Talk:COVID-19 pandemic

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    Semi-protected anti-vandalism request on 3 March 2020

    • NOTE from author of plots: Boud and others. I spend an hour each day updating the semi-log plots. The Chinese data are easy. I only need to translate http://www.nhc.gov.cn/xcs/yqtb/list_gzbd.shtml And their errors are few. Even they sometimes correct the previous days numbers! The world data are a nightmare. My only way of matching daily BNO news counts (https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/) is to track each country and check that the totals match the BNO numbers. BNO updates in real time - they don't give a daily total - and sometimes BNO correct numbers reported a day or two in the past. It's a nightmare! Trends in real time data comparing Hubei, rest-of-China and ROW matter. For example, they already show daily cases in ROW dominate those in China. They will soon show daily deaths in ROW dominate China. In late March they are likely to show TOTAL cases and deaths in ROW dominate China. The detailed country comparisons, which I have but don't plot, are useful to see the regional spread of disease. In the real world I am a biostatistician analysing coronavirus survival and recovery and offering advice about policy to save peoples lives - lots of people. I CANNOT afford the time to undo repeated vandalism of the semi-log plots. I'll repeat this in other parts of the discussion section so it's clear. This "hobby" takes time away from saving lives.Galerita (talk) 00:06, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Galerita what is the ask here? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Doc James. The semi-log graphs have been edited out on two occasions and I have had to manually restore them. I'm not a proficient Wikipedia editor so restoring what I see as vandalism is is painstaking. Undo doesn't work because other changes have been made in the mean time. The semi-log plots are time consuming to prepare, well at least the data collection is, taking a bit over an hour a day. This is because the Rest-of-the-World data comes in piecemeal and has to be carefully checked and rechecked by country to identify discrepancies. So I'm asking that it not be so easy to edit out the work I have contributed. Is there some setting that forces a discussion before a single editor arbitrarily removes something.Galerita (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Galerita there is no simple way. Will keep an eye on it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Doc James Thanks Galerita (talk) 01:35, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:BRD. When they do that, it doesn't mean they're vandalising, at all. There are vandals, but many removing your graphs including myself previously, aren't, they just want the content to be questioned again. Rest assured many editors such as Doc James and myself will continue to ensure that appropriate graphs that follow the policies particularly around consensus are included - at the moment, the consensus is your graphs, which is great. --Almaty (talk) 05:19, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Informative graphs

    Hi, I have proposal to include links to following graphs:

    1. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-deaths-covid-19-who?yScale=log&time=2..51&country=Worldwide+IRN+ITA+KOR+CHN

    2. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-cases-covid-19-who?yScale=log&time=1..50&country=CHN+IRN+ITA+KOR+Worldwide

    They are very informative, at least to me.

    Licenense is https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.139.109.2 (talk) 07:54, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I support replacing the current graphs with this one. I think the format is much more standard and also it is more readable to the general reader. Can just copy it and attribute with their license, avoiding all concerns about
    WP:OR --Almaty (talk) 07:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    First paragraph which says :- "Simultaneously, the WHO stated that this is the first known pandemic that can be controlled" is stated wrong. The real statement from WHO from the hyperlink attached to it is :-And we have never before seen a pandemic that can be controlled, at the same time. There is a difference , the present published statement says that it can be cured whereas statements from WHO were just general idea of past Akshat Bhardwaj 2265 (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Addressed, I hope, below --Almaty (talk) 10:23, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Inconsistency in number of Germany cases shown here and RKI

    Numbers are completely off from official RKI stats? Is there a reason why the numbers of worldometer (which do not even provide a source) are more credible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.216.206.21 (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    There seem to be inconsistencies even in the offical RKI data (no increase in NRW for 3 days???). But that shouldn't be a reason to use unofficial numbers such as worldometer or even some funky local newspapers. None of them give proper reference to their primary source of information - it's a huge mess. The issue was discussed a bit earlier - proposition is on the table to limit statistics strictly to official ressources and to restrict edit access to the statistics table to admins only - sounds good to me. Semiliki (talk) 17:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Raise the Philippines cases to 98, because recently, the news said. WIBWBP (talk) 10:38, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Isn't official ministry sources are not enough? Why are admins are using and mentioning

    Times of India
    source? Kalpesh Manna 2002 (talk) 15:22, 14 March 2020 (UTC) Kalpesh Manna]][reply]

    Strongly support stopping using worldometer. If people want to update, I trust an even easier website to navigate, called Our World in Data, I've placed a RfC, as I trust this website, no one can point to an error on it, ever, and it is all CC-BY-SA 4.0 - gold mine. --Almaty (talk) 16:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Should we move the pandemic data table upwards in the article?

    I understand that it falls under the subheading "epidemiology" but the table is leaving a huge, empty space at the bottom of that section because of it. What do you guys think? Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 06:12, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    it is fine for now in its current place, due to how the article is structured, thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's still creating a huge, empty space. The table is very big. Are there other ways of handling this? Bondegezou (talk) 10:07, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    This depends on the browser used. Safari for me had a huge empty space, which is one of the reasons why I removed the animated gif. It doesn't now, but chrome does. Bit of an issue. --Almaty (talk) 12:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Need to address the elephant in the room in introduction

    I tried today to add "which may be deadlier than common cold outbreaks[original research]". I know it's a common point of view that we certainly can't sweep on the carpet anymore. Governments are closing schools and what not under the assumption that this is something else then a common flu. We should mention in the lead why this virus is notable. I'm fully aware that we have no solid evidence in a way or the other, but there are way to convey this in a succinct way in the lead. Iluvalar (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Iluvalar, I agree with you, but we'll have to find the sources that support that assertion. Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 04:35, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The 3-4% "mortality rate," while cited, is not accurate. No one has mentioned that the potential under-reporting of mild cases, or those who do not seek medical care, is inflating the rate. Should change this to crude mortality rate, because that's what it is currently. There is no official mortality rate/ratio yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.81.166.225 (talk) 10:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The "Elephant in the Room" is the fact that China's numbers are pure fabrication. And any "reliable source" that bases their analysis on numbers coming out of China, which includes the WHO, the CDC and the Main Stream Media, is not reliable. I know why they are doing it, pure politics. Same goes for Iran. I've been analyzing this by excluding China and Iran, and it paints a totally different picture.DrHenley (talk) 05:41, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There are issues around correctly determining the mortality rate, which we should discuss in the text, but we should report what good citations are saying, as well as potential issues with the numbers. One issue is the possible under-reporting of mild cases. I would like to see much more on both that and the under-reporting of all cases.
    To go off on a tangent, this article remains obsessed with giving the number of reported cases when we know these are not the actual number of cases (for a variety of reasons, many unavoidable). We need to make clear that these numbers are not some gospel truth and that reliable sources are certain they're under-reporting. Bondegezou (talk) 10:40, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    All the nonsense about "mortality rates" and ill defined "fatality rates" is a real shame. I have tried many times to have these problems corrected because I believe Wikipedia should have much better quality standards/control. First, it should be made VERY clear that mortality rates are one thing and fatality rates are another e.g. the "2%" of the 1918 Spanish Flu is a mortality rate and should not (can not) be compared to fatality rates. Second, if this wikipedia article wants to talk about fatality ratios with graphs and figues etc... it must CLEARLY STATE what it means by "crude" fatality ratio. I prefer to use the term "Confirmed Case Fatality Ratio" as opposed to the classic CFR e.g. the CFR for the seasonal flu is typically 0.1% but if you calculate the CONFIRMED case fatality ratio (as is obviously and inevitably done for covid-19) then you end up with 7-8% (using CDC data for this years flu in the US). TheRightKindOfDoctor (talk) 12:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @
    mortality ratio. Feel free to correct further, but preferably such stuff should be linked to existing articles. If none exists, a section within the existing relevant article or a new standalone article can be created. Brandmeistertalk 18:07, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Here is a fun bit of history : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:2009-2010_flu_pandemic_table&oldid=315947664 . The H1N1 flu (which is now seasonal) CFR was over 1% using the same technique.
    So we seem to agree here to add a mention of the death rate in the lead ? Iluvalar (talk) 16:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Main table all wrong

    The table is presenting a false (and bleak) picture of the virus. You can't even correct it! For example, in New Zealand, there are 5 (five) cases, and most have recovered. The table shows no recoveries. The first person recovered on 1st Mar [1]. I mean, that's almost two weeks ago!! There are references for the others too, but I can't be bothered supplying them. I know they reported on the others, for example case 2 of the 5, a woman, is definitely recovered also. I'm sure that most if not all the other countries are wrong too. Please someone supplying this table - correct it, or remove it! It is wrong wrong wrong. Thank you. Wallie (talk) 09:31, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The
    WHO reported yesterday no recoveries for New Zealand. Sun Creator(talk) 10:35, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    The source you gave said "on the mend" which does not mean fully recovered. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Been added anyway, without source so far. Sun Creator(talk) 12:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    What part of "New Zealand coronavirus patient recovers but concern about pandemic spreads" is unclear? The second case has been released and that is documented also. It is plain silly to give references to every single case. As stated, that is over 200,000 references. Wallie (talk) 12:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Another aspect of the table I find odd is the discrepancy between the number of countries listed at the top and the actual number by count. At the present moment the summary at the top says 132 countries/territories. An actual count comes to 125. Where are the other 7 countries or territories? If they are included in a mother country (e.g. French Guiana in France), then they should not be counted separately as a country. Or if they are counted then they should be listed separately. Lack of accuracy/clarity on this verifiable point leads to doubt about the other less readily verifiable figures. In addition, there is a disconnect between the table and the map. The map shows at least 3 countries affected which are not in the table: Guinea, Sudan, and Cayman Islands. Ptilinopus (talk) 14:56, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The table discrepancy continues. At this time the total countries at the top of table totals says 145 countries. An actual count of countries in the table is 136 plus 1 ship. Where are the missing 8? Ptilinopus (talk) 02:14, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Again. Actual count of countries on the table is 137. The total at the top summary has jumped to 150! The source seems to be the dubious Worldometer. How about some consistency?! Incidentally there are 3 countries on the list that were not there 4 hours ago (Rwanda, Namibia, Antigua & Barbuda) - and 3 that have disappeared (since the count remains 137). I notice that Aruba and Curaçao have been deleted - though they are separate countries, equal to the Netherlands. Even so, their details have not been included with the Netherlands. I see Puerto Rico is listed though it much more part of the US than Aruba etc are of the Netherlands! I note the disappearance of Jersey and Guernsey too - even though they are not part of the United Kingdom. Nor have their data been added to that of the UK. Can we have consistency please? Ptilinopus (talk) 12:23, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Before you go and denigrate Worldometer, maybe you should compare the countries and find out why there are more in Worldometer than in the main table. Cayman Islands, for example is reported in Worldometer, but not in the main table. It is an autonomous British Overseas Territory, which definitely makes it a "country or territory." And yes, Caymen Islands has a case, as reported in the Miami Herald[1].DrHenley (talk) 02:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I had gone and separated Puerto Rico because I thought I had seen it separated on this site but as of March 15, 2020 Puerto Rico has been deleted and re-included with the US count on Wikipedia. I'm not sure why a Wikipedian has done that. Check out the table... There must be a method to the wikipedians madness. Maybe it's okay for Puerto Rico to be included with the US count.Check this out... https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0jYwvytu-1e4jh6ujShnxAjxytKn8kgypxeW9s5eE5Ar88AjJlDGiJBmc#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Potential changes to the maps

    No. of cases/Cases per capita or Deaths per capita?

    The first map in the infobox, showing total cases per country
    File:March14 cases per-capita-COVID-19.png
    The second map in the infobox, showing cases per capita

    As more European countries are running out of tests, and both the UK and especially the US have had low testing rates from the start — counting cases is likely to poorly reflect the state of the pandemic. However, deaths are likely to be much more accurate, both at the aggregate level and the per capita level. Should we shift at least one of these maps to cover deaths or deaths per capita?

    Carl Fredrik talk 11:50, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    It would be a nice map to have but I don't see a need to replace either of the maps there now. Adding a third map to show deaths per-capita would be preferable to replacing one of the existing maps.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 14:49, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Both absolute (total deaths) and relative (deaths per capita) are useful in my opinion, and indeed better than "cases" for which the numbers are completely unreliable. The advantage of the relative map is that countries of different sizes can be compared more easily (and to judge which countries are proportionally more affected). I think it would be a good idea to show both maps (but perhaps not in the lead). Ideally, it would also be nice for the larger countries (US/China) to have the data displayed per province/state in this worldmap . Voorlandt (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think we should include any death calculations or per capita calculations as while these may seem simple, they are not obvious or correct in their interpretation. The reason for this is that there is a massive lag in this outbreak especially, and due to unreliability of reported figures (undue comparison will be made against disparate health care systems). Both will lead people to me more alarmed or reassured than they should be. In terms of policy this violates
    WP:CALC specifically. --Almaty (talk) 08:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I'm not sure I follow."Due to unreliability of reported figures" we should only show the aggregate reported figures? That doesn't really follow especially when the reported figures are those currently listed on the page's chart, most sourced from the WHO. With regard to an alleged "massive lag" (in reported figures or virus symptom onset(?)) and that per-capita maps of deaths or rates of infected persons will "lead people to me more alarmed or reassured than they should be." I don't think it's up to Wikipedia editors to decide what facts from reliable sources Wikipedia readers should and should not be exposed to and certainly not on the grounds that it could makes some of them alarmed. The data here comes from the WHO and World Bank's population estimate figures for 2018.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 09:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    We should only show the raw reported figures, from the WHO. I don't see them anywhere dividing it from the world bank population estimate from 2018, that is
    WP:OR. That doesn't hide anything, it just prevents us from doing a calculation that the reliable source is not doing. --Almaty (talk) 09:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Ok, Almaty's opinion is clear. Almaty would like to "only show the raw reported figures, from the WHO". Voorlandt and myself disagree with Almaty. Would anyone else like to share their thoughts?Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 10:25, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that per capita statistics should be published in addition to totals. The "per number of people" statistics is routinely published in Wikipedia for occurences of other diseases. The only argument I see provided by Almaty against it is that it would alarm people. I don't see anything wrong with people being alarmed by alarming statistics. Don't see any explanation for Almaty's argument regarding why "per capita statistics" is misleading. That somebody else such as WHO does not provide it does not mean that it is misleading.Roman (talk) 15:44, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes but that isn't a clear summary of why. Its not because I only trust the WHO, or I'm a censor (far from it, the opposite), its because per
    WP:CALC there is not clear current consensus that dividing these figures is a meaningful interpretation of the source. The calculation is simple, but they don't do it, because the answer is misleading. --Almaty (talk) 10:29, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Yes, we need per capita. I see no violation of
    WP:CALC ("Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. [...]"): the manner of calculation is super straightforward. (As an aside, I see no undue alarm; I only see undue complacency.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:32, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Which ever map is chosen, it's probably best they don't look like the player wiped out entire nations in Plague Inc. 73.155.111.138 (talk) 08:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Daily new cases

    The daily new cases of COVID-19 on March 13

    I propose as a second map that we simply use this map, as it gives more relevant information, does not involve calculations, and it will be able to be updated very easily based on the link provided. --Almaty (talk) 13:05, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I disagree that that Almaty's map "gives more relevant information" than the per-capita infection rate. I think knowing how many people on average in a country are infected with a virus is very relevant information.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 13:25, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I would say that the per capita will be relevant information in a few weeks, but pertinently when they are published by reliable sources. Additionally the map of per capita has a caption that we cannot hope to keep current. --Almaty (talk) 13:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Why will per capita be relevant information in a few weeks and not today?As for keeping the map current there are many maps on Wikipedia that regularly need to be updated and I have updated this one twice already over the past few days.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I rescind comments in relation to undue concern or alarm. I simply don't think that this map is verifiable. In order for it to remain verifiable we have three options IMO.

    1. Only use raw figures from the WHO
    2. Use another source that is making maps that we consider to be reliable.
    3. Waiting until any WP:MEDRS compatible source at least publishes a table showing per capita case rates. --Almaty (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC) ALASKA with 500 is Strange, very ![reply]

    Per capita data vs. totals by country

    By and large, I much prefer the per capita map. Especially as the virus continues to spread, the totals map is increasingly becoming just a variation on a world population map. It makes no sense to display prominently a map where, if Exampleistan suddenly splits into two countries tomorrow, the outbreak would suddenly show up as half as bad there. The one redeeming factor of that map is that it appropriately shows how severe the outbreak has been in China, whereas the per capita map does not. Fortunately, there's a solution to that: splitting up the data for China by province. That way, Hubei will presumably show up as appropriately severe. The main downside of this approach is that some readers might ask why China gets more granular data than other countries, but I think most won't have a problem (and if the data does exist for generating a world map of prevalence by zip code or some other smaller unit and we could turn it into a map, that would of course be brilliant). Sdkb (talk) 06:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    See also: commons:File_talk:March14_cases_per-capita-COVID-19.png#Colouring_seems_misleading_for_China. Sdkb (talk) 06:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Now there are 180 cases in brasil, but in the main table it dropped from 151 to 121 LGCR (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Data sources for maps

    Are coronavirus maps, should we use Our World in Data as a reliable attributable source, or should we be making calculations not yet published in reliable sources? --Almaty (talk) 14:06, 14 March 2020 (UTC)I removed the aggregate new cases map which was included in this history section of the page so that we can discuss it first. There are two major issues with the map. The data does not come from the WHO but from a third-party charity website called "Our World In Data"..."a project of the Global Change Data Lab, a registered charity in England and Wales (Charity Number 1186433)." The map claims that there were 0 new cases on March 13th in Iceland, Norway, Belgium, Portugal, Greece, and a few dozen other countries and that's just inaccurate.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The reason is I have not seen it published in any reliable source with WHO data, to keep the dispute simple. --Almaty (talk) 14:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It doesn't claim that, it claims that there were between 0 and 10. --Almaty (talk) 13:50, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    They claim the data does come from the WHO. Are you able to point to any specific inconsistency in the reliability of this source? --Almaty (talk) 13:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Also they aren't just a charity researchers at University of Oxford, who are the scientific editors of the website content. I strongly propose that unless anyone can point to how any of the data is inaccurate, that we use it. The main reason is because myself and other editors aren't able to easily verify the content of the maps. This will worsen as the outbreak progresses. --Almaty (talk) 13:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, Those countries reported dozens if not hundreds of new cases between 12 march and 13 March. That's evident in
    the table's history page. Belgium for example went from 399 to 559. The map you added shows Belgium with 0-10 cases.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 15:53, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Per capita is absolutely relevant today, as it was a week ago and a month ago. Bed capacity would usually exist per capita, so case totals per capita is very indicative of severity. Furthermore, per capita achieves coloring invariance upon region merge: it is not so badly sensitive to choice of granularity of regions. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If it is a indicative of severity why can't I see it in a
    WP:MEDRS source using WHO data to date? Ive done quite a search to come up with this current opinion. --Almaty (talk) 14:57, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Per capita is at worldometers.info; search for "Tot Cases/1M pop". I don't know about
    WP:CALC applies, we should be fine. ---Dan Polansky (talk) 15:03, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    User @
    WP:CALC is not being fully interpreted and with divisions in particular these may not be "obvious and correct". --Almaty (talk) 15:56, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Worldometer fails
    WP:MEDRS so severely, that even its updaters have lost faith in it, it appears --Almaty (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Is the above original research or can you support the above claim with reliable sources? --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:20, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes User:Dan Polansky I can support that claim with worldometers own website The live counters show the real-time estimate as computed by our proprietary algorithm, which processes the latest data and projections provided by the most reputable organizations and statistical offices in the world. This is not peer reviewed, is an estimate, is not a study, is not even thought to be verifiable or correct by its publisher. ---Almaty (talk) 00:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, your claim is an original observation gained by looking at worldometers.info and using your brain; the claim "worldometers.info is unreliable" is not traced to a reliable source. Of course, your reasoning is very plausible, and one has to take worldometers.info with grain of salt, but is the grain larger than that for WHO data? But my main point is on the meta-level and it stays: you require me to trace the obvious to a reliable source while you do not require yourself to trace the obvious to a reliable source. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:06, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Dan Polansky I dont want to argue, but we all have to use reliable sources. I would love to insert things that were my original research and i've tried to before, but we cant. The pillars of wikipedia apply. --Almaty (talk) 10:22, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Per
    WP:CALC, we can do certain calculation ourselves; Almaty claims we can't. Let the reader read this very discussion alone; I see not a single person agreeing with Almaty, who sets unreasonable high standards on what should be common sense but uncritically defers to WHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Ok, maybe we can't trust the maps there, probably a data quirk if their tables are correct. But can we make maps like it - I want to use their "no data", and I truly think that a map with the number of new cases is more important at this stage, than per capita cases. My opinion of this will change, when anyone can show me a
    WP:MEDRS source that is showing charts with per capita cases. I can't find one --Almaty (talk) 17:03, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I find it obvious that per capita is super useful (total cases, active cases, daily new cases, daily deaths, all per capita), and to support the notion, I mentioned that bed capacities would usually be maintained per capita in a country. I do not have
    WP:MEDRS sources to support what I just said and what I consider to be obvious reasoning. Maybe someone knows where to find such sources. If WP:MEDRS sources do not report per capita, maybe they should wake up from their dogmatic dream and start reporting also per capita right now, before it is too late. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:20, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I'd go so far as to say that the use of the current graphic is highly misleading. Some Europeans have remarked at the Danish government's shutdown when comparing it to the apparent inaction in France or the UK, whereas the reason becomes instantly clear if you consider that the size of population matters a great deal. The only
    truly objective measure that can be used is the per capita figure. -- Ohc ¡digame! 17:28, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Let me add that the name of the game is bed capacities, respirators, breathing machines and such. If there were no risk of exhausting these, it would be kind of acceptable to give up all flatten-the-curve measures, maybe not entirely acceptable, but kind of. And these capacities, the name of the game, the resource nummero uno that you can run out of, is usually maintained on a per capita basis. And the resource does not increase exponentially at 20% per day rate, only the demand for that resource does so increase. Per capita is super meaningful; maybe some has the WP:MEDRS paperwork to support that claim; I supplied the substantive arguments. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I expect that they are doing this in unpublished government data, of course. But that doesn't help our encyclopaedia. Can you even point to a table, let alone a graph or a chart or map that shows per capita? that isn't worldometer? I note that for the second time in 24 hours this has been removed due to errors, once due to the Mediawiki doing it. Its an exceedingly big job, and one I think we need to delegate to the likes of Our World In Data (where their data is verifiable). --Almaty (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Here are links to the data sources for the map. This is certainly not "unpublished government data." Many news websites have map and visualization pages up and running now. There are plenty of examples of per-capita maps out there and the data for making these is widely available at places like: FT[2] and John Hopkins [3]. The Hill even published a list of top map sites[4]Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 10:25, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Monopoly31121993 I dont trust you to be able to keep up with the volume of data that will be coming through in the next few weeks, to be frank. Its not like I dont think you've done a good job so far. Its just that maps will become completely unverifiable --Almaty (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Does Almaty concede now that there are reliable sources publishing cases per capita? That would be a start. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not in this for the argument, trust me, just for verifiability. --Almaty (talk) 11:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    (outdent) So does Almaty concede the point that has been demonstrated? There cannot be any rational argument if one party refutes to play the argument game fairly. Almaty, do you now agree that "there are reliable sources publishing cases per capita?" --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Guys, I wrote a program that can read a dataset and generate an svg map. [5]. It currently fetches data from John Hopkins University, but the dataset doesn't have every country/territory and is updated daily, not as frequent as the current map. I say we generate the maps using a community-maintained list. Ythlev (talk) 11:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Excellent, makes perfect sense. Let the script fetch data from locations in Wikipedia, and it is then the business of Wikipedia editors to update those locations to reflect reliable sources. Is
    Template:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic data good for the purpose? It should be easy to extract the data from there using Python. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I don't know how though. I only know how to fetch from pages with data only. Ythlev (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, maybe I'll have a look. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:12, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    no I’m afraid that I am still yet to see medrs sources showing per capita statistics. And it’s cos they can’t, so we can’t. —49.179.25.69 (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it is possible with Wikidata. Ythlev (talk) 12:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Here's a very quickly written grabber that returns a dictionary where the countries are the keys and the values are list of column values as integers (no work of beauty, but it works and is here right now): 

    def grabFromTemplate():
   import urllib, re
   url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_data"
   allLines = []
   for line in urllib.urlopen(url):
     allLines.append(line.rstrip())
   allLines = " ".join(allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("^.*jquery-tablesorter", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("</table.*", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("<(th|td)[^>]*>", r"<td>", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("</?(span|img|a|sup)[^>]*>", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("</(th|td|tr)[^>]*>", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("&#91.*?&#93", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub(",", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("<small>.*?</small>;?", "", allLines)
   allLines = re.sub("</?i>", "", allLines)

   outData = {}
   rows = allLines.split("<tr> ")
   for row in rows:
     try:
       cols = row.split("<td>")
       cols.pop(0)
       cols.pop(0)
       country = cols.pop(0)
       cols = cols[0:3]
       cols = [int(col) for col in cols]
     except:
       continue
     outData[country] = cols
   #for key, value in outData.items():
   #  print key, value
   return outData

    --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:53, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Okay, with a few modifications, it worked. I can incorporate it now. Ythlev (talk) 13:19, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of work is matching those country names to ISO country codes used to colour the map. Ythlev (talk) 13:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Dan Polansky: It's done: [6]. Your code has some bugs though. It does not work for Netherlands for some reason. Ythlev (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ythlev: It fails for Netherlands since Netherlands has "–" in the 3rd column instead of zero. I don't know what "–" means, or else I could just tweak the script to replace it with zero or maybe place None in the list instead of int. Did you also create a per capita map on the world level? File:COVID-19_Outbreak_World_Map.svg is not per capita. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No. Such a map is being question now. Ythlev (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Cumulative cases vs peak active cases

    If the first map is meant to be more directly sourced, the second should be more reflective of impact. Taking into account the health care systems and "flattening the curve", the second map should be peak active cases per capita. Ythlev (talk) 11:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Stop removing the map without consensus

    Please stop removing the map without having consensus on the talk page. As you can see, one editor has voiced their desire to remove the map and replace it with a simple aggregate map of all cases (Almaty) and a second who has not contributed on the talk page here (Goszei) would like the same outcome. Everyone else (Dan Polansky,  Ohc , Voorlandt, Roman, Sdkb and myself) has opposed this. That means there is not consensus for removing it so please use the talk page to discuss any issues and don't just remove the map. Thank you.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 10:25, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I've never removed it, only tagged with a disputed tag, once. And that is fair enough --Almaty (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    But whilst it is still under dispute, and has been removed 3x in 24 hours once by MediaWiki, the disputed tag should remain. --Almaty (talk)
    Disputed tag back. I would respectfully ask that you dont remove that without consensus. --Almaty (talk) 10:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Can someone point me to the policy where disputed tags are somehow allowed to be removed these days without consensus? Back when i edited a lot circa 2006 that was not the case. --Almaty (talk) 10:59, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think, with an article as prominent as this, the
    WP:STATUSQUO while this discussion plays out. Sdkb (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Why is Hong Kong listed separately to China?

    Shouldn't Hong Kong be included in the figure for China, in the table? We don't list, for example, England, Scotland, etc. separtately (they are combined into United Kingdom). You could also argue that Taiwan shouldn't be listed separately either, because very few countries recognize it's "independence". Same goes for Palestine, as it isn't a real country.MisterZed (talk) 17:32, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @MisterZed: Because our articles separate the mainland from the other three territories; each of the NHC daily reports (since the case confirmation in the Tibet AR on 29 Jan) also cites 31个省（自治区、直辖市）, which is the number of provincial-level divisions in the mainland. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 17:43, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Because there is no freedom of movement between Hong Kong and the mainland China, they have very different healthcare systens, and the measures taken by the governmant of the PRC are not valid in Hong Kong and vice versa--Ymblanter (talk) 17:45, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    MisterZed, Hong Kong and Macau are Special Administrative Regions and while are technically part of China, are not part of the Mainland. Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 22:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Agree

    Hong Kong and Macao (SARs of the People's Republic of China) should be listed with data from the Chinese mainland. However, the Republic of China (currently in occupied Taiwan) should be listed as a separate nation as it is not, in reality, under the Chinese government's jurisdiction. Its de facto government also confirms a much lower number than the mainland. Palestine is actually recognised by most countries (it is just that most of the Western world doesn't) and is recognised as a non-UN member state by the UN (along with the Holy See). The Republic of China is no longer recognised by the UN as a member or non-member, and is recognised by only a handful of countries including Paraguay and the Holy See. JMonkey2006 (talk) 10:25, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hong Kong and Macao have very high autonimy including having border control with the mainland so they are generally consider separate from the main land. With Taiwan most countries don't officially recognise it because of China but most do unofficially so it is listed as separate. — RealFakeKimT 19:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Map should be coloured | All Red is Distracted !

    I am the Opinion it should have a contrast. For the Bad Regions like China, Iran and Italy can be remained Red, but second Yellow, Green and seas blue and the countries with less than 10 cases White. Then can be seen better. Now all red seems an apocaliptic Situation which is not, example MapVirus

    I would say this is harder to read with so many colours. It is ridiculous when even Antarctica is coloured. Hzh (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There are many Expeditions' Ships travelling Antarctica and Arctic. Ships are now domes of germs incubators, It has also stations, but as you read right, countries & territories with less than 10 cases White and seas blue For me ridiculous is put
    wolves... or other interesting animals... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.108.149.192 (talk) 21:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    The infobox map should be replaced with File:COVID-19 outbreak global case count map scripted.svg. It is generated hence less prone to errors. It also complies with mapping conventions. Ythlev (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    My only concerns are the colour scheme, it feels kinda odd to see everything in the shade of orange, don't get me wrong. The colour scheme has been discussed before, participated by several editors, so a sudden change won't be widely acceptable. And the second and last concern of mine is the file, why do we need to use multiple files for a single purpose map? These are just my opinions by the way. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 20:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Should go from blues to refs IMO. Florescent green, no thanks. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:23, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    HueMan1 Agree, except that we should make the seas white and the countries with the least cases gray. Victionarier (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    For me a better Map Realistic continues to be so https://interaktiv.abendblatt.de/corona-virus-karte-infektionen-deutschland-weltweit/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.108.149.192 (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Map

    @Ratherous: The infobox map should be replaced with File:COVID-19 outbreak global case count map scripted.svg. It is generated hence less prone to errors. It also complies with mapping conventions. Ythlev (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    My only concerns are the colour scheme, it feels kinda odd to see everything in the shade of orange, don't get me wrong. The colour scheme has been discussed before, participated by several editors, so a sudden change won't be widely acceptable. And the second and last concern of mine is the file, why do we need to use multiple files for a single purpose map? These are just my opinions by the way. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 20:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That can be changed easily. Apparently there is no opinion on the maps at all. Ythlev (talk) 06:17, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @Almaty and HueMan1: You keep reverting the maps but don't mention what exactly needs to be discussed. Ythlev (talk) 08:34, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Thats cos there's two discussions on the maps --Almaty (talk) 08:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think we should include any death calculations or per capita calculations as while these may seem simple, they are not obvious or correct in their interpretation. The reason for this is that there is a massive lag in this outbreak especially, and due to unreliability of reported figures (undue comparison will be made against disparate health care systems). Both will lead people to me more alarmed or reassured than they should be. In terms of policy this violates

    WP:CALC specifically. --Almaty (talk) 08:40, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    The current map is already in very wide use all over different Wikipedia websites, and I am inclined to believe that the map should be open to visual editors as there are more users who are able to edit such maps through those tools. --Ratherous (talk) 09:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Other language websites do not bear any precedence over English wikipedia consensus. --Almaty (talk) 09:34, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Still, it's best to keep maps relating to this topic consistent on all platforms, especially considering how fast-moving the situation is. --Ratherous (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    But it can be edited manually. Ythlev (talk) 10:04, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    In my experience that can sometimes mess up the coding. Either way there really isn’t much reason to change to current map as it is already in wide use and has more standard visual presentations such as borders and consistent coastlines. --Ratherous (talk) 12:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Please continue this discussion in the already ongoing related discussion above regarding a deaths per-capita map.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 09:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Various Small Nations & Territories to Add to table

    Please add the following countries and territories to the table.

    U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS - 1 case of COVID-19 as of March 13. See: [2]

    FRENCH French Guiana Martinique St. Martin St. Barthelemy (St. Barts) French Polynesia See: [3]

    CAYMAN ISLANDS See:[4]

    ARUBA See: [5]

    CURACAO See: [6]

    There are others ... but I have to get to work. Will try to add more tomorrow if I can find the time.


    Liane-Windsor (talk) 09:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article241196966.html
    2. ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tziRtNgnbZM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2oNnPZRpvnsKZD14VU_JUu_I-XPtLD0gBOITuvUzTC4VoTcYMZ1wC1OgM
    3. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_France
    4. ^ http://www.gov.ky/portal/page/portal/cighome/pressroom/archive/March%202020/First%20Case%20of%20COVID-19%20Confirmed
    5. ^ https://www.visitaruba.com/news/general/corona-virus-and-travel-to-aruba/
    6. ^ https://www.looptt.com/content/coronavirus-suriname-curacao-close-their-borders-midnight

    Jersey?

    Why has Jersey disappeared from the table? This keeps happening over and over again. Cayman Islands was also on the list, then it wasn't.

    Jersey has at least 2 cases confirmed according to their government.

    See: [1]

    Liane-Windsor (talk) 09:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ https://www.gov.je/News/2020/Pages/CoronavirusSecondCase.aspx

    Brasil : 162 cases 1 Cured

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Brazil#Statistics — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.108.149.192 (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Indeed there is discrepancies what federal government officially want to admit and what secretary government has detected. You know how disorganised is Brazil, but 107 cases is less than the plausible amount of 162. Wikipedia in order hand says 173. This is the reference [1]
    what the guy says below is already old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.108.149.192 (talk) 12:45, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    What is the criteria for inclusion on this page for a country on domestic responses

    I propose as a simple method for now 1000 cases reported. --Almaty (talk) 10:17, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    seems like a good idea--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:47, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Inconsistencies in Epidemiology Table

    Autonomous territories such as the Faroe Islands, Gibraltar are included with their official country. This is inconsistent with the autonomous territories of Hong Kong and Macao which are included in separate rows.

    We should either list all states, territories and regions under its official country, or list all autonomous territories (highest degree of autonomy in a country's system) as separate countries/territories.

    JMonkey2006 (talk) 10:17, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    No. Consistency isn't necessarily going to be possible: we depend on how sources are reporting the data. Bondegezou (talk) 10:55, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Main page no longer has infected total in the "heading section".

    besides this,i think recoveries shouldn't even be in the section, its ultimately misleading, as people assume that because recoveries are consistently rising that the virus has been "blown out of proportion" when it hasn't at all, nearly 100%(99.98) of people infected with seasonal flu recover(albeit yes with medical aid), though the rest did not....ie they died. for comparison, only about a thousand people die(at most it seems) for every 1 million infected with seasonal flu(Going by USA Statistics) , with the Novel Coronavirus, 30 Thousand die(At least it seems) So, to summarize i think the infection amount should go back, and the recoveries should go away, it makes people compare them and use them for reference when they generally should not be, it's not a useful statistic when the only application it has is to downplay the significance of Covid-19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yummycheetos (talk • contribs) 10:19, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Strongly support removing recoveries from the table because they're inconsistently reported and confusing. --Almaty (talk) 10:23, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2020

    Update the number of infected in Denmark to 827. Dreadtrout (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

     Already done - Someone has already updated it, including the Faroe Islands deaths. - MrX 🖋 11:53, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    cases/numbers

    Raise the Philippines cases to 98

    The news said it this 6:27 PM Philippine Standard Time. WIBWBP (talk) 10:35, 14 March 2020 (UTC) =[reply]

    New Australian Cases

    Number of confirmed cases in Australia - 249 (according to government broadcaster ABC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMonkey2006 (talk • contribs) 10:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Curaçao

    Please add Curaçao [7] --Extended Cut (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    New Cases in Suriname, St.Lucia and Uruguay

    There is one case in both Suriname and ST. Lucia

    Suriname Case

    St Lucia Case — Preceding unsigned comment added by MSWBB (talk • contribs) 23:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    There are 4 cases in Uruguay now

    Uruguay cases

    Preliminary reports of a monoclonal antibody against nCov-SARS-2

    There are preliminary reports of a monoclonal antibody that may be effective against nCov-SARS-2. See this, and this news report (in Dutch) and the pre-print at https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.11.987958v1 (archived at [8])

    It's a long way from being a treatment, as it hasn't even started on clinical trials, but it's encouraging research. -- The Anome (talk) 10:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The first case of Covid-19

    The first case of Covid-19 was first seen in Wuhan China on December 8, 2019 this section starts with saying the virus was first detected in November with a questionable source that is not accurate.

    According to epidemiological surveys by national, provincial and municipal experts, the incidence of unexplained viral pneumonia in Wuhan this time was between December 8, 2019 and January 2, 2020. Since January 3, 2020, clinical and epidemiological investigations have revealed no patients with new infections. [2] Background Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a disease caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), first detected in China in December, 2019. In January, 2020, state, local, and federal public health agencies investigated the first case of COVID-19 in Illinois, USA. [3] Hardrocker11969 (talk) 12:21, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The South China Morning Post supports the first case being in November. [9] I think we should avoid the Wuhan government as a source, unless corroborated a by a reliable secondary source. I would trust the Lancet over the SCMP or any government source. - MrX 🖋 12:39, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The December 8 date was already outdated many weeks ago. Another date, December 1, 2020, was given in January 2020 in another report,[10]. The 17 November date is the latest one given. Hzh (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ https://g1.globo.com/bemestar/coronavirus/noticia/2020/03/13/casos-confirmados-de-novo-coronavirus-no-brasil-em-13-de-marco.ghtml
    2. ^ http://wjw.wuhan.gov.cn/front/web/showDetail/2020011109036
    3. ^ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30607-3/fulltext
    The Lancet article is recent (yesterday). The Science Mag article is outdated. - MrX 🖋 14:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The Lancet article from March 13, 2020 didn't give an exact date, just December 2019. I've changed it to one that gives the exact date of December 1st. We can wait for a better source that gives the November date before adding that. Hzh (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Honorifics

    @

    Wikidata Q85764011
    say that US President Obama gave a huge gift to US Senator from coal country Mitch McConnell by declaring a "war on coal" -- WITHOUT acknowledging the valuable contributions that coal mining families and their ancestors have made to the rest of the nation. Hilary effectively kicked them in the teeth with her "deplorables" comment: These are people with legitimate grievances against the system. They are being robbed of their dignity and are rebelling against that. They may misdiagnose their problems, and Mr. Trump and other leading Republican politicians may exploit that, and the mainstream media in the US may contribute to this exploitation through inadequate coverage of the range of responsible expert opinion on almost any issue.

    However, I believe Banerjee and Duflo's comment about "robbing people of their dignity" accurately describes a substantive part of the dangerous divide in US politics (and probably in other countries as well). Therefore, I try to go out of my way to avoid unintended slights: By doing that, I believe I increase the chances that his followers will think about the available evidence and not get trapped in their perceptions of subtle insults. Ya catch mo' flies with honey than vinegar.

    Comments? Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia and to helping improve the access to information for the entirety of humanity. DavidMCEddy (talk) 14:42, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I have seen such complaints in my Facebook feed, largely from friends who tend not to use "Mr." or "President" when discussing Trump's predecessor. So I hear you on honey & vinegar, but the best and fairest way is to treat all presidents (and other people) equally. I presume this is why Wikipedia style is to do just that.
    WP:NAMES, whose intro includes, "While this guideline focuses on biographies, its advice pertains, where applicable, to all articles that mention people.") Cheers. PRRfan (talk) 17:49, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Broadway

    How should this be handled? I don't yet have a link other than this.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:38, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Like everything else. If this aspect of the pandemic is receiving a large amount of coverage, then we should summarize what sources are saying about it, in proportion to everything else that is relevant to the situation. - MrX 🖋 18:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, but where and how much in this article?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Cases per capita

    In order to show the impact (or posible impact) of the virus on national levels, its important to add a list of how many cases are registered per capita in each country. This will give an excellent indication of how much pressure the health care systems are experiencing and may explain why some countries take certain measures before others. The pressure on the health care systems is by far the largest concern of this health crisis.

    Example of how the list would order the countries at the moment: Countries with most registered cases per capita (total cases per 1 million):

    • Italy (21.157) = 349.9
    • Norway: (1077) = 198.7
    • Switzerland (1375) = 158.9
    • South Corea: (8086) = 157.7
    • Iran: (12.729) = 151.5
    • Denmark: (827) = 142.8
    • Spain: (6315) = 135.1

    Other coutnries:

    • Germany:(4525) = 54
    • France: (4469) = 68
    • China: (80.824) = 56.2
    • USA: (2499) = 7.5
    • UK: (1140) = 16.8
    • Chile (43) = 2.2

    Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    --Ednotis (discusión) 21:04 13 mar 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ednotis (talk • contribs)

    Sir , firstly thanks for paying attention to it , yes sir I imply that WHO has not yet said that ,also we must understand that rephrasing the statement from "can" to "could" just changes the person's point of view to read that whereas the overall intention of the statement is still the same . I would be thankfull to you if you send me the links of your additional sourcing from WHO Akshat Bhardwaj 2265 (talk) 09:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Sir thanks for understanding my contention and working to the needful , but we must understand that rephrasing it from "can" to "could" cannot suffice as the overall intention of the statement is same. As per my research , WHO has not yet said those statements. Even if according to your additional sourcing they have said , than the proper link should be attached with that statement . Link 7 is of opening remarks of WHI Dic-Gen . Than the hyperlink of link 7 should be replaced and instead of those opening remarks , your credible additional sources should be attached Akshat Bhardwaj 2265 (talk) 10:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Sir thanks for understanding my contention and working to the needful , but we must understand that rephrasing it from "can" to "could" cannot suffice as the overall intention of the statement is same. As per my research , WHO has not yet said those statements. Even if according to your additional sourcing they have said , than the proper link should be attached with that statement . Link 7 is of opening remarks of WHI Dic-Gen . Than the hyperlink of link 7 should be replaced and instead of those opening remarks , your credible additional sources should be attached Akshat Bhardwaj 2265 (talk) 10:05, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Critic Section

    Hello, I would like to say that it would be good to add a section of critics of this "pandemia". Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.39.214.62 (talk) 21:31, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    agree(it was moved to its own article)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:00, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2020

    According to https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/03/14/coronavirus-updates-trump-may-get-tested-house-passes-relief-bill/5032571002/, 16 states closed all schools as a result of the coronavirus epidemic. This statement can be added along with the current statement about the current cases and deaths in the United States. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 21:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Standardization of USA Coronavirus cases

    Each source is reporting a different count of USA coronavirus cases.

    Template:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic data/United States medical cases (Ref) states 2526 cases. How do I know which source has the right data, since every source is reporting a different count? CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 22:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Some include the Grand Princess, some do not. Some include US territories, some do not. They don't all update at the same time either. This leads to many different numbers. As long as their difference is less than the daily increase in case count or below let's say 5% (whatever is larger) it doesn't matter much. --mfb (talk) 23:22, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The WHO is not in the business of "declaring" pandemics

    Whilst about half of the media ignored exactly what they said, declaring in common parlance means that a specific set of responses will occur and that there was a specific change in status that occurred on Wednesday.
    We agree that that does not happen. This has been also confirmed by a WHO spokesman. They didn't declare the pandemic, they recognised that it can be "characterised as a pandemic". They also state that this is the first pandemic that can be controlled, nearly in the same breath. This is important content for the lead. --Almaty (talk) 22:45, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    "recognized as"? "called"? The status did change, it's now called a pandemic (pretty universally, which was not true before). --mfb (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm happy with "said", "called", "recognised", "defined", "characterised" just not "declared" because people take that to mean there was a status change. There was only a word change. --Almaty (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Recognized, called, or said would probably be fine. - MrX 🖋 23:29, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Someone removed the disputed tag without discussion so based on these and the main page comments I put it as recognised as I don't think this has been tried. --Almaty (talk) 00:13, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Hello, I would say 'Recognized' as well. I prefer 'Recognized' over 'Called' as I find 'Recognized' a bit more formal--I'm sorry, I'm a terrible pedant, haha Rebestalic[dubious—discuss] 03:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC) Should I go ahead and change now?[reply]
    Yes thankyou, there appears clear consensus that it wasn't a declaration. Should we discuss whether it needs to be included that this is the first pandemic that can be controlled? --Almaty (talk) 03:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I totally disagree with

    Carl Fredrik talk 10:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    The main page agreed it was a lot of consensus --Almaty (talk) 10:56, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Please add a proper summary when splitting

    I see that a large chunk of the article has been split off into a separate, but please, when splitting, leave a proper summary behind. See

    WP:CORRECTSPLIT. This has been done a few times, and people just didn't bother to leave a summary or if a summary is left, it is inadequate. This made the article looks odd and unbalanced. Parts of the article get trimmed to the barest that it became uninformative, while other parts still have large sections. The last one removed is the criticism section, previously the praise for the Chinese actions was balanced by the criticism, but now, it is nothing but praise, which made this article non-neutral. Ditto for the other parts. Also why is the American subsection in Domestic responses much bigger than China? It simply doesn't make sense. So much has been stripped from the China subsection that no one reading it will have any idea how extraordinary the Chinese response was. The article as it is simply looks just a bit ridiculous. Hzh (talk) 02:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC) Hzh (talk) 02:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    I support all splits by experienced contributors, not always a edit summary will be able to be provided as the outbreak progresses, this isn't to remove or censor content, its to keep this page readable --Almaty (talk) 05:59, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    What is the point of being readable when the article is a mess, which is what it is now. I see problems everywhere, as I have already mentioned that there is nothing but praise for the Chinese government because the criticism has been ripped out, and the only mention of Li Wenliang is one that says he was censored for "scare-mongering" and "factual-inaccuracies" in his "controversial" post. The Chinese President Xi Jinping is not mentioned apart from being praised by foreign governments. The article now resembles something written by the propaganda arm of the Chinese Communist Party. There are guidelines for splitting, if you don't want to abide by the guidelines, then don't do it. Don't leave the article violating all kinds of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Hzh (talk) 10:14, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that the Li Wenliang part was added by Mopswade - [11]. Hzh (talk) 10:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    North Korea's Domestic Response

    The

    section on other countries. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 02:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    due to that country's lack of transparency its best left as is...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Case fatality rates

    This has been an ongoing discussion throughout the course of the article. The current CFR quoted, whilst high, sourced, and attributed, does not provide any necessary context to the general reader. Estimates vary widely based on numerous factors (please do a search of "death rate" or "mortality rate" or CFR in the talk). I think that any CFR quoted needs a detailed amount of context, context that not even experts are able to provide at this stage. Therefore, until a review on CFR is done, CFRs should not be quoted per

    WP:MEDRS --Almaty (talk) 02:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    "CFRs should not be quoted per
    WP:MEDRS": Aha. I am at a loss of words. Shame on you and on WHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Lets be
    WP:CIVIL please User:Dan Polansky --Almaty (talk) 09:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Which passage of
    WP:MEDRS prohibits publishing of CFR, publishing with appropriate warning about uncertainty? Are you in any way affiliated with WHO? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:43, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Anyway, the kind reader can find out about CFR e.g. in Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19), ourworldindata.org; search for "How do case fatality rates from COVID-19 compare to those of the seasonal flu?" and find that the CFR for covid-19 is "12 to 24-times higher than common flu" when all ages are considered together. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:09, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Dan Polansky that is precisely my point, we need to include a lot of clear communication of uncertainty if and when we decide to publish CFRs. --Almaty (talk) 10:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That is easy to do yet Almaty claims above even experts cannot do it. Let's try: "The best estimates of CFR range from X to Y, but the calculation is fraught with difficulties, including difficultyA, difficultyB, and difficultyC(trace to multiple sources)". How hard can it be? Are you in any way affiliated with WHO? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    case by nation table too narrow

    Can someone please widen that table with the 120 coutries in it to make the horizontal scrolling go away? Vertical scrolling I get, but horizontal should be unnecessary.... 70.27.169.176 (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    that is a technical issue--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:43, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Views lost

    17:23, 11 March 2020‎ Amakuru moved page "2019–20 coronavirus outbreak" to "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic." Hence the page started counting views from zero. Where can I find the lost views? --Maxaxax (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:14, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Graeme Bartlett In source code I can see that you put a link there, but I can't make it work. In view mode it's invisible (at least on my device) Robertpedley (talk) 12:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Maxaxax: try this:

    (I get empty boxes for both on preview). Boud (talk) 14:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Inaccurate per-capita map in infobox

    Please do not add the following map until its factual errors have been corrected: File:March14 cases per-capita-COVID-19.png. I have currently commented it out from the infobox; please read the Commons talk page discussion for details. Most notably, China is two shades too light (colored as >0.1 active cases per million when it really should be >50 active cases per million). There may be other errors, but they are also not correctable because it is a PNG file instead of an SVG. The editor who created it seems to have simply colored in the countries using raster tools (closer inspection finds a lot of uncolored islands), so I don't think it should really be used in any case. Maybe another editor could produce an SVG alternative? — Goszei (talk) 06:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I want to call attention to this again; the same editor has again added the map, which still has the same glaring inaccuracy. — Goszei (talk) 10:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Monopoly31121993(2): Can you comment on the above, and correct the map as applicable? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with removing the "Cases per capita" map as advocated by Goszei until its flaws have been resolved. I already discussed the map itself on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Media_Viewer/About, removed it once; Monopoly31121993 reverted it ... without addressing the issue first. Why?Redav (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Lockdowns vs quarantines

    There is a difference. If Israel is on "lockdown", that means New Zealand is on "lockdown". Neither are on quarantine. --Almaty (talk) 08:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    generally agree--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Convalescent plasma

    The WHO summary of research documents investigations of the use of convalescent plasma as a treatment for COVID-19. Should this be mentioned in the Management section? Lavateraguy (talk) 08:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't think so. It's theoretical at the moment, not even experimental so it could possibly fall under a research heading. But there are about 35 other possible treatments working their way thru the system, we can't list them all. Wait until there is more progress,
    clinical trials take a long time. Robertpedley (talk) 12:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Agree with Robertpedley. Bondegezou (talk) 17:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Name of the virus - editing dispute

    @User:Almaty, the officially endorsed name of the virus per the WHO: "For that reason and others, WHO has begun referring to the virus as “the virus responsible for COVID-19” or “the COVID-19 virus” when communicating with the public. Neither of these designations are intended as replacements for the official name of the virus as agreed by the ICTV." — Goszei (talk) 08:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I very readily concede that the WHO doesn't have precedence over the name of the virus. However, I think that its a bit of common sense to recognize that most national governments, most health care systems, and even the WHO uses the more "natural" name as the virus name. --Almaty (talk) 08:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    And trust me, this has been debated ad infinitum amongst experts I know. Its boring, but we can do better than experts, we can use our policy of
    WP:COMMONNAME --Almaty (talk) 08:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Maybe in isolation the use of the term could be justified, but I find it a little ridiculous to construct a sentence that says "the COVID-19 outbreak is caused by the COVID-19 virus". It is akin to saying that "the swine flu outbreak was caused by the swine influenza virus". The statement is true, and the term "swine influenza virus" was used by the WHO and official health sources, but it is redundant and colloquial at best in comparison to the officail name "H1N1".
    To address
    WP:COMMONNAME, the page prescribes using Google search result numbers: "covid-19 virus" returns 35.6 million results and "sars-cov-2" returns 77.6 million. Personally, this is first time I have seen the "COVID-19 virus" term, I think it should at least gain a mention on the main article for the virus before it is used here in the lead. Also, I don't think that "COVID-19 virus (SARS-CoV-2)" is an acceptable construction because it begs the question as to what the acronym stands for. — Goszei (talk) 08:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Good to think about.
    As always I attempt to pre-empt controversial discussions about this virus but please see the related move discussion. --Almaty (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Strongly support the
    WP:CURRENT
    TAG

    as is, this is a current event. We say pandemic enough. --Almaty (talk)

    It's already listed on
    WP:CURRENT. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 12:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Regarding a factual inaccuracy in first paragraph

    I the first paragraph, statements from WHO are mentioned wrongly . This blog is ineditable so as to prevent vandilism but the authority incharge of this page should take note of that and don't spread wrong information . The statement written is "Simultaneously, the WHO stated that this is the first known pandemic that can be controlled" whereas WHO has nowheren said in there statements whereas what they meant was "And we have never before seen a pandemic that can be controlled, at the same time." If we look at that , there is a difference and thus leading to spread of wrong information. Therefore proper steps need to taken it should be changed as soon as possible Akshat Bhardwaj 2265 (talk) 09:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Do you imply that the WHO has not said that? --Almaty (talk) 09:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I have used additional sourcing from the WHO and changed "can" to "could" for clarity --Almaty (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Total cases outside China exceed total cases in China

    Almost certainly the world counter will exceed 162,000 cases either today or tomorrow -- at which point there will have been more cases outside China than there were inside China. That probably deserves a line in the Epidemiology section, and probably in the lede. This not crystal-balling. Since the pattern of new cases inside and outside China indicates that it is only a matter of a day or two, I simply heads-up here on the talk page, so it can be added when appropriate. (For deaths, the relevant total number would be ~6400.) - User:Tenebris 66.11.171.90 (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Irrelevant without sources. If it is inevitable we can state it tomorrow, when there will be sources.
    Carl Fredrik talk 10:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Per WP policy, basic math (in this case a sum total) is not OR and does not require separate referencing. And it did end up being today. - Tenebris 66.11.171.90 (talk) 14:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Why no photos from China at the top of the page?

    At the top of the article, there are some photos:

    Hospitalised patients in Tehran, IranItalian government outbreak task forceDisinfection vehicles in TaipeiHealth checks at Milan Linate AirportEmpty shelves in an Australian supermarket due to panic buying

    Why no photos from China, where this virus originated? Surely that should be noteworthy? 77.241.137.181 (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    b/c its worldwide, not just China--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:54, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Given that it started in China, it is bizarre that it is not reflected in the photos. I see this as no more than part of an effort by some editors to push the narrative propagated by China so to minimise its role in the outbreak and blaming other people to deflect blame. Another example is a recent edit saying the origin is unknown (it matches the latest Chinese narrative) when it is clear it started in China. The article is now non-neutral and UNDUE (e.g. there is now more content on criticisms of US than China, not to mention a whole subsection praising China), and also a far larger section on the United States than China in the domestic response section. Hzh (talk) 13:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hzh: Rather than sprouting conspiracy theories, why don't you find an image from Commons:Category:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in China or otherwise that we can use that and then come back here and tell us about it, and tell us where you feel we should add the image (e.g. if you want to replace one of the existing ones)? Bear in mind that all of the images we are using at the top of the page except for the empty shelves one seem to be coming from government sources, and of course they are often the ones able to provide quality images under difficult conditions. So naturally there is going to be a bias towards governments who actually release their content under free licences or into the public domain, as well as governments willing to provide images that seem to be illustrative rather than pure propaganda. Of course there may be suitable images that don't come from government sources, as with the empty shelves one, but ultimately we're limited by what's available under a suitable licence, as we always are. P.S. As for the US criticism thing, welcome to Wikipedia. Where our strong US editor base means a US bias in a large percentage of articles, often in a way that annoys most of us who don't live in the US. Nil Einne (talk) 14:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't really care for the images, if pushed, I'd say delete them. Nice theory about more American editors, but that isn't what happened, otherwise why would you have a whole section praising China? There was a great deal more content about China (probably around a third of the article), but all that was trimmed away, so that now you have a lopsided article. Hzh (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Table editing

    Why am I unable to edit the table? In the pandemic by country section, when trying to source editing (not visual editing) on phone, the table isn't shown to edit; and in visual editing it is so hard on the phone. Aminabzz (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    that's a technical question--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:25, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    School closures - outdated references and information

    The section Impact on Education needs better and more up-to-date sources. The claim "As of 14 March, more than 420 million children and youth are not attending school" is supported only by references from 4-9 March, since which time additional school closures have been implemented. The 420 million/14 March figures may be correct but this needs a reference to be a reliable claim - it is higher than the figures that I have seen for example from UNESCO.

    Also, it is unclear to what level of education the figure of 420 million extends - universities are also schools, and these are widely being closed in affected areas, but university students are not being considered in this section (cf. "children and youth").

    The statements "Thirteen countries have shut schools nationwide"/"Nine more countries including India have implemented localised school closures" is again supported only by a reference to an article from 4 March. It is unclear to readers which is out of date: the reference or the information on Wikipedia. Both statements are clearly out-of-date if one does additional research. At this point, using numbers on the page (without listing the countries, for example in a footnote) introduces the risk that countries implementing school closures will be accidentally missed or double-counted, since these numbers are rapidly changing.

    Are worldwide statistics on school closures and impacted students being compiled that could be cited? The most reliable site that I have found is UNESCO, where the following is stated:

    "An unprecedented number of children, youth and adults are not attending schools or universities because of COVID-19. Governments in 49 countries have announced or implemented the closure of educational institutions in an attempt to slow the spread of the disease (link is external). UNESCO is providing immediate support to countries as they work to minimize the educational disruption and facilitate the continuity of learning, especially for the most vulnerable."

    "According to UNESCO monitoring, 29 countries have closed schools nationwide, impacting almost 391.5 million children and youth. A further 20 countries have implemented localized school closures and, should these closures become nationwide, hundreds of millions of additional learners will experience education disruption."

    Source: COVID-19 Educational Disruption and Response Last update 13 March 2020 https://en.unesco.org/themes/education-emergencies/coronavirus-school-closures

    Also, the infographic "Learners affected by school closures caused by COVID-19 as of 13 March 2020" cites only a reference from 4 March, but it shows (for example) school closures in Denmark and Norway that were only announced this week.

    Note that country-wide school closures take effect in Iceland as of 16 March (not sure if the Wikipedia graphic will be automatically updated at midnight tonight to reflect that). Source: Samkomubann vegna COVID-19 tekur gildi 16. mars 2020, Published 13. mars 2020 12:09, https://www.almannavarnir.is/frettir/samkomubann-vegna-covid-19-tekur-gildi-16-mars-2020/

    Thanks! --Sylgja (talk) 11:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Colouring seems misleading for China

    The colour for China and the legend indicate that in China there would be over 0.1 cases per million inhabitants. Assuming there are about 1,450,000,000 inhabitants in China, and taking either the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases (i.e. 80,824) or the number of confirmed cases minus the confirmed recoveries and deaths (i.e. 80,824 - 65,569 - 3,189), this would lead to approximately 55.7 or 8.3 cases per million. So, while strictly speaking the colouring is not wrong (since both numbers are indeed over 0.1 cases per million), the colouring is misleading. Who is technically knowledgeable enough to change the colouring of the map for (at least) China?Redav (talk) 11:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    thanks for suggestion--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Meaninglessness of map of cases per capita

    • No definition of "cases per capita" is indicated, so it remains unclear whether total number of infected, current number of infected, deaths, or anything else is meant.
    • The boundaries in the legend are open in one direction, so in principle all the world could rightfully be coloured with the lightest colour, and it would strictly speaking still be correct.
    • But such colouring would make the map meaningless.
    • The remark by Monopoly31121993 saying editor with China objection states "strictly speaking the colouring is not wrong" so removing image is unwarranted at his/her re-introduction of the map does not include a discussion of the above.
    • I propose removal of this particular map until:
      • a clear definition is stated by the author;
      • upper boundaries are added in the legend, in the form of: between 0.1 and 1.0 cases per million inhabitants.Redav (talk) 12:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the map is actually helpful, since a ratio of cases to population is a better representation of the coronavirus’ impact on a country than numbers (such as those indicated on a map) without context. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 12:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I would agree as soon as the definitions and colouring legend are clear and leave no room for misleading. As the situation is now, the map can - and seems to - be used to misrepresent and downplay the state of the COVID-19 outbreak. What would you say to this?Redav (talk) 12:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I removed the map for now. Victionarier (talk) 18:13, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The map had issues, but it was also very helpful. --Calthinus (talk) 18:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    We need another editor to make an alternative, as the one who made the incorrect one is being rather evasive. — Goszei (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Cases per capita map is very wrong

    The map uses 5 colors (excepting grey) but the legend contains 6. The bright red is missing from the map. I think that the beige in the map actually corresponds to >0.1 cases per million, the bright pink is >1 case per million and the dark pink is >10 cases per million. As it is now, lots of major countries are off by a factor 10; Russia, China, Finland and so on. Even if the legend was fixed, Iran has 165 cases per million and should be darkest red. As it is now, it is very misleading, and I'm removing it from the articles it is used in until this issue is fixed. See discussion on the image page –St.nerol (talk) 12:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2020

    RMCD bot messed up with the heading.

    The correct header should be: 

    <noinclude>{{User:RMCD bot/subject notice|1=2019-2020 COVID-19 pandemic|2=Talk:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic#Rename article to "2019-2020 COVID-19 pandemic"}}
{{User:RMCD bot/subject notice|1=Coronavirus pandemic|2=Talk:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic#Move to "Coronavirus pandemic"}}
{{User:RMCD bot/subject notice|1=Wuhan Chinese Coronavirus Pandemic|2=Talk:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic#Rename Article to "Wuhan Chinese Coronavirus Pandemic"}}</noinclude>

    CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    It's not clear what you are asking for. Please be specific about which header or heading *(which is it?) should be changed and why. - MrX 🖋 14:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @MrX: The main page should have contained those headings before each of the discussions were closed, but as they were closed, this is redundant. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 16:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. “Disease” is unnecessary, since this coronavirus outbreak is obviously a disease. “COVID-19” is not as clear a title as “coronavirus.” --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:00, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The name should stay the same as the common names has been mostly “Coronavirus Pandemic” or “COVID-19 Pandemic” Efuture2 (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    cases/numbers

    Change

    In Lithuania there's 12 total confirmed cases now. Lukeris14 (talk) 13:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Lukeris14, please follow the {{edit semi-protected}} template and provide a source. Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 15:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    As of 15 March 2020, 140 total confirmed cases in Philippines

    Philippines now has 140 confirmed cases according to Philippine media and other sources, but the table still shows 111 confirmed cases. I want to correct that — but it turns out editing is disabled. Can someone correct it? John Dowell Blakeslee (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    John Dowell Blakeslee, please use the {{edit semi-protected}} template (read the documentation first) and tell us exactly what you want changed and what to change it into. A source (or two) is also needed. Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 15:25, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Kosovo

    5 confirmed cases Kreshnik Prizreni (talk) 08:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    venezuela news

    eight more cases confirmed sources:https://www.elnacional.com/venezuela/jorge-rodriguez-confirma-ocho-nuevos-casos-de-coronavirus-en-venezuela/ venezuela now have 10 cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.95.170.95 (talk) 03:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


    7 more for venezuela sources:https://elpitazo.net/politica/maduro-venezuela-suma-17-casos-confirmados-por-coronavirus-este-15marz/

    Discussion on Requested Moves

    Way too many move requests are being made for this article, and most of them aren't following the requested move policies. It would be appreciated if someone could clean up all requested moves and tag them appropriately. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 13:46, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    I will scan through the archives and add any unclosed proposed moves to the bottom. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 19:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Table with Progress

     All done

    Archive Data
    Archive Status Items Moved/Resolved
    Archive 1
    		  Done 1
    Archive 2
    		  Done 0
    Archive 3
    		  Done 0
    Archive 4
    		  Done 0
    Archive 5
    		  Done 1
    Archive 6
    		  Done 0
    Archive 7
    		  Done 0
    Archive 8
    		  Done 0
    Archive 9
    		  Done 1
    Archive 10
    		  Done 0
    Archive 11
    		  Done 0
    Archive 12
    		  Done 1
    Archive 13
    		  Done 0
    Archive 14
    		  Done 0
    Archive 15
    		  Done 1
    Archive 16
    		  Done 0
    Archive 17
    		  Done 1
    Archive 18
    		  Done 0

    3.5 million views

    perWikipedia:Top_25_Report--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:52, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    We got up to about 1.1 million/day a few days ago with the pandemic title, now it's dropping a bit. Previously it was around 0.5 million/day, so 3.5 million/week is reasonable. Boud (talk) 15:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Pandemic starting date

    Date of the disease originated is seemingly disputes. The previous edit said it started from November 17 before December 1. An earlier edits stated that the date is pushed toward December 12. This causes editing conflict, or misinformation through Wikipedia project. I recommend that editors must use the true independent reliable sources that is stable and they till can search from Google and find best sources largely informs about the virus. Secondly, do not change the origin date periodically that causes less trust for Wikipedia readers. The Supermind (talk) 16:23, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    The disease starting date is November 17 2019, according to China. The pandemic starting date would be officially when the WHO declared a pandemic, so 11 March 2020. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No. When something is identified as a pandemic is not when it began. The pandemic started 17 Nov 2019. Lots of people started calling it a pandemic later, certainly by Feb/early Mar. WHO started calling it a pandemic on 11 Mar. The latter is not when the pandemic started. Bondegezou (talk) 17:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with the 17 November date is that it is a claim based on an undisclosed government document reported by a newspaper. We don't know how reliable that information is. The 1 December date on the other hand is given in a published paper on the study of the disease. Hzh (talk) 17:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    WikiProject COVID-19

    I've created

    2019–20 coronavirus pandemic. Please bring your ideas to the project/talk page. Stay safe, ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Task Force would probably been more appropriate but whats done is done I'll help out as much as I can. — RealFakeKimT 17:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    agree Task Force would have been better--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Adjusted number of cases

    Dear all,

    I would like to share an idea to have a more precise understanding of the number of cases of COVID-19. A more precise current number of cases could be approximated by computing the square of cases today divided by the cases one week ago.

    The concept behind this assumes that people with the infection get tested after the symptoms occur. Since the incubation period is most commonly 5 days, the number of current cases would be at least 5 days old. In fact, if requesting and processing the test took 2 more days, the number of cases would be around 7 days old.

    My suggestion is to use the growth of the previous days. Let us imagine that a region had the following cases:

    date cases daily growth
    days ago
    days ago
    1 day ago
    today

    We can approximate the future growth by the past, and say that an adjusted number of cases can be approximated with:

    which is the same as

    As an example, these are the values for the first 10 countries in the list on 2020-03-14:

    country cases today cases one week ago adjusted cases today (approx.)
    China 80844 80695 80993
    Italy 21157 5883 76087
    Iran 12729 5823 27825
    South Korea 8162 7134 9338
    Spain 6391 430 94988
    Germany 3795 684 21056
    France 4499 949 21329
    United States 2794 352 22177
    Switzerland 1359 254 7271
    United Kingdom 1140 206 6309

    These adjusted values may fluctuate with sudden high values, like in the case of Spain.

    I hope someone can find this idea useful.

    Regards, Julian (talk) 17:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Unfortunately, our policies do not allow for
    original research. - MrX 🖋 20:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    New cases in Italy

    Italy reports 3,590 new cases and 368 new deaths, raising total to 24,747 cases and 1,809 dead

    Source: https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1239237647031242752?s=21 — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk • contribs) 17:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Already updated but not with your source. Please try and find something like a news artical or official report not twitter. — RealFakeKimT 17:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @RealFakeKim: BNO News is a reliable website. They source all of their statements. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    CoronavirusPlagueDoctor I can't find the source they use. — RealFakeKimT 18:22, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @RealFakeKim: Their website (https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/) contains the line

    17:10: 3,590 new cases and 368 new deaths in Italy. (Source)

    , and the Source is a link to a Twitter image (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETKoXpLWkAYO8mt?format=jpg&name=large), which I assume is an image posted by a Italian news agency or government official. A Google reverse image search gave me this link (filtered to past hour because results for previous days were popping up): http://www.nuvola.tv/coronavirus-368-i-morti-in-un-solo-giorno-2853-positivi-in-piu-crescono-anche-i-guariti/. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 18:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Ok thanks for the informaion. — RealFakeKimT 18:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    2 dead in Denmark

    Please can you put it. Florian Duboeuf (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

     Not done Please find a source then it will be updated

    Illogical sentence.

    The article reads:

    • Owing to the effective quarantine of public transport in Wuhan and Hubei, several countries have planned to (...)"

    Maybe the author meant something like this:

    • To make the quarantine of public transport in Wuhan and Hubei effective, several countries have planned to (...)

    Of course those countries don't care too much about China. They care about their own citizens who are in danger, which will matter in the next elections ;-) But what is the quarantine of public transport ? Quarantine of empty vehicles makes no sense. So, how about:

    • Because of the situation in Wuhan and Hubei, several countries have planned to (...)" ?

    85.193.242.185 (talk) 18:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Next time, create the message as an edit request, or add the edit request template to the top. The template looks like this: 
    {{edit semi-protected|2019–20 coronavirus pandemic|answered=no}}
    . I have added it for you. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 18:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @CoronavirusPlagueDoctor Oh, excuse my ignorance. It was a great lesson to me. Thank you so much :-) 85.193.242.185 (talk) 18:53, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @85.193.242.185: Don't worry, it's not a mandatory thing. It's just that you're more likely to get a response, so it should be added. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Display problems of the article suddenly

    Some recent edit must have change the main page. Suddenly I see side-panel scrollbars, which I did not see a few hours ago, or the days before today. So someone has changed something, which is a bit annoying because now I have to use these scrollbars. Could the main table, which I am most interested, simply be made in the middle of the page instead? I don't want to have to use a scrollbar to see new infections per country. 2A02:8388:1641:8380:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F (talk) 19:12, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    @
    the template's talk page. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    We do not give advice

    A well-intentioned editor added a hatnote ("Follow the advice of the World Health Organisation on how to help you and others from preventing the spread of the Coronavirus: here") to the top of the article directing readers to WHO. Such notes

    do not fit the purpose of an encyclopedia. - MrX 🖋 19:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    We can include what the WHO advice is, but yes, we can't advocate. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    We cannot include what the WHO advice is, because it is too long. We should provide the information that WHO (among other) give vital advice(s) in many pandemic topic, because it is encyclopedic, and we should do it right, because it is vital.
    The way to write it to make it "encyclopedic" is up to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.185.254.81 (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    A link to
    the pandemic, the disease, or their health. - MrX 🖋 21:15, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    We can include a note in
    See also along the phrase of The World Health Organization has published advice on how to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. The advice can be found[<link> on their website]. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk about the coronavirus/Contributions about the coronavirus) 21:22, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    We can include a neutrally and concisely phrased link in the External links section (not the see also section). Something like "Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) outbreak information from World Health Organization" - MrX 🖋 21:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Rename proposal to include disease name

    2019-20 Coronavirus disease 2019 outbreak
    is no longer applicable, it could still include the word disease in the title.

    As I have stated before, an outbreak is of a disease, not a virus. In Wikipedia, the disease is now called
    WP:Article Titles
    and the principle of consistency, we should be using that name in the title of this article. As that results in a cumbersome name, I will make 3 suggestions:

    • 2019-20 Coronavirus disease 2019 outbreak
      is the obvious title. It is consistent with the disease page, but cumbersome.
    • 2019-20 Coronavirus disease outbreak
      is a more minimal change. It is more readable but less precise.
    • 2019-20 COVID-19 outbreak
      is my favorite. It is less verbose, easier to find, and concise. It suffers only from the consistency issue, as it uses the acronym for the disease instead of the fully spelled out name. As the acronym is as official as the disease name, and it's mentioned prominently in the disease page, I do not see a major issue here.

    This page has never been named properly. Part of the reason is that the cause was known before the disease was named. Another issue is a lack of guidance on how to name an article on an outbreak in this case.

    The reasons for this article having it's current name have become moot. I know that this will be a quick second move, but I really think that pieces for doing this move are now in place. EMS | Talk 23:51, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • This page has never been named properly. I don’t know about that. On some level there’s no such thing as a “proper” name. It’s whatever the COMMONNAME is, determined to the best of our ability and within the consensus-finding process. I don’t think there is any problem with this title, given it’s at least properly descriptive when we don’t have an agreement on what a COMMONNAME might be: “2019–20 coronavirus outbreak” it’s an outbreak caused by a coronavirus (yes even if the disease is the outbreak, the virus itself is the cause of the disease) that occurred in 2019 and 2020. That’s fine. 199.66.69.88 (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment. I would like to cordially suggest to ALL parties interested in once again re-naming this highly-visible and increasingly popular article to please hit the pause button, take a deep breath, and wait at least one full week (uninterrupted from new re-naming attempts) and then go ahead and re-visit the issue. Thank you. History DMZ (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Additional Justification

    Coronavirus disease 2019 with an acronym of COVID-19
    . Furthermore, COVID-19 is now being regularly used in scientific sources like Nature magazine (see https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00154-w ) and lay sources like the Washington Post (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/coronavirus-china-live-updates/2020/02/21/81d2aa50-543e-11ea-b119-4faabac6674f_story.html ). Waiting a week before doing another formal RM I approve of. But part of my reason for wanting to do a discussion now is in part to set the stage for doing (or possibly no doing) said RM. EMS | Talk 17:40, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment: I think that when/if this disease becomes a pandemic, this page should be re-titled to "2019-20 coronavirus pandemic", or perhaps even "2020 COVID-19 pandemic" to illustrate the future severity of this event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.207.59.31 (talk) 02:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • support for "COVID-19 outbreak", per
      WP:CONCISE. --Almaty (talk) 11:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply
      ]

    Rename article to ‘’2019-20 Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 pandemic’’

    The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The result of the move request was: Speedy close - There is a clear consensus against moving this page. Interstellarity (talk) 22:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


    2012 Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus outbreak. Hushskyliner (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Because that is the common name for this virus and if I am be honest that name would be way too long for the article. HawkAussie (talk) 05:09, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:COMMONNAME would seem to apply. Shearonink (talk) 05:18, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I would support a move to the official and simple name "2019-20 COVID-19 pandemic", but not something as linguistically gruesome as the one in the title here. HiLo48 (talk) 06:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with renaming it to 2019-20 COVID-19 pandemic is the redundancy of the title itself which is 2019-20 Coronavirus disease 2019 pandemic which mentions the year 2019 twice, while using the name of the virus itself, Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, solves the problem which is better since other wiki articles for outbreaks such as
    2012 Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus outbreak, Western African Ebola virus epidemic, and 2015–16 Zika virus epidemic uses the name of the virus, and it would be better of calling this pandemic outbreak as 2019-20 Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 pandemic in case a SARS-CoV-2 outbreak emerges in the future one day or if a new strain/species of coronavirus that is not of SARS emerges which is why as early as now we must rename the outbreak 2019-20 Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 pandemic despite not being a Wiki common name because it doesn't seem to apply here. Hushskyliner (talk) 11:48, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Pandemics apply to diseases, not viruses.
    WP:RECOGNIZABILITY still strongly favor "coronavirus" over "COVID" by about a 7:1 ratio according to Google Trends and in general media usage. There are no other coronavirus pandemics so it's unambiguous. - Wikmoz (talk) 03:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Strong Oppose We don't need to rename the page 500 times a day --occono (talk) 20:38, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Occono: I bumped all requests that were in the archives that were viable to the main talk page. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Proposal: Move moratorium

    These requested moves on here are getting disruptive so I formally propose a moratorium. I am neutral on how long it should be. Interstellarity (talk) 20:51, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support - We need to focus on the content, not the title. What the final title will be hinges on what the end-point of this pandemic ends up being: we should be wary about trying to title the current incident while living through it. doktorb wordsdeeds 20:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support The last move was pretty disruptive, taking the usual editors to move all other related pages and updating them to conform to the new page name of this main article. Let's wait for the pandemic to stabilise first (be it for good or bad). robertsky (talk) 21:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support a 30 day move moratorium, unless and new consensus to lift this moratorium occurs before then. - MrX 🖋 21:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    TRNC

    Can we include Northern Cyprus somewhere else? There are reported 6 cases. Perhaps another section for partially and non recognized states? Beshogur (talk) 20:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Move moratorium to restrict additional rules enforcement

    I notice there was some requested moves recently, but most of them seems to too focus on "wanting to close" despite some merit on the RM starter side. The moratorium will restrict users from attempting to enforce additional rules that would censor voices in RM and prevent users from using vote "Speedy Close" or having it closed for

    WP:SNOW . Wants them to keep RM open for 7 days regularly vote (Support or Oppose) no matter how much were started after another. Regice2020 (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Support

    Oppose

    1. Weak oppose: Most people seem opposed to any moves due to the fact that it is a very hard task to accurately move anything else. CoronavirusPlagueDoctor (talk about the coronavirus/Contributions about the coronavirus) 22:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments

    Extra countries

    For UK can there be extra countries like Wales,Scotland,England and Northern Ireland. Hi poland (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:COVID-19_pandemic&oldid=945751567"