User talk:PamD/Archive 15

As you are the expert on disamb and redirect pages for WiR, I have a problem. Gloria's legal name is Florence, i.e. newspaper articles about her appointments and the trial are found in that name, although Gloria is how she is typically reported. When I went to make a redirect for Florence Cameron, it goes to this page, which is unlike any redirect I've ever seen before, as it has specific categories to David Cameron. I don't want to screw anything up, but I think reserving the space for a 13 year old who may or may not be notable is an issue, when we have someone who is demonstrably notable and also has that as a legal name. I don't know if it is best to create a dismb page or how to proceed. Can you help? SusunW (talk) 15:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you for fixing this AND finding that MBE notice. I just could not find it. Makes it so hard when the official notices are in a different name. I appreciate your help so much. SusunW (talk) 19:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hallo @SusunW, as you've already noticed I reckon a dab page instead of that redirect is the answer. Because there were categories on it, I've moved them to the new redirect at the child's full name, so she'll still appear in appropriate categories. I also checked to see what pages linked to Florence Cameron, and tweaked the link in 2010_in_the_United_Kingdom#Births to use that new redirect at the longer name. A lot of redirects have the "{{Rcat shell|" etc stuff, with "Rcats" to show what sort of redirect it is (eg "from relative"), but when a redirect is for an entity which doesn't have its own article the redirect - or one of the redirects for the entity - can also have categories. So if I redirect a book to an author, I may also put it into a category like Category:2023 Australian novels, but if I make redirects both from the full title of the book and for a variation (like omitting "The"), I'll only put the one, most useful, redirect into those categories so it only appears there once. There doesn't seem to be a recognised concept of a "primary redirect" which gets the categories, but I know what makes sense to me, anyway!

I didn't reply here sooner because I was rummaging around trying to find the London Gazette entry for her MBE, but the issue for the 1980 birthday honours doesn't seem to have any ordinary MBEs, only diplomatic and overseas service ones; all a bit odd. The Jamaican Gleaner source looks fine, and is definitely dated Jan 1980. I've found it in The Times, but puzzled about The Gazette (and she doesn't appear in 1980 New Year Honours either). I find I've had a similar problem with another woman, so I've asked the experts at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Awards#1980_New_Year_Honours_-_where_are_the_MBEs? for advice!

I found an interesting snippet on a site called "bigredbook" page "a charitable life", which Wikipedia considers problematic and won't let me link to, which says that when she was on "This is your life", she "was greeted via a live link by her son - a musician with the pop group, Hot Chocolate.". There's a Chris Cameron listed as a former member in

Hot_Chocolate_(band), though he isn't listed under "line-ups" below - sources seem to say he was a backing vocalist. I've made a redirect for him to the band, as there are a couple of sources there which mention him. PamD

19:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that and wrote to Terry Lee who runs the site because it says her mother appeared on the show. Surely they didn't introduce her mom without saying her name? But I've had no reply. I added Chris to the Hot Chocolate former members with a couple of refs. He's probably notable. Was a director for George Michael too per sources. But, I'm not an expert of music or musicians. I am truly grateful for your help, she was a really, really hard one to write. Difficult period, not a lot of digitization, especially for the Black press and then the whole legal verses known by name. I figured I had several sources confirming the MBE but was frustrated I couldn't find Gazette entry. It took forever to find secondary sources about the trial and I felt I couldn't publish it without those. Finally just put in Southwark Crown Court and scrolled through February 1989 until I found 2 articles about it. (The judge, Valerie Pearlman, is also likely notable, one of the first to use the internet in a trial.) SusunW (talk) 19:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

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Thank you for your work on improving Anne Ellis to a stable and valuable state! Hopefully I can further expand the page, but your contributions are greatly appreciated. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:09, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

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--Lajmmoore (talk) 12:55, 26 February 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Just search haer name up and you will find it, it's not that hard RxxingAddict (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

@RxxingAddict If you want the information to be in the article, you need to provide a source. If you are not capable of doing so, then please stop trying to edit the encyclopedia. Thanks. PamD 17:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

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Requesting your visit to have look at the the changes to the article and further t/p discussion since present title Women and bicycling in Islam was adopted and share your inputs @ Talk:Women and bicycling in Islam if possible. Bookku (talk) 03:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

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Link added by PamD: Milner Field

Hi Pam. Struggling to understand the intricacies of Wikipedia due to work commitments. I created a page on Milner Field a few months ago, that seemed to have been rejected and I kind of lost the will to live. I notice it is now live, with your name against lots of the activity. No problem with that, but I would love to chat to you (if only I knew how) to ask for a couple of edits. The first being you seem to have linked THOMAS HARRIS in my article to an incorrect THOMAS HARRISON - who was a different person completely. Would be happy to edit myself, but don't want to break whatever work you have done to make my page live. Thanks Andy Mac

(apologies, I also don't see a 'New Section' you reference when instructing people to contact you) Thanks again. Andymac1965 (talk) 10:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@

WP:NOTABLE

in Wikipedia's terms.

As I said in my edit summary, I was about to create an article on the house (after reading Frances Brody's book) but found your draft and thought it was salvageable. I found and added a lot of references, as Wikipedia does not include unsourced information, and trimmed out some unsupported stuff. There still aren't enough inline references, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone landed on the article and excised large chunks of it as inadequately sourced.

The link from "Thomas Harris" to Thomas Harrison (architect) was one you made yourself - it's present in this version at which time no-one but you had edited it. Please take care not to tell other editors that they've made mistakes when they haven't. I've unlinked it now.

That "New section" ... it looks as if the software now has "Add", in at least some versions, so I've tweaked that, thanks, and sorry it was confusing.

I'll see if I can track down anything about the right Thomas Harris. Meanwhile if there is stuff to add to the article, with

reliable independent published sources

, then of course please do so. It isn't "my" article or "your" article, but an encyclopedia article based on a draft you created, polished up a bit by me, and open to anyone to improve.

Another little point: when you post anything on a user talk page, it's a courtesy to all other editors to link to the page in question, so that not only the page owner but any passing "talk page watchers" can get there immediately without having to type or copy-and-paste the link. Thanks. Happy Editing! PamD 12:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Found him: Thomas Harris (architect)! Easier than I expected. PamD 12:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

And in the classic time-sink of Wikipedia editing, I've expanded the article about Harris. PamD 15:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. I quickly found out it wasn't just a case of rocking up and typing my knowledge, but as stated, work committments meant I didn't have time to follow up. You must admit, it's a minefield to a newby!!

You seem very knowledgebable so I would be happy to collaborate with you to make the page into the type of page I wanted it to be. Frances Brody is in our FB group and her books are great.

Thanks again for the Thomas edit ...... I swear blind I removed the link to HARRISON even though it kept reverting.

Please keep in touch. Andymac1965 (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@

WP:RS

- "Reliable independent published sources". This can be very frustrating for people who have deep personal knowledge of a topic, but that's the way it goes. You can see that I found a few newspaper articles to add, etc. How did you learn the stuff about the history? For example, if it was from the Lee-Van den Daele & Beale book, then add references to that book, preferably to specific pages or at least chapters, for each chunk of text supported. There are various formats editors can use for references, such as "Harvard" refs etc, but the important thing is to show that everything you typed is verifiable in published sources: the exact formatting can be tidied up if need be.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the type of page I wanted it to be". It has to be accurate, appropriately referenced,

WP:PROMOTE

any cause or campaign.

There's generally no need to email an editor, unless (a) they haven't replied to a user talk page post within a reasonable time (a day or two perhaps - people have different priorities and your question may not be high on their list) but have obviously been editing since you posted (you can look at someone's contributions to see their activity) or (b) there's something sensitive about the issue which isn't appropriate to put on the public user talk page, or, I suppose (c) it really is something very urgent you want to draw their attention to or need help with (but there are probably usually better channels).

All the best, PamD 20:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting that out. I'll add some bits later from my books. A very strange situation with that dab page! I went there about 12 years ago when it still had a vaguely regular bus service; while not exactly a metropolis, there's enough of interest there to pass an hour or two. Sadly the former Congregational chapel was demolished in the late 20th century. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 12:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

For clearing up my formatting mess. Thanks! CT55555(talk) 20:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - that looks delicious and calorie-free! PamD 21:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red Apr 2023, Vol 9, Iss 4, Nos 251, 252, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266 Online events: New: Gender studies | Health | Dance | Alphabet run S & T | Books by women Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman | See also: Women in Red is supporting Every Book Its Reader through our Books by women event. Tip of the month: When writing about a book, check WP:POETRYSTANDARDS for guidance. Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

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• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
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• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
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• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
• is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
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Under the

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The redirect Alston, Westmorland and Furness has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 5 § Alston, Westmorland and Furness until a consensus is reached. Devokewater 08:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The redirect Windermere (town), Westmorland and Furness has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 5 § Windermere (town), Westmorland and Furness until a consensus is reached. Devokewater 09:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I have just seen the immense amount of work that was evidently necessary (blush) and that you have done on the Secret Lives of Baba Segi's Wives (novel) page. Thank you very much indeed! Balance person (talk) 16:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@

MOS:DATETIES

. I'll leave it to you to fix those.

If an author is something corporate like "African Writer Magazine", don't try to force it into the straitjacket of "First, last". "Author" will work: I've tweaked that one.

That Goodreads link for the Arabic title doesn't seem to work for me: I can't see the Arabic .... ah, I can now, by following links from the page you linked. I'll modify that reference so that it links to the page which lists the editions. Done. It might be better to link to Worldcat (=authoritative) rather than GoodReads (=less authoritative), but I couldn't actually find the Arabic version there (Hebrew, yes, but not Arabic!). You could, if you feel energetic, include a "Publication history" section listing some or all of the various different language editions with publisher, date, ISBN, translater if available. An ISBN counts as a reference to verify the existence of an edition of a book, so no further sourcing is needed (click on the ISBN and it takes you to a pageful of links to find the book, with "Worldcat" one of the most useful).

Happy Editing! PamD 17:54, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Balance person I'm having doubts as to which cover is that of the first edition published so deserves to be in the article (only one allowed). I wonder whether the one here is the one to include? Any thoughts? If you prefer it, and feel brave, have a go at "Upload a file" if you haven't tried it before. It's fairly straightforward, but you need to say "none" explicitly when it asks whether there are any special conditions, near the end. PamD 18:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh I like the one that you already put on. It is the cover on the version I have here at home for reference. I think it captures something of the character of the fourth wife somehow! But thanks for all the tips. I am copying them off for future reference! Balance person (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, PamD. Thank you for your work on

I was about to write a short thank you and nice job on the article, then noticed it was you who created it. So didn't want to leave that and sound condescending. How come you are not autopatrolled?

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Onel5969}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Onel5969 ^{TT me} 09:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@Onel5969 Have a look at the history, and at my post on the talk page of the editor who over-wrote the redirect I created! PamD 15:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@Onel5969 The previous ping, from my phone, didn't work. PamD 16:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@Onel5969 But you need to look at the page history of their talk page, as they first replied to me, dismissively, and then deleted my post. See my post, and his reply. This is an enthusiastic but careless editor who sometimes damages the encyclopedia. PamD 16:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Wow. Well, first, when doing page patrol I use the curation tool, which brings up a small box with the most recent edits, as well as telling me who created the article. I do not really look at the page history unless there's a problem (e.g. suspected COI/UPE, or I'm going to PROD/AfD the article). Which wasn't an issue in this case. Many times I do not even notice the name of the page creator. But because I'm familiar with your name, as I went to leave a message, it caught my eye. Prompting me to leave the above message. Not sure why that editor feels so put upon. Not sure I'm going to engage on that talk page. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 10:05, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading File:Logo of Hanoi International School, 2014.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@B-bot The bot wasn't to know that an IP had broken the Infobox so that the image was unlinked. Now fixed. PamD 20:33, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi there

Good job. I am simply updating paces in Cumbria in light of the new local government arrangeents in the area. I admit that my knowledge of Cumbria in general in pretty scant, so anything you feel needs adding is greatly appreciated! Bleaney (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that the old districts were distinctly useful in identifying approx location, so the articles are weaker without them. I suppose that I could try to follow you around adding locations, but if you could cast a quick eye at a map and add something it would help. Some already have it, perhaps not in the lead. I ought to be doing other RL stuff right now but I might give way and spend some time patching these up instead, now or soon! PamD 14:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article John Yarbrough is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Yarbrough until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:12, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red May 2023, Vol 9, Iss 5, Nos 251, 252, 267, 268, 269, 270 Online events: New: Alphabet run U, V, W | Disability | Women in Education | CEE women Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman | See also: Wikimedia CEE Spring 2023/CEE Women - Wikimedia contest with postcards and prizes The Wikipedia Library: #1Lib1Ref - May 15th to June 5th Tip of the month: Use the Google translate app and camera on your phone to translate text from an article or book Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 18:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Sorry on Laslo Djere|Laslo Đere redirect. As I looked at MOS, per MOS example shouldn't the item under Dere actually be written as "Laslo Đere or Laslo Djere (born 1995), Serbian tennis player"? The Jim Carry footnote seems to fit this example perfectly. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) Yes, that looks good: it comes under that second version of the James Carrey example. Complicated! PamD 05:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) That seems a really poor example as the Carey/Carrey difference is irrelevant to the point being made. I might comment there when not on phone! PamD 05:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for setting me straight in reverting me. It made me look up the details in MOS. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

I am working on a project to publish pages for several independent magazines and am having difficulties with getting them published. I've done a bunch of research on periodical pages and it appears that there have been previous conversations around the difficulty for sources for publications/periodicals due to the nature of publishers being sources themselves and not writing about the competition. I believe the two drafts I have completed meet the guidelines in Wikipedia:Notability (periodicals) but I was hoping you might be able to take a look and give me your feedback. I noticed you're a librarian and I think these are important pages to be included on Wikipedia, so I am hoping there are some changes I can make to the pages to get them published.

Thanks for your time.

Stcksht (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm a long-retired academic librarian and know nothing about children's magazines, but the claims to notability for Honest History seem somewhat flaky: as far as I can see, rather than "won the national parenting product of the year award" it was awarded a paid-for seal-of-approval type award, one of many given each year, by a body on which Wikipedia has no article. Unimpressive. I think I've seen your message elsewhere, on someone else's talk page, which makes it look as if you are trying hard to get your articles accepted. I wonder what connection you have with the publishers, and what your "project" is? I hope you have read Wikipedia's

paid editing rules. I've tweaked your draft a little for clarity, but beyond that this is not my area of interest, sorry. PamD

22:46, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

On 5 May 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Percy Kelly (artist), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Percy Kelly hoarded his drawings and paintings until the end of his life, saying that his cottage would someday "upstage Beatrix Potter's home"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Percy Kelly (artist). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Percy Kelly (artist)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 12:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

On 12 May 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Wanda Szuman, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Wanda Szuman, a pioneer of special education in Poland, was also active in underground education? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Wanda Szuman. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Wanda Szuman), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 00:03, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello Pam! I wonder if you have (access to) a British style guide? I only have the Chicago, which is US obviously, though actually very good at pointing out obvious BrE differences. I was watching an episode of Only Connect the other day, in which one of the clues was "Sinking of the Titanic", the natural way to say it to my knowledge. But on the WP page, allegedly "in BrE", this is written without the article "... of Titanic". To me this sounds simply wrong, or more precisely American. There was some discussion about it, but crucially in discussion of style editors are not required to have native competence of the language (version) in question. I imagine that to Americans "of the Titanic" sounds at least a bit unnatural. (They do tend generally to drop articles: "May fourth", "play piano" etc.) Anyway, ideally a UK style guide might give guidance on this (or might not, of course, since it's simply perfectly ordinary English). Current the MOS says something like "the [Titanic]" is "not technically wrong", which probably means "not US style". And I think that generally the description of British English that the template generates is totally US-centric, sounding like "Hey, you know the Brits use some odd terms, but well..." Actually BrE and AmE have different teminology (obviously), and different syntax (the AmE "if you would have" for "if you had"), morphology ("dove" and "dived"), different article use and so on and so on. And if you want a simply horrendous set of articles, there's "Grade n" for n from 1 to (not "through", which is "technically wrong") 9 at least. Mustn't ramble. Brian Imaginatorium (talk) 06:19, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium My "go-to" style guide is that of The Guardian newspaper, for educated but contemporary written English. It doesn't opine on whether ships take "The", though it notes that trains do and locomotives don't! See https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-t

I think "the Titanic" is common UK usage - see

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/17/digital-scan-of-titanic-wreck-secrets-stories-to-tell, https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/sessions/sinking/ and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65398807 but then also https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/z8mpfg8/articles/zng8jty .. the BBC is inconsistent. In ordinary speech I think subject experts (geeks / bores) might say "sinking of Titanic" while most people would add "the". PamD 08:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium And I've just reminded myself what an interesting read that style guide is: I hadn't thought about the two suffixes -y and -ie before, plus all sorts of interesting snippets of info, confusions to avoid, etc. (Sitting in the sun in a Teignmouth hotel garden overlooking the sea as I type ... relaxed mood. PamD 08:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

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The redirect Tomodachi Life(Nintendo 3DS) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 25 § Tomodachi Life(Nintendo 3DS) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 05:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red June 2023, Vol 9, Iss 6, Nos 251, 252, 271, 272, 273 Online events: New: Alphabet run X, Y & Z | LGBTQ+ women | Wiki Loves Pride | Women in Music Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman See also: Women in Green: June 2023 GA Editathon event page Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Pride/2023 global campaign The Wikipedia Library: #1Lib1Ref - May 15th to June 5th Tip of the month: Looking for new red links? Keep an eye out for interesting and notable friends, family, or associates of your last article subject, and re-examine group photos for other women who may still need an article. Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 09:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Hi I'm just letting you know that at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#@PamD:_and_I'm_feeling_intentionally_stalked

I've opened a case about your recent comments and the way your constantly stalking me and finding faults I saw also your comment on South Parade and Witney on Wye on my talk page admitting you were looking to see what I was up to and sarcasm with the whole "hope your editing carefully", as if I'm gonna break the wiki.

I don't appreciate any of your comments and as a result. I've opened a case with the incident notices. If you wish to discuss further. Do so please on the link in this post.

Not on my talk page and I won't be replying on yours. I'm tired of being made to feel like a naughty editor all the time by yourself who is the only one to find faults then positives with me.

DragonofBatley (talk) 00:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Category:7th-millennium BC people has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
• is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Fatal Legacy, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Codicil.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

moving to usertalk as this has become entirely aside the point at AN/I

@GabberFlasted Please look again at your words: "please be honest as I've no choice but to take you at your word". That reads, to me, as suggesting that I may not be trustworthy (you'll have to take me at my word, for want of any other choice ... meaning, for want of something more trustworthy than what I say), and that I might not be honest unless specifically asked to be. What else can it mean? Perhaps it was a careless choice of words, but it seemed offensive. PamD 21:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

@PamD I suppose all I can say is that everyone uses language differently, and its unceasingly difficult to perfectly identify tone and intent in written word. Everyone makes little white lies, it's a fact of life, and it doesn't mean someone isn't trustworthy or that someone is inherently dishonest or deceptive. Only you know the last time you clicked on DoB's contributions and proving otherwise would be a frustrating and inexact undertaking. So I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and take their word (without reason not to) and in return I implore people to intentionally be honest, and avoid giving a white lie that might otherwise be an instinctive or knee-jerk reaction. I am sorry to have caused such offense, it was not my intention. I will reconsider my use of the phrasing going forward and I appreciate you voicing your objections. GabberFlasted (talk) 11:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I thought I was unfair on my page, I was irritated by his characterisation of me. I have ignored him but I looked in on your page earlier. I checked one of his creations and conclude I don't think anybody actually reads what he's written and it will continue to go unchecked. If that's what editors want so be it, I am walking away. I really do hope you're ok. Esemgee (talk) 22:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Esemgee Thanks. I had a busy day yesterday (volunteering, taking husband for hospital appt, choir rehearsal ... standard retired life stuff) and when I went on-wiki got distracted into following up a new editor who apparently hasn't got good enough English to be editing here. But today I must get a reply made. I've drafted at length (see my sandbox) but should probably keep it minimal to move on. I worry about the number of poor edits which no-one notices: you'd think a major novelist like Elizabeth Gaskell might be on some watch lists, but a multi-element good-faith bad edit went un-noticed for two years till I found it. (Too hard to give a diff while editing on phone). PamD 03:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

....is up - Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Exnihilox. Feel free to add your own observations about the editors if you have any. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

So, now, the big question. How far back to we wind back the page? Certainly the "Demography" section is a candidate! 10mmsocket (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@10mmsocket Wow, what a day you've all been having while I've been busy doing real life stuff. well done on the SPI. Life should be a little quieter from here on in. I've tweaked a few little things I noticed just now but I don't feel interested enough in Rochdale to want to put a lot of work into it. The editor we mustn't abbreviate might care to come back to it now that his sparring partner has departed. What a waste of energy it's all been. The comments were getting more and more deranged, total lack of understanding of how talk pages worked, replies bearing no relation to the points to which they seemed to be replying.

The Demography section (now we can safely call it that again without contradiction) mostly uses this as a ref, though it's really only an index page: the actual data is here, linked from the above as "Area profiles". I wonder when NOMIS is going to make data available in that format for parishes, BUAs etc for 2021? We have umpteen civil parishes which are crying out for a population update!

Enough for one day - packed with choir rehearsal and concert, collecting post-operative husband from hospital, trying to fit in part of local Arts festival, a regular weekly zoom call about The Archers, and the rest of non-wiki life. PamD 23:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

That bloody Rob Titchener and his brother! 10mmsocket (talk) 05:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@10mmsocket Discussed thoroughly (eg Miles is childless older brother: who gets to inherit their family farm?) PamD 05:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red June 2023, Vol 9, Iss 7, Nos 251, 252, 274, 275, 276 Online events: New: Women in Red's 8th anniversary | Alphabet run A & B | Sports Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman Tip of the month: Look out for contributors interested in writing about women and invite them to join Women in Red Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Hi Pam. I've just spotted your note on the talk page of the above article. The note says that a year or so ago, you wanted more pictures of the hoard. However, the article and its commonscat now appear to have quite a few pictures.

The exhibition of the hoard appears to be continuing at Jorvik until the coming autumn, so I could go there and photograph it if you still feel that it's necessary. I'm guessing that what you want is closeups so that we can see its detail and work out how it was made, and that's the sort of photography that I like to do (like this one: File:Roman Museum 103.jpg). i'm willing to have a go, if you still feel that it's important. Storye book (talk) 17:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@Storye book Thanks. Looking at them again I don't think my photos are as inadequate as I thought before. So please don't go to Jorvik specially to take more photos in response to my request - but I'd recommend a trip just to gaze at the wonderful Viking bling if you're at all interested in that sort of thing, it really looks fantastic now they've cleaned it up! PamD 21:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Pam. I agree, so I have removed the reqphoto template. Looking at all the photos in that category, I reckon I can see how the armrings were made, anyway. The plaited/twisted ones are wires drawn through holes in a plate, then stretched and twisted simultaneously together, between frequent annealings. That's how we would do it today, except that their blocks with holes in were probably rusty old iron, whereas ours are a tougher metal. The other armrings are maybe more interesting. The pattern is cold-stamped in repetitive fashion with a die, while the sheet of metal is still flat (it's too thick for repousse, and there are no indentations on the back, anyway). Then they've annealed it again and formed the whole thing on a block, which may have been wooden. Or they could have formed first, and then stamped - more fiddly, but I suppose possible if you are determined to keep your stamping perfect. I don't believe there's any engraving there. There's a lot of cut-up stuff, which makes me think the collection represented bullion for the owner, rather than stuff to wear. According to the Icelandic Sagas, the armrings were just a way for the warriors to carry their money. Well, the above is my opinion, anyway. Cheers. Storye book (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm really sorry, PamD, that you feel so upset about the discussions in connection with the editathon banners on the WIR talk page and on the the WiR template's entry. In particular, I hope my suggestions about more limited use of the existing banners is not the reason why you are considering leaving the project. As you have no doubt seen, I have been trying to oppose any changes in the hope we can continue using individual editathon banners as before. In my opinion, they have represented a strong attraction for so many of our contributors. Although I am no expert on technical issues, it seems to me the proposal from MSGJ is very sensible and could be a solution to keep everyone happy. To the best of my knowledge, we have not made wide use of the recognition feature which Headbomb is so keen to maintain. I am nevertheless reluctant to comment on his views as he has done so much to structure the entire system of our WiR talk page templates. On the basis of the most recent discussions, it seems as if we may be able to develop something similar to what MSGJ has suggested. I just thought I ought to drop a line here as I have followed with interest all the useful contributions you have made to WiR over the years and hope very much they will continue. Within the next few days we should be able to see whether the merge proposal has been accepted or rejected. And while I am here, perhaps you would be interested to see that The Nookster, one of our most recent members, comes from your part of the country. As she seems to share some of your interests, you might be able to help her along.--Ipigott (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@Ipigott Thanks for the note - I just got a bit exasperated by the whole thing, along with an element of guilt that my enthusiasm for finding intersections in editathons contributes to that 700 figure. The discussion at TfD seems full of people not listening to each other. I hope something can be sorted out - but no-one has answered my question, the paragraph above my "take my bat home"! If it doesn't matter for an article to have a banner for their 2nd or 3rd editathon, does it matter for them to have the first? Or do we only need a "WIR" banner?

And I'm also a bit stressed out with other stuff I ought to be getting on with (paperwork, decluttering, etc) ahead of hoping to move house. Plus there have been a few quite stressful Wiki episodes lately - I got dragged to ANI, and then stood on the sidelines while Rochdale went crazy (it's calmed down now: an editor got blocked indefinitely). Got to go - volunteering on the "Walks for all" today (supporting a stroll round local nature reserve, plus sociable coffee afterwards, for people with dementia and their carers): Real Life. PamD 08:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I think all of us have experienced difficult times on Wikipedia but fortunately there are so many positively minded people on WiR that most of us quickly recover. Enjoy your walk, cheer up and find some interesting woman/women to write about. I'm pretty sure the banners will survive.--Ipigott (talk) 08:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

As you mentioned it, I've been looking at Rochdale. I feel rather sorry for Exnihilox who, as a new contributor, was probably not aware of the dangers of copyright violation. As for the current version of the article, there are still many serious copyvios as can be seen from here. It looks to me as if someone now needs to re-express these items one by one or simply remove them. If you are not interested in handling this yourself, you might like to post something on the talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 09:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@Ipigott I wonder in which direction the copyvio goes! I might have a look at dates and Wayback Machine etc, but I suspect the "40 facts" may have been nicked from Wikipedia rather than the other way round. The new editor was very keen to throw their weight around, determined on their own choice of headings etc, aggressive in their talk page posts and edit summaries, and is probably no loss to the encyclopedia. They rubbed up against another problematic editor, and sparks flew. PamD 11:29, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

That might well be the explanation. Then we shouldn't be too worried about the present state of the article. I'm no expert on copyvios and have seldom contributed constructively to articles about the towns or cities in England although I am familiar with the Manchester area where my grandfather lived and I attended school in Lancashire. Unfortunately I no longer have many contacts in the UK as my closest friends and family have passed on.--Ipigott (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I am dropping by here to encourage you to take a wikibreak and deal with the other stuff. We will all still be here, being as lunatic a group as ever! I usually stop logging on for a couple of days when Wiki is more trouble than it is worth. Best. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC) PS - I have absolutely no idea what is going on with the templates, so am staying out of the fray. As someone (you?) noted in the comments, the issue is being called a big deal and not a big deal, so which is it???

@WomenArtistUpdates Thanks for the kind thoughts. I do spend too much time on-wiki, and there seem to have been a few silly spats recently ... ANI, Rochdale, templates. But it's more fun than decluttering or gardening! PamD 21:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Indeed...Wikipedia is far more tempting than decluttering. My plan going forward it to avoid accumulating anything. Easier to succeed at that. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello Pam. Gosh, you have a lot more perseverance than I do. I tend to get stuck in the mire of articles on bogus "uniquely Japanese" terms, like ikigai - actually I suppose Wikipedia is your ikigai...

Anyway, something that irritates me is that the article on

I found a copy of a 42-year-old book titled The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors (

ISBN 0-19-212970-8), which says Titanic (the), liner sunk by iceberg, 1912. Elsewhere, the same book says Hague (The), seat of government of Netherlands [...] (note not "the Netherlands"), from which I hazily infer that (the) within the former means that the person submitting a MS to OUP should normally use "the". "Guardian and Observer style guide: Q" (note not "The Guardian and The Observer style guide"), a far newer concoction, says Queen Mary 2 succeeded Queen Elizabeth 2 as Cunard’s flagship in 2004; QM2, QE2 after first mention. Personally I'm happy with either "the Titanic" or plain "Titanic", and with or without italics. For MoS simply to declare "ships do not get articles" (or indeed for it simply to declare "ships do get articles") seems sensible to me. (By contrast, if I were the despot of en:Wikipedia, I'd standardize to SI; thus the article Empire State Building would read The building has a roof height of 380m and stands a total of 443.2m tall, including its antenna, and so forth.) -- Hoary (talk

) 09:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

(Edit conflict; I don't disagree with the above, by the way)) If you want an argument in favour of Brits using "the" with ship names, I would suggest the need for clarity about the difference between informality and formality. For example SS Great Britain is called informally The Great Britain here, to differentiate from the country; and The Mary Rose to differentiate from the possibility that we are talking about some woman or other. However at sea we don't use an article, to prevent confusion about the exact ship name. My dive rescue boat was called Fly, after my gt gt grandfather's early 19th-century gaff cutter, and in his day "fly" could mean "go very fast". So to call my boat The Fly on radio channel 16 would confuse the coastguard, who may well have come across boats with The Fly written on the bow. On the other hand, there is the argument that the article has been used with boat names, at least informally, for a long time. When researching my gt gt grandfather's fleet, I found a reference to his codboat Upton (Upton was the surname of his grandfather's boyfriend, via whom gt gt grandfather inherited the money to buy the fleet, but that's another story). Anyway, among the shipping ledgers, I found a diary note saying "The Upton was lost". No doubt there are plenty of non-primary sources around, which contain similar evidence of long-term informal usage of the article with ship names. Just one more thing: I am not sure about this, but I seem to remember that in 19th-century literature about marine subjects, when ships spoke each other at sea, they would say e.g., "I am Aphrodite from Valetta en route to Venice", i.e. no article, because they used standard phrases for speaking each other. Good luck! Storye book (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello PamD,

The

New Page Patrol team is sending you this impromptu message to inform you of a steeply rising backlog of articles needing review. If you have any extra time to spare, please consider reviewing one or two articles each day to help lower the backlog. You can start reviewing by visiting Special:NewPagesFeed

. Thank you very much for your help.

Reminders:

• There is live chat with patrollers on the New Page Patrol Discord.
• Please add the project discussion page to your watchlist.
• To opt out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Sent by Zippybonzo using MediaWiki message delivery at 06:59, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at

I realised yesterday that I'd hit the qualifications to be a Vanguard Editor a while ago, so I updated my userbox accordingly.

Then today I noticed that my "total articles created in previous years" (excluding dab pages, surname pages, and redirects) at the start of 2023 was 967, and I've created a fair few articles this year. At a quick count, I reckon that

I see that Xtools reckons I've created 23,671 pages (with 2,289 since deleted), but a lot of those will be redirects, or talk pages created while stub-sorting or passing by, just to add a project banner or two, as well as many dab pages and surname pages! PamD 13:38, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Wow Pam that's an amazing total, congratulations. Wikipedia is fortunate to have such a prolific editor. Esemgee (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Esemgee Thanks. Many of my creations are just solid little stubs, but with links to good sources to help the reader find out more, or help another editor expand the article - and with all appropriate incoming redirects from variations of the title, and a surname list entry (or redirect if unique) for any biography. PamD 13:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello.

Fair enough: I thought this was very likely to be sourceable from the Russian sources so

WP:IARed. But in future please tag such material rather than removing it from the encyclopedia, as being more likely to improve it. (For any TPWs, this relates to Permyak Salty Ears which is on my watchlist after I stub-sorted it ten years ago.) PamD

07:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red 8th Anniversary

	Women in Red 8th Anniversary
	In July 2015 around 15.5% of the English Wikipedia's biographies were about women. As of July 2023, 19.61% of the English Wikipedia's biographies are about women. That's a lot of biographies created in the effort to close the gender gap. Happy 8th Anniversary! Join us for some virtual cake and add comments or memories and please keep on editing to close the gap!

--Lajmmoore (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes
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• Suggestion improvements
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Read the full newsletter

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --11:22, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

	Women in Red 8th Anniversary
	A piece of cake for you! Thank you for participating.

WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 15:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm quite honoured to be given honorary Sudanese identity :) (if I understood your comment correctly), but to avoid any concerns about cultural appropriation (which I think really should be called "cultural misappropriation" to distinguish it from the normal mingling of cultures), my only link with Sudan is through editing Wikipedia pages. In editing Ethiopia-related pages, I've also been awarded Tigrayan honorary identity, although in that case the intent was to assert my supposedly pro-Tigrayan bias. You could write "Sudanese-page editor" or "Sudanese-topic editor" or something like that if you want to bypass the identity question in a situation like this another time. :) Boud (talk) 14:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Boud Ah, I made an incorrect assumption there! Duly corrected. Thanks. PamD 16:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi PamD! As you and I had good conversations about how to categorise Barum Woman and similar ancient/prehistoric women, I thought you might find this interesting news which you might want to write an article about: Caroline Davies (27 July 2023). "Isles of Scilly remains are iron age female warrior, scientists say". the Guardian. Retrieved 27 July 2023. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw Thanks for the reminder:I heard a news item about her this morning, and wondered whether she was already in en.wiki! Will follow it up. PamD 12:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Hah, that's great! I couldn't find an article on her, but that could be because I don't know what to look for. After all, it's only since today that we know it's a woman, so there won't yet be a

WP:COMMONNAME for her like "Bryher Woman" (which I would think is a nice one, compared to Barum Woman, Minnesota Woman etc.). Historic England

states that The research findings are published today in 'The Journal of Archaeological Science Reports' and show the individual was female. Looks like this is it:

S. Mays, G. Parker, C. Johns, S. Stark, A.J. Young, D. Reich, J. Buikstra, K. Sawyer, K. Hale "Sex identification of a Late Iron Age sword and mirror cist burial from Hillside Farm, Bryher, Isles of Scilly, England". The Journal of Archaeological Science Reports: 1–10. 27 July 2023.

doi:10.1016/j.jasrep.2023.104099

. ISSN 2352-409X.

To my pleasant surprise, the phrase Bryher woman (lowercase "w") does show up 4 times in the paper itself, so I guess it would be a good article title. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

PS: 'G. Parker' and 'S. Stark' are apparently cited as Dr Glendon Parker and Dr Sarah Stark by The Guardian and Historic England, which is really cool. I'm reading the whole paper now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Well I've created a solid little start-level article at Bryher Woman with good sources. Will now digress and create Isles of Scilly Museum. Was supposed to be spending the afternoon getting stuck in to decluttering and packing as we've just exchanged contracts on a house move! PamD 16:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks so much! I knew you'd probably like to write it, so I thought I'd tell you about it and give you the honour of creating it. And congrats and good luck on the move! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red August 2023, Vol 9, Iss 8, Nos 251, 252, 277, 278, 279, 280 Online events: New: Alphabet run C & D | Indigenous women | Film and stage | Geofocus: Arab League Continuing: Peace and Diplomacy (year-long initiative) | #1day1woman See also: Wikimania 2023 will be held in Singapore, 16–19 August, and will be facilitated by the affiliates in the ESEAP (East/South East/Asia/Pacific) region. Tip of the month: Read the essay Determining Native American and Indigenous Canadian identities to understand the criteria for status as Native American or Indigenous Canadian. Other ways to participate: Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help us plan future events. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

For talk page watchers: See Audrey Fildes and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Audrey Fildes PamD 14:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello PamD, I am Paul, Audrey's son. I saw your "keep" recommendation and thought to send you a note. The lack of a Globe and Mail Obit noted by AB is down to me. I never submitted one and I would have been the one to do so. My mother died suddenly and it was a shock. I'm not sure if additional information is useful, but here are three recollections. 1. Audrey's Grandfather Sir William Goscombe-John did a bronze bust of her "Audrey, A Young Actress" which I believe to be in the Goscombe-John collection at Cardiff Castle. I have a photo in a box I could dig out. 2. Audrey was on the cover of British Vogue in the early 1950's. Sadly I don't have a copy. 3. Alec Guinness, with whom Audrey appeared in "Kind Hearts and Coronets" mentions her briefly in his autobiography "Blessings in Disguise." I realise Audrey is now a minor figure, but I would like to see her Wikipedia entry continue. Thanks for putting the time in to support keeping the entry. Paul SonsPaulandNicholas (talk) 12:09, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@SonsPaulandNicholas Well, as you can see, I've done what I can with your information - and spent far too much of my life on this as I'm moving house in a week and ought to be decluttering and packing but have leapt at an excuse to play around with Wikipedia instead. It's fascinating that Miss Design's questions are so similar to William Morris's "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful" (or is that Ruskin? - I know it gets misattributed to the other one, either way), as your Mother went on to be a member of the WM Soc. PamD 14:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm logging out for a while : too much to do outside Wikipedia. I'll be back. PamD 09:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @PamD. Could you have a look at my comments for you here: Talk:MACIF (disambiguation)#MACIF insurance company as primary topic

PS: I never know if I should post on someone's page or directly in the talk page. simon (talk) 20:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

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--Victuallers (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

We have lost an intelligent, collegial, and hugely energetic editor with whom it was a pleasure to interact. The encyclopedia will be a poorer place, and less well categorised, without her. PamD 03:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi PamD.

I saw your question.

I don't know if I can thread in there somewhere, so I thought I'd respond to your question here, if that's ok with you.

There are those who seem to really really want a set number to these things. And while I understand that want, it's never worked and - to my eye at least - trying to "count" some number, has seemingly continued to cause disruption over years at CfD.

I think the question of asking "how many", is in and of itself a flawed question. And has been pretty much ever since the text was added. It's been re-written many times, but it still remains contentious. I just don't think something like that is really a "guideline", as I just don't think it really has "consensus".

I think the one place that most may agree is that this is something that varies by topic and implementation. Which, I think, is the source of the wording "part of an overall tree" (or however it's phrased at this given moment). But the phrasing of "small" in "smallcat", just seems to get in the way of that.

I think things like this are why we have discussions at CfD, and that we should be looking at categories and category trees based upon their merits and not merely upon a "count". That was the idea when Radiant! added the word "handful", and I changed that to "a few" back in 2006. But it's never really worked.

So as of right now, while I would welcome discussion on a replacement (and there are several people looking at this, I think), but I'm thinking that, whether there is a replacement or not, the current guideline should go.

I tried to more fully explain in these comments here. So maybe those may help as well. I really am hoping that we can hear from people about this. Because how things are now, is - in my estimation - just going to perpetuate more problems. And I do not want to see that.

Anyway, I sincerely welcome your thoughts. - jc37 18:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

There is a proposal under consideration which would disallow the creation of new categories, even in existing hierarchies, unless they have at least "n" (perhaps 5) members. Personally I think this is a dreadful idea. Recent categories I have created include:

• Category:Chancellors of Walter Sisulu University
• Category:Jamaican short story collections
• Category:Museums in the Outer Hebrides
• Category:Nigerien architects
• Category:University of Borås alumni

In each case fitting neatly into an existing hierarchy of similar categories for other countries, districts, or universities.

If we are not allowed to create such a category for its first member, I don't see when it will be created: am I expected to trawl through a list of all African architects to see if I can find five Nigeriens (not Nigerians) before creating the category? The discussion is at Wikipedia:Merge for now and the discussion at User_talk:Marcocapelle#A_question clarifies that the intention would indeed be to forbid the creation of those categories. PamD 07:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

		The Categorisation Barnstar
		Thanks for sharing your thoughtful input on categorization and giving me a new perspective to consider! RevelationDirect (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes
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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --14:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

https://www.motorsportuk.org/john-quenby-1941-2023/ 2A02:586:CC37:59BD:75E5:DB29:652C:1C89 (talk) 09:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

That does not say when he died. It says when Motorsport UK published a notice that it had heard of his death. See the linked-in message discussed at Talk:John Quenby. PamD 11:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

On 20 September 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Julia Masli, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that clown Julia Masli (pictured) found success by shaking hands with audience members using her feet? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Julia Masli. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Julia Masli), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 00:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 20,244 views (1,687.0 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of September 2023 – nice work!

In response to this edit. Please read

WP:ELYES #3. PamD

05:16, 21 September 2023 (UTC)