Talk:Nikolai Gogol/Archive 1

Thank you. Yet now that I've read carefully

Garik 11 (talk

) 08:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

come on chaps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.246.76 (talk) 23:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

In February I added the following: "indeed more recent criticism has noted that he "brought the absurd to Russian literature" ", with the citation from Timothy Snyder: "Gogol Haunts the New Ukraine" in The New York Review of Books. It was good faith reverted:

22:11, February 16, 2011 Garik 11 (talk | contribs) (37,371 bytes) (rv good faith edit - this is what a political journalist says, not a literary critic).

While I would disagree with the statement that

It takes only a cursory reading of "the Nose" or "Dead Souls" to be confirmed in this sentiment. I'll come back with a modern reading list that demonstrates this point of view, but again this article already notes the Formalists' fascination with his modernist/absurdist aspects. JDnCoke (talk) 13:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Romanticism in itself is "proto-modernist". Raymond Williams' The Politics of Modernism, for example, lays this out in some detail. Aligning Gogol with "absurdism" or the "theatre of the absurd" is a real stretch--such a minority position may be mentioned in the article at some point, but it certainly doesn't belong in the lead. Employing grotesque elements and a complex, heightened form of realism isn't enough to warrant it. I suspect that a too-limiting definition of "realism" is what is really at issue here. Remember, too, that Gogol's work is not confined to literature. His theatre work is one of the main influences on Konstantin Stanislavski's development of psychological realism at the Moscow Art Theatre.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 14:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi DP. Thanks for your measured reply: I certainly agree with you that claiming Gogol is aligned with

Nabokov's Gogol (1989). In any case, to omit, whether it be proto-Modernism, Modernism, Freudian-ambiguous, whatever, to omit reference to these neither realist nor Romantic elements of Gogol's work is to discount a significant body of modern recent critical enquiry into his work. This is the English Wikipedia page on Gogol, not the Russian one, and so we need not feel suffocated by the straightjacket of Russo-Soviet scholarship... JDnCoke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.48.136 (talk

) 22:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

If I may append a quote from Nabokov's work: "If you expect to find out something about Russia... if you are interested in 'ideas' and 'facts' and 'messages,' keep away from Gogol`". I, personally, do not subscribe to this view, but the fact remains that, unlike almost every other major Russian writer of the period, explaining why Gogol` writes is difficult. Incredibly diverse interpretations of his works exist and, more importantly, are entertained by sensitive critics that do not just have an axe to grind, whether that be the absurdist-supernatural elements, the hidden psyche or indeed social/political commentary. None of these readings are obviously preposterous. What Nabokov intends here is that Gogol` resists being shoehorned into one box (you simply cannot have the same range of divergent interpretation concerning

Nabokov; William Rowe's Through Gogol`'s Looking Glass (1976); Simon Karlinsky's Sexual Labyrinth (1992) has also been mentioned, to name but a few. I hope this is convincing enough for one small word with a lot of meaning to be added. JDnCoke (talk

) 20:16, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I edited the section on Nabokov's assessment - it inaccurately stated that Nabokov only admired three pieces by Gogol. Also, Nabokov's assessment of Gogol as being, at certain times, "the greatest artist Russia has yet produced," is something that should be included in this article, and I've put it here. Vicpvicpvicp (talk) 01:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Oops. I just re-added a paragraph on Gogol's sexuality. However, I think I phrased it carefully enough to be fair to all parties. Regarding the "credible evidence," I haven't seen it, but perhaps someone else has. Does Karlinsky provide it? I incline to the opinion that a clever interpretation of the work is not enough.

Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. Karlinsky's work includes lit crit, biographical details, exceprts from Gogol's letters, and anecdotes from Gogol's friends. It doesn't make a closed case of Gogol's sexuality, but it does raise questions, and it does so using more than a clever interpretation. -Seth Mahoney 17:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take your word for it. I've seen this work but haven't read it. Raising questions is of course not the same as giving answers -- and raising questions about sexual orientation is pretty much synonymous with human nature. So I think Fisenko's point is valid and the compromise works. Sorry, I'm new to Wikipedia; I assumed it would sign me automatically. Alas, I have no idea what your symbols up there mean. Cheers, GRRueckert.

It means you type those five symbols at the end of your talk page contributions to sign them. Anyway, I agree that questions are different from answers, and the compromise works. -Seth Mahoney 18:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed comments about Gogol's alleged homosexuality until any credible evidence of this statement is presented. (Fisenko 22:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC))

Try The Sexual Labyrinth of Nikolai Gogol by Simon Karlinsky (reviewed here. - Outerlimits 22:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I added the citation. -Seth Mahoney 17:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I see that the article has again been purged of any mention of his personal life. Some sad individuals seem compelled to suppress this particular category of information in Wikipedia entries. Ilmateur (talk) 12:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

No purging is going on. Info needs

talk

) 14:36, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Several times I have tried to show that it is unfair to label Gogol's depiction of Jews as being anti-semitic. The article bases this entire accusation on the depiction of Yankel. Taras Bulba the character is someone sympathetic to Yankel as is the narrator. Throughout Gogol's work, there are references to Jews which are sympathetic. Every time I enter this observation, someone deletes it and lately someone said that I did not show citations. It is for the person making an accusation to prove it, not the person who is accused and Gogol is not here to defend himself. I come from a family of Jews who lived near Gogol. A reasonable person reading Taras Bulba is not likely to come away from it with the impression that Gogol was an anti-semite but perhaps the accusation got someone their Ph.D. or tenure somewhere. But as Gogol wrote: skuchni n'yetom sveta gospoda! Sklaw5 (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sklaw5 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion of Gogel's possible anti-Semitism is sourced in the current article.

talk

) 08:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

To say that Gogol wrote in the Russian language and to say that he was a Russian (linked to Russia) are two different things. Ukranian wasn't used as a literary language at the time, and the Ukraine was not an independent nation, so naturally he wrote in Russian.--Prosfilaes 21:18, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article did not say he was Russian. It said he was a Russian writer. These are two different things. He was not Russian but Ukrainian. But he was a Russian writer because he contributed to Russian literature. There were contemporary authors who wrote in Ukrainian at the time. Gogol wasn't. So, the article correctly had it:

Gogol was a Ukrainian-born (i.e. of Ukrainian ethnicity) Russian writer (i.e. writer of Russian literature).

It would be more correct to call Shevchenko (who wrote some poetry and prose also in Russian) a Ukrainian-Russian author (this would be absurd of course, I am just making a point), than to call Gogol a Ukrainian-Russian writer. I am going to revert that to an original version. If you insist on the article saying that he was Ukrainian more explicitly, you can change it to "Russian writer of Ukrainian ethnicity" but this sounds clumsy, I think, and "Ukrainian-born" pretty much says the same thing.

Ukrainian literature has many talented authors. It is a big disservice to this literature to assign Gogol to it because it may create a wrong impression that Ukrainian literature itself has no one to offer and has to co-opt Russian writers to make a claim for significance. It doesn't and it is doing well with its own great talents. But the main issue, of course, is that the claim is incorrect regardless of its political meaning. -Irpen 23:03, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

It said he was a [[Russia|Russian]] writer. That's different from saying that he was a [[Russian language|Russian]] writer. By saying the first, you are saying he's Russian, and it's closer to what the English sentence "he was a Russian writer" means. For example, Mark Twain is called an American writer, and never an English writer that I've seen. --Prosfilaes 06:09, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Now I agree, this is a valid point. Myself, like the majority of readers, did not pay attention to what was behind such an obvious link as "Russian". Now I changed that to "[[Russian literature|Russian writer]]". Or perhaps we could change that to "[[List of Russian authors|Russian writer]]". The latter article starts with: "This is the list of authors that wrote in [[Russian language]]. Not all of them are of Russian descent...", which I think is very politically correct way to say it.

With incorrect link, this was somewhat misleading, I agree with you, but still less misleading than the version calling him "Ukrainian-Russian writer" no matter what the hidden links where. Disregarding links, it is more correct to say "Ukrainian born Russian writer" than "Ukrainian-Russian writer" about Gogol. At least this is my feeling and forgive me if I am wrong, I am not a native English speaker. Marko Vovchok, for example, is the one who could correctly be called Ukrainian-Russian writer. Any takers to write an article on this very talented woman highly acclaimed by both Ukrainian and Russian critics? I might do it myself some time. Regards, -Irpen 20:13, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait. Gogol's work was heavily influenced by his time spent in Ukraine. While his works are studied as part many Russian Literature classes, in Ukraine he is considered a Ukrainian author. By the way, Mark Twain is regarded as American, because his works are based around American setting and are about Americans. I don't care that it states in the article that he is a Russian author - that is fair, since it is true. However, in Russia he is considered Russian and his Ukrainian heritage is kind of ignored. On the other hand, Gogol sometimes is studied as part of Ukrainian liturature, but surely in translation to Ukrainian. I just think that to a foreign reader not aware of Russo-Ukrainian politics, it would be important to clarify that both cultures have their claim on Gogol, but on different aspects of his nature. I like the idea of calling his a "Ukrainian writer of Russian literature" - someone came up with that idea before -Anamatv 06:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, my sister (who attends a school in Ukraine) studies Gogol as "foreign literature", alongside Shakespeare and Balzac. Secondly, you need to provide evidence that "his Ukrainian heritage is kind of ignored" in Russia (where the Ukrainian stories are still compulsory for schoolboys). Thirdly, the "Ukrianian influence" refers to his two juvenile (and by far the weakest) books; I don't think you'll spot any Ukrainianisms in his mature work. Fourthly, Gogol always loudly identified himself as a Russian and regarded Russia as his native land. If you bothered to read his mature writing without knowing who is the author, you'll perhaps take him for a Russian nationalist. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If Mark Twain is regarded as American because his works are based around America, then Lewis Caroll should be considered Wonderlandian and C.S. Lewis Narnian. --Prosfilaes 13:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Gogol was born in Ukraine, as a juvenile composed his first works in Ukrainian, and Ukrainian themes dominated his first works. Indeed, early twentieth century Russian critics have even commented that Gogol's Russian langauge was not quite grammtically correct, and represented aliteral translation from Ukrainian. According to Yosif Mendelshtam, "the spirit of non-Russian speech remained in him," and Vladimir Dal wondered "what would happen if he wrote in [good] Russian." Gogol's biography has parallels with that of Joseph Conrad and Vladimir Nabokov. In contrast to Gogol, despite Conrad's never denying his Polish roots, that novelist never used Polish themes in his literature. Nabokov, on the other hand, left Russia at a later age than Gogol left Ukraine. Therefore, Gogol's Ukrainian-ness seems to be somewhere between Joseph Conrad's Polishness and Vladimir Nabokov's Russian-ness. Note that both of the articles about those people emphasize their native ethnicity (Conrad was "a Polish-born British novelist" and Nabakov a "Russian-American author.") in their first sentence. I see no reason why Gogol's article shouldn't follow that precedent. Indeed, this sort of thing has been written before. In a New York Times article from June 14, 1992, 9"What Country do I live in? Many Russians are asking," the NY Times correspondent Celestine Bohlen stated that "Nikolai Gogol was a Ukrainian writer who wrote in Russian".Faustian 14:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

An interesting fact along those lines: "In 1846, when he was in Karlsbad, Gogol wrote down in the guest book, "Nicolas de Gogol, Ukrainien, etabli a Moscou" ("Nikolay Gogol, Ukrainian, living in Moscow") [6].Faustian 15:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The article needs to be clear that the writer was Ukrainian, as Ukrainian as Joseph Conrad was Polish (perhaps more so, as the other writer never wrote anything with Polish). At present form this is not clear. "Ukrainian-born Russian writer" makes him seem like Mikhail Bulgakov, while "Ukrainian heritage and upbringing" seems to dilute the fact that the guy was completely Ukrainian. Why not just keep it as "Russian-lannguage writer of Ukrainian origin (or better, ethnicity) which seems most accurate. Incidentally I've recently bought and highly recommend a fscinating book, with good reviews by serious academicians, about the ambivalence of Gogol's relationship to Russia that lasted nearly until his death [7]. Some of Gogol's writings about Russian vs. Ukrainian culture (in the context of his comments defending Mazepa) in his personal letters could have been written by a typical Banderist chauvinist. Understandably this aspect about the writer was heavily deemphasized by Russian and Soviet scholars (and thus Western ones who depended on them as sources) but is not seeing the light of day. Among the reviews:

A major contribution to the history of Russian literary culture. Bojanowska illuminates Gogol's works in a new and interesting way, and makes a convincing case for his identification with Ukraine and his frequent inclination to compare Russia unfavorably to it. Her research is extensive, her argument fresh, stimulating, and controversial. The implications for our understanding of Gogol are enormous.

--Jeffrey P. Brooks, Johns Hopkins University

Edyta Bojanowska confronts head-on a fundamental anomaly: Nikolai Gogol was a Ukrainian, but he became a great Russian writer. She shows how Gogol, throughout his literary career, was deeply torn between his identity as a Ukrainian and his commitment to be a Russian writer. It was his mission to sear Russian hearts with his message of truth and righteousness and show them the way to purify their souls. But his Ukrainian heart was never really in it; he didn't like Russia or believe in it. This is an illuminating, impressive, and original work by a very talented scholar.

--Hugh McLean, University of California, Berkeley

Faustian 04:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Faustian 04:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There are two ways to handle the issue. By logic or by searching references. He was writing in Russian thus, he is a Russian writer, the same was as Joseph Conrad is British writer and Guillaume Apollinaire is a French poet. The other way is to look into references, how the mainstream sources like Britannica, Columbia even Encyclopedia of Ukraine represent him. So far the both methods yield the same result - he was a Ukraine-born Russian writer. Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a simple question. Why Walter Scott and Robert Lewis Stevenson are claimed to be Scottish (not English) writers? According to your logic, they lived in Great Britain, wrote in English. They did not produce a single work in Scottish Gaelic. Should they be considered as a part of English literature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.251.228.110 (talk) 11:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• The onus of responsibility to defend additions to an article is on those who wish to retain the content, and it needs to be defended item by item. The "Legacy" or "popular culture" or "cruft bin" whatever section is Mostly Crufty. I see one and only one cited reference. Even among the uncited ones, the cruftiness level of several pseudo-facts is pretty significant. If you can find a valid place for any cited portions of this info within the body text, please go ahead and sprinkle it in carefully.. Otherwise it all must go. • 
  Villain
  07:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Everything except the last two points are not "crufty". They clearly show his legacy. References are needed for controversial statements, but eg name of streets can be found via a map. I suggest to add that content back.--
  Tomcat (7
  ) 08:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Wondering on the source of the passage "He traced his ancestry to the great tabla player Bikram Gogoi, who had settled in the Ukrainian steppes after being banished by the Patels of Baguihat." I was able to find information on Baguihat as a neighbourhood of Kolkata, and of course Patel and Bikram are clearly East Indian names. This explanation seems a little strange to me (especially because "hohol" is not an unusual surname in Ukraine) because I can't imagine the difficulty or practicality of immigrating from West Bengal to Ukraine so many centuries ago. Was this something fanciful Gogol made up, a legend, or an actual fact? Sphecidae (talk) 18:52, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

It's unreferenced and most likely nonsense.Faustian (talk) 22:28, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

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Russians have to understand that Gogol also was a Ukrainian writer, not only Russian. He was born in Ukraine, he wrote about Ukraine, he loved Ukraine. Lets leave Gogol as Russian and Ukrainian writer. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.44.228.126 (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

There was no Ukraine at Gogol's time :) You should also note that Gogol haven't written a word in Ukrainian language, which I think is weird for a Ukrainian writer...Don't you think? That's all.ISasha (talk) 07:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

"Як же, мамо!" (from Ночь перед Рождеством) -- as well as other passages -- surely looks and sounds like Ukrainian to me. Mademoiselle Fifi (talk) 17:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

there was also no israel state at that time... does it mean the jews didn't exist also until 1948??? Also Kafka and Albert Einstein didn't speak or write hebrew and used german instead... so that means they are not jews ?? 94.139.128.250 (talk) 13:12, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I have little interest in the politically motivated debates regarding Gogol's ethnicity or nationality. It is clear, however, that this article has been subject to a sustained attempted to give a biased take on the writer's work. In its current state it clearly and unambiguously violates

@DionysosProteus: No, it is entirely DUE, and has been a subject of much research over the last few decades. In fact, the issue of some of the most prominent writers in the Russian language in the Russian Empire has not been stuck in the rut of ethnic misnomers since the final fall of empires and beginning of nation-states last century. Dylan Thomas wrote exclusively in English, as did Walter Scott: which does not make them English writers, but writers who wrote in English. Hardly surprising as it serves as a lingua franca as did, and still does, the Russian language.

Please see the Britannica article on Gogol. It would also be appreciated if you read through the talk on this talk page. You are breaking

WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT basis, not 'purging undue' content. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 21:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an appropriate forum for you to pursue nationalistic ideological aims, as I am sure you know very well. I spent some time restoring an appropriately encyclopaedic tone to this article. If you insist on using this article as a political football to kick around your nationalist agenda, I am quite happy to invite the wider Wikipedia community to assist in restoring the appropriate tone.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 22:47, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Fine. I see you are committed to defending your ownership of this article and promoting a view unsupported in sources not affiliated with either sides of the political conflict. I am going to report this behaviour and let the wider community address the problems you are creating.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DionysosProteus (talk • contribs) 23:02, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? Where did this

WP:POVPUSH according to your own agenda. Thank you for abstaining from ethnic name-calling. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 23:08, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

To what "personal attack" are you refering, exactly. And what "ethnic name calling" exactly? I have no agenda, other than preserving the article from bias. You simply reverted a significant amount of editing to clean up this article without examining it and without discussion. I appreciate that you are involved in a political and cultural conflict and wish to see your perspective reflected here. This is not an appropriate forum for you to do so, however.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 23:25, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

What 'political and cultural conflict' and my 'perspective reflected' are you talking about? Read the discussions above and understand that you are editing against consensus as to what is considered to be

WP:ASPERSION cast as to an ethnic interest, what 'political and cultural interest' are you possibly be talking about? --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 23:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

It is not, no, and your suggestion that it is merely supports the sense that you are not editing according to encyclopaedic criteria. I haven't looked at this article for some time and returning to it, it was a mess. You've restored that. The perspective to which I am refering is the one that feels it is necessary to include the word "Ukrainian" in most paragraphs, as if taking on an incantatory effect. The ethnic and nationalist aspects of Gogol's work should not be dominating the article on the subject. Consulting standard works on the history of literature or the history of theatre confirms that the POV you have been promoting on this page is not the non-biased perspective from which the article should tackle the subject.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 23:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Just for starters, you didn't do a bit of a tidy and purge of what you consider to be undue: you overhauled the entire article in a

WP:OWN. You've been very quick to completely take over the article and accuse other editors of being part of a nationalistic cabal. Calling for a DRN when you've only just involved yourself in the article for the first time is bizarre. You may have 'looked' at the article in the past, but you certainly haven't involved yourself in the editing or discussion at all... at any point in time. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 00:23, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I should also point out that I did not seek to purge the word "Ukrainian" from this article, only to restore it to a more appropriate frequency, in line with sources precisely like Britannica. Hence "undue". The same is true for the standard works I have in front of me that I consulted prior to cleaning up -- The Cambridge Guide and the American set-text History of the Theatre. My cleaned up version of this article included far more references to that country than any of those works. Either you did not trouble yourself to examine the edit or you wish to promote an emphasis on the Ukrainian aspects of this subject that is, in relation to standard critical treatments of the subject, undue and indicating the promotion of an ideological agenda. When the standard works that are not produced either by Ukrainian nor Russian scholarship include the refrain "Ukraine" in every paragraph, then it may become appropriate for this article to reflect that. Until then, it remains an undue emphasis. I see as I was writing this that you have responded. If you care to look a little more closely, there is no new material (barring a tiny addition relating his work to the broader history of theatre). The anti-semitism charges were there word-for-word -- I moved them to the section "Politics", since this is a political dimension of his work. And this is most certainly not the first time I have involved myself in this article, if you care to look a little more closely at the edit history. The organisation of the article is a mess and I cleaned it up, as an expert in the history of theatre and a very experienced editor on wikipedia. I recommend that you look more closely at the edits and address the manifest problems with this article that I have identified.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 00:30, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

From my position, you've just barged into the article changing the content to a large degree; left

WP:AGF collaboration. Fixing an article that's been through the edit wars by approaching it as a new edit war is going to fix absolutely nothing. At the moment, I don't believe I can work with you after such a rude beginning, particularly as (according to your position) my ethnicity precludes me from involving myself in this article. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 01:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes. My apologies regarding your involvement in the article. I missed the edits you made over 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. 2011 is, however, the last time you involved yourself in either editing or discussing the content. Given that you are experienced, I'm surprised that you didn't approach making changes to the content by beginning with a civil discussion and outlining the changes you proposed. I would have thought that, by now, you'd know that articles prone to edit warring really need to be approached with

due care, and that talking down to other editors is bad form. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 01:25, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

The content of the article remains almost entirely entact, which you can see for yourself if you examine it closely. It seems you have not. I separated out the biographic account, the literary development, and the interpretation and influences sections, the material of which remained under a more appropriate organisation. I was detailed, careful, and most importantly neutral with regard to the Russian/Ukrainian issue. You reverted it all. You indicated in your very first message that you were not prepared to countenance anything other than the patently absurd repetition of the word Ukrainian that overburdened the article. There is no "barging" involved. The article in its un-cleaned up state does most certainly not reflect scholarly consensus on the subject and was not well organised. As the Guardian article cited early on makes clear [8] this is a problem indexed to an external political conflict that has no rightful place here. I came to this article having encountered another editor's explicit efforts to promote precisely the agenda I discovered in place here. The article clearly and unambigously reflects an undue emphasis on his "Ukrainian" identity, in a palpably unencylopaedic manner. I read the very very long discussions above and concluded, entirely accurately I must say from your responses and behaviour, that the problem required editors who are affiliated neither with Russia nor the Ukraine, precisely because of the culture-wars being fought out in the world external to Wikipedia over who gets to claim Gogol as their own. The arguments you offer about Dickens or Twain evade that reality. As for "waving the expertise card", I addressed your assumption that the article in its non-cleaned up state was not suffering from undue emphasis and that I have not contributed to this article in the past and that what 'I' consider undue is irrelevant. As I made clear in my first message, I was not making an argument about my authority--though, holding three degrees in Theatre, I can manage that well enough thanks all the same--but one based on the standard academic sources that ought rightly to guide in establishing what is and what is not an undue emphasis. In my experience, when an editor waves around as many WP citations are you have, it usually means they know they are on very shakey ground. When one has reliable third-party non-biased sources, usually such things aren't necessary. It is easy enough to demonstrate the fact that the article is suffering from an undue emphasis: take any treatment of world literature or world theatre, consult the relevant sections on Gogol, and see if the word Ukrainian appears with the same frequency you are attempting to promote here. It doesn't. It is mentioned, of course, which I have both in my edit and in my responses here, made clear ought to be reflected in this article. The point, however, is that the constant intoning of the word throughout the article is an undue emphasis that distorts the encyclopaedic perspective appropriate to Wikipedia. Your assumption that the article is a biography also is not borne out by the actual content of the article, the majority of which is not biographical. The suggestion that critical treatment of Gogol's work belongs in individual articles is quite plainly mistaken--I invite you to look over the well developed articles of major writers to see that for yourself. The well-nigh hysterical tone and accusations of ethnic bias that you continue to repeat only serve to reinforce the impression that you have little interest in an appropriately encyclopaedic treatment. When articles are involved in wider socio-political conflicts, as this one clearly is, editors committed to one position or the other are unlikely to reach the appropriate perspective without external assistance. I concluded from the talk page above and from your decision to revert without addressing the palpable problems that this is the problem here too. Your responses and behaviour have merely reinforced the veracity of that conclusion. The article needs help from editors who have little interest either in promoting or supressing the ethnic or nationalist dimensions of its subject.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 01:57, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not able to judge who is right. However one detail from DP version Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka, was published seems to be superficial, Gogol started to write about Ukrainian villages and continued the subject during many years. Xx236 (talk) 06:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Removing the brief and harmless mention of Gogol's ethnicity from the lede, here: [9], and referenced statements such as the influence of his Ukrainian upbringing on his early writing here: [10] seems to be gratuitous and unnecessary, as well as against consensus.Faustian (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Another note: Britannica is quite open about Gogol's Ukrainian background and influences: [11]. "The Ukrainian countryside, with its colourful peasantry, its Cossack traditions, and its rich folklore, constituted the background of Gogol’s boyhood. A member of the petty Ukrainian gentry, Gogol was sent at the age of 12 to the high school at Nezhin"..."n the meantime Gogol wrote occasionally for periodicals, finding an escape in childhood memories of the Ukraine. He committed to paper what he remembered of the sunny landscapes, peasants, and boisterous village lads, and he also related tales about devils, witches, and other demonic or fantastic agents that enliven Ukrainian folklore."..."In addition to the author’s whimsical inflection, they abounded in genuine folk flavour, including numerous Ukrainian words and phrases, all of which captivated the Russian literary world."Faustian (talk) 15:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as I could see, the infobox clearly indicated ethnicity and there was immediately in the biography a significant treatment of the question. I suggest that that is the most appropriate place for it, in lieu of a separate section that addresses the recent culture-war head-on (which is, I suggest, the most desirable but also most difficult challenge facing the article). It isn't a question, as far as I can see, of being either "open" or "closed" about his ethnicity. On the same model of sexuality, if it's treated as significant in encycolpaedic treatments of the subject, then a mention in the lede would be appropriate. So far as I can tell, it is not. Gogol's childhood and junvenelia belong in an early life section of the biography. I agree that it is revelant to the discussion of some early work. To paint the early collections of stories as being exclusively addressing such concerns, though, would be, as I indicated, an undue emphasis. The accounts I have looked at -- that is, ones arising from neither Russian nor Ukrainian writers -- either do not mention it at all, or it is, as with the examples Faustian just offered, related one strand of his early work. I would suggest that we touch base with our readership -- on what basis is an average reader of Wikipedia most likely to be looking at Gogol's article? I suggest that that is, overwhelmingly, on the basis of The Government Inspector. If not that, then the stories "Diary of a Madman", "The Overcoat", "The Nose". As far as I am aware, none of those are treated in the standard literature as especially "Ukrainian". If that's a mistaken understanding, then I'm happy to examine the matter, but I suspect not. I have, as indicated, no interest in purging the article of any mention of "Ukrainian", only to restore it to the kind of emphasis it receives in standard histories of world literature.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 16:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, you're mistaking his biography for an analysis of his major works, and attempting to write it around how important you deem his body of work and themes of his work to be. This is not your personal essay analysing Gogol's work in order of major to minor works: it's a biography. This is not an encyclopaedia of literature or glossary: it's a general encyclopedia. I'm not sure as to how many times I need to restate this. I could speculate on why a reader would be looking up Gogol and suggest to you that it's most likely to be because of

speculate about why readers are here, or what they're looking for. If they're looking up The Government Inspector, "Diary of a Madman", "The Overcoat", "The Nose", or even the equally famous Taras Bulba, Wikipedia has articles on all of those individual works. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 22:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

standard histories of world literature are generally written by WASPs, whose ideas about Russia should be modernized.Xx236 (talk) 06:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Despite the sneering tone, Xx236, you are most probably correct about that. The point is that it is not Wikipedia's task to 'fight the good fight'. We merely reflect. When general surveys give such prominence to his ethnicity, then and only then would it become appropriate to reflect that here. Iryna Harpy, as I've already invited you to do so, you should consult the articles on other major writers of world literature to confirm that this page is not nor should not be merely a biography. And, as I have already pointed out, the current contents of the article is not exclusively concerned with a biographical account. On the contrary, analysis of the work out-numbers biography by something like a factor of 2.5:1. It has nothing to do with how important I imagine his works or his ethnicity to be. The relevant criteria are the emphases given in histories of world literature and world theatre. How many times does that require restating, do you imagine? To claim that Taras Bulba is in any way comparable in fame in world literature to The Government Inspector or the so-called 'Petersburg Tales' is one unsupported by the accounts of Gogol to which I have pointed, however much you may wish it were different.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 15:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The only editor here who seems to be following the path of

WP:CALC for the analysis component? Suggested reading: Hermann Hesse, Franz Kafka, plus virtually any known writers who are not from the Anglophone world. The parts of Empires they were from, their ethnicity, and major influences on their work (plus how they influenced other writers) are of paramount importance in order to set the context of their work. This has nothing to do with what I 'wish' for, but each individual's biography needs to take into account. I'd also be fascinated to know why you opened a DRN within less than 24 hours of your first edit on this article since 2011, treating it as something that could only be resolved by you, and calling on editors who haven't edited this article, who don't exist, and conflating it with the Chekhov article? --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 10:36, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

It is interesting that you cite precisely

the Wikipedia guidelines that your actions have violated. Once again, Wikipedia is not the place for you to fight the good fight, nor should this article read like it's underscored with O, Ukraine!. Once again, the appropriate comparision is with accounts of this article's subject given in non-biased sources, such as standard histories of world literature and world theatre, that are not part either of Russian imperialist nor Ukrainian nationalist struggles. As explained at some length above, I refered it to the wider Wikipedia community because the issue involves a political culture-war between the two nations and it is not appropriate for you or anyone else to use the article as a means to advance what you perceive to be progress in that struggle. I have little interest in a back-and-forth series of edits, since it was clear from your behaviour that you are invested in that wider cultural-political struggle. It requires help from editors who have no investment in either Russian or Ukrainian agendas. I have at no point argued that Gogol's ethnicity ought not to appear in the biographical sections of the article, nor that the extent to which that background has influenced some minor works ought not to be detailed. I have, from the start, argued that it is being given undue emphasis. The major works have, so far as I understand and so far as the general surveys indicate, little to do with his ethnicity. The estimate of 2.5 to 1 ratio was achieved via a word count of the relevant sections, which you are welcome to conduct for yourself if you believe it to be inaccurate. With regard to your suggestions for parallel cases (ignoring your obviously incorrect assumption that their non-"Anglophone" nature has anything to do with it), Kafka's social-cultural background is usually discussed at length in the standard surveys I've argued are the most appropriate point of comparison here. As explained at length above, when you and other scholars have succeeded in the good fight in which you are involved, and Gogol's ethnicity is mentioned to the same extent you are promoting here in those standard surveys, then and only then would it be appropriate for Wikipedia to reflect that. Until that time, this article is not an appropriate forum for you to advance your struggle, quite regardless of your (or my, for that matter) political sympathies with it.  • DP •  ^{huh?}

11:05, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Please don't be confused: there is no doubt about Gogol's ethnicity. The current squabble is about the cultural association of Gogol: whether he belongs to Russian or Ukrainian culture. This is not unique to russia vs ukraine. for example, Adam Mickiewicz is "claimed" by Belarus, Lithuania and Poland. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:45, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The squabble between the two countries is indeed over that matter, yes. The concerns raised above, however, are not.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 16:06, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

By remark was related to my recent edit of the lede. as for "concerns raised above -

tl;dr. i am surprized you still didn't learn how to resolve disputes like this: when large bold edit reverted, there is little sense in long rants, replied with even longer ones. Just do the same with the article, only slowly, and in small steps. Small differences are easy to analyze and reach consensus with. You will be surprized to find out that you will reach your goal even faster. - üser:Altenmann >t

02:28, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for you advice. When an article is involved in a wider political dispute, however, that strategy for improvement is unlikely to succeed in establishing an appropriately encyclopaedic tone. You are welcome to describe my comments as "rants". My comments are made without the emotional investment you presume.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 11:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

re "strategy... unlikely to succeed" - Don't be pessimistic. In any case it is better to discuss specific article content than wikipedians' intentions or Kafka. As for "rant", sorry, I was inappropriately ironic. The key word is

tl;dr. Let us discuss the disputed text. For example, you removed from the lede the piece around "...were influenced by his Ukrainian upbringing,... " - Please explain why you removed it. - üser:Altenmann >t

19:03, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The reasons are detailed in the section above, at some length. It's not pessimism, it's an awareness that editing an article caught up in an international political conflict is different from one that is not, requiring different strategies to achieve Wikipedia's aims. It's not a question of one particular disputed text but the use of the article to advance one side of that international conflict. If it could be said in a more concise way, then it would have been.  • DP •  ^{huh?} 13:11, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

This is not among valid reasons of deletion of content in wikipedia. - üser:Altenmann >t 18:50, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Why I removed the phrasing 'leading to his eventual exile' from the sentence about The Governemnt Inspector and Dead Souls (by this edit): Albeit certainly provoked in part by real and potential troubles with censorship or living in Russia in general, Gogol's exile is technically a voluntary one. And it cannot be said to be caused by Gogol writing The Revizor, not to mention Dead Souls, that is chronologically posterior to his leaving Russia in 1836. 'Eventual exile' is also awkward as Gogol did eventually come back to Russia. User talk:Lenny Olsen10:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

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I noted that the subject of homosexuality was vetoed. However, there is almost nothing there of his life. Certainly he is in an enigma and a mystery to many, and he had the imagination to create content that does not reveal anything of himself. But the parallels between Gogol the young man and the Overcoat should be mentioned.

What else of the man Gogol can we pick out of his works?

His relationship to food is well described in the Nabokov biography and I did locate one scholarly article on the topic. Food, Orality, and Nostalgia for Childhood: Gastronomic Slavophilism in Mid‐nineteenth‐Century Russian Fiction https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0036-0341.701999070

There are also letter collections published in Russian. Vladimir Nabokov included a few in his book. With one short story published, Gogol was still making a living as a clerk. He was a "chinovnik", going from one government office to another (page 26, Nabokov "Nikolai Gogol"). He attended art classes after putting in six hours "at the office." He claims to have lots of Ukrainian friends. No friend ever reported any love interests that Gogol had. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tero111 (talk • contribs) 18:52, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't really need Wikipedia to learn about Gogol, but it is nearly as disappointing as the college class I took on him. Except the section on style, which is excellent. In my class the professor took the normal "themes" approach. To me, the words jump out of the page and create a wonderful picture of life in 1800s. He had a way with words, not in any way limited by expected or previous fiction styles. His love for little Russians, peasants, is evident and the more pointed sarcasm and satire is directed at "important people."

As it is, the article would not encourage any new readers of Gogol. Tero111 (talk) 03:30, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@

reliably sourced content, not to attempt to 'demystify' him. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 06:06, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Iryna! I fail to see why Wikipedia would cover any fiction writers in that case. Fiction does not deal with facts. It should be essential to discuss the writer and his back ground to get some idea of the life of a historical figure. We can do this with Shakespeare, why not Gogol. I really do not see any point in having articles on writers at all beyond a list of works. Tero111 (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi,

WP:OFFTOPIC details about his purported disposition, his appearance, et al. As for detail, there's hardly a paucity of detail about his life and influences in this content already. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 20:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I've put in a blog entry for Gogol in a blog I don't actually use anymore. The text there is an attempt to carve a more colorful caricature and a short introduction to Gogol. It has no references or any factual infromation, more a broad portrait from many sources. http://esajii.blogspot.com/2018/07/nikolai-gogol.html Tero111 (talk) 11:50, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Ukrainian culture and language existed long before the Russian Empire spread into the territory of ethnic Ukrainians. How can a descendant of Ukrainian Cossacks and a Polish mother all of a sudden acquire a Russian nationality? If an African person learns to speak English, does that make him British? Being born in the Russian Empire doesn't make anyone Russian. This is an American concept that doesn't translate at all. As proof, a Jewish person born anywhere in the Russian Empire or in Soviet Union didn't have "Russian" listed in their passport under "nationality" and the same goes for Ukrainians. USchick (talk) 17:29, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I'm changing his nationality. USchick (talk) 02:09, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, Poltava Governorate is in Left-bank Ukraine which at one time was under Polish control and then under Russian control. It has been Left-bank Ukraine since 1663, a century before he was born. USchick (talk) 02:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

To add to that "Russian Empire" (as currently listed next to "Nationality") is not a nationality. It is either Russian or Ukrainian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.25.21.237 (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Why there is no Urkainian version of the name (Mikola) in introduction? Ithink it is usual for "shared" persons like Gogol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.253.214.187 (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

For starters, the transliteration would be 'Mykola'. In answer to your question, however,

WP:COMMONNAME applies. He is known as 'Nikolai Gogol', or sometimes 'Nikolay Gogol', in the English language. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 21:45, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok Mykola. Still read as Mikola. Old Croatian had y. It`s just I written as y. But "shared" persons often have two names put in introduction. So first how he is called in the English language, than Russian and Ukrainian version ,as both nations claim him to be part of their legacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.236.21 (talk) 15:39, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

No, in Ukrainian, the "и" is transliterated as "y", and is pronounced as the soft 'i' as it was during Gogol's time, also. As to whether his Ukrainian name belongs here, there have been debates over his ethnicity and differentiating between writing in Russian Empire and ethnicity. There needs to be a discussion as to whether it is

WP:DUE to include his Ukrainian name along with his Russian name. --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 20:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I didn`t refer to chirilic script. Y or i is the same in Slavic languages. Read as i in milk. For example some Slavs write vysoko, some visoko. Same word, same meaning. High. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.239.23 (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Ukrainian has two phonemes /i/ and /ɪ/, written with two letters <і> and <и>, always transcribed with i and y. See romanization of Ukrainian. The Ukrainian name is Mykola. —Michael Z. 16:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I've had enough of this edit warring and adding non-existent information from Encyclopaedia Britannica. Ушкуйник, I don't know where you keep getting this Polen (Polish) gentry business from, but can only assume that you are confusing Poltava with Polish: it's completely unrelated other than consisting of the root word for 'field' in Eastern Slavic languages.

It would also be appreciated if you would stop doubling up on the self same reference to EB as is already in place as your reference. Try reading the EB entry carefully. There is nothing about Polen (EB is not a German publication) or Poland in there. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Again, please stop the POV pushing of content. The fact that the Anglophone world is unclear on Gogol's background and has assumed him to be a "Russian writer" because he contributed to "Russian literature" is a misnomer which can be backed up by numerous uninformed Anglophone sources of the past (not the present). Robert Burns wrote in the English language (which was, and remains, the lingua franca), as did Dylan Thomas, Walter Scott and George Bernard Shaw. They are, however, identified by their ethnicity as being Scottish, Welsh, Scottish and Irish (in order of mentions).

As for the Polish-Ukrainian nobility, it didn't mean that he had a drop of Polish blood in him as you would well know: it's merely a hark-back to being part of the

cherry picking bits and pieces in order to shoehorn a Russian identity (as you've been doing on a number of articles surrounding Ruthenian/Ukrainian notables). --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 00:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• • Dear Iryna Harpy, see about Gogol's background: 1. Poltava has nothing to do with the problem of Gogol's Ukrainian-Polish origin, I don't understand, why we speak here about Poltava at all. Ушкуйник (talk) 23:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
  • P.S. It's a great pity, that you don't know the history of left-bank Ukraine. Left-bank Ukraine was not "annexed to the Russian Empire", as you think. Actually, Russian Empire doesn't existed before 1721. Left-bank Ukraine was incorporated in Tsardom of Russia in 17. Century. Ушкуйник (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Would you care to elaborate on how it was 'incorporated'? Which part are you referring to:

historical consequences of the Treaty of Pereyaslav? Or are you confusing it with the political strategies deployed in order to complete the job of 'annexation' (obliteration of the Hetmanate) during the time of Elizabeth of Russia (Russian Empire)? --Iryna Harpy (talk

) 01:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and if you want to use an essay by Edyta M. Bojanowska (from which you've

cherry picked the use of 'Polish' in his background), perhaps you should take a look at her 2007 publication, "Nikolai Gogol - Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism". Even better, read her current article "All the King’s Horses: Ukraine, Russia, and Gogol’s Troika"

for a better sense of the mythological creation known as "Russia" in the Russian psyche itself, which has been echoed in the Anglophone world (what she calls "Russia’s Never-neverland") and being resurrected at a bizarre rate in Putin's RF.

You still don't seem to be able to differentiate between a Ukrainian ethnic writing in Russian for a Russian audience (because there was no other audience to write for within the Russian Empire), and a Russian writer by ethnicity. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Gogol is without a doubt Ukrainian. I could easily come up the as much sources saying that he is Ukrainian that you come up with saying that he is Russian. To put it in historical context, Gogol was considered to be "Little Russian", which we all know was the chauvinistic Russian imperial way to say "Ukrainian". The most telling fact about Gogol's identity is that he wrote in the Ukrainian language! I have never encountered a non-Ukrainian who contributed to Ukrainian literature. There are many Ukrainians currently in Ukraine that identify as Ukrainians, yet speak Russian. Who are you to tell them that they are not Ukrainian? The facts that he spoke Ukrainian, AND contemporary sources called him Ukrainian indicate that Gogol was a Ukrainian writer who wrote in Russian. --BoguSlav 05:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• • • • Dear Iryna Harpy, your speech about Never-neverland looks like some kind of sublimation, it is really fun. It looks like I would say something about historical chimera of Ukrainian identity :-) But if we speak seriously, firstly, all your historical inferences are irrelevant, they have nothing to do with the problem of Gogol's selfidentity. Gogol had Little Russian identity, which is complement with so called Great Russian identity, and only partly could be complement with Ukrainian identity, that's why there are some confrontations between Gogol and Shevchenko (sic! - Gogol criticized Shevchenko for using Ukrainian language in literature), Linnichenko and Hrushevsky (historical confrontation between Little Russians and Ukrainians), Savenko and Bagaley (political confrontation between Little Russians and Ukrainias) ets.
      • Also, such figures as Gogol, Linnichenko, Savenko, Storozhenko etc. were Little Russians, they had Little Russian identity, they realized themselves not as Ukrainian nation, but as subethnic group of Russians along with Great Russians and White Russians. So they thought (including Gogol), that they have regional culture, but this culture is not foreign to all Russians. That's why Gogol write: "We Little Russians and Great Russians need a common poetry, a calm, strong and everlasting poetry of truth, goodness and beauty. The Little and the Great Russian are the souls of twins who complement each other, who are closely related and equally strong. It is impossible to prefer one of them at the cost of the other". In this connection Edyta M. Bojanowska is right, that Gogol is between Ukrainian and Russian nationalism. The problem is, that in modern sense his identity was not clear Russian, or clear Ukrainian. But in fact Gogol wanted to make from his regional culture a spring for the whole Russian national culture, that's why he criticized Shevchenko with his Ukrainian poesy. Also Gogol should be recognized as Russian writer, although ethnically he was of Ukrainian-Polish origin. We can dispute long time about the problem of Little Russian identity, but in context of literature there is only one important fact: Gogol tried to come to synthesis of Little Russian and Great Russian culture and he wrote all his works in Russian, so his literature is Russian literature. In this connection is absolutely correct Britannica (Gogol was a Ukrainian-born Russian writer). In same way we can say for example, that Mykola Petrov (1840-1921) from Kostroma was an important Ukrainian historian (sic!) regardless of his Russian ethnicity, because he wrote about Ukraine and in Ukrainian language.
      • Secondly, your version of preamble "Ukrainian Russian-language writer" is absolutely ridiculous. You will not find such characteristic of Gogol in any respectable Encyclopedia. According to your logic we should write: "Vyacheslav Lypynsky - Polish Ukrainian-language writer", "Vera Ann Farmiga - Ukrainian English-language actress", "Mykola Petrov - Russian Ukrainian-language historian". No, such a way we can come only to Absurdopeia: Gogol is Russian writer, Shevchenko is Ukrainian poet, Vyacheslav Lypynsky is Ukrainian national theoretic, Vera Ann Farmiga is American actress, Mykola Petrov is Ukrainian historian. Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 14:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
      • P.S. Thirdly, (just information for meditation) in my school in Kiev, Ukraine (sic!) Gogol was in course of foreign literature.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ушкуйник (talk • contribs) 14:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

"my school in Kiev" I don't think that can be considered a reliable source. USchick (talk) 04:31, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• • • • Dear USchick, "my school in Kiev" - is not a reliable source, it's just a remark ;-) Ушкуйник (talk) 13:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

All of your comments are unsourced personal opinions that shouldn't be the basis of Wikipedia edits.Faustian (talk) 01:45, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Ушкуйник, I guess your argument boils down to "Gogol is Russian because he wrote in Russian". Using this logic, you are an Englander (or American/Canadian/Australian/etc) because you contribute in the English language.--BoguSlav 03:45, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear BoguSlav, it is very bad try of Sophistik. I write in English, because it is English version of Wikipedia, but (sic!) I am not citizen of English-speaking land and I don't write a roman here. My arguments:

1) Gogol was born in Russian Empire, he lived in Russian Empire, he died in Moscow and he was Russian citizen;

2) He wrote all his works in Russian language and criticized Shevchenko for using Ukrainian language in literature;

3) For all reliable English Encyclopaedia's Gogol is Russian writer, see: 1 - Britannica, 2 - Encyclopedia of Ukraine, 3, 4, 5 and stop this absurd. Ушкуйник (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the formulation from Encyclopedia Brittanica: Ukrainian-born Russian-language author. I once wrote an essay Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Ethno-cultural labels in biographies that I still stand for. Gogol is not might be a Ukrainian person or a Ukrainian celebrity but he is not a Ukrainian writer since he did not wrote any significant works in Ukrainian was not a part of a Ukrainian literary school or even a supporter of Ukrainian independence. Since Russian writer is confusing lets use the formulation from Brittanica (that also stayed in the articles for ages) Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:13, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian-born can be taken to mean he was simply a Russian born in Ukraine. And Britannica also describes him as "A member of the petty Ukrainian gentry" [12]. So clearly, he was a Ukrainian but also a Russian rather than a Ukrainian writer (meaning, he wrote in the Russian language and was part of Russia's not Ukraine's literary scene). The trick is to write this without implying that he was an ethnic Russian, or that he was a Ukrainian literary figure because both would be misleading. Why not simply "ethnic Ukrainian?" Also the themes of his early works were clearly Ukrainian. Consider Joseph Conrad?Faustian (talk) 06:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the Joseph Conrad parallel works here. Gogol's earlier works were thematically Ukrainian-based, but he certainly didn't write/publish anything in Ukrainian. Thematically, aside from Taras Bulba, his work did revolve around Russian identity (which is comparable to his peers in various empires exploring national identities in a growing consciousness of a national 'mythology' for themselves and to present to the world).

Well, this is a biography, so it wouldn't be appropriate to turn it into a comparative cultural and critical theory piece. This still leaves us with the problem of how to represent his ethnicity without turning it being undue. It never ceases to astound me that the simplest constructs can be the most difficult to write. It requires extremely precise wording without sounding strained. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear all, according to this document (see: Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Ethno-cultural labels in biographies) the preamble should be written (like Alex Bakharev has written) this way: Nikolai Gogol is a Ukrainian-born Russian writer. Specially for Faustian, who thinks, that Ukrainian-born can be taken to mean he was simply a Russian born in Ukraine, we can change it to: Nikolai Gogol is a Russian writer of Ukrainian origin/ethnicity.

Another examples of such falls: Daniel Pennac is a French writer of Corsican origin, or a Corsican-born French writer; Alexandre Kojève is a French writer of Russian origin, or a Russian-born French philosopher; Vyacheslav Lypynsky is a Ukrainian writer of Polish origin; Léon Poliakov is a French historian of Russian Jewish origin and so on.

Why I am against the current version of preamble?

1) Because there is no any reliable Encyclopedia, which use such characteristic in preamble like "an ethnic Ukrainian, Russian-language dramatist". All information about ethnicity could be important, but it means not, that this information should be written in preamble, because not his ethnicity is the subject of the article (See for example Theodor W. Adorno - he is a German philosopher regardless of his ethnicity, although his ethnicity is important to understand some of his philosophical themes and ideas). For all Encyclopedia’s, even for Encyclopedia of Ukraine Gogol is in preamble just a Ukrainian-born Russian writer. See again: Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Of course it means not, that it should not be written about the role of his Ukrainian cultural references in the article, but it doesn't matter for preamble.

2) Secondly, according to the current version of preamble, we should change preambles of all above-mentioned figures from my examples. For example Vyacheslav Lypynsky wrote his famous work Z dziejów Ukrainy in Polish language. Should we write then in preamble, that he was a Polish writer, or a Polish person, who wrote in Ukrainian? No. Or maybe we should write, that Alexandre Kojève was a Russian philosopher? Hardly it is right.

3) In fall of Gogol we speak not only about his Russian language, we also speak about his Russian citizenship, his society and even his self-identity etc. So it is just not right to reduce all these references to language, that’s why the only right way to describe his fall is to write about him as about Russian writer of Ukrainian, or Ukrainian-Polish origin, (sic!) avoid linking the label Russian to Russia or Russian, but link to the Russian literature.

So I insist, that the only right way to write this preamble is such:

Gogol is a Russian writer from a noble family of Ukrainian origin/or: of Ukrainian-Polish origin.

Best regards, Ушкуйник (talk) 14:26, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I concur with

WP:OPENPARA Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. I do not think that Gogol's Ukrainian ethnicity is relevant to his notability (that if he had been an ethnic Russian, Pole or German, he would have beeen less notable). from a noble family of Ukrainian origin is a nice way to get around this requirement and still satisfy people keeping scores of "our people" agains "their people". Alex Bakharev (talk

) 02:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity is more accurate than origin because the latter may indicate distant descent; also - the themes of his early works were very Ukrainian so his Ukrainian upbringing and ethnicity are relevant. But it's a good solution.Faustian (talk) 04:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Without understanding Gogol’s Ukrainian identity you cannot understand Gogol and his writing, and therefore you cannot fully understand the literature of the Russian empire. Please try to read the introduction to Edyta M. Bojanowska, 2007, Nikolai Gogol: Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism.[13] —Michael Z. 04:35, 6 April 2021 (UTC) by

This edit request to Nikolai Gogol has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The title of Dreizin & Guaspari book should be corrected to 'The Russian Soul and the Jew: Essays in Literary Ethnocriticism'. (in the discussion of antisemitism in the 'Influences' section, currently it incorrectly says 'Literary Ethnocentrism') Nightmare-adventurist (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Already done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 11:36, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

He is Ukrainian, he wrote mostly in Russian but he is ethnically ukrainian and grew up speaking ukrainian. It’s more important than ever to correct this 2A05:9CC4:7A:BE2E:286D:30CB:9A67:694E (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

The Gogol Center (German: Gogol Zentrum) in Moskow closed on Thursday evening 30 June 2022 after a last theater show (title, German: Ich beteilige mich nicht am Krieg. I do not participate in the war. Director: Kirill Serebrennikow. Author: from Ukraine. Based on poetry by Jury/Juri Levitansky

"One of the best theatres of the continent." ORF, ticker, 3 July 2022.

https://orf.at/live/5237/ Russland: Aus für regimekritisches Gogol-Zentrum. 3 July 2022

The City of Moskow will rename the house (again, as until 2012) to Nikolai Gogol Theatre and establish a conform team.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/30/kirill-serebrennikovs-gogol-center-closed-a78154

https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2022/07/01/im-not-part-of-this-war-play-marks-moscows-gogol-centre-closure-news : I'm not part of this war.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220701-rebel-moscow-theatre-shuts-doors-after-final-show

Helium4 (talk) 03:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that his name is changed to "Mykola Hohol", because Hohol never referred to himself as a Russian, he considered himself Ukrainian (which he was). Also, he met the same oppression as other Ukrainian authors even after moving to Moscow and writing in Russian . He was called the same slurs Russians used for every Ukrainian person.

It is disrespectful not only to Mykola Hohol, but to Ukrainian people too, seeing as how Russia always stole our culture and history. By describing him as a "Russian" author you are feeding into Kremlin propaganda narratives.
I am writing this message with utmost respect, I am not trying to "vandalize" this page, all I want is to bring justice and recognition to Mykola Hohol's nationality, origins and views on himself.
Thank you, I hope you will consider my message and see where I am coming from. Софія Макусій (talk) 12:00, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

This is not how Wikipedia works. Mellk (talk) 23:36, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The latinized ukrainian name for the writer would be Mykola Hohol. Since he is a ukrainian writer most of all, it seems a bit weird and almost disrespectful to use the russian name for him. Synycia (talk) 05:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

See

WP:COMMONNAME. Mellk (talk

) 21:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

To change the nationality for Ukrainian 2A02:1210:542A:FF00:F8F4:E59B:C742:1BEF (talk) 15:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Kolya1384:,

Special:Diff/1114230204, your Revision as of 13:00, 5 October 2022, has this edit summary:

"Nikolai Gogol considered himself as being Ukrainian as evidenced by its inscription in French in the register of the Carlserg senatorium in 1845. Quoted here : Kirill Postoutenko et Natasha Drubek-Meyer, « Gogol's eloquentia corporis: Einverleibung, Identitaet und die Grenzen der Figuration », The Slavic and East European Journal, vol. 44, no 2, 2000, p. 95"

In the revision you describe Gogol as Ukrainian and cite this reference:

Kirill Postoutenko et Natasha Drubek-Meyer, « Gogol's eloquentia corporis: Einverleibung, Identitaet und die Grenzen der Figuration », The Slavic and East European Journal, vol. 44, no 2, 2000, p. 95

Unfortunately, The Slavic and East European Journal, vol. 44, no. 2, 2000 (the Summer issue) is page-numbered 177-374. It has no page 95. Page 95 of vol. 44 falls in no. 1 (the Spring issue) and is part of the article "Faulty Consciousnesses: Milan Kundera's The Joke". Gogol is not mentioned at all on page 95 of vol 44.

Vol. 44, no. 2 does have an article on Gogol on pp. 319-320, but it is not by Kirill Postoutenko and Natasha Drubek-Meyer but by Kirill Postoutenko alone. It is a review of Drubek-Meyer's book "Gogol's eloquentia corporis: Einverleibung, Identitaet und die Grenzen der Figuration". Postoutenko's review describes Gogol as a Russian author on p. 319:

Natasha Drubek-Meyer applies this reconstructive approach (mostly in its psychological version) to a widely known yet barely explained phenomenon of Russian culture -- the retreat of the main Russian writers (Gogol, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky) from literature."

The review does not mention the Carlserg senatorium or the year 1845 at all.

Please, what

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 04:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello,

Indeed, it was a mistake quoting this source as the citation quoted is not the book itself, but a resume of the book.

The good reference is : Natascha Drubek-Meyer, Gogol’s eloquentia corporis Einverleibung, Identität

und die Grenzen der Figuration, München 1998, p. 95.

You can check it out here : https://www.academia.edu/1031316/Gogols_eloquentia_corporis_Einverleibung_Identit%C3%A4t_und_die_Grenzen_der_Figuration_M%C3%BCnchen_1998 Kolya1384 (talk) 07:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Kolya1384,

Thank you for sorting that out for us! I will defer to you and the other German-language editors to decide how this German-language reference fits in with the previous references which describe Gogol as a Russian writer.

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 18:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not a German speaker, and can only understand some very basic stuff, but a quick glance at that book makes this look like cherrypicking. That page does contain a quote from the Almanach de Carlsbad where Gogol is listed as a "Ukrainian living in Moscow". However, in the very next page, the author (in her voice) states that Gogol conceived of the Russian people as a whole, an Orthodox community (Gemeinschaft) composed of the Great Russian (i.e. Russian), White Russian (i.e. Belarusian) and Little Russian (i.e. Ukrainian) peoples, and that in his conception of Russia as an "Empire [perhaps realm would be better?] of the spirit" Gogol left "no place for a nationalist particularism of the ethnic subgroups", and on this note she goes on to quote another Russian-Ukrainian, Dmitry Ovsianiko-Kulikovsky, who claimed (and this I can read!) "При малорусском происхождении он был по национальности не малоросс, а общерус" (of Little Russian origin, he was by nationality not a Little Russian, but an All-Russian [perhaps "General Russian", but it sounds weird]. Emphasis in the book). Now the entire section is devoted or so it appears to how Ukraine's influence is reflected in his work (in particular on Evenings on a farm near Dikanka), which is something universally recognised and reflected in the article. I do not think the author is suggesting that Gogol considered himself Ukrainian instead of Russian, or anything of the sort. //Edit - needless to say, if someone who's fluent in German wants to read the book and see if he finds something more concrete, I'd very much welcome that, but the current situation is someone quoting a primary source (which goes against wiki policies) from inside a secondary source and removing all context and analysis/interpretation from it, and then attributing the whole thing to the author, all of which is inadmissible.Ostalgia (talk) 17:38, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

because Hohol is Ukrainian writer and his name writes in the rules transliteration from Ukrainian to English languages. 89.28.207.91 (talk) 18:52, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• Take your ultranationalism out of Wikipedia, please. The article's current name is based on
  talk
  00:08, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  @

  WP:BITE the newbies, especially by calling them Nazis or whatever. —Michael Z

  . 03:11, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  • I am surprised by how much endurance enwiki users have. If enwiki allows purely
    talk
    03:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

    I appreciate that you linked to the relevant guideline. That alone would have been better.  —Michael Z. 03:34, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

The text bolded here: His fictional story Taras Bulba, based on the history of Zaporozhian Сossacks.... links to Zaporozhian Host although the Taras Bulba article itself links directly to Zaporozhian Cossacks when first mentioned. Is this intentional? —Matuko (talk) 21:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done  The article is a better link target than the disambiguation page. Thanks.  —Michael Z. 00:59, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Nikolai Gogol has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

CHANGE: the Alexandrinsky Theatre in St. Petersbrug, TO: the Alexandrinsky Theatre in St. Petersburg, DLDL1964 (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Good catch! Lizthegrey (talk) 19:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

> fc/b 1 2
Comparing files
00000006: 69 79

> cmp -bl 1 2
 7 151 i    171 y

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2023

This edit request to Nikolai Gogol has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Should we shorten this short description to {{short description|Russian writer (1809–1852)}} that exceed more than 40 characters. 112.204.223.162 (talk) 23:10, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It seems, based on the content of the article, that his Ukrainian origin is important to his writings. The article and its sources reference multiple times the fact that many of his works both drew from and had an impact on Ukrainian culture - I think the six extra characters here is fine. Tollens (talk) 23:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)