Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 November 8

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I would have preferred to see the nominator's continued response to developments in this discussion but that didn't occur. So, given the comments offered here by participants, I'm closing this discussion as Keep. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Low Yok Lin

Low Yok Lin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

article, in its own words, only makes passing reference to establishing notability. it is not ready for mainspace. a draft exists in the draftspace so it is not suitable for draftify. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish)} 23:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. The references are from newspaper articles dating back to the early 1930s. I hope this is the right format/forum to provide my feedback. While the article may currently lack extensive "mainstream" references, there are significant news articles dating back to the early 1930s but may not be picked up by the "mainstream" sources. These articles provide historical context on his contribution during those early years.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that this article seeks to address a broader goal: to recognize and document the contributions of earlier Chinese immigrants to Malaysia, who may have been successful and impactful in their communities but have been overlooked in historical research. Limited research or a lack of recognition in the academic community may have resulted in the omission of their stories.

By expanding the article with references to historical news articles and encouraging those who may have information about other such Chinese immigrants to contribute, we aim to shed light on these often underrepresented but important figures in history. Additionally, one of the goals of this article is to provide a platform for those who may have known Low Yok Lin to contribute their insights and potentially enrich the article with more detailed information and context. By allowing exposure to those who knew him, we aim to gather a richer source of information and provide a more comprehensive account of his life and contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LauSawLan (talk • contribs) 01:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople, Radio, China, and Malaysia. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 01:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• notability guidelines.

  Wikipedia is structured to follow the biases of published sources. We only follow, and do not lead. The number of underrepresented groups in history vastly outbalances the number of well represented groups, but Wikipedia cannot fix that.

  In other words, if no one has yet seen fit to write about this person, we can't be the first to do so. I really do hope you're able to continue with this project, and I'm not sure where to point as a more appropriate venue to continue the work at.

  Sources exist for this subject, as is clear already from the article, and the draft is a previous revision, so I think that either Userfy or Draftify over existing draft could be outcomes within policy. It's also my understanding that Wikiversity has policies allowing original research, so it may also be appropriate to Transwikify to Wikiversity if the author would like to continue this work there and I'm not mistaken about that project's original research policies.

  I searched for Chinese sources using the subject's birth name 劉毓麟, and got (on the first three pages of google results) no true positives. Apart from modern social media accounts of living people, I got at least three false positives: one orchestral music specialist who was still alive in the 2010s, one law professor who died in 1959, and one minor government official about a generation prior to the subject. Folly Mox (talk) 10:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Hi Folly thanks for taking the time to go through the article and provide the feedback. Really appreciate it. I have removed the oral parts in case it gives the impression that they are hearsays. I have already substantiated most of it with written source from mainstream media (not blogs but national newspaper in Malaysia with some feature article from newpaper on his life). The sources (other than the few listed in the reference), came from Chinese newspaper and you will not be able to find them by just checkingGoogle, because they are in some repositories/ archive section of old newspapers. If you like to find Lou Yoke lin, you may try typing "劉毓麟”+“太平” in the website https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers It searches all the archives of past newspaper from both Singapore and Malaysia. The reason why I use this is because it uses the "name of the subject" and "his hometown" . This is how they identify people in the past. I have also done research to check with people who knew him to make sure the articles are indeed referring to him. LauSawLan (talk) 12:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Looks like this has some potential, but is not quite ready for mainspace at the moment. I suggest Draftify over existing draft.-
  KH-1 (talk) 01:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Hi KH-I wanted to express my heartfelt gratitude for your feedback and your commitment to upholding Wikipedia's standards of notability. Your input has been instrumental in shaping the profile of Yok Lin, and I appreciate your dedication to maintaining the quality of content on the platform.

• I have made every effort to ensure that the information in the article is substantiated by credible sources from mainstream media and since it is not just pure reporting but some feature articles, which is equivalent to secondary research (although not in the academic space) + leadership positions he held . It is rather exhaustive at this stage as I also interviewed people who knew him. On that note, some informed he was a close business partners with many luminaries during his era such as Tan Kah Kee ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tan_Kah_Kee) etc. I cannot find written sources so I have omitted it at this stage. If you have anything specific that I may further improve on, please do let me know as I have been scratching my head on how to make it better to meet Wikipedia's standard.

• I feel that people who reads about Yok lin in Wikipedia( if this were to come true) may add on more details from their own research that i may not have at this juncture. I find that many of the past leaders did not have the luxury we have today where just a click of a button, we get all the exposure and secondary research becomes almost automatic(even AI can do it for us next time), so they need a little different approach for research.

  The intent is to have the stories of these group of leaders inspire future generations to follow is his footsteps. And if Wikipedia may be the avenue to do that, it would really change lives. LauSawLan (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to keep an open mind on this, pending a more thorough review of the sources. However, the impression that I get that is that even within the historical context/place, his contributions may not be significant enough to warrant a standalone article. Might be better suited in a sub-section of a page on the "Malayan Broadcasting Service", or

KH-1 (talk) 11:31, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• Comment: LauSawLan (talk · contribs), would you select the two to six independent reliable sources that provide the most detailed coverage about Low Yok Lin (traditional Chinese: 劉毓麟; simplified Chinese: 刘毓麟)? Would you then provide quotes or make a summary of how each source provides significant coverage about him?

  To address the concerns about original research, I recommend removing any content that is not supported by a reliable published source. Thank you, Cunard (talk) 01:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi Cunard thanks for the tips, let me come back to you asap as I am travelling( overseas) right now and need to find time to work on the article.

  LauSawLan LauSawLan (talk) 13:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you, LauSawLan (talk · contribs). The AfD opened at 23:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC) and is scheduled to close seven days later at sometime after 23:33, 31 October 2023. I ask that the closer relist the AfD to give LauSawLan one more week to work on this. If this needs more than a week, then a draftify to give LauSawLan even more time would be the best approach. Cunard (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  hi Cunard- I have included what you asked and quoted 2 publication.

See ^[1]

The most significant is the Yok Lin being listed in 南洋名人集传 or Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang, which records of prominent Chinese in Southeast Asia. Most of these Chinese living in Malaya and Singapore in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were notable for their righteous characters and life contributions. They are found in NUS repositories and NUS is a trusted source. NUS is the 8th university in the world (QS World University Rankings 2024: NUS rises three places to rank 8th globally) I trust this is sufficient and my sources all are backed by newspaper articles.There is no heresays,as i have removed everything that cannot be substantiated. I believe more information will surface when this article is exposed. LauSawLan (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

LauSawLan (talk · contribs), thank you for providing this source and quotes. Would you provide more details about Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang? Who is the author? Who is the publisher? Did the author or publisher have any affiliation with Low Yok Lin (are they independent of him)?

Would you provide a second source that gives significant coverage of Low Yok Lin? At least two sources are needed to establish notability.

Cunard (talk) 08:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I've copyedited the article to remove promotional content, unreliable sources, and original research. If Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang is an independent reliable source, and if LauSawLan can link and quote one or two additional sources that discuss Low Yok Lin, I would support keeping this article as passing Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

  Cunard (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi Cunard- thanks again for taking time to review the article. For ease of reference, you may refer to Sources - Sources (google.com)This source has been extensively utilized in academic studies on the overseas Chinese, who have made significant contributions to Malaysia and Singapore. It was published as early as the 1920s. From what I found, the digitized version contains the bibliographic information about the publication

  Nanyang Celebrity Collection, Volume 1

  Nanyang Celebrity Collection,

  ContributorWu Yanong

  Publisher-Dianshi Zhai, 1922

  Orginal From-Comell University

  21 Oct 2014

  I think this publication is a "landmark" reference since it is used by researchers around the world. i need more time to dig out more information as i am still traveling and taking time to refine this article. Thanks again for your guidance and feedback. LauSawLan (talk) 14:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting by request of one of the participants. Right now, the consensus is leaning towards Draftification.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• It seems the 南洋名人集傳 source has the same tenor as a Who's Who. It definitely seems to be a reliable source, but uncertain if it establishes notability, since IIRC Who's Who doesn't. Uncertain if it's a truly independent source or if anyone could get in there with a smol payment, but neither situation would be markedly unusual. The series editor was 林博愛 (Lin Bo'ai). It looks like it was published in several volumes or possibly instalments. A 集傳 is a compilation of biographies. Folly Mox (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi Folly

  Based on what i could find, for “南洋名人集传” / Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang, the editorial committee selected the biographies of prominent Chinese personalities in Southeast Asia, especially those who contributed to the society, culture, economy, and politics of their region. The biographies were mostly written by the editors themselves, based on their personal knowledge or interviews with the subjects. The subjects did not have to submit any data or pay any fees to be included in the book series. If I were to assume for a moment that the above is not true, with so many universities globally ( Standford, Cornell etc ,Sources - Sources (google.com)) using them for research, it is unlikely that those listed merely had to pay for inclusion, which means the data would have been biased. Furthermore, any reputable research body would typically avoid such biased data and ensure that their research is conducted with a high degree of objectivity and integrity.

On a separate note, the newspaper articles on Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas provide a check and balance instead of relying on one source.

The who's who seems to be info filled by the individual

Extract from website , "Most of the material is self-reported, supplied through publisher questionnaires."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Whos-Who-in-America

The one from 南洋名人集传 or Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang are from editors who choosed their subject on a wider scope include social and economic impact

Hence, they apppear different from an entry criteria.

LauSawLan (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria says: "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included."

  Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography says: "3. The person has an entry in a country's standard national biographical dictionary (e.g. the Dictionary of National Biography)." Biographical dictionary lists reference publications titled Who's Who as an example. I consider inclusion in a national Who's Who publication to be a strong indicator of notability if the publisher is reputable and if it is an independent source.

  Nanyang is "the Chinese term for the warmer and fertile geographical region along the southern coastal regions of China and beyond, otherwise known as the 'South Sea' or Southeast Asia". This makes the book cover an even higher level than a national biographical dictionary.

  From what LauSawLan and FollyMox have found in their research, Biographies of Prominent Personalities in Nanyang (Chinese: 南洋名人集传) seems to be an independent reliable source that materially contributes to establishing notability.

  LauSawLan (talk · contribs), you wrote, "On a separate note, the newspaper articles on Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas provide a check and balance instead of relying on one source." Would you post a summary or quotes of one or two of the newspaper articles that best establish "Yok Lin's leadership roles in social and economic areas"? The best newspaper sources would contain significant coverage of him and have minimal non-independent content like quotes from him.

  Cunard (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I think I'd probably translate this source's name as Collected Biographies of Prominent People in the South Pacific or something similar, since Nanyang as a transliterated toponym usually indicates Nanyang, Henan.
  Glad to hear it's more of a national biography than a Who's Who. Early Republican China was uh kinda warlordy, and everyone's gotta eat. Anyway though I did some more digging and I have found zero indication that this source is anything other than reliable and independent, so agree that it contributes to notability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:35, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cunard Folly and everyone who have taken the time to contribute and provide the invaluable feedback. It really helped me to improve the article. I was down with flu these few days, so pardon my delay in replying .

As for additional reference:

A) His contribution during the Japanese occupation :I thought this one is probably rather interesting. I omitted it in the article because it is about the war time atrocities during the Japanese occupation in Taiping (there are probably more if one searches more deeply)

• This **article 李永球-Lee Eng Kew: 太平籌賑會婦女部主任    is written by the author of the book 'Japanese Hands: Three Years and Eight Months of Japanese Occupation in Taiping,' who also has a website on many feature articles. His book is also available 日本手：太平日據三年八個月 | BooKu (bookumy.com)

  Summary of the *article

  The main story of the** article above, was about Li Xiuzhong , a key figure in the story, serving as the director of the Women's Department of the Taiping Relief Association. She joined the Malayan People's Anti-Japanese Army to resist the Japanese invasion in 1941 and was unfortunately arrested and killed in 1944 while fighting for the resistance.

• In the **article ,Liu Yilin was mentioned as the President of the Taiping Rubber Association. The association had a significant role in the Taiping Relief Association's efforts to support China's resistance against Japan during the Japanese occupation.

• Liu Yilin, along with other leaders such as Huang Zenan, Du Rong, and Huang Jinggao, also contributed to commemorating the sacrifices made by individuals like Li Xiuzhong, who served as the director of the Women's Department of the Taiping Relief Association. They petitioned the Chinese Kuomintang government to honor Li Xiuzhong's contributions and sacrifices. The passage also highlighted the importance of overseas Chinese communities in raising funds and providing support for the anti-Japanese efforts during this period.

• Comments:

  During the Japanese occupation, many atrocities were committed against civilians. In fact, it is well-known that anyone who was found to be against the Japanese during that time, whether directly, indirectly, or merely suspected, was often executed and tortured. Therefore, Liu Yulin's action was a brave and selfless act.

  About the war- Japanese occupation of Malaya - Wikipedia

  additional info Home (google.com)

B) I added commentary to the biography. Many of the citations I included in the Wikipedia article had already covered the subject extensively, but I decided to supplement the content with information from news articles and feature pieces for context. Rubber was a cornerstone of the economy during that era, and it was mentioned that he owned more than 100 acres of land, indicating a significant role in employment and considerable influence during his time.

see-https://sites.google.com/view/lowyoklinadditionalinfo/home?authuser=6 I hope this is sufficient.Have a good weekend.

• Lau saw Lan LauSawLan (talk) 14:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Thank you for the additional source,
  significant coverage of Low Yok Lin (at least a few paragraphs of coverage)? This would be the easiest way to establish notability about the subject even though there is a different way we can use but that requires more work.

  The other way is Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:

  People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

  • If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.

  The guideline says "multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". We could list many sources that provide less substantial coverage about Low Yok Lin to demonstrate notability, but I am hoping that will not be necessary if we can find a second reliable source that provides substantial coverage.

  I think this discussion is making good progress and would support a second relist to give more time to discuss the sources. Thank you.

  Cunard (talk) 10:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Per Cunard @ 10:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC), relisting for another seven days for a chance to find additional sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Seems to be a rather common name, so you get several hits on more recent individuals. I can't find sourcing, but the discussion about the sources used seems credible, I'm ok with a !keep. Oaktree b (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Coincidentally, it's also Wikipedia Asian Month; I try to contribute there but my articles are mostly dinky little things compared to this effort. If I was able to contribute this much knowledge and submit the article there, I'd be very proud of the work involved. Not that is really helps in AfD, but the amount of digging through old sources involved here is to be commended. Oaktree b (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  thanks Oaktree b and Cunard and everyone who has contributed and given the feedback.

  My primary objective in publishing this article is to unveil individuals who were pioneers and made significant contributions to nation-building, encompassing economic, social, and community aspects, in Malaya during the 1900s when the Chinese diaspora in Malaya was at its peak. The challenge in creating such articles lies in uncovering research materials from that era, as immigrants during that time were predominantly focused on fulfilling their basic needs. Thus, I hope their 'notability score' may be adapted or recalibrated to treat the past differently and not be subjected to the same contemporary yardstick.

  Nonetheless, Yok Lin's profile still received sufficient press coverage (an indication of his notability), and he also stood out due to the numerous leadership positions he held in economic and social establishments, which were covered by the mainstream press. While the sheer number of secondary articles was not abundant (perhaps due to my lack of access), they are compensated for by the quality and credibility of one of the research paper that I managed to find, namely the 'Prominent People in Nanyang.',' (Sources - Sources (google.com) and Research Article (google.com))which serves to this day, as an invaluable reference for academics researching individuals who made marked contributions to society in Nanyang (South east Asia region).

  Other than the many citations that I have already listed in the article, which covered Yok Lin's contribution ( they also included feature articles), there are definitely more secondary research materials available, but I currently lack access to them. I reached out to the Fujian/Hokkien Association and Hua Lian School, where he once served as chairman for both establishments. They informed me that they do keep records of the names of their past leaders (this is how I uncovered Yok Lin's photo as well), but detailed records of their past leaders' contributions and articles written on them are yet to be scanned into online repositories. They informed me that these materials exist in manual manuscripts, and unfortunately, I couldn't persuade them to send them to me. After several emails and phone calls, they suggested I pay a visit in person( i don't live in Malaya/Malaysia) and check with the relevant person when I am there. So, this is how far I could get thus far.

  To recap on my findings so far

  a) Economic Impact:

  Newspaper articles covered his repeated election as the president of the Rubber Association and comments on his popularity

  ref: "Liu Yulin of the Taiping Chinese Gum Association was the president of the Taiping Chinese Rubber Association(太平華人樹膠公會劉毓麟蟬聯正會長 南洋商报) 10 Feb 1952". Malaysian Chinese Paper, Nanyang Siang Pau(南洋商报). Retrieved 25 October 2023"NewspaperSG-Taiping Chinese Rubber Association Liu Yulin and Huang Jiu are appointed as the president and vice president (太平華人樹膠公會劉毓麟黃九親任正副會長)". eresources.nlb.gov.sg (南洋商报 (Nanyang Siang Pau)). 20 Dec 1949. Retrieved 2023-10-28

  Rubber was then a key economic pillar during the early 1900s and a driving force for immigrants going to Malaya. Another feature article in the newspaper mentioned that he owned hundreds of acres of rubber plantation. This in itself was a driver for employment. In yet another article, it was noted that he was invited to press conferences to provide advice on the economic situation in Malaya, particularly for the rubber industry ( "The market conditions in Taiping have become increasingly stable, Liu Yulin(太平和豐兩埠市况已日趨穩定劉毓麟與王振相二君)1 March 1934". Nanyang Siang Pau ( Malaysian Chinese Newspaper). Retrieved 25 October 2023.)

  b) Social Impact:

  Both the press and research papers mentioned his key leadership roles in social causes. Eg. founder of the '励德社' (Lì Dé Shè) Society, which translates to 'Society of Encouraging Virtue' or 'Society for Promoting Moral Integrity.' It is often used to refer to organizations or groups that aim to promote and encourage virtuous behavior and moral values in society, and this term is associated with traditional Chinese ethical and Confucian principles.

  He was also the Chairman of the Fujian Association. This association provided the Chinese immigrants with resources and means to settle down in Malaya. He also founded an association dedicated to promoting character building and good behavior.

  c) Contributions to Education:

  He served as the chairman of Hua Lian, one of the oldest schools in Malaya. I managed to obtain a copy of his photo from the school and this was also mentioned in another feature article in the press about his appointment.

  He also mentioned in newspaper press for having contributed to other school building funds

  ref:

  1. "Yongwupo Shihua School fundraising construction school building(永梧坡時化學校募捐建築校舍鳴謝) 28 March 1927". SingaporeSG- Chinese News paper in Malaysia-(Nanyang Siang Pau), 28 March 1927, Page 5. Retrieved 25 October 2023.

  2.contribution to overseas chinese university, Xiamen where he was mentioned as one of the donors-https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/article/nysp19350211-1.2.33.3?qt=%22%E5%8A%89%20%E6%AF%93%20%E9%BA%9F%22,%20%22%E5%A4%AA%20%E5%B9%B3%22&q=%22%E5%8A%89%E6%AF%93%E9%BA%9F%E2%80%9D%2B%E2%80%9C%E5%A4%AA%E5%B9%B3%E2%80%9D)

  d) Participation in Numerous Charitable Events:

  They are all recorded in newspaper articles.

  1. ^ "英屬British Taiping Fujian Overseas Chinese Relief Fever(太平閩僑之賑捐熱)". Retrieved 25 October 2023
  2. NewspaperSG - Huang Laofen, a sculptor of millimang, held a solo exhibition in Taiping, and Liu Yulin presided over the ribbon cutting (nlb.gov.sg) ( here he has convinced the famous sculptor to donate part of his earnings to Hua Lian school)

  With the above, I hope that this article is given some exposure to bring to light not only his contributions but also those of others who contributed during those early years. Hopefully, others who knew him may come forward to share more information. And in the process, inspire the current and future generations to play a part in society. LauSawLan (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for these additional links and research, LauSawLan (talk · contribs)! Cunard (talk) 01:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
  reliable sources. The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:

  People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject

  .
  • If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
  Sources
  1. The entry in the Collected Biographies of Prominent People in the South Pacific (simplified Chinese: 南洋名人集传; traditional Chinese: 南洋名人集傳), which is a very strong source as I discussed here.
  2. The Nanyang Siang Pau and Sin Chew Daily newspaper articles linked in this comment from LauSawLan.
  There is sufficient coverage in
  reliable sources to allow Low Yok Lin (traditional Chinese: 劉毓麟; simplified Chinese: 刘毓麟) to pass Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says, "multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability".

  Cunard (talk) 01:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Keep - notable. Thank you Cunard, LauSawLan and Oaktree b for your persistence. We need these sorts of historical articles more than a lot of popular culture stuff but they can be a lot of work to properly source.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:31, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks A.B, Cunard and Oaktree. Your constructive comments and suggestions have not only helped me improve the article but have also enhanced my understanding of the Wikipedia community's standards. I am truly impressed by how people here invest their own time and effort to provide all the feedback. by the way I'm new to the Wikipedia scene may I know what will happen now after 7 days will I be the one who need to remove the notes of deletion or somebody from the admin team will do so LauSawLan (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. With no new participation after two relistings, I don't think we will see additional editors weighing in here on this discussion so I'm closing this as No consensus. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yung Ro

Yung Ro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The notability rests on charting in the Billboard 'Hot R&B/Hip Hop Single Sales' chart, which I don't think is counted as a notable chart. It has been tagged as non-notable for more than 13 years. 2008 AfD was to merge to The Color Changin' Click but this was undone by another user, and this article doesn't necessarily need more information on this one member as it would be out of kilter with the other short biographies. Redirect effectively deletes this, but is a possible option. Boleyn (talk) 13:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Texas. Shellwood (talk) 13:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect again to the Color Changin' Click and be done with it. There is nothing else found outside of that musical act for this person. Can you Salt a redirect so they don't create it again? Oaktree b (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This artist hit the Billboard charts twice (yes, the R&B/Hip-Hop charts count as a chart, by all means), and received a raft of attention in Midwest press outlets around his two hit singles ([23], [24], [25]). He's received some nationwide attention as well; [26]. Looks to meet WP:MUSIC bullets 1, 2, and 11, and possibly also 7. Chubbles (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as per the reliable sources identified by Chubbles that show a pass of
  WP:GNG so that deletion is unnecessary in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 21:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 23:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Irina Khaburdzania

Irina Khaburdzania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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The subject, a Georgian women's footballer, has played for the

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• Weak Keep may be notable as the National football team player. --BoraVoro (talk) 16:53, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. GiantSnowman 19:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - significant coverage is what we need. Playing in a national team does not make a subject exempt from GNG. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:48, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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I would encourage this to be renominated at some point in the future if the issues aren't resolved, and if it is, please ping me and I will semi-protect the debate to prevent a repeat of the sockpuppetry and disruption seen here. Daniel (talk) 23:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Miroshnichenko

Roman Miroshnichenko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Wikipedia is not a vanity publisher or a PR platform. Refbombed spam for non

]

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected csp |username}}.

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• Weak keep for the Independent Music Awards win and the Hollywood Music award nominations, but we'd need to TNT or cut much of the fat from this. Oaktree b (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are not even close to being major awards. They are not even credible awards. There is no policy based justification for keeping self nominated pay for play award farm suckers. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Independent Music Awards (IMAs) notable winners and nominees have included such world renown musicians as Macy Gray, Simon Phillips, Foreigner, George Benson, Jeff Healey, Paul Wertico, Frank Colon, Marco Benevento, Roberto Tola, Paquito D’Rivera, to name a few. By continuing to insult and develop unfounded nervous demagoguery (apparently, out of envy of more successful artists), you only continue to discredit yourself, demonstrating complete ignorance and lack of awareness of the issues you have raised. What a shame! Molgav (talk) 11:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The IMAs article (about the award, not about this person), is sourced to Billboard, it seemed notable to me as far as awards go, meaning this guy would be higher-up on the notability "check-list" if you will, as he was a winner. Oaktree b (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure IMAs might be barely notable (questionable) but that does not make them a major award. Award farms like that are a dime a dozen and they don't inherit credibility from then artists they give awards to. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:58, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have evidence that IMA is a pay to play award farm? Llajwa (talk) 20:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Check their site and FAQ. They are quite open that their awards are a promotional tool. And better hurry if you want to get in on the action, entries close in January 2020. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And the big problem there Oaktree b was that that Billboard article had nothing to do with those awards which didn't happen that year. They covered the AIM ones. Fortunately now someone has removed it. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article consists exclusively of confirmed facts that can be documented, including a list of achievements at recognized major music competitions in the world. You must understand that you are taking on too much responsibility and making unfounded and biased judgments in a rude manner about anything, including encroaching on the dignity and business reputation of both the artist himself and the individuals and companies listed in the article. Molgav (talk) 16:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While he has received a total of 50-plus nominations with 23 wins in multiple international songwriting contests and music awards in 9 countries and recorded and performed with world-renowned musicians. 188.123.231.73 (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Struck sock vote.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't !vote twice. duffbeerforme (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article contains enough facts with external links to authoritative official sources confirming the status of the individual and the high level of his achievements 87.116.176.156 (talk) 14:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC) Struck sock vote.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Very weak keep Unless IMA really is a fake, vanity award outfit, this musician seems to me to squeak through the notability gate - but the page should be cut by 80% to bring it in line with Wikipedia norms for ordinary, notable journeyman musicians. Llajwa (talk) 20:09, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Which criteria does it squeak through? Otherwise

  WP:JUSTNOTABLE. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Keep The biographical facts in the article are supported by references to official sources. Not everyone is included in the heroes of the Great Jazz Guitarists encyclopaedia of the world's largest authoritative publishing house Hal Leonard. And being on the same pedestal of nominees and winners of respectable music awards, such as Hollywood Music Awards, The Independent Music Awards, USA Songwriting Competition along with world stars is just another of the many confirmations of notable status. Not counting many other achievements and recognition in the world.Loserseater (talk) 19:08, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Strike sock -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Evading a block with a sock puppet to !vote a fourth time is not allowed. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I would say he meets WP:MUSICBIO criterion 8 and 9, with many competition and award nominations and wins. Royal88888 (talk) 04:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Royal88888, again, please cite/link the sources you are speaking of, otherwise other editors will just assume you are siding with the majority vote since I havent came across any of your AfD participation where you were early, you somewhat come up last. dxneo (talk) 09:24, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Dxneo I did not mention any sources, so your question does not make any sense. My argument is that he has won or been nominated for awards and competitions and per WP:MUSICBIO he would qualify. These are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Miroshnichenko#Awards_and_honors The corresponding sources to verify are also listed, so I don't need to waste time and repost them here. Anyone reading the article can easily see them and verify. Royal88888 (talk) 02:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And both of those MUSICBIO criteria say MAJOR. Which of the competitions or "awards" are you calling major. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Is there an official list of major awards approved by law, such as the US State Department or another similar organisation? Instead of speculation, please, present this list, if you're authorised. Please, official list, which isn't limited by your own preferences and breadth of horizons. Not some "top-list" from pulp or gloss magazines or list , but the official, State list, having legal force. Loserseater (talk) 14:23, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A State Department approved list of official music awards? Great trolling. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:23, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hillcrest International School

Hillcrest International School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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has been unsourced for several years. WP:BEFORE searches pulled up an unrelated school in Nigeria, but nothing on this. no clear indication of notability DrowssapSMM (talk) (contributions) 19:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete per nomination. Llajwa (talk) 20:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Unreferenced and fails
  WP:NSCHOOL. LibStar (talk) 01:21, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

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The result was delete‎. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marvin Van Buren

Marvin Van Buren (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Non-notable creative, lacks significant coverage in independent reliable sources, failing

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• Delete No indication of notability. Llajwa (talk) 20:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Very much PROMO. Nothing found for this individual [27], he directed a music video. I looked at .fr websites as his film was screened at Cannes. Zero hits for this person. Delete for any sor t of notability Oaktree b (talk) 23:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Jantima Khunpiphat

Jantima Khunpiphat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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The subject made at least one appearance for the

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• Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. GiantSnowman 19:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to List of Morocco women's international footballers. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yasmina Laaroussi

Yasmina Laaroussi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination

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The subject, a Swiss-born footballer who has played for the

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• Redirect as above. GiantSnowman 19:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Mississippi Blues (film)

The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. (non-admin closure) microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish•growths)} 20:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mississippi Blues (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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fails notability for film, disputed as it was moved out of the draftspace manually. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish•growths)} 18:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep meets
  WP:NFO #2 being selected for the 2023 Cannes Classic. S0091 (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. Passes
  WP:NFILM
  :

1) The film has received two full-length reviews by nationally known critics: Kevin Thomas for the Los Angeles Times (review) and Janet Maslin for The New York Times (review). .

2) The film is historically notable, as evidenced by its selection for screening at the 2023 Cannes Film Festival 40 years after its release and at the Locarno Film Festival in 2003 (source), among other notable festivals. Mooonswimmer 18:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we've come across another FloridaArmy special. I'll agree that with the above sources, the subject of the article is notable and withdraw my nom, I invite someone to speedy close the discussion here. I'm also going to add the above to the article and maybe do a slight prose re-write so it doesn't sound so robotic. Thanks for heads up @Mooonswimmer and S0091. Cheers, microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish•growths)} 19:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Tinysoft

Tinysoft (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Reviewed during NPP. No evidence of wp:notability under GNG or SNG. There are no reference that even 1/10th meet GNG. I searched and could not find any GNG type sources. The article content reflects this ....it's basically just a description of it's products and their release dates. North8000 (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Tiger Queens: The Tiger King Musical (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination

)

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A search doesn't indicate this Netflix musical on TikTok? attracted enough critical attention or notability on its own to pass the

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• Page creator here, just merge to Tiger King. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sammi Brie: If this works for you, can you close this discussion and/or complete the merge. I don't think we need to waste more editor time at AfD here. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm fine with that as well. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Brenna Thummler

Brenna Thummler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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not finding how the page meets this: A person is presumed to be notable if they have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Weißer Storch (talk) 17:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep The article cites several seemingly reliable secondary sources. She seems (marginally) notable. Llajwa (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep A search in the Wikipedia Library revealed a bunch of reviews of this person's works in Library Journal, Booklist, Publishers Weekly, and other places. So yes, meets notability guidelines.--SouthernNights (talk) 21:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: The Beat used for sourcing is green per sourcebot, so it's good. I find this one [28] and a Publisher's Weekly review/longer article [ https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/childrens/childrens-book-news/article/91383-oni-press-to-publish-lights-final-volume-in-sheets-trilogy.html] Oaktree b (talk) 23:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per
  WP:CREATIVE#3 and the reviews in the External links section at the time of the nomination, e.g. Kirkus (2), School Library Journal (3), Publishers Weekly 1, 2, Booklist; Thummler has written and illustrated multiple works with multiple reviews, and illustrated a work with multiple reviews. This article can be expanded by incorporating these secondary sources about her career. Publishers Weekly also writes about her collective body of work, and the Erie Reader has a feature about her and her work. Other reviews: The Comics Journal, Erie Reader. Beccaynr (talk) 01:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  She also contributed to COVID Chronicles: A Comics Anthology; per a Publishers Weekly review: "Brenna Thummler’s “Sort of Together & Mostly Apart” is a particular standout, offering jewel-toned glimpses of canceled proms, retail drudgery, and hospital heartbreak." Beccaynr (talk) 01:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I have made some updates to the article to incorporate sources identified in this discussion, and a few from the Wikipedia Library. Beccaynr (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Star Mississippi 02:50, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of battles and other violent events by death toll

List of battles and other violent events by death toll (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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The article does not meet

It seems that this article has become a hotbed for

I propose deleting the article and splitting any content that isn't already in a list into new articles. 296cherry (talk) 17:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete Vaguely-defined criteria for inclusion, and therefore fails
  WP:NLIST since no source would discuss so many different types of mass killings, from more than 1 million victims down to 16, as if they have anything in common. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 02:31, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete essentially a badly organised list of lists which fails
  WP:NLIST. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:10, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Delete Badly organized as said above, impossible to maintain with no coherent criteria. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 02:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Should at the very least be split into separate articles, such as List of Terrorist Attacks by Death Toll, or List of mass Sacrifices by Death Toll.
• Delete and split into separate articles: Vaguely-defined criteria for inclusion, and therefore fails
  WP:NLIST since no source would discuss so many different types of mass killings, from more than 1 million victims down to 16, as if they have anything in common. Parham wiki (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

User:GoatLord234 14 November 2023 — Preceding undated comment added 17:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep‎. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Peak copper

Peak copper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination

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Too soon for this article because peak copper will not happen during the energy transition and that will take decades. See for example

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/10/19/why-it-is-time-to-retire-dr-copper Chidgk1 (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep. I don't really understand the nomination rationale here. The Too soon essay is one that discusses notability, not how far in the future an event is predicted to happen. This article seems to demonstrate notability, with multiple sources discussing the inevitable decline of copper production, and many of them using the exact phrase peak copper. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes perhaps I should have linked to Wikipedia:Fringe theories as a reason rather than "too soon".

  There are very recent few cites in the article which actually say peak copper will occur in the foreseeable future - New Scientist from 2007 is 15 years ago for example. That was before the energy transition really got going. I would be very surprised if a reputable source like New Scientist would predict peak copper nowadays. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Again, I'm confused on how this could be interpreted as a fringe theory. The article's content is well-supported by reliable sources, which indicates that the phenomenon of peak copper is at least a credible idea in the scientific community. We cannot delete articles simply because their sources are a few years old, and to claim that a source would or would not make a given argument today seems like original research to me. Even if sources no longer make those same claims, that's not a reason to delete the article, but to expand the existing article to reflect the new scientific consensus. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 14:48, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If peak copper in the foreseeable future was still credible there would be reliable sources from the 2020s but I very much doubt any of you will be able to find any. I feel this article just confuses readers and distracts them from the real problems with copper supply. As an alternative to deletion how about renaming it to "copper supply" or "copper production"? There are only 2 paragraphs in Copper#Recycling and even less here but if the article is renamed I would be willing to add a bit more recycling detail here. Chidgk1 (talk) 06:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I've never really seen moving to a different title proposed as an alternative to deletion, but in any case, that conversation would be had through a

  requested move, not here. Also, the copper extraction article goes into quite a bit of detail about how copper is produced. I don't think that's directly related to this discussion, however, due to the significant difference in topics. An article covering speculation on the economic viability and inevitable depletion of a resource should not necessarily go into detail about how that resource is produced. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 06:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I see

  Copper mining redirects to the copper extraction article you mentioned, but that is historical whereas I suspect people searching for "copper mining" are more likely to be interested in current mining. In contrast gold mining has its own article. As proposed new copper mines are likely to generate a lot of disputes and press coverage this decade we should have a proper article covering mining and recycling so that journalists and environmentalists new to the subject of copper have a neutral point of view introduction. Chidgk1 (talk) 07:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Keep per TechnoSquirrel69. The timing of the forecast event is irrelevant for notability. Owen× ☎ 20:10, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• keep is well sourced, and discussed in various journals. TOOSOON wouldn't seem to apply, as this discusses what will happen with much analysis given. Oaktree b (talk) 23:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep; the article has sources and it seems like an obviously notable topic. We have an article on the
  WP:TOOSOON means. jp×g🗯️ 22:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  That is certain to occur, whereas peak copper is not certain to occur, as copper could be mined from asteroids if demand is such that it becomes economical to do so Chidgk1 (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Zeeshan Khan Rokhri

Zeeshan Khan Rokhri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Not notable yet according to WP:MUSICBIO. A WP:BEFORE search in English and Urdu turned up only the four sources currently cited: three local press articles about a cancelled concert in a small venue in England, and a passing mention in an obituary of his father Shafaullah Rokhri. It's been redirected to that article four times since creation in October 2022, on the grounds of poor sourcing or being completely unsourced, as it was when I ran across it today. Wikishovel (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Pakistan. Wikishovel (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete 4 sources are a little weak. A few more and it would have been meeting notability IMO. Royal88888 (talk) 01:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:46, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of Filipino representatives at international male beauty pageants

List of Filipino representatives at international male beauty pageants (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Beauty pageants, and Philippines. HouseBlaster^talk 16:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nominator as a
  WP:CROSSCAT violation. There also seems to be no source that discusses this list as a group, making it unlikely to be notable. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:26, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete per nomination and per TechnoSquirrel69: I've found no RS in English discussing the grouping. Wikishovel (talk) 18:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Not for Deletion per nomination and per Garcia.rock97: I've already provided links as reference to the list and prove its legitimacy. I also want to stress out that similar lists but from different countries are already published for years in this platform. Garcia.rock97 (talk) 07:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm assuming this is a !vote to keep the article? I'm not sure how your argument can be "per nomination", as the nominator is arguing for deletion. As for the references, the sheer number of citations does not prove the "legitimacy" of an article. The concern here is that the subject of the article is an unencyclopedic intersection of two arbitrarily-chosen categories. This is a violation of the

  other similar articles exist is not a strong argument in a deletion discussion. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  @

  conflict of interest regarding Man of the World (pageant). Do you also have a conflict of interest regarding this article? HouseBlaster^talk 23:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Delete when we compare this to the distaff counterpart
  Big Four pageants, so there is a more sense of arbitrariness on which male pageant is notable to include.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 00:41, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 23:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred Werner Maurer

Alfred Werner Maurer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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crosswiki spam including fake writings, see de:WP:Löschkandidaten/22. Dezember 2021#Alfred Werner Maurer (gelöscht) and de:WP:Administratoren/Anfragen/Archiv/2022/Februar#Jahrelanges Spammen von „Fake-Literatur“. My previous deletion proposal has been removed by the author [29] which I didn't notice until now. Johannnes89 (talk) 13:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Architecture and Archaeology. Johannnes89 (talk) 13:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: This seems to talk about him [30] but Gtranslate won't play nicely with the paywall, so I can't read much of it. If this is a hoax, I'd simply delete it. Oaktree b (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. It was quite an attempt to find out how three accounts in :de cheated to make Alfred Werner Maurer a notable person: de:Benutzer:Alfred Werner Maurer, de:Benutzer:Vitruv2008 and de:Benutzer:Vanessa Maurer-Schwindt. They were blocked in 2022-02-12. de:Alfred Werner Maurer was deleted in 2006, 2008 and finally in 2022. They pretended Alfred Werner Maurer's texts beeing published as printed books although they mostly existed if at all only on his private websites. All about the affair in German on de:Benutzer:A. Leiwand/Literatur. A. Leiwand (talk) 10:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Widerspruch zu der Löschung Kein Spammen von "Fake-Literatur" gegeben. Vitruv2008 (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

--Objection to the requent for deletion--

There are no legitimate reasons for deletation.

[[User:|Vitruv2008]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitruv2008 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Widerspruch gegen die Löschung des Wikipedia Artikels "Alfred Werner Maurer" Der Inhalt der Wikipedia-Seite Alfred Werner Maurer ist zutreffend. Kein Spammen von "Fake-Literatur" gegeben. Der Antragsteller johannes89 versucht unbegründet das Ansehen der Person und seine wissenschaftliche Arbeit in der Architektur, Kunstgeschichte und Archäologie zu mindern. Gegen diese Versuche wurde bereits eine Prüfung bei [email protected] beantragt. Es handelt sich um einen Versuch persönlichen Widerspruch in der Öffentlich zu bestreiten.

vitruv2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4700:D300:5183:C8DD:5F7F:4289 (talk) 17:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Der Antragsteller der den Löschantrag "Alfred Werner Maurer" in allen Ländern auch mit Erfolg versucht den Wikipedia-Beitrag ohne wirkliche Gründe hinter dem Schutz der Anonymität seiner Person in der Wikipedia. Er beeinflusst das Löschen von Tatsachen wider besseres Wissen so zum Beispiel bei der Grabung "Mumbaqat" und "Schloss Saarbrücken" . Zum Beispiel bei der Literatur und der Tätigkeit und Beteiligungen. Mangels seiner Anonymität wird die Klärung der Tatsachen durch ein Rechtsmittel verhindert.

vitruv2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4700:D300:5183:C8DD:5F7F:4289 (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

No spamming of “fake literature” given. Vitruvius2008 (talk) 11:50, August 26, 2023 (UTC)

--Objection to the consistent for deletion--

There are no legitimate reasons for deletion.

[[User:|Vitruv2008]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitruv2008 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Objection to the deletion of the Wikipedia article "Alfred Werner Maurer" The content of the Wikipedia page Alfred Werner Maurer is accurate. No spamming of “fake literature” given. The applicant johannes89 is trying to diminish the person's reputation and his academic work in architecture, art history and archeology without justification. An examination against these attempts has already been submitted to [email protected]. It is an attempt to deny personal contradictions in public.

vitruv2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4700:D300:5183:C8DD:5F7F:4289 (talk) 17:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The applicant who submitted the "Alfred Werner Maurer" request for deletion in all countries also successfully tried to delete the Wikipedia article without any real reasons behind protecting his person's anonymity in Wikipedia. He influences the deletion of facts against better knowledge, for example in the excavations "Mumbaqat" and "Schloss Saarbrücken". For example in literature and activities and participations. The lack of anonymity prevents the facts from being clarified through legal action.

vitruv2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4700:D300:5183:C8DD:5F7F:4289 (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4700:D300:5183:C8DD:5F7F:4289 (talk)

Categories: Biography articles of living peopleStart-Class biography articlesWikiProject Biography articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C8:4715:AB00:A822:CCF4:9948:D422 (talk) 10:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Regardless of whether this is a hoax or not, I'm simply not seeing enough sources to substantiate notability. Edit: Having looked into this on the German wiki, I concur that that this article is connected to extensive promotional spam, so I say delete with prejudice. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge‎ to India–Russia relations. The discussion has been quite sparse, but from reading the comments, this looks like an outcome all the participants would find acceptable. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Embassy of India, Moscow

Embassy of India, Moscow (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination

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Subject fails GNG. Efforts to redirect this have failed. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bilateral relations, India, and Russia. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete article is just a list of ambassadors and not in-depth coverage of the actual embassy. LibStar (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 07:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge as ATD, to
  WP:NOPAGE. Alternate target India–Russia relations. —siroχo 05:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to List of ambassadors of India to Russia per siroxo. Darling (talk) 14:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why an embassy article should be merged to a list of ambassadors. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Someone searching the word embassy is not looking for a list of ambassadors. For this reason, I still think deletion is the best option. LibStar (talk) 08:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz, it's generally encouraged that lists provide context. If we take a look at a sibling article—List of ambassadors of Russia to India—it does a decent job of providing such context.

In this case, part of List of ambassadors of India to Russia is already excerpted into this article and it fits pretty well, so we can continue that approach under the new title with just a bit of finessing. But overall it seems like a natural merge.

The alternative is the bilateral relations article, but I think that is a broader topic, so I prefer the ambassadors article for a level of precision. —siroχo 08:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge with India–Russia relations. This seems to be the standard way of covering diplomatic missions when the embassies are not notable on their own. I see no reason to deviate from that practice. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala. Clear consensus below that the article shouldn't be retained, but no real agreement on whether to merge or not. Redirecting (as they are cheap) and if anyone needs to merge content at any point, they can do so editorially from behind the redirect. Daniel (talk) 00:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dhevvadhoo dynasty

Dhevvadhoo dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination

)

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Subject fails

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Maldives. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could merge the information from these dynasty pages into the

Sultanate of Maldives? These articles barely seem to be notable on their own, it would make more sense to merge them into the history section of the actual state. 296cherry (talk) 17:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• I’d assumed that being a royal dynasty would have some inherent notability, but if that’s not the case I fully understand. We should probably take a look at the similarly sourced articles Dhiyamigili dynasty and Isdhoo dynasty as well. Perhaps the whole lot should be deleted? Basically, I was trying to fill in the gaps, with improved sourcing and content. The UNESCO site does contain this direct reference to the Dhevvadhoo dynasty though

“ The Friday mosque in the island of Fenfushi was built between 1692-1701 CE during the reign of Sultan Mohamed of Dhevvadhu (1692-1701 CE)” so it’s not accurate to say that there isn’t a mention. Hy Brasil (talk) 00:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I had been planning to go through this entire category of Maldivian dynasties and add more sourcing (it’s quite lacking), but if it’s likely they will be deleted, I won’t bother. It’s good this came up. Hy Brasil (talk) 01:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I searched all the social science oriented libraries and databases available through TWL for both "Dhevvadhoo" and "Dhevvadhu". Got a few news hits for Dhevvadhoo as a toponym, and the one other source is an open access publication [31] which has the same sentence as the UNESCO source, about Sultan Mohamed of Dhevvadhu (1692-1701 CE). Given this date span is identical to the Pakistan Observer source from the article (Singh 2022), I suggest that the "Devvadhoo dynasty" is "the one sultan that one time from the island of Dhevvadhoo / Dhevvadhu". Maybe Sultan Mohamed of Dhevvadhu has sources in some language, but I doubt his "dynasty" (which, sensu strictu isn't, as it involves no familial succession) has any notability independent from the individual. Folly Mox (talk) 07:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. Discussion is great but it would also be helpful to know where editors ultimately stand on what should happen with this article. Does the article have issues that can resolved through editing or it is better to delete it from main space?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the articles should be deleted and merged into

Sultanate of Maldives. They don't hold enough weight to stand alone, and they work perfectly fine within the main article's text. 296cherry (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• I haven't looked at the whole series (and honestly probably don't have time to), but the redlink merge target I proposed above already exists at Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala (which was probably already in the article when I commented on 17 October, had I bothered to do the reading instead of just looking for sources). Suggest merge into Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala, leaving behind a redirect for the six inbound mainspace links. Folly Mox (talk) 10:47, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as we have two different Merge targets suggested here. Editors have to come to a consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I agree with merging into Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala 296cherry (talk) 19:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Amongst other problems, discussing a dynasty with a single member is like having a school of a single fish. I cannot find any source that clearly and unambiguously refers to this as a dynasty (probably for the reason just mentioned), thus failing
  WP:GNG. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala per FM; from a practical POV, a "dynasty" of one person is that person, so to speak. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment https://pakobserver.net/dynastic-profile-of-muslim-rulers-in-maldives-by-dr-rajkumar-singh-bihar/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by CAJaganaddamRJY (talk • contribs) 04:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Nothing to merge; all the contents are already present in Mohamed bin Hajj Ali Thukkala. It's also an unlikely search term, but redirects are cheap, so might as well leave it as one. Owen× ☎ 20:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete How does one person make a dynasty? I can see only one source (Pakistan Observer) which uses the term, my searches did not turn up anything else; article appears to be
  original research. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

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2023 World Series of Poker Online

2023 World Series of Poker Online (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Incomplete article, disputed draftification, unreferenced. The event was to conclude on 2 October, so why is it in this state with blank tables? Not suitable for mainspace. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, Games, and Internet. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Unreferenced articles should be draftified or deleted. The history of this one seems to be of
  gaming the system to get an article, and not finishing it, so it might as well either be started over, or not started over. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Draftify the main contributor, User:Officially Mr X, was already open to it being draftified. It definitely should not have been put into the mainspace. Though I'm sure it could actually turn up some sources, there are not nearly enough for its own article at this time. Conyo14 (talk) 22:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - as per previous seasons, this is a useful and relevant article to keep - we can fill in any missing information in the near future, but even the amount of information currently listed is very useful, and covers the most important information. Let's just make it public and move on - I don't think it's worth discussing at length. Officially Mr X (talk) 13:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Draftify -
  WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP but the article as of right now is definitely not ready for mainspace. – The Grid (talk) 16:29, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @The Grid, if you want the article cleaned up, then it needs to stay in the mainspace. m:Research:Wikipedia article creation and m:Research:AfC processes and productivity indicate that the draftspace is where articles go to die. In the mainspace, people see what needs doing and do it. In the draftspace, nobody cares.

  The standard for getting an article out of draftspace isn't whether the article is

  WP:FINISHED; it's about whether the article covers a notable subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:39, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. See
  12 different reasons for deletion -- this article doesn't meet any of them. The edit history shows Officially Mr X
  has been editing the article off and on through October 23rd. Two days later it was nominated for deletion. I appreciate Mr. X's diligent content creation and I see no need to delete this content -- just keep working on the article.

I've tagged it for now with a {{under construction}} tag.

In the meantime, I suggest just deleting or suppressing the incomplete portions.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to WSOP until such time as there's sufficient sourcing to merit a standalone article. While the tournament overall is be notable, there's no indication that this edition was. Star Mississippi 01:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Redirect to WSOP - agree with StarMiss (hey!) above. Kazamzam (talk) 11:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 13:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Protection note, tired of playing whack a sock so I have semi'ed for a week. I did !vote but don't think this is controversial as any autoconfirmed editor remains eligible to participate, and the Talk is available to any legit newbies. Admins, feel free to revert if needed. Star Mississippi 14:10, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The World Series overall is notable, not this specific tournament. Cortador (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete just an unreferenced list of winners. We don't simply post tournament results in WP. LibStar (talk) 01:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• redirect to [32] Hobit (talk) 18:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. As it stands, the article is still unsourced. Merely being unsourced is generally not enough to delete an article-
  appropriate alternative to deletion. VickKiang (talk) 02:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete as simply an
  indiscriminate collection of information. While it's true that we shouldn't just delete an article because it's unsourced, that nobody has come forward with any sources in almost a month is somewhat telling. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete no reliable sourcing present here or in the article to satisfy
  WP:NLIST. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

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Lane Bess

Lane Bess (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Fails

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople, Finance, Technology, and New Jersey. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Is one of the first civilians to go into suborbital spaceflight. Is that not notable? Stravensky (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @

WP:HEYMANN can be found to upgrade the article. I will post a notice at WP:WIR to see if you can find other folk that may help. scope_creep^Talk 13:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

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Thank you. I have tried my best for years to contribute helpful info. I would hate to lose every page rather than just improve them. I appreciate your help and will look for more references. Stravensky (talk) 13:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've left a message at Women in Red. Hope it helps. scope_creep^Talk 13:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought this was a women. Its a dude. scope_creep^Talk 13:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think he is probably been paid to go to space. I don't think it necessarily notable. We will see what the sources say. scope_creep^Talk 13:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• After reading this profile of Bess in the Miami Herald, I'd say that Bess doesn't really seem to be notable as a tech executive. There is some coverage regarding his appointment as CEO of DeepInstinct, but it's mostly press releases. Simply being a passenger of the New Shepard flight doesn't really contribute to his notability, in my opinion, but perhaps a redirect to New_Shepard#Flight_list would be better than deletion? Mooonswimmer 15:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Mooonswimmer & @Scope creep One other thought is that Lane and his son Cameron were the first ever father and son duo to go into space together. That alone seems quite notable. Stravensky (talk) 22:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Stravensky: It is very slim and is not really recognised as something that is considered notable unfortunately. scope_creep^Talk 22:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep I believe there is an article in "Advocate" about his son Cameron also being the first openly LGBT person to go to space. I can find more articles about the first father and son duo if helpful. I am not sure I understand why being the first father and son duo to go to space would not be notable? Regardless, he was CEO of both Zscaler and Palo Alto Networks, which are two of the largest cyber security firms in the United States, which also felt notable at the time I submitted the page. Stravensky (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Stravensky: That is really slim as well. I never really agreed with the "first person to do something" thing, although is it used in here in various quarters in here, to the prove the person is notable but I always thought so it was so tenuous. We will take a look at the state of the references in the next couple of days. scope_creep^Talk 23:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We can always add references but being the first is commonly accepted as notable (Neil Armstrong, etc). I don't understand the attack of these pages for sourcing if most people would agree they are notable. I have added references to other people's articles that had zero sources in order to improve their articles rather than nominating to just delete every article they wrote. Stravensky (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mooonswimmer I just added 6 other references I just found online, and deleted one sentence that sounded promotional. There is a WSJ interview and two additional profiles from Carnegie Mellon University among them. Stravensky (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Lets examine the first two blocks of references. They seem very poor just a raw reading.

Ref 1 [33] It is a puff piece article, information taken from social media. It is not independent. It is non-rs

Ref 2 [34] This looks like fake website. Who is Lane Bess. It is non-rs.

Ref 3 [35] This is interview style article. It is not independent.

Ref 4 [36] This is a profile. It is not significant nor independent.

Ref 5 [37] News for donating £10million to Carnegie Mellon

Ref 6 [38] Same press-release as Ref 5

Ref 7 [39] Not significant. Fails

WP:CORPDEPTH

. Does prove he was a ceo.

Ref 8 [40] Paid for profile. Not independent.

Ref 9 [41] Passing mention.

Ref 10 [42] Press-release

Ref 11 [43] press-release

Ref 12 [44] States it is an CRN interview. Not independent.

Ref 13 Unable to locate this, but it is routine news of an appointment. Not significant.

Ref 14 [45] Press-release

Ref 15 [46] Profile.

Ref 16 [47] Passing mention.

I'm not going to do the rest. These are all press-release, passing mentionss and interviews and profiles, typical of a successful businessman. Per

Thanks for this. Understood on all of the above. The sources on going into space seem to be the top secondary sources about notability for being first parent/child pair to ever go into space together. Maybe the page should not mention as much of business side but notability for going into space seems clear. Stravensky (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Lots of discussion here but few opinions for what should happen with this article beyond the nominator.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep, what do you think of a redirect to New_Shepard#Flight_list ? Mooonswimmer 18:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]