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please check me to make sure I am not introducing errors, but I am being pretty careful. Unless otherwise noted, most of the changes I am making are for flow and readability, which is of course a matter of opinion, so feel free to change particular edits back.
Y resolved: Algiers only a city prior to Ottoman period
Right now I am having a little trouble with the following: The loss of the middle Maghreb's role as a mediator of commerce between Europe and Africa - especially in gold - led to economic stagnation, decline in trading resou lolrces, and deterioration of craftsmanship in its two historical capitals, Bejaia and Tlemcen. I am putting a paragraph break there because it immediately follows some stuff about the Spanish, and you are talking about Algiers, or what became Algiers, right? Elinruby (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC),[reply]
Yeah, I’m talking about the central Maghreb precisely because Algiers was only a city prior to the ottoman period. This fragmentation of the central Maghreb into multiple emirates and chiefdoms made it vulnerable to Spanish attacks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
K thanks.
(Stale update)Haven't been very available the last few days but I'd like to finish up the copy-edit today or tomorrow. It might help with the GA nomination, but in any case people usually feel that I do improve readability, which is important for material largely unknown to English speakers.
And again, the difference between what I could do with French sources and how much better you could make it with Arabic is really eye-opening, even if I had some idea of the extent of the colonialism to begin with. There was a whole raft of these machine translations btw...for a long time it seemed like those translations from French were all we were getting about North Africa, and it really bothered me.
I will put any further questions here. Elinruby (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y typo confirmed and fixed
Lucien Golvin is piped to Lucien Goldvin. Is there a reason for that or is it a typo? Usually when I see these things I take them to mean that somebody disagrees with the spelling or transliteration, but this is contemporary French where that would be unusual. Leaving it for now pending a reply. Elinruby 21:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC) (talk)[reply]
{Nourerrahmane answer copied from multi-part answer below): ::::Yes It's typo
Y we agree the sentence is useless
and its residents slept at nine o'clock at night and woke up in the morning. How do we know the part about nine o'clock? Was it called that? The part about waking up in the morning seems self-evident, unless we are saying early in the morning, before it got too hot. I removed this from the Society section pending a response. Elinruby (talk) 21:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes It's typo
- We're talking about door knockers, no need to talk about fez because the source says that andalusian techniques were transmitted through the city of fez to tlemcen, if i'm right.
I'm
- This sentence is useless in my opinion. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2024
Agree, leaving it out then Elinruby (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lots and lots about door knockers not done
Under bronzes in the Arts section, I do not understand this sentence: Fez constituted relays, while Algiers and Constantine had adopted more flexible forms, in loops, well known in Turkey. Are we still talking about door knockers here? If so relay is probably the wrong word. An image would be great here if one was available.
- We're talking about door knockers, no need to talk about fez because the source says that andalusian techniques were transmitted through the city of fez to tlemcen, if i'm right.
(this answer copied below it's question elsewhere)*::::- This sentence is useless in my opinion. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2024 (UTC):::::Algerian door knockers [2] (talk) 22:4
Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:4
@@⁵
(gone) Cool! What's that thing about a relay? Elinruby (talk) 23:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, a decorated one Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Decorated door knocker? Ok Elinruby (talk) 01:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They seem to have Arabic inscriptions, usually there are two of them, small ones are for women bigger ones for men, as a way to alert the residents. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done just got distracted.But sure, I will make sure to re-check that section. You're talking about door-knockers? I was thinking of adding this image -- it would be for women then? Elinruby (talk) 02:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
more door knockers not done
I donno really, since previous editors suggested removing pictures from the article Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
they might have been talking about the Gallery sections; not sure. It's just a suggestion. I do have questions about the tile stuff you added, but I will have to come back to that. Tired right now and just looking at style consistency, which they care a lot about in these reviews. By the way a lot of what I am changing wasn't exactly wrong in the sense of not ccbeing understandable. One item of feedback tho is that you look up "sentence fragment". Common mistake. Look up "principle of least astonishment" -- that's what I am working on, trying to make it easier to absorb a lot of very dense information with many specialized terms. I am not saying the article shouldn't have information or provide the right names of things. But a lot of small changes like spelling and capitalizing those names consistently can make the article easier to read.
((stale update)Made an additional in architecture subsection, would you mind correcting mistakes if there are any ? Thanks Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y agree on raïs not reis or Reis or Rais (where is means "the corsairs"
Should Rais really be raïs, btw? Elinruby (talk) 12:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this contribution, you really outdid yourself with this article, and yes, raïs is the correct word. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:28, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you for the obviously huge amount of work that you have put into this. A couple of things I didn't get to because seriously, going to sleep now:
Y Aruj=Oruç, agree to use Oruç
@Mathglot: what am I doing wrong here? Label won't display? Elinruby (talk) 08:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem (now fixed) was that where you coded Aruj=Oruç... you are still inside the unclosed {{
cot}} parameter 'Aruj', because equal sign is a metacharacter inside a template. To defeat this, rather than use the positional parameter #1 unnamed as the implied param #1, name it explicitly, i.e.: |1=Aruj=Oruç...; this will be interpreted as positional parameter one having the value Aruj=Oruç... including the equal sign as part of the value. Mathglot (talk) 09:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
aha got it thank you Elinruby (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aruj is first mentioned without introduction (I think) - Next section is about the military unit. Or maybe I just missed it. If so this should be fixed.
- Aruj was described as a corsair, then in the second section there are more informations related to his rule, since the focus is on geopolitics of Algiers.
ok but it says his name is Barbarossa so is he the son of one of the brothers that founded the Regency? But it doesn't say that until after he is mentioned as just Aruj. I think. That's the real problem if so
the first time you talk about someone you are supposed to say who they are. Like Joe Biden, President of the United States. Then after that just Biden. If this isn't making sense don't worry about it, because.I could be wrong. I will have a little more time for this tomorrow. The other thing, if you are looking for stuff to do, is that any reference that isn't English should have a trans-title field. It looked like this had been done for Arabic and I did some French ones, but somebody should check and make sure we got them all Elinruby (talk) 14:13, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh btw, Aruj is Oruç Barbarossa, don’t remember who changed Oruç to Aruj Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok now that explains a lot. And it's a plausible transliteration variation maybe. (I don't know how "ç" would be pronounced in Turkish or whatever the Ottomans spoke). If you're sure of that I'd suggest standardizing that also. More later. Elinruby (talk) 19:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Copied from multi-part question below) Btw French Wikipedia uses the spelling Arudj for Oruç, I just noticed Elinruby (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
capitalization resolved by fiat, copying to standardization thread
*Y Janissaries or janissaries?(this never got answered so I unilaterally went with lower case on the theory that it's a description and find/replace is a thing. Collapsing and copying to
Find/Replace is a thing. Collapsing this thread and copying to standardization section.) Elinruby (talk) 18:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(from a list of mine that I later split. Have now done at least a superficial copy edit of all history subsections, twice. Scope creep currently working his way through on reference verification pass Elinruby (talk) 19:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC))I just realized that I didn't get all the way through the history sectionElinruby (talk) 13:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y questions about morisco rescue mission, resolved I think, somebody check
under Morisco rescue missions: the part about what they did when they didn't have enough ships is unclear. Made camp further down the coast then went back for more? Pending the arrival of more ships? Btw French Wikipedia uses the spelling Arudj for Oruç, I just noticed Elinruby (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they left gaurds in the spanish coasts to free the ships and pending the arrival of more rescue ships for the remaining moriscos. Nourerrahmane (talk) 20:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
k thanks I will try to clarify that.
I just asked a random English speakers of he knew what a morisco was, and he didn't. So I will try to do that short intro on first mention thing that I was talking about also. Elinruby (talk) 22:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I explained the moriscos now. Somebody should check. Elinruby (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hey Scope creep I know you're usually not around on weekends, but if you have time for a quick scan, we're trying to get this through GA; any pointers on what we might be missing? Elinruby (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(addressed below)Raïs Hajj Muhammad in one sentence and Raïs Haj Muhammad just before that. I realize this is transliteration but we should pick one. This is in the "Dey Muhammad ben Othman Pasha (1766–1792)" section Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jenina palace stuff, needs to move to "Problem for a future time" section
Jenina Palace is a red link, which seems a shame. I am taking it that Dar Aziza is not close enough to the same thing, posting here in case I am wrong. Adding Jenina Palace to a list of missing articles meanwhile. Elinruby (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No not the same thing at all, Dar aziza was only a moorish house built for the daughter of the dey, the Jenina palace was a big structure and even the pictures in the article do not show the courtyard in the back. it was a the seat of power of the regency built by Salah Reis. The building was demolished by the French in the 1850s if i'm right. Sayyida mosque, repaired by the dey Mohammed ben Othman Pasha was also demolished, it was the mosque of the deys where they attended friday prayers. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I didn't link them, and did list it as a missing article.
Y editor having outages, all over now
personal note: power is going on and off so if I disappear that will be why. Otoh, since it's getting restored the problem is probably tree branches -- it's windy -- not slides, so I probably won't disappear for long. Elinruby (talk) 00:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This prevented the character of banditry, piracy, or assault on the freedom of global trade from the part of the Algerian navy. Does this mean "prevented these accusations from being made"? Elinruby (talk) 08:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, i think that the name of the Historian (Saidouni) should be added prior to this sensence. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would help, because it is also an opinion, but I am still not clear yet on whether the opinion is that it was not piracy because they charged royalties, or that they charged the royalties to prevent what they were doing from meeting a legal definition of piracy, or ? Elinruby (talk) 09:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, Saidouni is saying that this is foreign policy based on mutual agreement between states which included paying tribute in exhange for free passage and preferences in trade with Algiers. and what european chroniclers call piracy was in fact Algiers exercising its sovregnity through its corsairs. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems clear we won't be using these so let's reduce page load time: Elinruby (talk) 10:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Une coupe lustrée à décor de Pardalot de valence.jpg
Arab school of embroidery, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697839.tif
Coffre bijoux kabyles 1.jpg
Algerian Tanchifa 18th C Arab school of embroidery, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697839.jpg
Algeria Arab Women Weavers (NBY 444198).jpg
Emile Claus - The mosque of Sidi Boumedienne.jpg Sidi Boumedienne mosque. Emile Claus.
Lead
Morning @Elinruby: Hows things. It is in pretty decent nick. I would add alt tags too all the images. The lead is the big thing that needs done first. I see somebody posted a tag. It is far too long and had far too much extraneous detail to pass GA at the moment. If it was taken to FA they wouldn't look at it. It needs shortened to three paras and about half the size. It could probably do with a rewrite now the article is completed. scope_creepTalk 08:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
@Scope creep: Thanks. Hadn't thought of alt tags. And rewrite the lead, got it. Still doing copy-edit and formatting. Do they want lang templates, do you know? Elinruby (talk) 15:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weather, all done
Thanks for the look; have fun wherever you are hiking. The mountains behind me are supposed to get 80cms of snow tomorrow so my plan involves blankets, the cat, and copyedits on my phone. Hope to knock this out this weekend. Elinruby (talk) 08:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
80cm, that is a lot. I never seen that level of snow in Scotland except once, until I went snowboarding in France. I remember trying to get to the garage about 20 feet away I was quite young and could make even get to the garage door, back in quick. It was a pure laugh. scope_creepTalk 08:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
extended followup to this land use terminology question in progress further down the page
Comment Got more suggestions. That third para in "Agriculture". It has two definitions, "khammas" and "melk" which are not defined. This I don't understand "distribution of usufruct". That third para could be doing with a brushup. @Mathglot: might check that. scope_creepTalk 08:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this got done
In "Education". I would remove "other such skills". It is the same as etc, which is never on Wikipedia. List them if important, or perhaps remove it. scope_creepTalk 09:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this has been taken care of Elinruby (talk) 15:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Corsair vs privateer vs pirate
At the top in "Barbarossa brothers arrive" your using privateer to mean pirates and "coarsairing" further down. It is quite an uncommon word coarsaring. scope_creepTalk 09:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to this specific question, @Scope creep:, as you have probably gathered by now, "pirates" and "privateers" are being used more or less interchangeably. The most technically correct of the two as I understand things is "privateer" like Francis Drake, but the exactly right term is "corsair". On the other hand English-language sources almost universally use "pirate", but that is part of the colonialism/other-izing of some of the early historiography. This is going to come up again in discussion, or should. Elinruby (talk) 06:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Referencing to check
I would put in OCLC tags in all references that have ISBN's and the rest if you can find an entry in worldcat. scope_creepTalk 09:20, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: No, I've left a message above. Two sections need fixed. scope_creepTalk 09:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oh it's the same thing? My bad. Elinruby (talk) 09:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the "Education" section below "Imbalance between military doctrine and culture" You images sitting either side with the text in the middle, which is illegal. They will need reordered. Same in the "Society" section. You may get away with it, as they are no directly facing each other but not directly. Its also in the "Triennial mandate: Pashalik period". That won't be allowed. Also in this section "Ottoman suzerainty weakens". I would think moving to a gallery in the appropriate part of the section or moving to multiple image template, also in the section, might be a better move. An example of its muliple image use is found on the Hannah Arendt article. I think there is many to not a full change, but its really dependent on yourselves. You could move one or two perhaps. I don't know. scope_creepTalk 09:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is still a couple of section. I'm going to up end doing the images. Sections "Administrations" and in the "Dutch Republic" need sorting. It hits the "Treaty of Algiers on the right". scope_creepTalk 08:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nod, just updating thanks Elinruby (talk) 09:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
confirmed: driveby image edit by Dutch editor fixed this issue
On this image "Willem van de Velde the Younger (1633-1707) - The Attack on Shipping in Bugia, 18 May 1671 (II) - RCIN 405214 - Royal Collection.jpg". I would check to see if there is update image. It might have been restored in the meantime, in the recent past. It very dark and on some low contrast devices at the lower end of the market if will be very hard to see. scope_creepTalk 09:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[3] may have fixed this? Not sure if this was before or after your review. I was in the history looking for something else: there used to be another paragraph about the borders. I was thinking about making those paragraphs a note Elinruby (talk) 06:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: He lightened it. That is really cool. That is closed. scope_creepTalk 06:45, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Questions
I am striking some items to make it clearer what remains unanswered. I think almost everything in this section is taken care of Elinruby (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
=so cluebot and I disagree=
there is also an unclosed strike tag. I will track this down shortly but if anybody reverts anything that will be too many moving parts for MY mind, which is still in overload from discovering that we spelled Mohammed ben Osman six different ways in three paragraphs in War with Spain and also referred to to him by a completely different name (El Kébir) whose spellings I did not count. Be right back 18:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Need short description of Al-Zahar from source in text
@Nourerrahmane: if source is in Arabic this is for you
who is Al-Zahar? Historical historiographer I am guessing? He comes up several times towards the end. Google is telling me about a modern Palestinian politician. Is there another spelling? Arabic Wikipedia article we can link to? Elinruby (talk) 10:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He's a nobleman of sharifian origin from Algeria, lived through and wrote about the later period of the Regency of Algiers, source actually gives a short description of him. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so not really a historiographer, more like a contemporary diarist or commentator? I will un-redlink it if you don't think there's a Wikipedia article.Elinruby (talk) 10:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[4] that's the source, it's called "Memoirs of Hajj Ahmed Al-Sharif Al-Zahar, head of the nobles of Algeria" collected by Algerian Historian Ahmed Tewfik and honestly it's an important local historical source about later period of Algiers. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not questioning the use of him, just how to explain him him
it's good that you mentioned him in the aristocracy section Elinruby (talk) 12:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
al-Zahar is now mentioned in the "Tribal aristocracy" section as a writer and an example of an eastern maraboutic aristocrat of the Ottoman period.
Nourrahmane Getting 404 page not found at the link above. I think this is resolved, but I am looking for a link to the book or a page about either the author or the book. Elinruby (talk) 05:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well done @Nourerrahmane: for tying that up. If this is the first time he is mentioned, and I think it is, then we have at least met that. Since the article is heavily weighted with definitions and really needs to be I agree with the GA reviewer that this article definitely should be an exception on overlinking. I do feel that perhaps it is excessive to wikilink "watermelon", however, but what do I know. Maybe that town has three watermelon festivals a year. But wikilinks are easier to take off than to find. Bottom line, we should redlink this author again where he appears later on in....somewhere further down the page. Even though I usually question notability if I can't find a wikilink in any language, I wouldn't here because surely there is one in Arabic? Or maybe a a different transliteration? He's an early source If not, a reference, surely. Elinruby (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y agreement on taking borders out of the lede
Also, for the lede, how do you feel about my suggestion that we put the discussion of the territorial scope in a separate section just after the lede? It's a definition really and should be pretty high up, but that will help with the lede length. Also readability because then people who are not interested or who aren't familiar enough with the landmarks.
rewrite approved, Legacy section may remain
I came in here to tell you that I did a non-trivial copy-edit to the Legacy section that you should check, but I don't believe I changed your meaning. Feel free to edit my edit, but the part about "points to the fact that" is not all that neutral and I changed it to "writes". Also added "he says" to what looks like an extended indirect quote.
*::::In other news, it looks like you got that note working? Elinruby (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrality of the Legacy section: jihad
(Page management problem done)(Had to split both my three-part question and your three-part answer, Nourerrahmane, I apologize for that. Please let me know if you object to any part of the wayI did the split, because normally we don't ever do this and you are totally entitled to object if I did something wrong here) Elinruby (talk) 05:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)(UTC)[reply]
quote because what's shown was the first quote of William Spencer about Algerian foreign relations. There is a second one more adequate to the legacy section that i couldn't deal with. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
@
WP:DUE covers this if I am not explaining it well. There are also no doubt sources that discuss colonialism and imperialism on a global or continental scale that could be added to further reading, for one thing. Scope creep can probably tell us what policy currently is about to that and about be related topics that of this period in See also, that are not exactly of this place and time, such as Scramble for Africa or Hanseatic League or I dunno, Elizabethan privateers like Francis Drake, who is not mentioned in the article right now, I don't think, but definitely was a privateer. Hope that is helpful, sorry if you already knew this.Elinruby (talk) 08:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
holy war jihad
(this part resolved elsewhere):ok. I will ask you about that tomorrow, need to stop soon. Meanwhile another awkward question you don't have to answer right now: under "Algerian stratocratic government", how is consensus legitimized by jihad?
(resolved elsewhere}:::::::Done for the quote. regarding your question: the consensus was legitmized by the agreement of the military electors that the Dey will defend the regency and wage war against its enemies. In this military republic, Jihad (or piracy, privateering) was a matter of complicated foreign policy, economical prosperity, religious prestige, public hapiness and internal stability. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I think. Not going to try to restate it right now though, tired and approaching incoherence. See you tomorrow. Elinruby (talk) 12:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nod, we really are polishing for format now I think. I am still thinking about "jihad" but I don't have a good suggestion right now. The problem is that Bush-era US propaganda really did a number on that word and it has very negative connotations. That is no doubt wrong but also a fact.
(done)Internet is pretty right now, probably the snow. Will try to click.around some other articles tomorrow and see how they have it. Elinruby (talk) 08:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't bother me, because the context of Jihad or holy war here is general and includes both Ottomans and Habsbourgs in 16th century, also Algiers was also compared to the state of the Knights of Rhodes and Malta. Maritime Jihad was also a core aspect that gave legitimacy to the military oligarchy of Algiers in the eyes of the population. Basically, the Regency was all about Jihad, it was created for this purpose by the Barbarossas. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah but does that come across? Not sure. I had to ask. But possibly this is because of reading too closely and missing a big picture. I don't have a better idea on how to explain this right now and I do understand that this is a critical point. I am not advocating taking it out, and I'll talk to you about any rewordings about this, k? Just letting you know it's on my list of things to think about Elinruby (talk) 09:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nod I will not be all that available today but I've been prioritizing this trying to get improvements in ahead of the GA review. I will try to at least get to some of the alt tags on the images. I am usually on a phone so I don't see the layout problem he is talking about. Did you address that?
Nah i didn't deal with images sorry Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't care because I don't see it, so no need to apologize to me. But he deals with ratings and says it will be an issue, is why I ask.
Also, for the lede, how do you feel about my suggestion that we put the discussion of the territorial scope in a separate section just after the lede? It's a definition really and should be pretty high up, but that will help with the lede length. Also readability because then people who are not interested or who aren't familiar enough with the landmarks can then skip over the section. Elinruby (talk) 18:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in Administration section ? just where it sayS that the regency reached its maximum extent in the late 16th century.* Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Territorial extent in the lede: Situated between the Regency of Tunis in the east, the Sharifian Sultanate of Morocco and Spanish Oran (until 1791) in the west, the regency originally stetched from the Oued Mellègue [fr] river in the east to Moulouya river in the west and from Collo to Ouargla to the south.
There was another paragraph about how that changed that got deleted somehow. I can get it back out of the history if need be.
Or, frankly, the entire discussion is quite meaningless to me, and I think you can probably count on one hand the number of en-wiki readers who know where those places are so deleting it altogether is also an option.
But if you think it's important I recommend a separate section. Elinruby (talk) 19:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I removed, it's already mentionned that it's located in the barbary coast of north africa and the map shows were it is located exactly Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(resolved elsewhere}:::::::Done for the quote. regarding your question: the consensus was legitmized by the agreement of the military electors that the Dey will defend the regency and wage war against its enemies. In this military republic, Jihad (or piracy, privateering) was a matter of complicated foreign policy, economical prosperity, religious prestige, public hapiness and internal stability. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I think. Not going to try to restate it right now though, tired and approaching incoherence. See you tomorrow. Elinruby (talk) 12:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby Can you please check again the Foreign policy subsection and tell me if the "Jihad legitimacy" that's been talked about in Algerian stratocratic governement section is clear enough ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nod, we really are polishing for format now I think. I am still thinking about "jihad" but I don't have a good suggestion right now. The problem is that Bush-era US propaganda really did a number on that word and it has very negative connotations. That is no doubt wrong but also a fact.
Internet is pretty right now, probably the snow. Will try to click.
around some other articles tomorrow and see how they have it. Elinruby (talk) 08:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't bother me, because the context of Jihad or holy war here is general and includes both Ottomans and Habsbourgs in 16th century, also Algiers was also compared to the state of the Knights of Rhodes and Malta. Maritime Jihad was also a core aspect that gave legitimacy to the military oligarchy of Algiers in the eyes of the population. Basically, the Regency was all about Jihad, it was created for this purpose by the Barbarossas. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah but does that come across? Not sure. I had to ask. But possibly this is because of reading too closely and missing a big picture. I don't have a better idea on how to explain this right now and I do understand that this is a critical point. I am not advocating taking it out, and I'll talk to you about any rewordings about this, k? Just letting you know it's on my list of things to think about Elinruby (talk) 09:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
image planning
Alright. Hopefully we'll have
another review from @Scope creep soon. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Nod I will not be all that available today but I've been prioritizing this trying to get improvements in ahead of the GA review. I will try to at least get to some of the alt tags on the images. I am usually on a phone so I don't see the layout problem he is talking about. Did you address that?[reply]
Nah i didn't deal with images sorry Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't care because I don't see it, so no need to apologize to me. But he deals with ratings and says it will be an issue, is why I ask.
climbing up the learning curve, discussion of copy edit to lede
YThis caused the Barbary wars - what is "this" here? The previous sentence is complex and covers a lot of ground. Barbary Wars seems to think it was about the US deciding enough was enough; this would of course be an American narrative. According to this one it could be everything from bursts of activity to the French Revolution to loss of the rights to use ports. Bursts of activity? Elinruby (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was about Algerian trade issues with europe, it was explained further in the Decline of Algiers subsection, relations with European powers soured after a period of stability in 18th century, and when the US shipping started expanding in the mediterranean, Algiers said no no, either pay tribute or war. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok so "this" is... Increased American trade? That's not in the previous sentence through. Not trying to be difficult; I just want to clarify, because we're trying to cover a lot of ground in a few sentences. Elinruby (talk) 09:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reworked that part in lead, hopefully it's clearer this way. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Note to self to check that. Lede length is an issue according to Scope creep, who would know. But clarity is a good start. Take a stab at reworking my first paragraph while you're in the lede? Elinruby (talk) 10:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:under tribal organization was the following sentence fragment Depending on the region (Mozab, Aurès, Kabylie...) Do we really need it and if so which sentence does it belong to? As far as I can tell it's just examples Elinruby (talk) 02:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nah you did good to remove examples, and at this point I got nothing to add to the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Need short description of Al-Zahar from source in text
@Nourerrahmane: if source is in Arabic this is for you
who is Al-Zahar? Historical historiographer I am guessing? He comes up several times towards the end. Google is telling me about a modern Palestinian politician. Is there another spelling? Arabic Wikipedia article we can link to? Elinruby (talk) 10:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He's a nobleman of sharifian origin from Algeria, lived through and wrote about the later period of the Regency of Algiers, source actually gives a short description of him. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so not really a historiographer, more like a contemporary diarist or commentator? I will un-redlink it if you don't think there's a Wikipedia article.Elinruby (talk) 10:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[5] that's the source, it's called "Memoirs of Hajj Ahmed Al-Sharif Al-Zahar, head of the nobles of Algeria" collected by Algerian Historian Ahmed Tewfik El Madani [6] and honestly it's an important local historical source about later period of Algiers. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not questioning the use of him, just how to explain him him
it's good that you mentioned him in the aristocracy section Elinruby (talk) 12:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like it better this way, thanks. And i'm clueless about the
climbing up the learning curve, discussion of copy edit to lede
YThis caused the Barbary wars - what is "this" here? The previous sentence is complex and covers a lot of ground. Barbary Wars seems to think it was about the US deciding enough was enough; this would of course be an American narrative. According to this one it could be everything from bursts of activity to the French Revolution to loss of the rights to use ports. Bursts of activity? Elinruby (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was about Algerian trade issues with europe, it was explained further in the Decline of Algiers subsection, relations with European powers soured after a period of stability in 18th century, and when the US shipping started expanding in the mediterranean, Algiers said no no, either pay tribute or war. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok so "this" is... Increased American trade? That's not in the previous sentence through. Not trying to be difficult; I just want to clarify, because we're trying to cover a lot of ground in a few sentences. Elinruby (talk) 09:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reworked that part in lead, hopefully it's clearer this way. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:16, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Note to self to check that. Lede length is an issue according to Scope creep, who would know. But clarity is a good start. Take a stab at reworking my first paragraph while you're in the lede? Elinruby (talk) 10:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So what still needs to be done? As far as I know right now (please add any others):
*French trans-titlesdiscussion of tiles
*image alts
jihad
Banana trees might be of interest to Mathglot for agriculture
(Done)also we are obviously not going to use all of these (images) -- going to post to some pirate articles also -- but might like some of these better than what we have. Elinruby (talk) 01:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y wording in lede, resolved
Still in the lede: what is a "wild sea operation"? I rather like the phrase, but I am uncertain whether it means "open sea", "fierce battle" or "unauthorized seizure". Or?
Also I don't recall seeing much about operations off North America, just a couple of mentions of transatlantic trade. I could perhaps have missed something though while I was looking at commas. This question is asked with respect to the principle that the lede should reflect the body. Elinruby (talk) 06:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed to Strong maritime operations, and this is noticed in the Golden Age of Algiers in 17th century section. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y agreement length concern is secondary
Btw, when the Too long article tag was added, the article had around15.000 prose size, i had to update it last december, and right now i don't think it's necessary. we're around 12,200. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Within the letter of policy it's too long still, but this article covers four centuries and discusses multiple countries so it would arguably be an exception. But fixing stuff that bogs down readability usually reduces length also so...I am making small improvements that I see and not really prioritizing length. A few of my changes have added text, like clarifying who "he" is and the like.
Bottom line, not too worried about that. Elinruby (talk) 09:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great ! is there more ambiguity in the article that needs clarification ? Nourerraiñhmane (talk) 09:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y clarify "bursts"
Got sidetracked by an article I am thinking of linking to, and some other stuff. I could use some confirmation that the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars allowed serious Algerian privateering bursts. means that there was more piracy during those periods though Elinruby (talk) 11:59, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the Algeirans took advantage of these wars. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y which emir did what sorted out
Under "Barbarossa brothers arrive" it isn't clear whether the Hafsid emir who would wouldn't give Oruç any more ammunition was the emir of Kuku or of Tunis.Elinruby (talk) 12:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then. Thanks for answer. I don't remember was what I did about the emir, will check. Out of curiosity was the emir of Kuku also a Hafsid, do you know? Elinruby (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to emir of Kuku vs emir of Tunis, I wikilinked Hafsid because this is the first time we have mentioned them. But I have a follow-up question. Was it the emir of Tunis, then, who wanted him to attack Bejaïa? I ask because the sentence right before that is talking about the emir of Kuku. I'll clarify this but want to make sure I have it right first. Elinruby (talk) 19:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC):No, he was asked by notables of Bejaia and Emir of Kuku to help them take back Bejaia from the spanosh when he was operating at sea near the coasts. The Hafsid emir of Tunis hated this, as he beleived rightfully that Barbarossa would establish a state for himself. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PM:Ok so in that sentence "the emir" is still the emir of Kuku, got it. Not really back but will fix when I am. Elinruby (talk) 23:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y answered under "none of the above" collapsed thread
Ok, Tripoli was not wikinked, so I did that, I got a disambiguation notice now.have.to choose between Tripoli,Libya which mostly will be about the modern city probably, or Tripolitania or Ottoman Tripolitania. Since it's in a section about pre-Hispanic trade routes I am thinking I should go with Tripolitania, but everything else in that sentence looks like a city. Thoughts? Elinruby (talk) 18:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They actually ID themselves as Sharidian idrissids, part of the reason why even a Barbarossa top commander joined kuku sultan, he wasn't a hafsid though. regarding tripoli it should be left as it because it was part of the Hafsid realm. Nourerrahmane (talk) 18:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok, so none of the above, is what you are saying? I was thinking Tripolitania. But if that isn't what's being discussed, then you are right, no link is better than a misleading link.
Y Divan or Diwan
Diwan or Divan? Any opinion which is more correct? I don't have one myself, but I think we should spell it the same way throughout the article. Also, should it be capitalized? I am thinking yes because there is only one, so it is almost a name, but your expertise is invited. FWIW this was my rationale for Odjak vs janissary. Elinruby (talk) 02:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both are viable since both exist in RS, don't think it should be capitalized.
emirs sorted in that section. Note to self to look at pirate vs Corsair vs privateer. Privateer implies government license? We seem to be using them as synonyms. Elinruby (talk) 04:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but since they are commonly known as pirates and sources don't really make distinctions regarding Algiers then they are used in the article interchangeably. But in reality they are privateers and a military branch of the Regency of Algiers, the most important one. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
wording issue about tiles is resolved
Getting back to tiles: A radical change occurred in artistic taste, which included the industrial style. What is "industrial style" here? Elinruby (talk) 10:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The decorative use of architechtural ceramics (the tiles basically) i added "decorative". which was missing Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's the word industrial that is bothering me. Are we talking about the new part was the way the tiles were made? There is going to be some detail we have to go into about the words for architectural features to oprobably. Like, the inside of doors is a doorjamb I think (will check) but for tiles to be there, I am wondering if maybe this means "archway".was this translated from French and would there have been a door that swung shut are my next questions. Maybe we need pictures, not for the article but to talk about this. I got there part where they didn't go on the outside of buildings. And patterns.Elinruby (talk) 11:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the word to production, maybe it's clearer this way, could use some help with some errors btw Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
production makes sense thanks. Trying to get to the rest of this. Elinruby (talk) 02:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But was there poetry?
That is what I really want to know. A literary scene in the coffee houses? Music? I know, I am a tough audience Elinruby (talk) 10:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there were a lot,. a lot of petry commemorates the works of the Deys, this for example comemorates the renovation of the gate of Lions ( Bab Sbou'a), one of Algiers' city main gates, by Baba Ali chaouchFile:Coat of Arms bab sboua.jpg. Or in this source a commemoration of the building of the Gate of Jihad (Bab el el bhar),[7] where the corsairs usually gather in the morning before taking the sea for privateering, as they were cheered by the population, praying for safe return and rich catch (According to Boaziz). poetry was also present among Sufi scholars and adherents, Al Jilali and Saad'allah wrote a lot about sufi culture in Algeria, which fourished during this period. . For music you can check page 85 from Spencer's book [8]. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pirates recited poetry before going to sea? I am so glad I asked. This makes my day. Elinruby (talk) 11:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the most famous has been made a popular song in Algeria, "Korsani Ghanem" (My corsair made a catch)[9] by Hachemi Guerouabi, famous Chaabi musician. It was written in the 16th century about a raid against Malta, the fighting, and the rich catch they got from it, including (beautiful women). Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am smiling ear to ear. Length or not this HAS to in. Wowwowow. Where should we put it? Tell you what, think about it and ping me if you add something. I need to sleep now but I will click around in your links a bit first. I know, we list the gates....(?) Elinruby (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I listed some gates and forts in the architecture and Muhammad ben Othman sub section i beleive. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think a small subsection about Poetry or music should be added below Arts. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks, will look in a bit. Elinruby (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Janissaries Also did a lot of poetry, about their pride of Algiers, their courage in fighting, their complaints, and how difficult to reach the heart of a woman. This source is all about this matter [10]Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's tough to reach the heart of a woman ;) what else did they complain about? Elinruby (talk) 11:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Janissaries had their own music genre! Elinruby (talk) 12:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and its Algerian varient is the what we call here "Zorna" [11] this was brought by the Janissaries and used a lot in weddings. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They complained about their lives, the unmarried were barred from marriage before a certain rank i beleive, and the married ones complained of not seeing their wives during long periods of service, some missed their homeland, Anatolia, and others would just express their love for Algiers and how well protected and warlike it is. They also complained about their wages lol Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hehehe don't we all complain about our wages :) But I am not aware of any soldier songs in either English or French that do that. That might be an article at some point if you feel up to it. You've done a lot to share knowledge already Elinruby (talk) 19:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Music section looking really good. I love the image Elinruby (talk) 23:37, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A reference (currently 280) is broke in this section.fixed now)Elinruby (talk) 20:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC) Also, I would like to add your translation of the title of the Chaabi song but I have some niggling vocabulary questions. "Catch" is most often used for fish in English and I would like to use "prize" instead. Also "my corsair" sounds like a person, as if it was a wife who is proud of what her husband brought home, but since the author and the singer are both male I am thinking we must be talking about the shop and its crew? LMK. I think there is a good case to be made for adding the YouTube video as an external link. Elinruby (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: saw and like the added text + ref on coffeehouses. Don't remember
Ber if you mentioned a timeframe. Also see question above Elinruby (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! for translation, Prize is better, "the corsair" rather than "My corsair" as if he's talking about "our armed forces" like he's being proud of his troops. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also why did you reduce the size of the treaty image so much ? do you think it's not worth normal size ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This might be a mobile or skin problem again if you think it is too much. I will look again a different device in a couple hours. My thinking was that it looks really big to me and it's basically a picture of text. The control for that is the number in "upright=" if it's really bothering you,though. If you adjust let me know. Did this with the book also. "The corsair took a prize"? Corsairs are people everywhere else in the article though. Maybe "the corsairs"? Elinruby (talk)
Consolidating open issues slash questions
Going to start striking out some items to make it easier to see what still needs attention Elinruby (talk) 06:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y resolved, short answer none of the above
*
Tripoli in this article didn't really fit any of the items on the disambiguation page and I think we decided to unlink it. But I found Islamic Tripolitania and Cyrenaica. That should be added to the dab page, but isn't that also the Tripoli that we are talking about in this article? Elinruby (talk) 04:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure of the specific instances in question, but in this period we would be referring to the state/province described at
the context was pre-ottoman exports Elinruby (talk) 04:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then I'd guess just link to Tripoli, Libya, which was a local political/economic center anyways. (Still not sure which instance you're referring to, I suppose the first one in "Spanish expansion in the Maghreb"?) R Prazeres (talk) 17:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y discrepancy was an error in the linked article, now fixed
Abu Hammu II is the name of the article but the title displays as "abu Hammu II". There is a lower case title template in the article, so apparently this is on purpose. Is Abu a title? That would make "abu" correct for French, but this isn't French. A problem for another day and I am leaving as abu Hammu II in this article, but do you.know what's up with that? Elinruby (talk) 04:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No this is a typo/mistake, I think I'll move the article there myself. Standard convention is to capitalize it. The only part of Arabic names that is conventionally not capitalized in
PS: Ah I see that the lowercase is due to a template, so that's all that needs to be fixed. R Prazeres (talk) 04:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nod thanks, it just me wonder if there was something I didn't know. Elinruby (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y image caption question answered: language is the painting title
Triennial mandate section: is the image caption The arrival of the new pasha, Viceroy of Algiers sent from by the great lord (Ottoman Sultan) the actual name of the work in this image? If not, the language needs tweaking Elinruby (talk) 05:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A Barbary Pirate", Oil on canvas, 51 inches x 31.5 inches (129.5 x 80 cm) by Giovanni Guida (1837-1895)
this got taken down. Did someone feel it was the wrong period or something? It is already used in Barbary corsairs if someone didn't like it, but if we're ruling it out I just want to know why. In view of better suggestions in future. Elinruby (talk) 05:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Under Crafts, can we talk a little about "head jewelry"? It makes me think crown, but I doubt that is right. Also "adornment jewelry": brooch maybe?Elinruby (talk) 04:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Head jewelry looks like this File:Assabah algérienne.jpghttps://www.pinterest.fr/pin/162903711512652395/] and Yes, a good example of adormnment jewelry is this : [12] "Algerian love knot", it was worn by the corsairs to remind them about their loved ones when they were at sea. This video give intresting informations about it [13]
i am thinking about that love knot as it is an interesting detail I'd like to include if I can come up with a succinct wording. I think "brooch" is usually something a woman wears though, will check, and for some reason I had forgotten about necklaces and bracelets. Did the corsairs usually wear these as pins? And if so where? Turban, chest, arm? I will come back to a proposed wording in this once you let me know.
Could I add (assabah) after "head jewelry" or were there other kinds as well? Maybe "forehead jewelry" would be clearer if that fits?
I don't really have reliable informations about that, although there is a painting in the Corsairs of Algiers article of a corsair wearing earrings, the Deys also bore Golden yatagans and watches from Venice, other than that, i have to check more sources. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok. When you can. It's a minor point, but interesting. Elinruby (talk) 12:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the Deys also bore Golden yatagans and watches from Venice is an interesting point if you have a source handy for that, for the crafts/culture section I was thinking? Elinruby (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
just noting I found the new work in this section that incorporates M.Bitton's suggestion. Looking pretty good; going to do a copyedit now. One thing; Article names start with a capital but the wikilink will work for lower-case also, so you don't need the capitals in the middle of sentences. Just letting you know. Elinruby (talk) 06:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
File:A Barbary Pirate by Giovanni Guida.jpg
Crafts section Nourerrahmane: Did an edit. Shaping up nicely. Even more very detailed questions though. No rush on these, because I haven't finished going through the source and I may be able to cross some of these off myself when I am. But some of them do need you, so here's a preview of current questions:
Bath bucket? I guess these would be more ornate than regular buckets?
Having trouble imagining flexible door knockers. "Looped" is a bit better but still confusing also
most saddles I know about are leather so I don't think saddlers-embroiderers are a thing in English. Golvin says saddlers. I do see gold and silver thread though, citing that specifically. What is cast iron in this context? That would be what the thing is made of, but what is the thing?
Guergour is a region near Tuat I am thinking? And Ghiordés is a knotting technique? is kula a synonym?
Babouche shoes: we have an article on
tirailleurs
(probably true but not just them, I am thinking? Also need to look up how to link that if ok
Getting zero hits on "chebika"except for place names. Is it possible there is another spelling? Same issue with ma'allema and gargaf. In Those from Bône and Djidjilli were polychrome with flat dots does "those" mean lace or embroidery? Google is very confused by Bône in that sentence and not helpfulElinruby (talk) 07:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- No idea.
- Probably, i'm honestly unfamiliar with english spelled shapes of door knockers
- Maybe metal works ?
- Yes it is, here is "Ghiordes" [14] and Kula is a city in modern day Turkey
- I'd prefer slippers! and you can link to Sedira's french article. Well they were worn by pretty much everyone in Algiers for centuries.
- Chebika is a technique that connects seamlessly two pieces of the same cloth, especially in the shoulders, as shown hereNourerrahmane (talk) 08:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ma'allema is the head teacher of tailors, Gargaf is another name for techniques on how to make embroidries, and we're talking basically about embroidery from Bone and Djijeli. Sorry it's badly written. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for answers. It's not exactly bad, but doesn't shine the way it needs to for featured. Some of the lists are a pretty close translation, also, working on that. Going to start by getting rid of bath buckets. Source does say that but...working on it.Elinruby (talk) 09:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. Bath buckets are ornate btw but are mostly imported from Anatolia. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y resolved: there are two different people called Sidi Ahmed
Reconquest of Algiers section: The Battle of Issers article says that it was Sidi Ahmed Ou Moussa (saint) who took Algiers (or did I link the wrong Sidi Ahmed?) But this article says it was the Sultan Belkadi of Kiku, and the Battle of Issers article does not mention Kuku or Belkadi. Yet the timeframe and Berber ethnicity seem right (?) Are these different people? Please advise Elinruby (talk) 07:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s actually sidi ahmad belkadi, It has no relation with that saint. Though Sultan or emir belkadi is more accurate. Sidi is related to his claim of being a descendant from prophet Muhammad. Nourerrahmane (talk) 07:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I will remove the link Elinruby (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i also changed Sidi to Sultan over there Elinruby (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y done, standardizing the spelling of the name in this article as "Heyreddin"
Under Hayrredin's consolidation: Khair ad-Din is Heyreddin right? Planning to standardize the transliteration, any opinion on which is most correct? Elinruby (talk) 08:22, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Both are correct, but i prefer Hayreddin for better for readability. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about readability and conveniently that is what we are mostly using. Leaving this open but only to remind myself to check that the standardization got all instances Elinruby (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in the same section, the image caption fsays "Charardin" -- also Hayreddin? Elinruby (talk) 11:49, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, i kinda wanted to keep the caption as it was written in the image Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ah I missed that. If it is on the image I will just consider it the image title and italicize it, does that work for you? Elinruby (talk) 12:04, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's probably how the Italians spell it, or did, I guess. Elinruby (talk) 12:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the Corsair kings section under Ottoman viceroyalty, isn't there some thing wrong with this sentence? The Ottoman Sultan appointed them over whomever the corsairs suggested as viceroys.Elinruby (talk) 12:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i might replace this info with a new, better worded one. Nourerrahmane (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sure, let me know. It sounds like the corsairs are suggesting the viceroys and it's more that he was sending them and sometimes the corsairs rejected them, wasn't it? Or am I confused about the timeline? Elinruby (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Actually they didn’t refuse them in this period, the rulers of the regency were always corsairs in the beylerbey period. Nourerrahmane (talk) 03:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok. It helps to know that but the sentence. I wandered off into some linked articles but will pick back up in that section. Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y edits have clarified this
Triennial mandate: In 1596, Khider Pasha tried to get rid of the Odjak. A revolt sparked in the city of Algiers, and spread to neighboring towns, but the attempt failed. Was it the attempt to get rid of the Odjak that failed or the rebellion? Also, the link between the two isn't entirely clear.Elinruby (talk) 06:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Khider pasha wanted to get rid of the Odjak or at least reduce its influence, that's why he unleached a popular rebellion against it but he failed. That is because of how autonomous the Odjak was, as its members (janissaries) didn't abide by the command of the Pasha, just like the corsairs. their egalitarian spirit made politics in Algiers very complicated, they wanted to be king makers or at least submit the decisions of the Pasha to their approval first just like the corsairs. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y answered and addressed; no harems because heirs not needed
There is a logic step I am not quite getting here under Society: there were no harems in Algiers since the elected rulers were often politically challenged.[249]. Basically, given all the politics and assassination attempts, leaders kept their households small and agile? Elinruby (talk) 04:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Harems were usually important to have successors, in Algiers it wasn't needed for the rulers since they were elected. Women were kept outside of politics.
restating to verify understanding: on harems the issue was that leaders were elected, more so than that they were challenged. On Khider pasha the rebellion was part of trying to get rid of the Odjak.
changed harem sentence to However, there were no harems in Algiers since the its elected rulers did not require heirs and also were often politically challenged.Elinruby (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aristocratic castes: is "tribal dust" just saying that this is an ancient social structure? (moved from earlier three-item question) Elinruby (talk) 06:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, pre colonial maghreb was tribal to the core, but in the Ottoman period, the tribes started affiliating themselves with "the country of Algiers" or Watan al Djaza'ir.
on tribes I am, I think, grasping the point about centralization. But why is "dust" there? .Maybe I just need to look at the sentence in the source. I think it is just saying that this was an ancient social structure? Elinruby (talk) 08:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
didn't grasp it as much as I thought, thanks for discussion below Elinruby (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Tribal dust" is a term used by the cited author, it 7 tribes didn't care about central authority and cared more about their own strength. This was a response to 19th century French authors who claimed that, since Algerian soceity was mostlly tribal, we cannot speak about the existance of an "Algerian people". French authors in that period often wanted to disregard the role of the Algerian tribes in the administration and politics of Ottoman Algeria. The point was to make the Ottoman elite completely seperated from the population, and that would paint the Ottomans as conquerors and usurpers rather than an Algerian elite that although it kept its Ottoman character, it still seperated itself from the imperial core in istanbul and posed itself as an Algerian central authority that derived its legitmacy from Jihad against christian powers and garenteer of National unity in a sence, as if it was a warrior aristocracy, which is why many Ottoman Algerians married to the tribes to ensure their loyalty to the center and organise internal administration and levy of taxes. Thus, the colonial theory was proved wrong by more recent scholarly Algerian and western sources. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Dust" refers to what colonial authors wanted point out as "tribal anarchy", they were opposed to words like heritage or traditions as this would imply a historical background for the Algerian people, something the French opposed to the point of destroying many historical sites including the lower qasba in Algiers for example. French authorities stripped lands from Algerian tribes and imposed the civil code on what they called "The indiginous pupulations" (The didn't recognize the existance of an Algerian people), Thus cutting tribal ties and seperating members of the same tribe from each other, giving them new family names based on their looks or their job, without giving them French citizenship however. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's sarcasm, "Tribal anarchy" would fit better for understanding i beleive, you see it's a sensitive subject regarding Algerian French relations to this day, French president Macron caused a diplomatic crisis in 2021 when he questionned if there ever was an Algerian nation or people before colonisation. This colonial issue is all rooted in this claim. And don't worry, you have done a lot of good work in this article that i couldn't hope to acheive myself, so thank you for that. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did some additions in society section, hopefully they are clear ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
looking now. I hadn't heard about Macron. But based on what I do (did?) know, there is (was?) plenty to be sensitive about, so don't apologize. And listen, all these incremental changes I am making do, I believe, improve the article, but it's a really substantial piece of work, and very important IMHO. It portrays a living breathing culture and not just the cartoonish propaganda about US Marines in Tripoli, which is what, if anything, most Americans are going to know about the period. As you've noticed, I am also doing a fast run through some of the related articles and I am seeing a lot of work by you in those also. So. Somebody noticed what you are doing, just so you know. Elinruby (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:I see. An important point then. I am not going to take it out. But why dust as opposed to heritage or traditions?
So it's sarcasm? Because correct me if I am wrong and maybe this is what I am not understanding, isn't this author Algerian not French? People may just have to click on the reference. But meantime I gather that this is important, don't worry about that, if you are. Also, I may speak French and not Arabic but I am no apologist for the French colonial government and have previously discussed with someone the parallels between the Western betrayal of Eastern Europe and what the French did in Africa and North Africa.
fairly substantive change here to wording but not I think to meaning, trying to bring out the loyalty to the country I think you are talking about. I see the stuff about marabouts and I think it is good. Previously you could tell they were important but not so much how. I did just go through the articles about marabouts that are linked in the lede. This is a good example of material that will be very new to most English speakers though, so there may be questions. In fact -- you say oasis. I think there is more than one, though, right? Changing to oases plural unless you stop me. Going through Society section again from the top. I think infantilization is a feature of most colonialism and not limited to Algeria. But it's Algeria we are talking about, and I think I understand better. Merouche does not have a preview on Google Books though. If you are taking long-term suggestions, I have seem people add pages to the Internet Archive. I would have trouble doing that from here, but if you are in a city or have access to a scanner, it's a thought. Elinruby (talk) 16:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, i will check for sure, Merouche' study is valuable. As always yhe changes you made are most welcome and allow for better readability, yes marabouts are important, they were a sort of internal legitimacy for the Ottoman elite, in exchange they had a cut in the corsair spoils and many previledges. And yes there is more than one oasis since the awlad sidi cheik ruled over large chunk of the Sahara. As for the Siba tribes, yes are rebellious or at least unsubordinate to central authority. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y rebelling -> insubordinate
Social structures: word dissident is used correctly but generally is seen with respect to individual Russian critics of the Kremlin. Changing explanation of siba to "rebellious".Comments? Elinruby (talk) 17:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Copied from three-part answer elsewhere As for the Siba tribes, yes are rebellious or at least unsubordinate to central authority. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
insubordinate may be better at that Elinruby (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the "timar" system was not applied in Algiers, and the beylerbeys would instead send an annual tribute to Constantinople after meeting the expenses of state: the equivalency is not clear here. Timar=land grant for pay? Unless the soldiers were paid by Constantinople from the tribute? Elinruby (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but this was done in directly administred provinces of the Ottoman empire, elite soldiers 'Sipahis' were granted land in echange for tax in kind, The siphais would later tranform it into cash. In Algeria this was not applicable, it was the Pasha or the beys that sent troops and makhzen tribes to collect taxes from tributary regions, After receiving taxes from the various beyliks and after the Pasha had finished his annual spending, he would send an annual tribute to the Sublime porte, in return he would receive new volontaries from the Ottoman lands to be trained as janissaries. This is one of the important aspects that made Algiers and other barbary states as tributary states rather than regular provinces. Later on, this tribute became more symbolic and kinda transformed into Eid presents, though no less valuable. Nourerrahmane (talk) 21:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok so I remember that the Porte said fine, been autonomous, but you're paying the soldiers. So there is no equivalency, there is a contrast. And the quid pro quo for the taxes was a supply of new soldiers. Do I have that right now? Elinruby (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, and it was indicative of subordination also (even if it's nominal), it's the Pasha of Algiers and his diwan that pay the salaries of soldiers. the revolution of 1659 was first understood by the Grand viziermehmet Koprulu as ceasing of tribute, and so he threatened not to send any more volonteers for Algiers and that he would ban Ottoman ports from supplying the corsairs, he would also threaten to declare Algiers a Kharijite state and a rebellious entity in the islamic ummah, so the Ottoman Algerians (diwan) accepted to have an Ottoman representative without having executive power however. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Oh, one more thing, any Pasha that fails to pay the soldiers in time would meet a terrible end and gets replaced, a well written letter to the sultan was sufficient enough to send a new 'hopefully' more competent one, the ruler would get elected after the revolution, so you can see that this regency was all about the military elite and not a strong man leadership, at least not untill later in the dey's period. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently I linked wrong stuff? Good catch if so, looked right to me. Elinruby (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will try to boot up the laptop. I am also not sure I got alts on all the images. Elinruby (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can do the images, and the alts today if you want. I do them when I get back. I think there is only about 4-6 needing done. I will start checking the alts now. scope_creepTalk 08:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: Have you have any preference for what to use for the images. There seems to be quite a mix of styles, some are plain galleries, some are packed, some are standalone. I notice that some images are quite far away from their associated sections, for example in the Algeria section. I would be nice to bring them together underneath the section that they are spoken about. I suspect is is probably GA fail to have them so far away. scope_creepTalk 08:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing I have done with images so far is some of the alts. I think the other editor who set that up is open to suggestions and help. They certainly have been when it comes to the text. Elinruby (talk) 09:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane:Elinruby (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for a response I guess. On the small matter, Ref 282 I put a ref=none on a further reading entry but it seems its been used as a citation. I would assume copying into the citations sections under A for "Awareness foundation for research and development"? scope_creepTalk 09:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are usually active about this time, also @R.Prazeres:. I think it is ok to get started, the subject matter experts are not shy about saying something is wrong. And Nourerrahmane was hoping for another review from you above. Elinruby (talk) 09:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@R Prazeres:Elinruby (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC) ah yes that awareness link. It is in the Music section and it doesn't work. It's on one of the lists above I think. If neither one shows up I can see if there is a source in French for whatever it was Elinruby (talk) 09:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Heading now. Will be back for 3 and hopefully there should be some word from them. Ref 14 and 149 need looked at. Ref 282 is fixed. 282 doesn't have a named editor or author, just the org. scope_creepTalk 09:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok thanks I will do that now if they are French or English, looking. Elinruby (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. It sounded like he was headed home so that should work out. I am fixing the Danish reference someone left us. Elinruby (talk) 09:54, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y referencing improvements done
I've fixed reference 14 with a better ref. That beeb one was pretty poor. scope_creepTalk 17:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "Chenntouf|1999|p=188" ref 56 is not accurate. It should actually be "Njeuma|1999|p=188". It needs a new cite for it. scope_creepTalk 17:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed reference 14 with a better ref. That beeb one was pretty poor. scope_creepTalk 17:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "Chenntouf|1999|p=188" ref 56 is not accurate. It should actually be "Njeuma|1999|p=188". It needs a new cite for it. scope_creepTalk 17:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y Scope creep and Mathglot re bug for references in notes
Worked on images, hopefully it's better this way. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Nourerrahmane: The ones in the education section need done and the "War with Spain" section and the "Reconquest of Algiers" section also. They might complain about the top image in the "Ali Bitchin Raïs" section.
Hi @Nourerrahmane: You don't need to necessarily take any images away. You can use the Template:Multiple image to group images underneath a particular section or paragraph. It good as it gets it very close to where the thing is being spoken about. Might be helpful. scope_creepTalk 15:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for those suggestions, I hope they are answered now. Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry guys over in the Pacific time zone I fell asleep. I did build out a citation for that Danish reference 149 and will add it shortly if Scope creep didn't already get to it. I'll be gone most of the day though. Elinruby (talk) 16:33, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the Notes section for reason sfnlinks are being used for some reason. They look kind of odd when they are bracketed like that. At least one is the normal sfn link, but it loo Is there any reason for it? scope_creepTalk 17:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed a couple of refs of Kaddache on two different years and they are working fine, look more akin what is already used and link properly to the cite, but its left behind an odd harv error message. I've left an help request at the help desk as I don't recognise that error message. Somebody will turn up soon to fix it. I see there is a mountain of folk following this article. There is between 500-700 folks looking at it every day. scope_creepTalk 18:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sfnlinks are used in the Notes section as a workaround for a
list-defined reference. A description of this bug can be found at Template:Sfn. They do not need to be bracketed (add param |nb=yes for "no bracketing"), and you can put any text you want there (use param |text= ), but only the mediawiki software can generate and apply superscript, bracketed, numeric footnote links, so whatever text we use, it can't be that. (ec) Mathglot (talk) 19:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
I'll change it tommorrow and fix the error fix I reverted. scope_creepTalk 19:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scope creep: I collapsed this because I was pretty sure it was taken care of, LMK if not Elinruby (talk) 07:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Article size
Not sure how much of a concern article length is (probably not much), but here's some data, and my take on it.
As of rev. 1212668868 of 00:48, 9 March 2024, raw byte size is now 170,271. Using my software, I count 499 paragraphs, 15,602 words, and 80,560 printable characters including lead, body, section headers, and Notes, but not including sidebar, ToC, bracketed superscript footnote numbers, See also, References, or anything below References.
The
WP:SIZESPLIT
table is on an Info page (not policy, not guideline) and suggests:
> 9,000 words ⟶ Probably should be divided or trimmed
> 15,000 words ⟶ Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed
but this table is problematic.
Note that afaict, there is no recognized method of determining how to count words in a Wikipedia article. There is a tool under Xtools which gives a reliable (in the scientific sense of "repeatable") number for "prose words", but that value is almost completely useless, because it does not include table content, and it leads to absurdly ridiculous values, such as calculating a value of 45 words for the article
List of Glagolitic manuscripts
, which happens to be the #1 longest of all 6,817,455 articles at Wikipedia.
I think my count of 15,602 is a pretty accurate one, and by the table count, this is in "definitely split or trim" territory. So, if nominating this for GA, that should be taken into account. To get it down to "may need to be split" territory of 8,000 words, you'd have to cut it approximately in half.
On the other hand, raw byte size is now 170,271, and plenty of articles are much longer than that. Take some European country articles:
WP:SPLIT info page has some serious issues, is not a guideline, and doesn't represent the reality of articles out there, so we can pretty much ignore it. Mathglot (talk) 01:49, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
yeah we've talked about this. When I brought this up Nourerrahmane was against a split on the basis that it's a top-level article with a meta scope. I have to agree that it's an attempt to cover 400 years of naval and land warfare, empires and political trends, holy wars and religious institutions. Oh and poetry, since I asked. Nothing if not ambitious and I am somewhat awed by it. I think it's a case for ignoring that guideline especially since it weaves together a lot of the scattered small articles that went through PNT.
I am keeping an eye on it though. On the other phone I have a setting enabled that was telling me I had it down to 11,000 some, just by eliminating passive tense and repetition where I saw it, and I just reworked the education section and cut maybe 50 more around the edges. I think this may also be a case for overlinking some terms, since there is a lot of terminology that English speakers will find hard to remember, like makhzen (Algeria) which is nonetheless pretty crucial. Elinruby (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also added a lot of sources, the notes and bibliography section are particularly big. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:50, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that's a good thing. The article size is guideline is "readable text". So no references or wikilinks count.Elinruby (talk) 14:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that's probably why my count is so much lower, if Mathglot was using word or something similar. Maybe. Mathglot's the one that usually does templates so for all I know I'm the one who's wrong. Elinruby (talk) 14:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right now word count is 11,642. There is in fact a table, but it isn't huge. Elinruby (talk) 18:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
just noting that this count is according to an Xtools gadget called Prosesize that I got by clicking a box in settings. Elinruby (talk) 04:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About
WP:VPR to completely junk the current counting system that determines when articles are split based on prose size and propose a new one, because the current system is completely incoherent. P.S. I am not using Word, and I am including tables and lists, and excluding refs; and yes, more refs are a good thing, and no matter how many you add, it won't affect my word count calculation. Mathglot (talk) 02:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
nod I suspected Mathglot the template editor would have already examined the guts of anything technical he posted about. Still going to use Prosesize for benchmarking purposes here though, just for my own private curiosity. The material is very dry and unfamiliar in places and fewer shorter words generally improves readability, which is the main goal here. (How many trade agreements and battles can a single section usefully discuss? It's turning into an intellectual challenge.)
(everything in this section is done, reducing click-heaviness by collapsing the header, striking some side snark about the Dukes of Guise)fresh questions
Starting a new section because I'm not done sorting the others.
explaining an edit summary about Duke of Guise
By the way, Nourerrahmane the edit summary on the edit you were just looking at must go with the edit before it I guess. I was complaining about "Duke de Guise" or Duc of Guise, something like that. Also maybe he was from Provence, I didn't know that, but he is famous for intrigue at court slash national politics. If it's the same Duke, but that's probably true of all the Dukes of Guise.
Y education section clarification
Yeducation section: says madrassas depended on local authorities and also that the central government gave them money. I'm thinking that the central government was involved in the secondary schools in the cities, but please clarify.
round bottoms, copied below
bottoms on boats apparently were important to the Atlantic raids because they are harder to sink and also allow sails and a rudder? Is that your understanding? This guy apparently had a lot to do with that. Comments?
Round bottom boats allowed sailors to head up rivers deep into the country and make an attack. scope_creepTalk 07:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agriculture and land
Scope creep questions from above: The sentence now reads The state and urban notables owned lands near the main towns, cultivated by tenant farmers who were paid a fifth of the harvest, under the khammas system for sharecropping common land please check and if you can source. This is what I am getting from search results but when I go to links it takes me to pages that are unavailable and I am probably too sleep deprived right now anyway to dig in sources. There was also something about religious sharecropping (?)
Since I mentioned you, Scope, you go, sir, yes, that is that I was trying to fix. Please improve if you can.
I sort of grasp usufruct but I don't have a pithy explanation yet. The other word (melk?) currently has "properties" in parentheses following it. How about I change that to "estates" to make it clearer that we're talking about land use here? Or is there a better word? Still in the agriculture section, there's another word I don't remember right now that is explained as good land near cities. What is good about it? It's flat? It's not the Sahara? Please advise. Elinruby (talk) 09:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
noting this before I lose it. Extended discussion of land tenure. Another mention of fate orchards and irrigation systems Elinruby (talk) 23:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
refactoring break (fresh questions)
The 09:33 comment and follow-ups to it were originally placed in the § Article size section above, but belong here.
typo causing problems got fixed
@Elinruby I can't reply to your fresh questions section, dunno why, so i will reply here
YI forgot to close a bracket, I just noticed. Might cause that depending on which tools you use. Might be fixed now if so
resolved stuff about the Duke of Guise, nothing to do here
- I don't exactly know about this duke, as the sources i worked with didn't really specify who he was
Y q about schools resolved
- Yes, such as this inscription of a school comissioned by Dey Baba Ali chaouch File:Sokeli Ali Pasha Algerian school.jpg, but most of their Madrassas were left for notables and religious authorities to take care of.
I added this image to the section, which needed some visual appeal anyway, and a sentence about Baba Ali Chaouch.
coffeehouses
I still wish there was one more sentence about coffeehouses, but snippet view on that source isn't helping much.
- i might find something about cofffeehouses. gotta chose a good source for that. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More resolved stuff about the Duke of Guise, nothing to do here
YDon't worry about the Duke, I just realized I was being confusing is all. Hopefully that explains why I was talking about English and French.Elinruby (talk) 07:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
followed up below
bottoms on boats apparently were important to the Atlantic raids because they are harder to sink and also allow sails and a rudder? Is that your understanding? This guy apparently had a lot to do with that. Comments?
Round bottom boats allowed sailors to head up rivers deep into the country and make an attack. scope_creepTalk 07:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Copied from a three-part answer above by Nourerrahmane above): Exactly, they were the reasons why the corsairs managed to sail in the Atlantic. Galleys were manoeuvrable but were more adequate for mediterranean waters. and that corsair was important because even though he did a lot contributions to the fleet of Algiers (and made a lot of prizes) he still was behind a diplomatic crisis between Algiers and France, called the two canonns case, he left the fleet of Algiers because of a secret deal with the duke of guise. [17] this source is dedicated for this case as it was the origin of the first historical billateral treaties between Algeria and France.
(my name mistake Elinruby (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)) Murad/Murat yeah he took some cannon with him when he left and gave them to the Duke, which caused a problem with the treaty? Is there a generic name for round bottom boats? Every time I type that I hear the Queen song, and if you don't know it, be glad. Elinruby (talk) 09:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Simon Re'is. is his actual name, when he took the cannons, negociations with the french halted because of the Bastion problem (Algiers refused the Ottoman capitulations to France), his case kinda added oil to fire. and war ended only when the two cannons were returned. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
round bottoms sail, flat bottom oar
- Exactly, they were the reasons why the corsairs managed to sail in the Atlantic. Galleys were manoeuvrable but were more adequate for mediterranean waters. and that corsair was important because even though he did a lot contributions to the fleet of Algiers (and made a lot of prizes) he still was behind a diplomatic crisis between Algiers and France, called the two canonns case, he left the fleet of Algiers because of a secret deal with the duke of guise. [15] this source is dedicated for this case as it was the origin of the first historical billateral treaties between Algeria and France.
Ok so just to make sure I've got this, flat bottomed boats has oars. Round bottomed boats had sails and rudders. Elinruby (talk) 00:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake. I just added the raid on the Faroe Islands. I think *that* was Murad.
ships:Yeah round bottoms have sails flat bottoms had oars right? This is actually an important technological advances, going to try to squeeze in a word or two.
Individual corsairs have articles in some cases. Not sure if due when we are already overlong.Elinruby (talk) 11:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Raïs reis Re'is etc
Y Agreement reached that when used as a title in this article we will use "Reis"
I think I will add at least one of the bios to See also. I think Simon Reis is mentioned in the text already, will check. Elinruby (talk) 08:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(followup from round bottom ships thread) yes he is mentioned by name with respect to the cannons he gave the Duke of Guise (who is in fact mentioned as governor of Provence at the time, but that's just distracting since he is more important as a military commander and royal advisor so yes, let's keep Provence out of this. Btw I updated the wikilink to point to a specific Duke of Guise). My question about Simon however is that he is mentioned in the article as Zymen Danseker but Nourerrahmane seems to feel it should be Simon Re'is. I agree I think, since this is Ottoman history and he is presumably more likely to be found in those sources under the name he used in Algiers. We won't lose the Dutch name since we link to it, but the article seems to only give European names. Bottom line, changing this name to Simon Re'is in the text unless someone objects.
followup to the followup:why is it Re'is though, and not the Reis we are using elsewhere as a title? If this is just a transliteration problem, totally fine with that but for purposes of this article we need to pick one and use it consistently when we refer to individual pirates Elinruby (talk) 23:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The corsairs of the Regency always carry the title "Reis" in their names, Oruç Reis, Hamidou Reis, and others listed in the article, this if we want to stick to their Ottoman Barbary corsair affiliation. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should for the reasons above, but should we use Reis or Re'is? I have no opinion and just want to know which way to standardize it Elinruby (talk) 00:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both are used in RS, Reis would do better for me. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y Reis it is then for purposes of this article. This is answered as far as I am concerned but will leave uncollapsed for a while in case there is an objection to the part about using pirate names Elinruby (talk) 00:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Fantastic coffeehouse image Nourerrahmane) I saw and love the coffeehouse painting. I took one image out of the gallery because when I added the translation of the Arabic from Commons it made a really really long and narrow caption. I am open to solving this some other way.
Nourerrahmane Arabic questions
I also would like to add your translation of the name of the song in the Music section, but I tbink it needs work so I am copying this unanswered questiom here from up the page: A reference (currently 280) is broke in this section. Also, I would like to add your translation of the title of the Chaabi song but I have some niggling vocabulary questions. "Catch" is most often used for fish in English and I would like to use "prize" instead. Also "my corsair" sounds like a person, as if it was a wife who is proud of what her husband brought home, but since the author and the singer are both male I am thinking we must be talking about the shop and its crew? LMK. I think there is a good case to be made for adding the YouTube video as an external link. Elinruby (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC) Maybe "My Ship Captured a Prize" That:s my best guess, but it's a guess. Please advise Elinruby (talk) 17:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Crisis of the 19th century section --@Nourerrahmane: could you please check the big word order/sentence flow edit I did against the Boaziz that supports that analysis? I don't think I changed the meaning, but there is definitely an important synthesis here that needs to come from a historian, and of course I can't read the source to check it myself. Adding a "quote=" parameter to the citation would be good. Thanks. If there is an issue, do your own rewrite and ping me so I can check the word choice and such. Elinruby (talk) 00:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby So i made small rewording, removed the public opinion about war since the population favored the war against Europe but hated taxes, actually privateering brought wealth. And added the Aftermath of the barbary wars in Algiers. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can also check my recent additions to fix issues or do some trimming. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nodnod. That's why I keep telling you I've done something when there is any doubt in my mind that I have changed the meaning, and I appreciate the same. Especially when we are parsing stuff like "or chiefdom, princedom, vassal, confederation or dynasty" that probably needs to me explained. PS: have you seen my followup to the song title question. How about "Our Ship Crew Took a Prize"? My ship took April,e? The thing is, "my Corsair" is still a person to me. And if he belongs to me, then that would make "me" either his wife or his sovereign. And the singer and the author of poem are me, right? Elinruby (talk) 17:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Stale update)::::Elin i'll be back at this soon, since i'm focusing on checking paraphrasing and verifiability right now :) Nourerrahmane (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
No problem whatever works. These questions mostly aren't holding anything up except for the zellij one. Please do that one first when you come back to questions, and sign off on any sections you are certain do not need further review. I am going to try to wind up that last history section now. Elinruby (talk) 21:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
arbitrary break (fr questions)
this break added to separate it from refactored/moved content above that may be out of order chronologically.
I reworked agriculture a bit, hopefully it's clearer this way, "estates" fits better with this subject. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the ""Ottoman suzerainty weakens"' it talks about a 17th century treaty and then moves to the 16th century. Should that not come after, as it seems to be related. scope_creepTalk 11:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it looks like it is now in chronological order? There is a big gap in dates there though, maybe room for improvement there Elinruby (talk) 00:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would @Mathglot: be able to come with a pithy sentence. I'm still not sure what it is, and the reviewer wont either. Is it is product or a legal definition? scope_creepTalk 14:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is the benefit of a shared property. I think. But is the benefit a title or the harvest and is that common law legal term even an exact fit? Elinruby (talk)
01:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
actually civil law apparently Elinruby (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest changing it (melk) to estates. The wikidictionary lookup for "melk" is dutch for milk, so can't link there and its only a single entry so serves little purpose, no descriptive text or context. scope_creepTalk 14:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See below, Mathglot attempt. It sounds like "estates" is better but still not quite right. Serfdom might have a vocabulary word for us. Elinruby (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 84. It states p.634 looks to be an advert for other books. It doesn't look like the correct page number. scope_creepTalk 11:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 150 needs replaced. There is not author information on it. I'll try and find an academic ref for it now. Did that previous ref get fixed that was the same book but a previous chapter. I'll check it. scope_creepTalk 14:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't find a ref for this today. Lots on the event, but little of the sacking of the three ships/enslavement. Must be summat. scope_creepTalk 22:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Elin, hope you don't mind, I changed your bullets to numbers to make it easier to respond individually. Feel free to revert. Mathglot (talk) 21:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
whatever works.
Btw collapsed text means I think it is resolved, but fresh eyes checking.me would be wonderful. Elinruby (talk) 00:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Collapsed is fine; if you are referring to the edit where I uncollapsed two of them, it's because there was a lack of balance (top/bottom) templates, and/or the top was in one section and the bottom in another, and that breaks the page; both top and bottom have to be in the same section. If you want a handy indicator of "doneness" see {{tick}} or {{aye}} or {{done}} (and if you scroll down the /doc page, there's a whole table of other ones) and you can add that to the collapse bar.
Y Example of a collapsed section with a {{tick}} mark.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
nope, Mathglot who loves you,? I hadn't noticed. I am usually not subtle in complaining either as you know. Just trying ad hoc to track what still needs an answer and what doesn't. Please feel free to fix any havoc I may wreak due to fatigue; putting in some hours here trying to wrap up. Just explaining what I am trying to do. I don't usually try to moderate talk page discussions but these are exceptionally intricate and detailed due to all the material the article is trying to cover. Elinruby (talk) 06:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
both top and bottom have to be in the same section noted Elinruby (talk) 06:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These questions are open for comment from whoever knows
Tuat has a fairly extensive description of an irrigation system and a tribal initiative to grow date alms. But is this Regency of Algiers agriculture or an example of a trade network? Elinruby (talk) 08:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: so ::somewhere in the article we say that he tribes of the central oases were not their own central power but vassals. Scope of article question: if they are vassals are they Regency of Algiers? If not, then the irrigation system, however interesting, would be out of scope, right? I was wondering about thinking of governance issues with the tribes, but if the central government was not involved in the project, then this would this would not be an example of tbst. LMK; this may apply to triage of the photos of women wearing jewelry. Which I have quite a few of now, if anyone is interested Elinruby (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are a semi independent pricipality with their own organisation, but they still owe alliegence to Algiers and provide either regular tribute or send military detachements if needed, but they are not a state, more like tribal confederations who own lands within the broader control of the Regency of Algiers. But honestly i have no deep insight of their organization, but central government was not involved in managing their lands, and this was the case for most of the regency, tribes were often self sufficient but they had to owe alliegence by sending tribute or men as auxilaries for the center governement. but you know most of these tribes are pastoralists or engage in date cultivation, and are still dependent on the markets of the north to sell their products, these markets are organized by agents or marabouts belonging to central governement. Irrigation system is applied where the lands belong to governement or nobles directly linked to it. Hope this answers the question. Nourerrahmane (talk) 04:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should still speak of desert agriculture since the tribes are linked with Algiers economically and politically, as explained in the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 04:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Hassan-Bey is now irrelevant since -- correct me if I am wrong -- I believe it was determined to be non-RS)Hasan-Bey reference (50) has no page numbers for me. Is this a me problem? Canada annoyed some internet companies recently by passing a copyright law and I sometimes have Google Books problems that other people don't. If it's me, I was specifically trying to verify the instance in the manufacturing section Elinruby (talk) 11:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(cluebotwas right on this one)Kingdom of England section under Foreign Policy: Image seems disproportionately large? By maybe 20%? Elinruby (talk) 11:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC) Also rec by N for jewelry Elinruby (talk) 21:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Urgently needs doing
Manufacturing section; word for word translation of Kaddache, so we aren't doing this for nothing. Definitely the last two sentences. Looking at a snippet view and am having trouble finding the right words to make "ropemaking" appear. Currently unsure if the sentences before that are uncited or from Kaddache. More checking needed. Elinruby (talk)
Arbitrary break
(moved to checklist)War with Spain: the tip picture in the gallery is of Danish ships. Should that be under War with Denmark? Elinruby (talk) 15:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
):I added those pictures for the entire section, maybe a third picture would make it clearer ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
Maybe! I am going backwards in time so I might be missing something. But Scope creep seems to say that we don't need to worry about too many pictures, and he follows policies quite closely. I personally think they are good. I think my answer is that if it isn't hard go ahead and add it. We can always take it back out. And if was about French ships (that's the section above Denmark I think?), then yeah that might be clearer. If it's not that easy right now, then wait and see what Scope has to say, is my thought. I was just noting my confusion.Elinruby (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Finally done)War with Spain still: What's this stuff about a presidency? Presidio maybe? This might be machine translation edited by bots. Also, seemed like Oran got Algiers back in a treaty then there were anti-pirate expeditions, then negotiations, then suddenly Oran is Spanish. Re-read and double check what happened there. Elinruby (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
*I have bolded some topics in discussion topics. If that is obnoxious let me know and I will stop. Scope creep one of the sections where did that was in a section of your. Hope that is ok. The questions didn't seem to be getting answered.
Melk
Regarding #6: the Melk is a kind of private property with restrictions attached in Morocco and Algeria, which reminds me slightly of sharecropping or homesteading. I wouldn't use the word estate at least in the beginning period; maybe they turned into that later?
The Melk arose in Morocco in the more-or-less forced reconstitution of private property esp. in agriculture by the Sultan, after a period of tribal/nomadic understanding of land rights. (I didn't read back far enough to understand exactly what kind of land organization there was before this; some kind of nomadic tribal paradigm.) Anyway, after coming out of the old nomadic tribal system in which agriculture and the economy had broken down economically in some fashion and things were dire, the Sultan went from one tribe to the next, pressuring or obliging them to accept a new form of private property, the Melk, which I guess was anathema to the earlier scheme of nomadic rights over land, in which the Sultan granted a head of family a piece of property as long as they worked it, and also gave them certain rights over it, like heritability, but limited other rights, like I don't think they could sell it. Reminds me of a 99-year leaseholder in England, or maybe sharecropping in the South or homesteading in the westward expansion in the United States. Most of this comes from page 22-23 here, and this source mentions Melks five times, but there are plenty of books published from around 1870–1920 which talk about Melks (which means not under copyright and you can read every page). (Note: the French plural of Melk is Melk; I wrote Melks here in English, but I haven't seen that form yet because I only have French sources so far.)
There is also a French Wiktionary entry for fr:wikt:Melk which is not bad with three examples, but the book sources are better. At my current (minimal) level of understanding of Melk, I wouldn't use estate. What word do they use for the land a serf would plow, or a sharecropper would raise corn? Maybe we could use that word. Please take everything I say here with a grain of salt; I never heard of Melk before this, and my understanding of it is very incomplete. Also, I think it came into being in the 12th c., if I read my source right.
By the way, this Melk scheme of heritability but no sale, also reminds me of when they're creating a new National Park, and people can't buy property there anymore, but old folks who were there already are grandfathered in and can stay on their land forever until they die, but cannot sell their house (or in this case, their kids can't inherit it either, so unlike a Melk in that sense). Anyway, the point being, a legal term often involved in that kind of incomplete land ownership rights within a National Park is usufruct, in which the people get to enjoy the land, even grow/harvest and sell, crops, lumber, or whatever and make a profit, but the land itself isn't theirs to sell. So, there may be a natural link from Melk to usufruct. Mathglot (talk) 22:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathglot: what melk scheme are you referring to? I can't seem to find the word melk in the article. M.Bitton (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it. If we can get a definition across to en:wikt, we can get it back in. Interesting there may be a relationship with usufruct, but of course its that same domain, land right/land use. I'm going to do more work on it tommorrow. scope_creepTalk 22:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this comes up under agriculture Elinruby (talk) 00:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nice article; pp. 748–749 are particularly on point about melks (this French article does add -s for the plural) and points out the rather uncertain status of property in Islamic law, contrasting it with the notion of private property in the Western tradition anchored in Roman law and in the French civil code, in which full property rights are well defined and consist of usus, fructus and abusus (roughly, use/enjoyment, profit, and disposal rights). Mathglot (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scope creep reference validation
Y ref 150 fixed
Ref 150. Ref 150. The three ships were captured before the war started in 1770. The three ships being captured happened sometime between 1766-1770 after the Danish refused to up the tribute. That was likely the reason I couldn't find a reference for it yesterday. That section will need revisted. scope_creepTalk 08:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Used boaziz as a source, which says that the Danes bombarded Algiers first, then the corsairs started hunting Danish ships for a year before peace was concluded, if there is another viable source that'll be welcome. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it to further reading. scope_creepTalk 09:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scope creep Ok good, just trying for clarity. I am still in the bottom sections so we shouldn't have any edit conflicts. Just getting in here. Going to close or consolidate some more threads, trying to see what is still open Elinruby (talk) 09:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y seems resolved unless someone thinks otherwise
I don't think the Wikiwix archive is used on en Wikipedia? Its predominatly an fr Wikipedia archive. Would that be true? I seen two references to it. scope_creepTalk 18:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i wondered about that. Unsure. I have seen it before but don't remember an outcome.Elinruby (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spoke to the help desk, it is used all the time on en Wikipedia. scope_creepTalk 05:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y First Mercier ref fixed
Can we swap out the site reference for the Gallica link at [16] which is the third volume? That [17] url seems to be an empty site and is probably unsuitable as ref? scope_creepTalk 06:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just finish some work in the article and i'll get back to this if you don't mind. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added more RS and few content, please check them out when you have time. Thanks! Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, though i have Mercier as a PDF so i don't remember how that url went there in the first place. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've swapped out url for a Gallica archive link. scope_creepTalk 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
stale update
Referencing checklist
Let's try this: if you have verified that references in a given section are verified and don't paraphrase too closely, check and cross off the section name below then sign I have done two sections I have finished below. If you do find a problem, or need language help, start a list item under "Houston we have a problem" or a separate section if you prefer. Elinruby (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Checklist worksheet
1 History
1.1 Establishment (1516–1533)
1.1.1
Spanish expansion in the Maghreb (Making a start scope_creepTalk 15:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
Seems ok so far apart from reference 15, seems to be wrong. Vol 2 starts at p695 and vol 1 at p93 is talking about Castallan sheep. The arabicref is very wishy-washy but accurate, no far no close paraphrasing. scope_creepTalk 16:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No paraphrasing. Ref 16 covers a lot of space for one page in Abun-Nasr. The sentence need split with a couple of other refs, to illustrate effects. scope_creepTalk 16:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2 more citations were added, Ref 15 replaced. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check these when I finish next section tommorrow. scope_creepTalk 00:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine. Well-written. Your need a ref for sentence that begins "This allowed the Spaniards to control the"
Y This is done. The analysis on this excellent. scope_creepTalk 09:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.2 Barbarossa brothers arrive (Making a start [User:scope_creep|scope_creep]]Talk 08:05, 15 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
Its well-written and no paraphrasing. Two things
I can't find the 1512 date.
Hess 61 covers 1512. Just noticed this is already checked, so collapsing with very minor ce Elinruby (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find the idea that hundreds of spanish soldiers were captured.
I'll check these again after do the above. scope_creepTalk 08:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Al jilali ref p 38, says 600 prisoners but I put hundreds to avoid contradiction with other refs. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably the translation software is mispresenting the number. I don't know arabic. I tried it in bing, google and deepl and they report 6 prisoners, so it may wrongly translated. scope_creepTalk 14:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y This is done. Checked earlier. scope_creepTalk 21:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.3 New masters of Algiers (Making a start scope_creepTalk 08:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
This sentence "The occupation of Bougie" is enormous and needs split with refs added.
I shaved it down a bit. Also changed "forsook" to "swore to forsake" Elinruby (talk) 01:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked this yesterday with the helpdesk. There is nothing in the
WP:MOS about sentence length, but needs to succint. The GA editor will check it and if needs, it will get done then. If its smaller, it should be better. scope_creepTalk 10:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
,,:Ibroke it into three sentences and edited for flow Elinruby (talk) 08:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oruç set out at the head of 5,000 Kabyles sentence needs a ref. scope_creepTalk 09:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Qara Hassan isn't mentioned in these refs. scope_creepTalk 09:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 35 is a barest of mention, of the spaniards being defeated and leaving. I would take it out. scope_creepTalk 09:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully all those points were answered. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no close paraphrasing and its well-written. scope_creepTalk 09:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is checked and completed. Yscope_creepTalk 10:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.4 Campaign of Tlemcen: Death of Oruç (Making a start scope_creepTalk 14:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
No paraphrasing and its well written. One point:
On "Then they laid siege to Tlmecen" The siege last 6 months and the text gives the impression it was a few days.
I changed this to "then they began a six-month siege of Tlemcen" Elinruby (talk) 05:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is checked and completed. Yscope_creepTalk 10:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.5 Algiers joins the Ottoman Empire
Ref 45 doesn't seem to hit the mark at all. Hugo 2014 seems to be discussing woments p.224 The sentence is also huge with multiple events. scope_creepTalk 15:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So Hugo is gone, meaning all subsequent numbers will be +1. I have another source;looking at Vatin. Elinruby (talk) 06:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
distant and so close to Spain quite perilous is unreferenced and neither of the sources I looked at mentions worried about Spain, but rather Rhodes and Egypt.Elinruby (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vatin states it was October 1519 when it went under Ottoman control. They is no closure on the journey, which needs to be there. p.155. Add the date in. scope_creepTalk 15:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the Merouche I have is volume I. I'll get volume II, but Hugo is still problematic. scope_creepTalk 15:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It states that Algiers the spearhead when Panzac states it was Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli were the spearhead. It is minor.
That section is fine, apart from that long sentence which needs referenced better and Hugo seemingly wrong, unless its the wrong edition/year and no mention when became a Ottomon estate. scope_creepTalk 15:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is checked and completed. Yscope_creepTalk 10:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.5.1 Reconquest of Algiers
You need a (source vary) in here as one ref shows five year and another 7 tell the reader the sources don't agree. scope_creepTalk 16:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 51 needs updated with a volume number. scope_creepTalk 16:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 52 Holt. Is Khayr al-Din Heyridden? seems to be as both books mention "beylerbey". scope_creepTalk 16:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question of different names for Barabarossa is going to confuse the reviewer and the reader. A single name, the most common name should be chosen to make the text clear. It might be worth putting a note in explaining to the reader. In Holt he is called "Khayr al Din". That is three names. There is an article Khair ad-Din which means "the goodness of the faith". Barbarossa is mention. Maybe worth linking putting note in right enough. scope_creepTalk 16:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
not convinced we should link to a disambiguation page. I agree that it's an issue however; N and I had a long confusing conversation on the talk page about this before we got that straight. I gather it is something completely obvious like Tricky Dick for Americans or who the Virgin Queen or the Iron Lady were. I am trying to built a Rosetta Stone further down the page. Probably the answer is either a note or a parenthesis. But I keep finding more like this. Elinruby (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This "Taking advantage of the corsairs' reputation as "holy warriors" and social divisions between urban and rural populations, he bolstered his ranks with Andalusi refugees and local tribesmen" is not mentioned in Ref 52. scope_creepTalk 16:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"but at Iflissen had to face a detachment sent by Belkadi" is not in Ref 53 scope_creepTalk 17:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 59 doesn't say he attached the island, just that the port was modernised. Close-in, close to shore islands were often connected to mainland when they're tidal river was filled in. It was common practice (from working on another article) as it gave them positions to place guns far out in the harbour It would be worth trying to find a reference for it, as he and the ottomans seems to have ushered in a golden age of trade. scope_creepTalk 21:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is much better. Description of the causeway, single name for Heyridden and Hess mentions the holy warriors and Cambridge history of islam mentions the refugees and there would be local tribesman. That is an excellent analysis again. That's it done. Y
1.1.5.2 Morisco rescue missions (Making a start on 1.1.5 scope_creepTalk 14:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
This question of rescuing 70000 refugees is dubious. It seems to calculated number, post calculated which is not WP practice on Ref 61. Post calculation is never used. You need a more accurate reference, its too woolly and inaccurate. It mentions shuttling seven times so could be used to ref the closing of the sentenced which isn't reffed. scope_creepTalk 09:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Settling in the city at Tagarin isn't reffed. scope_creepTalk 09:59, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 61 does mention building houses. Ref 61 is covering the above sentence. Thats fine. So the question of 70k refugees. scope_creepTalk 10:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not too bothered about the 70k figure. The Tagarin term is covered. That's it done. Y
1.1.6 Hayreddin's successors (1534–1580) (Making a start on 1.1.6 scope_creepTalk 10:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
"The capture of the Peñon had a huge impact". Introduces impact but doesn't explain what it is. scope_creepTalk 15:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"And thus" has no logical follow through. There is no reason for it to there. That para needs rewritten to explain the impact and why holy war followed. The ref is good. scope_creepTalk 15:29, 21 March 2024
No paraphrasing the previous chapter. I think its a red herring. scope_creepTalk 16:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's it done. Y
1.1.6.1 Algerian expansion
Ref 66 is wide. It looks like p.151. Can you check it. scope_creepTalk 15:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"It ended in total disaster". Doesn't explain why was a disaster. Crowley covers it. It needs some details why. scope_creepTalk 15:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ref 69: p.27 Spencer doesn't verify. It seems to p.24-26. scope_creepTalk 15:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"another massive". I would replace that as doesn't mean anything. I would put the numbers in 300 ships, 30000 men. (That is massive, but it meaningless in the modern context. It could mean anything. ) scope_creepTalk 16:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Abun-nasr pp=154-155 puts the number even bigger at 500 ships and more marines. I'd put another ref in there and put as (sources vary) on it. The sources vary is standard WP way per consensus of show variance in sources. Hope that helps. scope_creepTalk 16:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 71 doesn't talk about Martín Alonso Fernández. He did lead it and its accurate. Needs a newer ref.
There was three expeditions. Only two are mentioned. scope_creepTalk 16:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 72 doesn't have the volume number. scope_creepTalk 16:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence beginning "In 1552, Salah Rais" I can't verify it. However, from the Tuggurt Expedition (1552) is seems to be true, but Ref 74 doesn't mention it and I can't access Gaid 1978. I would perhaps reformat the sentence to link to the Tuggurt article and find better ref, unless there is some confusion in the naming. Salah Rais seems to be quite clear. scope_creepTalk 17:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is well-written and no paraphrasing. The whole thing is a red herring. scope_creepTalk 18:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Julian 1970 p.294-295 has good deatails on Salah Rais. It might be able to verify "In 1552, Salah Rais" scope_creepTalk 08:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Had a look at this. The sources is in as the numbers are indeterminate. I haven't identified ref 72 but I will check from date this comment. I'll do it now. The section is clearer now and easier to read with additional references and has some detail on Salah Rais which wasn't there before. Checked this. Ref 72 doesn' have a volume. The section is more than twice the size now. That is done and checked Yscope_creepTalk 12:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.1.6.2 War against the Spanish-Moroccan Alliance
Algerian-Sharifian conflicts shaped the western border of Algeria. Odd sentence. Mentions geopolitical changes in the source. Could it be rewritten. Ref 90 good. scope_creepTalk 08:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 92 volume is missing from ref and editors were Fage and Oliver. It needs a chapter as well. I don't mind doing it. scope_creepTalk 08:24, 22 March 2024 (UTC) Y[reply]
Ref 91 doesn't provide the detail in that sentence. It is very ropey. Better ref needed. scope_creepTalk 16:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 92 needs publisher, location and so. I'll do this. scope_creepTalk 16:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Mulay Ahmad III was forced to take refuge in the Spanish presidio of La Goleta" isn't mentioned in Truxillo. Needs a ref. scope_creepTalk 16:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 97 I thought would verify Caïd Ramdan. He was defo pasha of Algiers but not byerbli. I got the Hugh Robert book, same edition, doesn't mention it on p.175. scope_creepTalk 17:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the sentence that begins "In 1578 an army corps of the" Ref 91 doesn't validate it. It does mention him writing on the sand and being copied letter for letter but the language isn't clear. What army corps is it? They is no make up of it, what it was composed it. There has to be a better ref than this Arabic one. The language is so wooly to be incomprehensible. scope_creepTalk 17:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might be worth mentioning Eulj Ali, who was the grand admiral of the ottoman fleet in the sentence "his was followed by a cancelled". He was sent to attack then but cancelled. Julian p.301. I can't find an article but its odd the name is not there. scope_creepTalk 17:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cory states p.9 "Rajab 989/August 1581 As a result of al-Hawzālī’s meeting with Sultan Murād III, invasion of Morocco by Kapudan Pasha `Ulūj `Alῑ is cancelled. Ottoman treaty signed with Morocco protects Moroccan autonomy". So that could be rewritten to explain it better. scope_creepTalk 17:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thay is well researched and no paraphrasing. It needs some work but can be expedited. scope_creepTalk 18:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That section is done. I've checked the referenced and the rewording at the end para is much better and clearer with a bigger section, more explanation. This is done.Yscope_creepTalk 13:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.2 Golden Age
1.2 17th century: Golden Age of Algiers (Making a start scope_creepTalk 18:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
"Once they adopted the use of round-bottomed vessels" Doesn't explain why they grew powerful. Braudel has the description there. Just needs one or two sentences to explain why. scope_creepTalk 19:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first para of Jameison p.75 explains it exactly. Use that if possible and the ref is already there. scope_creepTalk 19:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was complete new ships and ways of sailing for the lot. So major change need more I think. scope_creepTalk 19:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"pirate economy of forced exchange and paid protection for the safety of crews, cargo and ships at sea". Needs reworded. Copied verbatim. scope_creepTalk 19:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: I've updated that section to mention square-rigged sailing ships which was the core innovation that changed the whole approach to coarsairing in the early 1600's, enabling them to breach the Atlantic. Can you check its ok, wording and so on. scope_creepTalk 17:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That section is checked an done. Y[[User:scope_creep|scope_creep hatTalk 17:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You'll need a ref for "In 1536, France signed". Its not mentioned in MacDougall. scope_creepTalk 15:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
" In clear defiance of the". You'll need a date for the attack on the Bastion. scope_creepTalk 15:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 122 doesn't verify the fact that 6000 sequins were captured. scope_creepTalk 16:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That section beginning "The authority of the pashas that but according to Meyerson it is the 1570's. I couldn't verify Ref 120 and 121. They were definently freed from ottoman control but what group it was insn't mentioned in Meyerson. I can't see Kaddache. scope_creepTalk 16:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant to say was there was no dates in that section. It looks like the 1570's from Meyerson. scope_creepTalk 16:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The Seizing 6,000 sequins is verified Garrot p.444 but the sentence itself hasn't got a conclusion. "Seizing 6000 to compensate". Right they siezed 6000 then what. That needs fixed. scope_creepTalk 16:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The last para has only date and doesn't mention when the new pasha comes in. There is a lack of dates in whole section. scope_creepTalk 18:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its seems to be accurate with no paraphrasing. scope_creepTalk 18:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That has been updated with references and more dates with gives it depth. Garrot is used for 6k sequins which is accurate. Thats it done and checked.Yscope_creepTalk 17:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
starts with Ali Bitchin
1.2.1.1 Ali Bitchin Raïs
1.2.2 Foreign policy
1.2.2.1 Kingdom of France'
Unexplained Reference to Coral fishermen FIXeD
1.2.2.2 Kingdom of England
ref 138 (Matar); supports the attacks at the bottom of p.150. The outcome however, presumably on 151, is not part of the preview
127 verified, no paraphrase
139 timing out
140,141, 142, 143, 144 ok
(What happened to 145) Elinruby (talk) 12:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kingdom of England
ref 138 (Matar); supports the attacks at the bottom of p.150. The outcome however, presumably on 151, is not part of the preview
127 verified, no paraphrase
139 timing out
140,141, 142, 143, 144 ok
Elinruby (talk) 12:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
(What happened to 145)[reply]
@Elinruby and @Scope creep Thanks for all this work, i realise how difficult and complex this article is through your suggestions. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dutch Republic
146, 148 snippet, cannot confirm
147 - copyvio from this source now addressed
151 (Wolf): ok both times
157, 155 ok no paraphrase
158 Jamieson not in preview
160 same as 147, with or without page numbers is the question. Document is open-access OAP, great source with no page numbers. Check against this for further copy vio, although that section has had a detailed rewrite since I spotted this. Could do with another look though. Elinruby (talk) 03:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.3 Maghrebi wars (1678–1756)
*1.3.1 Tunisian campaigns
Some sentences unreferenced
Kaddache
spahi was linked to sipahi. I think it should be sipahi and changed it, because the spahi were in the French Army. Noting here in case I am wrong Elinruby (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(all good)ref 186 Panzac 300 verifies the olive oil, not the tribute though
But that's ok, since Ref 185 on the same sentence verifies the tribute but not the oil. Source is snippets only, but this comes up for a search on "Tunis" Elinruby (talk) 02:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Refs 182, 183: My snippet search was unsuccessful for 183, but 182 fully verified the sentence. Paraphrase was not very close but I did a slight rewrite to be on the safe side. None of the above were even slightly close Elinruby (talk) 03:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: I like your changes to the Tunisian campaigns section very much. A couple of quibbles, and they are that, very minor:
If the horizontal image is #1 in the template and a vertical image follows, on mobile devices it is on top of the vertical image in a T shape that seems wrong, especially if the vertical image is a person; then it looks like they have a naval battle over their head. That's not the case here, but that is why I have commented about this a couple times.
I had to re-read this sentence a couple of times: "Dey Chabane took this opportunity to defeat Tunis in the Battle of Kef, conquer it and depose Mohamed Bey El Mouradi in 1694..." I see now that he won the battle and took over the country, then defeated Mohamed. But on a first fast read "defeat" and "conquer" seem like synonyms, although I see now that they are not, in this sentence. I think avoiding the use of the pronoun "it" might help. I did a minor copyedit but I think given your grasp of the facts you are better equipped to reword that than me. A small problem, maybe 1.5 out of 10, but one that it would be nice to fix.
break to praise our SME
PS: I thought you handled the stuff about Mohammed exactly right and the other editor was being rather unreasonable. "Prophet" wasn't even capitalized and the article is chock-full of people named Mohammed. Saying "the prophet Mohammed" the way it was is a description not a title, distinguishing him from all of the other Mohammeds that we refer to. Feel free to ask for help if he shows up again. The way you have this right now is verbatim from policy. I just think the way it was before was okay also, but I suppose they were making the point that not everyone believes he was a prophet, eyeroll. Elinruby (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
===another break for mutual admiration==+
@Nourerrahmane: Your a cracking editor to work with. scope_creepTalk 17:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC) that's a compliment if you were wondering Elinruby (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
continuing the theme: I see a vast amount of patience going into this article. hurray for you both Elinruby (talk) 22:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both of you ! i didn't need to google translate :) Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll start working on the refs in the sections you covered shortly. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morocco
1.3.2 Moroccan campaigns
1.4 Dey Muhammad ben Othman Pasha (1766–1792)
1.4.1 Pacification of the Regency
1.4.2 War with Denmark working... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs) 22:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.4.3 War with Spain
War with Spain: the top picture in the gallery is of Danish ships. Should that be under War with Denmark? Elinruby (talk) 15:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added those pictures for the entire section, maybe a third picture would make it clearer ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe! I am going backwards in time so I might be missing something. But Scope creep seems to say that we don't need to worry about too many pictures, and he follows policies quite closely. I personally think they are good. I think my answer is that if it isn't hard go ahead and add it. We can always take it back out. And if was about French ships (that's the section above Denmark I think?), then yeah that might be clearer. If it's not that easy right now, then wait and see what Scope has to say, is my thought. I was just noting my confusion.Elinruby (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Finally done) War with Spain still: What's this stuff about a presidency? Presidio maybe? This might be machine translation edited by bots. Also, seemed like Oran got Algiers back in a treaty then there were anti-pirate expeditions, then negotiations, then suddenly Oran is Spanish. Re-read and double check what happened there.Elinruby (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Decline of Algiers (1800–1830)
1.5.1 Algerian Jewish merchants working... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs) 22:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.5.2 Crisis of the 19th century working... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs) 22:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First para is good. Altered slightly to join it up, as its all one event.
Sentence beginning "In 1792 in Constantine popular administrator of the eastern Beylik Saleh Bey was killed" seems to hang. The 1814 block is seperate and the sentence beginning in 1792 should be seperate para. But it looks muddled as your in 1814 then its 1792. If Beylik Saleh Bey is related to the discussion on the wars, which is discussed in the next paragraph (should it not be in that para>) then I would put in something, "In a series of events that began in 1972 with the death of Beylik Saleh Bey... It looks muddled at the moment.
I reworked it with few hopefully useful additions. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I beleive i have covered all of your suggestions, so i'll be waiting for another review. Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.5.3 YBarbary WarsElinruby (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(fixed)but see Greenwich Museums subsection under Scope Creep validation Elinruby (talk) 09:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1.5.4 YFrench invasionElinruby (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2 Political status - now highly rewritten. Davidann reference was copied; one sentence only, but word for word. Julien supports the quote but had a (trivial) difference in wording, Modified article to match. For the other two references the cited page is not within the preview. Heavy rewording in this section, however, confident no close paraphrase remains Elinruby (talk) 09:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For 254 it is there but only for mayor, whereas the article text says qadis, muftis and mayors. The source mentions mayors the goes on to talk about guild leaders and some other non-religious officials. I have just realized that I am uncertain how to add a quote in this type of citation but down towards the bottom of p.54 the source says: Algiers had its own mayor and city council (hakam), positions which were held by non-Turks as a holdover from the original pact woth Baba Aruj..." I changed it to just say mayor but that feels lonely so I am going to add and city council also per the source. If Nourerrahmane wants muftis and qadis he can add them when he has a sourceElinruby (talk) 05:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2.2 Ottoman Viceroyalty of Algiers (1519–1659)
2.2.1 Corsair kings: Beylerbeylik period (1519–1587)
Ref 258 seems to have the wrong page number. It is volume 6 which starts from page 579. scope_creepTalk 12:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This will need a ref "Even though they acknowledged the suzerainty of the sultan, the beylerbeys were autonomous, however"
This will need a ref "The "timar" system was not applied in Algiers". scope_creepTalk 13:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2.2.2 Triennial mandate: Pashalik period (1587–1659)
Need a date for this: "Aversion to the Sublime Porte increased in..." Or a period, e.g Around the mid-16th century... or so. Its introduced out the blue with no context. scope_creepTalk 15:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2.3 Sovereign Military Republic of Algiers (1659–1830)
2.3.1 Janissary revolution: Agha regime in 1659
No context on "Ibrahim Pasha pocketed", just begin without an intro. Needs a date and some kind of intro scope_creepTalk 16:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tried pretty hard. I just double-checked fr.wikipedia and it is a redlink there too. Elinruby (talk) 14:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC) However Odjak of Algiers (mostly N) says he was Khalil Bouloukbashi.[reply]
Never mind! N reminded me further down the page that Bouloukbashi is a title, and informed me that he held it before he was Agha.Elinruby (talk) 14:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 285 doesn't validate that sentence, although the sentence is accurate. I looked at the 2000 edition of the book and 2012 and its not in it. scope_creepTalk 09:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is going to need a date, "The raïs had risen up and killed Dey Mohamed Ben Hassan" scope_creepTalk 10:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed that Mohammed Trik states he's algerian but the article states he's an old Dutch disgraced raïs. scope_creepTalk 10:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also noticed that Dey (maternal uncle) and Doulateli (head of state) and Hakem are not linked. There is a wiki dictionary for [18] and a fr article for [19]. I wonder if we can link the wikt defition for Hakem using the wikt template. Looking Doulateli. scope_creepTalk 10:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also noticed diwan has an definition at wikt: [20]. Its mentioned near the top of the article before its discussed in the dîwân council section much futher down so needs linked early. The wikt definition is ideal. scope_creepTalk 11:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[21] is more confusing than not. [22] and come to think of it didn't I see that you link to it? Will double check 20:57, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Deylik period (1671–1830)
looks like this got omitted somehow from the checklist. There is a really really really close paraphrase of the Abun-Nasr reference at the top of the section. Noting because I will need a moment to figure out how to fix it. The first sentence is referenced to Wolf. The second is cited ti Abun-Nasr p.160 but the link goes to 157; probably because it says 160 is not part of the preview, but if you scroll up and down you can see it. The paraphrase is way too close. I think I can rework the second part but slightly stuck on the first. Elinruby (talk) 14:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is done, both parts, but both of you should check it. I am going to be sleepless over the fact that we are still finding this stuff. I think I will google some randome chunks of text for funsies. On the other hand, to be clear, this is text that was being worked on for the first time. 21:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Administration
3 Administration
3.1 Algerian stratocratic government
Malcolm (currently 310) does according to snippets contain the words ""despotic, military-aristocratic republic" but I can't verify that he was talking about Algiers and honestly I think if what we want is an example of somebody calling the Dey of Algiers a despot, I don't think we should use Montesquieu, because he was apparently wish-washy on whether or it was an aristocracy or a republic. And he thought all monarchs were despots. This was really Laugier de Tassy's idea according to the source, and he is impenetrable. Elinruby (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Shaler(note f) is verified) Elinruby (talk) 11:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)tclear[reply]
311 first use - does say that Jean-Baptiste de Boyer, Marquis d'Argens said this. Why not quote him directly though? Also it isn't clear whether he thinks this is a good thing. 311 second use is misleading. Gibbons says that all military governments do this.
Coller (currently 312) first use anbout Rousseau is verified User:Elinruby Elinruby (talk) 11:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well the source mentions "Barbary States" and Algiers is the closest of them to a republic, regarding the "despotic Dey" i will add few small quotes by Saidouni and Julien to give a better idea of what the Dey was in that regard. he's already mentioned as a constitutionnal aurocrat. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hang on, let me finish the section first or we will have edit conflicts and both get frustrated. Also I have suggestions. These people are considered important to the French revolution and all lived under autocrats remember. And yes, no quest he was an autocrat. Was there a constitution in the American sense of the word? Elinruby (talk) 12:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that looks a lot like a constitution. We should be talking about this. Did you see what I said somewhere else about Laugier de Tassy btw? Also, one of the sources I have been looking at -- pretty sure it is one of yours --- was talking about "constitutional". Let me see if I can find that and also the one about the Agha supposedly bathing in blood. that Pacte should definitely be in the article. Nour. Write that up. Let me see if I can find those links. 15:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
and I thought about making the dey section look a bit like this :
According to French historian Charles-André Julien, the dey of Algiers was head of an elective but absolute monarchy as a de-facto constitutional autocrat,[1][2][3] He was in charge of the enforcement of civil and military laws, delivering justice,[4] ensuring internal security, generating necessary revenues, organizing and providing regular pay for the troops and assuring correspondences with the tribes.[5] But his power was still limited by the corso captains and the diwan of the janissaries, since any member of either body could aspire to become dey.[3] His fortune came from his civil list that didn't exceed that of the highest paid member of the janissaries, and although he could still receive presents from consuls, beys and shares from privateer booty, his fortune reverted back to the public treasury in the event of assassination, This led some authors to call the dey a "despot without liberty",[1] a "king of slaves and slave of his subjects",[6] and a "man of wealth without being able to master his treasures".[7]Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't dare hating your edit lol Nourerrahmane (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nonono If there is something you hate you should tell me. We have to agree, we are all three good at different things. And all of us losing our minds over this article lol. This is the guy who talks about bathing in Blood, but we should think about this. Several people say that Lettres Persanes was about Algiers but I am not seeing it, and it could be me. Anyway: [24] Let me go look up who he was, and try again for that constitutional discussion in one of these sources. Oh and check out how you do references on a talk page. Elinruby (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look a thompson 116 [25]: does mention a constitution. And these aristocrats talking did not like it Elinruby (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch, and Hamdan Khodja also speaks about a constitution or a charter [26] and fundamental laws in pp 124-125 [27]Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm here... Comparing
I like it. The quotes make it livelier. A couple of words need fixing. "Correspondances" means "things that are the same" in English. Relations maybe? Let me do a quick copy edit on the things I do understand. I will make a copy of this first in case you hate my edit, lol 15:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
References
^ abJulien 1970, p. 321. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Isichei 1997, p. 273. sfn error: no target: CITEREFIsichei1997 (help)
^Julien 1970, p. 322. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Khoja 2016, p. 98. sfn error: no target: CITEREFKhoja2016 (help)
^Julien 1970, p. 324. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Wolf 1979, p. 292. sfn error: no target: CITEREFWolf1979 (help)
I think there was a better discussion but i can't find it tight now. Anything I find before I fall asleep I will post here. if you are doing rewrites here I am going to turn to seeing what other loose ends I can tie up Elinruby (talk) 16:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
4.5 Manufacturing and craftsmanship working... Elinruby (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Making a start on checking this and forward. scope_creepTalk 14:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Djidjel needs linked. Can't located it. scope_creepTalk 14:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
aha is that where that was. I realized later it is probably Djidjeli. I will go look right now. Elinruby (talk) 23:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Aha there are some language variants going on here. Now spelled Jijel. And yes appparently it is surrounded by Oak forest. @Nourerrahmane: I think Djidjeli is the old name so I am going to link it to Jijel, tell me if I am right about that, and Scope, that is the thing to do, right? or actually, it's a redirect, I don't have to. Elinruby (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, just like with Bone and Bougi, common names are preferable. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can't see Kaddache and can't locate any information for Hassan-Bey 2022 from gbooks even when signed in. The gbook reference doesn't have page numbers, so for the read will fail
WP:V even assuming by AGF that the references are good. Ruedy is a only a single sentence and is ok. scope_creepTalk 15:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
That is done. I see Djidjeli is gone. That is fine. If it couldn't be linked at this time. Kudos for finding Jijel, although I see its used further up the article. Solid work. Section seems to be clearer and better written now. Yscope_creepTalk 07:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
4.6 Trade
"roads were suitable for vehicles" Sound weird. When vehicles are mentioned, it assumed to be a cars. Carts are mentioned in previous sentence. scope_creepTalk 16:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah I couldn't think of a way to reword that at the time --if one comes to mind, feel free. I think given the period we are saying that it was not a goat path Elinruby (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded it slightly to get rid of two "mainlys" in the same sentence and included the carts on road to get rid of vehicles. Also changed shipped to delivered, since assumed if coming by sea it will be by ship. Its better worth checking. Y
5.1 Urban population workingElinruby (talk) 22:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Around 10,000 Turks. Figure is not mentioned in Isichei. It is actually p. 273. changed. scope_creepTalk 16:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 351 Ruedy 1997 is about plowing and doesn't mention "99% of the population". The actual ref mention Ruedy 2005 where the link is to Ruedy 1992. Mind you they are actually both published in 1927, so this will need looked at. Can't locate it. scope_creepTalk 17:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"restaurants, hotels, and shops" Can't locate this anywhere in Ruedy, unless across several pages. scope_creepTalk 17:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not published in 1927, the version on archive.org is 1992. I need to the 2005 version. The ref still needs fixed to not point to the correct 2005 dated citation. scope_creepTalk 17:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Got the 2005 Rudy. So will check that block again. scope_creepTalk 17:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Checked the block. Ref 351 is inaccurate on Ruedy 2005. scope_creepTalk 17:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The city closed its gates at nightfall and observed Islamic holidays" doesn't have a ref. scope_creepTalk 18:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The ref for "Café Tlemçani, Café El Fouara, Café Gourari and Café Larriche." has been removed which was in there on 16th April. scope_creepTalk 06:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That section is finished. Shame about the coffeehouses, but all ref'd to hassin bey scrap. Good order.Yscope_creepTalk 20:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
5.2 Social formations workingElinruby (talk) 22:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
May be linked to Bled es-Siba. Google states from a removed wikipedia entry that its "There were tribes that refused the sultan's authority and taxes, in areas known as Bilād as-Siba" scope_creepTalk 09:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Ruedy ref on archive.org is the 1992 edition, not the 2nd edition from 2005. The ref needs updated to reflect its 2005. Its almost identical. scope_creepTalk 09:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The para beginning "Central authority" It probably needs rewritten as it took four or five reads over 2 days to understand it. Its fundamentally, centralised legistative control enabled tribal growth/cohension by controlled access to markets via middlemen. Consolidation may be the wrong work. I'm saying its wrong. It doesn't mean "the action or process of combining a number of things into a single more effective or coherent whole." which is accurate in the context, but in the modern sense its a word more known for use in discussion in a commercial environement. Thinking about it may be actually accurate for the context. But for all that, its a difficult para to read and it wouldn't meet FA. Its needs twice the space to describe it. The refs are ok on it. Vatin 1982 is really good. A solid academic analysis. The tribe article is junk unfortunately. There could be tribes of north africa, and summarise it here. Not needed for GA at the moment, though. scope_creepTalk 12:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
to the village framework. Should that not be "to the city framework". scope_creepTalk 12:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is done. Its much easier to understand, laid out better and checks fine. Yscope_creepTalk 19:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
5.3 Aristocratic castes
As far as I know all this is deal with, but it should be checked. Getting the other section also Elinruby (talk) 21:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Aristocratic castes: is "tribal dust" just saying that this is an ancient social structure? (moved from earlier three-item question) Elinruby (talk) 06:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, pre colonial maghreb was tribal to the core, but in the Ottoman period, the tribes started affiliating themselves with "the country of Algiers" or Watan al Djaza'ir.
on tribes I am, I think, grasping the point about centralization. But why is "dust" there? .Maybe I just need to look at the sentence in the source. I think it is just saying that this was an ancient social structure? Elinruby (talk) 08:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
didn't grasp it as much as I thought, thanks for discussion below Elinruby (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Tribal dust" is a term used by the cited author, it 7 tribes didn't care about central authority and cared more about their own strength. This was a response to 19th century French authors who claimed that, since Algerian soceity was mostlly tribal, we cannot speak about the existance of an "Algerian people". French authors in that period often wanted to disregard the role of the Algerian tribes in the administration and politics of Ottoman Algeria. The point was to make the Ottoman elite completely seperated from the population, and that would paint the Ottomans as conquerors and usurpers rather than an Algerian elite that although it kept its Ottoman character, it still seperated itself from the imperial core in istanbul and posed itself as an Algerian central authority that derived its legitmacy from Jihad against christian powers and garenteer of National unity in a sence, as if it was a warrior aristocracy, which is why many Ottoman Algerians married to the tribes to ensure their loyalty to the center and organise internal administration and levy of taxes. Thus, the colonial theory was proved wrong by more recent scholarly Algerian and western sources. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
"Dust" refers to what colonial authors wanted point out as "tribal anarchy", they were opposed to words like heritage or traditions as this would imply a historical background for the Algerian people, something the French opposed to the point of destroying many historical sites including the lower qasba in Algiers for example. French authorities stripped lands from Algerian tribes and imposed the civil code on what they called "The indiginous pupulations" (The didn't recognize the existance of an Algerian people), Thus cutting tribal ties and seperating members of the same tribe from each other, giving them new family names based on their looks or their job, without giving them French citizenship however. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Maybe it's sarcasm, "Tribal anarchy" would fit better for understanding i beleive, you see it's a sensitive subject regarding Algerian French relations to this day, French president Macron caused a diplomatic crisis in 2021 when he questionned if there ever was an Algerian nation or people before colonisation. This colonial issue is all rooted in this claim. And don't worry, you have done a lot of good work in this article that i couldn't hope to acheive myself, so thank you for that. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Did some additions in society section, hopefully they are clear ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
looking now. I hadn't heard about Macron. But based on what I do (did?) know, there is (was?) plenty to be sensitive about, so don't apologize. And listen, all these incremental changes I am making do, I believe, improve the article, but it's a really substantial piece of work, and very important IMHO. It portrays a living breathing culture and not just the cartoonish propaganda about US Marines in Tripoli, which is what, if anything, most Americans are going to know about the period. As you've noticed, I am also doing a fast run through some of the related articles and I am seeing a lot of work by you in those also. So. Somebody noticed what you are doing, just so you know. Elinruby (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I see. An important point then. I am not going to take it out. But why dust as opposed to heritage or traditions?
So it's sarcasm? Because correct me if I am wrong and maybe this is what I am not understanding, isn't this author Algerian not French? People may just have to click on the reference. But meantime I gather that this is important, don't worry about that, if you are. Also, I may speak French and not Arabic but I am no apologist for the French colonial government and have previously discussed with someone the parallels between the Western betrayal of Eastern Europe and what the French did in Africa and North Africa. fairly substantive change here to wording but not I think to meaning, trying to bring out the loyalty to the country I think you are talking about. I see the stuff about marabouts and I think it is good. Previously you could tell they were important but not so much how. I did just go through the articles about marabouts that are linked in the lede. This is a good example of material that will be very new to most English speakers though, so there may be questions. In fact -- you say oasis. I think there is more than one, though, right? Changing to oases plural unless you stop me. Going through Society section again from the top. I think infantilization is a feature of most colonialism and not limited to Algeria. But it's Algeria we are talking about, and I think I understand better. Merouche does not have a preview on Google Books though. If you are taking long-term suggestions, I have seem people add pages to the Internet Archive. I would have trouble doing that from here, but if you are in a city or have access to a scanner, it's a thought. Elinruby (talk) 16:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, i will check for sure, Merouche' study is valuable. As always yhe changes you made are most welcome and allow for better readability, yes marabouts are important, they were a sort of internal legitimacy for the Ottoman elite, in exchange they had a cut in the corsair spoils and many previledges. And yes there is more than one oasis since the awlad sidi cheik ruled over large chunk of the Sahara. As for the Siba tribes, yes are rebellious or at least unsubordinate to central authority. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
You have a MOS:SANDWITCH problem here. scope_creepTalk 12:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the bullet points. I would put a reference in for the definition of the each aristo class, e.g. djouads. The reason for this, becuase the ref on bullet for the descriptive text not the definition. On Yacono 1993, "djouads" is described in page 5.
Yacono 1993 has a Gallica archive page. scope_creepTalk 13:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in the djouads [fr] warrior aristocrats bullet point, I added "for example the !!Mokrani]] of Beni Abbas" @Nourerrahmane: can you please reality check that and if possible source it. I am getting this from French wikipedia, and as we agreed elsewhere, the French have some strange ideas about Algeria.
Just above that I changed "douads families" to "douad families". I am assuming that at some point this was a translation of "familles douad(e?)s". If so, adjectives of plural nouns do not take an s in English so I changed it to "douad families", but now I need to know if this is a name or a description. Is there something like a Douad Tribal Council or is this a loanword from Arabic that just means "people" or "nomads" or "fierce warriors", for example? Isn't cross-cultural communication fun?
Sharif and chérifien [fr] have mostly been used so far in this article with respect to a ruling dynasty of Morocco, I believe. Is this really a tribal confederacy that the dynasty belonged to? My main concern here is briefly explaining to alert readers who wonder about this how the ones we are talking about are Algerian not Moroccan, and again, sourcing this if at all possible.
marabouts is neither sourced nor explained on this list and I am currently afraid to attempt this, lol
is the word "caste" used correctly in the header? I don't have a problem with it if you are certain that this is either the word an anthropologist would use or better yet the way they themselves would describe this affiliation. I only question it because in English it is most frequently seen afaik with respect to India. That doesn't make using it another way wrong as long as it is based in sources. Whee. LMk,no special rush. Elinruby (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Hey Elin I’m going to the mountain today with family, dunno if there is internet connection there, so I might or might not be available Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
np going to need a break myself real soon. I dreamed about this article last night. Have fun. Pings still mean I think it needs you but we just won't necessarily expect immediate answers Elinruby (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Got some internet here, so i reworked that section a bit, hopefully it's better explained this way, for title i would replace it with "Aristocracy" or "Tribal Aristocracy" only. Djouads means strongmen. So Djouad tribes means stong families or warrior familiy led tribes. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Ok so it is not a name, it is an adjective, and castes should go, got it. I will take care of that.
(actually tessalation but not really tiles, I think in retrospect, but we both liked this image, and it is used in the article. I just realized that the photos I added to urban populations are of the same door from different angles, so I am going to remove the one that is jist tbe door. I am thinking of adding this image to architecture. The Ketchaoua Mosque dome inside down view.jpg as it helps.explaim the tile thing, which does seem important but i am struggling to express. Do what you can with the pings. I am about to resume a copy edit. Elinruby (talk) 11:07, 16 March 2024
I like this picture a lot, and it was a good idea to show the dome from the inside, because even though Ketchawa mosque is an iconic building of the regency period, it did't look like its current status. Nicely done. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
ha I think part was accidental, but I agree, it's not just Algiers but Ottoman Algiers.(UTC)
Although isn't this mosque in the Turkish tradition and therefore the minaret is round not octagonal? (UTC)In any event I said tiled, but I meant that other word I just leaned about the honeycomb vaulting (in the notes section I think) but that isn't that either, is it. Anyway, it's got a lot of visual appeal and it's Ottoman architecture in Algiers, so I was pretty sure it was ok to add.(UTC)
(UTC)Nice work on Tribal aristocracy. I did a copy edit. There were some assumptions, so double check me please.(UTC) I haven't checked the references yet (UTC)but am otherwise really happy with that section, assuming it passed your review of course ;) Elinruby (talk) 13:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! i did check it and everything essential is there and well written. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)(UTC)
The last para in culture should really be in education.
Abi-Mershed 2010 has really good descriptive text on schools and could be used to ref the first sentence of second para beginning "Secondary and tertiary education". scope_creepTalk 13:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need a ref for that second part of 2nd para. If it is famous you need a name. scope_creepTalk 13:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is all bog standard and is well written. scope_creepTalk 13:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It states "A radical change occurred in artistic taste" when did this occur? scope_creepTalk 15:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"decorated interior walls and floors, forming bands, patterns and frames around doors, windows, and entrances. They were also used on door jambs, window frames and balusters" Needs ref'd. p.19 Laʻraj 1990 only covers the 3 types of tiles. Possibly expand the page range. scope_creepTalk 16:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will start working on this tommorrow. I should have the refs done by then. scope_creepTalk 16:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I have substantial work done in the Culture section but I blew all my referencing fuses on the Crafts section, which did have some straight translation, probably too much, and some unusual words that might be hits with the right software. Not ready to sign off on all the references.
Right now just doing copy-edit and can I understand it. In War with Spain and moving up. What are you doing with references, just making sure they work, or verifying them or checking for paraphrasjng too? My main request in terms of not duplicating work is that the Crafts section be left to me, since it's actually quite difficult to find sources for 18th century Algerian lace and door knockers, and I have some possibilities open. Unless Nourerrahmane has something in Arabic? I have about an hour, maybe two and right now am just doing a slightly aggressive copy-edit that is, I think, improving things and may or may not be taking out any paraphrasing that may or may not exist along the way. Elinruby (talk) 17:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Making sure they are valid, but not verifying them yet. We will do the section above when we check for paraphrasing. If they are not properly formatted it is a GA fail. scope_creepTalk 17:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Checklist looks great; I collapsed it and added subsection headers, to make it easier to just edit what you want. Btw, to avoid duplicate effort, if you're about to start work on some section(s), I would mark it working... ~~~~ or claimed...~~~~ or some such, to avoid duplication; then switch it to Y or done or whatever when you're done. I claimed agriculture. Mathglot (talk) 10:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
good idea. I will mark some claimed in a minute here.Elinruby (talk) 22:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clarifying: just the
zwsp}}, and it will be fine. Mathglot (talk) 09:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
1.1.5
it was 1525 and not 1527
I adressed the issues listed, i think Hayreddin should be replaced with Khayr ad-Din in this article because the article for that figure says Hayreddin while the sources i have mention Khayr ad-Din, what do you seggest ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or i would add also known as "Khayr ad-Din" Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The 1527 date is taken from the Heyreddin article referenced to Roberts. scope_creepTalk 17:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have access to Roberts source anymore infortunately, and Julien, Kaddache, Hess, and Cambridge history of islam all indicate 1525 date. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: In that case it might be worth putting a note stating that Robert stated it 1527 and using the ref from the Hayreddin aerticle. Also it might be worth checking there is redirects in for the names to the Hayreddin article. scope_creepTalk 21:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Robert stated 1525, i now have access to the book and i cited it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 21:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Coolio. Did you put a (sources vary) next to it? scope_creepTalk 21:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, because i donno about any source that says Algiers was retaken by Barbarossa in 1527. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More was added concerning the port of Algiers Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i saw the stuff about the breakwater, looks good Elinruby (talk) 05:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y 1525 vs 1527 redux
on 1525 vs 1527, this was a good thing to straighten out. Do I understand that it's now 1525 and that's what sources say? Hurray. Can I collapse this thread? Elinruby (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morocco kept seizing Oran, and that changed the western border of Algeria. ;Sharifian used like this generally means Sharifian dynasty, but there were various sultans, warlords, emirs that are within the realm of possibility. "Fighting frequently changed the border with Morocco" with some indication of the timeframe, is my current best effort. That's why I was asking about Oran though: I am not sure when that place was built. Elinruby (talk) 08:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oran was built in the 10th century, by berber or Andalusians, it later became an important port during the 14th 15th century, in the Ottoman period it was occupied by the spanish until 1791, when it was captured by the Ottoman Algerians. Morocco (Sharifian dynasty) never seized Oran. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok.The border fighting with Morocco did not include Oran. Oran was part of the Regency after 1791. Before that it was occupied by the Spanish. Have I got that right? This is relevant with respect to images of the palace in Oran and whether they are representative of Ottoman architecture. I think I mean to type "palace" btw but I am pretty sure it was built before 1791.
same question for Tlemcen. I realize it is very old. Was it part of the Regency at some point? Also Bejaïa/Bougie. Within the scope? Elinruby (talk) 22:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you're right
Tlemcen was part of the Regency since 1556, it was in the middle of the Algerian Moroccan conflicts, as the Saadi dynasty kept attacking it. Bejaia became part of the Regency after it was taken from the Spanish in 1556 also. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bejaïa and Tlemcen both since 1556, right. Thank you Elinruby (talk) 13:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Culture/crafts section
i am fairly certain there is no more word for word translation but I am deeply unsatisfied with what is there...going to talk to myself about it in this section. I may ping some of you with questions
Gustave Clarence Rodolphe Boulanger - La Cour du Palais de Dar Khdaouedj El Amia Alger.jpg
Palais du Bey d'Oran - plafond 2.jpg
Plafond1.jpg
Emile Claus - The mosque of Sidi Boumedienne.jpg
Am I correct on thinking we have enough images for architecture and are not going to use the ones above? I don't think they would apply anywhere else? Elinruby (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Women's clothing and jewelry
Sarma (hat) specifically Jewish or is that just the photo we have? Also this is a headdress not a hat
@Elinruby didn’t really pay attention to the serma, this is one of the most notable examples of women clothing in Ottoman Algeria. Often worn with a kaftan. Jewish women in Algeria also wore it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
for example, why the hell is the assabah image centered? Is that a mobile thing? Also an image of a woman wearing one would be sooo much better.(probably a mobile thing,copying to bug report section) Elinruby (talk) 07:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
going with Khit errouh over assabah
University of Mostagem got us this [assabah] image, maybe they have others. Also the description at Commons needs deciphering: la nouvelle mariée porte 7 Assabah dans son mariage avec chadda Tlemcem e and et rajoutent sur chaque une khit rou7 et les autres femmes portent que 3 il existe en doré et en argent et en bronze selon la couleur de la tenue Les femmes portent Assabah avec le caftan algérienne, la robe kabyle, chedda tlemcenienne, karakou algérois, et malhfachaoui.
Maybe contact that user.
Maybe use the image of the pirate wearing an earring instead. *Chadda/chedda malhfachaoui une khit rou7 karakou wot @Nourerrahmane:Elinruby (talk) 09:19, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Haha that's literally Algerian dialect in the description, it's basically stating the uses of the Assaba with other pieces of traditionnal women clothing. Will look for a better pic. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got that sort of but I am going to look them all up. What's that 7 about? Is is a typo or a special character? (A language around here has words/names with 7 in them is why I ask,and also for search purposes) -er
7 looks like the arabic letter ح which basically is HethNourerrahmane (talk 10:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks, that helps.Elinruby (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You found it ! Nice, i think the old picture of the couple in this article covers much of what was listed in Crafts section regarding male Algerian style and women clothing. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that you have to worry about a picture of a woman wearing an assabah. There are several of women wearing Khit errouhs and I don't think Khit errouh vs assabah is important at this scope, do you?
Chedda Oran.jpg
Lead image at Culture of Algeria
Is this the image you were talking about? If so I like it too. Don't worry I just got excited. Google was showing me a lot of shopping sites. Elinruby (talk) 12:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: you told me these people were probably nobility. Does this fit under Tribal aristocracy? Elinruby (talk) 13:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They could be urban nobility looking at the architecture behind. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Multiimage |total_width = 600
Cheches multicolores.jpg
Foulard 1.jpg
IMENE.jpg
Carte Postale Ancienne Algérie - Mauresque en Costume de Ville.jpg
BijouKabyle2.jpg
Vase trouvés en 1896 musée alger.jpg Vase found in 1896 in an old Israeli cemetery in Bab El Oued dating from the 15th century, whose so-called "Alhambra" vases can be seen.
Nourerrahmane the vase above is 15th century; does that mean it is out of scope? Elinruby (talk) 13:23, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
image size discussion
(Later on a different phone) I see what you mean about image size. This is probably related to that big I was talking about in another thread. Feel free to correct these at will by changing the upright parameter to just say upright and I will do so also. Note there are several answers in this post and I have moved several other posts to group them in sections, pls object if something is wrong. They may still be out of order. @Scope creep: in case he is wondering if I have lost my mind after seeing the images. The rest of this section is fyi Scope, comment if so moved but it's all vocabulary q for Nourerrahmane mostly.Elinruby (talk) 06:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
images for culture section
updates on images now in use
(This image being used in article)Café of Sidi Mohamed Schérif in Alger, 1835.jpg
(These images are being used in Crafts section)
Luce Ben Aben School of Arab Embroidery Algiers Algeria.jpg
caption1 = Luce Ben Aben School of Arab Embroidery, Algiers
Dinandier Casbah Alger.jpg
caption2 = Coppersmith, Casbah Algiers
Mharma.jpg
captions = Mharma
(Rm from template) Vanneries du Maghreb-Musée de l'Homme.jpg Baskets of the Mahgreb, Musée de l'Homme Elinruby (talk) 03:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane thinking of these for crafts section. Can you check them for whether they are relevant to the period? Elinruby (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
Coppersmith, School of arab embroidery and maharma seem relevent because of Ottoman influance, the rest is older and is more relevent to berber culture and heritage. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some comments about images:
Ali bitchine mosque would be better used in Architechture section, it takes a lot of place in the History section i beleive
War with spain section: I think a bigger image of the Spanish bombardement of Algiers without the paintings of the two Spanish commanders is better. Love war paintings :D Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed Battle of Preveza, though a very important battle, Algiers was not concerned with it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:02, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so it's the scarf on her head not the jewelry? Or are those things hanging down part of the *scarf*. I went with this image before you answered because the jacket is also traditional, although I am not certain whether it is Ottoman.
Ali Bitchin image can become smaller
not against moving the image though, except that the architecture section already has too many images and that would make three of the images of mosques. Open to suggestions here.
I can tell you like war paintings ;) hold off on this one for a second. If one of these is the Goya I might have feelings about that.
I split the image in the Dutch section because I didn't like the battle over his head. Negotiable, what do you think? Elinruby (talk) 14:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Battle of Preveza ok Elinruby (talk) 14:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y A maharma is a foulard
ok but what is a maharma? Did we use a different word here? Elinruby (talk) 03:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maharma is a traditionnal Algerian kind of Foulard- (Nourerrahmane)
Turkish influence on culture
Algerian culture isn't complete without this turkish influence, as Spencer says, the turkish influence mixed with moorish and andalusi elements is what gives clear and seperate shape for the Algerian culture. Turkish influance in Algeria is an aspect of Algerian culture just like not all North African berber or arabic culture is part of Algerian culture. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
done
Sarma for instance seems to be Ottoman but nothing in the article about Algeria. Trying to close out the windows with edit conflicts, then will look at the Legacy section for you.~``~ Elinruby (talk) 12:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you list what you want to change in the section ? also expanded the legacy section, please tell me what do you think about it and if it's neutral enough. Nourerrahmane (talk
11:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Turkish influence
Sure. But it isn't very useful to say mosques meh pretty much like Turkey. Though I'm not proposing to get into how many pillars each one had either. Needs work is all, needs work. Ann yes, we got to try to focus on the ottoman period. I think one of these dresses is late 19th century; not so much interested in that. Jew Jewish traders in the Oases is interesting for example Elinruby (talk) 11:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will and I will. Going to work on this in my sandbox for a while, keep getting edit conflicts. Basically want to get let generic and more culturally specific in the jewelry and copper ware sections especially. Elinruby (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Elin, right now i'm checking for any possible paraphrasing, and sometimes adding material for more clarification, i'll sure search for sources about jewelry in Ottoman Algeria, Hassan bey for a start ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah other sources would be good. That didn't come up in google searches. Will check that out. And if you're checking crafts, it's better than it was but it's still not good. I managed to pull together some original writing in the rug section from the same source, but you should reality check that. He does say all that on the same page but on different paragraphs. It will fly. In copper ware I just rearranged the words. And I read what you said about the Boaziz tho I can't find the comment right now that makes sense that they were anti tax not anti war, I was wondering i
when that changed.Elinruby (talk) 12:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notes, dealth with
Notes dealth with
Henri Klein, passing mention in a source somewhere, we use one of his Muqarnas#Maghreb and al-Andalus mostly about Morocco but the source may be useful.Elinruby (talk) 03:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked into it a while ago, nothing to do with culture, but rather a French perspective about the Ottoman Algerian elite sort of mindset, , trying to explain the autonomy of Algiers and how dependent it is of the Sublime porte. a POV mostly rejected by Algerian historians since Algiers was not just another Ottoman province as this author claims. but still a notable analysis. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I saw enough to be afraid of that, that's why I added the disclaimer. Maybe somebody to refute though? Your call. I am not really here, getting dressed to leave. I only read the first 1-2 paragraphs. Elinruby (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
: can you please reality check that and if possible source it. I am getting this from French wikipedia, and as we agreed elsewhere, the French have some strange ideas about Algeria.
#Just above that I changed "douads families" to "douad families". I am assuming that at some point this was a translation of "familles douad(e?)s". If so, adjectives of plural nouns do not take an s in English so I changed it to "douad families", but now I need to know if this is a name or a description. Is there something like a Douad Tribal Council or is this a loanword from Arabic that just means "people" or "nomads" or "fierce warriors", for example? Isn't cross-cultural communication fun?
#Sharif and chérifien [fr] have mostly been used so far in this article with respect to a ruling dynasty of Morocco, I believe. Is this really a tribal confederacy that the dynasty belonged to? My main concern here is briefly explaining to alert readers who wonder about this how the ones we are talking about are Algerian not Moroccan, and again, sourcing this if at all possible.
marabouts is neither sourced nor explained on this list and I am currently afraid to attempt this, lol
#is the word "caste" used correctly in the header? I don't have a problem with it if you are certain that this is either the word an anthropologist would use or better yet the way they themselves would describe this affiliation. I only question it because in English it is most frequently seen afaik with respect to India. That doesn't make using it another way wrong as long as it is based in sources.
Whee. LMk,no special rush. Elinruby (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:Hey Elin I’m going to the mountain today with family, dunno if there is internet connection there, so I might or might not be available Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
np going to need a break myself real soon. I dreamed about this article last night. Have fun. Pings still mean I think it needs you but we just won't necessarily expect immediate answers Elinruby (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Got some internet here, so i reworked that section a bit, hopefully it's better explained this way, for title i would replace it with "Aristocracy" or "Tribal Aristocracy" only. Djouads means strongmen. So Djouad tribes means stong families or warrior familiy led tribes. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok so it is not a name, it is an adjective, and castes should go, got it. I will take care of that.
(actually tessalation but not really tiles, I think in retrospect, but we both liked this image, and it is used in the article. I just realized that the photos I added to urban populations are of the same door from different angles, so I am going to remove the one that is jist tbe door. I am thinking of adding this image to architecture. The Ketchaoua Mosque dome inside down view.jpg as it helps.explaim the tile thing, which does seem important but i am struggling to express. Do what you can with the pings. I am about to resume a copy edit. Elinruby (talk) 11:07, 16 March 2024
I like this picture a lot, and it was a good idea to show the dome from the inside, because even though Ketchawa mosque is an iconic building of the regency period, it did't look like its current status. Nicely done. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
ha I think part was accidental, but I agree, it's not just Algiers but Ottoman Algiers.(UTC)
Although isn't this mosque in the Turkish tradition and therefore the minaret is round not octagonal? (UTC)In any event I said tiled, but I meant that other word I just leaned about the honeycomb vaulting (in the notes section I think) but that isn't that either, is it. Anyway, it's got a lot of visual appeal and it's Ottoman architecture in Algiers, so I was pretty sure it was ok to add.(UTC)
(UTC)Nice work on Tribal aristocracy. I did a copy edit. There were some assumptions, so double check me please.(UTC)I haven't checked the references yet (UTC)but am otherwise really happy with that section, assuming it passed your review of course ;) Elinruby (talk) 13:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
Thanks! i did check it and everything essential is there and well written. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)(UTC)[reply]
Legacy section
So when you say more neutral, my question is more neutral than what? That Wolf quote is extremely ethnocentric. Is that outdated? Because that's pretty much an apology for colonialism right there. I don't remember that being there before. More in a minute, have to double check something. speaking of which, in "three quarters from Europe" isn't there a word or two missing there? BrbElinruby (talk) 12:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's pretty much why i added it, it represents the french point of view, but his books is still an RS and was translated to arabic by famous Algerian historian Abu al qasim Sadallah [28], who neverthenless made a lot of critiques in the translated version to the point of renaming it "Algeria and Europe". Wolf went to describe Algiers as a republic of cutthrotes and theives. Sadallah thaught that this book was more of a European/ Western liberal view of Algiers, but he also stated that John Wolf himself argued that he didn't have access to Algerian and turkish sources. But his work still gives a lot of important informations about events in this period. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My point was to make two contradicting POVs in this section. much like Pirates and privateers. Heroes for some people, bad guys for others. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
13:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Well they were still using the word barbare within my memory so maybe you are right. Be careful of not looking like you are having a straw man argument though. But I my self was warning you about Islamophobes, so...
Scope creep re Wolf that you asked me about. Probably ok were you used it though.Elinruby (talk) 13:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wolf seems to be pretty decent. scope_creepTalk 21:50, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely ok for the slave rescue incident where I told you i didn't see why it wouldn't be fine. N says it's RS and a standard text in the historiography, even. I forget what the quote was exactly that set me off here, but it had more than a whiff of colonizers doing the barbarians a favor by bringing them civilization. That is nowhere near unique to either Algeria or the French; see the treatment of the Senegalese tirailleurs or the
WP:DUE to bring up decolonization.(see discussions under "holy war"). But let's get all the way through the rest of the article text before we try to weigh this. @Scope creep and Nourerrahmane
: PS
Nourerrahmane there are probably more than two points of view btw. Elinruby (talk) 02:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nod is it still representative of French historiography though is my question. But yeah I have to say pirates are.probably much of the image, and maybe we should be more careful in this article to use privateer. I still have that thread open because I was meaning to come back to that. Now "political anarchy, a fearsome enemy that captivated European imaginations" is not neutral, and better be close to the source, but is kind of long to be a paraphrase not in quotes. looking at the article again...
same thing goes for the part about kidnapping christian. The language is a little shocking. "truly national entity" needs work. Identity? The rest of the article isn't objectionable and seems reasonable at the superficial level where I am currently able to operate. Ask me again when I have had some sleep. English note however: "consider as" is all over Wikipedia. I am not sure why. It's wrong though. I consider Wolf a dinosaur. That's the idiom in English. Elinruby (talk) 13:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
key point: anything shocking should be carefully attributed.
a couple of off-,topic things: why did you take out the third image in the music section,? I liked it a lot. second thing, it'a shame that we don't seem to know who those people are in that couple photo. I have to go now, fading fast. I took the adsabsh image out for now. It did really ugly things to the mobile layout. Elinruby (talk) 13:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I moved it to the Urban population section, maybe you can gnome it ? or take it back to its former place if you see this better fit ?
Probably nobles in the late 19th century Algeria. Have a good night Elin. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I got sucked into some side drama. Oh the image? Cool. will check it out. Really gotta go right now, my eyes are crossing. Elinruby (talk) 15:16, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean by gnome
specifically; I did the upright thing. Not sure if I tried to scale down; if it looks bad on this phone I will go back to just upright by itself Elinruby (talk) 09:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[30] discusses historiography and touches on the uropean perceptions thing i was talking about Elinruby (talk) 23:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Urban populations section
i added two images. The gallery looks a little funky to me but see image display bug section; this might be me. Please optimize the format as needed. Maybe we should bring the information from the long captions down into the text, but I think there is important information there that makes the discussion less soulless.Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes. I hadn't paid attention to the template you guys are using.That definitely looks better than it did, thank you.Elinruby (talk) Elinruby (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I accidentally closed the window where I had the country report open and currently can't find it. Page 21 supports the text I added about Koughoulis (sp?). Is more there that may be worth adding. There also noted a whole section on land tenure, {[u|Mathglot}}. I agree that American University is the publisher not the author, Scope creep but do you remember the author name?Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I am on this, thanks. Elinruby (talk) 23:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The two images are now in multiimage format, do they look better ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not ready to sign off on the section Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed that American university ref. Its now Rinehart who is the chapter author for ref. scope_creepTalk 12:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both. Checking. Just had to switch phones because of low battery so I need to find my place again. Will get back to you. Need to walk around and refocus first I think. Elinruby (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, I guess I don't need to be on this then, just add the ref.Elinruby (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: I fixed this morning. I see multi imag(ing) has began on the images. I think we've made a breakthough. Finally get the images tamed into some kind of ordered, so easily added/taken away without to reformat working.I had to bail this morning due to death of brain strength, but tommorrow is a new day. Geting the caption name for multi image galleries can sometimes be difficult. scope_creepTalk 00:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had another look at the images. There is has been work to update the images and the MOS:Sandwitch problem seems to have come back. Converting them all to multiple image with the odd one of the right or the left to split the look up, is a good idea. scope_creepTalk 09:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i thought you said it was lulu.com? I thought WP:SPS was pretty open and shut? Elinruby (talk) 23:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scope creep I feel you on "death of brain strength. Been there a couple of times already. Do I still need to go through and check for multi-image template or is this done? Elinruby (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok so I went through every section from War against the Spanish-Moroccan Alliance on back to the end of History. Every section with multiple images now uses multiimage and one or two of the others that currently only have one image as well. Hopefully that helps the problem I can't see that Scope creep is talking about. Elinruby (talk) 05:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: I think its getting better, they are starting to coalesce in various bits where they weren't there before in blocks but the problem still remains. Some of it is just fine tuning, in other areas for example "Foreign Policy", the images are facing each other which is that Mos:sandwich problem but it is easily fixed. I plan to take a look at it when I get back today. The images are much brighter and more salient now. scope_creepTalk 08:46, 20 March
Tashfiniya Madrasa belongs to the Zayyanid Dynasty
(From a little earlier in the thread): I am thinking of adding the image above to the Education section but it could also be good for zellij in Architecture. The ones below are for discussion and I will structure them. I need to save and switch phones. Elinruby (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Hey Elin, i'm back, so Tashfiniya Madrasa belongs to the Zayyanid Dynasty, so not exactly Ottoman period, those below are indeed Ottoman period. Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
what section are you talking about? I just processed multi-image format, so if this is something I did, sorry. I haven't done much with images in the
article itself though, except add the streetscape one in urban populations. Yes multi-image gives better results on my phone also than the gallery tag I used and I will use multi-image from now on. If that is the issue. I am thinking of adding the image above to the Education section but it could also be good for zellij in Architecture. The ones below are for discussion and I will structure them. I need to save and switch phones. Elinruby (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, Scope creep let me know? I pulled a bunch of images from Commons, too many for this article alone, but there are additional considerations for all of them about sure, this may be traditional, but is it Ottoman period? I need to have some discussions with Nourerrahmane about that, and whether there are already enough images and/or is a new one better in particular sections. I am not certain whether he is back from the mountains. I was getting some browser crashes last night, see section below. I will pull the captions out of the file descriptions now but don't want to cause problems if I am, so I will keep them on the talk page until they are discussed. I read MoS Sandwich and understand it, but I see most of the images as stacked so I might not know I am causing something like that if I am. LMK. Elinruby (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Image are failing mos:sandwitch. The sections at "Reconquest of Algiers", "Political status", "Military chiefs elective: Deylik period (1671–1830)", "Administration", the "Tribal aristocracy" and "Culture" sections, "Architecture" section particularly. Its all closed in for some reason. 17:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC) scope_creepTalk 17:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Closed in - er? Ok, when I say that what I get as image display with the gallery tag is "funky", I mean it looks scattered. Dunno if that helps. Are you on a Windows browser right now? Or Apple? Or Android? I can do a screenshot? PS: I added a "left" parameter to the image at the top of "Tribal Aristocracy" because I am pretty sure I read somewhere (MoS?) That people in images should be looking into the page, not out of it. I am fairly confident about that and how/when to use right/left, so I didn't mention it before, but fyi I did that, as a change to an image. I don't see how doing that could cause what you are describing, though. Unless I really don't understand something, which is possible. LMK. That's all I can think to say right now. Elinruby (talk) 17:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On madrasa image ok thanks. Shame, because it's beautiful; I think I will add it to the talk page for the school. I have to compare Ali Bitchin Mosque to what is already there, but it's a lovely image also. Probably for the section that says that he built it? I have to look at what images are in that section now ...splitting off comment about zellij Elinruby (talk) 06:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a number of image for zellij that could go in the Examples section over there, but we might want one of the for the Crafts section here, and I am gearing up for a question about that:
Ali Bitchin Mosque Ali Bitchin Camisi Algeria-01.jpg|thumb|upright|Ali Bitchin Mosque| this image is currently in the Ali Bitchin Reis section
Palais du Bey DemeureMod (Oran) (24).jpg]] Was.thinking of using this one as an example of zellij in the Crafts section but R Prazeres says it's Tunisian. I guess Palais du Bey is a museum now? Elinruby (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the Ali Bitchin mosque image: Ali Bitchin has a subsubsection under Ottoman sovereignty weakens. It does not currently contain a image. Comments? If we have one a of the man himself that might be better, but...comments? Elinruby (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this week we need to put all the images in multiple image tags like this. This is an example:
Lister's university and his lecturers
Gower street entrance to the university
Wharton Jones
William Sharpey
John Lindley
Thomas Graham
Robert Grant
William Carpenter
I notice its a slighty different template from what your using Elinruby, but very similar. This is an example of the template we should use, placed below the paragraph where it needs to be set. On the comment above. I did a couple of experiments last night with my phone, my pc and laptop. When you create/place the image, when it renders on the phones, the phone screen size will determine how it renders. It will take the image and dump in a column. On pc or laptop (same mechanism) but it comes out more or less how you desi originally design it So that the GA reviewer will look at them, as see overlapping quite significantly as they will be pc or laptop. The madrasa image can probably go in. You tend to more space when there in a multi image gallery. scope_creepTalk 19:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right good call. the one from that batch that I possibly would like to use in the Craft section is the bottom one in the group above again. I will copy the template you point to above the next time I want to ask one of these multiple choice questions. How ever what is the display problem in the article itself? Is it fixed? I can go look now if it isn't. I don't think it's gallery that was the issue, because as far as I can remember, I only did that in the urban populations section, and that was already fixed when you had the problem. Elinruby (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is still overlap. In the "Architecture" section for example, the "Niels simonsen Alger 2.jpg" image should be in the gallery in the bottom, as they is overlap. It is not a display problem. What you see I think is different from what I see (I think). But once they are all in the template, apart from the odd one of the left/right it will be fine I think. I think he did a few of them with that template on the French black markert article we did, to fit them all in. It is similar problem here. To size of the images when your creating them, set the image width to between 120px and 150px. So for example, the template has it at 850px for seven images which is 120px per image, assuming there is a 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 per paragraph. If its 8 it will probably need split. The alt property needs a field filled in as well. The caption is sometimes difficult to form as the images may not be directly of the same type. scope_creepTalk 20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we can get this early next week to knock it on the head quickly. scope_creepTalk 20:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is zellij a technique, a pattern, a pattern of tiles, a type of pattern made with tiles, an art movement in the field of mosaic art, or a type of tile? Or is it about the way the tile is made? Elinruby (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
@Elinruby: . I'm suprised you managed to make any sense out of that message I sent. I can't make head or tails. I must have been sleeping when I wrote it. scope_creepTalk 08:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you actually are making a lot of sense about image placement. It's just a pretty deep dive. So as I understand it we've been having intermittent problems with this apart from variation in the handing of this on different platforms? As
I'm not sure I can follow all the comments so far, but about the question of (zellij) tiles in particular that's come up above:
What is zellij===
"Zellij" is used in passing in the this article as "with star and polygonal plates". Maybe this isn't clear enough for unfamiliar readers, but this would refer to the traditional mosaic technique, where single-coloured tile pieces are cut into polygonal shapes and then fitted together to form larger patterns. (I've replied at Talk:Zellij to clarify this as well.) In Algeria, these were replaced in popularity during the Ottoman period by painted square tiles of various origins, as the article here also correctly mentions. This is briefly mentioned at the Zellij article, but that article is about the mosaic technique in particular (which also had particular motifs associated with it). I hope that helps.
If you're looking to move some tile and/or architecture content elsewhere, I'd suggest Architecture of Algeria#Ottoman period, which has the most detailed summary of the topic at the moment. I've been thinking of adding a subsection there about tiles too (or maybe about decoration generally) in the future. R Prazeres (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i copied some files over there in the expansion section of the talk page. Wikipedia Commons has over a hundred images of tiles, but the category is hard to find. There is also a lot about the citadel, the kasbah and the palace of the bey, as well as quite a few cafes, mosques, madrasas, 19th century interiors and streetscapes and quite a few portraits.Elinruby (talk) 04:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Casbah streetscapes
Street of the camels, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697815.jpg
Arab Fountain, Rue de la Casbah (GRI).jpg Postcard of Algiers, early 20th century
Casbah d'Alger.jpg La Casbah est un quartier historique situé sur la commune éponyme de la Casbah à l'ouest du centre-ville d'Alge . La Casbah (qui signifie la « citadelle ») est l'ancienne citadelle d'Alger, peu à peu on appella la Casbah l'ensemble du quartier autour de la citadelle
Photo de la Casbah d'Alger en Algerie.jpg rues de la casbah, prise derrière le musée d'Ali
That makes chosing which picture to include in the article really hard :) Nourerrahmane (talk) 06:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Liked a lot the "Café de Sidi Mohamed chérif à Alger, 1835" picture, i replaced the modern view of the naighborhood with it since it's about the same place and adequate with the subsection which talkes about cofeehouses. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(This image used in article) Café of Sidi Mohamed Schérif in Alger,1835.jpg caption = Café de Sidi Mohamed chérif à Alger, 1835
madrasa Thaaliba is post-colonial
What do you think of adding the madrasa in Algiers image to the education section? Elinruby (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so not typical of the Ottoman period, then, is that what you are saying? See, this is why I ask a lot of questions. Elinruby (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, and you can ask me anytime I’m happy to answer or search if I can’t Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
happy to ask. I do have some clue how much I don't know. I dropped it in the Architecture section at Madrasa Thaalibia. Going to collapse this bullet point when you have had a chance to read it. Elinruby (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Renoirs are lovely but it's a French take
Renoir - the-harem-parisian-women-dresses-as-algerians-1872.jpg!PinterestLarge.jpg
Mosque at Algiers, Renoir, 1882.jpg|caption3=Mosque at Algiers, Renoir, 1882 |
the Renoir is lovely but do we know what mosque that even is? Also possibly of use if anyone possibly examines European perceptions of Algeria. (Along with the Parisian women playing dress-up) Which we don't in this article apart from some mentions of "captured the imagination" Elinruby (talk) 00:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
how about putting the "servant at the water fountain" image in the "Dey Muhammad ben Othman Pasha (1766–1792)" since it talk about water works? Elinruby (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find no harm in that, though it might be added next to the cannon, as to show that the Dey cared about both civil and military infrastructures. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane when you have time please see the questions above. I should look up when Renoir was in Algeria. I am thinking 1860s.Elinruby (talk) 09:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
just making sure, put servant girl at the fountain next to the cannon? Yes that I what I think also. Going to try it. Elinruby (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alger servante à la fontaine.jpg Servant at the water fountain |alt2=
Renoir was in Algeria in the 1880s
European depictions: Dictionnaire Décembre Alonnier-I-056.jpg Elinruby (talk) 06:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Theodore Leblanc - Algerian Interior c1835 - (MeisterDrucke-219939).jpg
(this is all about access to a source for verification. access old, verification on progress) Society section
I cleaned up after my previous heavy edit of this short intro section. It's done as far as I can tell, except for the rather serious problem of "tribal anarchy", which I realize after talking to Nourerrahmane is a reference to French historiography. It isn't explicit however, and if I, who have previously complained about the French historiography of Algeria, needed this explained to me, I think the rather jarring word "anarchy" is just going to come across as a gratuitous insult and not a reference to an existing insult. Since the main point of this short intro section is the transition from tribalism to nationalism, I recommend substituting "the tribe" for "tribal anarchy"
I do not have access to Merouche for purposes of signing off on the referencing checklist. Elinruby (talk) 10:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I checked Merouche. Its a single para in Merouche 2007 so suspect the page range being so large. Nourerrahmane can you check it. scope_creepTalk 10:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
when i used Merouche a while ago, an insight was still available in google books, but not anymore now. So i don't really have access to this source. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you find a link to it at the Internet Archive? We're linking to Google Books in that reference. if you have a better link would you mind fixing that too? And how about anarchy, can I nuke that? Elinruby (talk) 11:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those two volumes are really good Elin, i couldn't find them to my dismay. and yes, you can remove it, replace it with something like, Tribal loyalties ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found the book in another location. I can forward it if you want. I have updated it to Marouche 2007 p.139. The Marouche 2007 cite was aleady there. scope_creepTalk 12:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Really ? I would be pleased to give it few hours, Thanks! Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: I've emailed the Merouche 2007 to Elinruby. Can you email her directly to get a hold of it.. My email doesn't work on Wikipedia, so can't contact you directly. Is there any other books you need you don't have? I can see if I can get them? scope_creepTalk 15:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I emailed her, thanks. Well i would like to have the Merouche's volume I of and Godfrey's book "Barbary Legend; War, Trade, and Piracy in North Africa, 1415-1830" if you already have them. Thanks! Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
might as well also get a copy if you have one. Nourerrahmane theoretically you should have it. Elinruby (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane fealties? The word has pretty strong overtones of feudalism but maybe that is close for the western oases in the 17th century. Féodalité? Elinruby (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: Godfrey's book "Barbary Legend; War, Trade, and Piracy in North Africa, 1415-1830 is out of print. Print editions are going between 85ish-90 to 200 quid. It seems to be an early standard text and extremely well regarded, making it like gold. Can't find it anywhere. On Merouche I, I can't get it at the moment. Once its available, I'll ping you. I'll keep checking to see if its available. I'm sorry I couldn't get them. scope_crheepTalk 08:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
'Yes Elin, that looks suitable, but i'll need to ref it Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know. Doing nothing with it in the meantime Elinruby (talk) 23:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oran
Is Oran in scope
Are the two answers below good examples of anything? Elinruby (talk) 03:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Algerian Jewish merchants section
Last paragraph just says "Algerians". We're in the Algerian Jews section though. Were the French complaining about all Algerian merchants, Jewish Algerian merchants specifically, or were most/all Algerian merchants shipping to Marseilles at the time in fact Jewish. I get that at least two Jewish merchant houses in Algiers were heavily involved in shipping grain to France. I am just unsure of the proportion of total involvement. Elinruby (talk) 11:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Algerian jews specifically, and most "Algerian merchants" operating with the French were jews as Panzac and Kaddache indicate. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't fixed this yet but I have done some reading, and have no quarrel with the substance. I don't think we mention that there was a monopoly, and we probably should, as it helps to explain the extent of the anger. Adding that and a reference is probably all it needs, but I want to give it another scan for not looking anti-semitic
adventure in Google cache
The link below is a 404. Google links are not allowed but if you put "https://www.google.com/url?q=" in front of it, it works. Suggestions?
https://museum.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs6286/files/Sultans%2520Garden%2520Catalogue.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjA3af_rICFAxUQOTQIHR9dDxUQFnoECAgQAg&usg=AOvVaw1mo-cKL4_fvh2pkrmMNZHV
Going to see about breakfast. This is for the Denny reference I just added. Elinruby (talk) 13:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its the Google cache your looking at, not the real site. Cite the pdf without the url. scope_creepTalk 13:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its got its own ISBN 978-0-87405-036-3 . Use that for cite book. scope_creepTalk 13:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kalaa des Beni Hammad.2.jpg Always a separate kingdom copied the the Qalat article talk page Elinruby (talk) 23:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Algerian Tanchifa 18th C.jpg
Arab school of embroidery, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697839.jpg caption2 Algerian Tanchifa 18th C Arab school of embroidery, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697839
(othman section) Bordj Tamenfoust.JPG|Bordj Tamentfoust is moving around in the article but plan atm is to use it Elinruby (talk) 10:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding some images that could be relevant to the section. @Elinruby: I hope that you don't mind the fact that I replaced the multi-image template with a gallery (feel free to revert). M.Bitton (talk) 00:26, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
heh, there seems to be strong sentiment about using multiimage on the article but here on talk i dont guess it matters. I like the bordj one... I took out the one I had on this page somewhere because it is in Bejaïa which was on-again-off-again Regency? Back later, will look more then Elinruby (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in the set above, is the middle image of the street outside the front door? The bottom one is getting used. Here are a few more from my run through commons. The criteria were possible relevance and visual appeal. You guys tell me. I'll add working captions shortly.
Palace of the dey
Bordj moulay hassan XIXe siècle 1830 Fort l'Empereur [fr], also Arabic
Sarazin gate- bab el bahr iD06-011 Porte de la mer [fr] also Arabic, no English article
Nourerrahmane you were telling me that the corsairs used to assemble by the gate and recite poetry. Is that the gate in that Bab el bahr image? Elinruby (talk) 00:40, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
image wandered into random article section
this is new here and I am thinking it's a misclick, probably mine. Can anyone confirm this? Right now I plan to remove it. Elinruby (talk) 02:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ilename in case this was moved not copied. This was in use somewhere, maybe Golden Age Place et palais de la Jenina 1832.jpg Slave market in Djenina place, Algiers.
It's still in the Golden Age section so we are done hereElinruby (talk) 09:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fort Empereur
File:Villa Abd-el-Tif.jpg associated with writers
Image placement notes/thoughts
i approve of moving the Cardinal Cisneros image up the page to the arrival of the Spanish
Hayreddin's consolidation
image needs to move left so it's not staring off the page.
(this is done) I need to find the palace of the master of horses in history, accidentally deleted it. I intended to move it to the administration section with the Admiralty house to break up the long grey block of text there.
(fixed) cannon image and treaty image still seem disproportionately long
does the multiimage template help?
I need to do other stuff for a few hours, but also, all the stuff about zellij could be summed up as "mosaic technique not individual tiles. Do I have that right?. Elinruby (talk) 00:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok ! Now if we could get some thoughts about the last question outstanding in "Tackling tiles" we could wrap that section up. Elinruby (talk) 03:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zellij theory of everything
If zellij refers to the style of mosaic artwork, and since we are in the Architecture section specifically on walls rather than on for example inlaid wood, then I think the stuff in the Architecture section about how tiles are made slash imported maybe should go in Manufacturing instead.
Meanwhile, water infrastructure
I added the servant girl image as discussed above. I see the bordj image is there also. I am fine with that as long as we are confident that this bordj is associated with this pasha. Elinruby (talk) 04:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Image edit requests
can File:Banner of the dey of Algiers.jpg be brighter without turning washed out?
Several older images could stand an increase in contrast Elinruby (talk) 05:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brighten image in Military chiefs elective: Deylik period (1671–1830)
@Elinruby: I can send them to the Graphics lab and see what they say. I've started working on the images, before I start looking at 1.1.6. Some observations:
The cartographic maps of the place all fairly basic to non-existant I might be able find and upload proper cartographer maps. As the empire ran from 1516–1830 there should lots of public domain images, hopefully. Three or four good images showing the area every century, roughly, would be ideal, to show it changed.
Some images are in the wrong place, e.g. the coins at the top. Should they be in economy section.
I've moved some image blocks to the end of para, which is the default.
There is still no alt tags on these image and that is the first thing they will look at when image review is start. Accessibility is a big thing on Wikipedia. It won't without them.
Some of the descriptions are too big. It is a case of replace text with image and vice versa. See the
WP:MOS
on it. Having a huge caption may need a mention in the main paragraph. Try and keep the captions short, but not too short. The reader is expected to click on it, the image should open with a description. So every image should have a British or America English description with it. Hopefully.
I have written this comment really slowly and checked so it should be understandable, instead of the usual quick mess I leave. scope_creepTalk 11:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A colored version is already in the article, in the reconquest of Algiers subsection. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I typed a long answer and phone locked up. Basically, ok. Doing alts once images are final. French and Arabic captions should only be on the talk page. If not please flag them here.Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Took a whack at some captions Elinruby (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that would happen. I'm glad that first map of algiers of 1575 is on there. If you could find three images, show it growing, over the period of its existance, it would be ideal. I notice that image show the island connected by a causeway which affirms that port build para in 1.1.5 scope_creepTalk 14:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More comments:
There is a lots of single image are not particularly close to para they belong to. I would like to centre them, but to centre single image, they look kind of odd. Is it possible to find other images, so if they are centred in a block below the paragraph, we can have a block of three to flesh it out, so its not so odd?
I notice somebody mixing properties. Its convention and good practice on Wikipedia to keep to properties together. So image1, caption1, alt1 and so on. Not dumping them here and there.. It won't pass FA if that is the case.
The ali bitchin and the foreign policy image are facing each other, failing mos:sandwich. If we addedcouple of images, which I began a search for, for ali bitching para, then they maybe it can centred and leave that foreign policy image where it is to again flesh it out and give it some body.
(using in Dutch Republic section) File:Michiel de Ruyter Admiraal Generaal Portret Hendrik Bary c1673.jpg
(Moved to be with cannon) Bordj Tamentfoust: don't we already have too much stuff in architecture. I liked this with the cannon, was it taken out because it's the wrong time frame maybe? I do think we could/need to say a little more about the fortification in some appropriate part of the article, wherever that is. Elinruby (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like the Maltese knights engraving.
There are too many images at the end of the Architecture section. Too many disparate images.
I also really think the dome deserves some more prominent location than the traffic jam down there.
I just posted some additional images of a cultural monument in Algiers, from Wiki Loves Africa, if that helps. Anyway...
I am unsure whether we are overwriting each other, or? Did somebody object to the serving woman at the fountain image? Elinruby (talk) 03:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the serving woman at the fountain image, i thought that the other fountain i added was clearer, should have mentionned this in the talk page; my bad. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. Some images are being tentatively added, in other words for discussion, but I thought you said yes to that one. Not a big thing, at least now I know we aren't over-writing each other. There's a discussion to be had about that image but I will come back to this, not up for all the typing right now. Meanwhile I will put the bordj back. Elinruby (talk) 23:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that De Ruyter image, i like it, and Burj Tamenfoust should be brought back with the Cannon. if you can do it, that'll be good. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Foreign policy
"legitimate" is linked
Law of Nations
which did not exist yet. I would put all the stuff about the legitimacy of jihad in in the historiography section, or at least make explicit reference to what you are refuting. I think our approach here should be that there were a lot of pirates, and here is the story of some of them. You don't need to justify them with the Law of Nations or anything else. They just were.
Kingdom of England
ref 138 (Matar); supports the attacks at the bottom of p.150. The outcome however, presumably on 151, is not part of the preview
@Elinruby and @Scope creep Thanks for all this work, i realise how difficult and complex this article is through your suggestions. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dutch Republic
146, 148 snippet, cannot confirm
147 - copyvio from this source now addressed
151 (Wolf): ok both times
157, 155 ok no paraphrase
158 Jamieson not in preview
160 same as 147, with or without page numbers is the question. Document is open-access OAP, great source with no page numbers. Check against this for further copy vio, although that section has had a detailed rewrite since I spotted this. Could do with another look though. Elinruby (talk) 03:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kingdom of France section
there is a one-off mention of coral fishermen gaining security under a treaty. The idea of coral fishermen in a treaty is interesting but this needs to be explained. Were they getting shot? Is this a tariff for their economic security?Elinruby (talk) 23:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
coral fishermen are gone, so that takes care of that, I guess. Leaving section open as currently unsure whether all references were checked Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) it wasn't gone, I misread. However I found an explanation in the source and rewrote. Leaving this open to be checked. References seem good, but I want another look at the two for the terms of the agreement. Elinruby (talk) 00:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Music section
May as well document here what that Awareness organizations, since somebody will definitely question whether it is RS. Elinruby (talk) 07:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane this one is for you. Just write down what the organization is that published this. It's in Arabic, so it has to be you. Pretty sure someone will question whether it is a reliable source.Elinruby (talk)
Wilson ref: either we're linking to the wrong Wilson or it,'s been repaginated or something. Cited page range is about Salé, says nothing about music.
On the other hand the reference for the types of music is dead on no paraphrase. And I found:
(This file now in Music section) Levni mehter.jpg |Levni mehter
Wilson Ref replaces, Website ref removed and replaced by another arabic source that mentions at least what's been already written about the Chaabi poetry. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zooming out
I need a break from microscopic referencing inspection. I dreamed about this article again last night.
Going to try to wrap up some talk page threads. This may involve some refactoring, since all of us have been commenting in whatever thread we happen to have open. It is unusual to curate a talk page this much, and I generally never do it at all, so please feel free to object to anything I do. The idea is to put answers with their questions and close those threads if they are done.
Also for readability and scroll I will drop in some subheaders.
I have added some images directly to the article. I may add more. Please feel free to remove any that you do not like, especially if they are somehow wrong there, but let me know why, please.
@Elinruby:@Nourerrahmane: Could that big "Theodore Leblanc - Algerian Interior c1835". I know its outside period of empire, at 1877 or summat, but the gilt frames on the portrait, show the wealth of the place after 200-300 years of piracy and wars. It could be a "final how people lived at the end", "concept of living with wealth". Something like that. It is a great image, but not sure how to fit it. scope_creepTalk 23:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nice picture of a moorish house interior, I’ll work on it and your new suggestions in the checklist by tomorrow morning GMT +1. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes some people became immensely wealthy. zEven slaves. What doesn't get used here I will copy to Talk:Culture of Algeria but a better suggestion would be welcome Elinruby (talk) 00:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think some of these might be significant because of the names in involved. And I don't think it matters so much that it was produced after 1830 as that it be a fair depiction. For architecture of course when it was built is everything, but not necessarily so on music or art. Elinruby (talk) 08:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scope creep, I am going to look at some of the stuff you flagged as "can this be reworded" then cross out what I think is done, at which point you can re-check if you want. Then I guess we'll have N. do a reality check on the entire checklist once we think we are done with it? Meanwhile though he has a long list of language questions. Does that work for everyone?
Yes. I plan to check everything that Nourerrahmane has done to update the sections on the checklist that i've looked at. I've looked at some of the updates that Nourerrahmane did and they're decent. I plan to carry doing that section today and making a start on 1.2. scope_creepTalk 10:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A quick scan if you've approved it, for spelling. scope_creepTalk 20:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Culture section is getting re-written from mostly scratch.
We haven't specifically discussed mosques under architecture but apparently the shape of the minaret is distinctly Algerian and there was something about domes?
@Nourerrahmane: is the images of the mosque I added ok? It was built in the period. But I know there is something about minarets and domes, so asking you if we adequately covered mosques in the Architecture section. Actually, maybe that picture should go where it says he built it. In any event, mosque images, I am thinking two? It's a short section. Opinion? Also, I moved some images, what do you think? Elinruby (talk) 09:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FR wiki has a whole category of images of palaces in Algieria. Also further discussion of other pirates not mentioned here, though I think we have enough moving parts already.
consider small section about captivity narratives, and European perceptions. Includes Cervantes and Dragut. Of course a lot of the art we are already using is relevant to this. Note, several of the paintings have their own article. Something to keep in mind.
spahi vs sapahi -- nagging feeling I got this wrong somewhere Elinruby (talk) 04:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hayreddin's successors section. That is a very long and complex sentence. Does that one reference support all of it? This definitely needs to be referenced. Elinruby (talk) 08:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which sentence are tou referring to ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one. The short intro to the subsections? Elinruby (talk) 12:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i thaught about it, i think it's more adequate to administration into, don't you think ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mandatory royalties and gifts: still not sure what the prevention of piracy thing is trying to say. Definitely needs something.Elinruby (talk) 10:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed when this was mentioned, it states somewhere that something was "given" to Charles V. You don't give something to a King. You gift it, in a elaborate ceremony. It needs reworded. Say something like "It was presented" scope_creepTalk 10:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That could have come up in several places, but I will keep my eye out for it. We have a whole section on tribute ceremony so this makes sense.Elinruby (talk) 11:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Algerian expansion section: Slaves sold for an onion? First reference is not in preview, second is snippet and "onion" isn't bringing up anything useful. Elinruby (talk) 11:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Elin, tough ketchawa is an iconic mosque in Ottoman Algeria, the current look of it is inspired on a French tranformation and conversion to a Cathedral, so that's not how the mosque looked like in the Ottoman period. That's why an inside look of the dome and a link to the article of the mosque is enough in my opinion. The moved images are fine in my opinion except that picture of Barbarossa which actually shows Oruç and not Hayreddin. I have no opinions if we should have a little section about mosques. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The slave market of Algiers was filled with 4,000 prisoners, where it was said that Christians were sold to an onion per head.[74][71]Elinruby (talk) 11:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brought this up as it was cited in many sources. Removed it since it's useless Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the two images in the Tunisian campaigns section, as they depict the Spanish capture of Tunis in 1535 and therefore not related with Algerian Tunisian conflicts in late 17th-18th century. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
well the onion thing might be interesting. It either means that onions were expensive or slaves were cheap. Which I guess is the point. So it's really saying the price of a slave was one onion?
On images ok. That is a good reason. Elinruby (talk) 12:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It means slaves were really cheap because many of Charles soldiers were captured after the battle. it's now a proverb in Algeria when people speak about a despicable man, saying: "He's not worth the price of single onion head". Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
so that is interesting. Literally and onion? I think you should leave it in. If it just means dirt cheap I can tweak it? Elinruby (talk) 13:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah an onion lol in Algiers we say « mayeswash ras Basla » means he’s cheaper than a single onion, of course you can tweak it Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On images, got few more comments:
- Philip IV is not really talked about in the section, i don't think his image deserves to be there, I also suggest replacing the image of the French king with an image representing the Franco Algerian war
erm what's that you say? I don't care about the Philip image if someone wants to remove it. Does that help? Elinruby (talk) 01:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If he is not directly mention in the paragraph and not part of some large action, i.e. battle or something like that over a period, then remove. If he's involved in passing i.e. a small interaction, then remove. scope_creepTalk 07:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah he's only mentioned in that section in the caption for the map. The two portraits are of the two kings mentioned on the balance of power map, that was the thinking. But it's just a suggestion and either of you can remove either of those portraits if you want. The ones I added directed are of people mentioned in the section, but sometimes as with the Italian countess below a nice portrait doesn't mean she is important, and that story is actually rather involved if we were to tell it. Maybe if anybody ever dies an article about captivity narratives. Elinruby (talk) 08:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking of Women riot in Algiers, i haven't met any source that speaks about such riot, also women didn't have that early modern western outfit in Algeria. The image speaks about the French bombardement in Algiers, so nothing to do with Algerian relations with England
- The moulouya river image looks nice, but i beleive in this context readers will be more intrested to know where it is located at, an ancient map for that would be better in my opnion, especially that Algerian moroccan conflicts in this period were about borders, and the Moulouya served often as natural border between the two states.
- Gonzaga is a side character in this section, it falls in the context of Barbarossa's raids, i guess a link to it should be enough, as to avoid
kind of agree.great story but almost a bodice ripper. Did ant of that stuff about the grand vizier wanting to undermine the wife actually happen? Elinruby (talk) 01:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two unresolvable refs
There is two cites that I can't fix. I can't find them. scope_creepTalk 20:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You forgot to mention what they are Elinruby (talk) 22:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 174 and 272. I'll need to get yous that script that shows harv errors. scope_creepTalk 23:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have it. Used it in that Black Market article. I forget what the colors mean though. Elinruby (talk) 08:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby:@Nourerrahmane: Do you think the first sentence of chapter 1 page 5 in [32] could be used to fix reference 276, which is still damaged. It seems to fit. scope_creepTalk 08:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspected it. No problem. You guys are doing some serious work here. My compliments DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 13:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to fix this reference myself. It seems donkeys since it was put, months even, so this can be closed. scope_creepTalk 21:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y Image of Hayreddin Barbarossa - Fine Art Museum Algiers is a nope
I think this image might be unsuitable. I was trying to do a caption and alt tag but can't find any information on it. There is no dating info on Wiki commons either, which likely makes it unsuitable for the article. scope_creepTalk 09:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There should be others of the man. He was very well known and painted. scope_creepTalk 10:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
almost definitely, will look. Elinruby (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This actually is a little harder than it might seem. A lot of images at commons seem to be categorized by the museum where they live, only. Still keeping an eye out. I found a possible for Oruç Elinruby (talk) 08:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Usually there is author and dates and stuff with it, but not with that one. I think during GA they want some info on it, at least author/creator but it may go back yet. I did notice there was a few on google images. May be able to upload one, if PD. scope_creepTalk 09:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
well you know, depends on how hard that is to do. I think there is surely a painting out there. But you never know. Apparently we don't have an article for the Aga that seized power in Corsair kings. Elinruby (talk) 09:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just read the bit in Crawford p.181. We really need a section on slavery, unless there is an article on Muslim slavery that covers the Regency period. scope_creepTalk 19:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's material there. Thought it was notable how many leaders started out as slaves. Then Cervantes. And all the captivity narratives. Jack Sparrow. Might be a different article though. Elinruby (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should be called Slavery and Ransoms or something like, maybe slavery.
Apparently the reason it declined was the Ottoman empire couldn't keep up with western military capability. That lead to a fall in the number of ships being captured by the corsairs which lead to a fall in slaves and materials that could be ransomed. This paper [33] by a Harvard economist, explains it. The other part of the decline seemed to be lack of capability i.e speed in manufacturing ships by the end of the 17th century. More analysis needed. scope_creepTalk 07:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we have a little bit about shipbuilding in the manufacturing section. I only got halfway through that section and got a definite hit and a maybe for paraphrasing, so the section probably needs to be re-written. If that's interesting. As I recall the referencing is also light in that section Elinruby (talk) 09:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see there is big decline section, that posits that started in 18th century, but seemed to be mid-late 17 century decline started. scope_creepTalk 08:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The decline section is about the Algerian state, speaking of the corso, it declined starting from late 17th century because of Stronger European responses but also because of treaties and the regency would care more about tribute payment and campaigns inland instead per sources, still this was not the end of the corso since it became proliferent again by late 18th century, starting the barbary wars. Algiers was still at its prime in late 17th century with energetic Deys such as Mezzomorto, Haj Chabane and Baba Ali chaouch. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merouche would speak about about the century of wheat starting from late 17th century. Please check this source for more infos [34]Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: Did you look at that doc above? Also would it be useful for fixing ref 276? scope_creepTalk 11:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Last time Elin couldn't send Merouche Vol 2 because of File size. hopefully this time it will work. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2024 (UTC)u[reply]
Oh hey Nourerrahmane I sent you that days ago. I used a different email address. And yeah I can do this other one tooElinruby (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane probably knows off the top of his head. This may be a difference in sources. But this is between one section and another, you say? Elinruby (talk) 09:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well you have some articles such Barbary slave trade which was linked in lead. i don't think a section for it is necessary in this article. As dives in too much details. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i'm definitely not ready to write a section like that. And to do it right you would have to go into a lot of detail, yes. I haven't taken much of a look at Barbary pirates, guess I should.Elinruby (talk) 11:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a section there on it, in Origins which is probably enough, but if you plan to take it to
WP:FA it won't be enough. Slavery is all through the books, its core driver of the economy. scope_creepTalk 11:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
So you want a slavery subsection in economy section, where its economic aspect is showcased ? Because Barbary slavery is a big topic, so wide and covers a good part of the Algerian politics at that time. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: If its possible. Slavery and ransoming combined with tributes seemed to be the whole economy from the time of Hayreddin. I think its important because it was the primary driver of the economy at the beginning. I think later on there was more manufacturing, growing wheat and other foodstuffs that were exported so on, but according to the Chaney article there was still slaves right up through to the latter half of 17th century. The whole ideal privateering/coarsaring meant the capturing men for slaves. The economy section would be ideal for it. scope_creepTalk 18:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: But in saying that the Barbary slave trade could be the main article with a 2-3-4-5 sentences on here explaining why it was important and perhaps expand Assuming its not already there, but I don't see in the Index. There is also this History of slavery in the Muslim world with a section. There is also Slavery in Algeria which needs expanded. Perhaps a small para with one of the article as the main article. scope_creepTalk 18:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, i'll see what i can add. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: That slavery as economy section is excellent. Solid work, exactly what I was looking for. scope_creepTalk 12:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bombardment of Algiers (1682)
Bombardment of Algiers (1683)
Update
Crafts section was word for word translation and still needs work. I attempted to explain the shape of the medallion in rugs, which has been a problem. Could use a read for whether it makes sense. Also the zellij section.
What's a maharma? That thing on her head? {resolved) Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Baba Ali Chaouch - image existsElinruby (talk) 23:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now added to Education section Elinruby (talk) 00:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One unresolved reference is for 'Headache'. Probably autocorrect for Kaddache.
Thanks for forced exchange, will rewrite that now I know why Elinruby (talk) 23:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
duque de Montemar not getting used here, already in use at his own article
Found this then forgot where he came up. Nice image tho. (resolved: now in correct section but there is a question about whether to use it) Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC) [José Carrillo de Albornoz, primer duque de Montemar (Museo del Prado).jpg[reply]
added to War with Spain. Images there may need rearranging, unsure. Results are semi-satisfactory on my phone. Elinruby (talk) 04:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scope creep and Nourerrahmane: I am back for a few. Foreign Policy section is definitely done with problems found. I will update the checklist but starting here, there probably is a talk page section for each article section. Some changes with the images, lmk.
For example the music section is pretty much perfect as far as I am concerned, except the the Wilson reference cited twice is about Salé, nothing about music. Wrong edition? It's about a different Barbary topic Elinruby (talk) 04:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uluç Ali Pasha
I noticed that with the comments above. I plan to check this current section I'm on, then quick recheck then signoff. scope_creepTalk 07:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sorry to disappear. RL blew up a little and I'm having to run into town, which is all-day mega-event. Going to have to do it again, so may not be back for a day or two more. Dumping my notes here meanwhile. May be around at hotspots; it's not immediately clear to me where those are there though.
Women's clothing in Crafts section, made a start. But is it Ottoman?
Golden embroidery called majboud often adorned the many versions of the traditional vest. Named an Intangible Cultural Heritage by UNESCO, along with the Algerian kaftan and the chedda Tlemcen, majboud frequently adorned the
djebba fergani].
Nourerrahmane you said this the other day. If you can source it it would look great in the top-level intro section for Culture:Algerian culture isn't complete without this turkish influence, as Spencer says, the turkish influence mixed with moorish and andalusi elements is what gives clear and seperate shape for the Algerian culture. Turkish influance in Algeria is an aspect of Algerian culture just like not all North African berber or arabic culture is part of Algerian culture. (It's "separate" though if we do that. Elinruby (talk) 01:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
,*I managed to pull together some original writing in the rug section from the same source, but you should reality check that. He does say all that on the same page but on different paragraphs. (Not sure if somebody has done this yet)
Legacy section thoughts: Holy war timeline of crusades.
Francis Drake and Elizabethan privateers.
battles for Jerusalem requested by the Pope?
re legitimacy. N looking for something like coutume de Paris, except international?
ref 231 does say that
thought on slavery section that has now been written
I am realizing that I really have edited some captions more than once already, and getting the impression that somebody does not like wikilinks there. Can we agree on a format for captions, please, because the most important thing is to pick one and stick to it. Is there an issue with wikilinks in a photo caption? What about italics for the name of paintings or books?
The most important thing here is to agree on a style and do it consistently.
Spelling standardization
Simon Reis. N says either Reis or Re'is is correct. I picked Reis and have been trying to standardize on that spelling. Now, he called it an "honorific", which is probably close enough to title. I think/ theoretically we don't use titles in articles, but the article has a large cast of characters with many similarities between names. So I think this is a case for ignoring that rule
Similarly I deliberately overlinked anything an English speaker might feel the need to look up. This is of course subjective and discussable.
A cast of characters wouldn't hurt either.
Reis, reïs re'is etc
As I understand it:
tai'fa de raïs. Head of the people, the raïs.
Rais is the title of a raïs leader .
Is that right?
Also nobody answered about the accents circonflexes in diwan. One or two? Diwan, dîwan, diwân, diwaan, dîwân, whatever. This is transliteration from Arabic, on which I do not have an opinion.
Somebody pick the most correct or the one they like best of the correct ones. But we should spell it the same way within the article. Also Diwan appears to be a building as well? Is that the same spelling and should it be capitalized? My guess is that the building should be capitalized because there is only one of them, but the council should not, because there were others and it usually appears as the dîwân so it's a common noun. Elinruby (talk) 01:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cite webKrigen mod Algier trans-title=The war against Algiers publisher=Nationalmuseet lang=Danish
I guess I can live without the two portraits in War with Spain, but the images should be copied to the respective talk pages. Also, if the reason N. dislikes them is that the Europeans have already had a chance to tell this history, that is fair enough, but is the scope the period of history (in which case enemy military commanders probably *should* be included, or is it the policy and its international relations? Might matter when determining due weight. Elinruby (talk) 02:06, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
stale update
Scope creep you are headed into the areas I have heavily reworked. Doubt you will find any more close paraphrasing, though the stuff still needs to be checked to make sure the sources support it.
Just pointing out that some sections have their own talk page sections not the checklist.
I am currently incoherent and the sun is shining. Back in a few hours. When I do
I will try to catch up the checklist. I'll also out the laptop and start on some of the referencing issues noted.
I was planting trees today, charity work. Its hard physical work so likely be out of it until the nearer the weekend, maybe Friday. I checked the first two sections that I did was work was done so signed them off. Is the other sections being updated? scope_creepTalk 21:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are sections where there references have not been checked but a rewrite is done. I have a couple of hours at a hotspot to I should be able to list that out explicitly. Right now I am here to say I have done some image editing. I talked to commons about test edits and they said just give it a unique filename and preferably let us know which ones are definitely not being used. These were done on a phone and I suspect may be over-edited for a bigger screen. For sure, editing images this way results in large files so I or someone else should flatten any we decide to use, which is not an option on this device. Will come back and post filenames when done. Elinruby (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scope creep and @Elinruby this book has somevaluable informations about Algerian dress and arts during early modern period.[35] If anyone can access it, that would be great. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morning folks!! I can't get it unfortunately. scope_creepTalk 10:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This
Still needs doing
'Crafts section was word for word translation and still needs work. I attempted to explain the shape of the medallion in rugs, which has been a problem. Could use a read for whether it makes sense. Also the zellij section.
Useful somewhere? Uluç Ali PashaElinruby (talk) 23:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also nobody answered about the accents circonflexes in diwan. One or two? Diwan, dîwan, diwân, diwaan, dîwân, whatever. This is transliteration from Arabic, on which I do not have an opinion.
Somebody pick the most correct or the one they like best of the correct ones. But we should spell it the same way within the article. Also Diwan appears to be a building as well? Is that the same spelling and should it be capitalized? My guess is that the building should be capitalized because there is only one of them, but the council should not, because there were others and it usually appears as the dîwân so it's a common noun. Elinruby (talk) 01:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Morning @Elinruby: I don't know. I looked at it yesterday. There is an etymology section at Divan but I would try and keep it as simple as possible and go with Diwan. scope_creepTalk 11:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
spelling variations on Reis: could use confirmation I am doing.this right As I understand it:
tai'fa de raïs. Head of the people, the raïs. Rais is the title of a raïs leader.
Is that right?Elinruby (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
something is wrong with Wilson reference in Music section Elinruby (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will check this now, if its still there. The anarchists library. Can't link to that. I'll fix it. scope_creepTalk 11:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 366 is non-RS. Its written by Hakin Bey and published on Lulu.com which is a self-publishing platform. It stated the sfn ref is Peters, but Bey that open. I'll remove the whole and CN it. scope_creepTalk 11:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Took out that Wilson ref. Both linking to Czech anarchist library and linked to Hakin Bey which is
WP:SPS makes its non-rs likely. No publishing info on it, no isbn , location, edition. So its problematic and likly non-RS. I've liked the miltary band music to provide context, but now need about six references for the CN tags. scope_creepTalk 11:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Welcome back Elin, sorry for late answer:
- don't understand what's wrong with Zelij section and medallion ( if it's already discussed please show me the section)
- it's Diwan and diwân and divan per sources. Diwan means military council of government of Algiers. It refers to the building as well as the officiers and dignitaries there.
*:- Yes*:- Already fixed wilson ref. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok good on Wilson ref, thanks, will strike that. Am not going to be around the Internet much the next couple of days. Zellij and medallions: just looking for feedback on whether it is correct and understandable.
We discussed Diwan vs Diwan; you said they were both correct. Since we are supposed to standardize spellings within the same article I picked Diwan. But I am not sure where, if anywhere, there should be an accent circonflexe. And should it be capitalized for the building?
Thanks for going through the variations of Reis with me again, will standardize on that then Elinruby (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it should be capitalized for building. sources don't really make a difference here. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zellij and medallions are fine for me but you may need a second opinion, like R Prazeres who's really into this stuff. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok I see this. Would also like to know if the explanation of the mihrab shape of the medallion makes sense to Scope creep or Mathglot as English speakers who weren't up to their eyeballs in writing it. I can't tell any more. R Prazeres has already discussed this and said that if mihrab shape was hard to explain we could just say medallions. But I think it is interesting, if I was able to explain it.
I would mention its a mosiac as it that was a geometric pattern. I linked Zellij. The section looks fine. scope_creepTalk 11:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did a copy-edit on the slavery section. Mostly capitalization, some spelling. Question: the 25,000 figure is at any one time? Elinruby (talk) 01:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They had 25k slaves at the end, when the French invaded. Its correct. scope_creepTalk 11:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually pretty time consuming to upload test edits because I have to look up the copyright information for the original on comms, but here are a few more
link:
can't get this link to work, Retrying test edits is the same image Elinruby (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This image is too pixelated, I decided, since nobody answered me: More_test_edits_for_Banner_of_the_dey_of_Algiers.jpg
This image is currently in the article and I think it is an improvememt: Retrying_test_edit.jpg
I would like some feedback on whether I should upload it to Commons with a better name like Banner of the dey of Algiers brighter.jpg Elinruby (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still up in the air on these below, tho I think the bottom one is too yellow. Adding the current image at the top for easier comparison, sorry about that Elinruby (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: did you find the Merouche? I sent it from [email protected] and do not have a notification that it failed to send. I am just at this hotspot for a moment, but let me know here and if not I will set up another throwaway sometime tomorrow when I check mail, and try again.
I see the stuff about the music and slavery sections Scope creep. Hopefully mañana.
What would help me is if each of you marks off the sections/discussions that you believe are done. We're headed down the home stretch now but there is still a to-do list and it would be nice to know how long it is. If an unanswered question is holding up progress, maybe make note of it here. I have a few more image edits. Not highest priority but something I can do offline between hotspots. Elinruby (talk) 01:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yip. Is 2.1 to 2.2 done and 1.2.2.3 to 1.4.1 done? I've started checking my checklist work. 2 sections done and third looks mostly done when I looked at it this morning. I will do the rest today. I can make a start today on these sections if they are not done. scope_creepTalk 10:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No i still have nothing in my mailbox Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:27, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane and Scope creep: I have a couple of hours at a hotspot. My intention is to see if Merouche is on this phone, send it if so, then stat addressing the checklist. Elinruby (talk) 23:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nourerrahmane sent it again. I don't have a bounce notice still and the other one is showing as sent. Are you checking the tight email address?the one you gave me ends in 9 (don't want to assume it's a throwaway, and you probably have security concerns)
If not,well you have my email. Maybe I can upload it to Internet Archive, or Scope creep? Don't what his parameters are. I'll get this done though somehow Elinruby (talk) 23:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much, i have it now Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno, i still have nothing in my mailbox. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
|}
Section updates
I intend to start checking 2.1.1 to 2.3.2 which I'm assuming has not been done. I plan to check the work of latter sections 3,4,5,6 over the remains of the week. I noticed there is an image overlap again at "Tribal aristocracy". There is also a problem with that table. Can the "French slave in Algiers" image be moved up a bit or put into that block above. So that how the slaves were chained. They had to carry a chain with them all the time. The dude was a tailor as well. So will start that today. It might be worth sending that map image to the Graphics Lab to see if then brighten it a bit, or do something with it. I'll do that when I get back. scope_creepTalk 07:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
which map? Elinruby (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC) NM I see it. It was one of the edits I did the other day. I uploaded it. If you already have a request in to the Graphics Lab and they do better then yay. I am still limited to my phone for the moment. Elinruby (talk) 02:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morning @Elinruby: Not yet but will do when I come back. They might be able to brighten it a wee bit. scope_creepTalk 06:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: I would say so. Piracy was the main economic driver for the city and the region for a couple hundred years. scope_creepTalk 13:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, added High importance scale for that Wikiproject, per Barbary pirates (Top importance), French Wiki (Régence d'Alger), and context. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am still in the throes of RL but might finally be done tomorrow. May get some stuff today though I am pretty wiped out from the latest big trip into town to see a specialist yesterday. (Routine but important) If so, I will either solve problems I noted or start at the bottom of the history section and work up. And +1 on the article being of interest to the pirate projects. Apart from possibly some small scattered communities the Barbary coast would be the most prominent example of a pirate economy, no? So I agree that it's top importance. Elinruby (talk) 23:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I uploaded the one I did meanwhile. But I could do better with GIMP and I am only a journeyman user. Do you have an opinion on the test edits I uploaded? I am just glancing in the door, not really here. Waiting for something and liable to disappear at any moment. This should be over soon. If I get the chance I'll see if I can finish the documenting the Tunisian campaign section. Elinruby (talk) 21:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did some additions in the Tunisian section, hopefully they are informative, and i don't really have an opinion on the test edits, are they supposed to make an image look better ? also, i added a big map of the barbary coast, do you think it fits there ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby one of my two last edits seem to have undid your edit, could you please check this out ? sorry :) Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to start on 2.1 tommorrow, quick run through. scope_creepTalk 01:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stuff going on can't right now. Today's edit was just a copy edit, no big deal. Will look when I can. But no worries. Elinruby (talk) 01:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lithographs of Algeria in 1830s
Hi all, in case this is useful here or in other articles at some point, I found this French publication (Lessore et Wyld, 1835, Voyage pittoresque dans la régence d'Alger, pendant l'année 1833) which contains around 50 lithographs of Algeria made in 1833, barely a few years after the French invasion, thus fairly close to the Regency period. As far as I can tell, most of these images are not currently in Commons, but they would be in the public domain. The plates (images) are accompanied by descriptive texts (though I can't vouch for their accuracy) located in the first 20 pages of the book, matched by number. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 04:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow thanks for this beautiful find ! Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the book was translated into arabic, here it is: [37]Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you very much! Elinruby (talk) 21:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merouche!
Got into this the other night. There is a lovely lovely survey of the historiography in the introduction. Highly recommended. Thank you Scope creep. Elinruby (talk) 23:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: I've not looked at it. I'm glad you found so enlightening. I'll need to take a squint. scope_creepTalk 11:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It absolutely applies to the stuff we have been talking about for the Legacy section Elinruby (talk) 11:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats really handy. That is not something I never even about. I see there is a cn tag been placed by somebody. Its seems quite well written. The city/region and country can't be just written off as a pirate state, taking the formation a real government and high standard of living as highlights is ideal and takes the history right into the modern era. It a nice finale section to a big article. scope_creepTalk 11:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll post that map down to the Graphics Lab and see if anybody takes a look. I'll try and fix a ref for that cn tag, before I make a start. scope_creepTalk 11:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok so ref 28, thanks, I didn't check it just now, just converted it to sfn, but it's vaguely familiar and I have the feeling that I am the one who originally added it in the first place, maybe two years ago when I pulled the article out if the rough translation pile, so thank you. What was the issue that made JSTOR better than Google books again?
On the Legacy section, yeah, the problem is that the French have historically treated Algerians with contempt, and so there are some really biased histories out there. Like.... our guys were crusaders but your guys were just dirty pirates. But of course anything that says that really really needs to be sourced, and I keep telling Nourerrahmane that at least in North American (and probably in Britain too) pirates have Hollywood going for them, so they aren't so much vilified as Disneyfied. Which is of course also a sort of stereotype, but not the one that he's refuting, so he has to explain it before he explains why it is wrong. Which is why Merouche was such a lightbulb moment.-- he points out that the whole dirty-pirate thing really didn't pick up until after the French colonized the place in 1830, which allowed them to tell themselves that they were civilizing those "barbarians". In fact, if you look at the templates at the bottom of the article, I noticed tonight, the French-Algerian conflicts are all in the early 16th century and after 1830.
It still needs work, since there are other things that could be said about legacy than the Regency's contributions to administrative centralization, I suspect. But the article is slowly becoming quite excellent ;) I am very proud of us ;)
PS Nour, you may want to check what I did in that section, but I don't think it is *real* different, just a little less...French? Elinruby (talk) 12:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed that cn tag as well. It was already covered by the reference. scope_creepTalk 13:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: We could have a good chance of taking it to FA then? scope_creepTalk 13:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems a lot happened when i was asleep :) well i totally agree with both of you, how Algerian sources interpret the Ottoman corsair period is radically different from that of the French, the civization mission was a primary justification for the colonization of Algeria, and French historians had to make justifications for this. Though some informations they gave were important, they are mostly biased nonethenless, and Algerian historians, who were also militants for the freedom of Algeria (like Al madani) had to counter those claims. That's why i agree that Merouche highlights this conflict between French steryotype 'Algiers nest of pirates' and Algerian one 'Golden age of Algerian maritime history' requires a profound study of what privateerig is in early modern period, how it was crucial for international relations and trade not only for Algiers but for Europeans also, since Algiers oftern used corso to play off European states against eachother. How it was also important for prestige and how Algerian identity was built in early modern period. Algerian historians also wanted to highlight why the Ottoman period, and more precisely Ottoman influence left an impact on modern Algerian politics, culture, and how it blended with the native Moorish heritage of Medieval Maghreb.
Basically the French wanted to create a hateful generations of Algerians towards this period. Portraying Algerians as resentful to their Ottoman Algerian leaders and more welcoming to the French despite 'brutal conquest' since, well the French were more civilized and thaught Algerians how to 'abide by the law', and in this regard, Ottoman Algerian Hamdan Khodja responds perfectly towards this claim in his book "Le miroir" in 1833, barely few years after the French colonization started.
Speaking of the Legacy section, i don't see much difference, maybe i missed something ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think its changed much recently, although first time I've read in detail since I started. On the above question about journal cites: Google Books doesn't provide the whole journal information including volume, issue, page number range and journal name, just often the article. If you get the article name, do a search on it to find the full journal and doi or something. If not do a cite journal and copy across the volume, issue number, page rage and journal name along with the article title and authors. That way the full journal is cited properly, otherwise its a dead ref that can't be resolved correctly.
aha ok. I just scanned the references for colors and didn't see any ;) Nour, I just nudged it a little more towards neutral is all, the thing I am talking about above about how to describe stereotypes without seeming to say that Wikipedia endorses them. I just want to make sure I don't distort what you are saying because 1) you are the subject matter expert here and 2) I know it's important to you and 3) it has to be neutral or it will be a problem, and also 4) all of the analysis has to be cited or *that* will be a problem. And Scope creep, I thought it was understood that we were trying to blow their socks off at Featured? It isn't ready yet yet, but I see day light :) and while I have your attention, there's an error in the rug section about the Amour mountains... the french article is about the region and the people who live there and make rugs, and the english article is only about the geology. I know the answer is to call it something else in the ILL but I am stuck on what?
Ref 28 fixed
I fixed Ref 28. Google books isn't very good for journal, particularly old journals as I discovered. They don't seem to have info on them. Its junk really. Its worth checking jstor. I found it right away. Its good for old journals. Fixed now anyway. scope_creepTalk 11:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that ref and replaced it with EJ Brill. I think it's less problematic this way Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pages using infobox country or infobox former country with the flag caption or type parameters
Pages using infobox country or infobox former country with the symbol caption or type parameters
Are those problems? or just something they are noting, like Arabic script and Dutch sources?
@Elinruby: I think it is fine as its a country article. If it wasn't it would be problematic, e.g. a BLP or even biographical article as I found out in the past, but fine here. scope_creepTalk
(done, I do believe I've got it!) *Nourerrahmane is Hajj a title? I think so, right? Strictly speaking we are not supposed to use titles after the first time we introduce a person. For this article though, it seems like we sometimes will have to, just to help the reader through all the similar and unfamiliar names, for much the same reason as we were talking about overlinking. But I think I just saw Hajj Chabane as I was scrolling, and there is only one of those. We might have to work through these on a case by case basis. Also, it seems to me that perhaps I am being confusing about overlinking. Did you understand why I unlinked what I did earlier even though I said we should probably overlink names and foreign language words? BasiIcally, nobody is going to be confused about what Algeria is if they have gotten as far down the article as the music section, is pretty much what it is... let me know. Sometimes it could be me that is confused, yanno ;) Don't let the edit count fool you ;) it's probably that high because I correct myself a lot ;)
Nourerrahmane seems like we skip right over [[38]], which might be because it's the Ottoman Empire and not specifically the Regency of Algiers, I can't quite tell, but Ottoman wintering in Toulon is about Hayreddin? Let me take a quick look at that one. I translated that from French, back in the day. Can't quite remember the details though Elinruby (talk) 13:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hajji or Hajj is a honorific title attributed to those who have performed pilgirmage to mecca, since we're talking about rulers here, they were often mentionned with this title as a sign of piety.
Totally not disturbed by your overlinking because i beleive you did a great job explaing certain points in the article or asking me to explain them, as this article is now much clearer thanks to your valuable help.
The Franco Ottoman Alliance, Algiers would be given assistance by French but would also have some trade concessions, the reason why their were so much disagreements between Algiers and constantinople, leading to a seperation in All but name. By 1535 Hayreddin had become the Kapudan Pasha of the Ottoman Empire and was in charge nominally only of Algiers as the rule passed to his successor Hasa Agha, who became the Pasha of Algiers after the failed campaign on Algiers in 1541, So the wintering in Toulon is related to the Regency of Algiers but i need to check if the regency is drectly involved or not. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, now that I look I see that I didn't write the English article, I translated an early or partial version of it into French. I just found the New Masters of Algiers section's discussion of some of this. And yeah ok, Heyreddin went to Constantinople, right. But along the lines of what I just said -- this is mainly for the reviewer and to make sure I understand -- when he did that, he had an assistant, Hasan Agha, who was the son of Hasan Pasha, and that was who Heyreddin left in charge in Constantinople. Now, that Hasan later himself became Pasha? Is that right? This is why I advocate titles and overlinking. Elinruby (talk) 14:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hasan Agha is the adoptive son of Hayreddin Barbarossa, he's Sardianian, and was taken a slave bebore becoming Hayreddin's protégé, and became ruler of Algiers in 1533.
Hasan Pasha was the son of Hayreddin from a local berber mother, he succeeded Hasan Agha in 1544. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)ha[reply]
Ok then, there was Hasan Agha then Hasan Pasha, but they were different people? And Hasan Agha was never Hasan Pasha even though he was ruler? Okay...btw,
in case they are useful, here are the references from the French Hivernage article:
:::Actually that's the bibliography, the references are longer, but I am not up for translating all that syntax right now. Maybe the text in a minute. Meanwhile, isn't this a better, less dark and better-cropped version of an image we are already using? Very similar anyway?
And to answer the earlier question, yes, the question for the images is whether they are better. I think, for example that the lighter edit of the banner is too... pixelated or something, but the darker edit is better than the version we are using. But, question for Scope creep how much can we do before we have to worry about the "faithful reproduction" part of the copyright? That would only be a concern for the art though, not the objects or the buildings, right? And actually: fr:Hivernage_de_la_flotte_ottomane_à_Toulon#References but they are currently saying in edit summaries that Heyreddin was Ottoman not Barbaresque, so I don't necessarily vouch for any part of the article's current condition...Elinruby (talk) 14:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
:::taking a break. Will be back but I am not sure how soon it will be for serious work. May mess around and tie up some loose ends before I fall asleep. Elinruby (talk) 15:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
on Hajj, that's right, you've told me that before, haven't you, Nour. Sorry about that. Scope, they have that thing about the Amour range I mentioned above as a CS1 error; those we want to fix, right? I'll try to figure something out. Elinruby (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
still perfecting a fix for this, feel free to check it out Elinruby (talk) 11
58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
t*(fixed) this text was hanging out by itself in Further reading looking lonely: *<!--Laʻraj--> . Noting here in case something was deleted that shouldn't have been. If it was deleted on purpose, or copied accidentally and this is already fixed, nothing needs to be done. Elinruby (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourrerahmane: just making sure: Bougie is the French name and since we are writing about the pre-colonial period we should be using Bejaia (with a trema) right? We are currently inconsistent about this. Any other cities like this where we should be checking for consistency? Again, the policy/guidance is to pick one form of a name or word in a given article and stick to it, unless it's in a quote of course. Elinruby (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer Bejaia :) other cities in there seem fine. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
er, no. Should I use Annaba or Bone with an accent circonflexe? Don't look at me like that, I can't help if the French renamed everything Elinruby (talk) 22:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok thank you, that answers that question. Elinruby (talk) 00:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
on Chabane, Hajj is in the article title and there are more important things to worry about
I cannot identify the Ali Pasha who is supposed to have given the kaftan in the Crafts section to the king of Sweden, help. Sweden did indeed sign a treaty with Algiers in 1729 and there was an exchange of gifts. That much is true. Elinruby (talk) 02:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the man here: Occhiali. Seems to have had a very varied and busy career. scope_creepTalk 09:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He is already linked in the article in the bust of Occhiali above in the "War against the Spanish-Moroccan Alliance" section. scope_creepTalk 09:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oh that guy. Yes he did and the article also calls him by another name that starts with a U doesnt it? As for already linked.... how close? I have been saying we shpuld overlink. We both have hundreds of hours in the article and we're confused. By the time readers get to the culture section there will have beeb several dozen treaties. I spent about five hours determining that Sweden was never at war with Algiers, it just wanted passports for its ships.And also the Pasha at that time wasn't named Ali. Maybe that U name. I will look again. Elinruby (talk) 21:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and.. the article does not mention this treaty and should if we use this image. Same thing goes for that scarf, though I may be able to work in something about weaving. Elinruby (talk) 21:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually this guy: [39] his name is Ali Abdi per sources, but also known as Kur abdi Pasha Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He seems like he really should have an article on en-wiki. I will add him to See also in the meantime and try to find someplace to mention this treaty. Assuming you want to keep the kaftan image? Elinruby (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, getting tired. He is in the caption of the photo in the culture section so I linked to the French article there. I will see about mentioning him someplace date-appropriate in connection with the effect of the privateers on the mediterranean trade. Going to break for food. Any questions for me? I will check back in a little while but may or may not go to sleep immediately afterwards Elinruby (talk) 01:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Kur Abdi was actually mentionned in the end of the Deylik period in the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)ou[reply]
Is he? That's good and would nomally be just fine. For this article I dunno. That is a lot of sections away from the image. But I will come back to that. As mentioned I am tired and maybe that's affecting my thinking here. The reason I am still here though is that it turns out that the Ottoman Empire had about 17 pashas named Ali. The only one on that list that was in Algiers was Uluc, with a cedille, who is the guy Scope is thinking about. Which does NOT mean that this isn't a different Ali. I will double check this when I come back, but this *can* be fixed, if it is wrong. by calling him something other than Ali Pasha in the caption. I really am gone now Elinruby (talk) 01:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Founded by the corsair brothers Aruj and Hayreddin Barbarossa (Also known as Aruj and Khayr ad-Din changing the second "Aruj" to "Oruc" Elinruby (talk) 07:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rais
Rais is still not linked. I brought this up a month ago and still not fixed. I was planning to put in a definition on an efn tag with a reference. In the context of the articles, although defined as a chief or leader according to the Rais article, but in the context of this articles, they seem to be more akin to an admiral. scope_creepTalk 09:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe similar to an admiral in effect but seemingly still refered to as a "captain". scope_creepTalk 10:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It really needs to be Nourerrahmane that explains it. I have been asking about these and am still unsure. If it's a transliteration problem he needs to spell it out. I think that when used as a title, it should be "Reis" not "Rais" and it means basically means "captain", except that he can sometimes be in command of a small fleet. "Admiral" is a two-part title in Turkish that I don't remember without looking, but that seems to apply only to the Ottoman navy as a whole, not just the Algerian contingent. I think we got somewhere in my most recent question about this but i do not remember if we covered Rais and I am unsure if it is a variation of Reis. It might depend. Where are you seeing this? I think it can also mean "corso" if it is lower case and spelled with a trema. Which half the editors in this article would have ignored because not English. But check with Nourerrahmane. Elinruby (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources use Rais, and other sources use Reis. Had to chose one. but it's used the same way pasha is used. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:27, 9 Aprtl 2024 (UTC)
ok, if they are both right, pick one.
The extreme proliferation of names in this article is a problem and in any article we are supposed to chose one spelling or variant and stick to it, at least if we are still harboring ambitions of featured article status. Remember, you are trying to explain 400 years to people who know nothing nothing nothing and the story is complex enough to confuse people who have already put a bunch of time into it. You do not want the average reader much less the reviewer to be confused. Speaking of confused, I thought Pasha was an appointed bureaucrat and Reis as in Salah Reis was a naval commander. When you get a chance, explain that some more, please. But do the other questions first and get to that when you can, ok? Elinruby (talk) 00:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Salah Rais was a beylerbey, and the beylerbeys of Algiers specifically were corsair captains who held the title of Pasha, governing the entire Ottoman Maghreb. They had two titles, corsair captains and pasha and had real authority over their subjects while enjoying considerable autonomy from the sultan. The beylerbeys of Algiers usually became Kapudan Pasha after they were replaced in Algiers. This obviously scared the sultans who changed the system in place in what was known as the "Pasha period", starting from early 17th century, the pashas were no longer the likes of Salah Rais and Hasan Pasha and Hayreddin Barbarossa, they were usually bureaucrats who were appointed for a 3 years term but held no real authority over the once obedient corsairs and janissaries. Both didn't want Algiers to be just another Ottoman province, but a state with its own intrests as it was designed by the Barbarossa brothers. They made sure the sultan understood this by removing all prerogatives from the appointed pashas, send them back to constantinople or fire them from cannonmouths if they didn't pay the salaries of the soldiers, who, through their military council (Diwan) held true power in the regency as explained in the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok but just so you know, I already changed a bunch of those to Reis because that's what you said two weeks ago, but find and replace is not that hard to do I guess. Speaking of making me crazy, you are now in charge of making sure every image has an alt parameter because you keep changing the images around. This is probably a good thing in the long run but we have been doing this full time for a month now. They are not easy to write and you will have a better idea that anyone else which ones you are likely to delete. The idea of an alt is that you are telling a blinD person what is in the picture. Look at the ones I did in the music section to for examples of what I mean. No names, no right-left, just what is in the picture. I will check them for English, don't worry about that. Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do it by the end of the today if its not done. I've read a pretty good description of what it means in Julien and a couple of other books as well. Wolf had a description I think, a couple sentences, but there should be more in the context of the article subject. It should be a quick fix to link it and put in an efn tag explaining what it is with a couple of references. I will use the article naming that is already used on the main article. It's similar ti military captain as the most senior officer who fights with soldiers as opposed to be on the general staff. Similar to admiral in effect but called a "captain". That is the description. scope_creepTalk 10:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've linked Rais in first mention to main article. Thats fixed. scope_creepTalk 23:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am changing instances of Reis to Rais where it takes theform of for example "Salah Reis", since I am on the machine with find-replace capability. (I don't think Chrome on Android does or if it does please do tell) I am leaving lower case rais with a trema alone, where it is something like a synonym of "corso". I have also left the following Sentence in the Mohammed ben Othman section, pending confirmation from Nourerrahmane.Several captains became famous during his reign, such as Raïs Hamidou, Reis Haj Suleiman, Reis Ibn Yunus and Reis Hajj Muhammad, who according to Al-Zahar, commanded about 24,000 men during his various maritime incursions Please let me know if these should also be changed. Seems like they should but I would like to be certain. Elinruby (talk) 02:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK that was not as bad as I was afraid it would be. All instances of "Reis". except for the above and the navbar, are now "Rais". Let's use that spelling henceforth so this does not need to be done again. All instances of "Bone" Have been changed to "Annaba". All instances of "Bougie" have been changed to "Bejaia", except, again, for the navbars. Thoise may be appropriate there if the context is colonial. Note to self to add the trema into Bejaia when I am on my phone, where this is easily done. Elinruby (talk) 03:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane:@Elinruby: We probably still need a definition as the main article doesn't cover it. It can be here as an efn tag or probably better on the main article as a small para, two or three lines. Its heavily used all through the article. scope_creepTalk 17:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you were suggesting Reis (military rank) and it doesn't seem wrong -- let's see what Nour has to say? Elinruby (talk) 17:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That article is ideal. We can close this as fini. scope_creepTalk 21:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reis and Rais, both are correct, I used "Rais" more commonly per most sources i used to write the article. Yet both are correct and i think it's a good idea to stick to one of these spellings, i agree that a short definition of "the rais" or the corsair captains is needed, the most adequate section for that is the Ali Bitchin Rais section. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
btw the way I noticed that in another article written by Nourerrahmane "the rais" (lower case with a trema) links to Barbary pirates 05:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Ref 79
There is some kind of atomic machinery missing from Ref 79 that stops it working. scope_creepTalk 15:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 52 is "holt et al" pointed to the same reference. I am not currently in the right fram of mind to tackle this, but that is what it is complaining about. Elinruby (talk) 22:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey all, sorry didn't respond in time, i'll be absent for a day or two because of holidays, i'll try to answer some questions if i have free time. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oh hai Nour please put us out of our misery as to rais in the section above. Elinruby (talk) 00:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
by the way even though there are more of them coded the other way, I think we should use Holt et al, because that very long citation seems to be what is preventing the cites from fitting into two columns 22:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Holt is fixed. It was just a miss spelling. scope_creepTalk 18:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For added enjoyment the French invasion section
It's a nice picture but the text does not mention Sidi Fredj. I gather that this is where the French Army landed, but if you are going to mention the place in the caption it needs to be mentioned in the article. Also the file name spells it Sidi-Feruch, though I guess that's oj because it is linked and the article does give Fredj as an alternate name. I take it that this is French vs. Arabic some more?
Alternately it is probably ok to change the caption to 'Landing of the French Army" but I would go the other way since the file name looks like it is the name of the work. 00:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I took care of this unless somebody objects to the fix.Elinruby (talk) 08:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the 18th-century Spanish, who swung between two imperatives: preserving their presidency and maintaining a fragile peace with Algiers is presidency the right word? (need to check source)
(done)O'Reilly is described as Irish and he was indeed born there, however his military allegiance was to the king Empire of Spain. Elinruby (talk) 03:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I changed "Irish admiral to "Irish-born admiral of the fleet of the Spanish Empire" Elinruby (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I expanded the Barbary wars section, I think it needed more details. I’ll work on image alts Nourerrahmane (talk) 05:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good thanks. Sorry if I was a bit sharp the other day.Several other annoying things had happened and I was tired. I am about to leave and be gone for several hours, but I will put in a good stretch of work on this when I come back. Elinruby (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do think that if you are not done rearranging the images however it is probably best that you write the alts. BTW I got about halfway through trans-titles in the bibliography then accidentally closed the window. I will come back to that soon. As best I can tell Nour has in fact done all the titles that are in Arabic, at least that I noticed while working on this . 01:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Merouche
Did I sent the 2nd volume of Merouche? It is 2016. scope_creepTalk 23:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Second volume is 2007, Elin linked it here and i have it (It's about privateering and political history of Algiers) Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I uploaded it to the internet archive but I think I got the date of publication wrong so it may disappear. Get it now if you need it. I probably should look into thet and remove it if I did. Elinruby (talk) 01:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a really cool. I never thought of doing that. The 2016 I have the 2nd volume. 2007 is the first volume. scope_creepTalk 07:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dont have 256 or whatever the right number is now. I made a little progress with the checklist and was just coming bCkk. Dropbox might be better if it's still around Elinruby (talk) 07:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
resolved 254 and 255 is Arabic isn't it? Elinruby (talk) 07:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: Refs have moved as article has been updated. Hard to check now. scope_creepTalk 17:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Treaty with England image
(I realized this would be in the alt if anything, where it wouldn't matter, so never mind)I have just realized that the thing I called a fastener, then a seal, is in fact a
tugra and plan to change that unless one of you thinks otherwise. In favor of change: More specific and there is some history there. Against change: Another unfamiliar word, but it will be linked and it will be in a caption, so it's not going to stop the flow of anyone's reading. Elinruby (talk) 01:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
On asking to join the Ottoman Empire
letter written in Oct recently found in Constantinople
Some distracting stuff about letter written by others
Some early historians follow Haedo who was wrong on timeline
Probably arrived Constantinople in June
Selim refused
Spain was not the reason cited in the sources I looked at
Selim eventually convinced to send a man to take a look
That ship was captured by Venice
Matters peacefully resolved but meanwhile Selim died
Hayreddin was lying
Some stuff about an invasion that the winds took elsewhere (??)
Soleiman accepted after 18 months
It is not clear to me whether the important detail is how long Hayreddin tried to be independent, why he changed his mind, or how long it look to decide this matter.
Can you we do a checkpoint this weekend to determine what is still needing done and what's not been finalised? scope_creepTalk 10:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yeah but we need to have a chat about format because apparently tthe collapse thing isn't working for you. Which is ok. It *is* non-standard. I was also thinking of running earwigs again to be on the safe side but I am pretty confident. Listen did you see that revert in the infobox? Someone changed "Algeria" to "Ottoman Algeria". It's a cruel world. Trying to decide whether to say something. Maybe let Nour? But yes is the answer to your question. How did that EST thing go? Elinruby (talk) 11:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think of my question just above? What's the important part here? Hayreddin needed Selim more than Selim needed Hayreddin maybe? I was gone for a while then was making a list of articles I wish a Spanish speaker would write from scratch. I am taking nominations. Let me see what I can knock out here now that I am done. I think I found the Wiktionary syntax before I went to dinner. At least -- that's my best effort. See what you think. Elinruby (talk) 11:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw the revert. I left a welcome message for the editor. It was very decent map, better than the current one. Oh, you talking about the arabic description. Saw that. I don't know if its ideal or not. EST? I think it too detailed at too fine a level, unless critically important and I'm missing something. The article timeline covers a vast period and it seems to be minute in terms of that timeline. scope_creepTalk 11:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Nourerrahmane) was very insistent that the first sentence call it an Ottoman jurisdiction initially but I guess he moved on from that. He is our subject matter expert. Pretty sure he's studied this in college, which I have not. That kinda is a bit PoV come to think of it, I mean look at the talk page. Did they think that we didn't notice that Ottoman were around at the time? Me duh gonna check references now, Above my pay grade. You have somethign to say about the Dey section, let me see what that was. Elinruby (talk) 12:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby: (edit conflict) I think that section above may be important. What section specifically of the article does it apply to? It must be important somehow and I'm missing it. On archiving. I don't mind it but it quite click heavy, doing two clicks to open the checklist section. I had to revert last week as the rendering was damaged as a "cot" was missing. It has squeezed it out side of the talk page on the right and only a revert would fix it. scope_creepTalk 13:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ottoman regency of Algiers in Arabic is a description, not the name of Algeria back then. These periodic reverts come mostly from Moroccan Npovs who fail to acknowledge Algiers as a geopolitical entity of its own, so they twist the meaning of « Ottoman regency of Algiers » as if it was a mere Ottoman province, without taking into consideration the nature of the Ottoman elite of Algeria and its relation with the imperial ottoman center in Constantinople as well as Europe and the natives.
We faced a number of these disruptive editors and socks in the past. Not just in this article but in capture of fez for example.
sorry again for my late replies as I’m spending most of my time with family during holidays. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's ok. I think I am currently the chokepoint as I am supposed to be managing the workflow and I had a) do some RL and b) think about something else for a bit. I am trying to do the assessment scope asked for this weekend. Enjoy. Thank you for explaining; I am glad I didn't engage. So...come back fresh because there are lingering questions about Rais;) lol Elinruby (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
think it might be all the images. We can talk about this in a sec. I unlinked the images since you guys weren't answering anyway. well. there might be one set left. Going to settings brb Elinruby (talk) 13:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
section about is 1.1.5 Agiers joins the Ottoman Empire. The two versions I looked at differ somewhat and agree with the Arabic source for a certain definition of "agree". However I am fairly certain neither mentioned Spain. One said Span had just just been pacified and there was something, I think in the other one, about preparations to invade Rhodes. Look at the source I added that starts with an I Elinruby (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC
You had a question about the timeline. Hayreddin wrote the letter in October 1519, the emissaries reached Constantiople in June 1520 probably and Selim said no. The diplomats did their thing so Selim sent a fact finder back with the delegation. The Venetians captured their ship, negotiations delayed things, and Selim died. The captured delegation was released and by then Soleiman the Magnificent was in power and *he* agreed to let Algiers join the Ottoman Empire. But Hayreddin was sweating out domestic disturbances, an impending invasion from either Sardinia (or maybe Corsica) -- but a storm blew it off course -- and also an unruly Sheik in the west. Imber also implies that Hayreddin forged the other two letters or had them forged. All I remember without looking. But it seems like too much fine detail for a 400-year survey Elinruby (talk) 13:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So my question is, what is the summary of that?Elinruby (talk) 13:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
mohammed ben othman is :fr:Mohammed el Kebir
huge article over there
Projects for a future time redux
these linked articles have expand-french templates, lack sources or otherwise can be improved. I included redlinks and ILLs
Hadj Ahmed -- this is linked to a village not a person
Also see problem with Amour mountains, Ahmad Sharif al-Zahhar, a naqib al-ashraf of Algiers during the late Ottoman era there.[1]Elinruby (talk) 05:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Zahhār 1974, pp. 23–24. sfn error: no target: CITEREFZahhār1974 (help)
based on some clicking around I am really pretty sure the artist was not born in 1992 but I would like them to tell me that and fix the file description. But while I love the image and really want to use it, why was it in that particular section? Elinruby (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok they fixed it. It is officially ok to use the image. Previous info: | image1 = A Barbary Pirate by Giovanni Guida.jpg | caption1 = A Barbary Pirate, Giovanni Guida (1837-1895) | alt1 = Turbaned and shirtless man with knives and a pistol in a sash around his waist
timur possible references
I can'r find the request for a reference right now. These look respectable and are used to support the this" {{Timariot (or tımar holder; tımarlı in Turkish) was the name given to a Sipahi cavalryman in the Ottoman army. In return for service, each timariot received a parcel of revenue called a timar, a fief, which were usually recently conquered plots of agricultural land in the countryside.[1][2] Far less commonly, the sultan would grant a civil servant or member of the imperial family a timar.[3] Also non-military timar holders were obliged to supply the imperial army with soldiers and provisions.[4]
The timariots provided the backbone of the Ottoman cavalry force and the army as a whole. They were obligated to fight as cavalrymen in the Ottoman military when called upon.}} at Timariots. Check then use. Elinruby (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
İnalcık, Halil; Quataert, Donald, eds. (2003) [1990]. An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300–1914. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-57456-0. Two volumes.
Page 107İnalcık, Halil, ed. (1978). The Ottoman Empire : Conquest, Organization and Economy. Cambridge University Press.
I am putting the ILL on Capidjys in the caption on this image: AN EMBASSADOR FROM GREAT TURK TO THE KING OF ALGIER.jpg
Again.
I think this is the third or fourth time. Either stop unlinking it or tell me what the issue is. On that note, I am not finished with the documentation but I am currently pretty done. I will be back but am unsure when Elinruby (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Elin, i'm sorry for this, but i haven't touched touched the Capyjis at all, if so, please send a link so i can avoid doing this in the future. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got some sleep which was most of the problem. the image is currently in "Ottoman suzerainty declines". Perhaps when you moved images?I am over it but I would like to finish this article in my lifetime. By the way I am on my laptop an you are right about the image size. Too bad Wikipedia doesn't have style sheets 17:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
sorry for spelling, just now woke up, going for breakfast now. All your changes make it better Nour. I appreciate you. I will send you some notes later, Elinruby (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Goodmorning Elin, thanks, this would have not happened without your motivation and contribution, and me too, i really want to finish this article, and i think we made it quite comprehensive and understandable. I have made some additions in Rais, which i it's clear by now, and Saidouni Pov in Legacy section, as he parallels the the developpement of the Regency with the Ottoman Empire's different periods. Please tell me if you find it useful enough. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane: Useful, yes but the way the sentence is written is confusing and contains a lot of abstract ideas that aren't quite explained. I can fix that however, assuming I understand it correctly
then developed with the [transformation of the Ottoman Empire]] from strength and expansion to weakness and consolidation through local governments that accepted Ottoman legitimacy.
When we first started doing this, I wasn't really looking at article history. Since I have started doing that, I am a little less baffled about why it is so important to explain that it was a legitimate state, but how prevalent is the idea that it wasn't, really? I'd like to look at the Ngrams. Wasn't Scope creep's reaction that he had had no idea about any of that? I suspect that this is true of most English speakers. So that is a question.
But to answer the one you asked me: does this mean "as the Ottoman Empire grew, so too did the strength of the Regency. However Algiers lost its influence with the decline of privateering?" The phrase "consolidation through": should that be consolidation of? Consolidation with? It doesn't quite make sense. It should also be cited, but that author writes in Arabic, right? So I am going to have to ask you questions. I think you should not be afraid of using more words, is what I think. I think it is a good idea to point to the Mediterranean geopolitical structure. Possibly alsp the losses in naval battles, the famine, and the insurrections in the west? So question one: am I right about the first part. Question two: what does the second part mean? And btw, Arabic or not this needs a reference even though you attribute it. HTH Elinruby (talk) 08:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To answer your first question, the Regency developped its political structure and undertook its policy in part in regards to the developpement of the Ottoman Empire, which undertook transformations and became less centralised, this prompted Algiers to become more autonomous since the Ottomans stepped away from western mediterranean politics. for your second question i will reword that part because it is related to your first question, the idea is how did Algiers asserted its sovregnity in regards to a declining Ottoman Empire. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done, hopefully it's more understandable this way. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is, but the thing with the historical periods was good, I thought, and one of the things I did not understand is what you mean by "its own specificity", which is still there. Its own identity? Independence? Autonomy? Elinruby (talk) 10:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Political structure and economy and relations between the ruler and the ruled, more precisely the military government and the privateer economy and society. c'est un tout actually. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that's why i relocate it (Historical periods) as the Political status section seems the most fit for that, the political developpement of Algiers was perpenduant to the political developpement of the Ottoman Empire. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Khalil Bulukbashi, Bulukbashi is the janissary title for senior officers, and members of the private Diwan were Bulukbashis, when, they become president of the Diwan they attain the rank of Agha, which is why we find in sources both Khalil Bulukbashi, and Khalik Agha. I intend to start writing an article about him. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)th[reply]
ok that is helpful. I have an italian from the period who claimed the Dey bathed in blood and the guy de Montesquieu is quoting is really vile. As in the algerians, really don't like women, and also, they get nne-year-olds pregnant. Do we really want to quote this person? The sources themselves seem better than the people they are quoting. I had one a minute ago that said that the Algerians were particularly disliked because they were "arrogrant", which she thinks means "wanted too much money" and "could enforce their demands>"Elinruby (talk) 12:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone has a reason why "capidjys" should not have an inter-language link please let me know what it is and I will no doubt respect it. For example, if the link is erroneous, that would be a good reason. Even "I don't like it" would be enough at this point. It is just frustrating.
On the whole the iterative changes that the article is going through have greatly improved it. I do want to make that clear.
I would like us to work from the check list now, which I have uncollapsed. There is one section that needs formatting, will look at that next. There are also some some talk page sections I added elsewhere that need to be added to the checklist. Mea culpa. Please let me know if this helps make it clear what still needs doing. I have nudged Mathglot about the Agriculture section. Nourerrahmane, should I ping you or would you like me to just make a suggestion and leave you alone for a while? he Talk page was very messed up at one point this weekend. I told Scope to start at Manufacturing and check me going down the page. The legacy sectiion mighr be enough to worry about, actually. Are you back from holiday? Elinruby (talk) 04:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I’m back and please ping me so it would be easier for me to answer since the talk page is very big now.
I’m ready to get back at this, and I’ll start by doing a check of the last suggestions you and scope did in the checklist. Nourerrahmane (talk) 06:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry Nour I didn't ping you on anything did I. Want me to go through and do that? There are some questions that need you. 12:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Layout: Check me on this
If this is another problem that only I can see I do not want to waste time on it. I am currently on a laptop. I can't currently remember, if I ever knew, how to check the screen resolution on Linux. But it is wider than most laptops. It seems to me that Wikipedia is trying, when it renders the page, to line the elements up, so the reason for the big white space to the right of, for example, the image of the Cardinal at the top of #Spanish expansion in the Maghreb might be that it is trying to align the text with either the right edge of the table of contents or the left edge of the infobox.
First of all, do you two even see this big blank space? What about in the #Algerian Jewish merchants section? Elinruby (talk) 04:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The space to the right of the image at #Spanish expansion in the Maghreb, re Cardinal is not there. Same in the #Algerian Jewish merchants section. Its fine as well. Its just the way your browser is rendering it. scope_creepTalk 09:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then I will stop fussing with the section headers until I can look in another browser. If anybody hates those changes feel free to put them back. I just found a much more important issue anyway. Thank you Elinruby (talk) 09:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On your point from your sandbox, I do intend to check from manufacturing forward starting today. scope_creepTalk 10:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikilala
I have just discover this database at the wikipedia library. The choice of language is between Turkish and Ottoman Turkish, but I have dealt with Ukranian and Russian before so with a little motivation Nourerrahmane for example might have a really good time....
Yes there is a problem with lulu.com sorry
i just got my eyes and brain coordinated enough to read the diff. So we haven't talked about this because too much else is going on but wait a minute. Who is the author? Let me read again. Elinruby (talk) 10:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it is Hasan Bey and the al-Zahar below is that talk ref thing. I will explain that again later, but I got scared because I did *reference* al Zahar earler and on the device with the deranged mousepad to. If I did something to at Zahar it's a mistake. If we are on fact talking about Hasan Bey, somewhere in the checklist stuff Scope creep did yesterday he point out that Lulu.com is a vanity press and he is right. It is on a list of several publishers who will print any thing f or anyone with enough money, so everything the produce is blacklisted. A shame because that cafe society stuff will be a little tough to re-source. So I am going to stop talking so that you can tell me whether you know what I am talking about or do I need to explain reliable sources some more? that is not. Sarcastic question. You are still pretty new I think, right? No shame in not knowing. It is not learning that is the issue. Which brings me to my next questions: did anyone ever tell you about the Wikipedia Library? There are some other things like Free access to JsTor also. Let me know Elinruby (talk) 10:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know what you're talking about, so Hasan bey is not a RS, so yeah it will be tough to resource the lot. and i know about wikipedia library though i rarely use it. And i never had free access to JsTor Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
aha well let me tell you about free access to JsTor. When you are are the sign on screen You click...I think it goes sign on with Jstor versus sign on through your institution. I think you ick that one then, pinkie promise, maybe sign in with Jstor, if you have a Google account you can sign up for a free account that can read 100 artocles a months and downoad a few also. Maybe ten. But it's whatever those members are, every month. Which goes a long way. I just saw some really specific stuff about streets on Algiers yesterday. I don't know that it mentioned those cafes but beat on mind that I'm the one who wanted to talk about music in the cafes at night so I eill help eith this. Yesterday I was looking for irrigation though. And what Ben Othman did about the Water support in Algiers Elinruby (talk) 11:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the only requirement for JStor is a Google account. I thing they might take an email too. There are two ways to do this though. I just always use google myself because a lot of the time I am on an android anyway. You might be having a "this article is taking over my life" moment but I do think we are 75 to 80 % done and there is no deadline. We need to find this stuff ourselves tho. If we still want GA and I know I do. This article will be exquisite when done Elinruby (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok mobile interface starting to teds the text around again. I am going back to bed. If you haven't found the place to make a JStor account by my the time we talk again let me know and I will walk you through it it. Elinruby (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
if you need some suggestions about what needs doing i started but did not finish section 3 and the subsection right before it that has the copy vio. Or not, if you have stuff you would rather do. Elinruby (talk) 12:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC) night, gotta go Elinruby (talk) 12:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all this Elin, have a goodnight. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hasan Bey isn't non-rs. As far as I'm concerned it couldn't verify the block but could be good for other stuff. scope_creepTalk 15:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you said it was published on lulu.com Elinruby (talk) 09:01, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Geez, I forgot about and its only been 2-3 weeks as well. I'm glad somebody is remembering what has been said. Forget what I said about it. scope_creepTalk 09:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Few more additions in the Crisis of the 19th century, a quick review would be nice :) Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I took it out, It would break my heart to have a GA fail after all this. That is why N woke me up last night. Not that I am complaining about that. I often *am* awake at that time. Just explaining a certain incoherence in my early posts to the thread, which starts on my talk page btw. I am getting a lot of hits about coffeehouses -- apparently the Ottomans established them everywhere they had ties to -- but Algiers is tougher. Once you add it in to the search terms a lot of the hits seem to be either about the Young Turks or the Algerian Civil War, There is probably a remedy to this in search syntax somehow. Incidentally I will be gone most of the day and evening tomorrow (Pacific time). Bit I may be able to get some stuff done tonight. Maybe I'll take a break from coffeehouses and do the trans-titles. Unsure. Still just barely sitting down.
Wishlist: Walls of Algiers: Narratives of the City Through Text and Image
Editors Zeynep Celik, Julia Clancy-Smith, Frances Terpak
Edition illustrated
Publisher University of Washington Press, 2018
ISBN 0295996722, 9780295996721
Length 288 pages
I checked this, couldn't find it. scope_creepTalk 10:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nourerrahmane:, how are you getting on with updating those fixes on the 2nd block of the review I did. I guess the 3rd block won't be done yet. I'll start check the "Crisis of the 19th century" today. scope_creepTalk 10:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i'll finish Society today, hopefully the social structureis much more understandable. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have quick look at it over the remains of the weekend. scope_creepTalk 12:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The population revolted in Blida, the Hodna and Issers, in some oases of the south and Al-Nammasha in the Aurès.[1]
Unable to verify. Would love for some one to show this to me. Alternately another source?
References
^Allioui 2006, p. 369. sfn error: no target: CITEREFAllioui2006 (help)
You did good to remove it, i think its not a very important information knowing that there were rebellions in Kabylia that the dey ended. Also i noticed that i did a lot of mistakes in spelling when i did those additions, so i'll make sure to check out all your modifications so i can avoid wasting your time with these mistakes in the futureJus.
Not sure i understand your point, my spelling could be worked on though i think the article is mostly finished by now, i'm working mostly on refs that Scope is mentionning, and i'm not in a hurry, this might take a while and i do it in my freetime since i enjoy working on this article and if you feel better stepping away then so be it, GL to you. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update checks
I've got the rest of today free so plan to check the 2nd tranche of updates I did to see if they are done. I had a look at the "Crisis in the 19th century" section. Refs were ok. One para may need work. I've left comments in the checklist section as per. scope_creepTalk 13:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Take an look especially at quotes, still finding fresh problems with those Elinruby (talk) 15:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the image alt tags are really well written now. They are excellent. scope_creepTalk 07:23, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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resolved: Algiers only a city prior to Ottoman period
Citadelle Alger2
santa crus vue du palais du bey oran![Dar Khedaoudj el Amia [fr], World Heritage site, no English article, but fr and ar also see](//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Palace_khdaouedj_amia.jpg/120px-Palace_khdaouedj_amia.jpg)
Dar Khedaoudj el Amia, World Heritage site, no English article, but fr and ar also see
![Dar Khedaoudj el Amia [fr], World Heritage site, no English article, but fr and ar also see](/File:Palace_khdaouedj_amia.jpg)
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![Bordj moulay hassan XIXe siècle 1830 Fort l'Empereur [fr], also Arabic](/File:Bordj_moulay_hassan_XIXe_si%C3%A8cle.jpg)
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coral fishermen are gone, so that takes care of that, I guess. Leaving section open as currently unsure whether all references were checked Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
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