Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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I am here to appeal my indefinite Topic Ban from caste-related articles which was imposed after discussion in this ANI thread. The thread was started by

proposal, I had hardly participated in the discussion. But now, I decided to cast my vote.

.

Now, the

with the following remarks: "WP:BOOMERANG, Ratnahastin and Shinjoya are indefinitely topic-banned from editing caste-related topics. While 90-day, indefinite, and "permanent" topic-ban lengths were suggested and not really reconciled in discussion, my assessment is that the arguments for an indefinite ban are stronger. While other bans were suggested as well (an IBAN, and bans on participation at SPI), these suggestions did not gain much support and do not appear to be necessary at this time, although involved editors should be aware that further misuse or disruption at SPI will not be tolerated. Finally, note that while caste-related topics are a DS-topic as part of WP:ARBIND, this action is a normal community sanction and not a DS-sanction."

Now, I will not talk about topic ban on User:Ratnahastin but I would like to appeal topic ban against me on the following grounds :

• Not a single edit diff was presented by any user in the entire thread to prove my edits as disruptive or POV. It seems the concerned admin Rosguill took this decision in a hurry without bothering about the availability of evidences. I still challenge if someone can prove my single edit as POV.

• I am a fairly experienced user with almost 4 years of experience and making over 1200 edits. I was never blocked or topic banned before this. A topic ban on me is like a black mark on my career as an editor.

• The
  WP:BOOMERANG
  proposal, I was hardly involved in the thread. I was deliberately dragged in the voting by users who had content disputes with me.

• Though, I am aware that
  WP: Wikipedia is not a democracy, but in practice, the verdict of such proposals is generally decided by the number of votes and only 5 out of 12 votes went against me. And if we subtract those users who had content disputes with me, only 1 out of 7 users voted against me. So, on what basis did the admin decide that a permanent topic ban on me would be appropriate? (I wish to clarify that Amar.kumar.goel had voted for a 90 day ban on User: Ratnahastin alone saying "as per above" citing the vote of Chariotrider555 here. But on the next day, Chariotrider555 added a yet another comment in between his older vote and Aman.kumar.goel's vote supporting ban on both me and Ratnahastin here. I am giving this clarification because I think that admin Rosguill might have mistaken the vote of Amar.kumar.goel
  as against me while having a final read before giving the verdict.)

• I think the opinion of Fowler&fowler was given undue weight as he had asked for an indefinite ban on me. In that Boomerang voting, he presented himself as an experienced editor showing his achievements on Wikipedia. This might have influenced the admin to give more weight to his opinion. But as I mentioned above, his behaviour with me doesn't seem to have come from an experienced user. He violated
  WP:NPOV while making remarks like this and this on Talk: Prithviraj Chauhan
  .

• Topic banning me from caste-related articles can be a big loss for our encyclopedia as caste-related articles were my main interest. Banning me would only give opportunity to some users to continue with their POV editing. Since a long time, I have been accusing users like Heba Aisha and LukeEmily of POV editing. Its hardly 2 hours that I have been banned and these two users have already begun their work of restoring caste articles to their prefferred versions citing a typical excuse that User: Shinjoya (myself) has been banned. In this edit to Rajput page, User:Heba Aisha has restored the version dated 2 December 2020. Due to this edit of hers, the hard work put in by various editors in last six months goes in vain. This was the reason for their desperation to get me banned. They consider caste-related articles as their own property. Such users will spoil the caste-related articles. In my absence, there would be hardly anyone to look after their POV edits.

So, on the grounds of above mentioned points, I humbly request admins to reconsider their decision of banning me. Shinjoya (talk) 20:42, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In support of lifting the ban from

WP:PoV Violations, so that a user who wants to improve wikipedia, can do it with peace of mind. Sajaypal007 (talk) 21:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• My reasoning for this tban is primarily based on Shinjoya's participation in that discussion itself, which included an excessive amount of badgering including a frivolous, ill-fated counter-boomerang proposal to tban Heba Aisha. They have not adequately responded to concerns raised by Fowler&Fowler, choosing instead to term concerns raised by F&F as harassment and hounding, although they fall well short of that as far as I have seen. There was enough discussion of potentially tbanning Shinjoya that I felt comfortable implementing it as a community ban, although had that not been the case I would likely have implemented a similar ban as a DS action under
  WP:ARBIPA._signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:21, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

If my proposal to ban Heba Aisha was an ill-fated counter boomerang, then so was her proposal for banning me. She demanded it first despite being aware that the boomerang was against

WP:HOUNDING). As I said earlier, the opinion of User:Fowler&fowler was given more weightage while at the same time, I too had accused User:Heba Aisha and User:LukeEmily of making POV edits quoting names of multiple articles, but my point was left unheard. And within 2 hours of my TBAN, User:Heba Aisha reverted the Rajput page to a six month old version which clearly indicates something wrong in her intent. Now she has done a similar edit in Bhonsle page. Please take a note of this. Shinjoya (talk) 00:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose lifting the topic ban. POV editing that either promotes or denigrates any caste is deeply disruptive and I am in favor of imposing swift indefinite topic bans on any offenders. Shinjoya's conduct in that ANI discussion made it clear that they need to be removed from the caste topic area. Trying to appeal the topic ban so rapidly is a strong indication that they just don't get it. Stating caste-related articles were my main interest is a big red flag because we do not need editors who are obsessed with caste. Shinjoya should spend at least six months or preferably a year making productive contribution in topic areas other than caste. This is a neutral encyclopedia, not a battleground for caste warriors. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If stating that caste is my main interest raises eyebrows, then why does Wikipidea have these caste-related articles at all? If they exist, that means they are meant for editing. So, I don't think I said anything wrong by stating the caste is my main area of interest. Please check edit contributions of User:Heba Aisha and User:LukeEmily. They hardly edit any articles other than caste-related. They should also be banned using this logic. And as I said earlier, I challenge this accusation of doing POV editor. I always provide a proper and valid edit summary wherever necessary unlike some other users like Heba Aisha who reverts to six month old version saying "this is better version". Shinjoya (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These caste articles should be edited primarily by people who are entirely neutral about castes, relying on the highest quality modern academic sources. The other editors you mention have not been topic banned. You are topic banned and so it is your editing which is under scrutiny. As for your edit summaries, I see many edits that you have made in recent months without an edit summary. If you want this topic ban lifted, then you should edit productively and uncontroversially in other areas for at least six months or longer, and then convince the community that the chance of you being disruptive in the caste topic area is zero. Right now, I am completely unconvinced. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Cullen328: I'd ask that you look at what I just posted in response to the evidence presented by LukeEmily, whose claims of pov-pushing at the original ANI thread (unsupported by evidence) are one of the reasons why we're here. [9] Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 06:32, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• You know what? Support unban but immediately open a thread on whether to topic ban Shinjoya. There wasn't any evidence presented against Shinjoya at the original thread. It was procedurally unfair to boomerang on someone who hasn't had any actual evidence presented against them and just made a bad statement at AN/I, given that it's pretty clear that the discussion to tban Shinjoya was mostly based on Shinjoya's editing in the area not on their AN/I comments. I'm not saying that boomeranging against someone who participates is wrong, but there should be actual evidence presented during the discussion about said person's behaviour or a consensus that their participation at the AN/I thread was "bad enough" to show they need a topic ban. The only evidence is that people who Shinjoya had interacted with made claims that he acted badly. None of those claims were supported by diffs. And Shinjoya's behaviour that I can see at the thread they linked doesn't meet the standard of "bad enough" I'd like to see for an indef. And in response to Rosguill, imposing as a community authorized decision doesn't make sense as the community didn't support to ban Shinjoya on the basis of what he said at the t-ban proposal but on the basis that they're a pov-pusher. I think it's important that we reopen this and examine this specific user's contributions in detail before giving them a t-ban from an area they've edited in since 2018 [10]. Even though AN/I isn't a legal system it's unfair to give someone a t-ban when they haven't been given the opportunity to see & refute the evidence against them (no diffs) and I think we can do better than that. Especially when the consensus to tban Shinjoya was pretty weak. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 03:14, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Shinjoya needs to note that they're unlikely to get other editors banned from the area. They tried that and failed. Continuing to do so is an issue and they've already mentioned they were involved in a content dispute with certain people. This will be likely be weighted by any people closing this discussion. I supported an unban because not enough evidence of bad behaviour was shown at the previous AN/I thread, but I'll change that if evidence of bad behaviour is posted or created here. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 06:57, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sir, I am not trying to get any other users banned. If they continue to make false accusations on me, then I will be forced to show the other side of coin. As I said, these 3-4 users like LukeEmily, Heba Aisha, Chariotrider555 and Fowler&fowler should not be allowed to participate in this discussion as it would only make the things lengthy. Shinjoya (talk) 07:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:BRD

but you can do better than that. It doesn't matter if other people don't want to follow this standard; people will examine your behaviour at ANI or AN and if your behaviour isn't stellar in the topic area not many people will care about how other people have behaved. I don't believe this is right and my comments at AN reflect that but that's the way things work so you should adopt the mindset of "being better" so to speak.

In addition to the previous, you should really consider using the

WP:RFC mechanism in the future when you are involved in a dispute with other editors that you can't resolve by discussion. When you start an RfC, a robot sends out messages to random groups of editors alerting them of the RfC and inviting them to participate, as well as posting the RfC to a central noticeboard. This'll get you opinions from around Wikipedia, not from people who are heavily involved in editing caste articles. You should be aware that you need to resolve the dispute into a single yes or no question first (or at least a question with 4 options or less), and that when you start the RfC the wording has to be completely neutral with respect to the dispute (you have to put your opinion as a comment on the RfC). If you're unsure ask someone else e.g. me. If it turns out you screwed up the RfC you likely won't get sanctioned because you asked for help. You shouldn't start too many RfCs either, only do it for something that's actually important. Also note that once an RfC happens and ends with consensus on an issue, that's it. The issue is resolved. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 07:24, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

MOS:FIRST, I proposed the change on talk page first on 26 May, then only I changed the lead on 31 May. I got no opposition views till then and even by today, no one has expressed opposition to it in that talk page thread. So, I think this can be considered a consensus. I don't know why LukeEmily always cite my similar edits of 2017 and 2018 when he has no point to express in the relavant thread. Shinjoya (talk) 07:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@Chess:

Here is partial evidence to show deletion of negative sourced content, misrepresenting sources etc.

The pattern I have noticed in Shinjoya's edits is that once his removals are reverted, he waits and tries again. Secondly, he removes well sourced content under the pretext of

or makes a comment on the talk page and writes "removing as per discussion on talk page" even though others disagree. He has a tendency to call some western sources "hoax". He even questions the veracity of respected sources like Dr.Gordon who has been supported and quoted by numerous other sources. The other way he has removed sourced material is to put a ^{[need quotation to verify]} after a source and then wiping out the long standing content after a few days giving the excuse of "quote not available". The following are examples:

1. [11]: Blanking out a 1992 University of California source and a 2014 Oxford University source that discusses alcoholism in the Rajput community. He could have moved it to another parallel section but he chose to blank out the hard work of other editors. He has tried to remove this couple of years back and did it again in 2021.

2. [12] Removal of a sentence mentioning Shudra from the start of the section as well as other edits(cluster of castes - please see 3) that were explained to him by admin.

3.Persistantly try removing "Rajput cluster of castes" removal despite being reverted and explained the issue by admin. Hoping to push his POV for several years without involving original admin.

Talk:Rajput/Archive_25#"Indian_caste", administrator utcursch has patiently explained Shinjoya why his edits that removed "cluster of castes" were reverted.

year 2017 Shinjoya's edit war with admin on the same issue: [13] [14]

year 2018 Shinjoya's same edits again - he removed cluster of castes version: [15] reverted by admin here [16]

He tried the same edit in 2021 without waiting for input from others, especially the involved admin who reverted him many times. [17]

I believe he will continue trying until someone does not object - is it

?

On the Maratha page, he has been trying to divorce them from their well sourced Kunbi origin.

4. Removal of long standing content supported by several sources. Wiping out of a section supported by sources. [18]

5.Another removal of another well sourced section. [19] Shinjoya also called the content well cited by David Ludlen a "hoax" on the talk page.

6. Removal of Susan Bayly source and her statement about Bhonsale's Kunbi origin two times. [20] [21]]

7. Persistent effort to remove Kunbi from lede.

A large number of sources mention Kunbi - see Maratha_(caste)#Origin that has a number of sources mentioning Kunbi, Shepherd etc.. But he removed those words from the lede.

a. First he claims there is no quotation and then removes the content in 6 days. First added "quotation needed tag" [22] and then removes the sources content a few days later.[23]. Note that the quotations are available.

b. Heba rightly reverts all removals [24] explaining on the talk page [25] she is concerned that so much content has been deleted. She also gives the quote from Gordon(already on the main page) that Shinjoya falsely claimed to be "missing". c. Now, Shinjoya changes his strategy by doubting the scholarship of Stewart_N._Gordon, a respected academic. He argues against the content of the book although it is well supported by other scholars on the same page. [26] and goes ahead and reverts to his version later by saying "it(their origin) will always be a puzzle etc.".

8. He added a photograph of Indian soldiers from the Indian army on the Maratha caste page. Would the Indian Government separate soldiers by caste in the 21st century? Are those soldiers really of the Maratha caste to be added on a caste page?

9. Attempts to date back the origin of the Maratha caste by misrepresenting sources:

Gordon[^[1]] and others like Eraly[^[2]], etc have clarified that the word Maratha before 1600 simply meant resident of Maharashtra.

Also see [27] But in Military System of the Marathas, Sunrendra Nath Sen(a Raj era source) also clarifies on page 12 " It is also necessary to point out that in the following pages the w'ord Maratha has not been (except when otherwise indicated) used in the caste sense."

And here he is misrepresenting sources to show on the Maratha caste page that the word 'Marathe' is even mentioned in inscriptions by quoting Novetzke. [28]. Here a reader will get the feeling that the Maratha caste existed as shown in old inscriptions even as early as 1311. American scholar Christian Lee Novetzke is completely misrepresented by not giving complete context by Shinjoya in But Dr.Noverzke himself has clarified in the continuing sentence that the Marathe term refers to neither the Maratha caste nor Maharashtra. The complete quote is here The first attestation of the term marathe as a self-designation by the Yadavas occurs in an inscription, discussed in chapter 2, attributed to the reign of Ramachandra or Singhana III, the last inscription of the Yadavas offering a gift to the pandharpur temple,dated to 1311 CE. The word does not mean Maharashtra, which occurs much earlier as a name for the region; and the word does not indicate the maratha caste/jati either. Instead the word means belonging to Maharashtra as Feldhaus and Tulpule gloss the word but it implies the confluence of language, religion, culture and place, as we will see below.. As you can see the above is clear evidence to misrepresent a source to promote the Maratha caste when the source itself is explicit in clarifying that the word is not connected to the caste at all! Honestly, I find Shinjoya's attitude, counter attacks and edits much more worrisome than Ratnahastin.LukeEmily (talk) 11:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@LukeEmily, You are trying to label my general edits as POV. I will now respond to all your questions one by one:

[29]: Blanking out a 1992 University of California source and a 2014 Oxford University source that discusses alcoholism in the Rajput community. He could have moved it to another parallel section but he chose to blank out the hard work of other editors. He has tried to remove this couple of years back and did it again in 2021.

False claim. I never removed any content pertaining to Rajput alcoholism. I removed the Diet section citing its irrelevance. It was based on Raj era writing and had no relevance today. On being reverted, the matter was taken to talk page and there, you yourself agreed to the removal of Diet section and proposed the content to be shifted to "British section" here. So, the matter got sort out after our discussion and now you are alleging it to be a POV edit.

[30] Removal of a sentence mentioning Shudra from the start of the section as well as other edits(cluster of castes - please see 3) that were explained to him by admin.

Here, I made a revert to

should have avoided a flawed edit summary.

3.Persistantly try removing "Rajput cluster of castes" removal despite being reverted and explained the issue by admin. Hoping to push his POV for several years without involving original admin.

Talk:Rajput/Archive_25#"Indian_caste", administrator utcursch has patiently explained Shinjoya why his edits that removed "cluster of castes" were reverted.

year 2017 Shinjoya's edit war with admin on the same issue: [31] [32]

year 2018 Shinjoya's same edits again - he removed cluster of castes version: [33] reverted by admin here [34]

He tried the same edit in 2021 without waiting for input from others, especially the involved admin who reverted him many times. [35]

How does changing a complex definition like cluster of castes to a simple one be considered as POV? Why do you think its POV? I didn't edit war in 2017, 2018. I made edits on finding that there were no sufficient citations to support the definition. When provided citations by Utcursch, I got convinced. I didn't do any edit warring. If I was edit warring, why didn't admin Utcursch warn me? In 2021, I got aware of the

and updated the first lead line. My proposal to first lead line has got no opposition whatsoever.

4. Removal of long standing content supported by several sources. Wiping out of a section supported by sources. [36]

I found that some non-notable issue was discussed in the section which was a dispute between two individuals. Hence, I removed it as per

. If you were not convinced, you should have discussed the matter which you didn't. This implies that you too agreed with my edit, but now terming it as POV edit.

5.Another removal of another well sourced section. [37] Shinjoya also called the content well cited by David Ludlen a "hoax" on the talk page.

I removed the section as per talk page. An IP editor raised concern about the section here. Considering his concern as genuine, I removed the section. You were inactive on wikipedia in those days. As soon as you returned, you restored the section. Then, the matter was discussed by us in the same thread. I haven't removed the section from the day you restored it. Then how can there be a POV angle? Much of the quotations to the sources were provided by you later on. Initially, there were a very few. Thats why I initially suspected that the section can be a hoax as I wasn't able to find too many sources to prove casteist colour to the event, which I discussed with you on talk page. You are bringing very minute content disputes here, which is nothing but nitpicking.

6. Removal of Susan Bayly source and her statement about Bhonsale's Kunbi origin two times. [38] [39]]

Already explained removal of Susan Bayly source here. He couldn't provide any significant material on "origin of

" subject. Thats why I removed it. And you seemed to have no objection to my explanation. And now, you are referring it as POV edit.

7. Persistent effort to remove Kunbi from lede.

A large number of sources mention Kunbi - see Maratha_(caste)#Origin that has a number of sources mentioning Kunbi, Shepherd etc.. But he removed those words from the lede.

a. First he claims there is no quotation and then removes the content in 6 days. First added "quotation needed tag" [40] and then removes the sources content a few days later.[41]. Note that the quotations are available.

Heba rightly reverts all removals [42] explaining on the talk page [43] she is concerned that so much content has been deleted. She also gives the quote from Gordon(already on the main page) that Shinjoya falsely claimed to be "missing".

I edited

article for the first time on 10 May 2021. Now, see yourself the version of 9 May 2021. The Stewart Gordon's source which support the first lead line in this version was not even cited as source for the line. Gordon's source was cited at some other place of article. Now, you can't expect me to read the entire article to find the apt source. The first lead line was wrongly cited. So, I did nothing wrong in removing it.

c. Now, Shinjoya changes his strategy by doubting the scholarship of Stewart_N._Gordon, a respected academic.He argues against the content of the book although it is well supported by other scholars on the same page. [44] and goes ahead and reverts to his version later by saying "it(their origin) will always be a puzzle etc.".

We don't give undue weightage to a single source when other sources don't directly support it. Opinion of a lone writer cannot be written as a general statement without attribution and that too, in lead section. We discussed the matter here. You said on 31 May 2021 that you will come back with more sources which support Gordon's statement. But you are yet to provide any till date.

8. He added a photograph of Indian soldiers from the Indian army on the Maratha caste page. Would the Indian Government separate soldiers by caste in the 21st century? Are those soldiers really of the Maratha caste to be added on a caste page?

Maratha Light Infantry is named after Maratha caste and it recruits majorly from Marathas. Hence, I added the image in the relevant section. You raised no objection at that time but now referring it as POV.

9. Attempts to date back the origin of the Maratha caste by misrepresenting sources:

Gordon[^[1]] and others like Eraly[^[2]], etc have clarified that the word Maratha before 1600 simply meant resident of Maharashtra.

Also see [45] But in Military System of the Marathas, Sunrendra Nath Sen(a Raj era source) also clarifies on page 12 It is also necessary to point out that in the following pages the w'ord Maratha has not been (except when otherwise indicated) used in the caste sense.

And here he is misrepresenting sources to show on the Maratha caste page that the word 'Marathe' is even mentioned in inscriptions by quoting Novetzke. [46]. Here a reader will get the feeling that the Maratha caste existed as shown in old inscriptions even as early as 1311. American scholar Christian Lee Novetzke is completely misrepresented by not giving complete context by Shinjoya in But Dr.Noverzke himself has clarified in the continuing sentence that the Marathe term refers to neither the Maratha caste nor Maharashtra. The complete quote is here The first attestation of the term marathe as a self-designation by the Yadavas occurs in an inscription, discussed in chapter 2, attributed to the reign of Ramachandra or Singhana III, the last inscription of the Yadavas offering a gift to the pandharpur temple,dated to 1311 CE. The word does not mean Maharashtra, which occurs much earlier as a name for the region; and the word does not indicate the maratha caste/jati either. Instead the word means belonging to Maharashtra as Feldhaus and Tulpule gloss the word but it implies the confluence of language, religion, culture and place, as we will see below.. As you can see the above is clear evidence to misrepresent a source to promote the Maratha caste when the source itself is explicit in clarifying that the word is not connected to the caste at all! Honestly, I find Shinjoya's attitude, counter attacks and edits much more worrisome than Ratnahastin.

I found the content related to Marathe as relevant to the article, hence added it. I didn't add Novetzke alone, but also added two Indian writers who claimed a Maratha origin of Yadava dynasty.^[3][4] As you have a point, you can simply remove the source. As far as Noverzke's self dismissal of usage of the term for caste designation is concerned, you can see that full preview was not available in Gbook citation. I couldn't even access the clarification line which you have presented now.

You are just trying to exaggerate minor content disputes some of which, you didn't even object previously.

I too found some serious POV issues in your editing in

]

Shinjoya, Are you serious?Minor content disputes ? You have blanked out entire negative sections that were sourced and misrepresented the caste. Also, Khatri are an advanced and literate caste unlike the Rajputs. My Khatri edit was correct. The source talks about their ritual status not about their advancement. I don't know what you mean by "you have a strong POV of portraying forward castes as Shudra backward people". I have studied Sanskritization which discusses origins of many castes. Khatris are not backward, in fact, Iravati Karve considered them as an advanced caste in her study. Shudra and backward are different. I never said they are backward. And I am only interested in fixing puffery found on caste pages. The non-Brahmin castes from the Bhadralok were also considered Shudra at times as they did not follow Vedic practices but they are quite advanced, same is true with the Bunts(they worshipped non-Vedic dieties) - so are the editors such as Sitush and others who added some sources that state Shudra on these advanced (non-peasant) castes also interested in showing all forward castes backward? And what fabrication? Khatris have been studied in Maharashtra by anthropologists. It is a fact that only a few castes were allowed to study Vedas due to the strict ritual system in Maharashtra. And the source says In Maharashtra , the Khatri have different subgroups , such as Brahmo Khatri , Gujarathi Khatri , Kapur Khatri , Sahashtrarjun Khatri , Surthi ^[5]. So where is the fabrication? The quote about Khatris is cited in Vijaya Gupchup's book - she is a PhD and a historian. Is she also interested in showing forward castes Shudra? As far as Rajputs were concerned, they were backward and illiterate even in the Raj era (as per the academic sources, this is not my personal opinion), but the Khatris in Maharashtra were advanced but still treated a ritually low in the 19th century. This is a historical fact. Personally, I consider Khatri an advanced caste but Rajput as a backward community. But please understand that I am not putting my personal opinions and am simply citing sources. If you have opposing sources, you are free to quote them. Have I ever removed any sourced content (unlike you)? You seem to be engaging in personal attacks and second guessing intentions of editors. Most of my sources are carefully chosen and I always choose the best academic sources I can find as they are the most neutral. If you have opposing views, you need to produce sources instead of criticizing intentions. I am sorry to say that the academics have not been very flattering to the peasant castes. This might be because of their treatment of women, illiteracy, female infanticide, riots, and so on. These topics are of interest. Do you know that in the University of Toronto historians have studied Rajput Banditry in the British era and there are papers on it - but not a whisper on Wikipedia.LukeEmily (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @LukeEmily: I'm starting to think there's more to this than there first appears. Phrases like "Khatri are an advanced and literate caste unlike the Rajputs" are concerning. Are you trying to say that all Rajputs are currently unadvanced and illiterate? That's a rather broad statement that encompasses many groups of people. Shinjoya needs to ditch the "clusters of castes" dispute; it's clear consensus is that the Rajputs are a cluster of castes and constantly trying to overturn that consensus is going to be seen as disruptive. But other points are legitimate and don't seem to be clearly POV-pushing. The fifth diff you mentioned at [47] appears to be based on a request from an IP editor. He replied to that, said he agreed, waited a while for anyone else to comment, and then removed the section. Then you reverted and a discussion was had on the talk page. Shinjoya appeared to have a valid argument; they examined several reliable sources and only one source mentioned the Maratha was responsible for these riots. [48] In cases as hotly contested as caste-based riots asking for more than one reliable source is likely a good idea. And if this detail is so important that the Maratha was responsible, why don't more sources discuss it?
• For your fourth diff [49], I think it's debatable whether or not including that particular incident is
  WP:UNDUE
  . There have likely been thousands of inter-caste incidents in the Indian subcontinent's history. The sources that covered the incident were all news sources from the same few days in 2017 when the incident occured, except for the EPW source which is claimed to be from 2015 which is logically impossible given the event happened in 2017. I think there's a legitimate NOTNEWS argument to be made here.
• The sixth diff you've provided [50] about the claim that Bhonsles originated from the Kanbi and Marathas is also interesting. Shinjoya removed the sentence because "the source fails to give any conclusion about the original caste of clan". Reading the excerpt of the source provided, the source says that "the Bhonsles are thought to have originated among the large, amorphous populations of non-Muslim Deccani tiller-plainsmen who had come to be known by the names Kanbi and Maratha" (emphasis mine). The source then goes on to explain that they weren't "formally castelike in the modern sense". The sources doesn't seem to make a firm conclusion here that the Bhonsles originated from these specific castes, rather that the Bhonsles originated from the group of people that later turned into those castes. While Shinjoya should have rephrased, he raises an interesting point that was not addressed by the people that reverted him. It's also interesting that the mass reversion edit summaries state that Shinjoya should discuss their edits on the talk page prior to making them. [51] Shinjoya actually brought up the specific Bhonsle issue on the talk page after the reversion [52] but you didn't bother to address that, instead saying "I am very busy right now but will get more involved from next month."
• For your 7th issue, the quotation needed tag was validly placed. There was no quote from the source in question included in the reference. [53] You claim that quotations are available, so why not include one to address the issue? You also say Heba provided the quote that Shinjoya said was missing. [54] Actually looking at the diffs, Shinjoya was requesting a quote from the Jaffrelot source (the only one in the lede sentence at the time). The quote Heba provided is from a different source written by Stewart Gordon that wasn't inline at in the lede sentence at the time Shinjoya requested the quote. [55] Now, cutting out the lede is a stupid way to resolve this. But there is a valid point here; the Gordon source should have been referenced in the lede sentence. It's weird to call this POV-pushing and rather misleading to say that the quote was included.
• Also on the seventh issue, you appear to be misconstruing the point Shinjoya was making. Shinjoya wasn't saying that Gordon was unreliable nor did Shinjoya argue against the content of the book. Shinjoya was making the argument that a) the Gordon book is the only citation for the lede sentence's claims and the article gave it UNDUE weight and b) the Gordon source says that the Maratha is a "category of caste".[56] Note the quotation explicitly calls the Maratha a "category of caste". The source doesn't claim that the different groups of people have been amalgamated into a single caste known as the "Maratha". This looks like a legitimate content dispute, not POV-pushing. I would say that you might actually be the person doing original research here, given that you continued to claim that "Gordon is explaining that the Maratha caste is formed from an amalgamation of peasant castes that existed in Shivaji's time." when that doesn't actually appear to be supported by the source. I'll also note that Heba actually accused Shinjoya of vandalism during this discussion because Shinjoya didn't use the template "need quotation to verify", despite Shinjoya clearly using that template and waiting before making their change. [57]
• On the eight issue you didn't provide a diff, so I'll do so instead. Shinjoja added multiple images to the article [58], including a drawing of a single man with a spear from 1813 which at the time was named File:Maratha_Soldier.jpg. This seemed like an honest mistake on his part (which he fixed immediately once you brought it up that it might not have been a Marathi soldier; you also did an RM of that image on commons to it's current title) [59] and you are lying by saying "He added a photograph of Indian soldiers from the Indian army on the Maratha caste page." given that the Indian army didn't even exist (even as the British Indian army!) when the drawing was created. It makes a lot of sense why you didn't provide diffs for this one and while I was wavering on whether this t-ban should've been overturned now this alone convinces me that the original t-ban was bullshit. You should honestly be sanctioned for lying at AN.
• On the ninth issue I don't even understand what the issue is. Shinjoya is saying that the first time the word "Marathe" as a term of self-identification was used was in the thirteenth century. [60] This could be interpreted as implying that "Maratha" as a caste existed in the thirteenth century. Sure, whatever, that's a real stretch. It certainly isn't pov-pushing it's a possibly ambiguous edit that you could've easily clarified by adding something in the first part of the section that "Maratha" as a caste didn't emerge until whatever year. The other diff [61] I can't actually understand what your issue is.
• Your claims are weak and were actually falsified at one point. Shinjoya needs to stop trying to claim that the Rajput are a singular caste and their general editing leaves something to be desire. But a lot of the other editors here aren't angels either and none of the diffs you've presented actually show Shinjoya behaving disruptively. I think taking you at your word in the original ANI discussion was an error on the part of Rosguill given that you've just shown here that you're willing to fabricate events that never occurred. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 06:35, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chess, I will answer all points one by one. I am really surprised that you did not find him disruptive even though he has blanked out sections. Some of your analysis is incorrect - that is because you have not seen the history of the edits. I also request you to look at the edits once more to get a full picture rather than cherry picked talk page summaries that he pointed out. You have probably not seen the sequence of edits and I request you to directly look at the edit sequence as I feel his reply is misleading. Second, his accusations about Khatri are wrong. As far as advanced is concerned, I never said that all Rajputs are illiterate. I meant that in the post Independence classification by Karve and based on my reading there still existed a lot of Rajput groups with low literacy whereas Khatris were generally advanced. I could not care less if it was the opposite. I was simply stating what I had gathered from my reading. I guess I could have avoided saying that as it was unnecessary, and I apologize. The point is that him calling my Khatri edit "fabricated", although it was well sourced really got to me. And I have not fabricated anything. Can you at least be fair and allow me to respond point by point before giving your verdict and calling me a "liar"? This is really outrageous.LukeEmily (talk) 07:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

LukeEmily Discussing whether or not Khatri are superior to Rajputs in terms of "advancement" or literacy is out of scope here. The specific way you phrased it makes it sound like you were stereotyping Rajputs. I'm glad you said that that wasn't your intention, but you did generalize the Rajputs as a whole as not being literate and spoke negatively about them in your comment. That wasn't necessary to address the point Shinjoya was making and I'm glad you recognized that it wasn't. I think there was a lack of communication in the dispute up above. Looking at the diffs, it looks like in the first instance the language source was to a different volume and page of the work that you've referenced here and might not support the language issue (couldn't check it out). Looking into the second diff, the page number you provided appears to be the Google Books pagenumber. I was able to easily check it out, see [62] for anyone else, but at the same time I noticed "Khatris in Delhi" appears on Google Books page number 1724. [63] Looking further, it looks like right before those diffs you posted you said "Khatri, as far as I know is an educated/advanced caste unlike the Rajputs." [64] in a talk page discussion as a reply to Shinjoya using an example of some communities possibly putting the name "Rajput" after their name as a reason why other communities might put the word "Khatri" after their name. This could be easily interpreted as an insult as it implies that communities in India wouldn't want to be associated with the term "Rajput" as they're not "educated/advanced". I think there's a chance this might've pissed Shinjoya off, leading them to remove Marathi from the languages part of the infobox (maybe justified) thinking that you added it, along with the short sentence that you actually just added given that they're both cited to the same collection of books but differ in volume and page number. Then during the second removal he might've flipped to the wrong page, thought "this guy is obviously acting in bad faith" and did the revert. Probably why he's saying you fabricated that now. This wasn't an appropriate action on Shinjoya's part. He was wrong and should have gotten warned for that and I'd appreciate it if Shinjoya would acknowledge that they were wrong in that dispute and retract the claim of fabricating quotes (i.e. apologize). But at the same time would you be willing to acknowledge that the comment you made about Rajputs not being educated/advanced wasn't appropriate either? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 08:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chess, I already apologized for the "Khatri advanced and Rajput are not" comment in my previous edit. I know it is irrelevant here and I will remove it shortly. Chess, I believe you did the analysis in good faith but I strongly think it is incorrect and I will prove it with evidence. I feel you did not look at the complete picture of sequence or perhaps you need more details or perhaps because you do not have a background of the subject matter. As mentioned before, I will respond and and show you the obvious inaccuracies in your analysis but even before I do that I want to first address this outrageous comment from you.

Comment by chess: On the eight issue you didn't provide a diff, so I'll do so instead. Shinjoja added multiple images to the article [106], including a drawing of a single man with a spear from 1813 which at the time was named File:Maratha_Soldier.jpg. This seemed like an honest mistake on his part (which he fixed immediately once you brought it up that it might not have been a Marathi soldier; you also did an RM of that image on commons to it's current title) [107] and you are lying by saying "He added a photograph of Indian soldiers from the Indian army on the Maratha caste page." given that the Indian army didn't even exist (even as the British Indian army!) when the drawing was created. It makes a lot of sense why you didn't provide diffs for this one and while I was wavering on whether this t-ban should've been overturned now this alone convinces me that the original t-ban was bullshit. You should honestly be sanctioned for lying at AN.- [comment by Chess] Response by LE: Sigh. So WRONG. Chess,no, *YOU* are calling people names with incorrect evidence. The diff is [65] and not the one you assumed. I specifically said "Indian Soldiers* This is a 2018 parade of the Republic day of India showing Indian soldiers. It has nothing to do with the photo of the soldier that you are discussing. Please can you not jump to conclusions and not using words like bs on ANI and calling people names like liars based on false evidence?CC:Rosguill? This alone convinces me that Chess's analysis and conclusion is so wrong. Chess, you did not ask for clarification before calling me names and now I have just proven that you falsely called me a liar on ANI. I am sure you are aware that unlike Rajput empire where most of the warriors/rulers were Rajput, the Maratha empire had several castes participating on the battlefield and in administration . The Peshwas were of the Brahmin caste. Soon I will post a point by point response to your other good-faith but IMO incorrect conclusions. Will the Indian government name an army section based on a single caste or an empire? Is it possible none of those soldiers are Maratha? Yes, it is possible. Maybe they are all Brahmins. Maybe they are all Muslims or all Christians or (more likely) a mix of all people of all religions who want to serve their country. Why are they relevant to a caste? Best Wishes,LukeEmily (talk) 09:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to a different comment you left on another talk page a little while ago that could be interpreted as expressing anti-Rajput, not this discussion. I believe that diff was a key reason why that dispute blew up and that you should try to refrain from expressing your views on Rajput literacy or advancement in the future given the ease at which it can be misinterpreted and the diversity of that group. w/r/t Maratha soldiers I am very surprised that's the diff you were referring to. I didn't look far enough into the page history, clearly, nor did I consider edits that you did not appear to be involved in a dispute about. I apologize for that and have struck my eighth point. I still don't understand how the soldier photo was POV pushing or anything justifying a t-ban. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 10:06, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess:, Before I give a response to the others, please can you also redact ... were actually falsified at one point....I think taking you at your word in the original ANI discussion was an error on the part of Rosguill given that you've just shown here that you're willing to fabricate events that never occurred. as it was based on 8th unless you think there is another fabrication. I do not mind if you feel the claim is weak or even if you feel he is not disruptive. That is a subjective opinion. But I strongly object to the word "fabrication" or "falsified" as I have not falsified nor fabricated anything as explained earlier. I am also not anti-Rajput or anti any caste or anti any religious group. I am not interested in Indian politics either in my personal life. Rosguill clarified that he enforced the ban based on Shinjoya's behavior(I think) not based on my allegations. Chess, I feel you might have a change of heart once I explain more point by point and give some context and background.LukeEmily (talk) 14:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@LukeEmily: You said :But I strongly object to the word "fabrication" or "falsified" as I have not falsified nor fabricated anything as explained earlier.

You fabricated or falsified things while presenting diffs which you describe as "evidence" against me.

• You presented this and claimed that I removed content on Rajput alcoholism while I didn't.

• You presented this and claimed that I removed term "Shudra" while it was originally removed by Ratnahastin citing repitition of content. I just reverted a mass revert from Heba Aisha because her mass revert had undid my edits too.

• You presented this and claimed that I edit warred with an admin while I didn't.

• You presented this and claimed that the quotations were available while they were not available in citation.

All your allegations against me are blatant lies. They are based on falsehood and made in bad faith. Shinjoya (talk) 17:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Shinjoya:, 'Your responses are blatant lies and I will prove it with evidence. Let me respond one by one to the above. (BTW, I am still waiting for your apology to your Khatri lies on ANI. Even Chess asked you to admit it.).

Let me take them one by one.

Alcohol: Shinjoya says "You presented this and claimed that I removed content on Rajput alcoholism while I didn't"

LE RESPONSE:You *DID* remove a comment mentioning alcoholism by Harlan - not only the content but also the source with the quote - not once but twice!

Here in 2018: [66] Here your summary was: Undid revision 866500039 by MarkH1995 (talk) the said section isn't about any domestic abuse. The cited refs are based on commentaries made centuries ago and hence obsolete in context of diet. How can they be used to state that most Rajputs of today eat non-veg, smoke beetle leaves and consume alcohol?

The sources you removed and the quote was this "Many women do not like their husbands to drink much alcohol; they consider alcoholism a problem in their community particularly because Rajput drinking is sanctioned by tradition"^{[6][7][full citation needed]}

After this edit, you removal was reverted by an editor in 2018.

Again in 2021, you removed that University of California Press here:

[67]

Again you were reverted. The quote and source you removed was Many women do not like their husbands to drink much alcohol; they consider alcoholism a problem in their community particularly because Rajput drinking is sanctioned by tradition."^[8]"

Your removal was re-added again by Heba here [68]

Did you remove the quote and the source by Lindsey Harlon on alcoholism or not? After your edit, it was gone from wikipedia until it was re-added by others.

Shudra removalShinjoya says:"You presented this and claimed that I removed term "Shudra" while it was originally removed by Ratnahastin citing repitition of content. I just reverted a mass revert from Heba Aisha because her mass revert had undid my edits too."

LE:

WP:OWN

so I find your comment hypocritical.

Edits about cluster of castes :Shinjoya says: you claimed that I edit warred with an admin while I didn't

RESPONSE by LE: Your obsession across the years to remove "cluster of castes" despite being reverted and explained by admin is evidence enough. Even Chess pointed out to you. The diff/talk is on Rajput page. I dont want to repeat it.

Quote from Gordon: Shinjoya says:You presented this and claimed that the quotations were available while they were not available in citation.

LE RESPONSE: Has this not been explained many times already? You removed Gordon's text here :[69] . The quote is nothing to do with Jaffrelot but is Gordon's[70]. Moreover, the lede section and the Kunbi, Shepherd etc was well backed by the origin and Varna section. There does not need to be any citation in the lede although it was there as clear as day.

general comment': Shinjoya, I think you are getting caught in your own lies. The bottom line, as others have also noticed is that your behavior is disruptive because you *do* remove sourced content that you find negative.LukeEmily (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@LukeEmily: I would say your claims are highly misleading in most of those cases (especially your eighth point). Regardless I struck that "fabrication" out as I can't say you actually lied. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 04:02, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to LukeEmily's above comment directed at me: Your series of lies continue. Let me respond to your lies once more:

LE RESPONSE:You *DID* remove a comment mentioning alcoholism by Harlan - not only the content but also the source with the quote - not once but twice! Here in 2018: [71] Here your summary was: "Undid revision 866500039 by MarkH1995 (talk) the said section isn't about any domestic abuse. The cited refs are based on commentaries made centuries ago and hence obsolete in context of diet. How can they be used to state that most Rajputs of today eat non-veg, smoke beetle leaves and consume alcohol?

Again wrong. In your original post, you presented my 2021 edit. On being proven that you are lying, now you have come up with my 2018 edit. My edit was directed towards the Diet section. And if it contained content pertaining to alcoholism, then it was wrong on the part of person who added it in Diet section at first. Btw, why is Rajput alcoholism so dear to you? You pushing to keep it is itself a POV. How many other Indian caste articles have such sections?

Again in 2021, you removed that University of California Press here: [72] Again you were reverted. The quote and source you removed was Many women do not like their husbands to drink much alcohol; they consider alcoholism a problem in their community particularly because Rajput drinking is sanctioned by tradition."^[9]" Your removal was re-added again by Heba here [73] Did you remove the quote and the source by Lindsey Harlon on alcoholism or not? After your edit, it was gone from wikipedia until it was re-added by others.

This 2021 edit of mine was also directed towards Diet section only. It was reverted , then discussed in which you also somewhat agreed to my concern. Its a general practice to remove the attached citations when content is removed. Its not my duty to find an appropriate line where the citation can be fitted. Stop calling removal of citations as disruptive. Not all people in this world are jobless. Some things can better be left for other users who have more spare time.

Shudra removalShinjoya says:"You presented this and claimed that I removed term "Shudra" while it was originally removed by Ratnahastin citing repitition of content. I just reverted a mass revert from Heba Aisha because her mass revert had undid my edits too." LE:

so I find your comment hypocritical.

Already explained in my previous reply that

's mass revert was dubious to core. Her edit summary was flawed. Basic English says that when she was referring to multiple edits, she should have used the term "them" but she said that "we have a consensus on it". Had she used "them" instead of "it", I wouldn't have reverted her at all.

Edits about cluster of castes :Shinjoya says: you claimed that I edit warred with an admin while I didn't RESPONSE by LE: Your obsession across the years to remove "cluster of castes" despite being reverted and explained by admin is evidence enough. Even Chess pointed out to you. The diff/talk is on Rajput page. I dont want to repeat it.

Please stop this obsession with this cluster of caste issue. At present, my explanation is still lying on Talk: Rajput. If you really have any objection, why don't you explain your concern.

Quote from Gordon: Shinjoya says:You presented this and claimed that the quotations were available while they were not available in citation. LE RESPONSE: Has this not been explained many times already? You removed Gordon's text here :[74] . The quote is nothing to do with Jaffrelot but is Gordon's[75]. Moreover, the lede section and the Kunbi, Shepherd etc was well backed by the origin and Varna section. There does not need to be any citation in the lede although it was there as clear as day.

Another flawed defence to that dubious Gordon's definition. Only his book supported that claim but you were too adamant on keeping it in the very first lead line. As Chess has rightly noted, its nothing but

.

general comment: Shinjoya, I think you are getting caught in your own lies. The bottom line, as others have also noticed is that your behavior is disruptive because you *do* remove sourced content that you find negative.

Already proven who is the liar here. Shinjoya (talk) 15:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Shinjoya:, please can you not insert the response between replies?

Did you remove The Lindsay Harlon source and quote and her text about alcoholism in two edits?(yes/no question) My answer is yes. Is your answer no? We can discuss other issues you mentioned - like my obsession with alcohol, whether its diet or not later. Please can you respond to this single question with a yes/no answer? If your answer is yes, please retract your defamatory comment about me. If your answer is no, prove me wrong, and I will accept that I am a liar and impose a 3 month self ban. Sounds fair? I am busy and do not want to spend more time here if you continue to be in denial. I am mostly done here. Best,LukeEmily (talk) 17:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Chess:, I think you mean my diffs and details were not correctly presented? But the main claims by themselves are not misleading. Please see the point about alcohol as an example (just before your last comment). In point 8 I did not provide the diff. As LaundryPizza003 notes about Shinjoya's edits : ...but the evidence presented by LukeEmily shows a pattern of disruptive removal of sourced content and dismissing sources as "hoaxes" (although some diffs and threads weren't linked).. He sums it up perfectly. This is exactly my concern :'"pattern of disruptive removal of sourced content and dismissing sources as "hoaxes"'. Yes, I accept that the diffs and threads were not linked properly and that resulted in your misunderstanding of point 8. Anyways, I have yet to reply to your other points. Please wait for a few hours. Are the points made by NitinMLK misleading too? BTW, are you aware of the general Vandalism and attacks that editors such as Heba and others are facing due to her edits. She has been persistently attacked by Rajput caste people as well as Kayastha caste people(some person named Srivatasav or something like that) because she put the word Shudra on their respective pages. You can check her talk page history and her user page history. Also, are you aware of a facebook groups created for Rajputs to discuss these edits on wikipedia and their comments about how they taught Heba a lesson?Googletranslate will translate them from hindi to english?LukeEmily (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Off wiki coordination to whitewash Rajput caste related articles: As LE pointed out, i m bringing this issue here. There has been numerous attempt by Rajput caste people to glorify the community on wikipedia by forming facebook and twitter handles and groups in past. One such example is this [76], where they are explicitly pointing out the name of mine along with these editors. On my talk page, you will find complaint from various caste people like

talk) 09:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@Chess:

Chess:The fifth diff you mentioned at [95] appears to be based on a request from an IP editor. He replied to that, said he agreed, waited a while for anyone else to comment, and then removed the section. Then you reverted and a discussion was had on the talk page. Shinjoya appeared to have a valid argument; they examined several reliable sources and only one source mentioned the Maratha was responsible for these riots. [96] In cases as hotly contested as caste-based riots asking for more than one reliable source is likely a good idea. And if this detail is so important that the Maratha was responsible, why don't more sources discuss it?

RESPONSE (LE): It is not a valid agreement because there were *multiple existing* sources that were present that mentioned the caste by name. Second, there is no rule that multiple sources are needed for a controversial topic. He called those sources a hoax because he could not find quotes although he admitted that one source where the previous editors had given quotes was valid. Using this logic, I can delete 90% edits on wikipedia. To prevent

citations for every controversial topic, will it work? What if the Bengali Baidyas say that this is only one source and hence Shudra is undue? In addition, none of the sources contradicted Marovitz i.e. none of them said they were NOT maratha. Many (if not most) books on Shivaji will not mention the word Shudra for political or practical reasons. Perhaps their focus is on some issues unrelated to caste - like his political acumen- as an example. That does not mean Shudra cannot be added. Having said that, please allow me to reiterate that multiple existing sources at the time of his deletion did mention Maratha. I added an extra source because it mentioned that Brahmins were also targets of attacks in the same riots(not just Marwaris).

Chess:For your fourth diff [97], I think it's debatable whether or not including that particular incident is WP:UNDUE . There have likely been thousands of inter-caste incidents in the Indian subcontinent's history. The sources that covered the incident were all news sources from the same few days in 2017 when the incident occured, except for the EPW source which is claimed to be from 2015 which is logically impossible given the event happened in 2017. I think there's a legitimate NOTNEWS argument to be made here.

RESPONSE (LE): I am not too familiar with such politics and such news but it did look sourced and it is also cited in Economic and Political weekly. I think that 2015 is a typo. But I do not know much about this except that it did look sourced from multiple sources. There is a procedure to argue removal. I cannot put some comment on the talk page one day and remove a ton of sourced content the next day if no one replies in 24 hrs. Yes, it can be argued it is news and could be removed by using an RFC.

Chess:The sixth diff you've provided [98] about the claim that Bhonsles originated from the Kanbi and Marathas is also interesting. Shinjoya removed the sentence because "the source fails to give any conclusion about the original caste of clan". Reading the excerpt of the source provided, the source says that "the Bhonsles are thought to have originated among the large, amorphous populations of non-Muslim Deccani tiller-plainsmen who had come to be known by the names Kanbi and Maratha" (emphasis mine). The source then goes on to explain that they weren't "formally castelike in the modern sense". The sources doesn't seem to make a firm conclusion here that the Bhonsles originated from these specific castes, rather that the Bhonsles originated from the group of people that later turned into those castes. While Shinjoya should have rephrased, he raises an interesting point that was not addressed by the people that reverted him. It's also interesting that the mass reversion edit summaries state that Shinjoya should discuss their edits on the talk page prior to making them. [99] Shinjoya actually brought up the specific Bhonsle issue on the talk page after the reversion [100] but you didn't bother to address that, instead saying "I am very busy right now but will get more involved from next month."

RESPONSE( LE): I have no issue with rephrasing something as long as it does not misrepresent source. Interestingly, all such issues come up only for contents that are not flattering. I think the deletion of such a high quality source like Susan Bayly is unwarranted as admin Utcursh has also pointed out on another page.

Chess:For your 7th issue, the quotation needed tag was validly placed. There was no quote from the source in question included in the reference. [101] You claim that quotations are available, so why not include one to address the issue? You also say Heba provided the quote that Shinjoya said was missing. [102] Actually looking at the diffs, Shinjoya was requesting a quote from the Jaffrelot source (the only one in the lede sentence at the time). The quote Heba provided is from a different source written by Stewart Gordon that wasn't inline at in the lede sentence at the time Shinjoya requested the quote. [103] Now, cutting out the lede is a stupid way to resolve this. But there is a valid point here; the Gordon source should have been referenced in the lede sentence. It's weird to call this POV-pushing and rather misleading to say that the quote was included.

RESPONSE: I think you are misunderstanding the quote and context. First, the quotation was *already* on the main page in the lede itself when he deleted the sentence. Heba just copied it from there to the talk page unless I am mistaken. But the quote existed on the ppage and still exists. In fact, it existed even after he deleted the text. I am willing to call this an honest mistake on his part but it is not isolated. The pattern is obvious. The Jaffrelot source is irrelevant there. Not sure why it was there in the first place. But the quote that was removed was present in Gordon's source, irrespective of whether Jaffrelot had the quote or not.

Chess:Also on the seventh issue, you appear to be misconstruing the point Shinjoya was making. Shinjoya wasn't saying that Gordon was unreliable nor did Shinjoya argue against the content of the book. Shinjoya was making the argument that a) the Gordon book is the only citation for the lede sentence's claims and the article gave it UNDUE weight and b) the Gordon source says that the Maratha is a "category of caste".[104] Note the quotation explicitly calls the Maratha a "category of caste". The source doesn't claim that the different groups of people have been amalgamated into a single caste known as the "Maratha". This looks like a legitimate content dispute, not POV-pushing. I would say that you might actually be the person doing original research here, given that you continued to claim that "Gordon is explaining that the Maratha caste is formed from an amalgamation of peasant castes that existed in Shivaji's time." when that doesn't actually appear to be supported by the source. I'll also note that Heba actually accused Shinjoya of vandalism during this discussion because Shinjoya didn't use the template "need quotation to verify", despite Shinjoya clearly using that template and waiting before making their change. [105]

RESPONSE(LE): I agree that Vandalism is not the right word to use. But I feel she used it based on the other pattern of edits she observed by Shinjoya. Actually the text, it is supported not only by Gordon but also multiple sources. Please see the quotes from sources in 1)Lede section 2)origin section of Maratha and the 3)Varna section and you will see the quotes by multiple scholars and academics as well as Govt of India, Maratha organizations, the Supreme court etc. The Lede section was only reflecting those words. Hypothetically, even if the Gordon source was unavailable, the lede would still be correct based on the other sources(maybe one or two names of castes could be deleted). Also, when Gordon says "category of caste", he is referring to the second category in which the way Maratha is used (caste sense). The first category is simply people of Maharashtra. Here he says that he is discussing the caste and its formation. Maratha is also used by older historians to denote all Maharashtrians. What Gordon is saying is that these castes Kunbi, dhangar etc. had families who participated in battle and after change in dress and customs and employing genealogists amalgamated into the Maratha caste. He explains this over two pages. This is quite well known by academics (even if we did not have Gordon). There are many other sources that say the same and it is not at all fringe a fringe opinion.

Chess:On the eight issue you didn't provide a diff, so I'll do so instead. Shinjoja added multiple images to the article [106], including a drawing of a single man with a spear from 1813 which at the time was named File:Maratha_Soldier.jpg. This seemed like an honest mistake on his part (which he fixed immediately once you brought it up that it might not have been a Marathi soldier; you also did an RM of that image on commons to it's current title) [107] and you are lying by saying "He added a photograph of Indian soldiers from the Indian army on the Maratha caste page." given that the Indian army didn't even exist (even as the British Indian army!) when the drawing was created. It makes a lot of sense why you didn't provide diffs for this one and while I was wavering on whether this t-ban should've been overturned now this alone convinces me that the original t-ban was bullshit. You should honestly be sanctioned for lying at AN.

RESPONSE: You already apologized for this comment and retracted it as your assumption about the diff was incorrect so I will not provide a response here.

Chess:On the ninth issue I don't even understand what the issue is. Shinjoya is saying that the first time the word "Marathe" as a term of self-identification was used was in the thirteenth century. [108] This could be interpreted as implying that "Maratha" as a caste existed in the thirteenth century. Sure, whatever, that's a real stretch. It certainly isn't pov-pushing it's a possibly ambiguous edit that you could've easily clarified by adding something in the first part of the section that "Maratha" as a caste didn't emerge until whatever year. The other diff [109] I can't actually understand what your issue is.

RESPONSE: He is misrepresenting the source by giving partial quote since the source goes on to explicitly say that Marathe is not used in the "caste" sense here. The issue is the same with Sen, Sen also clarifies he is not using the word Maratha in a caste sense. After Shinjoya's edit, any reader will get the impression that the rulers at that time were from the Maratha caste, even though the source is making it clear that the inscription has nothing to do with caste. This is a clear misrepresentation of sources to promote a caste.

RESPONSE: In general, I do believe that there is a pattern of removing negative content. I have no objection if he adds positive content to balance anything he feels is negative but it needs to be

should not be achieved by wiping out negative sections that have good academic citations. If his intentions were in good faith, why is it that so much negative content was removed? Why was not a large amount of positive content removed? About pictures, would it be right to show a picture of British soldiers in 2021 to represent catholics in the UK? I have no objection with adding large amount of positive content on any page as long as it is sourced by a

Recreation of article on Rajputs: Concerned people, add your content and mobilise support to de- vandalise articles such as Rajput, Rajputisation, Kshatriyas and Yadav. -User:Aishtomar.

It is interesting that he did not ping anyone. That would happen if there was some communication through the backdoor and he knew they were reading his page. This is clear proof of some collaboration. You will also notice that so called new editors are coming up to edit Rajput pages but they seem to be well versed with most rules of wiki. How to file complains, SPI etc. It makes me wonder if they are really new. Heba and I often disagree. I have no communication with her or any other editor outside wikipedia. And I do not have a private email on wiki, so all my communication is public. And I don't even know her real name. Plus we disagree on some topics. For example, we had some disagreements on the Bhumihar page etc. and I have also disagreed with her and sided with Sanjaypal and Rajput editors about removing the fishermen image from the Rajput pages. Please see my latest edits on the Rajput talk page. I think Heba's prediction is correct. We are going to see a large number of "new" editors on Rajput related pages. You are free to keep your opinion of the evidence being weak. But as editors who frequently interact with these editors, the pattern is very clear and the edits shown by NitinMLK convince me further. Best, LukeEmily (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you should consider seeking compromise in the future. A lot of these issues could have probably be addressed better before they got to the point of an ANI thread. In your first point, you could've probably have just written in "according to Marovitz" or included multiple citations that specifically mentioned that caste as responsible for the riots. And also,

WP:BOLD edit doesn't have any justification. Or the edit is about a topic already discussed or very, very controversial. I don't think being bold and removing a section while calling it undue is problematic editing. We don't need an RfC for every issue. A lot of other issues could have been addressed via compromise. The ninth issue comes to mind. Why not just add in a sentence clarifying that the word "Maratha" was not being used in a caste sense? e.g. "the first time the word "Maratha" was used as a self-identification (albeit not in a caste sense) was in..." Shinjoya shouldn't be removing things wholesale but that applies to everyone. Likewise with the seventh issue. Just move the citation upwards so it supports the sentence instead of spending your time arguing about "it's already in the lede!" A citation can be used more than one time in a single article. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 00:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Strongly Oppose lifting the ban. Shinjoya has been very disruptive as he has been instrumental in removing sourced content that he found negative. Most editors do not have issues when people add sourced content from
  Maratha page as well.LukeEmily (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Not again. If users like LukeEmily, Heba Aisha, Chariotrider555 are allowed to vote here, then this discussion is meaningless. They have significant content disputes with me and as I pointed earlier, they would want me banned at any cost. @Admins, please remove the vote of User:LukeEmily from this thread. And in case you decide against removing his vote, then please allow me to present some evidence against User: LukeEmily and User:Heba Aisha so that I can prove their POV editing. Shinjoya (talk) 05:32, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you need to introspect as to why so many editors in addition to the ones you mentioned have content disputes with you. The reason is because you are trying to sanitize the Rajput caste articles (as well as Maratha caste articles) by finding some flimsy excuse to remove high quality academic content that portrays the caste negatively.LukeEmily (talk) 05:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have told this a 100 times, that I don't remove any content without providing a valid edit summary. Whenever you people objected, I explained my edits thoroughly on talk page. Read

WP:Wikipedia is not a democracy. Just because you people are 3 and I am single, it doesn't essentially mean that you are right and I am wrong. Shinjoya (talk) 05:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It also does not mean that

you are right and they are wrong. --WaltCip-(talk) 15:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Strongly oppose lifting the ban. "They found it convenient to get me banned along with User:Ratnahastin". Oh really? You were not T-banned by Heba Aisha, Luke Emily, etc, but by the strength of their arguments. As for time-limited T-bans, I'm almost always against them, and am glad Rosguill placed indefinite bans. The reason for that is that users learn nothing from going away and waiting out a limited ban and then returning to their usual tendentious editing; whereas they may indeed learn something from having to edit constructively in other areas and then making a proper appeal, having demonstrated that they're capable of editing neutrally. The appeal above is not proper or convincing, but a mere attempt to throw shade at others. I suggest you try again in six months, Shinjoya. And please don't forget to edit other areas (and/or
  other Wikimedia projects) in the meantime. You'll hardly be unbanned without that. Bishonen | tålk 06:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC).[reply
  ]

But as Chess has pointed out, not a single evidence has been produced against me till now. Wasn't I banned just because some users demanded so? Shinjoya (talk) 06:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly Oppose, me and other editors didn't even filed any complaint at
  talk) 08:19, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

As I said in my appeal, Heba Aisha has content dispute with me on multiple articles. She appears here again with the same lame accusations. No edit diff has been provided against me whatsoever by any user. @Admins, I request you to not count her vote. Shinjoya (talk) 09:12, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Arguably, there wasn't a consensus to impose the ban in the first place against this user. The section was about another user, over half those voting named only that editor in their vote, and no evidence was presented against this editor. But to overturn the ban you'd need to get an affirmative consensus saying the initial close was incorrect, and I'm not sure you'll get that. Still, it should've happened as a DS action, and Chess' argument above is most persuasive. I'm not sure if the editor is productive in the topic area, but surely it's for the proponents to evidence that (or convince an admin of such). This just seems like railroading. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ProcrastinatingReader , please see my reply to Chess . Thanks LukeEmily (talk) 11:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose unban I suggest sticking with the topic ban. I took a look at the editor's contributions and they are focused solely on caste, except for many edits that add wikilinks (which are a clear sign of attempting to get to extended confirmed). Shinjoya, you should follow Bishonen's suggestion above, edit meaningfully for six months in other areas to demonstrate that you're not a one agenda editor, and then request an unban. --RegentsPark (comment) 12:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• In support of lifting the ban from Shinjoya, he is a fairly new user and should be left with a warning and be allowed to improve his style. His work has been mostly to remove the unnecessary negative remarks written on certain Indian castes by a group of people who are probably in contact with each other on a platform other than wiki. Please don't let them bully a user like this. Ranadhira (talk) 06:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak oppose Shinjoya should not have been tbanned without evidence, especially in an ANI not concerning them, but the evidence presented by LukeEmily shows a pattern of disruptive removal of sourced content and dismissing sources as "hoaxes" (although some diffs and threads weren't linked). If anything, the hostility toward Shinjoya (esp. by LukeEmily) might be a problem in its own right. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly Support lifting of the topic ban from the innocent editor, as the original poster of that ani report i will clarify that proposal was about me and only me other editors have unnecessarily dragged Shinjoya into it without a bit of evidence (is commenting oppose against the flow a sin?) there was not single bit of evidence or diff presented about Shinjoya, other than bunch of bad faith
  battlefield mentality, which is evident from the aspersions heba and luke have made above, and the edit summaries of luke :here
  where they termed Shinjoya rebuttal of their points as "Conspiracy theories"
• Here Special:Diff/1030125151 they said requesting ban for Shinjoya although they didn't requested anything.
• here they replied to Chess but with edit summary request to keep ban on Shinjoya for disruptive sourced content removal they didn't requested anything so this is again a misleading and blantant hostile edit summary.
• here in this small edit they said Support permanent ban on Shinjoya which again a misleading summary.

• These edit summaries are not only misleading but also extremely hostile, and also shows obsession of LukeEmily against Shinjoya to get him banned any how with mostly falsified out of context and misrepresented diffs as evaluated by Chess against the editors they dont agree on about content, its clear that they think wikipedia is a
  WP: BATTLEGROUND, admins who are telling Shinjoya to wait 6month before Appealing should first go through the entire ANI thread and note that admin judgements are not final why should someone serve the punishment for some disruptive comments in proposal which was never about them?  i request the banning admin to humbly lift the ban from Shinjoya, as the proposal was never about them and there was no consensus for his ban nor there was any diffs or evidence for it like I humbly accepted my Topic ban on the ANI. RatnaHastin^talk 10:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Comment – I was pinged in one of the above comments, and I haven't read anything here other than that comment. Also, leaving behind a few recent discussions with Shinjoya at Talk:Rajput (see [79], [80], & [81]) and at Talk:Saina Nehwal, I am unfamiliar with their editing history. Having said that, while checking Ratnahastin's edits during the relevant ANI discussion, I noticed some poor edits of Shinjoya at a page, as both of them were editing that in tandem (see [82]). I also noticed their odd edits on a couple of my watchlisted articles a few days ago. So I will mention those edits as well. But leaving behind these few articles, I am unfamiliar with their edits in general. If they will explain the following edits properly, then I probably won't look at their general editing pattern.

So here are a few of your edits at List of Rajputs that I noticed while checking user Ratnahastin's edits:

a) [83]: Why did you cite a

UGC (which is some NGO's site

) for the caste claim of a 19th-century personality?

b) [84]: This is a mirror of an unsourced version of Wikipedia and it clearly attributes the content to Wikipedia: [85]. Its publisher states that they copy from Wikipedia: "And we go even further: with the Wikipedia-texts at free disposal we create books on interesting topics."[86]

c) You already know that caste requires self-identification in BLPs. But that seems to be missing in your following edits: [87], [88], & [89].

d) Here you again cited an unreliable UGC – its author (Lekshmi Priya S.) "specializes in cracking terribly sad jokes".[90]

e) Here you cited another unreliable UGC.

f) Here you again cited a UGC.

g) Here the cited source doesn't mention that the subject was a Rajput.

Here are a couple of edits that appeared on my watchlist recently:

h) Some days back, I noticed your this edit at one of my watchlisted articles. You removed an academic source (of Oxford University Press) which is compiled by a team of "historical linguists, medieval historians, lexicographers,"[91] among others and edited by the likes of

WP:RSN

?

i) This is your another edit that appeared on my watchlist some days ago. Here you replaced a scholarly source published by Penn State University Press and authored by the political scientist Martha Crenshaw (who has extensively researched on terrorism) with non-scholarly content from Indian media. Why did you do that? - NitinMlk (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@NitinMlk: You are trying to do what you did with Ratnahastin in that previous ANI. You come with some nitpicking reports and exaggerate them to leave an impression in front of people that the user is involved in some massive disruptive behaviour. I would still like to clarify to your observations:

a) [92]: Why did you cite a

UGC (which is some NGO's site

) for the caste claim of a 19th-century personality?

In this edit, I just copy pasted the content from "Historical figures" section of the same article to "freedom fighters" section. I am not the original person who added this source. The content was present in the article for years. So, I didn't find any necesssity to cross-check the source.

(previous comment by Shinjoya)

No, Shinjoya, he is simply pointing out the issues with your edits. Can you please stop the ad hominem attacks and focus on the content? Where is the exaggeration? You had been warned in 2019 about BLP violations here by Fylindfotberserk. I am changing my vote from oppose to strongly oppose.LukeEmily (talk) 03:02, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

:b) [93]: This is a mirror of an unsourced version of Wikipedia and it clearly attributes the content to Wikipedia: [94]. Its publisher states that they copy from Wikipedia: "And we go even further: with the Wikipedia-texts at free disposal we create books on interesting topics."[95]

I wasn't aware that the publisher has written this on its website. If you had found this, you should have removed the content and conveyed it to me. But rather, you have come here and presented it in the form of a complaint.

c) You already know that caste requires self-identification in BLPs. But that seems to be missing in your following edits: [96], [97], & [98].

As far as I know, the policy of asking self-identification source to state caste applies to Indian castes and doesn't extend to Pakistani castes. Pakistani people consider Rajput as a Pakistani caste rather than Indian. If that wasn't the case, why didn't anyone remove the name of

Jat people

so many times but never removed her name.

d) Here you again cited an unreliable UGC – its author (Lekshmi Priya S.) "specializes in cracking terribly sad jokes".[99]

I wasn't aware of any reliability issues of this source. I still don't get what this "UGC" mean? I don't always have this much spare time that I do a thorough research about sources and their writers. Better idea on your part was to convey the user so that he avoids using it in future.

e) Here you cited another unreliable UGC.

When did India TV, a known Indian news channel become unreliable? If you think its unreliable, it would be a better idea to raise this matter to the relavant noticeboard, get it blacklisted and then complain about its authenticity.

f) Here you again cited a UGC.

I am not aware of reliability issue of this site, better idea was to convey your concern to user.

:g) Here the cited source doesn't mention that the subject was a Rajput.

The source reads that Chandrashekhar Singh was introduced to pacify the Rajput lobby of Bihar. Even a little knowledge of Indian politics suggest that the source implies that Chandrashekhar Singh was a Rajput, thats why he was introduced to please the group. But I can agree with you that the source doesn't say it directly. So, we can find a better source instead.

:h) Some days back, I noticed your this edit at one of my watchlisted articles. You removed an academic source (of Oxford University Press) which is compiled by a team of "historical linguists, medieval historians, lexicographers,"[100] among others and edited by the likes of

?

Though it comes from Oxford University Press, the source is a dictionary of American surnames. How can it be used for a predominantly Indian surname? Atleast, in context of

Jat

clan too while there were many sources which identifies it as a Rajput clan. As far as 2019 edit is concerned, I don't even remember that I did a similar edit back then. The article's history is full of IP vandalism. Its a very tiresome thing to check who removed or added it in past years.

:i) This is your another edit that appeared on my watchlist some days ago. Here you replaced a scholarly source published by Penn State University Press and authored by the political scientist Martha Crenshaw (who has extensively researched on terrorism) with non-scholarly content from Indian media.

Quotations were not available for the Gbook source you are referring to. I suspected that a user named Sapedder was trying to misquote the source. The book was titled "Terrorism in context". So, I replaced that with other sources which discussed the terrorism activities of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and also had no issue like non-availability of quotations. I already explained this in my edit summary. Shinjoya (talk) 02:39, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other than casting aspersions on me and giving excuses, you haven't explained your edits. And if that large-scale disruption by Ratnahastin in the seems like "nitpicking reports" to you, then you need to revisit WP policies. You have misrepresented my edits at that ANI, along with casting aspersions on me. But I didn't mention them here as I assumed good faith. But you are again doing the same thing here. Now coming to your responses,

• Regarding point a, you stated that you "just copy pasted" the
  WP:UGC
  from another article. But it is your responsibility to check the authenticity of the content you are adding to an article.
• Regarding b, you are said that "I wasn't aware that the publisher has written this on its website". Again, it's your responsibility to check the reliability of sources. And I didn't mention it on your talk page because your behaviour is being discussed here.
• Regarding c, you are saying that "Pakistani people consider Rajput as a Pakistani caste rather than Indian." We are not bothered about what Indians or Pakistanis think. We have a consensus on this project that Caste needs self-identification in
  BLPs
  : there is no mention of nationality-related restrictions. BTW, two of the three BLP violations pointed out by me are of Indian nationals.
• Regarding d, you mentioned that you "don't always have this much spare time that I do a thorough research about sources". If that's the case, then you should not add content in the main space because
  WP:UGC
  in the point a) itself.
• Regarding e, I guess you didn't properly check the diff provided by me, as it wasn't about the India TV. You added this
  WP:UGC in that edit. The author of that UGC is a common person who is preparing for the CDS exam – see here
  .
• Regarding f, if you are citing random internet sites/blogs for caste-related matters, you need to be very well aware of their reliability. BTW, the easiest way to know about editorial oversight of these random sites/blogs is to check their "about us" link, which is normally at the bottom of these web pages. In the present case, their About Us page shows they are merely sports enthusiasts, rather than professional journalists or sports experts. So that site is not reliable for even sports-related details, let alone something as contentious as caste.
• Regarding g, to find out what "the source implies" is known as
  WP:OR on this project. And we are supposed to write in our words what the source is stating "directly". But your response here is better than what you stated at Talk:Saina Nehwal
  .
• Regarding h, both the Dictionary of American Family Names & The Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland mention the same details about the Minhas surname. And both of them are compiled by the teams of subject experts. Obviously, they contain only those Indian surnames which are found in the respective countries. And they are extensively cited at the Indian/Pakistani surname pages, just like they are cited for the surnames of various other nationalities. It is irrelevant what your google search found, as the concern here is the reliability of these sources. So, before blanking it again, you should raise your concern at
  WP:RSN
  .
• Regarding i, blanking a scholarly source just because you don't have access to it is as absurd as your edit summary: "poor source (no quote available)". If the quotation is not available then you should ask for it on the articles talk page or at
  WP:REREQ. You can also tag the citation with Template:Request quotation
  .

All in all, you have provided just lame excuses for such problematic edits, rather than accepting your mistakes.

PS: You were more or less only editing caste-related articles when you started editing this project and you were editing List of Rajputs in the last week of May 2019: [101]. After that list got extended protected on 9 June 2019, you made hundreds of copyedits to a few non-caste articles between 10 June 2019 and 22 June 2019, in which you mainly added piped links, which in turn made you extended confirmed user: [102]. Shortly after that you took a wiki break and you are mostly editing caste-related articles since you resumed editing. What I want to say is that caste-related articles (esp. Rajput-related articles) are more or less your sole focus here. But they also happen to be one of the most contentious areas of this project. So it would be better to get experience by editing other areas for some months. Otherwise, there is a good chance of you getting topic-banned under discretionary sanctions at this point in time. This is just my personal advice and I won't be !voting here. In fact, unless I get misrepresented in this thread or someone asks for my response, I probably won't comment in this thread either. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 01:49, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose any lifting of a ban since this is a topic area that needs a very tight lid on disruption, and this thread nearly making my face go Raiders of the Lost Ark is evidence of a very serious problem. Anything to keep out useless noise in these articles is most welcome.
  WP:BUTT applies. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:01, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• I am not an administrator, so I am not sure I'm even allowed to post here, let alone vote (and I won't boldface). I have just counted 18,482 words in the back and forth above. They constitute twice the length of the longest featured articles on Wikipedia. They point to the obsession caste has become in India-related topics. Shinjoya seems to be a Single Purpose Account; he edits nothing but Caste articles. His defense above is proof positive of that. I agree with Bishonen, RegentsPark, NitinMlk, and The Blade of the Northern Lights that user:Rosguill's decision at ANI is the correct one, and there is no reason to overturn it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:43, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.