Talk:Nagano (city)

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Olympics

I've heard Nagano was the southern-most Olympic venue. Can anybody confirm? Include it? Tony "Shot Put" Soprano 07:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I figure you obviously mean southern-most Winter Olympic venue. ;P And whaddya know -- just looked at the latitudes for each Winter Olympics (slow day here at work), and at 36°38 N it seems to be. Next closest (south) would be Squaw Valley at 39°11 N. Drcwright 23:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename?

I suggest this article be renamed to "Nagano City," with "Nagano, Nagano" redirecting to it. You can observe a similar usage for Gaza City and especially New York City. YechielMan 21:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed many times, most recently
here. The basic consensus seems to be that the move (reverse of redirects) to Nagano would be supported, but you will not find much support for Nagano City (or XYZ City for any city in Japan). Neier 08:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

12 March 2011 quake

Should the 2011 March 12 6.6 earthquake be mentioned in the article? 184.144.160.156 (talk) 08:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

with all respect to the victims of the earthquake and tsunami in tohoku, i don't see why it needs to be mentioned here. Especially not in the opening paragraph. --Popoi (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed that blurb. Even if there had been damage from the earthquake, it shouldn't have been in the lead paragraph to begin with. purplepumpkins (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 July 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move
. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is a consensus against this specific proposal, and no clear consensus for any of the alternatives raised in the discussion; a separate proposal to move the title to a different means of disambiguation might fare better. bd2412 T 13:27, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PTOPIC for "Nagano". feminist (talk) 03:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

@
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:46, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Undid above change, Nagano should not be moved until this RM is closed, as it is the desired target of this RM. Natg 19 (talk) 06:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Natg 19: Umm ... it's not a "move" but a retargeting of the redirect. "the desired target of this RM" is dubious, given that most of the "support" !votes in this RM so far have actually specifically stated that the OP's proposal would be a step in the wrong direction and the actual desired target is something along the lines of Nagano (city). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my wording may have been incorrect, but as a procedural matter, the target of Nagano should stay as is until the RM is completed, and a consensus has been fully reached. Natg 19 (talk) 17:47, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MALPLACED work queue. wbm1058 (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, that needs to happen anyway, as per my recent request for assistance at
WT:JAPAN the way that Nagano link has been used up to this point implies that it should either be the prefecture article or the disambig article; links intended for the city article are rare. But I'll wait. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Support
    WP:PRECISION, undisambiguated name already redirects here, "Nagano Prefecture" would not appear to be called just "Nagano". If its not the primary topic then the DAB should be moved to "Nagano". Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • A Google search from England returns Nagano, Nagano first, then the prefecture, however as the prefecture page is linked on the top of Nagano, Nagano and they both refer to the same place,
    WP:CONCEPTDAB might apply, especially if the prefecture is named after the city, see Oxford/Oxfordshire and Hartlepool/Borough of Hartlepool for example. And in the case of Durham/County Durham the city only has about 5% of the population of the county. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:07, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Also noteworthy, there was a previous discussion of this sort of move proposal in 2014 that was fairly extensive:
    Talk:Nara, Nara#Requested move. Both of these resulted in retaining the titles with the commas. Dekimasuよ! 10:10, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I would be fine with Nagano as the location of the disambiguation page. Dekimasuよ! 18:55, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think there's a primary topic, so the city should remain where it is and Nagano (disambiguation) should be moved to the base term. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:10, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – the City, Subdivision format only applies to
    the United States, Canada and other federations where there is no primary topic. CookieMonster755✉ 02:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose - unless the change is to redirect Nagano to a disambiguation page. This issue has been discussed at length on many other municipality articles, as well as WP:MOS-JP. The city of Nagano and the prefecture of Nagano have a equally valid claim to being the primary topic. --MChew (talk) 07:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the use of the common name of the city. Simple and clear. 83.228.159.212 (talk) 16:08, 20 July 2018 (UTC).[reply]
  • Oppose. Well, once again, this is also the common name of the prefecture, and neither is the primary topic. Since there is a quite a bit of !voting going on, I will go ahead and oppose this change, although I am in favor of moving the disambiguation page Nagano (disambiguation) to the base title. Dekimasuよ! 16:46, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is silly to argue over whether the city or the prefecture is more important. Neither is in these cases, barring evidence that's abundantly clear based on English usage (i.e. Hiroshima and Nagasaki). There isn't a primary topic here based on page views, either, except when the Olympics roll around and there is a spike in visitors to 1998 Winter Olympics (which, for that matter, took place in a variety of venues aside from the city). Dekimasuよ! 17:22, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks for responding. It seems to me that the guideline is well-intentioned, and looks totally reasonable, which it is, just as long as "disambiguation" means distinguishing the Yada in Nada from the Yada in Wada. But in this case the repeated title "Yada, Yada" is trying to distinguish the Yada in Yada from the Yada which the Yada in Yada is in. This is not exactly lucid. I support Margin's suggestion: Nada and Wada should have "Prefecture" after them (although I hate that word). (Yeah, of course I know: Delaware is that plastic box stuff you keep miso in.) Imaginatorium (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose (Thank you
    Nagano City (the "official" name of the city equivalent to "Nagano Prefecture") or Nagano (city). There is also apparently an assumption with a number of these RMs that if the base title currently redirects to one of the articles, that article must be the PRIMARYTOPIC, which is inherently fallacious (and actually is to some degree self-fulfilling, since targeting readers to a page they probably are not looking for will artificially inflate the view-count of that page relative to the other pages they are more likely to be looking for. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Also (and I just realized this now) the proposed title would aggravate the already-disastrous problem of disambig links being redirected to this article when they are meant to go to Nagano Prefecture. And said links, as well as the bogus linking of the base title to this article, may be artificially inflating the page-views of this article so that on en.wiki this article has 20% more views than the prefecture article, whereas on ja.wiki the prefecture article has 300% more views than the city article.[1] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:29, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just went up the discussion, and all of the "support" !votes are either saying that it is more "precise" to use the less specific proposed title or arguing that because the current title is sub-optimal the proposed title is superior.
Nagano City", I would be happy to follow suit. You wrote I don't want to get involved in whether 長野県 or 長野市 deserves the simply "Nagano" title, but by supporting the proposed title rather than any of the alternatives that is essentially what you are doing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Just to be clear, the
Talk:Hachinohe, Aomori, where similar issues have been raised relating to Gifu. I have not done any canvassing related to this request. Dekimasuよ! 22:52, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Sorry. Yes. No canvassing. It would have rather been questionable if Dekimasu had consciously decided not to tell me, for whatever reason, that an issue I had expressed an interest in was being discussed here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:57, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, I should also clarify that I left a neutral note at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles. I should update that now to reflect the fact that the Gifu discussion took place. Dekimasuよ! 22:59, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support almost any move from the current title per
    Nagano City are options. —  AjaxSmack  03:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I think we agree. The problem (as Dekimasu pointed out) is that by saying "Support" you are automatically supporting one particular (suboptimal) new title; better to "Oppose", but support changing to Nagano+city, whether parenthesised or not. Imaginatorium (talk) 04:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note A bunch, perhaps most, of the hundreds of pages currently linking to
    Nagano City article when we should be sending them to the Nagano Prefecture article, there's a fair chance they might not realize something is wrong. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The default should be the city, unless a more specific event/venue is mentioned, in which case disambiguate to the more specific location of the venue. wbm1058 (talk) 13:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the links (in this and other cases–Kumamoto, Fukuoka, Okayama, etc.–need to be fixed either way, there having been to this point been nothing to indicate clear problems with being linked in the form of "Hakuba, Nagano, Japan". Or just simply linked plainly even when there is something else in the article to indicate that this is incorrect. I found one such link in a few seconds in the opening line of Daijiro Matsui. Switched to Kumamoto and immediately found another at Masahiro Araki. Switched to Fukuoka and right away there was Shōji Yonemura. It doesn't look like this is being maintained very well under the current system. Dekimasuよ! 19:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"
Hakuba, Nagano. wbm1058 (talk) 19:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

American cities and states named the same

This section is an extended response to "the Yada, Yada format for titles is too silly for words. The second Yada does not disambiguate anything, because it simply reiterates the first Yada." This is not correct. While it is uncommon for US places to share the name of the state that they're located in, with one very notable exception –

WP:USPLACE, articles on populated places in the United States are typically titled Placename, State (the "comma convention"); there is no rule stating that the name on the left side of the comma needs to differ from the name on the right. wbm1058 (talk) 15:20, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

I stand by what I said. I only went down the left column, but most of these are redlinks, and almost all the rest are redirects. Almost all of the geographical ones are actually titled Yada City, Yada. The only title which is Yada, Yada is Georgia, Georgia, which is the title of a film. Imaginatorium (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You mean that Maine City, Maine really is the main city of Maine, not Maine, Maine, the unincorporated village? wbm1058 (talk) 17:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did go through in the end, and there is exactly one example of Yada, Yada, which is the Maine one. I have never, ever, to my knowledge, during 30 years living in Japan heard anyone say "Yada, Yada"... well, I mean "Nagano, Nagano", or "Tochigi, Tochigi". It is an abomination. Imaginatorium (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So what would be the better way to disambiguate, when there is no context for differentiation other than the title itself. Nagano (city) and Nagano City seem to be the viable alternatives. Comparing with New York, which may or may not be a good point of reference, I feel like New York City, New York is more the abomination. New York City is the common name, but the "comma convention" is used for the official name which is New York. I see there are many links to New York City, New York, so not everyone apparently shares my view that "City" is redundant there. That form is kind of a conflation of the common and official name. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The disambiguation is not between Yada in Nada or Wada (see above); it is between the city of Nagano and the prefecture of Nagano. The obvious way to achieve this is to write Nagano (city) or Nagano (prefecture). But an unparenthesised "Nagano City" would also surely be reasonable. Imaginatorium (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
cf.
WP:SMALLDETAILS), but it's unlikely that this reflects English usage, and still does not distinguish Kōchi from either Kōchi, Hiroshima or Kōchi Prefecture. These are not great examples, but they speak to the advantages of maintaining a consistent system of disambiguation. Dekimasuよ! 18:55, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I'm cool with either
Kawachinagano, Osaka is doubly, and unnecessarily, disambiguated). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, Kawachinagano was never "Nagano-shi" before the Kawachi was appended (not to mention that most readers will be unfamiliar with Kawachi Province). But whatever disambiguation system is used shouldn't require editors or readers to know things like that. Dekimasuよ! 00:16, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And thanks for bringing up Ibaraki, Ibaraki, which is a better example. Dekimasuよ! 00:19, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I know, and I'm not suggesting we can't use "Nagano City" because it doesn't fully disambiguate. What I meant was that we need to either (a) come up with a guideline that can adequately address all these problems and not introduce unnecessary double-disambiguation like Rikuzentakata, Iwate (I actually don't know many people from Kawachinagano, but locals in Rikuzentakata frequently just call their town "Takata" because that's the "actual" name, with "Rikuzen" having been inserted to distinguish it from all the other Takatas -- this is visible in the famous Takata-matsubara) or (b) deal with all such pages on a case-by-case basis for the same reason. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to close?

Was gonna post the following on ANRFC, but it doesn't appear to have a section for RMs, so I wasn't sure if I was violating procedure. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Nagano, Nagano#Requested move 18 July 2018

{{Initiated|03:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)}} 9 opposes, 5 supports, but of the 5 supports all have had their reasoning challenged and either (a) acknowledged that they don't actually support the proposed move but a change to the status quo of some sort or not responded. There is an obvious fix for the problem, but it requires an unrelated page move (Nagano (disambiguation) → Nagano), which if it doesn't have consensus already (it's basically unopposed) will probably need a new discussion opened after the current one is closed, so the sooner the current RM gets closed the better. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move
. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 29 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Although there is some opposition, saying the current arrangment is OK, there are enough support and neutral voices that a rough consensus to move seems to be found.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Further note (following request on my talk page) - there was some talk in the discussion about the need for a wider consensus on naming for cities which share the same name as their state, and hence end up with seemingly unsatisfactory titles such as "Nagano, Nagono", "Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo" or "New York, New York". It seems like such this larger discussion about other such titles would be beneficial, and I encourage participants to initiate that at the appropriate forum.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:20, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Nagano City was better. Please indicate which you prefer. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Pinging participants in previous discussion: User:Curly Turkey, User:Cuchullain, User:Certes, User:Dekimasu, User:Wbm1058, User:Imaginatorium, User:Natg, User:AjaxSmack, User:Margin1522, User:Feminist, User:83.228.159.212, User:MChew, User:CookieMonster755, User:Xezbeth, User:Crouch, Swale. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Support "Nagano (city)" I seem to recall reading somewhere, although I can't find it at
    WP:ATDAB on a quick scan right now, that natural disambiguation was superior to parenthetical, but "Nagano City" just feels a bit too much like translationese for my tastes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
@Curly Turkey: I honestly don't know. In my experience getting consensus to amend a widely-observed guideline first and then attempting to implement the change via RMs doesn't work very well and just wastes time;[2] getting consensus on an RM or two and then citing those as precedent in a later mass-RM works a lot better.[3] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:34, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RMs tend to bring a variety of seasoned opinions, so this discussion can be a stepping stone to a wider discussion. If this move fails, then the point is moot. —  AjaxSmack  16:39, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support almost any move from the current title, and specifically, "
    natural") is not accurate. That leaves "Nagano (city)" as the best choice (cf. Cork [city]). —  AjaxSmack  16:39, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
@
Nagano City, but rather just trying to best establish what arguments are being made for and against each of the options. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Both are simply titled Nagano, and they use subtitles to disambiguate. A feature Wikipedia doesn't have. wbm1058 (talk) 18:56, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Let me just answer the question about addressing etc: 長野 is "Nagano"; 市 is "-shi" (city), and 県 is "-ken" ("prefecture"). An address would go 長野県長野市 (bigendian, just concatenated). In conversation, well, I live in Tochigi(-ken), but not in Tochigi-shi (city). I hear city names used "bare" all the time, so just "Tochigi" normally means the city; the "prefecture" is "Tochigi-ken", which would be used whenever disambiguation is required; and you will notice how short and easy to add the "ken" word is, in contradistinction to the ridiculous artificial "prefecture", which incidentally was an error of English until dictionaries retrofitted an extra definition late in the 20th century to fit the Japanese usage. I do see that on my printed address labels I have written just "Sano, Tochigi" (little-endian, comma separated). So probably the sequence "Nagano, Nagano" might appear in an address written for foreign consumption. I do not think (unlike e.g. Kansas City, Missouri) that there is any city with the name of a prefecture located in a different prefecture. Imaginatorium (talk) 19:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, Kansas City is the official name of the city. We have
New York, New York is the standard way to address an envelope for the mail. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:23, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@
some very special cases, -区 ("City"), but when these English translations are used in running prose they look like translationese. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Of course most cities in the US do not have "City" as part of their name. The name of most cities is a single word, but some city names are two words long. Kansas City is a two word city name, as is Los Angeles. "City" in "Kansas City" has no more official significance than "Angeles" in "Los Angeles". Note how the lead states what it is: Kansas City is the third-largest city in the State of Kansas. Kansas City is a city. Theoretically, it could be a village; a city might be reduced to a village if its population shrinks below a certain level – minimum size to be considered a "city" may vary by state, depending on their laws. wbm1058 (talk) 22:59, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure what your argument at this point is; you said above that Google translates ja:長野市 to "Nagano city" and this article translates the Japanese to "Nagano-shi" – not simply "Nagano"., even though nothing implies "Nagano-shi" is meant as a translation -- all Japan-related articles on English Wikipedia (except where the Japanese and English are identical) use the same format for romanized Japanese, and the italics are a hint that that is what it is. The rest of your initial comment implies you actually favour Nagano (city), which is supported by the Britannica article you cite, and you can't seriously be arguing that we should title our articles based on Google Translate. I pinged you as a courtesy because you were one of fifteen users who had briefly been involved in the previous discussion above, but I didn't expect you to show up and oppose for the sake of opposing. My Unanimous agreement in previous discussion (above) that the current title is abominable was not meant to imply that every user I pinged had used the word "abominable", but that every user who had commented on the issue agreed that the current format was bad. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:29, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few examples such as Ibaraki, Osaka and Ishikawa, Okinawa but I don't think they will cause any problems. Certes (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The usual rule for "disambiguation" on envelopes is that you write both the prefecture and the city name unless it's being addressed to a city with wards–i.e. a
WP:USPLACE uses the AP guide. But in practice everything will get where it's going even if you ignore this rule because the postal code is written at the very start of the address and that's already more specific. Dekimasuよ! 19:17, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
So most every Japanese city has 市 in its name but translating that to "City" in English is "translationese" (whatever that means, I really don't understand that term very well). Most of the time the 市 is redundant because "City" isn't needed for disambiguation, and using it implies that City is a part of the name, as in "Kansas City", which it is not. Yet, we have
Nagano City on the official website makes me want to lean towards using that; tell me why "Nagano City" is not functionally equivalent to "New York City". I'm not really making an "argument" here, just trying to get to a point where I'm confident in having a solution that will "stick". I'm a bit disappointed that this wasn't resolved in 2014. But then it took years to resolve New York, too. wbm1058 (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Why is "Nagano City" "not accurate"? Is "New York City" accurate, then? wbm1058 (talk) 02:41, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Every municipality has a "city", "town" or whatever tagged to the end in Japanese. They do this for non-Japanese addresses, too, so that you get "Ontario-province, Toronto-city", etc, as well. It's thus a mistake to translate the municipality tag as if it's part of the name of the municipality. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:45, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How convenient... so Japanese has New York-state and New York-city which avoids the years of debate that English Wikipedia went through. wbm1058 (talk) 03:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
...and Kansas City-city, Kansas-state? wbm1058 (talk) 03:08, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I looked it up and was surprised: it's "Missouri-state, Kansas City" (ミズーリ州カンザスシティ). The "City" is the English word "City" rendered in Japanese characters. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:17, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Nagano City but oppose Nagano (city) as unnecessary parenthetical disambiguation" that's fine, but please stop jumping back and forth just because you don't like ... something that I can't even figure out from reading everything you've written here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Sorry the tone isn't coming across as intended; that wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I haven't really made up my mind, and don't share the sense of urgency to move as the current title still seems reasonable to me. Curly Turkey's responses have been helpful. wbm1058 (talk) 03:53, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I should point out that while I feel there are various important primary topic issues here, I am also generally fine with the current title for this article. "A, B" names are relatively intuitive in most contexts in English and, as I noted above, they aren't deprecated by
WP:NATDIS. Dekimasuよ! 05:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@Wbm1058: "Washington state" can't be "translationese", because it is in English, which is the primary language of the state in question. "Nagano City" is "translationese" because it is overwhelmingly more common in machine-translated Japanese text than in text written by native English-speakers. Formal Japanese texts almost always use Nagano-shi, but formal English texts, unless they are very literal translations from Japanese, almost never use "Nagano City". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. "Machine translation errors" clears up the meaning of that term for me. But this Google search seems to show "Nagano City" to be more common than "Nagano city". I can't immediately tell how many of these are machine translated, but it appears to me that most are not. I understand your concern that with no context readers are mislead into thinking "Kansas City" when they should be thinking "New York City"; I don't know what can be done about that (or how serious a "problem" we should consider it). Perhaps you can counter my Google search results with some examples of how many texts simply say "Nagano" yet still manage to make it clear that they mean the city and not the prefecture. "Nagano City" yields fewer Olympics-related hits but as I previously discussed the Olympics context is somewhat ambiguous given that several of the venues were outside of the city. I see that Ski magazine uses "Nagano City", perhaps to make the distinction with the Nagano where the ski slopes are. wbm1058 (talk) 12:20, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that it was only machine translation; the problem extends to text that was professionally translated by native English speakers and then "checked" by Japanese with little knowledge of how things read in English but an awareness that the (effectively meaningless) distinction that Nagano is a city and not a town or a village has been lost if "長野市" (the most common, natural Japanese expression) gets translated as "Nagano" (the most natural English expression) as opposed to "Nagano City" or the even more awkward "Nagano city". No one actually suggested
Nagano City is more common. I think we can probably dismiss the Olympics-related sources since they tend to be written by people unfamiliar with Japanese municipalities, on the assumption that the "host city" was "Nagano [and its suburbs]" rather than he Olympics being hosted in a variety of separate municipalities within Nagano Prefecture. However, if we are going to use COMMONNAME-based arguments, then the Olympics sources (which are probably the only ones anyone outside Japan has ever read) are the only ones that really count for anything. (To be clear, I don't think COMMONNAME applies here to begin with. I just don't see the point in counting up sources if that isn't the argument one is making.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:11, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Sorry, I just noticed something you said above. The reason Washington State is ambiguous is because "state" is both a noun and an adjective, a problem that doesn't apply to "prefecture" ("Nagano Prefectural University" is apparently known by the unusual University of Nagano, which hardly differentiates it at all from Nagano University; Iwate Prefectural University vs. Iwate University makes a lot more sense) or "city" (sorry -- couldn't find one in Nagano with an article on English Wikipedia -- there is File:Nagano Municipal Nagano Library.jpg though). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The key difference between New York State and Washington State is that there is no
Tomi-city, Nagano. Presumably a human decided to write "Tomi-city". Which leads me to ask, why not Nagano-city? wbm1058 (talk) 22:51, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
wbm1058: The page was created by a native Japanese speaker. It's not surprising (to those of us who speak Japanese) that they would have written "Tomi-city"—in Japanese, the "-city"s, "-town"s, and "-village"s are appended to the municipality names, suffix-like. (And I'm sure many of us are familiar with Japanese speakers translating a neighbourhood called "Naninani-chō" as "Naninani-town".) This is simply how things are done in Japanese, and it comes as a surprise to many (most?) Japanese speakers that this is not how it's done worldwide. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Briefly on Fukushima: the
Fukushima, Fukushima). So that would indicate that it is actually Fukushima Prefecture
that is closer to being the primary topic in English at this point.
On the [City, Prefecture] convention: there should be a link somewhere above to the older form of that section, which indicated [City, Prefecture]. The guideline was subsequently changed without discussion and appeared to go unnoticed, perhaps partially because of the edit summary. Dekimasuよ! 01:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The edit summary was Generalize and simplify text. Remove and avoid possible conflicts. but it actually changed much more than that. The guideline was quite clear until the middle of last year. Dekimasuよ! 01:18, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I buy the province as the PT for Fukushima, then. As for the old guideline changes, I think – in looking at them closely – that the editor was only considering in-text usage and assuming that title usage would exactly following it, including addition of "Prefecture" after the prefecture's name. Looks like an honest mistake, and my tweak an hour or so ago mostly resolves it [5]; I've opened a discussion on the guideline talk about about fixing the rest, including the unreadable markup.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Yamagata, Yamagata is not the primary topic, so we need to either keep it at its current title or establish an alternative solution. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:25, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Nagano, Nagano is an abomination but Matsumoto, Nagano is fine. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Right. I'm suggesting that
WP:CONSISTENT.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:12, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@Curly Turkey: TBC, I'm in rough agreement with you that "Matsumoto, Nagano" is unnatural, but I was of the impression that we were talking specifically about cases of non-designated cities whose names are identical to their prefectures, leading to article titles that look like the names of songs, which are a different level of awkwardness. (This was, I thought, one of the reasons it was decided a few years ago that designated cities shouldn't use comma-separated disambiguation.) I'm not sure that I'd agree with you regarding "Matsumoto, Nagano" being an abomination that's essentially unattested (truth be told, I found myself writing "Asuka, Nara" to explain to a Japanese colleague in an email yesterday why I would be unable to get home and access my computer for at least a few hours, but that might have been a consequence of reading English Wikipedia, or even this discussion; and I didn't include the ", Nara" for disambiguation -- I'm certain my audience would have known what I meant -- so much as emphasis). I am not actually sure what the best solution for super-common municipality names would be, though: would you prefer Matsumoto (Nagano) or (to give a more useful example, where neither the name of the prefecture nor the fact that it is a city alone is enough to fully disambiguate) Ibaraki (city in Ibaraki)? (I'm still not entirely convinced the latter doesn't apply here, since both locals and the Kintetsu Railway Company apparently refer to Kawachinagano as simply "Nagano".) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:25, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nagano, Nagano were an "abomination" simply for aesthetic reasons, that would be such a frivolous, micromanaging, instruction-creepy rationale that I'd strong oppose it. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:40, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, surely we can agree to disagree regarding the hypothetical validity of a secondary motivation I might have had for this RM were it not for the other ones we can all agree on. ;-) And yeah, pointless disambiguation like the current title of our
Kawachi-Nagano, can easily be dealt with with a mass RM or two since no one could possibly find fault; figuring out what to do with cases like Nagano is something we need to punt over. Or not and all just agree on some less-shitty solution than the one we currently have. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Nagano, Nagano stays where it is, I'll hate it, but it won't be problematic. Having Nagano (city) but Mishima, Shizuoka
will be problematic and pointlessly overcomplicated.
An advantage to Matsumoto (Nagano) is that editors could write [[Matsumoto (Nagano)|]], [[Nagano Prefecture|Nagano]] instead of [[Matsumoto, Nagano|Matsumoto]], [[Nagano Prefecture|Nagano]]. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 16:37, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The pipe trick works for commas too! Certes (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Certes: It does! Never knew that. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 17:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Talk:Nagano (disambiguation). The hard part is this RM – how to disambiguate the city. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Of everything listed at the DAB page, I would side with the city being the PT. If we're still sure there is not one, then our current convention is
Nagano, Nagano. I'm not sure I like it, and I know several here do not, which is why I suggested RfCing it for the entire class of articles.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:44, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
SMcCandlish: I'm not seeing why you would consider the city PT. The city I live in borders the prefecture. Whenever I hear anyone (in any language) talking about "Nagano", it always refers to the prefecture. When talking about the city, they always qualify it, because they know well enough that "Nagano" alone will be interpreted as the prefecture.
As
Fukushima, Fukushima" are especially bad, but it applies to other municipalities requiring DABing as well: "Mishima, Shizuoka", "Asahi, Chiba", etc. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
But I do entirely understand that, and think that the entire notion of using this naming scheme (for Japanese places) should be RfCed and probably dismantled.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:54, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Grates on the ears... except when Frank Sinatra sings but those four-syllable names are more of a problem wbm1058 (talk) 05:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:USPLACES-based nonsense years ago—we still have piles of Japanese placenames that haven't been moved since then). The problem is the participants can never agree on a naming scheme (and Municipality (municipality) has always been one of the candidates). A further complication is that we're not always talking about (city)s—we're sometimes talking about municipality designations that don't have agreed-upon English equivalents—one I've already brought up is 町 chō, which a dictionary will tell you translates as "town", but most chōs are actually not municipalities, but more the equivalent of a neighbourhood (or some other sub-municipal area). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
wbm1058: If the problem were Izu, Izu, the grating would be just as bad. People simply don't say that here in Japan (of course, I'm speaking of people talking in English). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Discounting Amazon Alexa and friends, Wikipedia is a written encyclopedia. How do people write it? This is what I was getting at with my questions about addressing envelopes. I believe the answer was city, prefecture. "Nagano, Nagano" or "Nagano-shi, Nagano-ken"? Pretend the person writing the address doesn't know the postal code or forgot it. wbm1058 (talk) 16:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And since the "shi" and "ken" are omitted in conversation, then how do they disambiguate in conversation? Are there alternative words for "shi" and "ken" that aren't the "silent additions" used in writing? wbm1058 (talk) 16:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The "shi" and "ken" are not always dropped (for some, they're never dropped), and people disambiguate in conversation based on context—if I were to tell someone in Southern Ontario I were headed for London, they'd assume I was was headed for this one, not this one. Similarly, if I were in Yaizu and told people I were going to Shizuoka, they'd assume I was talking about the city; if I were in Toyohashi, they'd assume I was talking about the prefecture, so I'd know to add a "-shi" if I were talking about the city.
I have yet to reveive a piece of mail addressed to "Shizuoka, Shizuoka" (where I live), but I could give a list of ways it has been addressed ("Shizuoka City, Shizuoka Prefecture", "Shizuoka-shi, Shizuoka-ken", ...). There's no standard. We have agreement from the Japanese speakers that "Shizuoka, Shizuoka" is awful, but no agreement on how to fix it—thus the status quo. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 16:19, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I very much prefer writing "Shizuoka-ken, Shizuoka-shi...", mostly because if I invert the prefecture and municipality (and the ward and the cho), then what I am supposed to do with the banchi at the end? Do I write "1chome 2ban 3go", or "3go 2ban 1chome"? Most of the time I've seen it written in English they just use hyphens ("1-2-3"), and if you tried to invert them to put the smaller before the bigger it becomes an indecipherable mess. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's no standard, and I get it many ways, but when I get mail from abroad, it gets addressed like this:
Curly Turkey
Kurukuru Heights 123
Nanani-chō 2-14
Butani Ward
Shizuoka City
Shizuoka Prefecture
Japan
422-0000
Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. (Either Nagano City or Nagano (city)) Sorry, I haven't had the time or energy to follow all of the lengthy argument. I feel personally that both the "Official" notion, and the "WP RULES" notion are harmful. So I think we should look at a title and ask: "Is it good?" Does it help the maximum number of readers to understand what is going on? Can it be improved? Or simplified? I expect almost everyone in this discussion is a "Japan expert" to one degree or another, and therefore we have to step back, imagine not knowing what any of the cvcvcv patterns mean: if we see "Rikuzentakata, Iwate", do we have any clue what any of this means? If there are a number of Rikusentakatas we might figure out that the Iwate (whatever that is) tells us which; we might be baffled to learn that essentially Rikuzen is old-Japanese for Iwate. So it doesn't help, whatever rules etc it is based on. Similarly, Nagano might just about be well-known, because of the olympics. But the (winter) olympics tend to be held in mountain areas, and the name of the location could be anything; an area, a village, a nearby town. But no non-JE knows that it is both the name of a city and a ken, so the name repeated is merely mysterious. It seems to me that even if not a repetition, the format "Cvcvcvcv, Cvcvcvcvcv" where neither constituent is likely to be well-known should be strenuously avoided. | Then the "official" thing (or its henchman "Google translate"): well the little river not far from my home is called Akiyamagawa by all who know it. (Sure, they know it's 秋山川 but never say that.) The "official name, if it appeared on a signpost would probably be "Akiyama RIV.". This is an abomination (cf. George Orwell's rule on writing English). Imaginatorium (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Imaginatorium: I think your comment is very insightful and useful, and I can honestly say that I don't disagree with anything you have said here. I will, however, never be able to forgive you for the inexcusable and heinous sin of not including with your comment a satyric edit summary that would have read "Autumn-Mountain River"?. ;-) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Nagano, Nagano provide any sort of problem that Matsumoto, Nagano wouldn't? We also have to consider all the complications having multiple DABbing schemes would cause—either we should accept Municipality, Prefecture as a least-of-all-evils solution, or find a solution that fits all the cases, not just the repetitious-sounding ones. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@
No such user (talk) 15:32, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Nagano, Nagano. If we're not going to fix the whole thing, then we're just going to be left with an even more complicated mess. We don't need micromanaged instruction creep over petty aesthetics. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 16:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
@
No such user (talk) 16:18, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:CREEP
.
"our rules should broadly reflect how things are called in the real world"—and as has been pointed out more than enough times here and in similar discussions, people don't say "Matsumoto, Nagano" in the real world. If we're fine with that violation of
Nagano, Nagano. I'm opposed to a proliferation of hairsplitting rules that solve no concrete problem. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 18:00, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@
Hachinohe, Aomori is also PDAB and the current title would force the creator of the Hachinohe Village title to come up with an ad-hoc exception to the current rule. Hachinohe, Aomori (village) might technically adhere to all the rules in place at the moment, but it's even more abominable to look at than "Nagano, Nagano", and it's existence would cause "Hachinohe, Aomori" to violate PDAB. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:20, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Nothing to apologize for. I am happy to work towards a different system in light of the fact that many editors are objecting to the current one, but given the variety of opinions I've seen expressed here, I don't think we're there yet–there is some value in retaining consistency until that happens. As for Date, Fukushima and Date District, Fukushima, I'm not sure I agree that this is incomplete disambiguation. Would anyone refer to the -gun without the "District"? If not, there's no issue, just as Lincoln, Nebraska doesn't conflict with Lincoln County, Nebraska. Dekimasuよ! 07:37, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I see the following five valid options, none of which can be disqualified on the basis that they are flat-out wrong:

  • Nagano, Nagano
    (current "City, Prefecture" naming convention)
  • Nagano City
    (the "New York City" naming convention)
  • Nagano city (because the real proper name is just Nagano, or the "Washington state" naming convention)
  • Nagano-city (Nagano-shi)
  • Nagano, Nagano

I'm comfortable with any of these choices. The argument for

Nagano City, Nagano city and Nagano-city seems to be 'the "City, Prefecture" naming convention is good when the city and prefecture names are different, but "abominable" when they're the same, and of the other ways to indicate "city", Nagano (city)
is the only format that machines or professional translators will never translate to'.

I still don't view the argument for Nagano (city) over the other options as particularly strong, and there's no policy, guideline or naming convention helping to sort this out.

The only policy we need to follow is WP:CONSISTENCY: The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. and that policy says we need to keep the title right where it is.

I suggest that the next step is to submit a new multi-move request for all Japanese city articles where the city name is the same as the prefecture name. The request may be filed on this talk page or the talk page of any of the other similarly named cities, or it may be filed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. The only way to not break WP:CONSISTENCY is to move them all at once. I'd put all of these options up for a vote, and let the voters decide. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Challenging the guidelines

There are suggestions above that

MOS:JPPLACE
?) but nevertheless is not the best title. Do editors who favour moving the page think that:

  1. WP:IAR
    without disturbing other pages?
  2. cities which share a name X with their prefecture are exceptional as a group; articles named X, X should be moved, after updating the guideline to reflect this case?
  3. city articles named City, Prefecture should generally be moved, after updating the guideline?
  4. other reasons apply?

After reading the arguments above, I am leaning towards proposing option 3 for discussion in a more general forum. — Certes (talk) 16:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okinawa, Okinawa. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 17:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
If we're going to throw out the Municipality, Prefecture guideline (which I'm all for), then we should do it for all municipalities, and not just for those that share names with prefectures. Why complicate the guidelines, especially when all the problems with this naming scheme apply to all municipalities in Japan anyways? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 17:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds reasonable but suggests that I should have split 3. into
3a. 3, but only where the city name coincides with the name of a prefecture (e.g. Ibaraki, Osaka);
3b. 3, whatever the city name (e.g. Daitō, Osaka).
I would also suggest that where there are multiple cities of the same name in different prefectures, e.g. Date, Fukushima and Date, Hokkaido, the current page names can be retained. Certes (talk) 18:28, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If we're trying to solve the whole poorly-attested Municipality, Prefecture format by introducing something like Nagano (city), then it would make more sense to have Date (Fukushima) and Date (Hokkaido)—otherwise, we'll've solved only part of the problem. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 19:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the "X, Y" format (where we disambiguate a small place X by saying it's part of a larger place Y) is well established, and not just in the U.S.
WP:PLACEDAB apply. Certes (talk) 19:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Nagano, Nagano solve? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I understand that, for example, the Japanese would refer to "Abashiri" rather than "Abashiri, Hokkaidō". (The latter sounds to me like a U.S. affectation.) But how do the Japanese distinguish between the two cities called Date? Certes (talk) 21:39, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that's more a function of the tendency to put the prefecture name first than an actual aversion to disambiguation by prefecture. We're certainly used to saying "Foo-ken, Bar-shi" in English, by virtue of our familiarity with Japanese, just not "Bar-shi, Foo-ken". Dekimasuよ! 22:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since we prefer natural disambiguation, Date, Fukushima would remain preferable to Date (Fukushima). Dekimasuよ! 22:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dekimasu: Assuming it were natural, which it isn't. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Rikuzentakata that are frequently shortened (in Japanese) when disambiguation is not absolutely necessary (and this is reflected sometimes in English, like with Takata Matsubara). Another problem (you've just alerted me to it with that link!) is that Date, Fukushima doesn't fully disambiguate, meaning the title really should be Date (city in Fukushima). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:25, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Thank you. I didn't know about the district, which I assume disambiguates neatly in Japanese as Fukushima-ken Date-gun. Certes (talk) 23:23, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Certes: Yes. They simply don't have these issues in Japanese. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:02, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@
Morioka, Iwate is problematic. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:46, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Disambiguators should disambiguate fully, though a small number of articles like Kiss (band) and redirects like Thriller (album) have slipped through the net. 2013 discussion at VPP. Certes (talk) 23:23, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm actually of two minds on that, and wish I could find the precise place in the PAG that says it. I don't mind the existence of an article called "Kiss (band)", and I even once RMed The Avengers (2012 film) since the article title The Avengers (film) does, arguably, have a primary topic. But if we are going to apply the guideline we have to do it consistently, and only ever make exceptions for very famous cases, like Kiss or The Avengers. I don't think any Japanese municipalities reach that level. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
At minimum, I think that #2 has to be implemented, either via a guideline change (again, see the attempt Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 27#Nara, Nara that just died out) or a group RM of all cities listed at the top of this section, presumably to X (city).
Personally, I would favor #3 as well, but it would need some further fine-combing. For example, I think that the "comma-convention" should be retained whenever the city name is ambiguous, except in the case #2.
FWIW, the only potentially problematic cases from the X,X list above are:
Except for Ibaraki, where
No such user (talk) 13:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Nagano, Nagano. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 15:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
No such user (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
At this stage I'm trying to clarify the scope of the question rather than push any particular answer. If 2., 3a. or 3b. is chosen then
Shizuoka, Shizuoka would move. Off the top of my head and without having done proper research, Shizuoka (city) feels like the best new title, but I'll not be upset if a different wording is preferred. Certes (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I'd like to make a few practical comments about #3, taking as an example the places in Populated coastal places in Japan. 1) There is a mix of single place name and place name-comma-prefecture. According to opinions expressed here and in the recent Rfc, going beyond the statement of the closer, the prefecture should be removed from unique place names. Since my preference is for consistency over either of the alternatives, I'm fine with that. It would have the advantage of consistency with the rest of Wikipedia. It would require research to determine whether each of the 300+ names in this category are unique, but if the people who want it are prepared to do that, good for them. 2) For names that aren't unique, there will probably have to be primary topic discussions. As we know, these tend to be long and contentious, so I hope that the people who want it are ready for that too. 3) In-title disambiguation will presumably still be handled by adding the prefecture name, which raises the question of formats. Excuse me if I'm assuming too much here, but it seems to me that at the root of this whole discussion is the way that the comma format grates on editors who prefer some variety of British English. Hence the suggestion to put the prefecture in parentheses. The practical problem with that is that by far the largest shareof readers and presumably editors of the English Wikipedia are Americans, and it doesn't grate on them. For example, a quick check of six countries in Populated coastal places by country (Germany, Finland, Portugal, France, Mexico, Russia) showed that the comma format outnumbered the parentheses format by 5 to 1. Whatever it would mean for the commas to be "attested", it's supported by the standards cited above by Certes, many editors seem to be prefer it, and I think they will probably continue to use it regardless of the JPMOS. So trying to eliminate it is probably a futile exercise, unless you are willing to commit to an ongoing campaign. – Margin1522 (talk) 23:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Margin1522: Your comment is fairly reasonable overall, but I think you are probably wrong on For names that aren't unique, there will probably have to be primary topic discussions, since (a) this would be the case whether this proposal passed or not, since Fu, Bar is a violation when "Fu, Bar" is the primary topic of "Fu" to begin with, and (b) titles with a clear primary topic are probably a tiny minority; most of these municipalities are very small, and no one who doesn't live in or near them (including Japanese) have ever heard of them, and arguing that a city with a population of 200,000 is more like a primary topic than a city with a population of 190,000 (or that a village with a population of 4,000 is more like a primary topic than a village with a population of 1,000) is unlikely to lead to any useful consensus. I also think the "largest share" argument probably doesn't work since (a) US readers are still a minority (less than 50%) of readers of English Wikipedia, (b) they are probably a smaller minority of readers of articles on Japanese municipalities, and (c) they are not bothered by "Ibaraki (city in Osaka)" as much as non-US readers are bothered by "Ibaraki, Osaka", as evidenced by the fact that US readers tolerate English Wikipedia's use of parenthetical disambiguation for articles on just about every non-geographical topic.
Very off-topic, tongue-in-cheek rant that I don't think anyone will begrudge me making in good-faith, as long as I self-collapse
I've actually heard Americans, in real life rather than on en.wiki, argue that something like
WP:TIES applies to Japan because American English is the "official" variety of English used in Japan, except for the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare, and the Council of Local Authorities for International Relations (read: the official state body that came up with the idea of inviting foreigners in to teach English in rural public schools), and any other government or administrative body where the in-house translator happens to be from an English-speaking country other than the US, and all the public school where the "official" English is a unique Japanese specimen that bears roughly equal dissimilarity to all of British, American, Australian, Irish, Canadian or Indian English (using American spelling more often than not, but promoting weird grammatical and style rules that are less American than traditional kanbun-kundoku is Chinese, such as that the distinction between "cap" and "cup" is not /kap/[6][7] and /kəp/-/kʌp/[8][9] but /kap/[citation needed] and /kjap/[citation needed]), and every single Japanese whisky
distillery (and don't think it doesn't annoy the hell out of me as an Irishman in Japan that the most prominent place where Japanese favour British spelling is the one word that Irish and Americans generally spell the same and differently from Britishers).
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Margin1522: In twenty years, I have yet to meet an American in Japan who speaks in the "Yaizu, Shizuoka" format—in other words, I've seen no evidence that this is an Americans-vs-the-World thing. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Curly Turkey: So do they speak in parentheses? How would you tell? Look, I can understand being annoyed. There are lots of things on Wikipedia that annoy me, e.g. the hatnotes on policy pages to unrelated pages that happen to begin with the same letter of the alphabet. But I have quit trying to change these things. I could also note that pointing out that editors have no problem with parentheses in disambiguation titles except for place names is not a real strong argument when we are talking about place names (>Hijiri). And that it's not me who keeps bringing up the U.S. and Americanisms, it's the non-American contingent. And that I can't believe that the comma format is that annoying, since it's used in the lists of populated coastal places in England, Scotland, Wales, and Canada. In sum, (prefecture) is an idea, but I think it's time to let it go. – Margin1522 (talk) 05:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You completely misunderstood my point: I can't for the life of me figure out why we use parenthetical disambiguation for everything but geographic topics, and I can't imagine the majority of US readers (a) care and (b) would be seriously bothered by us applying the same standard to these geographic articles as everything else. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:27, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Shizuoka, Shizuoka back to its current title, after all (a discussion you participated in)—while acknowledging it's unnatural and poorly attested. Are you for complicating the rules by having Nagano (city) but Matsumoto, Nagano? If not, what are you arguing about? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 16:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@Curly Turkey: You actually never got back to me following my "14:34, 29 July 2018" comment regarding the ordering of the processes. You clearly support moving these pages, but I think you are arguing for doing it in the wrong order. (I actually, instinctively, agree that a change to MOS should precede individual RMs, but experience has taught me that that is not the way it works on English Wikipedia.) No one is saying we should move this article but not all the other ones; people are saying we should move this article and all the others, once the precedent has been established. (And I didn't pick this article: Dekimasu told me that a discussion was taking place here already after I happed across a similar "the base title currently redirects to this page, so we should move this page to the base title" RM.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:57, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Curly Turkey: Oh, sorry. So nobody is actually proposing to to abolish the comma format for disambiguation. Imaginatorium dislikes it in general but is silent on disambiguation, Hijiri was just wondering, and you were never for it. My mistake. I myself have no problem with Nagano, Nagano or any of the other double names. But many editors clearly do, so I think an exception is going to have to be made, hopefully to put this issue to rest once and for all. My suggestion would be Nagano City. It's a natural counterpart to Nagano Prefecture, and I don't think we have to reject it because normally we don't add "City" to names. We're making an exception. – Margin1522 (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CREEP. The approach you propose would result in exactly that (in this case). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:32, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
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I was referring to the "abominable" comments. I understand that you're for consistency one way or the other, but you definitely seem to favour one way over the other. (I'm not criticizing you, since I agree.) I'm not actually in favour of moving a subset for purely aesthetic reasons: I support moving all of them -- eventually. The selection of this one is basically arbitrary, at least on my part: it was already being discussed before I got here (yes, I do think "Munipalitywithsamenameasprefecture, Prefecturewithsamenameasmunicipality" is particularly bad for aesthetic reasons, but that has nothing to do with this being the page I chose to RM first). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I supported moving unique names because that would be be consistent with the rest of Wikipedia. Non-unique names disambiguated with the prefecture can stay as they are. As for double names, for some reason they are a constant source of controversy. If people feel that strongly about it, I have a weak preference for simply adding "City" to all of them, but if that's not acceptable either, whatever they want. – Margin1522 (talk) 08:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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partially disambiguated (see the above bizarre case of Date, Fukushima, which should link to the disambig page, and Date District, Fukushima), and simply adding "City" to all of them would force us to resort to a different disambiguation method (either parentheses or comma) for cases like Ibaraki, whereas with "(city)" we can just make "(city in Osaka)" or "(city in Ibaraki)". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply
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OK, I'll leave the details to you. Whatever. – Margin1522 (talk) 09:00, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fukushima (city) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:16, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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