grain of Wikipedia's established WP:PAGs". If we're talking like that about Bismuth even if it has been shady for 30 years, I'm pretty sure the precedent tells us it's conceivable to draft at least a paragraph on a minority scientific view about a the origin of a virus that emerged a year ago. Moreover, I have a pretty good MEDRS article here[3] that says you're wrong. I quoted it elsewhere, it's the French one. If you want I can quote it again in this discussion so that you're up to speed. If you want me to find shady stuff here that would require MEDRS just ask, I worked in a pharmacy in college there's plenty of them over the counter. Feynstein (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

WP:FRINGE and related PAGs and I think our job is less deciding how we should write, but how the content matches up with policies. It's a pretty politicised topic. Now, personally I think there is room for non-MEDRS sources on this particular matter. For example, a quality piece of investigative reporting from The New York Times or some such which interviews people at the lab, or obtains a leak, and reaches some conclusions on the basis of evidence I think would be DUE to include (and it would likely also be covered in MEDRS with a delay anyway). But that doesn't exist yet. What we have is conjecture, speculation and theorising. Does the theory sound 'plausible'? Maybe. But so does saying Bin Laden isn't dead & the US govt has him locked up somewhere. A good conspiracy theory is impossible or difficult/expensive to disprove. I think that applies here. There's no evidence in favour of the theory other than speculation. Most RS discussing it don't even say there's any evidence in support, they just say it's not completely ruled out / is 'possible'. But their opinion is that it's highly unlikely. The scientific consensus, via various journal articles, is natural origin via bats. The article should portray that, in my view. It's possible this could be wrong as a matter of fact, but we can re-decide when there's something in MEDRS in support. We follow the sources, not decide the truth. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Minority, but scientific viewpoint and Yes The following are two MEDRS secondary sources (not primary!) from a reputable scientific journal [4]. Both are peer reviewed. If anyone wants to challenge the journals they need to advocate for that somewhere else like
  WP:RS
  , not just dismiss them because they don't match their POV.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202000240

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202000091

I'll also note that this RFC was canvassed at both an ANI and on the Fringe Notice Board in violation of

WP:CANVASS

.

Alexbrn canvassed with a link at an ANI Fringe Notice Board [5]

ProcrastinatingReader canvassed with a link on the Fringe Notice Board ANI.[6]

Shameful. Dinglelingy (talk) 14:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC) — Dinglelingy (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Those sources are weak. We need review articles (or better) per

talk) 14:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Fixed. Just as shameful. We need MEDRS which they are, you're telling fibs now.Dinglelingy (talk) 15:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You should read Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification before making such accusations. As an aside, when one is worried about notification to the administrators' noticeboard, and/or to the fringe NB, you can be sure the editor is probably up to no good. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Try Wikipedia:Canvassing#InAppropriate_notification, Vote-stacking, campaigning, biased. Nice try though. You are not an admin here, quit pretending you are. Dinglelingy (talk) 15:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you sincerely think this is canvassing, this RfC is not the place for this. You can try your luck at

WP:BOOMERANG. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs

) 15:35, 18 February 2021

I'm well aware of the rules. A little advice, you may want to refresh your understanding of

WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. [7]. Dinglelingy (talk) 16:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

If you have any further accusations please start an ANI thread instead of venting heat at this RfC. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:20, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're still pushing those two primary non-MEDRS articles, even after so many people have explained why they are not appropriate for SCI/MED? It should be immediately apparent that those authors do not provide expert perspectives on viral evolution or genetics and therefore wouldn't be DUE even if they were otherwise MEDRS-compliant. How valid can your scientific opinion be if you can't find anyone with any credentials whatsoever to coauthor with you? Especially if 1) your coauthor is a dude with an MBA and zero science background rather than, you know, the scientist PI whose lab you're in? Or 2) you form a shell company to list as your "institutional affiliation" because you're retired and your only coauthor is your blogger insert applicable descriptor from link son who openly admits he hasn't studied biology since high school? JoelleJay (talk) 19:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I’m not understanding why it can’t be both, the question asked appears to be a false dichotomy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Conspiracy theory and no.
  Alexbrn give a good recap here. I've opined substantially in other venues so won't repeat here. JoelleJay (talk) 19:56, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Minority and yes. It's clearly stated in the main MEDRS paper that even though it's unlikely, serial passage could have happened in the lab. The littérature rightly dismisses any bioweapon claim, but not the lab incident theory. I'm sorry everyone it's not a conspiracy theory. I suggest editors read this article [8] by Michael Shermer in Scientific American to help them decide if it is or not. If you can use this article to debunk the hypothesis I'll be glad to discuss it under here. Feynstein (talk) 01:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Except it is not for us editors to decide whether the story is "true", "untrue" or whatever (that piece is 10 years old and naturally does not mention COVID once, so any inferences from it would be

WP:SYNTH. What we do is reflect what reliable sources (in this case, even more stringently MEDRS) say. They say the theory came out of a context of politically motivated accusation, is extremely unlikely, that there is not a shred of evidence, ... So we say that, not the FALSEBALANCE option that it is an equally valid but minority view. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:09, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@RandomCanadian: Except it's precisely what this RfC is about isn't it? Editors dismissing it as a conspiracy theory are precisely deciding it's not true. It's demonstrably not one with multiple RS sources. Shermer's article was only for rhetorical purposes, but it's still very handy to read, you should try it. Feynstein (talk) 02:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Feynstein: This RfC is about some users trying to legitimise this because it's not disproven, and then wanting to have a larger section to entertain their particular view about it (and other editors having to debunk the same debunked points multiple times all over again), as was formerly the case at WIV (where nearly half the article was taken up with that kind of thing), before that was trimmed for the same reasons. The fact that most high-quality medical sources dismiss this as extremely unlikely is telling all you need to know. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 04:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: Yes, but then why is the question minority viewpoint vs political conspiracy theory? Extremely unlikely doesn't come across to me as anything close to a conspiracy theory. And there are primary RS that have positive arguments for it. We're really not into chemtrail territory here. I can understand anyone answering no to the second question tough, it is a minority view and I don't think it deserves anything else than a paragraph detailing the RS we have on the subject. Why did you answer conspiracy theory when you know that the difference between chemtrails and this is multiple orders of magnitude of credibility? There's absolutely no RS positive arguments for chemtrails or flat earth. And we also have RS saying the Chinese conspiracy theory of frozen food is false. Why would the WHO promote that? We also have tons on RS saying the Chinese government hid stuff like human to human transmission and prohibited scientists from releasing any paper, genome or samples to the rest of the world. It's really not that much a stretch of the mind to think they would have, and probably still would, be hiding evidence of a lab leak. The best answer in my opinion would then be minority and no? Having one paragraph or subsection on the subject would be the logical way to go. We can even reference two MEDRSs that talk about serial passage. Feynstein (talk) 17:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The WHO referencing the "all hypotheses are still on the table" is just sign that this is also [mostly] a political issue. We ought not to mix the political aspect with the scientific aspect - reporting on the politicians who promoted this misinformation can be done separately of reporting on evidence or lack thereof (simply because this is more likely than some of the wilder theories you mention does not, or at least should not influence our judgement). Two (or ten) "primary RS" are not enough per MEDRS, we need better sources (secondary reviews) which describe this as something more than unfounded speculation. Re. "frozen food": the scientist makes a very clear distinction that, in 2019 (when the outbreak started), there was no possible route of introduction:

But that’s happening in 2020, at a time where the virus is widely circulating in the world, where there are multiple outbreaks in food factories around the world. It is probably an extremely rare event; we can see that from only a few dozen positive findings in China, out of 1.4 million samples taken so far. It’s potentially possible, so it’s worth exploring. But we have to separate the situation in 2020 with imported goods in China, and the situation in 2019, where that was not a possible route of introduction. There were no widespread outbreaks of COVID-19 in food factories around the world.

So what is said is that it is an interesting thing to investigate, in the context of global transmission (2020), but not in the context of virus origin (2019). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: I'll refer to my previous quote: "But they kept open the possibility that the virus arrived in Wuhan on frozen food, a route promoted aggressively by Chinese media to suggest the virus was imported from elsewhere in the world.". From the article you referenced yesterday that dismissed the lab leak hypothesis. They're specifically talking about Wuhan, don't try to slither away from it by talking about the global pandemic situation. It's the WHO that said that, ruining their credibility. If they want to find the zoonotic origin, fine, but don't play favoritism for other "political conspiracy theories" if they really are "conspiracy theories". This is MERDRS btw [9]. And they separate the theories about a synthetic virus and a serial passage virus "En l’absence d’éléments probants concernant le dernier intermédiaire animal avant la contamination humaine, certains auteurs suggèrent que ce virus pourrait avoir été fabriqué dans un laboratoire (origine synthétique). Mais ces assertions ont été réfutées par de nombreux spécialistes, notamment sur la base d’études phylogénétiques qui suggèrent deux scénarios prépondérants pour expliquer l’origine du SARS-CoV-2 : (1) l’adaptation chez un animal hôte avant le transfert zoonotique, ou (2) l’adaptation chez l’homme après le transfert zoonotique [11, 17, 18, 22]. D’autres pensent qu’il pourrait s’agir d’un virus de chiroptère qui se serait adapté à d’autres espèces dans des modèles animaux élevés en laboratoire, dont il se serait ensuite échappé. Il est également envisageable que ce virus provienne d’une souche virale cultivée sur des cellules au laboratoire afin d’étudier son potentiel infectieux. Ce virus cultivé se serait progressivement « humanisé » (adapté à l’hôte humain) par sélection des virus les plus aptes à se propager dans ces conditions. Quel que soit le mécanisme présidant à son apparition, il est important de comprendre comment ce virus a passé la barrière d’espèce et est devenu hautement transmissible d’homme à homme, cela afin de se prémunir de nouvelles émergences [23].". It can't be more clear. Feynstein (talk) 18:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Feynstein: We already discussed that source earlier, see my previous comments. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:09, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: Yeah and I think you missed it: "Il est également envisageable que ce virus provienne d’une souche virale cultivée sur des cellules au laboratoire afin d’étudier son potentiel infectieux. Ce virus cultivé se serait progressivement « humanisé » (adapté à l’hôte humain) par sélection des virus les plus aptes à se propager dans ces conditions.". This is positive proof, not a lack of negative proof. Feynstein (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Feynstein: For our English speaking friends: "Il est également envisageable" means "It is also possible to consider [the possibility that the virus originates from ...]" - id es, speculation, not "positive proof". I already addressed that report previously, see my comment beginning with "[Oui je suis aussi québécois. Ceci-dit, back to the topic:]". No point going in circles, if there's nothing new to add then it is probably time for us to let the debate continue with new interventions by other users. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Minority, abstain. [10] is enough for me to say it's not entirely a conspiracy theory. I don't have enough of a clue to know if it's reasonable to have a section on this. If we did have one, it should be a fairly short paragraph--the sourcing is too thin to do more. Hobit (talk) 11:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• conspiracy theory and no (until there is something solid to the contrary) Minority, abstain--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ozzie10aaaa, is this solid?

• https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/07/health/coronavirus-lab-leak-who.html
• https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/07/science/virus-inquiries-pandemic-origins.html

Tinybubi (talk) 09:36, 8 April 2021 (UTC) — Tinybubi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

it is getting interesting...time will tell--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ozzie10aaaa: Ignore the SPA, but those sources are not MEDRS. The letter referred to in the NYT is from Jamie Metzl. Maybe an expert about geopolitics, but he has no relevant expertise here (except for highlighting the political aspect, which is already obvious). And the deliberate misinterpretation of "requires more investigation" by lab leak proponents flies in the face of statements like "He said that over all, on the question of viral origins, “I’m really not convinced that it came from a lab, but there’s not enough investigation.”" In fact, much of the NYT article is giving the opinion of scientists who generally agree with the report's conclusions, with some limitations, but nothing of the political nonsense about the WHO seen in places like the RSN post or further below here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:28, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Minority viewpoint, and this RfC is silly. There have been several discussions about this over a variety of noticeboards, talk pages, MfDs, et cetera over the course of months, and I'd say most reasonable people have gotten sick of it by now (I certainly have); the only people left are people who care to an extreme degree about this. I (and others) certainly do not feel up to the task of copy-pasting the exact same posts into a dozen different discussions about the exact same thing for weeks on end, so I guess the consensus is probably going to be that every fact that reliable sources don't consense on is automatically a conspiracy theory; I will say again, for the record, that this is a dangerous oversimplification of how scientific consensus works. Wikipedia's job is not to be an
  authoritative decisionmaker on controversies where reliable sources have not reached consensus. jp×g 22:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Minority viewpoint, concur with JPxG that this RfC is a poor idea. The lab leak perspective does not deserve undue weight or recognition in the article -- hence I abstain from the question of whether it should have a section, which would potentially be undue weight -- but similarly does not deserve a hardline position on whether it's a conspiracy theory at this point in the process. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 00:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• conspiracy theory and no. There is a minority for the lab leak theory, but it is so minor that any mention would be undue and a false balance. The conspiracy theory around the idea is notable, which give the false idea that the minority view is notable. In time this conspiracy theory will just be remembered as one amongst many, and the minority view will be completely forgotten. 92.3.131.156 (talk) 23:09, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Minority, but scientific viewpoint and Yes. I also agree with DeFacto and Slatersteven that this RFC doesn't address the issue. Politico published an article yesterday explaining the Covid lab origin hypothesis in great detail. RebeccaofLondon (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2021 (UTC) — RebeccaofLondon (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• No and no. This is simply something unknown. A lot of things are unknown. One might argue this is a "minority view" based on recent publications [11], i.e. a letter sent by a group of scientists to WHO, etc. But there is a problem: these scientists do NOT claim that it was leaked from the lab. They only say it should be independently investigated becuase WHO investigators failed their mission, obviously due to the information blockout by the Chinese government. My very best wishes (talk) 17:54, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Not conspiracy theory - Echoing
  WP:WEASEL language and say "a small number of sources have suggested....". NickCT (talk) 20:37, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Conspiracy theories can be "well-defined and widely accepted". --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:29, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Hob Gadling: Granted that "conspiracy theory" can have different definitions, but a lot of those definitions include some kind of rejection of the common narrative (e.g. this one). Hence, once something is "widely accepted", it by definition can't be a conspiracy theory. NickCT (talk) 14:59, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I actually misread what you wrote. I thought you had written that the lab leak idea was a "well-defined and widely accepted origin story for COVID", so my response did not fit. Nevertheless, a claim that people conspired to hide a lab leak is a conspiracy theory. There does not need to be one widely accepted exact explanation in order for some weird story to be a CT, it can be a general idea too. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Hob Gadling: - Ok. Well maybe we need to define the "lab leak theory" a little better. My understanding is that theory largely pertains to the purported origin of the virus. Not necessarily any subsequent conspiracy to hide the origin. NickCT (talk) 15:28, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I do not think this is a conspiracy theory for a couple of reasons. First of all, an accidental leakage of a pathogen from a lab does not imply conspiracy or any evil intention. A conspiracy to hide the fact? There is no doubt that the Chinese government is hiding something (simply based on their information blockades, disinformation campaign, preventing access to WHO team, etc.). We just do not know what they hide exactly. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Largely agree w/ My very best wishes's comments. Even if members of the Chinese government are "conspiring" to hide a lab leak, I still don't think I'd call that a "conspiracy theory". Governments conspire to hide things all the time. Saying something like "I think the Air Force is covering up details of a new jet fighter", isn't really a conspiracy theory. NickCT (talk) 17:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• neither and Yes. It's not really a conspiracy theory or a minority scientific opinion. It's a hypothesis mostly based on the outbreak being near a lab which was studying similar viruses and considering it is more common sense than a conspiracy or science. Given the WHO have looked into it and said probably not and also that the US government have also commented on it, both the Trump and Biden administrations, I think it would be reasonable to have a section on the 'the possibility of a laboratory-related incident' with the information that the WHO had said it was unlikely rather than regarding all discussion as to be censored. The term 'the possibility of a laboratory-related incident" is from the WHO press conference where they list it as one of four hypotheses considered. (https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/covid-19-virtual-press-conference-transcript---9-february-2021)

I think calling the lab hypothesis a conspiracy theory may deviate from 'neutral point of view (NPOV)' given both the WHO and State Department consider it as a real possibility rather than conspiracy theory. A recent update on the State Dept stuff was

>“There wasn’t significant or meaningful disagreement regarding the information presented in the fact sheet,” the senior State Department official said. “No one is disputing the information, the fact that these data points exist, the fact that they are accurate. Where there was some discomfort was that [the Trump administration] put spin on the ball.” (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/09/biden-administration-confirms-some-trump-wuhan-lab-claims/)

Tim333 (talk) 10:35, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Political conspiracy theory and no we should not have sections on this theory and/or the WIV on articles related to COVID, except in articles that are specifically dedicated to misinformation, disinformation, or conspiracies. I've dozens on scientific journal articles on coronavirus biology — published either before or after this most recent outbreak — and all discuss high coronavirus lineage diversity, frequent spillovers, and the likelihood of another epidemic occurring for natural reasons as a result. Papers published in the last year consider the virus to have a natural origin. -Darouet (talk) 15:54, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Darouet, you seem to be confusing the lab-leak hypothesis being discussed here (which is one of only four hypotheses, all only concerned with a virus of natural origin, still on the WHO's table) with the long since refuted theory that the virus was engineered by humans. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:33, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is a serious misunderstanding here. The accidental leak hypothesis assumes that the virus is of natural origin. It just was leaked from a lab, just as in many other pathogen leakage accidents that

did did happen as a matter of fact. This can not be proven or disproven by analysing the evolutionary history or biology of the virus. If it could, this question would be already closed. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

No, I'm not misunderstanding this at all, and if you think so, you're confused about what most people are voting about on this RfC. When I write coronavirus lineage diversity, frequent spillovers, and the likelihood of another epidemic occurring for natural reasons as a result, that should indicate to you that I mean the "lab leak" (not engineering) idea is also misinformation. -Darouet (talk) 17:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• But then this is just an invalid RfC. What all these people are voting for? RfC asks: "Should the "lab leak" theory be treated and described as a...". But what is the "lab leak"? This seems to be understood differently. For example, this ref say: Some people have alleged that SARS‐CoV‐2 is of laboratory origin and the result of deliberate genetic manipulation. According to these conspiracy theories, a novel virus is a human‐made biological weapon, not the result of natural evolution and selection. OK, this is one of claims. Then it say: SARS‐CoV‐2 is said to be engineered by the Chinese government with economic or political background and agenda. This is different. Then it say There are also rumours that SARS‐CoV‐2 ‘leaked’ from a famous laboratory in Wuhan working on bat CoVs, the ancestral virus of SARS‐CoV‐2". This is something else. My very best wishes (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: personally, I would assume that the "lab leak" idea does not imply engineering at all. The idea proposes that the the WIV had SARS-CoV-2 in its lab. It might have been sampled from a natural population and unchanged. But then the virus leaked, perhaps by infecting a researcher. What I'm telling you is that most scientists view this idea - that involves no engineering at all - as a politically motivated conspiracy theory that's wholly at odds with available evidence. -Darouet (talk) 23:34, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What evidence? There is no any scientific evidence it did not leak from a lab, just as there is no evidence it leaked from the lab. Science can not answer if something was or was not physically present in a lab. This is a question for a police-style investigation. The souce population of bats is unknown. The intermediate host (if any) is unknown. The patien zero is unknown. Hence there are many recent publications, such as this arricle in WaPo [12]. My very best wishes (talk) 04:11, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is the close genetic proximity of SARS-CoV-2 to wild coronaviruses in the region; the dozens or hundreds of CoV strains that have been characterized; the extraordinary number of bats that live throughout SE Asia and carry CoVs with them; the high CoV seroprevalence among people living near the bats; the high rate of zoonosis by CoVs in SE Asia and throughout the rest of the world; the two other SARS epidemics that have occurred recently; warnings by many CoV scientists that another outbreak was bound to happen again soon. Add to these the absence of the SARS-CoV-2 strain in the WIV or other institutes before the outbreak. All these facts are known to virologists and epidemiologists, the vast majority of whom would agree with virologist Vincent Racaniello in describing the lab leak conspiracy theory as "science fiction."

Sure, it's possible for anyone to propose a series of highly unlikely events — a "lab leak" is a more likely source for SARS-CoV-2 than a meteorite origin, but both are highly implausible compared to zoonisis — and to declare that no evidence exists to contradict them. However, there are a truly infinite number of false hypotheses to explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2, if your only criteria is that the hypotheses cannot be falsified. Understanding the ecology of coronaviruses in nature — and this involves plenty of data and evidence — will help you understand why scientists consider this idea to be science fiction. -Darouet (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Conspiracy theory and no. I saw a note about this at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine — Preceding unsigned comment added by ApproximateLand (talk • contribs)
• Minority, but scientific viewpoint since it’s scientifically possible and has been hypothesized or not escluded by serious scientists. Conspiracy theory is instead something impossible and that no serious expert would consider. Even experts who disagree call it “unlikely”, but that’s very different from a conspiracy theory. It’s still a valid scientific hypothesis, even if it turns out to be wrong. It cannot by definition be called a conspiracy theory Eccekevin (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Minority viewpoint and yes. As of yesterday (after the official report was released), the Director General of the WHO has come out on record saying: “Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation,”^[3]. Nothing about it being a conspiracy theory or even misinformation. If the head of the world organization responsible for investigating the origins has deemed it worthy of a follow-up, and if the WHO is considered a reliable source (which has been repeatedly stated in this talk page), this should be an open and shut case.CommercialB (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Minority viewpoint that is significant enough that yes, it should have a dedicated subsection. Given that the evidence is only pointing in another direction, but has not conclusively proved this isn't the case, it is not a conspiracy theory. There is a valid scientific pathway to get to lab leak as the source, and even though there's equally many or more pathways to get to the conclusion that it was from animals, neither has been proven correct or incorrect as of yet. Thus, it's not a conspiracy by definition. Conspiracies are not defined by "how likely they are" - they're defined by misinterpreting facts or outright fabrication to support their views. If and when a conclusive source is proven, then continuing to spread this theory would be a conspiracy. Until then, it is being used for misinformation (saying that a conclusive source has been found as a lab leak, for example), but it is not a conspiracy. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• Opening an RfC so the endless I-dont-hear-it-is can come to an end. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think this will settle it, as there are different "lab leak" theories, including odd variants being pushed on Wikipedia which don't seem to appear in sources. Also some sources seem to use multiple terms to describe the lab leak including (yes) "conspiracy theory" but also "rumours" and "misinformation".
  talk) 14:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Well, at least this will give an enforceable consensus about it, and it will be that much harder for the POV-pushers to keep repeating the same rebutted arguments all over again under different usernames... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• We already had a conclusive discussion on this in early last year (which I am unable to find at the moment), so I cant imagine this concensus holding for more than 8 months. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• That previous RfC is here.
  talk) 16:33, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

That was in the main topic article (where the lab leak is entirely off topic, unlike here). Time goes on and things don't change: "The only WP:MEDRS which discusses this speculative theory find "that the available data argue overwhelmingly against any scientific misconduct or negligence".[1]"; "Politically-motivated narratives about the virus origin are completely divorced from hypotheses developed by scientists reporting in WP:MEDRS"; "Discussion of the origins of the pandemic should be based on WP:MEDRS sources."... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:46, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• This RfC does not address the issue we have. The issue is the conflation of the legitimate hypothesis that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab, the hypothesis that currently sits, along with just three other hypotheses on the WHO table, with some arbitrary and non-specific lab leak conspiracy theories, that we should be getting comments on. Should we be doing that, as we currently are, or should we separate them and treat the conspiracy theoris as such, and the hypothesis with the weight and voracity that its widespread coverage in the media and in the literature deserves. This RfC does not address that issue at all, it offers two closed questions, neither of which is relevant, and whichever get's the most support is irrelevant to the issue at hand. I suggest scrapping this RfC and getting agreement on the wording for a new one, before then opening it. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)‎[reply]

• You have been repeatedly asked to provide a source setting out your "natural virus languishing in a lab" leak idea, but have not done so. I have concluded the story is your own original one. The "conflation" in is the sources and Wikipedia just reflects that properly rather then embarking on original research, which would be prohibited by policy.
  talk) 16:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Alexbrn, we saw the sources and you dismissed them as not being MEDRS compliant, as if that has any weight wrt the specifics here. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

"The issue is the conflation of the legitimate hypothesis that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab" No, it might maybe be "legitimate", but it's very WP:FRINGE. The real issue is editors attempting to push that theory as something equally valid (based on poor sources) to the scientific consensus, which is actually, very clearly, per recent WHO clarifications and the vast majority of MEDRS, that COVID does not come from the WIV. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:49, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RandomCanadian, and this RfC does not cover it either way, so needs starting again. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does not cover it explicitly, because it is not a legitimate concern, it is one which you keep pushing without evidence, as mentioned by both me and Alexbrn. In any case, even if it does not cover it explicitly, it is implicitly included in the first question. If you think you have a case, do so by giving us direct and non-cherrypicked quotes from

WP:SYNTH from the popular press. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

At this stage I'd be interested even to see a non-

talk) 17:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexbrn, imagine for a moment that a member of a lab's staff or a delivery to it or animals in transit came in with a virus, or viruses being studied in there evolved, and then their biosecurity system failed in some way. Is that, for example, beyond the realms of possibility? That'd be the sort of thing the WHO would want to look at, if they had the power and the resources to do it. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:30, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

If you want to include that in the article, and assuming somehow it's not just your wild speculation, then ^[citation needed] applies... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:31, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RandomCanadian, and the rest is history! Can you remind us what happens then, and how quickly it is whisked away? What's the record, sub-30 seconds I wouldn't wonder. (clue: MEDRS) -- DeFacto (talk). 17:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RandomCanadian, if the RfC does not cover it it will not solve the issue, will it? And whether you or MEDRS think it is a legitimate concern, or not, is totally irrelevant. The RfC should decide if there is a case to cover in due detail the widely publicised and commented upon hypothesis that the WHO have kept on the table. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And which hypothesis is that, that is not already included in the RfC? Virus bio-engineered? Already in article. Virus leaked from lab? The point of this RfC. Sources on the topic that are not just the popular press reporting on politics? Nowhere to be seen. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*I agree with DeFacto that this RFC does not address the real issue, so I would suggest rewording it and posting it again.

There is a similar discussion on the talk page of

Park3r, Guest2625, Horse Eye's Back and My very best wishes

support the inclusion of the Biden administration's statements dichotomising the lab leak hypothesis from conspiracy theories.

There is are also a long discussion on the talk page of the Wuhan Institute of Virology where Feynstein makes many good points delineating several points of divergence between the lab leak hypothesis and bioweapons conspiracy theories.

gain of function research

, so I assume he not referring to that one as "odd" or unsourced, as that is the main variant that many editors here and on other pages are concerned about.

TacticalTweaker (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC) Blocked sock editing in violation of their topic ban. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's how conspiracy theories work: taking convenient bits here and there and connecting them in a way to speculate and suggest conclusions despite the lack of evidence. Investigations can indeed explore all needed aspects but unless those demonstrate clear evidence that a lab leak occurred the narratives pushed about it remain misinformation and meet

WP:FALSEBALANCE of opinions and speculation, but should instead present the current consensus. Many reliable sources discuss these claims as misinformation and document the spread of rumors by conspiracy theorists, thus it should be presented as such... —PaleoNeonate – 03:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

To be strictly accurate, the misinformation about the WIV is a melange of conspiracy theory and unfounded speculation (per the best sources). So this is what we say:

Currently, there are some fictitious and pseudoscientific claims as well as conspiracy theories associated with the Covid‐19 pandemic ...

(Hakim 2021)

Some of the lab leak scenarios fall more into the pseudoscientific, fictional category than the outright "conspiracy theory" category, as some of the claims on this very Talk page illustrate.

(Add) though I notice

talk) 08:09, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Alexbrn: there is nothing disruptive about asking for a source when the sentence containing that phrase is totally unsourced. There are four sources on the following sentence, is it one of them? If it is sourced, then why not make it easier for the reader to find it. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

[13] The tone of the two sentences in the diff could use some work. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 08:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@Novem Linguae: I think for conspiracy theorists, "believer" is the correct/neutral term as it is an article of faith for them. From the conclusion of the Hakim source:

The believers of conspiracy will continuously search for ‘scientific evidence’ to defend their claims that SARS‐CoV‐2 is a human‐made virus, such as the case with an HIV‐1 bioRxiv paper that has been retracted. On the other side, however, the believers of conspiracy theories criticise sciences when scientific evidence argues against their beliefs.

talk) 08:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexbrn, thanks for the feedback. Here's my concerns. The first sentence has an essay tone, like it's building up to some subjective conclusion. The second sentence in the diff (farther down) uses strong words like "believer" and "dedicated". Even if the source says that, it seems like an opinion to me, and I'd argue that tone is too strong for Wikivoice. No response necessary unless you want to, I don't want to spend too much time on this minor issue. But I did want to articulate my concerns. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Problem is it can be both.Slatersteven (talk) 14:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’m with Slatersteven, it can be both. Forcing it into a false binary choice makes the RfC useless. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It can be both, but

WP:NPOV means it probably shouldn't be described as such in the article (especially if MEDRS overwhelmingly reject/describe it as some degree of unlikely). Anyway, there's the other question which is also pertinent for purposes of UNDUE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It seems to me, from the best RS, some variants of the "lab leak" story are conspiracy theory, others fall more into the category of "unfounded speculation". Hence our current opening of this section is "Conspiracy theories and unfounded speculation have gained popularity during the pandemic ...".

talk) 16:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

No NPOV does not mean that, it means we give a nuanced view. We call should include the parts that are called by RS misinformation as misinformation.Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV would seem to be nearly the opposite, if it can be both then we must express both to the extent we find them in WP:RS. Also MEDRS does not apply to the political and communications aspects of the claims (which this page is primarily about), only the biomedical ones (which this page is *not* about, there should be no unique biomedical claims here). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd like to say that this article[14] would actually fall in the MEDRS category as it is secondary. All the arguments i've seen against it are based on the authors credentials and I'm allergic to that. Some editors think they can dismiss papers because they think they know enough about the authors. Feynstein (talk) 01:52, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You might "like" to say it, but you'd be wrong. The publisher/PUBMED categorize it as a "comparative study".
  talk) 18:18, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• @
  Alexbrn: In French it says "synthèse" (or summary of research), which would be a secondary article. Can you explain to me how it's a comparative study and what's about them specifically that's not MEDRS. When you read it, it actually reads like a review. Looks to me like you picked this argument out of a hat mate. Feynstein (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• See PMID 32773024.
  talk) 20:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@

Alexbrn: I saw that. It doesn't make any sense. Maybe PubMed can't speak French? Or they mixed it up? I'll contact them tomorrow to see if it's a mistake. It's written "synthèse" in the original article. Anyhow, literally a tag on a paper from a website other than the original publisher shouldn't be used to completely dismiss the article. And what I've asked you is actually: if it's a comparative study, which it is demonstrably not, why isn't it MEDRS? Because it's primary? They literally cite multiple authors throughout the paper like a litterature review. You hiding behind what is probably a tagging mistake is not an argument. Do you also think it's a comparative study? Aside from the tag can you demonstrate that? It looks a bit shallow to me mate. Feynstein (talk) 23:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

To my non-medical (but minimally scientifically literate) eyes, this doesn't look like a primary (case-study/experiment report/...) source. It doesn't change my previous comments on the content therein. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:52, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 06:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Except for this...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33558807/

@Feynstein, looks kind of like a checkmate on this issue, no? Which would great as we can all move on to better or more important things, yay!

There is now a good MEDRS secondary source that meets literally everyone's requirements.

Good MERS means the lab leak theory is a 'Minority but scientific viewpoint.'

A 'Minority but scientific viewpoint' can not be a 'Conspiracy theory'. More precisely, it is no longer a 'Conspiracy theory.'

Might need a little blurb about the transition.

Case closed.

Any objections to assuming consensus on this?

Dinglelingy (talk) 13:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a modified version of the article appearing in a non-MEDLINE indexed journal, an indication that the journal article may not be reliable. Avoid, especially when we have solid sources.

talk) 13:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

That's one objection. Any others? Dinglelingy (talk) 13:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, plenty of objections. As said, this is a translation of the French-language article mentioned above, and I'm not going to repeat what I said about it in excruciating detail (see my comment and the one mentioned in it earlier, [15]), but in short, the only thing it offers for this lab leak story is some minor speculation (which, unlike for the other statements in that study, is not even sourced to any other previous paper). And it is from last August, so it isn't exactly the newest thing. We'd do better to wait for the full WHO report and see how that has any consequences in MEDRS: after all, on Wikipedia, we're not supposed to be latest news and there's no worry if we're a bit delayed in reporting things, especially when reporting things earlier could lend undue credence (read

WP:FALSEBALANCE for once) to a theory that is not really supported, except for some minor mentions, in proper sources. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

"The data currently available are not sufficient to firmly assert whether SARS-CoV2 results from a zoonotic emergence or from an accidental escape of a laboratory strain. This question needs to be solved because it has important consequences on the risk/benefit balance of our interactions with ecosystems, ::on intensive breeding of wild and domestic animals, on some laboratory practices and on scientific policy and biosafety regulations"

The review is updated with current data and additional information. They have not backed away from their previous statement. It's from Feb 4, 2021. You are proposing to wait until for the WHO Summary report. You are not claiming it's not a good MEDRS review. I think that's right. Any other objections?Dinglelingy (talk) 14:04, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A translation does not mean the data is the latest available, and, crucially, even the publication date (let alone the date at which this was actually submitted for publication: peer-review and translation typically are not, in a reputable journal, something done hurriedly in a day or two) is before the WHO press conference on the 9th, which provided plenty of new information, which this study (initially written in August 2020) could not possibly have even known of. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:06, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"This article is the English translation and update of a French article published in médecines/sciences (10.1051/medsci/2020123) on July 10, 2020. Since our study included a complete re-analysis by ourselves of the genomic and peptidic sequences, this English translation contains an additional section “Materials and methods.” We also added the ferret in Fig. 4, made some minor revisions, added a short conclusion at the end of each paragraph and discussed a few key articles on the subject that were published after our initial publication."

I don't think that changes anything from your first comment. You have a content issue. I posted what the review says about the update, people can read it for themselves. Are you now saying it is not MEDRS? If you are not saying that, we are good and we can see if there are any other objections. Are the any other objections? Dinglelingy (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to go in circles and repeat myself about the analysis of the French language article (most sections are pretty much unchanged). What about this direct quote: "The hypothesis promoted by most specialists is that the virus has a zoonotic origin. This hypothesis relies on phylogenetic studies suggesting [...]". So the lab leak thing would still be pretty much a minority affair (even more so in light of the more recent WHO reports), so even if we somehow wanted to divorce it from the politically motivated conspiracies we'd still only afford a very minor mention of it per WP:DUE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You don't have to. I have acknowledged you have a content issue and people can read your comments. You are not claiming it is not MEDRS. Thank you for your objection. Are there any other objections? Dinglelingy (talk) 16:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. I still think we have to mention in the article, that there is no way to tell an artificially produced virus from a natural, zoonotic emergence. Alexpl (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's fine with a nice MEDRS link. Thank you. Dinglelingy (talk) 17:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

RFC closure

Was the main RFC (the one with the "survey" section) that was closed just now by Hemiauchenia closed properly? I don't feel like having 5 days of debate spanning over 200 edits, then getting a close of "oh this RFC doesn't count, see this MFD instead" is the correct close here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:02, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hemiauchenia I reverted your premature closure. Wait for the discussion to play out and then ask at the appropriate board for a formal close. This is about what happens in this article, and not about what may or may not have happened at another article. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Novem Linguae: @DeFacto: In that case everyone who voted in the MfD but not in this RfC should be notified of this RfC. This RfC currently has less than half of the votes in the MfD, many of which expressed that the "lab leak" was a conspiracy theory. The RfC should not be closed until every MfD voter has been notified and given reasonable time to respond. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassing a group of editors with a known opinion, with a reasonable expectation that they will influence the outcome of a discussion in a particular way isn't a good idea. Do we have to check every other article in Wikipedia each time we have a disagreement or RfC on an article, in case they've argued the same point before? Of course not. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@DeFacto: I never said that editors who exclusively expressed negative opinions in the MfD should be notified, that indeed would be canvassing. My point is that all the editors who expressed an opinion in that discussion should be notified of this one, as whether or not the "lab leak" supposition is a conspiracy theory was a central theme of that discussion. The MfD by my count had 33 participants, compared to this ones 15. Whether or not the "lab leak" supposition is a conspiracy theory has been an ongoing issue for nearly a year at this point, and it should not be considered resolved by a low participation RfC. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hemiauchenia, knowing what the consensus was there gives a reasonable expectation as to the influence the same participants might have here. Anyway, here we are talking about something completely different - here we are discussing the investigations into the hypothesis, and not specifically what the strengths/weaknesses of the hypothesis are. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:14, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the closing statement, it was based on the strength of the arguments presented, not the number of participants, it was a more even split than you might think. The discussion was also heavily canvassed by ScrupulousScribe, who covertly emailed all of the users who had previously expressed pro "lab leak" opinions in related discussions extending many months before the MfD, including accounts which had long been dormant. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DeFacto By the same reasoning, you could be accused of trying to keep this a secret from those users because you fear that the majority of them will disagree with you. If you use this two-edged sword, you are very likely to cut yourself.

Hemiauchenia is right. Another point:

WP:ANI if they had any expectation of success. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:25, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

votestacking to me. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

We already know that you disagree. And we already know the reason you gave for disagreeing. And we already know why you really disagree. You do not need to repeat yourself. Read

WP:BLUDGEON. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

And it was rightfully ignored as the claim was frivolous. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

People will answer, be patient. I wouldn't call the evidence "frivolous" though, it's pretty explicit. Evidence you still didn't address over there btw. I'm waiting for your rationalization behind using

WP:BAIT editors into getting topic banned. Looks pretty disruptive imo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Feynstein (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

This section is creating so much confusion and debate, and one of the reason is that, as the second sentence states: "One such narrative says the pandemic was the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus, another that the virus was engineered as a bio-weapon." We're really dealing with two completely different hypotheses, that are treated differently by the experts. For clarity, these two should split it, in order to make it clearer and also help the discussion/debate about sources. Eccekevin (talk) 22:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is related to the above RfC. In short, both the "bio-weapon" and "accidental leak" are sufficiently marginal that having separate sections on each one would be legitimising them unduly (at least, if you ask me). Anyway, no need to split the discussion between here and the RfC RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How could just splitting the sections legitimize them? This page is literally called COVID-19 misinformation . Splitting the section would make the whole topic much clearer, both for the reader and for the discussion that is raging on. The issue is that editors are debating two different ideas as if they were one, hence creating a lot of confusion. Eccekevin (talk) 21:59, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we split the two separate WIV related stories; then proponents of the "lab leak" will take free rein to say add things which unduly legitimse it, such as can be seen at the previous MfD for a related POVFORK page; or even here with the "it's not impossible" (incorrectly shifting the burden of proof from those proposing the theory to those opposing it) arguments. Keeping the two bits together will prevent such free additions - the two conspiracies are intrinsically related: they involve the Wuhan lab, and some form of conspiracy to hide the alleged, fictional, events, whether it be sinister bioengineering or a more mundane leak (both have been deemed extremely unlikely, if not outright rejected, by MEDRS)... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The two hypotheses should not be treated as the same. The WHO does not treat them as the same and WHO mission chief Peter Embarek clarified the unfortunate "extremely unlikely" wording in his interview with Science magazine. Embarek even said that calling the hypothesis "extremely unlikely" is an "accomplishment" because previously it was "impossible": https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/02/politics-was-always-room-who-mission-chief-reflects-china-trip-seeking-covid-19-s CutePeach (talk) 02:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is not what the source says. Exact quote:

So this went from "extremely unlikely" to "even more extremely unlikely"; not the other way round, and certainly not from "impossible" to "extremely unlikely". I've already had this discussion in the RfC above. Claiming that the lab leak theory is regarded seriously by MEDRS is dubious at best, misleading at worst: in the most generous of assessments, we could say that it's, like all other "not impossible" but not debunked theories, "under [various degrees of] investigation". But then again the exact origin of COVID will likely be "under investigation" for a while further (many years), so singling out one particular theory (and a

fringey on a that) in this aspect would bring out undue attention on it. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:58, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

And directly after the section you quote is:

Likely or not, these two hypotheses are not one and the same. The sources do not treat them as the same and there is no better source than the WHO mission chief. The WHO's full report will be published next week. CutePeach (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The circular repetition of this same point is disruptive, particularly since the complainants don't seem to have read the article where the different types of misinformation are teased out, and backed by good sources. To quote (references redacted):

Conspiracy theories and unfounded speculation have gained popularity during the pandemic, holding that the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. One such narrative says the pandemic was the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus, another that the virus was engineered as a bio-weapon.

This is completely explicit. It does not lump everything together as "conspiracy theory" (some is just "unfounded speculation") and also specifically mentions "the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus". Sources are cited backing this up. Sheesh.

Thank you

Alexbrn. -Darouet (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I do not agree with your view point and your reading of the sources. I agree with Eccekevin's view point that we are dealing with two completely different hypotheses that are treated differently by the experts. The interview with WHO mission chief Peter Embarek in Science Magazine makes it very clear that the hypothesis of an accidental leak is treated differently to the hypothesis of engineered as a bio-weapon, which in your sources are conflated. Embarek also spoke about this later in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSS5DzeV_wU CutePeach (talk) 18:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even read my response, or the article? This is just nonsensical raving, detached from the text(s) in play.

talk) 18:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Calling my words nonsensical raving is a personal attack (tagging ToBeFree). Please stay at the top of this pyramid with your argumentation and refrain from gaslighting tactics. I am a biotechnology professional by education with a successful career in implementing biosafety and biosecurity practices in hospitals and laboratories. I read your reply and the text and I respectfully disagree with your view point as I don't see how the selective quotes from your texts can supplant the statements of the WHO mission chief. There are other editors more experienced than I who agree with my view point in other discussions above and on other pages, such as Eccekevin, DeFacto, My very best wishes, Forich Guest2625, NickCT, Adoring nanny, Tim333, Slatersteven, JPxG, Hobit, Vaticidalprophet and Horse Eye's Back. You may disagree with our view point, but we are not nonsensical ravers and you should accord us the same respect as you would with a colleague in your university or work place. CutePeach (talk) 01:44, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just as a friendly warning, pinging (by linking their user page using {{

WP:NOTAVOTE

).

Whoever you are in real life, on Wikipedia you must be able to cite proper sources which support the addition or change of information. So far, I've only seen convoluted interpretations (which are closer to

WP:FALSEBALANCE

by suggesting that there is a significant amount of doubt about the current consensus.

Anyway, Wikipedia is supposed to lag behind the consensus of sources, not report latest developments. If and when we have more complete investigations, and more definitive answers on the origin of COVID, then of course we can update the information. Until then, arguing the same points ad nauseam hoping people will get bored of this is not the way to go forward. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:30, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The complaint here is nonsensical raving because the OP asserts the bio-weapon and lab leak notions are "treated as the same", when they are explicitly itemized in our article as two distinct narratives. Thus the central point of the complaint is refuted. This is really a complaint about reality, and not something we can fix with the sources as they are. What we have properly reflects peer-reviewed, scholarly publications. All these lab origin ideas are somewhere in the "unfounded speculation" / "conspiracy theory" / "misinformation" realm per the solid RS cited, without recourse to

talk) 03:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

No the complaint is not nonsensical raving and this language is denigrating and entirely inappropriate (again tagging ToBeFree). As Eccekevin explained above, this article is about misinformation so the "Wuhan lab leak story" section should be properly split into "accidental leak" and "engineered as a bio-weapon" as the former hypothesis one may not even belong in this article. The wording must to be impartial to better represent the sources used and more sources with different view points included. Peter Embarek’s words saying the theory is "more unlikely" than before are cherry picked as he also said the "extremely unlikely" classification is an improvement from the “impossible to even discuss” it was before. CutePeach (talk) 07:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Repeating the same refuted argument while bolding lots of words does not a stronger argument make, but savours even more of raving. What would make a difference is an explicit edit proposal with good text properly

talk) 07:59, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexbrn, I agree with Drmies that we should focus on serious scholarship and I will work on an edit proposal as you suggested. I will work on it in my sandbox and send it to you when ready. CutePeach (talk) 05:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Can I ask why you say said in above conversation that we should avoid using Sallard et al as a source to clarify for our readers that a laboratory escape is something that isn’t necessarily misinformation? In above conversations,

Médecine/sciences, a peer-reviewed journal which exclusively publishes reviews, so its PubMed’s classification of it as a comparative study

is puzzling. The second version would have been peer reviewed by the second journal’s experts, so it shouldn’t matter.

As part two of my question: why are we avoiding this source when the current sources used such as the Hakim paper, doesn’t specify the lab leak hypothesis as a conspiracy theory? In section 3.2 of the Hakim paper, the laboratory release theory is rejected with four reasons given, but concludes: However, an independent forensic investigation is probably the only course of action to prove or disprove this speculation. Finally, we can always learn from the previous SARS‐CoV accidents that the best biosafety practices must be implemented to prevent any accidents in the future.

I think both papers, when read properly, support our colleague Eccekevin’s proposal to discuss these different hypotheses separately. This is a critical point in identifying serious scholarship.CutePeach (talk) 06:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sallard et al is in a low-quality (not MEDLINE-index) chemistry journal, so is not usable. The original is indeed published in a more reputable French journal, but this (correctly) does not classify it is a review, but as the comparative study that it plainly is. The Hakim source is correctly reflected as is. You can't use a source which refers to these ideas as "speculation" or "conspiracy theories" to elevate them into some kind of mainstream scientific questions or (ye gods) "

scientific theories

". 08:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I didn’t know about {{

noping}} but the users I tagged are already here in this discussion already on this very page so it is not canvassing. Your interpretation of the WHO mission chief’s words are false and misleading as he clarified the "extremely unlikely" wording in the Science Magazine interview and the other interview I linked to above. This is not an ad nauseam point in this discussion and instead of lecturing me, you should read the Science magazine piece and compromise on your position. CutePeach (talk) 07:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Well sure, if you read the interview like this:

Q: But my question is whether you learned anything new in China. Now that you’ve been there, do you have more reason to say it’s “extremely unlikely” than before?
A: Yes. We had long meetings with the staff of the Wuhan Institute of Virology and three other laboratories in Wuhan. They talked about these claims openly. We discussed: What did you do over the past year to dismiss this claim? What did you yourself develop in terms of argumentations? Did you do audits yourself? Did you look at your records? Did you test your staff? And they explained how they worked and what kind of audit system they had. They had retrospectively tested serum from their staff. They tested samples from early 2019 and from 2020. There were a lot of discussions that we could not have had if we had not traveled to Wuhan. We also did not have evidence provided by outsiders to support any of the claims out there. That could potentially have tipped the balance. What we saw and discussed gave us much more confidence in our assessment. The consensus was that this is an unlikely scenario.
Q: So, it will be investigated further, just not by you and your team?
A: It’s not something we’re going to pursue in the coming weeks and months. But our assessment is out there, and the topic is on the table. This is to me a big achievement, because for the past year it was mission impossible to even discuss it or even put it on the table or on the agenda of any meeting or discussion.

If you actually read all the words together it's obvious this has nothing to do with the viability of the lab leak idea and everything to do with the WHO's ability to make any assessment of it at all. It was "mission impossible" to make any progress in the investigation until the team actually went to Wuhan, after which their findings informed their conclusion that it was "extremely unlikely". JoelleJay (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JoelleJay, that is really not obvious to me at all. By my comprehension, Embarek is referring specifically to the lab leak idea as previously impossible to table, and not just any progress in the investigation. I agree that Embarek does not give more weight to the viability of the lab leak idea in his comment, but no one claimed that he did, so that is a red herring. We are not discussing the viability of the idea here, but about splitting it off from conspiracy theories / misinformation as it is one of the four hypotheses in the preliminary report on the WHO’s scientific study. Maybe we should we wait for the final report. CutePeach (talk) 11:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK with me, as I said in the RFC we should differentiate between the conspiracy theories and genuine scientific questions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatersteven (talk • contribs)

I don't even know what the argument about this is. The current page states: "One such narrative says the pandemic was the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus, another that the virus was engineered as a bio-weapon.". Since as the page itself states it's two hypotheses, let's discuss them separately. I haven't heard a good reason not to.Eccekevin (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Attempt to circumvent the RfC

On Wikipedia generally, both “variants” of the lab origin concept - bioengineered and lab leak - have been treated as a conspiracy theory with virtually no support in the scientific community. This reflects the mainstream scientific view that both variants of this concept are highly unlikely. Now, an ongoing RfC, above, appears to be once again confirming this view. In that context, this section comes across as an attempt to preemptively negate the RfC outcome once again confirming that the “lab leak” is misinformation. We need to accurately convey to readers the scientific consensus on this issue: a natural virus being collected by the WIV and subsequently leaking to cause this pandemic is viewed by scientists as highly unlikely. -Darouet (talk) 03:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some editors don't agree with the wording of the RFC and even Alexbrn says it won’t settle it. As Alexbrn and the Wall Street Journal say, there are different lab leak theories. We are still waiting for the WHO to release its full report to know what the science says. We also have to wait and see how it is received by the WHO’s member states. Please see Politicization of science. CutePeach (talk) 06:18, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article text as is is evolved beyond the question of the RfC, making it moot. Per the best sources, all the lab origin narratives are somewhere on the spectrum between "conspiracy theory" and "unfounded speculation", and we say that. Nothing is elevated to the status of (legitimate) "theory" in the context of science, so using that word is

talk) 08:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

This is a moot point. It doesn't change the fact that they are two separate ideas and should be treated as such, even if they are considered both conspiracy theories or both legitimate or whatever. But they are two different ideas. Eccekevin (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well they are considered as such, as should be clear if you read the article. That does not mean we need to have separate sections on them; especially if they have plenty of common characteristics... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:42, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Except they are not, because the commentary is the same for both, when it's clear from the RfC that they are not treated equally by the scientific community. Eccekevin (talk) 02:47, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To quote the current state of the article: "Conspiracy theories and unfounded speculation have gained popularity during the pandemic, holding that the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.[27][28] One such narrative says the pandemic was the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus, another that the virus was engineered as a bio-weapon.[29][27][25][30]". The reason for putting them together is very clear - and if you're arguing that the "accidental lab leak" hypothesis is being treated as anything but "extremely unlikely" by the scientific community (this viewpoint, a careful reading of the RfC and sources therein provided will show to not be accepted), we'll need you to quote proper MEDRS for that. If you think the text is otherwise misleading, please identify which parts are actually misleading and suggest improvements. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, the sources treat the accidental lab leak as extremely unlikely, but they treat the biological weapon hypothesis as a conspiracy theory. While some serious scientists have been open to the possibility of the first (however unlikely), none has been for the latter. Hence, they are treated differently. But the current page lumps them in, hence making it seem that the scientific community treats them as one. Eccekevin (talk) 04:22, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not quite right. Some sources treat all "lab origin" stories as a conspiracy theory. And Not all "human engineered" stories invoke bioweapons. It's all, however, in the province of online speculation without any supporting scientific evidence, in the context of the general understanding that the virus was of natural origin. Our article says "One such narrative says the pandemic was the result of an accidental leakage of a coronavirus, another that the virus was engineered as a bio-weapon." That differentiates them as much as our sources do. People wanting to create some kind of "But this might be true" sub-heading are pushing a

talk) 06:39, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Angela Rasmussen: "Lab origin is one hypothesis that should be tested. My opinion is that it is less likely than natural origin but still possible and can’t be ruled out. As a scientist I believe the data must lead the way." [39]
• David Relman: "Alternatively, the complete SARS-CoV-2 sequence could have been recovered from a bat sample and viable virus resurrected from a synthetic genome to study it, before that virus accidentally escaped from the laboratory." [40]
• Daniel R. Lucey: "Might a Chinese laboratory have had a virus they were working on that was genetically closer to Sars-Cov-2, and would they tell us now if they did?" [41]
• Filippa Lentzos: "investigating the range of possible spillover sites - from the wet market, to an accidental lab or fieldwork infection, or an unnoticed lab leak - requires a forensic investigation."
• Marc Lipsitch: "the @WHO team will need to consider the hypothesis that the virus was accidentally released from the lab" - "Otherwise, the report won’t have done its job." [42]
• Michael Eisen: "And there is an at least plausible case for lab accident too, in that the virus first appeared in the rough vicinity of a lab that is studying precisely this kind of virus and doing the kind of experiments that, if something went wrong, would lead to disaster." [43]
• Rasmus Nielsen (biologist): One problem, he says, is the spread of conspiracy theories that Covid-19 was created in a lab and then intentionally released. “I think that has really harmed the case for a proper investigation.” While investigating a lab-accident origin is important, he says, it’s gotten lumped in with tinfoil hat ideas. [44]
• Richard Ebright: "The question whether the outbreak virus entered humans through an accidental infection of a lab worker is a question of historical fact, not a question of scientific fact. The question can be answered only through a forensic investigation, not through a scientific investigation." [45]

tinybubi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinybubi (talk • contribs) 08:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC) — Tinybubi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Yes, of the millions of working scientists on earth, you can find a few who say that we should take the "lab leak" idea more seriously than do all other scientists. Every one of the sources you're linking is either a twitter comment, a comment in an ordinary newspaper, or in two cases a comment in Science news / an opinion piece in PNAS. This doesn't change the fact that most scientists view the lab leak hypothesis as extremely unlikely, and as a political conspiracy theory. -Darouet (talk) 14:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There was an interesting article about lab leaks in general, most in the US, in USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/opinion/2021/03/22/why-covid-lab-leak-theory-wuhan-shouldnt-dismissed-column/4765985001/) and discussion on Hacker News (802 comments) (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26540458#26545903)

The top comment:

>This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known.

>This article points out that a lab outbreak could have happened in the United States and many places in the world. We need to avoid demonizing China over this if we want to ever find out the truth and learn how to prevent another pandemic outbreak.

Seems a reasonable position to me. Maybe a lab leak article including the Wuhan possibilities in the context of the many other leaks in history? Tim333 (talk) 10:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have high-quality scholarly sources, so no need to use lower-quality journalism.

talk) 10:29, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply

]