Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> |
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> |
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====Statement by TheLastOfTheGiants==== |
====Statement by TheLastOfTheGiants==== |
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: tgeorgescu is a pathological liar and a cheat, only reporting me because he knows he has more experience on Wikipedia and will likely get me banned as the admins will take a "better safe than sorry" attitude. Since there are 2 strong precedents of people being banned out of "better safe than sorry" reasons. |
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:What are your arguments for this "clear pushing of a nationalistic POV" ? nor have I ever attempted the exclusion of all other POVs. You did not address any of my points, seems like an ad hominem without any substance. |
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: Let's look at how true his accusations are - "It is clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POV" - can he provide any diffs where I did that? no, he cannot. Because I have never pushed a Romanian nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POV. In fact, here are some cases that prove the opposite [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_Transylvania#Roman_coins_as_so-called_%22proofs%22_for_Daco-Roman_theory]]. All of this that never happened is very "clear" to him mind you. |
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⚫ | :To give context: It is a subject of dispute whether elements of the mixed Daco–Roman population survived in Transylvania through the post-classical era becoming the ancestors of modern Romanians, the Daco-Roman Continuity Theory mainly accepted in Romanian histography, or the first Vlachs/Romanians appeared in the area in the 13th century after a northward migration from the Balkan Peninsula, the Immigrationist theory mainly accepted in Hungarian histography. There is an ongoing scholarly debate over the ethnicity of Transylvania's population before the Hungarian conquest. |
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: A fost his 2nd accusation - "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get lost" - I have never said such a thing, not sure where the "according to them" is from. In fact, I have never talked to tgeorgescu before. It's essentially dishonest, an outright lie. I'm not sure where he has that much "information" given that we never talked. If anything, it's only a projection of tgeorgescu's personal prejudice at best or intellectual dishonesty at worst, trying to make me look bad by putting words into my mouth and claiming I said something I never said. I don't mind being criticized about things I said and done, but I cannot stand people pulling stuff out of their butts. This only goes to show hit rotten character and lack of morals. |
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:The page Origin of the Romanians addresses this debate. In this page, I added 2 new paragraphs in the Daco-Roman Continuity section. User Borsoka regarded some of the statements from this paragraph as dubious. Reading more from the page, I found some elements of the Immigrationist theory section that do not comply with NPOV, at least when compared to the Daco-Roman Continuity section. |
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:All his intellectual speeches on this profile page are just for show, he doesn't practice what he preach in the slightest but instand acts like a fanatic, full of prejudices, jumping to conclusions and with 0 doubts. If anything, his definitory traits are his grumpiness, big ego and lack of scruples. Please, try to find a good faith explaination for his lie that "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get lost", he knows I never said that thing and can't even be dismissed as an accidental lie. He literally said on this page "I do not know a lot about the history of Romania and I do not pretend to know a lot about it" but at the same time acts like an expect. He is a man of many contradictions between what he is saying and what he is doing. |
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:For example: |
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:In the Daco-Roman Continuity part, sentences are written as a personal POV, such as - "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop concludes that the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people across the Lower Danube in a short period was impossible, especially because the commoners were unwilling to "move to foreign places, where they had nothing of their own and where the lands were already occupied". The wording makes it clear that it's "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop" who believes that and not a general consensus (given that this is a debate, clearly there is no consensus to begin with). Naturally, supporters of the Immigrationist theory would disagree with this. Thus the sentence is not worded as an absolute fact. |
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:In the Daco-Roman Continuity part, sentences are written as an absolute fact rahter than a personal POV. For example: "Immigrationist scholars emphasize that all other Romance languages developed in regions which had been under Roman rule for more than 500 years and nothing suggests that Romanian was an exception". This does not say "Historian Schramm believes that...." as its the case above with Ioan-Aurel Pop. It is worded as an absolute fact. However, just like many supporters of the Immigrationist theory would disagree with Ioan-Aurel Pop's assertion, many supporters of the Continuit theory disagree with Schramm's assertion that nothing suggests that Romanian was an exception. It is not the academic consensus. However, the wording makes it seem like it is the academic consensus violating NPOV. |
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:Or for example: "Reliable sources refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube for the first time in the 1160s". Again, this is not the general consensus, many supporters of the Continuit theory disagree. Yet this is not written as a subjective POV. The list can go on but hopefully you understood the idea. |
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:So I listed these as dubious/NPOV in order to discuss it with Borsoka on the talk page. And tgeorgescu was aware of this as I said "The tags have purpose, please see the talk page" in my last edit. |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians#Addressing_the_dubious |
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[[User:TheLastOfTheGiants|TheLastOfTheGiants]] ([[User talk:TheLastOfTheGiants|talk]]) 08:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Note to admins (I read the 2 previous cases, this is going to be a long comment, but also my last one on this report unless an admin specifically asks for more details) - I have looked at the "strong precendents" of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Cealicuca and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Iovaniorgovan, in both of these cases, the admin's argument seems to be that they lack the expertise to determine whether it's a good-faith content dispute or nationalist POV pushing and were only banned based on [[WP:SPA]]. I think this is a loophole that Tgeorgescu can easily abuse, by taking advantage of the "better safe than sorry" attitude. |
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:::Reading Iovaniorgovan's statements, he does not appear to have any nationalist POV, Ioan-Aurel Pop is indeed the mainstream Daco-Roman Continuity theory viewpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan-Aurel_Pop - he is the elected President of the Romanian Academy, clearly not a fringe conspiracy theory. |
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:::Ironically, tgeorgescu actually wrote "Sandstein wrote I lack the topic-area knowledge to be able to determine whether this is merely a good-faith content dispute or nationalist POV pushing. However, I can look at Iovaniorgovan's contributions and determine that they are indeed a WP:SPA. Single-purpose accounts are almost always a bad sign, particularly in hotly contested topic areas. On that basis alone, I would topic-ban Iovaniorgovan from Origin of the Romanians until they have a track record of at least six months productive editing in some unrelated topic area. Since Cealicuca is a WP:SPA same applies to him." in this 2nd report. I suppose this time is trying to do the same thing for the 3rd time. This explains this instant report without any reaching out to me first. He knows it works and is counting on it. |
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:::Reading Cealicuca's statements, I don't know what the issue of the report was, since it's hardly talked about in the report. But Cealicuca makes some good points that were not taken into account - "My account is 6-7 months old. I wonder how many editors start basically on an article, only to later "expand" to other articles", "For example this is Borsoka's activity, with a majority of edits on the same article and an overwhelming majority of edits on the talk page. This, although his account is 10 years long (about 17 times more "time" than mine)". The point he's trying to make (not sure of the accuracy as I'd rather not read tons of activity, but is a fair argument in itself) is that Borsoka's account is equally [[WP:SPA]]. Similary to Iovaniorgovan's case, he was banned based on a "better safe than sorry" attitude although from the report pages alone (didn't check the talk pages, etc) they did not seem to promote a single nationalistic point. |
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:::Which is why I believe these "strong precendents" are actually bad precendents of loopholes that can be exploited by simply being older on Wikipedia. |
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:::I urge the admins to - please consider the possiblity, not the certainity, the possibility, that tgeorgescu may be heavily biased in favor of the immigrationist theory and consider any addition to the Daco-Roman Continuity theory he doesn't like as "Romanian nationalism". Whether this is done in good faith and he genuinely believes this is "Romanian nationalism" or in bad faith just to ban people he doesn't like is irrelevant, as the end result is the same. And to relax a bit the "better safe than sorry" attitute until the contrary is proven. I haven't done anything to make me seen as a nationalist or as a disrputive editor. Despite tgeorgescu's claim that "clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POVs", I hope you can see from my OP in this report that I was "pushing" for a discussion on the talk page about certain elements of the article specifically because it doesn't seem to comply with NPOV and [[WP:RS/AC]], and I have never excluded any other POVs. I always pushed for having both POVs being presented. |
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:::I have never assumed bad intent in other Wikipedia users, merely different opinions, but this time I have a hard time not assuming bad faith from tgeorgescu, there are just too many things that add up: 1. He instantly reported me after just 1 revert, where I reverting back saying (paraphraisng) "not the case, look at the talk page for context". 2. He is essentially reporting me for violating [[WP:RS/AC]] while I was trying to enforce [[WP:RS/AC]]. 3. He reported me for the statements I deemed as dubious on the page, but from our conversation here he doesn't appear to know what were those statements (you think it's Romanian nationalism that I deemed those statements 'dubious' but at the same time don't know the statements you reported me for?!). 4. There is already a precendent of 2 other people in a similar situation (when I read those cases I was like "wow"), who were banned essentially because it's better to be safe than sorry, and tgeorgescu knows this, thus the instant report for dubious reasons. Again, don't take this as a certainity, only as a possibility, I'm not saying that's the case, I'm saying if that's the case you are essentially allowing the exploitation of a loophole where he can do this with anyone he doesn't like. |
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:::And to tgeorgescu - I don't know whether you are doing this in good faith or bad faith, maybe you genuinely believe that what you are doing is good and have no mean intent. In the hope that you are doing this in good faith, I urge you to consider the quote on your profile - "For the fanatic, the Devil is the intellectual, because the intellectual has doubts". Please, have doubts, be an intellectual. What if your middle-ground position is not actually a middle ground by heavily biased in favor of one or another? what would be the consequences of this? How do you know that is not the case? How can you be certain that you're not pushing for a non-neutral POV to the exclusion of all other POVs while trying to push against nationalistic POV without being aware of it? This is not an "I told you" or ad hoeminem or anything the like, merely something for you to personally consider if you are acting in good faith. |
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::: Back to the admins - I know you have no experience on the particular topic, but try to look for evidence of disruptive editing, war edditing, refusal to cooperate with other Wikipedians or refusal to follow Wikipedia's guidelines rather than looking for details about the subject (which you have no experience in) when it comes to determining whether I'm trying to push a nationalistic POV and exclude all other POV, or merely enforce NPOV and WP:RS/AC, which can be verified without knowledge of the topic. |
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:::I know this response is very long, but after reading the 2 "strong precendents", I went from "the reason for this report makes no sense" to "I have a strong chance of being banned". |
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:::A "gultiy until proven innocent" can lead to a lot of false positives. [[User:TheLastOfTheGiants|TheLastOfTheGiants]] ([[User talk:TheLastOfTheGiants|talk]]) 09:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC) |
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{{tq|To simply the issue (so that is understandable for those who don't know the subject).}} |
{{tq|To simply the issue (so that is understandable for those who don't know the subject).}} |
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:I listed them as "dubious" or "NPOV" in order to discuss them on the talk page. Which if you look at the talk page I did start a conversation there, before getting reported. All the sentences I listed as "dubious" or "NPOV" have this issue, with the contradictory opinion that makes them not general consensus listed in the added "dubious" or "NPOV". |
:I listed them as "dubious" or "NPOV" in order to discuss them on the talk page. Which if you look at the talk page I did start a conversation there, before getting reported. All the sentences I listed as "dubious" or "NPOV" have this issue, with the contradictory opinion that makes them not general consensus listed in the added "dubious" or "NPOV". |
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: Adding those "dubious" and "NPOV" where I drew attention that that is not the general consensus, are the reason I got reported, and may get banned for it. [[User:TheLastOfTheGiants|TheLastOfTheGiants]] ([[User talk:TheLastOfTheGiants|talk]]) 10:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC) |
: Adding those "dubious" and "NPOV" where I drew attention that that is not the general consensus, are the reason I got reported, and may get banned for it. [[User:TheLastOfTheGiants|TheLastOfTheGiants]] ([[User talk:TheLastOfTheGiants|talk]]) 10:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:I should also point out that tgeorgescu not once tried to talk to me, despite me literally saying "please see the talk page", that's his version of conflict resolution. |
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:This is not a report because we talked about it and went nowhere, this is a report because on the article in question, there is no inline attribution from the immigrationist turf; however, there is inline attribution from the continuity turf, violating [[WP:RS/AC]], the Romanians already get the short end of the stick. When I was trying to applying the same [[WP:RS/AC]] standard to both turfs, thus enforcing [[WP:NPOV]], tgeorgescu got offended because he is a supporter of the Immigrationist theory and wants the exclusion of all other POVs as much as possible. |
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⚫ | : To give context: It is a subject of dispute whether elements of the mixed Daco–Roman population survived in Transylvania through the post-classical era becoming the ancestors of modern Romanians, the Daco-Roman Continuity Theory mainly accepted in Romanian histography, or the first Vlachs/Romanians appeared in the area in the 13th century after a northward migration from the Balkan Peninsula, the Immigrationist theory mainly accepted in Hungarian histography. There is an ongoing scholarly debate over the ethnicity of Transylvania's population before the Hungarian conquest. There is no consensus on this one, but tgeorgescu wants to keep the Immigrationist one appear as the consensus. [[User:TheLastOfTheGiants|TheLastOfTheGiants]] ([[User talk:TheLastOfTheGiants|talk]]) 04:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
Revision as of 04:48, 28 July 2022
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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Ghazaalch
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ghazaalch
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Iraniangal777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ghazaalch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- )
- )
- Many warnings (at first they appear to have self-reverted, but now they seem to have lost any regard for policy): ([16]-[17]-[18]-[19])
- Ghazaalch's other disruption: tampering RFCs ([20]-[21]-[22]), not giving explanations in the talk page when asked to explain reverts ([23]-[24]), making false narratives ([25]), stonewalling ([26]-[27]), and other forms of WP:CRP). Even todaythey edit-warred this again using a trumped-up edit summary.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- CASE from a month ago.
- Their Talk page also shows a couple of alerts about discretionary sanctions in this are of conflict.
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 22:49, 25 July 2021.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Done.
Discussion concerning Ghazaalch
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ghazaalch
I won't need to defend myself if the administrators had enough time to go through the discussions in the talk-page, since as I said in a previous Arbitration the main problem with this page is that there is no admin to watch it, so pro-MeK users feel free to do what they like. Here is the summary of the discussion that made Iraniangal777 to bring the case here:
- Revert of names's discussion starts with Vice regent's objection that TheDreamBoat shouldn't have deleted the English versions of Mojahedin-e-Khalq i.e. People Strugglers& Holy Warriors
- TheDreamBoat's response is that the translation is not among the
most common names
used for MeK - VR asks that
How many sources do you require to show you that "People's Strugglers" has been a commonly used name for the organization?
and provides 25 sources that uses the "People Strugglers" and "Holy Warriors" - TheDreamBoat's answer starts with
Hi Tia, Could you please click on this link, and add the following there (at the bottom)
which shows he is editing on behalf of a blocked pro-MeK user.(see Stefka Bulgaria, BarcrMac and Idealigic for the pro-MeK users who were topic-banned before the new ones Fad Ariff, TheDreamBoat, Hogo-2020 and Iraniangal777 emerged) However the reasons that was copy-pasted into the talk page by the proxy was that the 25 sources provided by VR used "MeK" as a common name other than "People Strugglers" and "Holy Warriors" - VR's response is that
no one is disputed the "MEK" name for the organization, I'm only saying that alternative names are also commonly used
- TheDreamBoat was topic-banned by then, so another pro-MeK user (Ypatch) continued the discussion but provided no reason other than
the section doesn't need more name variations
- Then it became obvious that Ypatch himself was topic-banned, so another pro-Mek user (Hogo-2020) continued discussion but gave no reason independent of those given by previous users. Because, as I said in a previous arbitration pro-MeK users don't want to reach consensus. They just discuss, or better say, write something, no matter what it is, to show that they are not convinced, and that there is no consensus yet; meaning you cannot add anything to the article; and since there is no moderator to implement the consensus, they are not worried about the way discussions goes on. So I gave up the discussion.
- Three months later I happened to read a comment by WP:BLOCKEVASION I could revert the deletion by TheDreamBoat, because he had been editing on behalf of a blocked user
- So I reverted TheDreamBoat's deletion, then the edit war started. Now I know that I should have brought the case here instead of involving in edit war.
Being reported by a did-nothing-but-reverting-account, I would also like to summarize another discussion in which pro-MeK users are Gaming the system, deliberately using Wikipedia:Consensus required policy to remove a well sourced content, if you let me exceed 500 words limit.
Statement by Vice regent
Fyi, I'm an involved party. Iraniangal777 you need to engage constructively with Ghazaalch on the topic of names. As Ghazaalch points out, almost all your edits at the article are reverts. You've made three comments on this issue ([29][30][31]) and none of them gave any substantial reason for your revert. You seem to be using WP:CRP to Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling, and this report comes across an attempt to weaponize WP:AE to resolve a content dispute in your favor.VR talk 04:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by MarioGom
I think Ghazaalch's interpretation of
The initial accusation by Iraniangal777 about tag teaming is interesting, because the behavior by Hogo-2020 [32] and Iraniangal777 [33][34] looks pretty much the same like the tag teaming and gaming the system tactics that the previous cohort of sanctioned users used. And they were effectively proxying edits for a topic-banned user. MarioGom (talk) 07:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Alex-h Except Ghazaalch had a legitimate reason to revert a content removal that: 1) had obviously no consensus, and 2) should have not been done in the first place because it was proxying for a blocked user. 1RR or consensus required should have been no excuse to prevent Ghazaalch's revert. It should be the other way around: those seeking to enact TheDreamBoat's illegit content removal should seek consensus for it. MarioGom (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Hogo-2020
Nobody has yet addressed the diffs by Iranigangal777. Instead this is being deflected to TheDreamBoat (an editor already blocked) or to the OP (Iraniangal777). Yet all that the OP has done is revert Ghazaalch's edit-warring, started a RFC about the disputed content, and reported Ghazaalch with evidence in the form of diffs. What is apparent in that article (and in the diffs provided by the OP) is that Ghazaalch has been persistently edit warring (despite the in-progress RFC about that content or the article's regulations, which I can only guess were put in place to prevent this kind of edit warring). Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Alex-h
Accusing Iraniangal777 of "proxying" because she objected to Ghazaalch's edits (as a different editor who is now blocked also did) would be like saying Ghazaalch is "proxying" on behalf of blocked socks
- MarioGom You have this wrong. Ghazaalch did not "revert a content removal", Ghazaalch added new content to the article (some of which concerns an open RFC). Then, when he was told that his additions didn’t have consensus and that he should respect the RFC process, he kept adding (edit warring) that new content to the article anyways using deceiving edit summaries like "Reverting to the version before the edit-warring". Ghazaalch did this in spite of multiple warnings. Alex-h (talk) 15:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Iskandar323
@
Statement by Fad Ariff
@Dennis Brown: The diffs show that Iraniangal merely reverted to the article’s original version and started a RFC. Aside from the deflection and confusion in this thread, the diffs about Ghazaalch show that he kept edit warring his additions despite lack of consensus, despite the ongoing RFC, and despite warnings showing he was violating CRP. Ghazaalch also used a dishonest edit summary to restore his edits after being reported at ANI. Ghazaalch has also been re-arranging the comments of other editors in that RFC (even after being asked to stop [38] [39] [40] ). Like Alex-h clarified for others above, Ghazaalch added this new content to the article, and then proceeded to constant edit war / make WP:CRP violations. Is all of this going unnoticed? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: thank you for your feedback. Maybe you can also take a quick look at Iskandar323 report (the same topic area, and Iskandar323 and myself are also involved there)? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ghazaalch
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- There are a lot of people edit warring on that page, should I just block all of them? I will say this, if you are adding material that describes a group as a "cult", and there is an ongoing RFC about what to add, you need to restore the article to the version that existed before the edit warring started, and hash it out on the talk page in the RFC. The RFC seems to be moving along in a reasonable fashion. If people will stop reverting (which it has slowed down or stopped), then I don't have to break out the ban hammer on everyone. The main point here is that there seems to be a lot of bad behavior going on, although it has slowed. It would be in everyone's best interest to just stop editing that portion and stick to the ongoing RFC BEFORE adding any of that material back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Technically, removing/adding to an article during an RFC isn't a violation of any policy per se. Again, I would really rather let the RFC play out, and you can note the differences in the RFC comment if you want. It is difficult for admin to start parsing content edits without there being a clear behavioral issue at stake. I can't just decide what should or shouldn't be in the article during an RFC. I can block for edit warring, POV pushing and the like, but this is so clear that it's a violation, even if it is a bad idea. It shouldn't change the RFC itself, which is focused on specific wording as an end point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Fad Ariff, there was a lot of back and forth before the RFC start, but technically the RFC started without Ghazaalch's additions. If Ghazaalch reverts again while the RFC is ongoing, I would probably just block them from editing any article. Fortunately, the reverts have been quiet for the last few days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Fad Ariff, I have seen that report, and would hope you got the message down there, as I would rather not sanction you for making frivolous reports, but I can. That would prevent you from making any reports at AE at all. This is not the school yard, and we are not the teachers whom you can go tattle on over every little thing. You, and others, have a habit of making reports for things that aren't actionable, and that will soon come to an end, one way or another. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with the above. If people will just let the RfC run its course, there's no need to start going crazy handing out sanctions; that would be preferable. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Volunteer Marek
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBEE.
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Rania Khalek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Mar 20, 2022: This is Volunteer Marek's (VM) first edit to the article. It adds
Her views have been described as far-left, pro-Assadist, and pro-Putin.
The edit summary says "this was removed by IPs, reverted, removed again etc, until it got missed - restoring". This appears to be a reference to a content dispute from over three years ago in January 2019. A talk page discussion was started Jan 29, 2019 at Talk:Rania Khalek#This is shameful, and "Her views have been described as left-wing/far-left, pro-Syrian government, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Russia." was removed Jan 29, 2019 15:43. As far as I can tell, that content stayed out until Marek restored it on March 20, 2022. - The history shows four edits to the article between VM's edits to the article ending March 20 07:29, and July 5.
- Jul 5 13:36: the edit is remove by Pinkville with edit summary
removing a non-NPOV sentence from the first paragraph and adding it to the Talk page. Its contents can be reinserted in a more appropriate section (e.g. "Criticism"
. Pinkville also made this post to the talk page, in the same thread from 2019. - Jul 5 13:45: Philip Cross restores the content, but places it in the body, not the lead
- Jul 5 18:53: VM moves the content from the body, and puts it back to the lead.
- WP:LABELSand the talk page discussion in the edit summary
- Jul 5 20:02: VM restores the content
- Jul 10 22:15: Huldra removes the content (and replaces it with a different description/source) with edit summary "see talk"; she starts another talk page discussion at Talk:Rania Khalek#The lead
- Jul 10 23:01: VM restores the content
- WP:RfCif you want to include this stuff".
- Jul 11 23:58: VM restores the content with edit summary "Nah, nah, nah. This “UNDUE” business is an obvious false excuse for reverting since you’re fine with her views being summarized in the first place. And with 9 RS in there (more can be easily added but don’t want to ref bomb) the “ONUS” argument is weak sauce too"
- Jul 13 21:51: I remove the content, with edit summary "Disputed content stays out until there is consensus for inclusion, per ONUS. This is especially true of controversial statements about BLPs. Next person to reinstate this without consensus gets a trip to AE."
- Jul 14 01:06: VM restores the content with edit summary "the material is well sourced, the purpose of the lede is precisely to summarize a person's views, there's 9 sources there, all reliable and trying to defend your WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT edits with threats and intimidation in edit summaries fails several Wikipedia policies"
- Jul 14 01:26: VM posts to the article talk page asking me to "explain how you got here" and accusing me of edit warring, "trying to find an excuse to file another (spurious) WP:AE report against an editor that you have a contentious history with" and "stir it up with your ol' friends and pour some cans of gasoline on some fires that had nothing to do with you"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- I don't know about any BLPDS sanctions. Previously sanctioned in WP:EEML.
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously sanctioned in the EE topic area
- Alerted to EE DS June 27, 2022
- Alerted to BLP DS July 14, 2022 00:31
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I think the only AE report I've ever filed before, ironically, was 3 years ago against Huldra. I don't think I've ever taken VM to AE before; I did take him to COIN last year, where there was consensus he had a COI, but that was unrelated to this.
FYI, On July 5, the subject posted about this on Twitter, where she has 250k followers. [41] Levivich[block] 02:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before
is not true. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I've never tried to drag VM before Arbcom or ANI before. I remember this ANEW, this COIN, both from Nov 2021, and I think this is the third. Levivich[block] 03:30, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Aside from linking to some edits, Levivich fails to explain exactly what is supposed to be wrong with any of these edits. The text was there going back to at least 2019 although it got bounced around the in the article. When I put it back in the lede there were 7 reliable sources supporting it. I added two more making it 9. Now there's 11 reliable sources supporting the summary (indeed, it's earned an "excessive citations" tag)
Couple notes:
1. As mentioned on talk, Levivich never edited the article before. As is well known we've had some very serious disputes before, in particular before WP:ARBCOM. His sudden appearance in a middle of my disagreement with another editor looks very much like WP:STALK and a lame attempt at getting payback/restarting old fights.
2. I've been trying not to make too much fuss about it, but one of the other editors who tried to remove the text from the article, User:Pinkville was canvassed off-wiki to perform that edit on someone else's behalf. As soon as an admin comments here I will send the evidence privately. Since they made only one revert though, personally I'd let it slide with a warning.
3. There's some substantial
Anyway, this report by Levivich is just petty and vindictive and about as spurious as they come. They know it too which is why they engage in this pre-emptive "I don't think I've ever taken VM to AE before" (no, but he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before and anyone who's been around for any amount of time knows the whole sorry Icewhiz-related story). Honestly, this deserves
he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before is not true.
Oh my god Levivich, are you seriously going to pretend that there isn't some serious history here? Somehow you conveniently "forgot" your part in this little ArbCom fiasco (in which you played a HUGE role in agitating against me). I mean, for cow's sake, you wrote... let me check ... 2400 words (words, not characters) there demanding sanctions against me (was rejected), but now you're here with this little "Volunteer Who? Barely heard of them before!" act? Seriously? Volunteer Marek 03:45, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Lol. "Disclosure unauthorised" has ... two edits. Anyone want to venture a guess who this is? I'd offer a bet but it's too easy. Volunteer Marek 06:26, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Note: Levivich just broke the 1RR restriction imposed on the talk page, twice [42] [43] [44]. Since they just filed this report (which counts as notice of DS) and they've been editing in this area for a long time, they're fully aware that the 1RR restriction is in place. Volunteer Marek 18:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
@Huldra: User:Pinkville was canvassed to revert on that article off-wiki (if they had insisted on it, I would’ve reported them here). Another major contributor who disagreed here has a big ol’ COI (co worker). Those kind of comments/input *should* be ignored (or even sanctioned). That leaves pretty much you and Levivich, with Levivich jumping in at last second, for, you know, “his own reasons”. Volunteer Marek 00:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Pinkville, I’m not sure why you insist on pretending like there’s nothing here. One person asked another person off wiki to “fix” the article for them (I.e. curate the article to their liking), that person then said their partner was an admin on Wiki and could take care of it, at which point you popped up and said you’d take care of it. Through out your involvement with article, even after I alluded to the behind the scenes stuff that you were engaged in, you failed to be upfront or even acknowledge the fact that you were contacted and asked off wiki to edit the article and were doing so, “as an admin”, at the behest of your partner. This is the “basis in reality” that you somehow are sitting here denying exists.
I’ve genuinely been trying to be cool about this since your involvement in the article was minor (perhaps because I indicated my awareness of the situation caused you to hold back) but broadly speaking that kind of off-wiki coordination and doing edits on behalf of other users (acting as their
Under the circumstances I believe the “scale of my accusations” was as mild as possible. I tried to only make you aware that I was aware of what was going on. I *could* have, and in retrospect perhaps *should* have, immediately brought this off wiki canvassing/meatpuppetry/coordination to a notice board and asked for your tools to be removed, which is what often happens in such cases. Volunteer Marek 04:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
- Well hello obvious sock, but commenting in a talk page does not satisfy any awareness requirement, but that does show ARBPIA awareness. But there still is no explanation of what in ARBPIA was violated here. But really, do you feel like your argument is strengthened or diminished by the appearance of obvious bad hand accounts? nableezy - 06:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Largely agree with KoA after reading that diff, If you were really concerned about upholding BLP policy, as you claim to be, you'd have been satisfied when I added eight sources backing up a controversial claim about a living person. But no, you're not satisfied with that, because you don't care about BLP, you only care about getting Atsme in trouble, because you don't like Atsme, because she disagrees with you in content disputes. is actually, word for word, what happened here. I dont actually agree with VM's edit, and I think he should self-revert and open an RFC, but that quote could be featured on the old Daily Show skit of a person arguing against themselves. Seems more based on personal vendetta than anything AE worthy here, and that should merit a boomerang. The 1RR violation may be excusable, if and only if a BLP/N thread was opened after they claimed it to be a BLP violation. But they did not, and Levivich is aware of the discretionary sanctions for ARBPIA, the edit-notice is listed, and he should be sanctioned for violating the 1RR (again). nableezy - 20:59, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- François Robere there isnt a BLPRESTORE revert here, there wasnt a claimed BLP violation until after the last edit in the complaint. There certainly is below, and Im on pins and needles to see if it gets dealt with. nableezy - 14:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- François Robere I hadnt seen that, and I agree at that point BLPRESTORE should have been followed. But it does matter when the objection was actually raised, because otherwise it simply does not apply. nableezy - 18:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by GizzyCatBella
So
- Here we go again...Mr. 2 edits Disclosure unauthorized...(better fitting name would be Entrance denied) 3.5 hours? What took you so long? - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
This should help - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Pinkville - You're basically in a tense content disagreement with VM and PC. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note:
- The article has been nominated for deletion (good idea) - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article has been deleted - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Disclosure unauthorised
I think not.
|
---|
You can look at Twitter and see just how wrong this all is. V. Marek knows about BLP because over here he warns about a BLP smear. V. Marek knows about Palestine because he commented here. He knows about Eastern Europe because he commented here. |
Statement by Sir Joseph
Based on this AE action brought by VM, I would think this is actionable as well, even if VM calls it petty, etc. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive224#Sir Joseph
Statement by KoA
I'll will admit this request does come across as Levivich out to get VM that I'm getting hints of
It looks like Levivich has a pretty clear vendetta against VM based on even a quick perusal of their talk page. It's pretty clear this is a multi-editor dispute at the article itself, so for Levivich to come here singling out VM is really looking like they are not heeding their warning back at ANI about this kind of behavior at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#User:Levivich_long-term_tendentious_editing battleground behavior and more at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1099#Levivich_and_personal_attacks. Given how often they're around AE, ANI, etc. and the history with VM, Levivich's comments about never taking VM to AE are bordering on purposely misleading with that kind of history going on in the background since it gives an appearance of being not quite as involved as they actually are, and don't really seem to take heed of the previous battleground cautions they've been getting.
I think what puts this over the top for me is that Levivich is using this interaction to jump into an edit war against VM at the article. I'm also seeing more heat/tendentiousness rather than clearly showing a BLP exception to edit warring. I'd be pretty apt to suggest at least a one-way interaction ban on Levivich towards VM because I would have concerns about gaming/wiki-lawyering from Levivich based on past admin discussions, but if practicality is an issue, making it two-way "no-fault" just to try to settle the topic down might be the best. I don't know the topic dynamics enough to know if that could cause gaming elsewhere, but this interaction at least does seem to be a problem as part of Levivich's wider issues. KoA (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed Nableezy, I would have some issues with VM's content (albeit very workable) if I was involved in the topic, VM seems able to work with non-tendentious editors based on comments I've seen without the need for sanctions. I set that to the side once I saw how Levivich was antagonizing the situation even further, and I'm always extremely cautious when I see someone vaguely using BLP as an excuse to edit war and continue long-standing disputes against another.
- This part of the Levivich's statement towards VM struck me the most though:
If you were a teenager or in your early twenties, I'd chalk it up to still-developing executive functions, but unfortunately there is no such excuse for your behavior. Find a more productive hobby than fucking with people on the internet. May I suggest building an encyclopedia.
That alone is already establishing the existing battleground invective toward VM, but speaks to the lack of self-awareness that seems to be permeating this most recent dispute. That kind of behavior is what DS are supposed to tamp down at least. KoA (talk) 21:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
Though I must say I am disappointed with Volunteer Marek's (VM) behaviour at the Khalek-page, I am not sure this report belongs here at AE. Two editors before me (Pinkville and Burrobert) object to the stuff VM is working so hard to insert in the Khalek article. VM's reaction is to double down and insert it, anyway.
And no-one has claimed that no source have called Khalek "pro-Assadist and pro-Kremlin", the objection is that this is one side of the story, also (as mentioned on the talk-page) many (most?) of those labelling her that are blogs and opinion-pieces.
User:Pinkville wrote on the talk-page 02:05, 6 July 2022 "This article doesn't provide information about Khalek's views, it provides almost exclusively views purported to be hers by people and institutions that are hostile to her and the positions she has actually taken, e.g. her pro-Palestinian stance. To be a fair article, her own views/work should be presented, and any worthwhile criticism of her views/work can be included as appropriate. This is going to take some collective effort, but we're going to make this a reasonable, fair article, which it is not at the moment. Sound good? " I think this was a pretty reasonable summary/reflection; too bad VM chose to ignore it and edit-war instead.
And for full disclosure (all "oldtimers" tend to have some common history) I believe this is the first time I have been "on the same side" in a dispute with Levivich. As for VM; at times I have been 100% supportive of him (as with the #$%&!@& User:I...); other times we have disagreed. Huldra (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:RfC like it was a joke. Big thanks to GizzyCatBella for doing what should have been your job (pr ONUS); ie starting an RfC. Your behaviour on the Khalek-page leaves me seriously unimpressed, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2022 (UTC)]
Statement by Pinkville
I removed a non-NPOV sentence from the article and added it to the Talk Page with the open invitation to any editors to update the article to better conform to NPOV, including reinserting criticism or some version of the sentence in a more appropriate context and once content had been added to provide a neutral summary of Khalek's work and views. Later the same day I left a message [45] on the talk page of an editor (ImprovedWikiImprovment) who had worked on this article two+ years ago and who I thought had approached the subject and the discussion fairly. Not long after, VM left this reply [46] to me on the same user talk page. I was surprised by the tone and scale of VM's accusations against me - none of which have any basis in reality. Accordingly, I left a reminder of
- WP:FORUMSHOP. Of course you are free to make your own opinions on the subject known on the talk page. Volunteer Marek 05:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)". That was after I'd made one, possibly two edits, and asked one other editor who had previously worked on the article if they were interested in looking at it again. If these are examples of you "trying to be cool" (in response to zero provocation) then maybe you should take a little Wikibreak. Pinkville (talk) 22:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)]
Statement by Aquillion
This is a valid content dispute, but everyone involved comes across looking bad. A statement that Her views have been described as far-left, pro-Assadist, and pro-Putin
cited to a bunch of reasonably prominent, high-profile opinion pieces published in reputable publications saying as much is not a sufficiently clear-cut BLP violation to justify a 3RR exemption or require immediate sanctions; but it certainly may be
Statement by François Robere
Can admins comment on the applicability of
- @Nableezy: Burrobert raised a BLP objection on July 5th at 21:50,[49] around the same time they removed the content from the article (the OP's diff #6 [50]), and Pinkville raised it the next day.[51] VM restored it three more times after that.
- Not that it matters. The fact that a slew of objections have been made on a BLP's page should be enough, regardless of whether anyone actually raised the policy. François Robere (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Gitz6666
After having written one of the longest tirades against Volunteer Marek (VM) since the times of the
I believe that this is not the kind of editor that should be allowed to work in this project. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC); edited 21:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Adoring nanny
I have interacted with both VM and Gitz at articles related to the Ukraine war and have clashed somewhat with Gitz, but it has been workable. I believe the articles are strengthened by the diversity of views. I would not want to lose either of them in this topic area. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:35, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Result concerning Volunteer Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- There are no rewards/points cards for being reported at AE, though 22 times might have earned you a free large soda. </sarcasm> — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvergreenFir (talk • contribs) 22:06, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Without comment on the merits in this report, I blocked WP:XRV. I won't comment on this report. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)]
- I'm sympathetic to the need to go through multiple lengthy processes to try to get a possible BLP vio addressed in areas where there is ongoing contention. This article/issue is currently being discussed in three places besides here. valereee (talk) 22:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Golden
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Golden
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ZaniGiovanni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Golden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 17 June 2022 - Golden removes Armenian name from the lead with insufficient explanation.
- 8 July 2022 - Golden decides to reply to the solid arguments presented on talk just a mere 20 days later, despite editing numerous times during those days. The reply is an irrelevant search result that isn’t pertaining to the arguments of including the alternative name in the lead, and there is more disturbing context to it, see my elaboration in the additional comments below. WP:CIR
- 9 July 2022 - Golden reinstates their own problematic edit less than 12 hours later with “rv per talk”, referring to their subpar talk reply and ignoring consensus on talk. WP:CIR
- 17 June 2022; [59], [60] (18 June 2022) - Golden rewrote articles while adding unsourced “forcing the Azerbaijani population to flee”. After I asked them to clarify on Talk:Mərzili#Unsourced and addressed their latest argument, also asking them to stop doing same sentence additions until the discussion is over and we have some sort of consensus, they still continued doing so now with “forcing the Kurdish and Azerbaijani population to flee”, without a source and without engaging/explanation to my last comment. WP:CIR
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 16 April 2020 - Blocked for sockpuppetry for 3 days
- 3 April 2021 - Blocked for sockpuppetry indefinitely
- 22 October 2021 - Put under AA topic ban as an unblock condition
- 23 April 2022 - AA topic ban lifted
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 9 May 2022
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Golden was blocked for sockpuppeting and, on a condition to remove the block, put under an AA topic ban. Although the topic ban was appealed a few months ago on April 23rd, Golden has continued to display the same tendentious pattern that resulted in their block and topic ban, as much of their sockpuppeting focused on name changes for settlements in Azerbaijan. I did a courtesy warning about one of Golden's edits to their mentor, see User_talk:MJL#Monitoring_/_mentoring. Golden agreed to self-revert the tendentious edit per their mentor's advice. However, the problematic behavior of Golden in the AA area didn’t improve even after this.
They removed the Armenian name from the Zangilan lead with insufficient explanation, see the 1st diff. They were replied to with talk arguments that they didn’t address for 20 days. It gets very confusing and bad faith from here on; user Armatura who made the arguments was blocked on 8th of July (unrelated to Zangilan lead), only after which, hours later, Golden finally bothered to reply to a now blocked user. With what intentions when now Armatura can't reply back, I'm not sure. Golden’s reply itself was an irrelevant search result and didn't address the arguments of alternative name in the lead (wasn't a move discussion). But Golden didn't stop there; they restored their own edit less than 12 hours later after that 20 day delayed reply, with an edit summary "per talk". They reinstated their own edit based on that subpar talk comment when the opposing user has no means to reply. Even other opposing editors on talk (who formed consensus) didn’t have the chance to reply either (when I saw Golden’s reinstating edit, I reverted and commented myself).
In good faith, I asked about this on Golden’s talk first, wanting to understand their rationale. There should’ve been one I thought given how serious this is, given their recent tban, and given that I just notified about their tendentious edit after the tban - all of these should’ve been enough reflection for Golden and I expected a well justified rationale for their behavior. Yet all I received were elusive justifications and reassurances that amount to nothing at this point, User_talk:Golden#I_want_to_understand_your_rationale_first.
Other examples include Golden adding unsourced content in articles without addressing the arguments, see the diffs in 4th point. I think this user didn't learn anything and their tban should be reinstated, the length of their original probation wasn't enough to make them edit without tendentious pattern/behavior. Perhaps, an indef would be more suiting.
- Tamzin Golden shows diff from June, claiming that "information was there" and they only expanded. In reality, it was added by Golden themselves, 23 April, after their tban appeal, with no source. The later expansion added more unsourced wording without addressing talk arguments.
- The issue now isn’t whether a source for it actually exists or not, but that Golden was pushing it without having a source himself and that he omitted adding it in April. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:43, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Golden
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Golden
I explained my reasoning for the first three diffs (which are all part of the same dispute) here, and I don't have anything else to add at the moment. Regarding the last diff, I provided ZaniGiovanni with a reliable source for the change, which he did not find satisfactory and requested further detail from sources. I believe the source I've provided is sufficient enough and the level of detail he is expecting is unrealistic, which is why I haven't responded further. — Golden call me maybe? 19:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Tamzin: The following information was already in the article prior to my rewrite ([62]):
The Azerbaijani and Kurdish population of the village fled during the First Nagorno-Karabakh when Armenian forces captured the village.
So my expansion added no new information about this in particular. — Golden call me maybe? 16:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by MJL
This edit had sufficient explanation. These were not solid arguments
and starts with a bold-face falsehood because Armatura pointed out Golden's revert 3 minutes after Golden had already self-reverted. This is the type of thing that made Armatura difficult to deal with, so understandably Golden decided to disengage for a while. Where Golden went wrong was re-instating their edits so soon after their reply (and waiting so long to reply in general). However, it is a stretch to say anything on that talk page was a "consensus" for either side. ZG claims there was, but that is doubtful with the amount of bad faith found in that thread.
Golden consistently expresses a willingness to listen to others and self-correct. ([63]) They have written content like Declaration of Independence of Azerbaijan to GA status since the topic ban has been lifted. Golden has been almost entirely absent from the drama boards which I personally find incredibly commendable.
Does Golden still get into disputes? Of course, but they have kept their cool even during stressful situations. If most editors in AA2 were like Golden, then the project would be better off in my opinion.
That said, I am biased here. Golden is a wiki-friend of mine. The "mentor-mentee" aspect of our relationship is a bit overblown (it's mostly just me being supportive and pointing out any potential missteps as I see them). I was personally incredibly upset about these two edits since I was involved with Armatura's block and don't want anyone to think I did that to proxy for Golden or anything. Armatura's behavior had been bothering me for a while, but if I weighed in on the content dispute itself I would probably have taken his side.
–
- @☖ 05:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Golden
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @ZaniGiovanni: Your statement, including addendum, is currently at 752 words. Please shorten it to at most 500. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 03:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for trimming your statement, ZaniGIovanni.There's nothing wrong with waiting a while to respond to something, assuming you have no WP:VOLUNTEER). However, restoring the edit without waiting for discussion—noting that, while Armatura had been blocked by this point, Laurel Lodged had also commented agreeing with Armatura—was suboptimal, at the very least, and not the kind of behavior you want to see from someone fresh off of a TBAN. My greater concern, though, is with ZaniGiovanni's fourth point. Adding]
forcing the Kurdish and Azerbaijani population to flee
to an article, without a citation, after being previously called out for usage of similar phrases, seems like poor judgment at best, and a provocation at worst. Golden, could you please comment on [64] in particular? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 16:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)- Acknowledging the pings I've gotten here; would like to hear other admins' perspectives before commenting further. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 15:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Gitz6666
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Gitz6666
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:02, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Eastern Europe
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [65] removal of well-sourced claims about forceful deportations of Ukrainian children because (edit summary) “no allegation of war crime”. Gitz6666 explains why he thinks this is not a war crime [66]: “…drafting a law on adoption is not a war crime… There are many different interests at stake here, and the interest of Ukraine in avoiding Russian naturalisations is only one (and relatively minor compared to the interests of the child)”. Surprisingly, but Gitz6666 considers this as a legitimate adoption. ??? No, that is a heinous war crime, possibly even a genocide – according to RS [67].
- [68], [69], [70] [71]– removal of well sourced (NYT, BBC, etc. ) claims about rapes by Russian soldiers. Why? Because (edit summaries) “WP:EXCEPTIONAL”, “this text fails WP:V spectacularly” etc. No, this info does not fail WP:V.
- [72] – including six "alleged" and negative info on Ukrainian ombudswoman that does not belong to the page. The “alleged” is not supported by sources. For example, there was no doubts that the bodies of civilians were burned by Russian soldiers (2nd “alleged” in the diff); there was no doubts that the mayor was abducted by armed men (3rd “alleged”), and so on. Note that the edit was revert over objections by other contributors.
[73], [74], [75], [76] edit warring to include the following: “The Russian military allegedly exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and(striked through to reduce volume of the request)cluster munitions”. How come? There is no question they indeed attacked the civilian population and killed civilians using cluster munitions - as a matter of fact [77].- [78] a removal of reliably sourced claim that Russian forces used Ukrainian children as human shields.
[79] removal of reliably sourced allegations by the British ambassador to the United Nations of sexual violence against children by Russian troops.- [80] removing well sourced info about killing over 50 elderly persons in a Ukrainian care home by Russian soldiers and placing it to a section about war crimes ("human shields") committed by Ukrainian forces [81]. Here is the initial version of this section [82]. Well, according to the most recent sources [83], these people have been killed by Russian forces, but there are "both sides to blame". But even if "there are two sides to blame", this is not how Gitz666 frames this issue. He frames it as war crime exclusively by Ukrainian forces [84]. Actually, no RS say it was a "war crime" committed exclusively by Ukrainian forces.
- [85],[86] - removal of well sourced info about torture and killing of Ukrainian POWs with improper justification in edit summary.
[87],[88],[89],[90],[91] - edit warring to include section on Missile attack in Donetsk as a war crime where "Russia and Ukraine blamed each other for the strike". Well, the best and most recent RS on this subject was article in WaPo [92] entitled " Inside "Russia’s propaganda bubble: Where a war isn’t a war". It tells that according to Ruslan Leviev, a leader and founder of Conflict Intelligence Team, an independent fact checking organization, all "photos from the incident suggest the missile flew from Russian-controlled territory and was not intercepted [as claimed by DPR representatives]". Meaning, that was a false flag attack by Russian forces.- [93] removal of sourced info that Denisova shared her database with reports by victims with other government officials and prosecutors. This is a misrepresentation by Gitz6666. No, the in-line reference used to support the statement (an article in NYT) does say that she shared her database with other government officials [94]. On the other hand, the article in Ukrainian Pravda discussed on talk does not say she did not share her database with any other Ukrainian officials.
- additional explanations for several diffs
Diff #1. While the intention of Gitz could indeed be a replacement and "softening" the text (he removed "The parents of some of these children were killed by Russian military" and assigned all claims exclusively to opinion by Zelensky), he also clearly explained the purpose of his edit [95] in edit summary: No allegation of war crime here - drafting a law, possibly violating the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child do not amount to war crimes, or at least no RS say so. This is a blatant misrepresentation of the in-line source used in the diff [96] because it says: "By doing so, the Kremlin violates Articles 7 and 21 of the Convention on the Right of the Child (UN) and Article 49 of the Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflicts." Article 49 of the Geneva Convention. Violating it is a war crime by definition.
- [97] - Gitz6666 continue misinterpreting things on this noticeboard. Yes, of course, the source tells about forceful deportations (some sources say "kidnappings") of children as a war crime, not about legitimate adoptions. But the text removed by Gitz6666 and referenced to this source [98] is also not about legitimate adoptions ("Russian authorities have also kidnapped more than 121,000 Ukrainian children" and so on). My very best wishes (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Diffs #2. No, that was not about Denisova, since Gitz also removes other content. In the first diff of this series he removes an independent claim by British ambassador to the United Nations Barbara Woodward. In 3rd and 4th diffs he removes "reports ... compiled by independent Ukrainian journalists and published by the Ukrainian parliament". My very best wishes (talk) 01:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Diff #7. Based on their response [99], Gitz6666 insists that the killing of elderly patients by Russian forces should be described as a war crime committed by Ukrainian forces. This is a misinterpretation because "The report by the UN’s Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights doesn’t conclude the Ukrainian soldiers or the Moscow-backed separatist fighters committed a war crime." [100] (does NOT conclude), hence this content arguably does not belong to the page, but in any case is not a war crime by Ukrainian forces. My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- User is aware as noted at the top of their talk page: [101]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I am reporting this because some other contributors suggested that the matter could be considered at WP:AE [102]. Gitz6666 has 2,000+ edits mostly related to war crimes in Ukraine. I think diffs above are enough to establish the pattern, but there are more his recent edits of same nature: [103], [104],[105],[106],[107],[108][109].
- I am sorry for bringing this complaint (I strike through 3 diffs above to reduce the volume), but I think Gitz6666 is the most elaborate and persistent POV-pusher in this area, and he continue doing the same even during this request [110],[111]. This is related to diff #10 above. Here are my comments on talk [112],[113],[114],[115] and reply by Gitz6666 [116]. This is an example of discussing something with Gitz6666.
- Git6666 provided examples of his allegedly neutral edits. Each of them should be checked carefully in context. For example, Gitz6666 provides this diff ("correcting a gross misrepresentation in the lead section of 2014 Odessa clashes") as the best proof of his unbiased editing. The correction was: "a pro-Maidan mob attacked anti-Maidan activists" -> "a pro-Maidan demonstration was attacked by anti-Maidan activists". Yes, but Gitz6666 also made this edit [117] meaning that, no, these guys were actually not anti-Maidan activists, but agents-provocateurs presumably dispatched by pro-Maidan forces. My very best wishes (talk) 20:23, 22 July 2022 (UTC)]
- The campaign by Gitz6666 to exclude all statements attributed by RS to Denisova (see Elinruby below). Yes, that was discussed on RSNB, and I think it boils down to this: [118]. My very best wishes (talk) 14:57, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- My conclusion that Gitz6666 is a relentless POV-pusher on "pro-Russian" side is by no means exceptional. Six other contributors came to the same conclusion during recent ANI discussion: [119]. My very best wishes (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- User notified [120]. My very best wishes (talk) 04:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Gitz6666
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Gitz6666
Without entering into details (diff by diff reply to MVBW is in
the most elaborate POV-pusher in this subject area
which sounds almost as a compliment, but it's false. I'm not a POV-pusher for the Russian side. I believe that the Russian army is committing hideous war crimes in Ukraine and I'd very much welcome the perpetrators being brought to account before a court of law. Admittedly most of my edits are related to war crimes in Ukraine - I wrote nearly 1/3 of
I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for including a pro-Russian POV. I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountability for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a damn about the Ukrainian/Russian divide, I see only victims and perpetrators. To put it differently: this is not my war. If it were, I wouldn't be editing there.
As I'm not a pro-Russian POV-pusher, why is MVBW reporting me here? The reason is that I've constantly opposed the attempt by MVBW and
I agree with
At the very beginning of this discussion I asked MVBW if they had ever made one edit or one comment mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of Ukrainian war crimes ([130]). MVBW replied in
And they are also a crystal-clear case of
Tendentiousness and edit warring are not at all new to MVBW. I understand that until 30 April 2015 they were called User:Biophys, had a nice record at AE (e.g. [135] [136] [137]) and were also part of a group of editors who coordinated off-wiki to approach the articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics with battlefield mentality and edit warring [138].
I'd like AE to throw the most astounding and powerful
- Comments, questions
@
- @War crimes during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? All the allegations by MVBW concern my editing there, and the editors who are active on that article might be interested in making a statement. I myself am quite curious about what they think about this matter. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:52, 25 July 2022 (UTC)]
Statement by (Alex Bakharev)
The article is on my Watchlist. As far as I can see it Glitz is a productive user and certainly not a pusher for the pro-Putin point of view. He is trying to weed the article out of questionable facts. Like for example
Statement by Volunteer Marek
While the Denisova stuff is debatable, I think there are at least two clear cut violations in the above diffs provided by MVBW. First problem is that Gitz6666 is using Denisova as an excuse to remove OTHER sources. Basically if Denisova said it, he’s removing it EVEN IF other, independent sources say the same thing. You can see that in this diff (in #2 above), where he removes text starting with “The existence of credible allegations…” which is cited to CBS news not Denisova. There’s other instances of this kind of
2nd big problem is #7. Somehow “Russians shelled a home for the elderly” gets turned into “Ukrainians used elderly as human shields”. EVEN IF some sources speculate on presence of Ukrainian forces near the elderly home, NONE of them state that Ukrainians used these elderly as “human shields”. That’s original research at best and a gross misrepresentation of sources at worst.
I haven’t looked into all the diffs provided above so this is a non-exhaustive summary of potential problems here. Volunteer Marek 18:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry but what the hey is this: Gitz6666 says/claims do they (MVBW and others) think that NATO will enter the war because Wikipedia reports that the mother of a Russian soldier gets sexually aroused when her son describes to her the way he tortures Ukrainians?
. Where and when did "Wikipedia report that the mother of a Russian soldier got sexually aroused" by... well, anything??? This is the diff Gitz6666 gives. That's not what it says at all. In fact there's nothing in there about "sexual arousal". Of anyone.
If Gitz6666 is going to accuse other editors of hyperbole perhaps they shouldn't engage in it themselves? Volunteer Marek 21:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry Gitz6666 but you're being disingenuous. You quote text from the Mirror which was never used in Wikipedia. Likewise NO ONE ever tried to put into Wikipedia that the mother was "sexually aroused" - but you are pretending that someone did. NO ONE even PROPOSED that such text be added. Certainly not in the discussion you link. But you are pretending that someone did. The actual text that you were trying to remove was much milder and supported by reliable sources (NPR etc). So again, you're trying to pull a switcheroo here - claiming that people want to include one piece of text (which they don't) and using that as a false excuse to try and remove text which says something different.
In that light, perhaps it's worthwhile to look at this ANI discussion which dealt with the same kind of problematic approach to editing these articles. Some comments from uninvolved users from that discussion:
I will not be surprised if this report (by Gitz6666) ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG
- User:GizzyCatBellaI'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice
-User:Iskandar323. This report here shows that you're still trying to do the exact same thing.I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here and I note they have had an ARBEE alert in April
- User:Black Kite who is the one suggested taking this to WP:AEGitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine
- User:Only in deathon the article about war crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of the Ukraine, to the extent he pushed anything, it was *back* on Gitz6666’s extremely consistent advocacy of a Russian narrative on every single detail, minimization of sexual misconduct, and attempts to include vague Russian allegations of Ukrainian misconduct. Gitz is aware that he does (this)
by User:ElinrubySelective application of standards is a persistent issue with Gitz
andGitz (and another user) routinely ignore talk page discussions when editing, claim their edits are not disputed while there are talk page threads actively disputing their edits
- User:Shadybabs (arguably involved)
This report here shows that you didn't take ANY of these multiple users' comments into consideration. Volunteer Marek 04:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Gitz6666 - what are you talking about here? MVBW, for no reasons apart their ideological zeal and party loyalty, has harassed one of the most active, scrupulous and useful contributors to War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
? Are you referring to yourself in such high and lofty terms? Really?
Anyway, the escalating personal attacks coming from Gitz6666 in the course of this report clearly show that there is indeed a
Statement by PaulT2022
I was not involved as an editor, however as a reader I think the article in question would benefit from more rigorous application of
It appears that strongly held beliefs of editors on both sides result in different interpretation of the sources. For example, in the allegation No.9, investigator Ruslan Leviev says in the referenced interview (1:25) that CIT estimates that there's a 70% likelihood that the rocket was launched from the Russian side, and up to 30% chance that it was intercepted as claimed by DPR. This is interpreted as a statement of a proven fact by one editor, and as a 50-50 chance by another.
Life experiences and beliefs of editors would inevitably affect interpretation of the sources and it would be unfortunate if content discussions, much needed in this situation, would be constrained by the threat of sanctions from mutual accusations of POV pushing. --PaulT2022 (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC), clarified last sentence PaulT2022 (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Elinruby
I was still processing the fact that
(Somewhat later)
I think the ANI thread MVBW and VM linked to above is an excellent example of Gitz’ utter conviction of his correctness; in it I also link to the *previous* RSN thread about Denisova and in addition tell him (19:33, 27 June 2022 and following) that in the lede to an article he had badly misrepresented a source. I wrote it off at the time to the perils of machine translation, but it remains uncorrected he is still reinserting it. Elinruby (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
in answer
- @Gitz6666: I am here because you doubled down at RSN. (You really don’t listen, do you?) Nor am I buds with VM, at all, but he quoted me accurately and I stand by the statement. And I dunno, if somebody told me I had misrepresented a source, I’d be trying to address that, personally. Elinruby (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Gitz6666: I answered you at the talk page. This is also extensively discussed in the ANI thread. I suppose I can get you a diff but it isn’t like the article has a lot of history. Elinruby (talk) 18:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Gitz6666: Good, you found the thread where I discuss cognates, and as I just did *again* at the talk page, note the fact that “vérifier” means “to check”, not “to verify”. Levivich (talk · contribs) called your edit an “overstatement”. I call it wrong, kinda like “made unverified statements” does not equal “alas, unreliable”. I have explained extensively and provided links and diffs; I have probably reached my word limit and will not reply further to you here. It’s just a shame we had to be at AE before you could could hear me. Elinruby (talk) 22:44, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by AdrianHObradors
I haven't been involved on Eastern Europe articles for a while, but I believe that limiting Gitz6666 from editing there would be a big mistake. It is a very difficult subject to keep with a NPOV right now, yet he has been able to maintain some pages reasonably neutral. Of course, when almost everyone, and even a lot of the press, has an (understandable) bias, trying to keep things NPOV can seem as if the person enforcing it has on its own a bias, and it isn't hard to cherry pick some and try to portrait someone as biased. NPOVing those articles is a hard task, which Gitz6666 has been performing diligently. I want to mention that both VolunteerMarek and MVBW do show a bias on their edits, (MVBW himself has expressed his believe that he probably is not able to edit with a neutral point of view on this subject here), and Volunteer Marek's edits sometimes border the unconstructive. Gitz6666 however helps keep an equilibrium, and I believe it would be for the worst to enforce any kind of sanction against Gitz6666. --AdrianHObradors (talk) 08:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
This has transformed from an arbitration enforcement request to an arbitration case request, mostly because no admin has shown any interest in it before it quintupled in size. Well one did, to say it was too large. I think it has gotten larger since. nableezy - 15:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Pravega
There was no need to file this report. Apart from edit warring which happened from all sides, everything else looks like a content dispute.
I also agree with other editors that Gitz6666 is the best editor in this entire dispute. I recommend closing with no action.❯❯❯Pravega g=9.8 05:18, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Adoring nanny
I have interacted with VM, Gitz, and MVBW at articles related to the Ukraine war and have clashed somewhat with Gitz, but it has been workable. I believe the articles are strengthened by the diversity of views. Different users do have different POV, and that's OK! I would not want to lose any of them in this topic area. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Gitz6666
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Gitz6666, statements are limited to 500 words. Yours is currently more than four times that amount. Please do some substantial trimming. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm generally sympathetic to requests from the parties to a request to have some additional words, so I'll grant both the filer and the respondent an extension to whatever they're currently at, but stop there please. AE is not for long walls of text or lengthy back and forth conversations, nor discussion of what articles should or should not say; that's not decided here. Volunteer Marek, you are not a party to the filing; trim back to 500 please. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:27, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Philip Cross
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Philip Cross
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Philip Cross (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:NEWBLPBAN
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- WP:BLPSPS, straight revert of what was a good faith claimed BLP violation (discussed here)
- WP:BLPRESTORE, straight revert of a claimed in good faith as a BLP violationwithout affirmative consensus
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Notified of BLP DS 15:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I requested the user self-revert the blatant
- And somebody should revert the violation, I just dont want to end up at XRV and do it myself. nableezy - 06:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Philip has been editing since this report was filed, yesterday and today, and as he apparently voluntarily declines to participate here this should actioned without regard for his absence. nableezy - 14:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:BLPRESTORE twice within a few days, and refused to self-revert both times. That he has previously been found to be disruptively editing BLPs of those whose politics he opposes should lead to a full BLP ban at this point, and it is not much ado about nothing. If somebody wants to prove that Levivich had options besides edit-warring out BLP issues then here is your chance. nableezy - 16:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)]
- Im at a loss as to how anybody is missing the BLP violation here. The BLP violation is restoring an edit without modification that was removed as a BLP violation without consensus. It doesnt matter if it was sourced to the word of God Himself, if something is removed with a good faith claim of a BLP violation then it is a straightforward violation of WP:BLPRESTORE to simply re-revert that material back in to the article without an affirmative consensus for it. Both of those edits are BLP violations, and it is a modus operandi for Philip. So is the longstanding editing practice of attempting to fill in to BLPs of people he dislikes any negative material one can find on the internet sourced to whatever marginal or straight up unreliable source he can find, and then basically refusing to discuss it. I am at a loss as to how this straightforward BLP violation in an article on somebody whose politics he dislikes, by an editor restricted from editing other BLPs of those whose politics he dislikes, is basically being ignored. nableezy - 20:43, 24 July 2022 (UTC)]
- Im at a loss as to how anybody is missing the BLP violation here. The BLP violation is restoring an edit without modification that was removed as a BLP violation without consensus. It doesnt matter if it was sourced to the word of God Himself, if something is removed with a good faith claim of a BLP violation then it is a straightforward violation of
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Philip Cross
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Philip Cross
Statement by Cullen 328
That blog post by Petra Marquardt-Bigman is a highly opinionated piece that shows no evidence of editorial control or review or fact checking. It is a diatribe and a screed, not journalism. It is so flagrantly biased that I cannot see how it can possibly used in a biography of a living person. Cullen328 (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
Oh, good lord, is this the same dispute as the Volunteer Marek request above? Anyway, the answer is similar; the older diff is not the sort of clear-cut BLP violation that would justify sanctions for restoring it once - it's "this person has been described as X" citing a number of sources to reasonably high-quality non-SPS opinion pieces describing them that way. It's probably
Statement by My very best wishes
Yes, this source should not be used by Philip Cross, and he should not be reverting. But ( striking this through per comment by Mhawk10 below). This was hardly anything significant in terms of content. The cited source supports the following text [140]: In an address at Berkeley in April 2015, Khalek said Israel was responsible for exporting military technology intended for repressing minorities having tested it in Gaza. OK. Looking at the next sourced/undisputed phrase, it says She compared Israel to
Statement by LittleChongsto
I agree that Philip Cross has shown a repeated pattern of biased and bad faith edits in various BLPs over many years. I honestly find it very surprising that they're still allowed to edit BLPs at all, but I am relatively new to the Wikipedian community. I disagree with Aquillion that this edit was a mistake, given the long history of similar edits to other journalists and political figures.
Statement by Mhawk10
The J-Post piece is an example of why we have
- I'm seeing that an editor above struck through their comments about the appropriateness of the source. Let me reiterate: I don't think the source should be used in the article for a source of contentious facts. The point of my comment is that talk) 20:33, 24 July 2022 (UTC)]
- Some of the edits highlighted below by talk) 06:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)]
- Some of the edits highlighted below by
Statement by Vladimir.copic
This is a slightly unrelated observation on this editor's recent editing. I note that Philip Cross is indefinitely banned from post-1978 British politics, broadly construed. In the past few weeks this editor has made edits to the following articles that are in the area of this ban (non-exhaustive example diffs below):
- British economist and Brexit advocate Patrick Minford
- environmental movement Extinction Rebellion established in the UK
- British political commentator Nick Cohen
- English journalist Piers Morgan
- British-Polish politician Jacek Rostowski
- British political journalist Paul Mason
- British far-right commentator Paul Joseph Watson
There is nothing wrong with these edits - some of them were needed - but nonetheless they are well within the area of the ban. I have a lot of respect for the work Philip Cross has done on jazz biography and would hate for the project to lose him due to these infringements on his ban (especially in light of last year's block for a topic ban violation). Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- @WP:BMB is pretty clear. The ban is broadly construed and I cannot imagine "post-1978 British politics, broadly construed" not including recently active British politicians and political journalists. Like I said this is not an exhaustive list of difs - PC has made over 20 edits to PJW's article just this year. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)]
- @
Result concerning Philip Cross
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
חוקרת
חוקרת is hereby formally warned that their behavior is on the cusp of sanction, and any future issues in the ARBPIA area will likely result in swift, strong action by an administrator, likely without the benefit of an WP:AE report. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning חוקרת
o not strictly in scope as it took place on the Hebrew project but I dont see why that cant inform action here:
N/A
Ill say, and said, the SPI by Onceinawhile was baseless and if they have a poor success rate in filing SPIs maybe they should take that as an indication that they shouldnt do that. But the response by חוקרת is outrageous, it is nothing but battlefield mentality (eg Eladkarmel on his Hebrew talk page responded to חוקרת's message with The anti-Semitism in the English Wikipedia is simply unbelievable, did I claim racism when people have made false accusations against me?), and it is an abuse of WikiProject Israel to attempt to coordinate against an editor. Sorry Dennis, fixed second diff. As far as premature, I wasnt under the impression that plotting against editors was an acceptable practice, or claiming it to be a "price tag" was either, but ymmv. It wasnt so much that he asked that Once be blocked on the Hebrew Wikipedia, it was calling the attempt to strike back at him a "price tag" that drew my concern. nableezy - 14:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning חוקרתStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by חוקרתUser:Dennis Brown, I did not know where to discuss Onceinawhile's SPI, WikiProject Israel is the first place I go for discussions about Israel, and I suggested there we discuss what to do, because I did not know what to do. I did it in the open, I pinged Onceinawhile. After realizing that consensus in Wikiproject Israel was against any examination, I withdrew and closed the section I opened. I did this five minutes before Nableezy posted on my talk page.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 14:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph1. Israeli editors have been accused at SPI for quite some time, sometimes merely for sharing a timezone, as in this case. 2. This was a baseless accusation. Statement by Iskandar323The original calls for editors on a WikiProject to bandy together to hound another editor were bad; the Hebrew Wiki calls for a 'price tag' of retributive action is worse. Talk about doubling down on a battleground mindset. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2022 (UTC) ]
Statement by SelfstudierI have interacted with this editor at Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022 and recently, at ANI. This is not an entirely unexpected escalation in behavior and in the matter at hand, ample opportunity was given to step back. Having a strong POV is one thing, this is on another level. Selfstudier (talk) 15:25, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by GizzyCatBellaThis doesn't look good indeed .. and to Sr. Joseph - the notorious SPI offenders (Yaniv and Icewhiz) share Israeli timezone unfortunately. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC) Statement by Drsmooחוקרת's request was not acceptable, and I'm glad he withdrew it, that is not what Wikipedia should be. Background/Context: What prompted it (but does not excuse it) was Onceinawhile's baseless SPI. After posting an inaccurate table at the Move Review, and ignoring the direct request (for two days) from the excluded user to be added, he added another column to try to re-bolster his argument, and then started the baseless SP:I and hounding (1, 2, 3) in what seems to me to be an attempt to get a user in the oppose camp removed/disrupt the move review (presumably to bring the balance of the voting back into favor). Now he is musing on whether off-wiki canvassing is acceptable. ARBPIA is fraught enough as it is, and this tendentious editing is very much unhelpful, and definitely shouldn't be reciprocated by anyone. Drsmoo (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC) edited 18:09, 20 July 2022 (UTC) Result concerning חוקרת
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Mr Miles
WP:GENSEX (Gender and sexuality), broadly construed, for an indefinite period of time. This included articles, talk pages, administrative pages, your own talk page, everywhere on the English Wikipedia. Breaches of the restriction will be handled with blocks, up to and including for an indefinite period of time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC) ]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mr Miles
In 2020 and 2022, Mr Miles comes to assigned male at birth to "biologically male".
Other anti-trans edits:
Give that this editor has shown trans-antagonistic editing over multiple years and that they have returned to the same article to make the same disruptive WP:POINTs, I believe a topic ban is warranted. This disruption is not limited to one page, so a partial block on Trans woman would not suffice.
Replies:
Discussion concerning Mr MilesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Mr MilesI merely went to the Talk Page for Trans Women and questioned why the unsourced intro claimed that 'Trans Women are women' (a political slogan), rather than the consensus of reliable sources which is that 'trans women are people assigned male at birth who identify as women'. My understanding is that talk pages are for discussing the relevant article. I was subjected to a barrage of ad hominem by a set of editors gatekeeping a POV. That I made one change to the intro 2 years ago (!!) is hardly evidence of 'disruption'. I also reject the term 'real women' used by the editor of this request for enforcement. And on Michel Foucault - how is this relevant, he wasn't trans? The sources there were of course RS. This request is vexatious
User:Crossroads - I went to the talk page and gave an opinion, how is that 'uncollaborative'? That the editors that have accumulated around this article all share a POV doesn't mean giving a different opinion is disruptive/'trolling'! Isn't that what the talk pages are for? WP:CIV - "Differences of opinion are inevitable in a collaborative project" User:Drmies - The definition of 'whitewashing' is replacing a black person (Whitewashing in film) with a white one - Beachy Head Lady was a white woman as the DNA sampling showed. Unless your claim is the Francis Crick Institute doctored its results to 'whitewash' them - if so, I'd like to see a reference for such an extraordinary claim? Mr Miles (talk) 09:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
User:Dennis Brown I didn't change 'long settled text', I made one edit to the intro 2 years ago (and as I pointed out, that intro had been changed radically from earlier more accurate versions) - how could that be considered 'hateful' in the mind of a reasonable person? Mr Miles (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC) ]
Statement by CrossroadsI support a topic ban. This behavior is uncollaborative, even troll-like, and a detriment to the editing environment. There are constructive ways to suggest changes, and Talk:Trans woman/Definitions shows there are many possible ways to define the topic, but this behavior is uncivil and unacceptable. Crossroads -talk- 02:15, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Statement by DronebogusBehavior at Wp:SEALIONing and purely vexatious (making his accusations of vexatiousness hypocritical). On top of this user doesn’t even seem to have a coherent point and swings between frivolous complaints about word definitions to thinly veiled transphobia. Strongly support topic ban at minimum. Dronebogus (talk) 16:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC) ]
Statement by NewimpartialI agree with Crossroads. To be less succinct, MrMiles has done very little with his account, for more than two years, except to push a POV on gender issues. To wit:
So very much POV, without the slightest fig leaf of contributing (or even participating in the discussion of) sources. I don't really care whether the edits in question were motivated by transphobia; they clearly do not contribute to the development of article content, are accompanied by truly epic amounts of WP:IDONTHEARTHAT, and have repeatedly provoked disruption on more than one Talk page. I favor a topic ban, without which further disruption appears inevitable. Newimpartial (talk) 16:11, 22 July 2022 (UTC) ]
Statement by (username)Result concerning Mr Miles
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Grandmaster
No violation --Guerillero Parlez Moi 17:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Grandmaster
In February 2022 admin Rosguill issued user:Grandmaster an indefinite WP:AA2 topic ban,[147] following this WP:AE case. In May 2022 Grandmaster created this article from scratch[148] which includes this sentence: "After the February Revolution in 1917, Keller was one of the two Russian generals, along with Huseyn Khan Nakhchivanski, who supported the Czar." Per the eponymous article of Huseyn Khan Nakhchivanski: "was a Russian Cavalry General of Azerbaijani origin". The words "Huseyn Khan Nakchivanski" were conveniently added inbetween Grandmaster's expansion of the article by user Brandmeister,[149] a long-time editor of WP:AA2 who has often supported Grandmaster in the past during disputes (one of many recent examples[150]). After Brandmeister inserted these words, Grandmaster immediately edited the article the next day.[151]-[152] The convenience facilitated by Brandmeister is questionable by itself to say the least; however, the fact that they edited the article after Brandmeister's edit knowing that they are topic banned is probably even more problematic in nature. For the record; they were already once given lenience by admin Rosguill right after they were topic banned.[153]
Discussion concerning GrandmasterStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by GrandmasterThis is a frivolous and bad faith report. I observed my topic ban and did not edit any AA related articles. In the meantime, I created an article about WWI era Russian general Fyodor Arturovich Keller, and it became a DYK article, featured on Wikipedia main page. After DYK nomination, it was edited by other users, and one of them added a link to another Russian general, who happened to be of Azerbaijani descent, but I cannot be responsible for edits by other users. I think admins should discourage users from filing such baseless reports. Grandmaster 09:30, 23 July 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username)Statement by AbrvaglThis page has been on my watch list since my involvement in the few AE reports, and I chose to respond here since I saw mention of the issue that was addressed by me. (As a consequence, the BLP violation and the inadequately referenced statements were deleted from the article). Cant see anything problematic with example brought to claim that Brandmeister supports Grandmaster. I believe we should assume the good faith of other editors, particularly in the case where mentioned editor highlighted the genuine BLP problem. Rossguill was given inaccurate information, implying that Grandmaster wrote an article where he referenced Azerbaijani related information without indicating that it was contributed by another editor. I sure that if Rossquill was given complete facts, he would not make such a statement, hence his response where Rossquill literally suggested to take it to the AE for clarification cannot be used as an argument here. The mentioned Fyodor Arturovich Keller article is a good and well sourced article created by Grandmaster, which I believe brings value to the Wikipedia, and, to my knowledge, it is not related to AA2. The statement about Huseyn Khan Nakhchivanski was added to the article on June 10, 2022 by the user Brandmeister, and the next two edits from Grandmaster were not even related to it. I'm not sure if adding that one phrase automatically guarantees that the article now belongs to the AA2 area, or not, but even if so we, considering good faith, should have at least notified Grandmaster with something like "Hey, article on which you working from now on belongs to AA2 area, please retire from it". Having said that, I don't see anything problematic in the indicated diffs and find this report unnecessary. --Abrvagl (talk) 14:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC) Result concerning Grandmaster
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TheLastOfTheGiants
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning TheLastOfTheGiants
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:36, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- TheLastOfTheGiants (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBEE
- Diffsof edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [156] It is clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POVs, while there is no WP:SCHOLARSHIPto the contrary should get doubted.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. [157] of 26 July 2022.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
For the same reasons as Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Cealicuca and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Iovaniorgovan, these are clear and strong precedents.
Why use
Immigrationist theory?
I believe tgeorgescu believes the Immigrationist theory to be the academic consensus
: what I have said above? I said "while there is no
The John Doe is the best baseball player
argument: so? You were trying to fix the wrong section. You now argue that the other section needs fixing.
the statements that don't have reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view
: and which are those statements? Do those statement clearly state "the consensus of scholars is..." or "the majority view is..."? I guess not. Wrong reading of
I stand by my words: "Wrong reading of
Anyway, I find your defense unconvincing: you're getting lost in the shifting sands of your own deeds and arguments. And, above all, I still did not hear the reason why you're in a different position than Cealicuca and Iovaniorgovan.
The facts: in that article there is continuity turf (i.e. a section), immigrationist turf, admigration turf, and neutral turf. On the continuity turf view there is stuff like With the colonists coming from many provinces and living side by side with the natives, Latin must have emerged as their common language.
See? No inline
But see the rest of their edits: they are pushing a nationalistic POV. There are hardly exceptions from this rule. Maybe I was wrong that they are a Romanian nationalist, possibly they are a Vlach or Aromanian nationalist. Cealicuca also supported their pet theory. Or was that Iovaniorgovan? Hard for me to distinguish between the two, except that they sided with different theories. Anyway, all three of them use
About "nationalist": through your edits Hungarians always get the short end of the stick. Besides, statements including In 1875, the government of Prime Minister Tisza intensified...
are blatant copyright violations. It seems that the plagiarism scanner enjoys its summer holiday. Anyway, "nationalist" comes second, Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/TheLastOfTheGiants comes first.
Your lies are puerile at [158]: (not copy-pasted, so no copyright violations)
. Revdel requested at [159]. I was not the first saying it's copyvio: see [160]. My excuse for losing my temper: the most infuriating tactic is complete denial. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning TheLastOfTheGiants
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by TheLastOfTheGiants
- tgeorgescu is a pathological liar and a cheat, only reporting me because he knows he has more experience on Wikipedia and will likely get me banned as the admins will take a "better safe than sorry" attitude. Since there are 2 strong precedents of people being banned out of "better safe than sorry" reasons.
- Let's look at how true his accusations are - "It is clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POV" - can he provide any diffs where I did that? no, he cannot. Because I have never pushed a Romanian nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POV. In fact, here are some cases that prove the opposite [[162]]. All of this that never happened is very "clear" to him mind you.
- A fost his 2nd accusation - "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get lost" - I have never said such a thing, not sure where the "according to them" is from. In fact, I have never talked to tgeorgescu before. It's essentially dishonest, an outright lie. I'm not sure where he has that much "information" given that we never talked. If anything, it's only a projection of tgeorgescu's personal prejudice at best or intellectual dishonesty at worst, trying to make me look bad by putting words into my mouth and claiming I said something I never said. I don't mind being criticized about things I said and done, but I cannot stand people pulling stuff out of their butts. This only goes to show hit rotten character and lack of morals.
- All his intellectual speeches on this profile page are just for show, he doesn't practice what he preach in the slightest but instand acts like a fanatic, full of prejudices, jumping to conclusions and with 0 doubts. If anything, his definitory traits are his grumpiness, big ego and lack of scruples. Please, try to find a good faith explaination for his lie that "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get lost", he knows I never said that thing and can't even be dismissed as an accidental lie. He literally said on this page "I do not know a lot about the history of Romania and I do not pretend to know a lot about it" but at the same time acts like an expect. He is a man of many contradictions between what he is saying and what he is doing.
To simply the issue (so that is understandable for those who don't know the subject).
- We have page (A) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha and page (B) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians
- We have sentence (A) "Piranhas belong to the subfamily Serrasalminae, which includes closely related omnivorous" and sentence (B)"Reliable sources refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube for the first time in the 1160s".
- Without knowing anything about either of those subjects, and looking at those sentences, can you determine which one is general consensus and which one is an individual opinion that is not part of the general consensus?
- Answer: sentence (A) is general consensus, sentence (B) is an individual opinion that is not part of the general consensus.
- (Not my personal opinion, the historians supporting the Daco-Roman Continuity theory supporters believe this, tgeorgescu doesn't seem to deny it either: as I wrote in the "dubious" part that I got reported for - "There are many historians who agree that the Primary Chronicle, Gesta Hungarorum, She Song of the Nibelungs and other mentions of "Vlachs" north of the Danube refer to the Romanians"; the Vlachs being another name for Romanians, and the 3 listed sources are those that refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube before 1160s, which historians such as Ioan-Aurel Pop and Dennis Deletant find reliable, this is not a fringe theory)
- I listed them as "dubious" or "NPOV" in order to discuss them on the talk page. Which if you look at the talk page I did start a conversation there, before getting reported. All the sentences I listed as "dubious" or "NPOV" have this issue, with the contradictory opinion that makes them not general consensus listed in the added "dubious" or "NPOV".
- Adding those "dubious" and "NPOV" where I drew attention that that is not the general consensus, are the reason I got reported, and may get banned for it. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 10:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- I should also point out that tgeorgescu not once tried to talk to me, despite me literally saying "please see the talk page", that's his version of conflict resolution.
- This is not a report because we talked about it and went nowhere, this is a report because on the article in question, there is no inline attribution from the immigrationist turf; however, there is inline attribution from the continuity turf, violating WP:NPOV, tgeorgescu got offended because he is a supporter of the Immigrationist theory and wants the exclusion of all other POVs as much as possible.
- To give context: It is a subject of dispute whether elements of the mixed Daco–Roman population survived in Transylvania through the post-classical era becoming the ancestors of modern Romanians, the Daco-Roman Continuity Theory mainly accepted in Romanian histography, or the first Vlachs/Romanians appeared in the area in the 13th century after a northward migration from the Balkan Peninsula, the Immigrationist theory mainly accepted in Hungarian histography. There is an ongoing scholarly debate over the ethnicity of Transylvania's population before the Hungarian conquest. There is no consensus on this one, but tgeorgescu wants to keep the Immigrationist one appear as the consensus. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning TheLastOfTheGiants
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @TheLastOfTheGiants: Your statement is currently over 4,000 words long. Please shorten it to 500 or fewer. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 21:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Iskandar323
Not actionable. Fad Ariff is warned that continuing to file unactionable reports can lead to sanctions, including disallowing future AE reports to be filed. AE is not for content disputes or actions that can be handled on the talk page, the user talk page, or other venue. AE is the last resort for Arbitration Enforcement only. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Iskandar323
Iskandar323 WP:SYNTH content in the article. The sources in the article don’t support:
1) That the logo in the infobox belongs to this group. 2) That the group was "Left-wing". 3) That its colourcode was "red". 4) That its religion was "Islam". 5) That Parviz Yaghoubi was "a veteran member of the MEK since 1968". 6) That the group was "homonymous" with the PMOI. 7) That People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran – Followers of Musa's Way was a "prominent" group (the opposite seems to be the case). See article talk page where I raised many of these points but Iskandar323 has mostly deflected.
Not that I am aware
Discussion concerning Iskandar323Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Iskandar323A frivolous AE filing about content not discretionary sanctions violations that should boomerang. It is worth noting that Fad Ariff recently raised three AE cases against different editors in 24 hours: [166], [167] and [168] - making clear that they do not appreciate the limited resources available at AE. On the contrary, as I raised at a previous AE case that was ultimately never resolved, Fad Ariff has been guilty of fairly wholesale DS violations, including several breaches of WP:1RR, alongside further evidence of WP:1RR gaming. I would also note Fad Ariff's use of the adversarial language about 'gaslighting' and 'deflection' is all fairly battleground. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC) ]
Statement by FirefangledfeathersEven assuming Fad Ariff is correct about everything in their filing and that all of the parts of Iskandar323's one edit to the article were mistaken, this is still not a matter that needs any sanctions. Iskandar323's clear motivation was to preserve content, including plausibly reliable sources, during an AfD discussion. I haven't looked into Fad Ariff's conduct enough to have an opinion on a boomerang sanction, but I urge a warning, at the least, to ensure that this is their last frivolous filing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Researcher (חוקרת)Is Iskandar323 an admin? Because the user rights on the account don't show this. Iskandar323 placed a Ds/talk notice consensus required notice on the talk page. If Iskandar323 is not a secret admin, then they are very much in the wrong here. Fad Ariff also gave a reason in each of his edits why he remove material like here and here. Iskandar323 gave no reason other than announcing via edit summary that DS notice consensus required applies. Iskandar323 was supposed to check if the sources said what the text said. Again, is Iskandar323 an administrator? Because only administrators are allowed to make this kind of ruling I think. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
My replies above were to posts moved in this edit, therefore indents are doubled.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 14:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Iskandar323
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