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76.107.171.90 and Barney the barney barney

Barney the barney barney is banned from interacting with Askahrc for two months. Sandstein 07:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning 76.107.171.90 and Barney the barney barney

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

76.107.171.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Barney the barney barney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

(Please forgive the slightly unusual format; these two editors both have a history of the same style of NPA toward me, often support one another, have been warned in the same AE previously and recently began attacking me at the same time, so it made sense to include them both)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it: 76.107.171.90

May 5, 2014 76.107.171.90 posted “Cap’n McDouche” on
WP:ASPERSIONS
.

Barney the barney barney

May 4, 2014 Barney states that I am incompetent, likely due to a severe mental impairment that he links to.
May 4, 2014 Barney clarifies his remarks to state that regardless of what illness I do/don't possess, I am too grossly incompetent in every way to be aware of my own ignorance.
May 4, 2014 When Littleolive oil informed Barney that it was unacceptable to imply other editors have mental illnesses, Barney called her ignorant.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

April 3, 2014 AE Results discussion in which both Barney and 76 are judged to be violating NPA. The admin wished to block Barney completely, but settled for another warning.
April 3, 2014 76's 2 day blocking for WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA while proclaiming that I was involved in a conspiracy to damage WP.
February 23, 2014 I noticed that an archived ANI had been tampered with by Barney, so I reverted the edit and reminded Barney that editing ANI Archives was frowned upon. Barney then told me that I was too incompetent to understand WP and insisted on reediting the archive. He was then sanctioned for edit-warring the archive.

If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts )

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked. (76, Barney)
Barney placed on Pseudoscience Sanction Log for incivility and aspersion. (Barney, Barney)
Both Barney and 76 participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on April 3, 2014.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

WP:NPA

toward me in the past. I have not pursued any interaction with either of them since then, but recently they have both begun making personal attacks and casting aspersions about my integrity, sexuality and mental health.

76.107.171.90 posted “Cap’n McDouche” on Guy's Talk page, accusing me of writing on an off-wiki page (the content was lifted from months-old postings on my Talk page and I had no involvement or input in their posting on the website, which the website openly states). 76 then attempted to insult me with unacceptably homophobic profanity:

"He has now posted another polemic on Tumbleman’s website in which he indicates that he is “investigating dicks” on Wikipedia. And while I have no doubt that Askahrc has an extreme interest in dicks, I think it’s high time that this situation be rectified."

This reflects the vulgarity 76 used with me previously and when he called someone a "diehard retard." 76 then bragged they've intentionally been trying to provoke me

"When I first goaded Askahrc into providing evidence against himself at his own sock puppet investigation more than two months ago I figured that Askahrc would be a self-rectifying problem once I got the ball rolling.")

and refers to me as a "hardcore bully" (I've never interacted with 76 except to get him to stop harassing me). 76 denounces Littleolive oil as "harassing" and Liz as "the consort of every major fringe pusher".

Finally, 76 proposes various ideas on how to get me blocked,

"I can think of several strategies, but I think the most obvious is to get him for being a meat puppet. Alternately, I could dust off the old community block (it’s still “on the books”)."

I presume the block's status is in quotes because both Barney and 76 have been falsely stating I have a community block even after admins have told them that I have none. This continuing falsehood has led to wasted time on an AN by an admin fooled into thinking there was an actual block on me.

Barney posted on an AN board that I was too incompetent to contribute to sourcing a page, explaining that

"This may be due to the Dunning–Kruger effect."

The Dunning-Kruger effect states that grossly incompetent people are too ignorant to recognize their own mental disability, and compares its effect to severe brain injury. Barney further explains

"I do not really care what illnesses

WP:COMPETENCE, and lacking even the basic competence to understand that he's not competent." 1

then insists he has proof of my ignorance & incompetence without sharing it.

After referring to Dunning-Kruger as an illness himself, Barney then calls

WP:CIVIL

(and logic...).

76 and Barney each have a history of personal attacks, vulgarity and casting aspersions. They've been directly warned/sanctioned about this numerous times and yet continue to attack myself and others. The Cap'n (talk) 06:53, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I acknowledge Sandstein's request that any future AE's (let's hope not) be divided into separate filings for each involved editor for convenience. The Cap'n (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@76, this falls under ARBPSEUDO discretionary sanctions because A) Every single person you reference in your rant has been connected to

WP:ARBPSEUDO

in one way or another B) it's where you were warned to avoid this exact behavior (ie. accusing me of conspiring with someone associated with Pseudoscience), C) you specifically refer to wanting to stop "fringe pushers" in your rant.

Also, please note (as I mentioned on Guy's Talk and again here) that I did not write anything on that website. I only wrote what was on my talk page, which was entitled "Case Files," included no profanity, personal attacks or even the names of people I supposedly disagree with. The owner of the website edited and renamed it himself without my input. Please stop asserting that I added that material to the website or named it. The Cap'n (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein Thank you.

@Barney, aside from the PA nature of constantly referring to my supposedly debilitating incompetency (with no diffs of any such incompetent acts), the condition of Dunning-Kruger that you link to describes the condition "Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[1][6] with a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability because of brain injury..." I don't care whether it's technically a mental illness or a mental condition, it's inappropriate to claim an editor is mentally impaired for disagreeing with you, especially without evidence.

Your references to Vzaak's repeated accusations make no sense and have no bearing on your conduct here. Despite my arguments to the contrary, Vzaak got admins to determine it was "Fairly Likely" that I was linked to inappropriate IP activity; I was warned and respect the system enough to accept the admins' decision. Are you referring to that settled matter from last year, or to the failed attempts since then by Vzaak to get me blocked, which included an AE set aside due to a complete lack of evidence (sound familiar?) and another SPI accusation (this one rightfully dismissed) that claimed I was issuing death threats and committing crimes under an IP? Neither a settled case nor a slew of dismissed accusations makes your position any stronger, or your personal attacks any less offensive. The Cap'n (talk) 12:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz & Sandstein, I am of the same opinion as Liz that these back and forths are wasting the community's time and not improving behavior. I have no desire to find excuses to get editors blocked, whether they dislike me or not, but I've tried ignoring these personal attacks and they only escalate and turn into canvassing efforts to get me banned. If I don't respond then my name, reputation and record get misrepresented, I get AN's pushed against me on the basis of easily falsifiable claims and risk getting banned from WP from PA's run amok. I am all for Liz & Sandstein's suggestion of interaction bans for those involved (76, Barney, plus possibly JzG and Vzaak). I honestly have no interest in harassing these editors, and if I knew they weren't actively trying to get me banned I'd never again have to spend an admin's time on these things. As I recommended in my AR, I think IBANs would dramatically decrease hostility, frivolous accusations and timewasting. The Cap'n (talk) 18:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Hipocrite, the "screed" that is clearly in my name from several months back was a statement I provided to the owner of that site, of which I promptly posted notice on my Talk page for transparency (that's how most people know about it). In it I neither named or attacked any editors, but said that WP should not be about finding excuses to ban editors we disagree with. I reiterated throughout that I believed WP was better than POV hostility and would rise above this kind of squabbling. Not exactly the 95 Theses. Every one of the few other interactions I've had with that person was logged on my Talk page to demonstrate that I was not collaborating or endorsing him. After going through all that trouble to be overly transparent every step of the way, why would I then post materials on his site, not mention it, then deny involvement after the fact despite the fact it's obviously my content? Use a little logic, here. The Cap'n (talk) 19:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Hipocrite, do not misrepresent what I've said, please. I've never initiated a conflict or sought to ban editors for disagreeing with me, I've only asked admins to step in when editors ignore my attempts to be civil and make personal attacks, lie about me having TBANs, use profanity ("douche, dick-hole, shit-on-a-stick, troll, diehard retard," to name a few) and make homophobic slurs. Are you really defending those practices?

Also, how do you turn "I've made ONE statement to this person months ago and I was open about when and why" into "you're not denying you regularly supply content"? Either you're not listening or you're intentionally misrepresenting what I said, but either way I urge you to be more conscientious. In the same vein, I've said I had no connection to the Chopra death threat (that was before I ever edited there), Checkusers have said I had no connection to the death threat and admins have said I have no connection to the death threat. You've been informed of this on Talk pages and in this AE, so continuing Vzaak's implication that I was involved in the death threat incident is venturing into

WP:ASPERSIONS. Considering how many names I've been called in the past couple days in response to asking editors to be civil, I think it's a little odd that people are claiming I'm being unreasonable. The Cap'n (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

@ErikHaugen, I can take your point that questioning my competency could be relevant on an AN board, but Barney has been calling me incompetent on article talk pages, my own talk page(where I just was trying to explain that he had been editing an archive), and basically anywhere that my name comes up. He has a habit of referring to anyone who he disagrees with (ie. Liz, Littleolive oil, etc) as completely incompetent and ignorant, whether he's involved in a AE/AN or not. The Cap'n (talk) 22:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning 76.107.171.90

76.107.171.90 blocked as a normal admin action by Sandstein (hatting this section for clarity). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by 76.107.171.90

This isn’t covered under pseudoscience discretionary sanctions. The incident in question took place on Guy’s talk page and focuses on Askahrc’s recent claim that he is “investigating dicks” on Wikipedia. Pseudoscience was not discussed and the conversation focused on Askahrc’s ongoing behavioral issues and the mounting evidence that he is the meat puppet of an indefinitely blocked user. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 07:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning 76.107.171.90

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The complaint is justified on the merits. The edit at issue by 76.107.171.90 is an unacceptable personal attack (

WP:ASPERSIONS

. For these reasons, I am blocking 76.107.171.90 for two weeks.

I am doing so under normal administrator authority, because it appears to me that the edit at issue is not within the scope of discretionary sanctions. The "Pseudoscience" decision authorizes these for "all articles relating to pseudoscience and fringe science", which excludes talk pages. But the newer

WP:TBAN, is scoped broadly enough to include talk page discussions. Therefore, in my view, sanctions are in principle authorized for talk page discussions related to pseudoscience or fringe science. But the edit at issue does not mention or touch upon such matters, but is framed only as a series of personal attacks with no apparent relation to the underlying topic area or content disputes, if any. Therefore, in this respect, I am of the view that this is not actionable as an AE request. Sandstein 09:14, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

Discussion concerning Barney the barney barney

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Barney the barney barney

This is entirely frivolous complaint by Askahrc (talk · contribs) who has a history of filing such frivolous cases to the authorities.

I stand by every comment I have made about Askahrc (talk · contribs) - but not those he has now repeatedly lied about, even after being corrected.

To clarify for a second time: I do not believe that

WP:FRINGE material, and in this assessment most users probably agree with me. Askahrc apparently believes he is competent, despite generally being in a minority of one. I suggest that this self-assessment is due to the Dunning–Kruger effect

. This is not a mental illness. What is says is that those who are not competent to do something also tend to overestimate their competence to do that thing.

I'd also like to clarify my opinion that

WP:FRINGE

I'm not quite sure how Wikipedia can proceed if an assessment of a user's competence is now to be construed as a personal attack.

Ironically, given this attempt at enforcement, my opinion was intended to prevent

WP:DRAMA

.

In my opinion,

WP:NOTHERE is appropriate. Vzaak (talk · contribs

) has shown his attempts to use sockpuppets to troll.

I suggest that no clearer case of

WP:BOOMERANG exists. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

Statement by JzG

Prior discussions involving the filing party:

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Askahrc/Archive
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience: "Askahrc warned"
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience: "Askahrc (talk · contribs) is strongly admonished for using an IP address to harass other users and waste the community's time (see the SPI). Askahrc is warned that any attempt to harass other users, waste the community's time or edit logged out or with another account in contravention of WP:SOCK will result in an extended block. Askahrc is also restricted to using the Askahrc account only when editing pseudoscience or fringe science related topics and is banned from notifying any user of pseudoscience or fringe science discretionary sanctions. See the warning for further information."
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive147#Askahrc: "Tabled for now, with the understanding that there is a low bar for reporting newer disruption."
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive143#Barleybannocks, advocating for a user who was topic banned as a result of the discussion.

That's not bad for a user with fewer than 300 mainspace edits in over five years as a registered user.

The filing party also neglected to mention the fact that he was found using sockpuppets to attack Barney the barney barney, one of the two accounts against whom he requests sanctions. (Note: Taken on trust from prior discussions, I'm digging for diffs; false claims have also been made against Askahrc in the past).

I find this user's behaviour vexing. As Barney suggests, he is engaging himself in complex and difficult disputes around an area where he shows a clear lack of understanding (or perhaps outright rejection) of Wikipedia policy. Having been involved at the

Right Great Wrongs

by redressing the "balance" against fringe and pseudoscientific claims, primarily related to Sheldrake, IMO.

What we do not need is editors with virtually no article editing experience, asserting themselves to be mediators in contentious biographies. The Chopra article at the moment is subject to long walls of text from a user representing the Chopra media office, now is not a good time for the well intentioned but seriously inexperienced (the most charitable interpretation, the Dunning-Kruger effect), and it's a terrible time for a troll, which is what I am afraid I think Askahrc is.

Lack of competence, lack of experience, deliberate mischief, failure to accept Wikipedia policy - whatever the problem, I think this is a user who needs ot keep away form biographies related to fringe topics, and possibly from all fringe and pseudoscience. Guy (Help!) 12:03, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: feel free to point out what is insulting about this, I am merely pointing out the facts as I see them. This is a user who presents himself as a potential mediator, with fewer than 300 mainspace edits and a history of dispute on contentious articles. He does not understand Wikipedia well enough to understand why this is a problem, does not understand why involvement on the Sheldrake article is equivalent to involvement in the Chopra article (i.e.

WP:FRINGE and in favour of a more sympathetic treatment of an advocate of fringe science (and in the process a rather banned user) [2], now removed from the original. If that's OK by everyone then I will forget about it, no problem. What I see is someone who was marginally active for a long time then became very active in talk space just when Sheldrake started pressing for more sympathetic (and less NPOV) coverage. It sets the spidey-senses tingling. And yes, it's easy to misjudge in these cases, but it's also easy to AGF to excess. Is there a difference between a lengthy description of behaviour that may justly be represented as, at the very least, a red flag, accompanied by a very brief and clearly identified expression of personal opinion, and a blatant attack? I think there might be. Remember: we are talking about articles here that have, for a long time, seen a steady stream of newly interested and/or new users all advancing the same POV. Those of us who bother to watch them would appreciate more eyes, it would materially improve the burnout rate. Guy (Help!) 16:47, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

Sandstein is grossly mistaken in believing that it is a "personal attack" (and therefore prohibited) to observe that another editor is incompetent or even grossly incompetent. Some editors are indeed incompetent and cause no end of trouble at Wikipedia. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Roxy the dog

Although the sanctions imposed by Sandstein on 76.107.171.90 may well be covered by a liberal interpretation of the policies and guidelines of wikipedia, they are way outside the spirit of them, and should be reconsidered. It is the worst, most unjustified, admin action I have seen, in my admittedly limited experience here. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 15:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Liz

I have also been attacked by Barney, right in an arbitration request and elsewhere, but I'm not filing a complaint or adding it to this one. It is Barney's habit to treat those he doesn't respect with caustic disdain. I'm not sure if a block will change this kind of attitude.

What is more troubling is to see all of the claims and counterclaims between @76, Vzaak, The Cap'n, Barney and sometimes Guy on AN/I, AN and A/R/E. It's ridiculous for editors to look for reasons to get other editors blocked and then the second editor to file a similar complaint against the first editor another week later for harassment. I know it must be tiresome for admins to see these same parties mentioned in a complaint, in a tit-for-tat series. This needs to stop and it shouldn't be stopped by trying to get other users indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia.

It would be preferable for all editors working on topics that fall under the pseudoscience area to not "track" each other's edits and give each other a wide berth. If that is not possible because of similar interests, it is important to remember civility even when an editor questions another's competence. To repeat the fourth pillar of Wikipedia:

"Fourth pillar: Editors should treat each other with respect and civility: Respect your fellow Wikipedians, even when you disagree. Apply Wikipedia etiquette, and don't engage in personal attacks. Seek consensus, avoid edit wars, and never disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Act in good faith, and assume good faith on the part of others. Be open and welcoming to newcomers. If a conflict arises, discuss it calmly on the nearest talk pages, follow dispute resolution, and remember that there are 4,508,769 articles on the English Wikipedia to work on and discuss."

I know that every editor is aware of these words but they speak directly to the issue of respecting other editors, whether or not you agree with their position. The fourth pillar doesn't allow for exceptions for pseudoscience or Eastern Europe or Israel/Palestine, in fact, one can make a good argument that in these contentious topics, civility is even more important than in areas where there is less conflict. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Roxy, how, specifically, does a block for harassment go against "the spirit" of the policy and guidelines of Wikipedia? What makes @76's and @Barney's behavior justified? Are there specific exceptions to civility policy based on the type of articles one chooses to edit? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Hipocrite, as far as I understand it, Tumbleman lifted the content he used for that blog post (which doesn't mention any editor by name) from TheCap'n's user pages. There is also a page composed of quotes of mine, taken from discussions on talk pages, AN/I and ARBCOM, which I was neither informed of nor was my permission asked. But no one is accusing me of "collaborating" with a blocked user.

As for the SPI in November, an IP was posting discretionary sanction notices on user talk pages, an activity several of the editors commenting here have also done. The investigation concluded there was a likely a connection between the two accounts, TheCap'n was ~~given a block~~ admonished and the incident has not reoccurred. Six months later, I assume if there was newer evidence of sockpuppeting, there is a variety of editors who would not hesitate to share it. But suggesting that editors should be "waiting for him to make a mistake large enough (like sockpuppeting again) that you can civilly report", is not a helpful attitude to foster collaboration. And that should be the goal here. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:21, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Hipocrite, all I know is that TheCap'n has shared his thoughts about the Sheldrake talk page conflict, at length, on his user pages. Truthfully, I don't know where that blog post originally came from and I think it has actually been removed from the website. I can't say anything about its creation with any certainty but as far as I'm concerned, the material discussed the unfriendly climate on Wikipedia, it didn't mention any editors by name, it's gone now and, most importantly, it's off-wiki behavior so there is no verification of its origins or authorship. If it is accepted as evidence at ARBCOM, so must every comment on Wikipediocracy or other sites like that. For the record, I would feel completely differently if there had been outing involved but the post contained nothing like that. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:11, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@ErikHaugen, I think you have to consider this is not an isolated incident but part of a continuing of hostilities between editors. If it is not addressed with at least some warnings, I can guarantee that it will continue and we'll all eventually be back here at AE within a month or two. In this light, warnings and short duration blocks would hopefully be preventative. Between the cases brought to AN, AN/I and AE, I would think admins would be tired of adjudicating disputes between the same group of editors. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:30, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Vzaak, the SPI activity, in which there was seen a "likely" (but not confirmed) relationship between these two accounts occurred in November 2013 and was composed of posting 11 discretionary sanction notices on user talk pages. Not great, yes, but considering that many of the participants commenting here post DS notices on user talk pages, if this constitutes harassment, then there are a number of other parties guilty of this.

But, more importantly, this incident occurred six months ago, for a brief period of time and you speak as if TheCap'n is currently socking, that he caused great damage and that socking is currently a big problem. I question all of those conclusions. What I see is that there are continued attacks on TheCap'n no matter what he does, what articles that he chooses to edit and that there is a group of editors watching for any "slip-ups" he might make that can be used to bring him to AE or AN/I and get him blocked. No matter how this request is decided, I have no doubts that there will be a retaliatory case brought to an admin forum within the next few weeks even if TheCap'n makes NO questionable edits but based on these old charges (as has been done already several times). This cycle of charges and countercharges needs to stop and I'd rather it wasn't stopped with all parties receiving blocks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:28, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Hipocrite

Barney, don't you get it? Wikipedia doesn't care if you are collaborating off wiki with a banned user to insult and harass editors here [3]. It doesn't care if you are creating strawman sockpuppeets to try to further your side in a dispute by making your opposition look weird [4]. It cares ONLY, and I repeat this ONLY that you do not, under any circumstances, make anyone feel even a little bad - unless, of course, you are a complete fringe lunatic - then you can make people who have spent countless hours trying to make an encyclopedia useful and accurate waste countless hours because we wouldn't dare get rid of someone who was new! Now, apologize for saying that Askahrc was generally incompetent, and proceed on with ignoring everything he says while waiting for him to make a mistake large enough (like sockpuppeting again) that you can civilly report his completely disruptive actions. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Liz, do you think he lifted the text on "Next steps: The Capn," linked via cache above from Wikipedia - because we both know he certainly did not - that was written specifically for the site by The Capn himself. "Fostering collaboration" takes everyone, not just people you disagree with doing something. How does writing screeds for tumbleman's blog foster collaboration, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 17:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Askahrc: "WP should not be about finding excuses to ban editors we disagree with." Askahrc: "Please ban these editors I disagree with." At least you're not denying you regularly supply content to Tumbleman offwiki. Are you the one who told Chopra about the vandalistic death threats? Hipocrite (talk) 19:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cardamon

The term Dunning–Kruger effect does not refer to either a "mental impairment" or a "mental illness". Our article on this is good enough that this should be apparent to people who read the article. Cardamon (talk) 22:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by vzaak

Askahrc suggests the first SPI was somehow equivocal or not entirely solid.

Reality: Two admins concluded that Askahrc was sockpuppeting, and Askahrc's misconduct was officially logged at
WP:ARB/PS, "Askahrc is strongly admonished for using an IP address to harass other users and waste the community's time".[5]
There is nothing equivocal about this conclusion.

Askahrc says there are "failed attempts since then by Vzaak to get me blocked".

Reality: I have never argued that Askahrc be blocked.

Askahrc says the AE request on him was "set aside due to a complete lack of evidence".

Reality: Two admins took the evidence to be actionable, including the same admin who handled the SPI, with another admin remarking on Askahrc's deceptive behavior. The AE request was tabled for lack of recent activity from Askahrc, not dismissed, and with a "low bar" for subsequent activity.

Askahrc says the second SPI was "dismissed".

Reality: The SPI was a request for checkuser, and a checkuser was performed. This is confirmation that the evidence presented in the SPI has merit, the opposite of dismissal. A checkuser is not pixie dust. Indeed there is substantial evidence connecting Askahrc to the Abraham article, including precise location, timing, motivation, matching circumstances with his first bout of sockpuppeting, and more.

Since the tabled request, I daresay that Askahrc has not only cleared the "low bar" but has entered the stratosphere. Despite having been sanctioned for wasting the community's time, Askahrc brought another frivolous arbitration request which was curtly dismissed by the arbitrators.[6] The premise of the request is so bizarre that it seems like a prank: (a) if a person uses a sockpuppet to harass users, then the very act of catching this misconduct constitutes harassment of the person doing the harassing; (b) if someone uses a sockpuppet to inflame battleground sentiments, then the person who catches the sockpuppeteer is demonstrating battleground behavior.

Since competency has been brought up here, I'll quote the penultimate point from my response to the arbitration request:

I covered the
MOS:LQ matter which has been pointed out to Askahrc four times.[7][8][9][10]
The "fixing punctuation" Askahrc mentions was not a fix but a violation of LQ. As long as Askahrc continues to interpret a simple LQ correction as battleground or ownership behavior, there is little hope of getting across more complex guidelines and policies.

Askahrc used his arbitration request to cast evidence-free aspersions at me, which I addressed in my response at the arbitration page. He has continued this behavior at the Deepak Chopra talk page.[11] See my response there.[12] These aspersions alone are over the "low bar". Askahrc's sockpuppetry -- just look at what he was doing -- is contemptible, as are his ongoing baseless aspersions against the person who caught him sockpuppeting.

vzaak 00:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Pinging admins due to my late statement.) Sandstein, CIreland, ErikHaugen -- for more on the competence issue, see the ANI that Askahrc brought.[13] Also please examine the tabled AE request on Askahrc, as my points here assume that as background. vzaak 01:00, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone is close to believing the spin Liz has attempted to put on the sockpuppeting, I invite you to study the SPI yourself (also, the word "likely" appears nowhere in that SPI). Liz is more generally trying to frame the matter as an accusation/counter-accusation cycle. No, that is a false equivalence. Askahrc is making evidence-free aspersions, and my response is to show evidence contradicting these aspersions. When I have referenced misconduct, I show evidence. The second arbitration request brought by Askahrc, the second SPI, and most recently the aspersions at the Chopra page and at AN have all occurred since the tabled "low bar" AE request. We are talking about the sockpuppeting because Askahrc talks about the sockpuppeting in the arbitration request and the Chopra page. Askahrc continues to initiate these evidence-free aspersions. I do not wish to get involved, but when I see false claims being made, I correct them. vzaak 03:28, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Barney the barney barney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The request has merit. While the comments by Barney the barney barney at issue and on this page do not allege a mental illness on the part of Askahrc, they are noneless insulting, in that they call Askahrc "a troll", "anti-Wikipedia" and grossly incompetent. Such conduct is prohibited, see

WP:ANI discussion about conduct regarding the article Deepak Chopra, which is concerned with issues related to pseudo- or fringe science. I am of the view that Barney the barney barney should be banned from interacting with Askahrc. Because the statement by JzG above is similar in (insulting) substance to that of Barney the barney barney, if somewhat more moderate in tone, I am also considering whether a similar sanction would be appropriate with regard to JzG. What do others think?

As to the allegations by Barney the barney barney and JzG regarding misconduct by Askahrc, they are merely assertions without evidence, and are therefore, in my view, disruptive rather than useful. Sandstein 12:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

I agree with Sandstein's block of 76.107.171.90 (although I think it would have been justifiable as an AE action). I do not see any basis for sanctioning Guy who, whilst undoubtedly blunt, is not aggressive in his expression. Where he gives a negative opinion of Askahrc, he provides a clear rationale for that opinion and is not simply nakedly insulting. Barney the barney barney is more complex; whilst the evidence presented against him has been somewhat exaggerated (he did not suggest anyone has a mental disability) he is still very much out of line in both the mode and content of his remarks. Whether it requires a sanction to prevent recurrence, I am still undecided. I will, however, give Barney some advice: many administrators are sympathetic to editors who believe they are editing to maintain the 18 principles set down by ArbCom in

WP:ARBPS but you have to recognise that the more you muddy the waters with hyperbole, aggressive expression and ad hominem remarks, the more you tie administrators' hands. CIreland (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

I'd suggest that the content of the claim – that Askahrc is not competent enough to mediate – was not necessarily inappropriate in the context in which it was made: an AN discussion about whether Askahrc was the right person to be mediating. Some of the other rhetoric was over the top, but I think it's important to remember that there are situations in which discussing the editor is not inappropriate in and of itself, and this was one of them. Similarly for JzG's statement; I don't see this as being terribly inappropriate in this context, although I'm not aware of anything (at this point) that would justify further sanctions for Askahrc. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taking into consideration the discussion above, Barney the barney barney is banned for two months from interacting with Askahrc. While ErikHaugen's point that Askahrc's competence may have been an appropriate topic for discussion in this context is well taken, Barney the barney barney must be reminded that even in the (very rare) situations where it is appropriate to discuss another editor's personal merits (or lack thereof), this must be done without insults or personal attacks. I expect exemplary behavior from Barney the barney barney in this regard in the future. Sandstein 07:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Darkness Shines

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Darkness Shines

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Darkness Shines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Personal attacks and incivility:
- [14] ("fuck off, you trolling stalker")
- [15] ("as usual, pure bullshit")
- [16] ("troll")
- [17] ("trolling stalker")

Edit-warring:
- 9 May, 16:07
- 9 May, 16:39
- 9 May, 16:50 (rv-warring an obviously unreliable source back into the article, abusing Twinkle rollback, no edit-summary)
- 11 May, 13:06 (same unreliable source again)
- 12 May, 08:29 (another instantaneous blanket revert without edit-summary, abusing Twinkle rollback)
- 12 May, 08:26 (instantaneous rv without edit summary or discussion, baseless accusation of "stalking")
- 12 May, 11:43 (yet another instantaneous blanket rv, again abusing Twinkle rollback.)

Forum-shopping and refusal to get the point at
WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT
insistence on re-introducing obviously unsuitable source

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Has had 18(!) prior blocks between January 2012 and December 2013, all for personal attacks and/or edit-warring
Last AE thread about India-Pakistan topics resulted in a "final warning" against any further "edit warring or other inappropriate interaction" [19]. *Current revert-limitation in another discretionary-sanction topic area [20].

If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts )

[21]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Apparently, Darkness Shines has somehow got the idea into his mind that he can make "his" articles immune from criticism and scrutiny from me, by simply defining any edit I make to them as "stalking". He has even gone so far as to shop admins to demand an "interaction ban" for me [22].

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[23]

Discussion concerning Darkness Shines

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Darkness Shines

On 28 July 2012 I asked FPAS to stop hounding me, he refused to. Calling a self admitted stalker a stalker is not a PA, it is a cold hard fact. FPAS also seems to forget it takes two to edit war, he was removing reliably cited content from the Davis article which I restored. The accusation of forum shopping is a joke, when an editor says a source is unreliable then it goes to the RSN board, that is normal practice. Saying fuck off is not against any policy I know of, wikipedia is not censored. I requested an IBAN before at AN, and I request an IBAN now, all FPAS ever does is leave snarky edit summaries directed at me. This has been going on for years and this filing is just another aspect of harassment and the battlefield approach to editing that FPAS has towards any editor he falls out with. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein: Are you fucking dense? FPAS has already continued the edit war, 5 reverts, just outside the 24 hr mark, but sure fuck me over, after all, he is one of yours. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hipocrite: You forget, it is OK for an admin to tell people to fuck off, for a peon like mo, that is verboten. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Calypsomusic

I have seen many examples of the same and worse behaviour.

Personal Attacks:

Says editor "is being a cunt"
Calls an admin "fucking dense" and a "tit" only because the admin closed an AFD as "keep" when DS wanted "delete".

DS later apologized after being criticized, however, an editor who is reporting other editors (who have also apologized) for alleged personal attacks for sanctions should know better. --Calypsomusic (talk) 09:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement on FUCKING OFF by Hipocrite

"FUCK OFF" is not incivil, per precedent. Anyone who blocks users for telling others to FUCK OFF need to review the following: [24], and take appropriate action. Hipocrite (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How many times do I need to note users telling other users to fuck off such that it's jurisprudence? That was just the first example I found. I've never mentioned it before, to my knowledge. Hipocrite (talk) 05:41, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Drmies

What can I say. DS has a habit of making stupid statements, and their comment to me was followed by a totally half-assed sort of semi-apology, so the next time they wanted my help I didn't help. I would not make an Arb case out of it, and I'm not going to call for a block over something they said to me. DS will get blocked for it again, and then unblocked, and we'll keep on doing the civility dance. Now, the misrepresentation of sources, that's a serious matter, but again, I fail to see how ArbCom should rule over that: are we incapable of handling it? Drmies (talk) 00:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Hipocrite: that was three years ago. It's hardly jurisprudence, and no one would block someone over something from three years ago. Can you drop that stick, please? I respect you, but this is disruptive, to use adminspeak. Drmies (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cla68

I think this is a case of it taking two to tango, so please examine the behavior of both primary parties in this dispute with an objective mind. Full disclosure, I have interacted with Future Perfect at Sunrise in the past, and it was one of the most unpleasant experiences I've had in my eight years of editing Wikipedia, and I've had a lot of unpleasant experiences, FWIW. Cla68 (talk) 06:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Late statement by RegentsPark

DS does need to curb his tendency to cuss when angry and there is no question about that. Needle him long enough and he will break. FPAS, who I very much doubt is tossing and turning in bed muttering "why doesn't he like me" and "he told me to f-off", knows that very well and he has done an excellent job of exploiting that weakness. In an objective world, someone would tell FPAS to lay off DS and we could all get on with the business of editing. Blocking productive content editors doesn't seem like a good way to build an encyclopedia. --regentspark (comment) 16:20, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Darkness Shines

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The request is justified. The evidence submitted shows that Darkness Shines has engaged in edit-warring and personal attacks, and has abused the rollback facility. The complaint also highlights Darkness Shines's stupendously long list of blocks and their relatively recent warning by an administrator on this noticeboard.

It is also significant that the statement by Darkness Shines shows no understanding of how problematic their editing is. By replying "Saying fuck off is not against any policy I know of, wikipedia is not censored", they confuse the policy

WP:NPA

, which governs conduct among editors, and does in fact prohibit personal attacks such as the ones at issue here. Such errors are of high concern in an editor with 25925 edits and that long a list of blocks for misconduct, and indicate to me that little short of an indefinite block may prevent further misconduct of this sort by Darkness Shines.

What's more, Darkness Shines has not only edit-warred, but has done so to add text that misrepresents the cited source. In the edit [25] and subsequent reverts, Darkness Shines introduces the text "the commonly cited figure of 200,000 [rapes]" to replace the text "commonly cited figures", which is attributed to Dr. Geoffrey Davis quoted in the source "D'Costa 2010a" The earlier text correctly represents Dr. Davis's statement in the source, but the number of 200,000, which Darkness Shines has edit-warred to add, is not found in the cited source.

In my view, this makes clear that Darkness Shines cannot be relied upon to edit contentious and sensitive topics responsibly, and that a topic ban (at the least) is indicated, as well as removal of the rollback permission. I invite comments by others as to what the scope of that topic ban should be, and why. Under these circumstances, it is not necessary to determine whether, as the complainant alleges, that a source used by Darkness Shines is obviously unreliable, or whether Darkness Shines has engaged in other misconduct.

We must however also consider that the complainant, Future Perfect at Sunrise, has been the other party in these edit wars, and that as an administrator they should know even better that edit-warring is not permitted. I would appreciate comments by others as to which, if any, sanction is indicated with regard to Future Perfect at Sunrise. Sandstein 18:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If a content matter is under long-term dispute it is understandable that Future Perfect would take a continuing interest; that should not be described as 'stalking'. It is hard to see that DS is following a path of patient discussion that will lead to a negotiated solution on this. The disagreement has been going on since 2012. On the whole, nobody seems to have found a good response to FP's claim that Davis did not use the number 200,000 in the interview reported by D'Costa in 2010. (Her article on the interview does not contain the number 200,000). At first glance it seems like a minor rewording would avoid the possibility of any
WP:SYNTH; it seems that DS is not open to this. (The editors might agree to cite the 200,000 figure to another source, and then report Davis's view in a different sentence). Sandstein gives a good summary of the problem. It shows poor judgment on the part of DS to give us such a vivid example of battleground editing in his response to this complaint. Since a previous AE warned Darkness Shines that his future behavior would be closely watched, I think this takes it over the line. I do not yet see the case for an indefinite block, but think that other possibilities should be considered, including a topic ban and removal of rollback. EdJohnston (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

I think the two summaries above are indicative of a problem which does need to be dealt with, especially given the prior warning, edit warring, battleground behaviour and personal attacks and Darkness Shines's comment that "Saying fuck off is not against any policy I know of" indicating that they don't understand a core conduct requirement.

After reading the request, the evidence presented with it as well as some other contribs and prior warnings/discussions after blocks my opinion is that a block (of at least two months) would be in order as well as topic ban. The reason I suggest a block is that the

discretionary sanctions remedy requires us "to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment", I believe that Darkness Shines continuing to edit war, make personal attacks, and not understand that they can't say fuck off requires us to remove them from the general editing environment so that they develop a deeper understanding of policies and guidelines - primarily WP:Edit warring (see complaint) and WP:No personal attacks

(see complaint and the quote I mentioned above).

Regarding the suggested removal of the rollback userright, I can't see where Darkness Shines has abused the WP:Rollback function (as separate from the WP:Twinkle rollback function), Sandstein have I missed something? The only uses I could find of WP:Rollback were either appropriate or accidental and subsequently self-reverted. In any case, if rollback is removed I think it would be better to remove it as a normal admin action rather than as a discretionary sanction. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, the rollback was done with the user script Twinkle instead of with the standard rollback functionality, but that doesn't make it any more appropriate. It's an argument for removing Twinkle access too, though. Any opinions on Future Perfect at Sunrise's conduct? Considering that their history of past sanctions appears far less troublesome, I suggest that we should log a warning against edit-warring to Future Perfect at Sunrise only, and impose a block, rollback/Twinkle access removal and topic ban on Darkness Shines. Sandstein 21:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not convinced that removing the rollback userright or that directing Darkness Shines not to Twinkle would be appropriate. Instead I think a warning that they should always explain reverts except when the revert is for an obvious reason and would be a minor edit (obvious vandalism, BLP violations and so on). I have implemented a two month block on Darkness Shines due to this comment which flies in the face of what we are discussing and shows that they do not understand what is acceptable and what is not. This doesn't preclude further sanctions (such as the topic ban) only that the behaviour is unacceptable and Darkness Shines needs to be removed from the editing environment. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Future Perfect at Sunrise I'll have a deeper look into their conduct in this topic area later on when I have some more time. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:33, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen misconduct from Future Perfect at Sunrise which would warrant anything other than a logged warning, also noting that they were previously "aware" of

WP:ARBIPA disc. sanctions due to having previously notified users. I believe a logged warning is appropriate as they are an admin and should know better than to edit war. I haven't seen anything which demonstrates a sanctionable pattern in their contribs over the past few months. If editors such as Cla68

believe that there is evidence please submit an AE request so we can more thoroughly review the evidence.

So far we have a TBAN from

WP:ARBIPA related pages as well as the already imposed block for Darkness Shines. I'm still not convinced that we should remove rollback or direct the removal of Twinkle as I don't believe there is enough evidence to establish a pattern of misuse (compared with appropriate use of which there is a pattern) outside this one edit war. We also have a logged warning for edit warring for Future Perfect at Sunrise. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:28, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

I agree with this assessment. The other sanctions will hopefully make the rollback issue moot. Sandstein 10:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SPECIFICO

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian_economics#SPECIFICO_topic-banned :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

May 12
Stephan Molyneux is a person broadly associated with the Ludwig von Mises Institute. A quote from the editor of Mises.org is in the lead paragraph, the subjects books have been discussed on the site many times, and he appears on the Mises Wiki
.

May 9 [26][27][28] SPECIFICO made several edits to the same article a couple days ago, and was informed on May 9 that the subject of this article falls within his topic ban.
May 10 Edited Bryan Caplan, a person who is broadly associated with LvMI as noted in this message to SPECIFICO warning him of the subjects connection by User:Srich32977.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[http://Difflink1 Date] Explanation
[http://Difflink2 Date] Explanation

If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts )

Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Based on a quick look at other aspects of his editing activity and talk page conversations, I feel like this editor might be becoming hostile with regards to articles right on the fringe of his topic ban, almost as if he is testing to see where the electric fence is rather than making an effort to broaden his editing activities to other areas. -- Netoholic @ 05:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I need to add some additional clarification onto the initial request, since it sounds like we have very different understandings of what "associated with" means. Molyneux has interacted quite frequently with members of the Mises Institute staff, and so I would qualify that as "associated with" the Mises Institute. SPECIFIC was topic-banned in order to prevent him from editing about the LvMI and its staff because he's shown a significant bias *against* them, and so now what he's doing is editing articles of people who are connected with the staff, in order to try and show them a negative light. Some prominent interactions between Molyneux and Mises staff: interviewed by Redmond Weisenberger of Mises Canada, interview with Senior Fellow Walter block, several interviews with Jeffrey Tucker, recently left as editor of mises.org [29][30], interviews with Senior Fellow Tom Woods [31], interaction with Senior Fellow David Gordon, and much more which I can provide if needed. So what does " topic-banned from editing articles and other pages relating to the Ludwig von Mises Institute or persons associated with it" mean if it doesn't apply to a person that associates with senior leadership of the Institute? -- Netoholic @ 06:15, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

User was notified. --Netoholic @ 05:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning SPECIFICO

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SPECIFICO

I really have nothing to add concerning the Molyneux allegation. I'm puzzled however. Here we are at an Arbcom page and in her section below, @Carolmooredc: issues yet another of the unsupported and false personal attacks that got her banned -- "So he can continue the biased editing of bios..." Is that OK? At the very least it seems wildly disrespectful of Arbcom and wasteful of its time and attention. If this were a court of law, Carolmooredc would be cited for contempt. Why is this behavior tolerated on WP. How many editors just get sick and tired of it and leave the Project? SPECIFICO talk 13:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by S.Rich

I will let Specifico post the diffs regarding an earlier notification and its' resolution. IMO the article on Molyneux is not a Mises.org-related topic. What others may have posted about Molyneux on the Mises.org website is their business, but having done so does not make Molyneuz a Mises.org related person. (Please note that I have absolutely no affection or alliance with Specifico. I posted evidence against him during the Arbcom. And I posted the notice to him about Caplan as a Mises.org related person) -– S. Rich (talk) 05:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)05:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: It is not a big deal, but Caplan is associated with Mises.org. See: [32]. He published in the Mises.org journal Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. (This is the opposite of them posting some of his stuff, he submitted it for publication.) I don't disagree with the edit that Specifico did (following my lead in removing "influenced" names from the infobox), but TBANs include the good edits, the bad edits, and the ugly edits. So, bottom line, the Molyneux edits do not violate the TBAN and Specifico has been properly notified re Caplan. – S. Rich (talk) 05:57, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: Given the two admin comments below, it's water under the dam or over the bridge by now. But I do see where Caplan did an original posting at Writing on the Wall. This is more than a passive involvement with Mises.org. Again, no big deal. I posted the notice re Caplan and I certainly did not want it to become part of a very weak case for arbcom enforcement. I seriously doubt that Specifico's name will show up here again. – S. Rich (talk) 06:28, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

I'm pretty sure that at least

WP:BLP and was a good edit.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:44, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not as familiar with this

Stephan Molyneux

fellah but the link there to vMI also appears pretty weak. So they wrote about him in their Wiki. So what?

More generally, it should be kept in mind that the topic ban is in regard to the von Mises Institute and not from Economics in general, or even Liberterianism or even Austrian economics in general. Of course by a sort of six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon any economist can be "linked" to vMI through a few steps. But I note that the topic ban remedy explicitly *excludes* Austrian economics.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@S.Rich - I don't think publishing in QJAE is sufficient to consider somebody as "associated" with vMI. Note also that the Caplan article you link to, as well as his other QJAE article "Probability, Common Sense, and Realism: A Reply to Hülsmann and Block" were replies to other articles. The original article which seemed to start this intellectual conversation was "The Austrian Search for Realistic Foundations" which was published in the Southern Economic Journal which has no affiliation with vMI. What happened here (I'm pretty, though not 100% sure) is that Caplan published an article on Austrian economics somewhere else, a couple vMI folks wrote about it in QJAE and then QJAE gave Caplan a chance to respond, as is often done in such cases.

Basically, no association with vMI.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:19, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And this: but Caplan is associated with Mises.org. See: [31] - that just shows that they wrote him up on their Wiki, same as Molyneux.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm... isn't Carolmooredc's statement below a violation of their topic ban [34] (the and other pages relating to the Austrian school of economics, the Ludwig von Mises Institute, or persons associated with them, either living or deceased part)? Does it need a separate AE report? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think Ed's suggestion below, which makes the topic ban more precise is a very good one. If SPECIFICO violates the precise version of the topic ban, there'll be little wiggle room for Wikilawyering or controversy and sanctions can be imposed with little drama. At the same time, additional information as to what the topic ban actually covers can help the editor avoid violating the topic ban on accident or in some trivial manner.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carolmooredc

I've already been counseled privately that I should not play games with my topic ban by quoting Murray Rothbard or other Austrian economists on purely political topics in overwhelming political articles. Therefore I have to wonder about SPECIFICO's topic ban being narrowly construed to what he continues to assert it is: "official members" of the Mises.org/faculty as listed there. So he can continue the biased editing of bios of those who aren't on that list? Biased editing got him the topic ban, remember.
For example, at this edit SPECIFICO removed info about Peter Schiff who is not a faculty member but a search of Mises.org shows he does events for them, writes for them and is promoted by some of their other writers. SPECIFICO worked a lot on the Schiff article in the past so he should know that. Moreover, his edits already are starting conflicts over BLPs, which is why this Austrian Economics Arbitration happened in the first place. If I am to be broadly construed because I lost my temper with biased editing that Admins refused to deal with despite numerous complaints from several editors, I'd like to see others' topic bans also broadly construed so they do not continue biased editing which causes conflicts. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:45, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gaijin42)

Carols block seems awfully harsh and inappropriate. She was discussing the topic ban and how it was applied, not the topic directly. This seems to clearly fall under the "addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum" bit of the banning policy. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:27, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SPECIFICO

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The persons at issue have, according to the complaint, all been mentioned or covered by this institute repeatedly, and one of them has published in a journal published by the institute. I don't quite see, yet, how this adds up to them being associated with the institute, even broadly construed. As such, I don't yet see how these edits are wirhin the scope of the topic ban. Sandstein 05:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sandstein on this one, I don't see that any of the diffs presented breach the topic ban and I don't see misconduct which would warrant extending the sanction as mentioned in the final decision. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the additional statements above, it's still not clear to me that these persons should be considered "associated with" the institute in the sense of the remedy at issue. That would certainly be the case for an institutional or permanent relationship of some sort, such as employment or regular contract work. But I know too little about the intricacies of the relationships among these academics to be able to say with the certainty required for sanctions that this constitutes a violation of the topic ban, even though we may well have a fringe case here. If editors believe that we are construing the topic ban too narrowly, they may ask the Committee to clarify its scope via
WP:ARCA. Sandstein 08:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

As Volunteer Marek correctly points out, the statement by Carolmooredc above violates Carolmooredc's topic ban from "pages relating to the Austrian school of economics ... or persons associated with them", because the people mentioned in this request are described in their articles as economists from the Austrian school of economics. The statement by Carolmooredc is also not a necessary participation in a dispute resolution proceeding because the conduct of Carolmooredc was not previously at issue here. I note also that, as SPECIFICO points out, Carolmooredc's statement contains unsupported allegations of misconduct against others, which is disruptive. In enforcement of the topic ban, I am blocking Carolmooredc for two weeks. Sandstein 15:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Specifico's ban phrasing is "topic-banned from editing articles and other pages relating to the Ludwig von Mises Institute or persons associated with it, either living or deceased..." (plus other words that allow editing on Austrian economics generally). It would be silly to ban Specifico from writing about anyone that a Mises publication ever wrote an article on. I agree that Carolmooredc's post in this AE violated her ban. Bryan Caplan used the Mises Daily once in 2010 as a publication venue for one of his articles. This does not make him their associate. Still less does a publication in the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics create that association. To create a usable boundary for the sanction, it might be better to let 'a person associated with the Mises Institute' be defined as 'a person listed on the Mises website as one of the senior fellows, faculty members, or staff.' EdJohnston (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

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