Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/July 2008

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:59, 26 July 2008 [19].

Boy Scouts of America

Nominator: --—— Gadget850 (Ed)

previous FAC

Self-nominator --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• 'Units are led entirely by volunteers, supported by local councils using both paid professionals and volunteers." - comma -> "and"?
• "The YMCA was an early promoter of social welfare and other reforms involving young men that focused on programs of mental, physical, social and religious development." could be better phrased as "The YMCA was an early promoter of reforms involving young men, such as social welfare, that focused in programs of mental, physical, social and religious development." The former could be misread more easily, methinks.
• Does the MOS have anything on U.S. versus US? Seems to me that every other acronym in the article is sans periods.
• "the Woodcraft Indians started by Ernest Thompson Seton in 1902,[7] and the Sons of Daniel Boone founded by Daniel Carter Beard in 1905." - why the serial comma? It's only two items in a list.
• "Several small local Scouting programs for boys started independently in the U.S. soon after— most of these later merged with the BSA after it was formed." - is the "after it was formed" really necessary? It's fairly obvious that it couldn't merge with anything before it came into existence.
• '"... to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values ..."' - I'm fairly sure the ellipses after the phrase aren't needed. Additionally, the other two quotes don't have ellipses before them, either, and I'm fairly sure consistency should be maintained.
• "Later, in 1937, Deputy Chief Scout Executive George J. Fisher expressed the BSA's mission, "Each generation as it comes to maturity has no more important duty than that of teaching high ideals and proper behavior to the generation which follows"" - should the comma after "mission" not be a semicolon?
• "These policies are controversial and are considered by some to be unfair." - the reference is to an organisation which considers exactly that. "Some" is vague and isn't really upheld by the reference.
• "The organization's legal right to have these policies has been upheld repeatedly by both state and federal courts." - in the reference given, only three cases are described, and only one can really be described as upholding the legal right mentioned in the article.

More later, possibly. Interesting reference style, by the way. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply
  • 'Units are led entirely by volunteers, supported by local councils using both paid professionals and volunteers." - comma -> "and"?
    • Changed comma to "who are"
  • "The YMCA was an early promoter of social welfare and other reforms involving young men that focused on programs of mental, physical, social and religious development." could be better phrased as "The YMCA was an early promoter of reforms involving young men, such as social welfare, that focused in programs of mental, physical, social and religious development." The former could be misread more easily, methinks.
    • Changed to "The YMCA was an early promoter of reforms for young men with a focus on social welfare and programs of mental, physical, social and religious development."
  • Does the MOS have anything on U.S. versus US? Seems to me that every other acronym in the article is sans periods.
    • Per
      Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations)
      , U.S. more common in American English.
  • "the Woodcraft Indians started by Ernest Thompson Seton in 1902,[7] and the Sons of Daniel Boone founded by Daniel Carter Beard in 1905." - why the serial comma? It's only two items in a list.
    • Fixed
  • "Several small local Scouting programs for boys started independently in the U.S. soon after— most of these later merged with the BSA after it was formed." - is the "after it was formed" really necessary? It's fairly obvious that it couldn't merge with anything before it came into existence.
    • Fixed.
  • '"... to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values ..."' - I'm fairly sure the ellipses after the phrase aren't needed. Additionally, the other two quotes don't have ellipses before them, either, and I'm fairly sure consistency should be maintained.
    • Fixed.
      • Comment: As this is a quotation fragment, I believe the article did comply with
        WP:ELLIPSES in its original version, to indicate that portions of the original quotation were omitted. Also, with regard to the Fisher quote (below), it is customary in American English to introduce the speaker's or writer's quotation with a comma (or sometimes a colon), not a semicolon. JGHowes ^talk - 04:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
        ]
  • "Later, in 1937, Deputy Chief Scout Executive George J. Fisher expressed the BSA's mission, "Each generation as it comes to maturity has no more important duty than that of teaching high ideals and proper behavior to the generation which follows"" - should the comma after "mission" not be a semicolon?
    • Fixed.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I'm a little confused about this article still, but I think that it has improved over the course of this FAC. I still would like to have those 2007 membership figures instead of 2006. Changed to neutral, if that's possible for an FA. :) --
  (§peak to me) 18:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Reply If you have specific concerns, please list them— if you are confused, others may be as well. I finally found the full 2007 numbers with a bit of help, so this has been updated. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support It's even better than the last time!Sumoeagle179 (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - A lot of my points on the previous FAC have not been addressed. Besides that, the final comment about their being a large amount of literature on the BSA not being included needs to be remedied. A lot of the references are primary, which isn't the best. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind listing what concerns are still outstanding? I think there is some confusion over that. The BSA refs are mostly about internal organization on the BSA and BSA is pretty much the sole source for that info. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, its not. I would suggest you find a major university library and perform a search. Just going to WorldCat, I found these immediately: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and on and on and on. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finance has been expanded. Here are the references in my collection: Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Resources. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing the specific references you listed:

• 1- The Boy Scouts : an American adventure

In my personal library; used as a source

• 2- On my honor: Boy Scouts and the making of American youth

Available at a local library; I checked it out again because it is relevant to improving the Impact section as recommended by other comments.

• 3- Story of the Boy Scouts

Appears to be about Scouting in the UK

• 4- Get off my honor : the assault on the Boy Scouts of America, Hans Zeiger

I am reluctant to use this. Zeiger is militantly pro-BSA, his columns are vitriolic and often historically inaccurate and this book is even more so. You can preview it at Google Books.[20] It might work into the Impact section, with care.

• 5- Building character in the American boy

In my personal library; used as a source. Does an excellent job of discussing the origins and early operation of the BSA into the context of American culture of the time.

• 6- Building a popular movement; a case study of the public relations of the Boy Scouts of America

Available online, already used it to support the statement about the progressive movement.

• 7- Scouting for the truth : ethical culture in the Boy Scouts of America

Thesis only available from Penn State

I had already searched the University of Virgina and the James Madison University library systems; I found several items that are interesting, but have no relevance here. The best bibliography of Scouting material is at *Paxtu: The International Web Site for the History of Guiding & Scouting. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Impact on American life section (I chose one randomly) needs work. Some random comments;

• "The term "Boy Scout" is used to generally describe someone who is earnest and honest, or who helps other cheerfully; it can also be used as a pejorative, sarcastic term" - it sounds like it is used sarcastically to describe someone who is earnest and honest... is that what's intended? I think you need to distinguish to two possible uses better.
• "Over two-thirds of all astronauts have had some type of involvement in Scouting" - seems randomly thrown in... what's it got to do with the prior sentence?
• Indeed, the entire first paragraph is just random praise of the Scounts thrown in with very little context. I'm concerned that there is barely any negative commentary in this section.
• "Scouts have been urged to "Do a Good Turn Daily"" - you'll need a ref for this wording (quote)
• And how is the image in this section relevant?

—Giggy 11:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. --Una Smith (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Too much content of this article is (apparently) outside its scope. For example, content about the
   Scout Movement
   , "Scouting", and "scouting": this content should be removed or should be related directly to BSA.
2. This article also lacks significant content that is within its scope. For example, content on the origins of BSA itself.
3. Sources are inadequate; they are selected primarily from within BSA's own literature.
4. POV is not neutral. This is related to the biased selection of sources.

• Reply I am just so confused...
• Too much content of this article is (apparently) outside its scope. For example, content about the
  Scout Movement
  , "Scouting", and "scouting": this content should be removed or should be related directly to BSA.
  • The BSA is one national movement within the broader international Scout movement. Scout Movement as such is used once; Scouting is used multiple times to refer to the BSA Scouting movement; scouting—referring to military, sports or other scouting—is never used.
• This article also lacks significant content that is within its scope. For example, content on the origins of BSA itself.
  • Please define the missing content.
  • As a contributing editor, you added content that was later removed. If that is the issue here, then lets discuss it at Talk:Boy Scouts of America#Origins.
• Sources are inadequate; they are selected primarily from within BSA's own literature.
  • Of 86 references, 31 are directly from the BSA. Much of this is in the organization section, as there is very little third-party material on the internal BSA organization. If this use of source material is a problem then we will remove the related content.
• POV is not neutral. This is related to the biased selection of sources.
  • The article is intended to introduce the BSA to readers who are not familiar with the organization. If there is content that is missing, not accessible or is biased, please point it out so that we can correct it.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Well done in a lot of ways, but I have to agree that some things are missing. I agree both that the history section needs more on the BSA itself, and there are some neutrality concerns. For example, consider the following passage:
  • One of the more visible methods of Cub Scouting is the uniform that gives each boy a level of identity within the den, the pack and the community. The boys learn teamwork by meeting and working together in a den of eight to ten boys under adult leadership. They learn and apply the ideals codified in the Cub Scout Promise and the Law of the Pack, [30] and in the Character Connections program that develops the core values of citizenship, compassion, cooperation, courage, faith, health and fitness, honesty, perseverance, positive attitude, resourcefulness, respect and responsibility.
• This reads like a press release straight from the BSA, and doesn't have a logical flow (how do the uniforms relate to learning teamwork or any of the other stuff?). This is one example of a problem that exists in several sections. I also agree in part with the above comment that the sourcing is not broad enough - the BSA itself and Usscouts.org (a site run by Scout leaders) are the only sources for large swathes of the article. (Also footnote 24 is missing a publisher) Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:59, 26 July 2008 [21].

Space Pilot 3000

Nominator(s): Stardust8212

This article has been a "Good Article" for some months now and I feel the necessary changes have been made to move to the next level. I believe the main issues presented in the most recent peer review have been addressed and I hope that I will be able to address any further issues satisfactorily during this process. Thank you for your time in reviewing this article. Stardust8212 01:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments regarding MoS compliance.
• In the "Continuity" section, images shouldn't be left-aligned under section headers, although given the small amount of text in the section, I know that might be hard to avoid.
• In its initial airing the episode had "unprecedented strong numbers" with a Nielsen rating of 11.2/17 in homes and 9.6/23 in adults 18-49. "18-49" should have an en dash instead of a hyphen.
• The Futurama premiere was watched by more people than either its lead-in show (The Simpsons) or the show following it (The X-Files) and it was the number one show among men aged 18-49 and teenagers for the week. Likewise.

Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 01:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I think I've fixed the dashes, I'm terrible with dashes though so it's equally likely that I fouled them up. I tried a couple different layouts for the continuity section to address your concern but they all looked pretty bad, anything that is right aligned pops down below the infobox and moving the images below the first paragraph moves them away from the relevant text and interferes with the section below. The only "good" option I can come up with is to switch the production section with the continuity section, then the images could be right aligned without as much infobox interference but I'm not sure I want to change the article structure to deal with a pretty minor style issue. If you have a better idea I would love to hear it. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Stardust8212 02:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yep, the dashes look better. I also tried a new format for the images, but feel free to revert if you don't like it. Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 13:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I appreciate the suggestion but I reverted it, there was the same problem with the images not being next to the text they are discussed in (at 1600x1200 they move all the way down next to the Broadcast and Reception section) and also the label of "Scenes from Space Pilot 3000" isn't technically correct as the second image is from a later episode. Here's an idea, could the images be placed at the bottom of the plot section on the left side so that they still align with the proper text but are not actually under the section header? I'll try that now, I think it's a bit better.Stardust8212 14:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment I am unconvinced

Hmmm, I think it does satisfy it, a single image cannot portray that the exact same scene is shown in two different episodes but changed to show a change in continuity. Since the article specifically discusses the change it seems appropriate to show this change. Both images are low resolution so I don't think 3b is an issue either. Stardust8212 14:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed! I was looking at the images on an old LCD screen, and they didnt come out too well, you are correct both are needed. Fasach Nua (talk) 15:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I think "Cultural references" should really come before "Broadcast and reception". Also, (in B&R)
  IGN.com should be in italics. Gran² 11:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

OK, all done. Thanks! Stardust8212 13:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—Seems decent. The lead is a little short, but then so too is the article. I only saw a few issues that I couldn't immediately address:

• As Futurama is a U.S. production, shouldn't one of the episode titles be "Love's Labors Lost in Space"? Or am I mistaken about the origin?
• "...time is seen passing outside the window until reaching the year 3000. This is a parody of a similar scene in the film The Time Machine." How is this scene a "parody"?
• Please clarify why "olde fortran malt liquor" is an inside joke. (per Olde English 800 perhaps?)

Thanks.—RJH (talk) 22:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for your comments, I will see what I can do to address them. As for the episode title
  Love's Labours Lost so it uses the English spelling, there has been considerable confusion over this as can be seen on that article's talk page archive however the title itself can be confirmed on the DVD. I'll see what I can do about your other points (though it may take me a couple days, visiting family over the weekend). Stardust8212 23:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• After verifying with the audio commentary I have changed the wording to say the scene was inspired by The Time Machine rather than parodying it. I have also added some further commentary about Olde Fortran to hopefully clarify this point. Stardust8212 22:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The prose is really awkward. These are just the first few examples:

• "It also sets the stage for many of the events to follow in the series, foreshadowing plot points that are not revealed until later in the show’s run." "for many of the events to follow in the series" could be "future events". "Foreshadowing plot points that are not revealed until later in the show's run." - By definition, foreshadowing is something that isn't "revealed" until later.
• "In general the episode received good reviews; often contrasting it to Groening’s other series, The Simpsons." This is just a weird sentence.
• "He is defrosted in what is now New New York City one thousand years later, on December 31, 2999" could be "He is defrosted on December 31, 2999, in what is now New New York City."
• "Refusing to accept this...." "to accept this" is redundant.

These types of mistakes appear throughout the article. Also, the images are throwing off the text format in both of my monitor resolutions (1024x768 and 1680x1050). Could they be moved somewhere else?-Wafulz (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like someone went through and did a basic copyedit. However, the writing is still really awkward. I think someone uninvolved with the article should have a look.-Wafulz (talk) 15:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for not noting it here, I am trying to work these issues just some real life issues have kept me from having as much time to work on it as I would like, I will try to find a fresh copy editor, it is not something I am very good at myself. Stardust8212 16:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked a couple editors who might be interested to copyedit, hopefully this will help bring the article to your standards. As for the images looking awful...I fully agree. I personally liked the original layout[22] but the first comment here informed me that images apparently just aren't done that way (even if it does look better :-P) so this is the best alternative that has come up, I'm open to other suggestions. Stardust8212 22:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose — Definitely GA quality, but not up to FA standards. The lead is short, and I don't really like the use of images in the article. Needs a screenshot that appropriately illustrates the story content of the episode. (
  talk) 02:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC))[reply
  ]

• Do you have a problem with the images that are there or do you just think there needs to be another image? How about something like Image:Futurama - The Future.jpg? I will see what I can do about the lead. Stardust8212 02:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perfect! (
    talk) 12:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC))[reply
    ]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:19, 25 July 2008 [23].

India House

Nominator(s): rueben_lys (talk · contribs)

I'm nominating the

• What makes http://www.bhavans.info/heritage/champakchatto.asp a reliable source?

Bhavans info is published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. If this is not deemed reliable, I am sure I'll be able to find other sources. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, that looks reasonably reliable. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The JOglekar, Jaywant D. reference is published by lulu.com, which is a vanity press. What makes this a reliable source?

Give me half an hour, I'll replace this. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joglekar references now substituted and text altered where appropriate. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise sources looked good, links checked out with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

• Comment Why is the "see also" in "Nationalist movement" section at the bottom of the section? Why not put it at the top? I think that's where they typically go.
  talk) 19:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The nationalist movement section already had it at the bottom, as were all the other see also templates, save one. I have (now) put the see also sections at the bottom of every section, which I think is consistent. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments
  • Image:3411.jpg – do you know when this was published? Savarkar lived until 1966, so it's quite possible that the image doesn't fall under the public domain in India. Speaking of which, you might want to check the public domain status of all other Savarkar images. Some of these images don't include dates either. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • fair use
    ? It was published in 1909, hence public domain.
  • For journal publications, do not include the journal, issue number and page numbers in the "title" parameter. There are separate parameters for those items. Please see {{Harvard reference}} for more. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 19:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give me half an hour, I'll sort this out. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 20:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Savarkar image has been removed, the TIS template changed to {{

PD-US-1923-abroad}}, journal template sorted. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

• [8][9][10][11][12] -- why do five references need to be used for such non-controversial and obvious information taught in class nine at schools? One or two would be more than enough.
• Watch out for overlinking. Shyamji Krishna Varma and Hindu-German Conspiracy are linked twice in the lead alone. There's no need to link UK, US, Europe, India more than once in the entire article (even that isn't necessary, if you think about it).
• Rationalise the use of "Main article" and "See also" as they affect the appearance of the article by creating white spaces. Often they are mostly unnecessary as the links could be incorporated in the prose itself. indopug (talk) 07:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: i like to support.--Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 08:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Indopug.

You may find the statement non-controversial, but I know a number of people may take exception to the notion that political and social unification was a result of the company's or the Raj's work. Moreover, others will also suggest that India was already an entity under the various pre-company kingdoms without considering or giving due weight to the the changes in the 1800s. The referencs therefore help to focus the argument to the Raj period and cites references so that such arguments are not raised and any doubts are clarified. The reference literature should direct the reader's apetite for more info.

I'll sort out the overlinking as you suggest, give me a few hours, since I may also need to edit afew more lines as well.

Rationalisation of template: ditto. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Krishna Varma and HGC links now rationalised, and main article templates reduced to where only brief outlines are given and larger main articles exists. See also templates retained where topic is relevant but not discussed or mentioned. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewing only image licensing: Image:Image delegates INC1885.jpg, Image:Shyamji Krishna Varma.jpg, Image:Chatto01.jpg, Image:Champakraman Pillai.jpg need information on when they were published. --NE2 11:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Image:Image delegates INC1885.jpg, published I believe 1885- British Library (BL) collection. Moving here catalogue Reference: T10951.

Image:Chatto01.jpg is of Virendranath Chattopadhyaya, who died in 1937. It is therefore definitely taken before that date. Moreover the photo is from a personal collection and the owner (who may be linked to User:BobClive) has not made any claims. If this is still a problem, I'll get in touch with the uploader to sort this out.

Image:Champakraman Pillai.jpg- Pillai also died in 1934. So I am certain it was before this time. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What matters is the date of publication, not the date taken. If it is unpublished, a different set of rules applies (year of death of the copyright holder plus some large number of years). --NE2 15:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I can get in touch with Pritwindranath Mukherjee or Dwaipayanc to see if the copyright can be copylefted. I can revomve the c.r. pILLAI img of needed. Give me some time to sort out this img issue. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re

Images:

I have emailed afew people to look for free licensed images and for permission for the images already under use in the page. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe P Mukherjee granted permission to use the Chatto image. I am awaiting an email. But User:BobClive has communicated to me that this is fine. I am awaiting a reply for Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan on Champak and Krishna Varma image. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I now have permission to use Image:Chatto01.jpg. I am still awaiting response from Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Is it at all possible to use the two images under fair use? rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 10:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I now have permission from Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan to use the Champakaraman Pillai image. I will change the license in a short while. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image of Shyamji Krishna Varma replaced with a Historic image of Cama with flag in 1907. Fair use rationale. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until the writing improves. This is an important article. It still needs work to meet the criteria.

• Are you sure it's "The India House" and not just "India House"? In fact, now I see the second half-way down the lead.
• I'm finding the clumps of multiple reference numbers very intrusive. For example, why three refs for a relatively uncontentious statement—and in the lead, too, where we want to capture readers' attention with minimal clutter: "India House rapidly developed into a centre for intellectual and political activism, a meeting place for radical Indian nationalists in Britain.[2][3][4]". And this porcupine: "Nationalism had been on the rise in India throughout the last decades of the 1800s as a result of the social, economic and political changes that were instituted in the country through the greater part the Century. The result was the realisation and refinement of the concept of Indian identity.[9][10][11][12][13]". No; ration them to the most important or turn into notes, or something. There are reference gurus around who might be able to help. And I see reference duplications in consecutive sentences; our readers will cope with a rationing in these cases.
• Talking of clutter, there's a lot of unnecessary linking. MOSLINK and CONTEXT say drop the linking of well-known geographical names, such as India, the United States, and here, Europe. This will allow your high-value links to breathe. Why not remove the date autoformatting, which MOSNUM no longer encourages?
• Can you pipe the links so the spacing of people's initials doesn't clash? "V.V.S." "M. P. T." etc. Me, I hat the spacing, but the guide says either is OK, unfortunately.
• "through the greater part the Century"—No.
• Start of section: "From very early on, the Congress also sought to inform"—get rid of "also", please, and it will be stronger. Can you audit the whole text for "also"? It's all over the place. Use only if absolutely necessary.
• Whoever said to put "however" in the middle of clauses deserves to be shot. "In its aims, however, the committee was". Tell the readers the new angle at the start, please. Same for "Therefore" and other angle-words.

• I'm planning to do a full copyedit of the article today or (probably) tomorrow. I just wanted to quibble, however, with this request. Strunk & White, indeed, insist that it is not to come first in the sentence or clause. In the case of this sentence, I prefer: "The British organisation, however, was largely unsuccessful in its aims, prompting socialists including Henry Hyndman to advocate the adoption of more radical approaches." This would also remove some of the commas which currently overburden the sentence. – Scartol • Tok 16:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And lots more. These are only random examples from the top. The whole text needs therapy. TONY (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments., and I am glad you point out this is a very important article. But on the points you raise-

• • The appears to me to be the correct usage since India House is also a specific noun.
  • The clumps of reference you mention, if I am correct, you're referring to multiple references. The lead section I had increased the number of references after comments during peer review. For the other parts, I have explained above why I have given multiple references in the sentence you highlight. What seems uncontentious to you may appear heiniously PoV to others, and I know plenty of people who will throw that sentence at your face as well as mine. I wanted to make sure that (and where other multiple references have been given) statements which may appear contentious are supported by strong references. Let me direct you to Talk:India archives from June-July 2007, Talk:British Raj arhives between February and May 2008 archives and Talk:Indian independence movement for example, where comments were made suggesting eg that revolutionary movement for Indian independence is played up these days and was infact non-existent("twiddling their thumbs" according to one editor), or that Hindu right wingers and Savarkar's supporters these days make hooha about the radical movement ("teeming with Hindu right"), or on the other extreme British rule in India and its directors in Britain were nothing but bloodthirsty wolves which did nothing but rape India (equated to "Nazi Germany") etc etc. And these comments are editors who participate in the WP:IND project quite avidly and do work very hard. So Tony, you think it's uncontentious, the next guy who comments might just slap PoV tag on the article.
  • Link etc will be sorted out by myself later today. Pipe link for names, allright, but this is getting irritatingly confsing, one man's MOS seems to be another's eyesore.
  • "Greater part of the century- No" Why???
  • I am glad you've suggested the recommendations. But just leaving it at lots more doesnot help since to me the text would appear perfect, and it has been copyedited by another copyeditor as well. It will really help if you point which bits you disagree with. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to address the specific points that you have raised. I could not find any "therefore"s, but I have trimmed the references, rationalised and alter text from "also", and trimmed the number of links. The shortened names have been piped without space. I will have a look through the text, but as I have explained before, specific examples would help a lot more than generalised comments. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 16:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have made requests to a number of editors in

WP:PRV to have a look at the article especially with c/e and prose. Some have already started helping out, and also made suggestions. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

I am not sure what is the best picture that may be added, since the most appropriate would be one of Shyamji Krishna Varma or V.D. Savarkar, but a free or appropriately licensed one I have not found. The pixel issue escaped my mind completely, I will sort this in an hour. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have now added a collage to the top right hand corner, pixel specifications have now been undone

Reluctant oppose I struck my image concerns, thanks. While this is fairly well written and a fascinating topic, there are too many concerns, mostly with language and refs for it to earn my support at this time:

• In the lead, a direct quote is uncited ...was a noted platform for anti-colonial writing and was banned in India during the Raj as "seditious literature".
• There are several places in the article where articles seem to be missing or odd, some examples (not an exhaustive list) follow:
  • India House was both [the?] origin and [a?] "point of support" for a number of noted Indian revolutionaries and nationalists...
  • With the foundations of [the?] IHRS, Krishna Varma began a scheme for scholarships to Indian students...
  • Since the name is "The Indian Sociologist" (TIS), italics like "the Indian Sociologist" are wrong
• Awkward and unclear India House became the focus of Scotland Yard and the nascent Indian Political Intelligence Office's work against Indian revolutionaries, but it ceased to be a potent organisation after its liquidation in the wake of the 1909 assassination ... It was the focus of all of Scotland Yard(??), or was it a focus, or was it the focus of a Scotland Yard investigation?
• Another direct quote without a ref The "British committee of the Congress" published a periodical titled simply India, which provided a platform for moderate (or loyalist) opinion and demands, while keeping the British public informed about the Indian situation.
  • Now it is "The British committee of the Congress published a periodical titled India, which provided a platform for moderate (or loyalist) opinion and demands, while informing the British public about the Indian situation.[15]" but I think this does not follow
    Wikipedia:MOS#Italics Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Needs a ref It was at this time, during the political upheaval caused by the partition of Bengal, that the first foundations of India House were laid in London by a nationalist Indian lawyer, Shyamji Krishna Varma. Also it is unlcear to me if this means they literally built the physical house (laid the foundations) or if this is more of a metaphor - if the latter, perhaps a better word choice is called for ...that India House was founded in London by a nationalist Indian lawyer... perhaps?
• Awkward However, differences with Crown authority and British resident to the states led to Krishna Varma's dismissal ... perhaps something like However, differences with Crown authority and British residents in these states led to Krishna Varma's dismissal ... is clearer?
• Needs a ref He chose to return to England, where he found freedom of expression more favourable. His views were staunchly anti-colonial, even supporting the Boers during the Second Boer War in 1899.
• Per
  Wikipedia:See_also#.22See_also.22_for_one_section, the See also in a section should "be placed immediately after the section heading for that section" and are "references to articles that are not wikilinked from the text". So in the "Indian Home Rule Society" section, the See also is at the end (wrong place) and three of the four links are also linked in that section (wrong). {{Main
  }} might be a better choice.
  • I meant to keep all four links in that example, {{main}} could be used - see Ernest Shackleton, specifically the Endurance Expedition (1914–16) section for an example of this for multiple articles. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Need to explain "ICS" in Nonetheless, the views expressed in TIS drew stinging criticisms from ex-ICS officials ...

Note - these are only problems as far as the "The Indian Sociologist" section. I stopped there for now - needs more copyediting, after which I will be glad to take another look. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this. I have gone through what you highlighted, gimme fifteen minutes for the {{see also}} since a cup of tea is crying for my attention. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 20:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reread the part I commented on before and it is much improved, although I still have two concerns noted above. I will look at the rest of the article next. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More comments following up my reluctant oppose

• I copyedited a few places that had minor errors, please revert if I made mistakes. I also looked at the Savarkar section. If Tilak in Savarkar was an admirer of Mazzini, a protégé of Tilak, and a law student is the same as Savarkar's work found its way in India to the extremist Congress leaders of the time, including Bal Gangadhar Tilak., then the link to Tilak should be in the first instance, not the second.
• Assuming this is the same thing as the Abhinav Bharat Society, then this phrase is needlessly repetitive (we already were told he founded it) and uses a different name "initiating the secret society of Abhinav Bharat Mandal.[39]" and could probably be removed.
• These sentences confused me - needs to be clearer in some if Paris or London is the city referred to Savarkar had lived in Paris for sometime, and visited the city often.[44] By 1908, he was able to bring to the folds of his organisation Indian businessmen then residing in the city. During one of his many visits, he was able to acquire a copy of a bomb manual given by the Russian revolutionary Nicholas Safranski to Hem Chandra Das, a Bengali revolutionary in Paris.[45] Savarkar is further known to have met Gandhi while in London, and his hardline views may have influenced Gandhi's opinion on nationalist violence.[46]

I really don't have time to read the rest of the article this closely and make comments - please get a good copyedit and let me know and I will take another look. Sorry, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. The template {{Harvard reference}} is, we're told, deprecated; {{Citation}} should be used instead. And why is there no information on place of publication for the books cited? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbmurray (talk • contribs) --07:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has now been replaced with {{citation}}, place of publications have now been included. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 17:48, 25 July 2008 [24].

Croatia national football team

Nominator(s): Domiy

This page has recently underwent substantial updates and contributions. I myself and the other editors on the page have ensured it is of the highest accuracy and relevancy, hence references are more than commonly included. Amongst its superior content (which other national football team pages lack), this article is well written. This has also been ensured. Whilst many edits came in over this past month, I myself and sometimes others have gone through and reworded every difficult sentence. As a result, this article is currently in an excellently written prose. With the minor exception of a small amount of sentences being of long length, the rest of the page is very enticingly written, done after careful consideration. Just as the criteria states, its prose is very engaging and of professional quality.

In addition, it is written in a neutral manner. Whilst there were previous issues with this criteria, it is completely solved now as the articles content is stated in an encyclopedic manner and nothing more. It has been this way for a well time standing as well (it is stable!). The structure is also user friendly, all headings and subheadings are in chronological order and easily navigational on by other users in the Table of Contents. The lead has been personally written by me in such a way that it succinctly but still detailed mannered summarizes the rest of the coming article. The lead section is actually the most focused on, as a result of my personal view that a good lead section will entice the user to read further. Subject to such a regard, a lot of trouble has been gone through to find images. This article has all relevant images of the past and present issues of the national team. Such includes famous players, a famous lineup diagram, historical times and supporters and stadiums.

With consideration of all this, I think that this article is currently worthy of becoming a Featured Article material. It previously went under a peer review which was followed and hence fixed up now. Again, compared mainly with the Scotland national football team article, this one includes much more accurate and quantifiable information. Such are the reasons that this article is also up for nomination, and in the long experienced opinion of all its editors, deserves to be. Domiy (talk) 10:39, 24 July 2008

• Oppose sorry, even a really quick glance through shows multiple
  peer review before returning here. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• question Why is the FIFA sanctioned free image
  WP:NFCC#8? Fasach Nua (talk) 12:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • I'd be more concerned with the use of a fully copywritten image, in the form of this one. I'm off to delete... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose - I noticed that this isn't even assessed at B-Class now. Listen to The Rambling Man and withdraw this, then put it at peer review again for a run at

• Recent Call Ups should be Recent call ups.
• The references need publisher, last access date and date where avaliable.
• A handful of questionable sources. For example, becomeacroatiafan.com is a fan site. What makes it a
  reliable source
  ?
• Here are a few examples of statements that need citations.
  • "To date, their international squad during their successful first few years has been referred to as their "Golden Generation""
  • "This was marked by their tensional (?) final game, a 2-2 draw with Yugoslavia in Zagreb which saw much unmentioned controversy."
  • "This marked the beginning of what many called a new era for Croatia."
• There are numerous statements that I consider POV. Here's an example: "They have been a strong force in international football ever since". This is overstating things slightly. They're good, but not Brazil or Italy. Another is "The famous Zlatko Kranjčar took over...". Instead of saying he's famous, tell us why he's well-known (in this case, as a former player).
• Prose is not of FA standard. If you take this article back to peer review, try asking a
  peer review volunteer
  for a copy-edit, as one is badly needed.
• Match scores should have en dashes, not hyphens.
• Watch out for overlinking. For example, FIFA is linked five times.

Hopefully these comments will be of some help. However, this is not ready for FAC at this time. Giants2008 (17-14) 15:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose While the article is much improved from what it was previously, there are several issues to be resolved before it is ready for FAC. I meant to raise these at the peer review, but I've been off-wiki for the past week. I will leave more detailed comments on the article talk page. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Having only partially copyedited the article, I can say that the tone is less than encyclopedic ("memorable" was used seemingly indiscriminately), the references are wanting and the writing fraught with ambiguity and redundancy. I recommend addressing the objections here, then submitting to GA. Regards, Skomorokh 16:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Withdrawn by nominator. Please leave the {{
  WP:FAC/ar. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:13, 22 July 2008 [25].

The Museum of Curiosity

Nominator(s): ISD (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe this article to be of a high enough quality to become an FA. This article is already a GA and has gone through a peer review. I made the edits I thought were most appropraite for the article. Therefore, I believe this article should be promoted. ISD (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• How curious. I think you need to have a fair use rationale and a fair-use copyright tag on the images rather than a GFDL licence.
  talk) 14:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • What sort of licences? Do you have links to the ones that would be most appropriate? I didn't think the article would need them because I have been given permission to use them from the show's creators. ISD (talk) 14:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • You could ask the show's creators to contact [email protected] to confirm that they accept to freely licensing the image. That way, we can retain the GFDL license and have a permanent record of their agreement. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've asked them and I'm currently waiting for a reply. ISD (talk) 18:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • In the meantime, you can amend the licenses by replacing the GFDL tag with a fair use copyright tag and rationale. The problem is that GFDL permits anyone to copy, use or distribute the image (with an appropriate explanation of the image's history), but this conflicts with the second tag, which explicitly prohibits use by third parties.
          talk) 11:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
          ]
          • OK, but which fair use copyright tag should be used? Do you have a link to it? ISD (talk) 15:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Judging from what's said right at the bottom of the
          talk) 15:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
          ]
          • I've added the templates you suggested. ISD (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I dont think any of those images can be used under FU, they would both fail
              WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 13:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
              ]

Why? Is a UK standard phrase with lots of ghits Johnbod (talk) 03:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay. It just sounded awkward to me. Nousernamesleft (talk) 17:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• What exactly is an overseer?
• Sometimes the serial comma is used, sometimes not.

I'm out of time right now. More comments later. Nousernamesleft (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

• "In the show, the panel attempt to donate a range of curious objects to the museum." - should that not be "attempts"?
• "and is considered by some..." Who?
• "As a result, critics tend to compare the series to QI,[ with some critics saying" - 1) the second "critics" is redundant to the first 2) As above, which critics?
• 'for example, "The implausible pitch change"' - explanation of this would be nice. Also, why is "the" capitalised?
• "Bailey and Lloyd introduce themselves as well as giving the audience and listeners a short guide to the museum." - awkward sentence, consider rephrasing.
• "They then introduce the "Advisory committee"; a panel made up of a mixture of celebrities and academic experts, with Lloyd reading out their CVs.[4]" - 1) Why is "Advisory" capitalised? 2) The semi-colon should be a comma, methinks.
• "The donation can be anything, no matter how large, expensive, intangible, or even if there are doubts over whether or not the donation actually exists." - could be phrased far more concisely and less awkwardly as "The donation can be anything, no matter how large, expensive, intangible, or possibly nonexistent."
• Not much on the production - are you sure it's comprehensive?
• "described the show as being "Unusual" and "Eclectic"." - what is with this article and inappropriate capitalisation of quoted words/phrases?
• "Chris Campling, writing a preview of the episode highlighted the series in his "Radio Choice" column in The Times." - not a complete sentence.
• "Miranda Sawyer of The Observer criticised the show[needs comma] saying that..."

Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to comments - I've carried out the changes you asked for. As far as the capitalisation was concerned, I thought that was correct grammar. ISD (talk) 07:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. I'll probably have to wait for the below to be addressed and take another look before I can decide whether to support or not. Nousernamesleft (talk) 17:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

criteria 3 - I dont understand the licencing of these images, could this be clarified Fasach Nua (talk) 10:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • http://epguides.com/
  • http://www.chortle.co.uk/
  • http://www.comedy.org.uk/

Otherwise sources looked good, links checked out with the link checking tool.

I've have used epguides on several articles because it provides a guide to all the episodes, edited by a single user. I used chortle because it often the most reliable source for the stories revolving around comedy in the UK. I used the British Comedy Guide (comedy.org.uk) because as far as I know, it is the only completely up-to-date guide to the entire series. I have had doubts over using this because I was the one who created the article. However, the article was edited by someone else, and as it is the only guide on a website which could be considered to be a reliable source, I think it is permissable for me to use it. ISD (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewing only image licensing: I'm not sure that the two images contribute much to the article, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. However, the "replaceable" field needs to be fixed. --NE2 12:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree neither image is justifiable under

WP:NFCC Fasach Nua (talk) 12:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:13, 22 July 2008 [26].

Crash of the Titans

Nominator(s): Cat's Tuxedo (talk)

I've significantally contributed to this article as of late, upgrading it based on a peer review and a copy-editor's commentary, so I decided that I'm going to take a risk and nominate the page as a featured article. I say it covers the major areas (gameplay, story, development, reception) quite well, and has nice prose and NPOV. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 02:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• Put the publisher after the title in "JumpButton (April 24, 2007). "Crash Mania official interview with Radical Entertainment". Retrieved on July 13, 2007." since that's the format the article is following.
• Link the unlinked dates in the references if they are going to be linked throughout the article.
• The first paragraph has a lot of links in close proximity of each other; consider removing links such as
  WP:OVERLINK
  .

• Much as I love GameFAQs myself, what makes it a reliable site?
• What makes http://hpzr.freeweb7.com/index.htm a reliable site?
• Likewise http://www.worthplaying.com/?
• And same for http://www.codenamerevolution.com/?
• What makes the author of this piece http://kotaku.com/gaming/beer-and-tractor-pulls/crash-of-the-titans-the-hummer-288623.php reliable?
• What makes http://www.kidzworld.com/ a reliable source?
• And http://www.cad-media.com/index.php?
• Current ref 8 (Crash Mania official interview with Radical Entertainment) is lacking a publisher
• Current ref 22 (IGN preview of Crash of the Titans) Has the publisher only given in the title of the link, it should be listed separate.
• Current ref 27 (Crash of hte Titans Monster Edition rated PG by the BBFC) is lacking a publisher
• Current ref 54 (Androvich, Mark "Dead Head Fred wins..) is lacking a last access date.
• Same for current ref 55 (Grant, Christopher Dread Head Fred wins WGA..)

Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I switched out the GameFAQs site with a more reliable source.
• The interviews on HPZR were held with the developers of Radical and Amaze Entertainment. The developers of the game themselves are a quite reliable source of information.
• The statement made on the WorthPlaying site was made by the producer of the game.
• The statement made on the CodenameRevolution site was made by a developer at Radical.
• The author of the Kotaku page appears to have been to the festival to cover the subject of the Crash hummer. It looks like he even took the photo to prove it.
• Like the HPZR pages, the Kidzworld interviews were concocted with the actual developer of the game, so they're bound to be a reliable source of information.

I've fixed the other problems addressed. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's my problem with the "interviews are always reliable" argument: Interviews are only as good as the transcription/interviewee makes them. Yes, generally they are reliable for non-contentious information, but they are still 1) primary sources and 2) only as reliable as the person who publishes the information. With something like CNN or Time Magazine, we presume that the company that is in the business of doing news/journalism will get the information correct. Little sites that aren't known as well, it's not as clear that there might not be some bias that creeps into the interview, or other problems. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That may be so, but I hardly see how it changes the fact that the answers come from the very people who made the game. I am aware that there may be some bias in those answers, but we have to take into account that game developers are human, so even they can be biased sometimes. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 18:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Some of the references are really long (the ones with quotes from in game). Can they be trimmed at all? —Giggy 10:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do about it. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 12:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The lead really should be three paragraphs; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Newsletter/20080409 for useful information. —Giggy 06:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• "From there, the main goal of each "episode" is to complete fights against large groups of enemies or simply progress through the episode." - needs to clarify what an "episode" is; the article (Episode) doesn't seem to relate to the word's meaning in this game. —Giggy 06:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll take responsibility from that one. I removed the explanation to improve flow in hope that the meaning could be assumed when copyediting. Obviously not. Sorry. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 08:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Don't sweat. :-) My issue really is that without jumping to the Setting section (which I read after making that comment), the first paragraph of the gameplay section, and indeed a fair bit of stuff after that, doesn't make that much sense. You can guess (I guessed that it was a level of some sort), but we don't want to make the reader guess - it's an FA and we can do better than that. Anyways, any ideas on how to fix this? —Giggy 09:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm thinking that it could be wikilinked to
        Level (video game) to spare a prose-disjointing explanation. As I understad it, that's all it is, a level. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 10:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
        ]
        • That works. —Giggy 09:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Article switches between "Titans" and "Crash of the Titans" when referring to the game; be consistent. —Giggy 06:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed that problem. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewing only image licensing: looks good, I think. --NE2 12:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments. I did a copyedit, and since I am not a gamer please make sure that I did not inadvertently change meaning. Questions:
  • I'm not sure what this means "scoring a minimum combat hit combo"
  • What does this mean "Crash has a light and heavy attack "?
  • I don't understand the paragraph about the Nintendo DS version. Do the other versions not have islands with two levels? (Shouldn't the information about levels go in the Setting area, where this is better explained?)
  • What does this really mean -> "Radical observed that Crash Bandicoot's presence had diminished in the minds of modern gamers, and decided to refresh the franchise by producing Crash of the Titans"? and why isn't "diminished in the minds of modern gamers," in quotes since it was taken directly from the source?
  • Ok, now that is in quotes, but what on earth does it mean? Karanacs (talk) 15:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Originally, the Xbox 360 version would get a few extra months of development time to improve its graphics before setting a final release date" - does this mean that the extra development time was taken away?
  • The lead contains information that is not in the body of the article, notably the release dates and fact that it was not released in Japan (why not?).
  • Could a sentence or two be added to the lead to describe some of the information in Development and Audio?
  • In the lead, I am not really happy with the way the reviews are presented. Perhaps include one or two of the quotes to let the reader know what people really thought of the game.

Karanacs (talk) 15:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Newsletter/20080409, the first paragraph should state the name of the game (using both bold (to identify the article's name) and italics as per the manual of style), along with any other alternate names the game may go by. The genre of the game should be clearly identified as well as the developer and the publisher. If a notable person has been cited by the game as having worked on the game's development (such as Tim Schafer or David Jaffe), this should also be noted. Release dates should be given, along with the release of any ports, remakes, or sequels. The second paragraph should summarize the plot briefly in one or two sentences; a high level overview is only needed to set the stage for further discussion. One or two sentences should be included to discuss the gameplay, including any notable features of the game. The third paragraph should cover the reception of the game, citing its general critical reaction and any significantly notable successful or failing elements in the game. If the game has won awards, this aspect can be noted, but specific mention of any award is discouraged.

In short, I'm not sure if any Development or Audio info is necessary for the lead. And the release dates aren't usually included in the article's body. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per

WP:LEAD, however, The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article.. The current lead does not include any information at all about 2 sections of the article. Karanacs (talk) 15:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

PS, WP:LEAD also says that info that is in the lead should be somewhere in the article body. I just noticed your comment about that. I don't work on video game articles and don't review them very often, but I don't really see a good reason why a WP newsletter should override MOS guidelines. Feel free to convince me otherwise :) Karanacs (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added some information about the development in the lead. Don't know what to say about the audio. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 13:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Crit. 3 (Images): Only a select images, all low-resolution, all have appropriate templates. One thing, however: for the screenshots under the 'replaceable' heading you have some stuff about 'if better quality could be found' and 'fair use image'; the purpose of that space is to defend using a fair use image. What should go in those spaces, then is "Non-replaceable; the studio has not released comparable images under a free license, so fair-use images must be used." or something of that sort. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 12:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:13, 22 July 2008 [27].

Tokyo Mew Mew

Nominator(s): -- Collectonian (talk · contribs), G.A.S (talk · contribs)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel it meets all of the criteria for being an FA article. It is well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral, and stable. It is thoroughly referenced from reliable sources, using a consistent referencing style. It has been

• Current ref 11 is lacking a title
• What makes http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/index.html a reliable source? Looks like a commercial listing to me. Normally, a couple of listings of a commercial site aren't a concern, especially for information, but there are a large number of citations to this source.
• Likewise http://www.kalahari.net/default.aspx?
• What makes http://brandnoise.typepad.com/brand_noise/2005/01/feline_females_.html a reliable source?

Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 11 fixed. G.A.S 14:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• CDJapan and Kalahari.net are used to cite information about the media related to the series; there are one citation per item. G.A.S 14:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• What G.A.S. noted. CD Japan is the English language version of one of the largest CD sellers in Japan (sort of like an Amazon). Kalahari is also one. While commercial sites are the preferred option, they are both used to cite the existence of the CDs and DVDs noted in the absence of an official website. As none of the CDs are licensed, and those regional DVDs haven't been reviewed, its the best available source. The Brandnoise site is the official blog of scenarioDNA, a marketing research firm and think tank. So its a company blog by experts in the area of marketing, making it a reliable source I believe. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 14:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to leave the other comments and replies out for other reviewers to see. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment "189-191" – en dash needed
  talk) 16:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Fixed, thank you. G.A.S 16:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Also fixed the other page numbers - en dashes, the bane of my editing existence :) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewing only image licensing: looks good. --NE2 12:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments—Quite well written. Not opposing, but I have formatting issues.

• Is there some way of preventing a pile-up of four citation numbers at the end of a sentence, like this? "Critics praised the artwork in both Tokyo Mew Mew and Tokyo Mew Mew a La Mode. Ikumi's "free flowing" style and character designs were seen as a perfect fit for the series.[54][55][56][57]". Can't it be conflated into a single note? And this: " The individual character song discs were released as standalone CDs on September 4, 2002.[34][35][36][37][38]". It's over the top.
• I've removed overlinking: why DVD should be linked at all is beyond me, but twice in a sentence? MOSLINK says avoid the linking of the names of familiar countries, esp. anglopohone ones.
• "twenty-seven", but other large numbers are in numerals. nine/10 is MOS's default boundary, I think.
• The Japanese script is pretty, but just why is it necessary to make the text really difficult to read by inserting large tracts of it inline. Other articles have accepted the need to put intrusive non-roman equivalents in notes: I suggest that this be done here. TONY (talk) 06:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• No, the citations can't be combined as they are different citations and all such statements have to be backed up. The one about the critics combines multiple reviews, hence the multiple citations. When they were removed, the statement was questioned, necessitating the need for the multiple citations. I've adjusted the CDs to combined four by using a different page. The Japanese names are included, in part, because the video games were merged in, and, in part, because its more accurate to include it for the titles, the same as we do with the lead. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 06:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• As I understand, the Japanese text is required by
  WP:MOS-JAPAN#Using Japanese in the article body. Is it possible to provide an example of articles where this is provided in the footnotes? G.A.S 06:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• According to
  WP:MOSNUM, "In the body of an article, single-digit whole numbers from zero to nine are spelled out in words...; numbers greater than nine may be rendered in numerals or may be rendered in words if they are expressed in one or two words". Most numbers in the article are in fact spelled out, except for dates. Should we change all of them to numbers or to words? G.A.S 08:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• About the dates, at
  WP:OVERLINK#Dates: In the main text of an article, autoformatting should be used either on none of the month-day and month-day-year dates, or all of them. So you can't have it both ways; either link all the full dates, or none of them. The way I've always done it is to link full dates, but leave mm-yyyy unlinked along with lone years.--十八 01:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Until the mass delinking, it was consistent that only full dates were wikified. Apparently the MoS date changed so now they don't want auto formatting at all, hence all the dates being delinked (or at least, that's my understanding of it). Don't get it myself, but at this point I'd just be happy if someone would change one of their comments to support :P -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, User talk:Juhachi#Date-autoformatting seemed to clear it up for me. Makes no sense why some people would want to change a long-standing convention though...--十八 05:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:13, 22 July 2008 [28].

The World Ends with You

Nominator(s): MASEM

Self-Nomination - The information for this article is pretty much complete from the work of editors involved; I've gone through myself and have had a separate copy-edit for the text to make sure that it is FA quality (given that there is the "Game" within the game that has be followed, I wanted to make sure that the distinction between the real-world DS game, and the fictional in-game Repears' Game, is clear and understood.) --MASEM 14:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Could the fair use rationale for
  talk) 19:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • I've expanded these a bit, basically the image is to show the unique aspects of the battle system in the game. Please let me know if you were looking for more. --MASEM 19:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• What makes http://www.siliconera.com/ a reliable source?
• What makes http://kotaku.com/gaming/skies-of-blue/its-a-wonderful-world-ds-lite-265367.php reliable?
• What makes http://www.joystiq.com/2008/06/03/the-world-ends-with-you-new-shipment-coming-mid-june/ reliable?

Otherwise sources look good, links all checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Siliconera link is not necessary but is there to help with visual connection of the game's setting to the real thing. Both Kotaku and Joystiq are blog-type networks, however, it is necessary to look at the authors of these; in both cases, Brian Ashcroft and Ross Miller (respectively) are major contributors and long-time authors. In the former case, this is basically an english version of a japanese page announcing the special DS lite - I can point to a web page at the import store Play-Asia which shows the same thing but that's not as good as a more summarized source. For the Joystiq article about the shortage and reshipment, they are they are the most reliable of all sources reporting that, if not the one they all refer to. Again, going by the author here, his articles would be appropriate sources. However, if these explainations aren't sufficient, I can go ahead and remove those that are problems. --MASEM 03:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think on these, I'll just leave them out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Is the VGChartz reference reliable? Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 12:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

VGChartz is not unreliable but not perfectly reliable either (they don't fully reveal how they get their #s, but their numbers are consistent when they can be compared to more reliable sources like NPD). However, they are the only other available source for sales numbers which do seem to agree with the one number from a reliable source listed there. Some sales data is needed to be complete; I made that cavaet in the text by stating "According to VGChartz...", as to allow readers aware of the odd nature of VGChartz to be access the numbers in light of that. --MASEM 13:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree strongly with the reliance on VG Chartz for sales information here. A caveat should be put against VG Chartz figures, and their accuracy and methodology should be more heavily criticised in the

n 12:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

Ok, I found this link to a translation that comes from Famitsu/EnterBrain for 2007 japanm yearly says, so I can replace/augment that (however, it tracks with VGCs data appropriately). However, we're still at a loss with North American data; it didn't break the theoretical bound of a million units or a top 10 sale for the month, so NPD is not reporting #s. (Given that the Famitsu and other data is basically only behind a translation wall, I would expect VGChartz to actually follow this accurately - its the NA and Europe numbers that remain in question). --MASEM 14:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason it tracks with VGC appropriately is because VGC rip their figures off other firms without crediting them. But my main point was that there was more reliable data which could have been cited, and that has been addressed. -

n 20:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment I find the second image, the split-screen view, somewhat confusing. Am I correct in thinking that the upper screen shows the action from the "side" while the lower shows it from the "top"? If so, I would like to add that to the caption. Also, it seems that the readability could be improved by re-wording the "lower portion of the upper" text. Maury (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole "Setting" section is extremely confusing. Would anyone mind if I took a whack at fixing it? Maury (talk) 13:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please go ahead and try to fix whatever you can. As for the screenshot - in the context of the game, as you and your partner battle, you're put into alternate spaces that physically separates neku and partern yet fight the same enemy (this is part of the story, too much detail to go into). The "top" and "sides" would be misnomers, they're supposed to be the same area. From a development standpoint, the views are different as one is aestheticlly pleasing (top screen) and the other minimal and practical (bottom); I can see adding some language in the gameplay that explain Neku and partner fight in separate realities (I would need to quote the game for that) as to make the explanation of why the views are different. --MASEM 13:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I've gone ahead and included this aspect (called "zones" in-game) in both the setting and gameplay sections as to make it easy to explain on the screenshot caption, but please go ahead and improve if needed. --MASEM 14:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's excellent! Maury (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The coverart should be cropped top and bottom and maybe scaled down to 250px to make it appearence a bit clearer. 14:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. --MASEM 16:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Could the development section be cleaned up a little bit? It seems to be slightly disjointed and somewhat messy. Also, is there a reason that the characters can't be summed up within a few paragraphs? It would be better to strengthen the article than have a useless split. TTN (talk) 16:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the characters, do you mean bringing in the "List of characters" content (much shortened), deleting that afterward? Also, for the development, can you be more specific? The facts of development are grouped into paragraphs based on gameaply, setting, art, etc., so I'm sure what rearrangement you're looking to see. --MASEM 17:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the section would work much better as a condensed version of the character list. I don't really know what I'm looking for with the development section. It really just isn't a pleasant read. I guess it's just that the section is one topic after another rather than a well flowing section. I really don't know what I mean, so you can probably just ignore that. TTN (talk) 17:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I userfied the character list that would be inserted into the character section per this advice at User:Masem/twewychar. I need to work on the language, but I would like to know if this is appropriate and what you meant for inclusion. If so, this would be a drop in replacement for the character section (and deleting the list page). --MASEM 15:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like it would be fine after being cleaned up and refined. You could potentially use

Template:Anime voices to help with formatting. TTN (talk) 12:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

I've moved this section in with cleanup and used the anime voice template (which is nice, no red links necessary). --MASEM 16:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I would have prefered that the article follows the same layout as literally all the other video game articles on Wikipedia (with the Gameplay section before Plot), but I think the article does meet the featured article criteria. Kariteh (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, it was originally gameplay before plot before I took this to a GA, but it really made it difficult to explain the game and the Reaper's Game within the gameplay, and then making the plot section work out smoothly. Switching the order helped to smooth the flow of both sections and avoided repetition in the gameplay section. --MASEM 01:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Masem on this one. Having this order is permittable as long as it's for a good reason, and I feel this follows a more logical order when reading it. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 10:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I agree with Masem and Ashnard. A good case for IAR (though I hate citing it). —Giggy 10:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I agreed too, you know. Kariteh (talk) 11:04, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewing only image licensing: looks good. --NE2 13:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—1a. The lead alone shows that there are persistent problems in sentence structure, plus other glitches. Please get someone new to run through it carefully.

• "The game is set within the modern world of the Shibuya district as Neku Sakuraba, the main playable character, awakes to find himself"—Why is "within" better than "in"? "Awakes" is not a verb. The two ideas, linked by "as", don't seem to go in the one sentence: logic problem.
• More hyphens would ease the reader's task: for example, "seven-day time limit". Please audit throughout for double adjectives that would normally be hyphenated: some you can get away with not hyphenating, especially in AmEng, but some you can't. Use common sense.
• "Neku ... him ... himself".
• Why "utilize" rather than "use"? So ugly. There are other instances, too.
• Audit the whole article for snakes like this, which need to be split and recast: " The game's "Stride Cross Battle System" utilizes several features of the Nintendo DS, including combat that takes place on both screens, and a series of expandable "psych pins" that enable various forms of attack by performing certain motions on the touchscreen or by shouting into the microphone."
• "The game received very positive reviews that praised the game's integration of gameplay and story with the Shibuya setting as well as its graphic presentation and hip hop/electronica soundtrack by various J-pop artists." Instead of puffery, why not replace "that praised" with "of". You've already said "very positive". "integration into", should it be? If you deal with the J-pop below, possibly remove the last "by" phrase, since the sentence is already long enough. If it's unique or otherwise important, retain it here, but it's kind of long, this sentence.
• "it was also noted to be very difficult to learn"—ungainly.
• I see choppy paragraphing in "Development". TONY (talk) 04:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please review the lead now. I have reorganized and evened-out the paragraphs, in addition to addressing (I believe) all of the points mentioned above (at least in the lead). ~ JohnnyMrNinja 05:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, 1a. There are glitches all over, but the overall problem is inaccessibility to a general audience via game-guide language. All in all, it's quite rough and needs attention preferably from a non-gamer. Example problems:
  • I would prefer
    Image:Gameplay screen.PNG use the {{Non-free use rationale
    }} template so it's easier to identify the required rationale elements.
    • Fixed
  • "After one day's mission is complete, remaining Players are brought to the next day, with no conscious recollection of any events in between." Unclear what this means. Do the Players live out the time between missions, or do they just skip over it?
    • They appear to skip it (no exact explanation is given, just that to the Players, it appears to skip)
  • Instances of "in order to" need to be changed to simply "to"
  • "Beat, a Player Neku met during the first week that had become a Reaper after his partner and little sister Rhyme was erased, saves Neku from erasure by making a pact with him but at a cost; he must recover the Noise form of Rhyme from the week's Game Master or be erased." I don't comprehend why this sentence begins with "Beat".
    • Beat is the character name, however, with the previous character section, the long phrase at the start can be nixed to put noun next to verb.
  • The "Story" section is not accessible to a general audience; it loses me in several places (ex. "As they search Shibuya, they discover that both living persons in the RG and Reapers wear red pins that cause them to become slave to the same harmonious thoughts.") that seem to require familiarity with the game your audience won't have. The explanation of the pins later comes much too late.
    • Within the context of the story, these pins aren't the same as the gameplay pins, and also this is the first point where they are introduced. (More below).
  • "... with each chapter further divided down by each day of the week." What's the difference between "divided down" and just "divided"?
  • "... the two characters battle the same enemies that co-habituate both "zones" simultaneously." In the words of Inigo Montoya: "I do not think 'co-habituate' means what you think it means." Also, "co-whatever both zones simultaneously" is triply redundant. --Laser brain (talk) 06:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed above points w/ comments - however, this is a case where any specific input on what is confusing from the story side is very helpful because we have a game-within-a-game, and trying to keep the elements that affect characters within the story and those that are dealt with by the DS player separated is important here. --MASEM 10:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:24, 21 July 2008 [29].

Night Out

Nominator(s): Mr.crabby (talk) and Mastrchf91 (talk)

As part of WikiProject The Office, we've been working on the article Night Out, it is currently a good article and we feel that it is ready for FA status. --Mr.crabby (Talk) 00:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. I'm mainly discussing prose issues here, and its a pretty long list. I'd recommend getting someone who hasn't worked on the article to give it a thorough copy edit. The following is a partial list of prose issues in the article:

• Opening paragraph: "Written by Mindy Kaling, who also acts in the show as customer service representative Kelly Kapoor... the episode first aired in the United States... on the National Broadcasting Company (NBC)". This seems like the wrong sentence order - the sentence appears to be leading up to the final clause, but is the channel it was broadcast on really the most important information? Its also a long and complex sentence. I'd recommend splitting into at least two, one covering the writer and director, the second covering broadcasting information. These are really two separate concepts.

Split the sentences. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Opening paragraph: ""Night Out" was viewed by over 7.5 million people" - that's not technically true. It had a measured audience of over 7.5 million people bu we can't actually say they all viewed it. I know this sounds pedantic, but an FA should strive for this level of accuracy.

Stated that it was an estimated measurement of the audience. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Opening paragraph: ""Night Out" was viewed by over 7.5 million people,[2] bringing in the lowest number of viewers that The Office had seen in 12 episodes". The juxtaposition of "over 7.5 million" and "the lowest number of viewers" is jarring. Can it be reworded to flow better? Saying "The Office had seen" is again incorrect - viewers watch TV shows, not vice versa.

Clarified that it was a measured audience. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Opening paragraph: ""Night Out" received both positive and negative reviews among critics." - received reviews from critics, not among critics.

Changed. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Second paragraph: I'm not sure that a condensed plot summary work well as the second paragraph of the lede, but others may be able to give you clearer advice on this.

The condensed plot summary is used more as a lengthened teaser, which is the style of Greatest Hits (Lost) and other featured articles. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine, like I said, this is something that others may wish to give their opinions about. Gwernol 15:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Second paragraph: "...and everyone quickly places blame on Jim" either "...places the blame on Jim" or "...blames Jim"

Changed. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Plot section: this is written as an "in world" plot description. Per
  the manual of style
  it should be written from a real world perspective.

Unclear on what should be done about this. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 14:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It should be rewritten to be from a real-world perspective. The reader should be aware that the events described are fictional, not real. There are examples of how to do this in the Manual of Style page I linked to. For example, you could start the plot section: "In this episode, ...". It doesn't need to be overdone, but is generally better style. Gwernol 15:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay. I'll get right on that. Mastrchf (^t/_c) 18:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]