Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

As has been shown above, there are multiple off-wiki communities that have engaged in targeted brigading of articles pertaining to the

• Support retract as nominator. —
  talk) 20:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Firstly, while there's evidence of upvoted reddit posts encouraging brigading, this shouldn't itself lead to either semi or 30/500. Is there evidence several wiki pages and discussions have actually and persistently been disrupted, far greater than is the norm in other topics (noting that many topic areas occasionally experience canvassing and brigading and require no such strong measures)? Is there evidence normal community processes (ie ANI and NOTHERE blocks) are unable to handle the excess workload caused by the disruption? If the answer to both these questions suggests further measures are required, I think it'd be better to allow admins to, at their discretion, more freely protect pages they believe are of concern, similar to
  WP:ARBPIA4 doesn't restrict the talk namespace. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Fair point regarding the talk space. My thought was to bring this in line with the
    talk) 00:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Some accounts active in the

• Support as proposer. Tinybubi (talk) 19:35, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what specific data or other non-public information that admins would have access to that would enable an investigation, and I'm also not sure what the scope of an investigation like this would be. Do you mean to suggest a
    sockpuppetry investigation
    , or is there something else you had in mind?

  I'm also not sure that supporting the natural origin hypothesis of COVID-19 (if that is what you mean by the

  talk) 03:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

The user is using 'modern liberal' biased techniques in documents related to American politics in the English Wikipedia. In many cases, he criticized me maliciously to justify such biased technology. (I said I wouldn't edit the US political document for three months because I didn't want to cause trouble with this user. But looking back on my edit, I don't know what the hell I did wrong in contributing to American political page.)

• Although the Blue Dog Coalition is commonly referred to as the "Conservative Democrats" and the Republican Governance Group is generally referred to as the "Liberal Republicans", the user denies it and makes a POV statement. #, #
  • The Blue Dog Coalition page even carried out serious original research. Without any source, the user described that there was a "right-wing" in the organization's "Blue Dog Coalition". I thought this was an obvious original research before, but it was hard to point out that the user was maliciously selling me at the time. See history of page in the last three months.#
  • In addition, while the Republican Governance Group has no source referred to as "moderate conservatism", the user maintains the POV view that the former is right and the latter is wrong, despite numerous sources referred to as "liberal".

In addition, the user lacked a very good understanding of East Asian politics, but he also decided that my editing was inappropriate and reversed it. Still, Beyond My Ken are attacking me for my lack of understanding of American politics. However, I have never used biased techniques in American political page.

• User:Beyond My Ken also twisted my argument and maliciously criticized me in the Talk of Law and Justice page.#
• User:Beyond My Ken interrupted my legitimate Wikipedia editing countless times. #, #, #, etc.)

I think it's actually a threat to a new user, me, to repeatedly mention in Talk that the user will post me on the Administrators' Noticeboard. Although I'm not perfect at editing American political documents, Beyond My Ken has conned me to justify his no source POV contribution. --Storm598 (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond My Ken always threatens to put me on the Administrators' Noticeboard, saying I lack understanding of American politics when Beyond My Ken justifies Beyond My Ken's no source POV views. On the other hand, I have never done this to Beyond My Ken.--Storm598 (talk) 12:06, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Storm598: it says in ultra-large bold writing in a coloured box at the top that you need to notify subjects who you make a thread about. I have dropped BMK a line for you. Please do not forget again, as it clearly indicates you didn't read the instructions before posting Nosebagbear (talk) 12:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is more likely that as Storm598 is banned from BMK's talk page, he did not think he should. Maybe he forgot that notifications required by policy are one of the exceptions. P-K3 (talk) 12:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly what P-K3 said. Thank you for understanding me. I just sent it to BMK's talk.--Storm598 (talk) 13:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting, because when I notified you that I didn't want you to post to my talk page anymore (for reasons that are probably obvious to the readers of this laborious thread), I wrote: ...unless, of course, you are required to by Wikipedia policy. If you are required to post a notice on my talk page, please clearly indicate in the edit summary what policy you are doing so under. [29] Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:00, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Storm598: Why are you posting this complaint? What outcome do you hope to achieve? SPECIFICO talk 13:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: BMK often goes back almost reflexively every time I edit some pages on Wikipedia. Clearly, even if it was my reasonable editing, it is often deleted by BMK's arbitrary judgment. Every time I edit American politics, they keep bothering me that I don't understand American politics and that they'll take issue with my editing on the Administrators' noticeboard. In fact, he mentioned me in the 'Administrators' noticeboard' before, exaggerating or distorting me. I'm not saying that we should sanction BMK within Wikipedia, but please refrain from doing so. I want the BMK to stop denouncing me with Xenophobia. I have a certain understanding of American politics, and BMK often does original research on American politics without sources on some pages. That's why I don't want BMK to branded or interrupt my editing. --Storm598 (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I refer readers back to this discussion from March, in which Storm598 avoided an AP2 topic ban by voluntarily imposing a 3-month "block" on himself, which he later interpreted as a 3-month topic ban from articles about American politics. Nevertheless, he has broken this voluntary TB several times since [30], [31], [32], under the impression, apparently, that the 3 months was over. (Since he imposed it on himself on March 16, it will be over on June 16.)

The essential problem -- reflected in Storm598's editing throughout Wikipedia, not just in the AP2 area -- is that they get their political information from an unnamed South Korean blog, and then uses that information to make changes on a wide variety of article throughout the encyclopedia, most of which concerns who is conservative, moderate and liberal. I'm not familiar with politics outside the US, so I cannot say if their changes to those articles are good or not, but I do know that when it comes to American politics, their definitions do not match up with those in conventional use, and the changes they make are therefore not helpful.

I continue to believe that Storm598 should be under an indefinite AP2 TB until they can show that their understanding of American politics is more grounded in reality than it currently is, but I'm not going to make the case for that. Those who are interested can read the discussion from March, Storm598's talk page, and their contributions to form their own conclusions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I call on Storm598 to provide specific diffs of when I have reverted their edits since March 16, 2021 that did not involve American politics. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:44, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please explain what Storm598 means when they write "The user is using 'modern liberal' biased techniques in documents related to American politics in the English Wikipedia." What are "'modern liberal' biased techniques"? Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is the evidence that I get political information from the South Korean blog? I look for major media outlets in English and South Korea.--Storm598 (talk) 14:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You said it yourself in one of our discussions. I'll dig up the diff. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: "I live in South Korea, the largest Korean wiki classifies the U.S. Democratic Party as a social liberal and social democratic party and the Democratic Party of South Korea as a social liberal and social conservative party." [33] This is the source you cited on Talk:California Democratic Party for making changes to that article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

# Is this what you're looking for? I didn't mention anything about the South Korean blog. For reference, I mentioned the major wiki of South Korea and only once mentioned how South Koreans perceive the California Democratic Party. The California Democratic Party is not considered a centrist at least in the context of U.S. politics, as there are many democratic socialists, and this is what many have pointed out before.--Storm598 (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki/blog, same thing, they're both

self-published sources, and you're clearly taking your views from one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It's not true that I don't understand American politics, it's just that you're blaming me. BMK did the original research without any source just by looking at the 'Republican Governance Group' page or the 'Blue Dog Collaboration' page. I'm not the only wiki user to protest your 'modern liberal' bias statement.--Storm598 (talk) 14:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for describing it as a modern liberal biased technique is simple.

• You claimed part of the Blue Dog was 'right-wing', but you didn't provide the source.
• You did not suggest that the Republican Governance Group is not a liberal or moderate organization, nor did you suggest a moderate conservative organization. On the other hand, I suggested a credible source.

American media and English-speaking academic sources also refer to the Republican Governance Group as "liberalism". Can't American media understand American politics more than BLM, which is just a wiki user?--Storm598 (talk) 14:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is my last comment here, as this is not the place to discuss content disputes. (1) Do not change your comments after they have been replied to except by striking out. (2) We have "articles" on Wikipedia, not "documents". I have told you this numerous times, but like the definition of American liberalism, you refuse to take it in. (3) Please provide a citation from a reliable source which refers to the Republican Governance Group as "liberal", in the American definition.

I think that readers can see the problem with Storm598: they have fixed views which are demonstrably wrong, and will not take in any factual corrections to those views, but instead continue to edit in accordance with those inaccurate views. Their behavior in this discussion shows how frustrating it is to interact with them, which can be verified by looking at their article talk page discussions involving other editors as well as myself. [34], [35]. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't confirm that you responded. So I tried to correct it, but this is my mistake.(1) If RSS is not liberal in the American political context, then Blue Dog is not conservative in the American political context. The Blue Dog's propensity to vote is not much different from the New Democrat Coalition. (3)--Storm598 (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And I think it's certainly malicious that you mentioned the Law and Justice.[36] I made it clear that I thought Law and Justice was a far-right party, but you accused myself of making a biased statement. You also think Law and Justice are anti-liberal far right. I think so too. However, the Law and Justice document did not originally describe the far-right, and in the end, you and I did not disagree.--Storm598 (talk) 15:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"BMK" not "BLM".

You continue to confuse the classical definition of "liberal", by which almost every American politician is a liberal, and the very different definition used in American politics. By that definition, the modern Republican Party -- which used to have an actual liberal wing, more moderate than the Democratic liberal wing, but still verifiably liberal (Rockefeller, Javits etc.) -- no longer has any liberals in it: the furthest to the left it goes on the national level is a handful of moderates. You simply refuse to accept that a "liberal" in the US is not the same as a "liberal" in Europe or elsewhere. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BLM is a typo. I'm sorry about that. I support Black Lives Matter.--Storm598 (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was possibly a reference to the Bureau of Land Management. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 15:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken:The RGG is a clear 'liberal' group. It's just your opinion that there's no 'liberal' in modern Republicans. Many sources call RGG a 'liberal' group, and it's an original research to deny it. Authoritative sources call RSS 'liberal'. I know that the context in which 'liberal' is used in America is different from Europe. In the United States, 'liberal' usually refers to 'modern liberal'. That's why I wrote center-right 'conservative liberal' on purpose. On the other hand, RSS is rarely described as a conservative organization. Therefore, it is the Original Research that calls RSS 'moderate conservatism'.--Storm598 (talk) 15:24, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not only my opinion, but the fact that you think so is a very good indication -- again -- that you really don't comprehend American politics. If this were an article, and I was making a claim to insert into the article, I could find innumerable citations from reliable sources which would back me up, but for the purposes of this discussion I am comfortable that 40 years of closely observing American politics -- not a foreign "wiki" -- tells me that it is the case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am obviously aware of this discussion, please stop pinging me. I have other articles to use my "'modern liberal' biased techniques" on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:06, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is unlikely to be productive, so it would be better not to write "ideology" on infobox. I think we can reach an agreement at this point.--Storm598 (talk) 16:13, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, RGG is still considered a 'liberal Republican'. An organization that is not conservative in general should not be described simply as conservative. It would be better not to write "ideology" at all on the infobox of the Republican Governance Group page as it is now. #, #--Storm598 (talk) 16:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is unlikely to be productive, so it would be better not to write "ideology" on infobox. I think we can reach an agreement at this point.--Storm598 (talk) 16:12, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of your opinion on the proper labels of these groups, what behavioral issue are you raising. Everything here is a content issue and this board does not determine who is right on content. It is not an appeals court or arbitrator or mediator. As far as I can tell, your only complaint is that BMK is telling you you are wrong on American political labels. That is an issue for the

WP:DR process. The First law of holes also applies. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I'd like to add here that I do agree Beyond My Ken's edits in this area seem to display a basic ignorance of American politics. I was absolutely astonished to find that he did, in fact, add "right-wing" as a faction to the Blue Dog Coalition page; for reference, this is the most conservative faction of America's big-tent left-wing party. Right-wing is such a factually inaccurate label for this group that it boggles the mind - it's an astonishing factual error that is made even worse by the fact he did so without a citation and then edit-warred to try and force his change into the article. A similar situation is going on at Republican Governance Group, he straight-up removed several reliably sourced sections in the inbox, incorrectly claiming they were cited to a "Korean blog". This sort of editing has to stop. Toa Nidhiki05 19:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with your assessment. Given BMK's great breadth of knowledge and long experience, I would argue that he displays not a basic ignorance of American politics as you claim, but rather a mastery of the topic area. The Blue Dog coalition is accurately characterized as the right-wing of the Democratic Party. The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies described it as such in their publications, as only one example. This is like calling the old Rockefeller Republicans the left-wing of the Republican Party (according to the 1985 political science book Psychological Perspectives on Politics). The more important question here, is why anyone could possibly view this as erroneous or controversial. BMK appears to know the topic and is editing based on a plethora of good sources. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's similar to the situation with the Strasserites. The Strassers were not leftists in any absolute sense, but they did represent the "left-wing" of the Nazi Party; that is, the left-most portion of an entirely far-right movement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Republican Party is not on par with the Nazi Party. RSS, far from advocating totalitarianism, has a social and cultural liberal orientation. Strassism is basically against liberalism.--Storm598 (talk) 22:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OMG!! That was an analogy about relative positions within political parties, not a comparison of the Republican Party (or the Democratic Party, which Viriditas also mentioned) with the Nazis. Do we have a CIR problem here?!

In any event, my mistake. I was fooled by Viridtas' comment into thinking that there might be some rational discussion breaking out. Outta here again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know exactly what you mean by bringing up the Nazi party. However, One Nation Conservatives (caucus) and Moderates (Liberal Party of Australia) pages mention "social liberalism" in addition to "conservative liberalism" or "liberal conservativeism" in the book Infobox. Similarly, what is the problem with referring to coservative "liberalism" in the infobox of RSS pages? Strassism is fascism, not socialism. However, RSS is a liberal organization. --Storm598 (talk) 22:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As noted below, this the administrators' noticeboard, it's not a place for general discussion of a topic, or the details of a content dispute. Please stop debating political science on this noticeboard. Please address Specifico's request for specifics about what you want to accomplish. Acroterion (talk) 00:56, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think BMK is ignorant of American politics. I just think BMK is making biased descriptions in 'some' pages, not 'all'.--Storm598 (talk) 21:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Storm598 seems to be entering AP post-1932 TB territory. This is a timesink. Miniapolis 22:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comments at the previous ANI discussion, I think it needs to be broader. The issues extend to East Asian politics. -

talk 23:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Ryk72: Pace Toa Nidhiki05's remark above‎, after 40 years of close observation, I'm pretty conversant with American politics, but I know little about the politics of East Asia. Can you describe Storm598's behavior in that subject area? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Well I think Storm is being a bit AP post-1932 TB, don't you think? SlightSmile 00:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Broadly the same issues that are evident in the AP2 area - engaging in OR, particularly with respect to categorisation & infobox contents. The addition of Cat:Identity politics in Japan is not necessarily harmful, just bizarre.[38] But there's also this, categorising a WW2 era Japanese politician as "fascist", when the article describes him in rather more moderate terms.[39] And this, adding "far-right" with neither source nor support in the article text.[40] The addition of a handful of cats, including "far-right" to a Thai political party here,[41], while also acknowledging that the sourcing doesn't exist.[42] Not isolated to "far-right", there's also additions and removals of "left-wing activist" here; again without sourcing or supporting text.[43][44][45] And these changes to a British Labour Party politicians are justified entirely by OR or personal viewpoint.[46][47] And these additions of "Anti-Zionism in South Korea", a new category created by Storm598, are just bewildering.[48][49] These additions to a Korean political party are unsourced OR.[50]; no justification is provided for this removal.[51]. This, to Kuomintang, is based on OR.[52] It's actually hard to find an edit in the broader politics topic which isn't pushing a personal POV or original research. -

talk 07:05, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Enough with the sniping and content arguments, please. Acroterion (talk) 23:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let me try my hand at a reset. Here are what I think are the salient points:

• Storm598 came here with complaints about me which seem to boil down to his perception that I am using "'modern liberal' biased techniques" in my editing, but -- at least as I see it, although I'm clearly not neutral -- what he means by that is pretty vague, and he hasn't really made a very strong case for it, nor has he said what outcome he wants from filing the report. If I'm wrong, and he has indeed made a compelling case against me, then I should be appropriately sanctioned -- whatever that would be -- but if I'm correct that his evidence is less than convincing, then as the accuser with the onus to prove his charge, his case against me should be dropped.

• On the boomerang side, I see in Storm598's editing a fundamental lack of understanding of American politics, which manifests itself in mischaracterizations which are based on non-American political criteria inapplicable in an American context. On top of this he does not follow proper sourcing requirements, shoving in new information on top of existing citations which do not directly support the new descriptors as they are required to do. (See here) These are not new problems, they are continuations of the situation described in a discussion in March when Storm598 narrowly avoided an AP2 topic ban by voluntarily banning himself from the subject for three months, a ban he has broken twice since then. [53], [54], [55]

I think that is the core of this thread. Unfortunately, most of the bazillion other bytes of text are not directly relevant to these two points. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:01, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I talked about AP2 topic ban for 3 months is because you bullied me. You've interrupted a number of legitimate edits that I have nothing to do with American politics. In addition, I said so emotionally because I was unable to participate in the debate because my mental health was seriously deteriorated at the time. But as I said above, the descriptions you made in some of the American political papers, including the Blue Dog, have not always been universal. When there was an editorial dispute on the page related to American politics, I always wanted to open a talk and solve it through dialogue. I have never made a major misstatement in American political documents. Do you think I don't know how the concept of 'liberal' is used in America? I just think that simply writing down RSS as 'moderate conservatism' can give political bias to those who read it. If RSS is not liberal, then BDC cannot be considered conservative. I certainly think that some of Beyond My Ken's political pages skills are biased.--Storm598 (talk) 01:15, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that only the same words will be repeated anyway, so I will stop the argument here any more. --Storm598 (talk) 01:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably not very useful to you to make charges such as that I "bullied" you into doing something, when anyone can read the March discussion [56] and see that you were clearly heading toward a AP2 TB or worse, which is not something I can do by myself, but requires the Wikipedia community to enact. I never asked you to voluntarily do anything, I came to the community asking for action about your behavior, and the community was responding to that request. You may see that as "bullying", but it's how problem editors are dealt with here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

Because of a failure in

re: expanded politics topic ban. I proposed what seemed the minimum effective measure to address the current disruption. I think that this already represents a last chance for

Ryk72's expanded proposal, however. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

for accuracy's sake, I also note that Storm has claimed to retire from enwiki. Given the lack of follow-through on previous claimed self-imposed restrictions, I think there is a need for a definitive sanction in case they unretire. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support "modern liberal biased techniques" pretty much says it all. Storm598 should find something else to edit. --RegentsPark (comment) 01:43, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support community-imposed topic ban from post-1992 American politics, broadly construed, notwithstanding any additional sanctions which may be considered in other subject areas. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:52, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Just noting that the starting point for DS AP2 was changed from 1932 to 1992 (here) so it would seem to make sense that a community-imposed AP2 TB would use the same starting point. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Reyk72's expanded TB as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as part of a community imposed topic ban from Politics (broadly construed). -
  talk 07:08, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support at the minimum, and I also support Ryk72's broader ban, because I fear that the problematic editing will be transferred to the politics of other nations. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 14:47, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support the broader ban, per Ryk72's analysis. Quite a few simply odd edits, in addition to the ones that shouldn't be made without appropriate sourcing. I don't see evidence above that this need for sourcing is well-understood. CMD (talk) 16:03, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Abstain I'm not in favor of culling one or two members from the herd to sanction when there are a multitude of "bad actors" in a particular topic area. I'm not seeing any
  assume that Storm598 is being deceptive in his intent to leave the topic area. So no, I can't support this as written at this time. — Ched (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Ched The fact that Storm598 came out of his "retirement" three days after writing "I'm not coming back to Wikipedia again" in order to post the comments below is why it's appropriate to think that he has no intention of leaving the AP2 topic area. He did exactly the same thing the last time he was challenged, said he was giving up and going away, then came back to voluntarily take on a 3-month AP2 topic ban, only to break it well before the 3 months were over. I really do not believe anything that Storm598 says he is going to do, and would prefer to go by his actions in the past, and now again right here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:29, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• And in those comments below, Storm598 admits to sockpuppetry in order to avoid sanctions both in April and now, in June, with User:파란만장. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:38, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support American politics topic ban, Oppose broader ban. There's an awful lot of ABF going on assuming that editing issues with APOL will transfer to other countries; we should give Storm enough
  WP:ROPE to still edit politics of other countries.Jackattack1597 (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• I just want to note that, according to Reyk72, it's not a question of whether Storm598's disruptive editing will spread outside of the AP2 area, but that his editing there is as bad as it is in American politics; so there's no ABF involved. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:02, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support American politics topic ban, at minimum, on both competence and disruptive editing grounds. And no, despite what Ched says, there are not "multiple bad actors" here, there'S really only one. --Calton | Talk 13:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Abstain - per Ched. Blue Dogs might be "the right wing of the Democrats" but that doesn't mean it should be listed as "right wing" in the infobox, as in "the right wing of American politics." Blue Dogs are commonly described as fiscally conservative Democrats (eg see WaPo) and thus the right wing of that party, but not as "right wing" in the same way as, say, Donald Trump or Breitbart or something like that. The OP's report is valid: there was actual edit warring to include unsourced and incorrect information, and uncivil edit summaries to boot. I think the OP's complaint is valid and the boomerang is not. If there is some long term problem with Storm, let's see some diffs and a real report. Levivich 16:01, 1 June 2021 (UTC) Updated !vote. Levivich 01:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Please keep comments on-point and do not attempt to litigate content issues. If you want a diff, look at the opening of Storm's statement here which is a clear personal attack. The rest of this thread should amply serve as needed evidence without bureaucratic contortions. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:27, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  there was actual edit warring to include unsourced and incorrect information, and uncivil edit summaries to boot is about conduct, not content, and please don't imply I !voted without reading this thread. No, it does not serve as ample evidence supporting a sanction, not in my view. Levivich 18:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support one-way IBan; weakly oppose Topic Ban from
  talk) 03:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• An IBan is not under consideration since it's not responsive to the situation presented -- but, in any case, whom do you propose to ban and in what direction? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @
  talk) 23:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• OK, thanks for the explanation. I do not see that Storm598's interactions with me are the base problem here, instead the concern is about their editing to articles, specifically in the American politics subject area, but also in other areas as well. An interaction ban will not solve this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I just wanted to point out that nothing Storm598 writes about his intentions concerning editing Wikipedia can be trusted. He "retired" three days ago, and now he posts it again, with the edit summary "Now it's really retired," [57] as if we're supposed to believe him now that he really, really means it. So when he writes "I'm not coming back to Wikipedia again. I won't even create another account", [58] we can be pretty sure that he'll be back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• And again he changes his intentions [59]. Also,
  WP:NOTTHERAPY. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• And now he's removed "retired". [60] Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Originally, I didn't want to answer, but I'll answer this before I leave. The reason why I deleted "retired" is because it can cause regulatory problems. Because as you said last time, I remembered that I couldn't "retire". But I'm not editing Wikipedia any more this year. I don't want you to misunderstand me as a destructive editing. If you don't believe it, watch from now on.--Storm598 (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I never told you that you couldn't retire. Please provide the diff of where you think I said that. In point of fact, you have "retired" -- either with a template or otherwise, and twice now in the midst of sanctions being considered against you -- a number of times, and each time you return to editing within a short period of time. That's called
  WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:15, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Support american politics topic ban. I say we wait to see how that goes before considering a one way IBan. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:51, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a reason why I am convinced that this is discrimination against new users.

One of the things I say when I doubt myself is that I'm a new user. To be honest, I have a reason to be sure that I am discriminated against because I am a new user.

I used to be active on another account for about 3 years.(User:삭은사과) Then, in September last year, I completely quit editing Wikipedia in October because I was on the verge of spreading my real name and personal information on other sites. And I created this account last December.

When I first started editing on Wikipedia in 2017, there were a few disputes, but since then, people haven't really taken issue with my editing. (Of course, at this time, I was more likely to source, and I didn't edit as many US political documents as I do now.)

Would my editing have been this suspicious if I had been on the 삭은사과 account since October last year? I was a 'verified user' back then. I have also received Barnstar from Korean Wikipedia.# Obviously, the atmosphere of 2017 or 2018 was not so exclusive to 'new users'. Am I wrong?

I would also like to refute some of the claims that I am doing OR.

• Adding corporatism to Kuomintang's pages' infobox is a violation of Wikipedia:Verifiability. There is not enough evidence to suggest that current Kuomintang pursues corporatism.
• Hideki Tojo and Fumimaro Konoe are representative leaders of the fascist-centered "Axis powers," and there is an academic controversy over whether totalitarianism in the Japanese Empire was fascism in the late 1930s and 1940s. I'm not the only one who put the fascist category in that page.
• Some say that I made an OR in American political pages, but in that sense, there is a reason why I don't hold Beyond My Ken responsible for making an OR in Blue Dog and other U.S. political pages. That's because Beyond My Ken is a person who has been using Wikipedia for a long time, not a "new user". Also, I often used Talk on many pages.

Of course, the current situation was so unfair that I created a new account and edited Wikipedia. This is my fault because it is a clear attempt to evade sanctions. # I'm sorry.

But I honestly don't think there's been a big OR in American political documents. If I'm going to label BDC's ideology as conservatism because many of the disputes in Wikipedia are called Republican Governance Group as "liberal Republicans" and Blue Dog Coalition as "conservative Democrats", then I'm just at odds with Beyond My Ken over the view that RGG's ideology should be labeled liberal. To be honest, I think I'm being treated as an unfair bias because I'm a new user. This is not an OP, just a difference of opinion.

I'm really going to say something as I really leave now. A large number of English Wikipedia users has certainly become quite exclusive compared to the past. I doubt the new user Be bold first. At this rate, I'm sure there will be fewer users editing English Wikipedia in the future.I'm sick and tired of this form.--Storm598 (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm genuinely sorry you feel this way, but you really have to approach English Wikipedia, at least, as a giant collaborative project, and that means with humility. People will disagree, and very few subjects are truly susceptible to logical proofs. If I could offer some advice, take a break and come back with the mindset to persuade. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Storm598: Your previous account, User:삭은사과 was active for 4 years and 4 months, with 3,389 edits. Your current account has been active for 5 months with 1,347 edits. Throw in the nine edits from your sockpuppet account User:파란만장, and in total you have edited for 4 years and 9 months with 4,745 edits. You are in no way, shape or form a "new editor".
  And, yes, to answer your question, if you had continued to edit with your first account, and you had made exactly the same edits you made as Storm598, my response would have been the same. Bad editing is bad editing, period. I would have said to 삭은사과 the same thing I wrote to you in my very first comment on your talk page: "I would suggest that you re-evaluate your editing," something that you still haven't done. [61] Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstood what I said, so I'm going to say this for the last time. That's right. I'm not a new user. But the reason you treat me like this is because you recognized me as a new user. Today, I revealed for the first time that I used to work under the account of '삭은사과'. Now that it's already happened, you're just trying to keep going. But if I hadn't created an account called Storm598 at all, and had used the account I'd been using since the beginning, you'd be much less suspicious of my editing. Don't you understand what I'm trying to say? --Storm598 (talk) 01:49, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't need to reveal that I had previously been on an account called 삭은사과 and I just said it, even though it was against me. The Wikipedia atmosphere has certainly become exclusive from a few years ago. I wanted to make this clear to you.--Storm598 (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In short, direct words: you are wrong. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:44, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There is a huge leap from "Wah! I didn't get my way! Call Whine One One! I need a Wahmbulance!!" to "I am being discriminated against". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:57, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I admit that I was ignorant of American politics.

I couldn't even understand why Elizabeth Warren was called "liberal" instead of "social democratic".(Of course I've never edited Elizabeth Warren page at all.) In South Korea, Elizabeth Warren is perceived as a social democratic or "radical left-wing". In fact, in South Korea, center-left media also report Elizabeth Warren as a "radical left-wing".# Even major American liberal media have likened Elizabeth Warren to social democracy.# South Korea prefers state intervention more economically than the United States, but most political forces, including the center-left social democratic Justice Party, are negative about the dismantlement of Chaebol or financial reform.(Of course, South Korea's Justice Party is advocating chaebol reform.) Perhaps if a politician like Elizabeth Warren appeared in South Korea, he would be considered more leftist than the usual social democracy in South Korea.

I realized that the investigation "liberal" used in the United States was very American exceptional. In American politics, "liberal" is a very vague rhetoric, which is called "liberal" in the international sense of Barack Obama, but even progressives like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren call it "liberal." Outside the United States, however, there are views that people close to social liberalism, such as Tony Blair, are "social democracat," which in many ways confuses me. (Tony Blair is not as radical as Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, but rather compared to Bill Clinton. The third way.)

I have now somewhat understood why it is awkward to describe RGG as 'liberal' in the context of American politics. I still lack knowledge of American politics, and I need to study more. I now agree that I need a ban for at least a period of time on the American political page.

However, if so, I still have some questions about editing BMK. I still don't understand how RSS is described as a moderate conservative organisation. Similarly, the Blue Dog is not a right-wing in the general sense of American politics. (example: Rockefeller Republicans are left-wing in the Republican Party, but they are not left-wing by national political standards.) Some of the other users also took issue with editing BMK. Especially in the case of Blue Dog, there was a user who took issue with editing BMK even if it wasn't me. Did I misunderstand this part, too? I hope that the Administrators will also consider this when considering sanctions against me. As mentioned above, there was also a clear problem with BMK editing some pages.(Of course, I 'agree' with BMK's recent proposal to label the Republican Governance Group as "Political moderate".#)--Storm598 (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is not to explain that I see Elizabeth Warren as a social democrat, but that some 'liberals' in the United States, such as Elizabeth Warren, are perceived differently from the general meaning of 'liberal' in other countries. I don't think Elizabeth Warren is a social democrat. In many countries, 'liberal' is often referred to as a centrist, unlike 'liberal' in the American context.--Storm598 (talk) 23:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on US politics either, but I'm pretty sure that politics is not on the high school syllabus over there. That means that many don't even have the background knowledge to engage in such discussions. It also means that some will turn to Wikipedia for explanation. We need to be aware that where the political "centre" lies will differ greatly from country to country and should therefore be avoided where possible and carefully defined where not. We also need to use terms like "liberal" and "socialist" with great precision, even if it means that American readers are surprised that liberals are right of centre in many countries. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even ideologies that are not political positions may have different meanings. Liberals in South Korea will not be considered liberals in the United States. They are more of a center-right or right-wing in American political standards socially and culturally. For example, there are quite a few liberals in South Korea who oppose homosexuality(Example: #, #, #), not same-sex marriage, which in the United States would be considered simple conservatism, not moderate conservatism. South Koreans think American liberalism is different from their own. American liberalism is an American exceptional concept, which is not perfectly consistent with 'centrist liberal' in the international concept. In particular, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are "liberal" in the American political context, but there are social democratic elements beyond social liberalism on international standards. --Storm598 (talk) 00:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elizabeth Warren has some aspects that go against social democratic principles, but there is a point where Warren is hardly considered a "centrist liberal" in international terms. In particular, Warren's views on exchange rates or free trade are hardly considered "liberal" in the general international sense. The center-left media in South Korea mentioned above also reported that Warren has put forward radical left-wing policies, including a pledge to manipulate the exchange rate. This view is never called "liberal" or "social liberal" in South Korea. --Storm598 (talk) 00:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I mentioned the major wiki of South Korea last time was only to inform that American politicians and political forces are actually classified differently in South Korea, not to base them on the major wiki of South Korea. In South Korea, Warren is actually seen as a social democrat. Warren is a CPC-linked figure in the first place, so it may not be just wrong to see Warren as a social democrat. Of course I don't think of Warren as a social democrat. What is certain is that "liberal" is used internationally in much the same sense as "centrist", so South Korea's social liberal is much more conservative than the US's "liberal". This is because the concepts themselves are completely different. As mentioned above, Warren is considered quite radical left-wing or similar to himself among the center-left (mainly social democrats) in South Korea. The American 'liberal' is certainly not a centrist 'liberal' in international sense.--Storm598 (talk) 01:13, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I said I needed to study more about American politics. Internationally, some Rockefeller Republicans or moderate Republicans can be considered conservative liberals. (In particular, liberal conservatism, a sub-division of conservative liberalism, is used in many countries in a similar sense to moderate conservatism.) However, it is inappropriate to call the center-right conservative because the mainstream right is called conservative and the mainstream left is called "liberal" in American political standards. However, I did not see the RGG as a general conservative organization and did not see the BDC as a general right-wing, so I was only opposed to BMK's new editing.(This I think BMK has frankly done OR. I think administrators should consider this, even if they ban editing my American political page for a period of time.) However, applying the concept of 'liberal' outside the American to pages related to United States politics can cause a lot of confusion, and I think there is plenty of room for OR. I admit that I did OR on this part. My editing was mistaken in many ways because American liberalism means 'social liberalism' and 'progressivism', not general 'centrist' liberalism.--Storm598 (talk) 02:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly off topic, but politics is definitely required as part of the high school curriculum in most states - at least, we had a year of American history in 11th grade followed by a semester on American Government. Whether it is comprehensive enough is another question. -- Rockstone^{[Send me a message!]} 05:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, some of you may think that what I'm saying here is OR. However, I explained how 'liberal' in the United States is perceived outside the United States. Since the concept of "liberal" in the United States is an American exceptionalist concept, it is my OR that attempts to apply and edit the concept of "liberal" in the international sense in American political documents. I think it's my fault that I created something like "Category:Liberalism in the Republican Party (United States)". I'm going to log out of Wikipedia after this time, and I'm going to find out how American political are described. I'm sorry.--Storm598 (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to quit editing English Wikipedia for a long time, but I broke my promise last time, so you might not believe me easily, and I wrote this long article to explain my editing. Once again, I'm sorry. My mental health has deteriorated so I'm going to block access to English Wikipedia on my phone and computer (I didn't block access to English Wikipedia last February).--Storm598 (talk) 02:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I retract the word that I will block access to English Wikipedia. However, I will not edit the English Wikipedia for a while and just read it.--Storm598 (talk) 21:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Call for close

• I think that there more than sufficient evidence at this point -- much of it in their own words -- for an uninvolved admin to make a determination as to whether a sanction should be imposed on Storm598, either a community AP2 topic ban or a community ban against editing anything related to politics. Or no sanction at all, of course. I would recommend that the closer read closely everything from the #Reset section on down, and also look at the March discussion [62].

Obviously, if there's sufficient evidence and community support for a sanction against myself, that should be considered as well, but it's certainly time to wrap this up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:07, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• If possible, I would like to have a ban with a fixed deadline rather than a permanent one. Please consider that I didn't cause such a big problem when I was working on another account(삭은사과) until last year, but rather made productive edits. (Examples: #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, #, enc.) I acknowledge that the edits I have made over the months on this account(Storm598) may not be productive or OR. It's because my mental health has deteriorated this year. I'll log out until my mental health is restored. I'll try not to cause this problem when I get back to Wikipedia next year.(When this is over, I won't edit Wikipedia pages this year, but I'll just read them.) --Storm598 (talk) 21:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If possible, please give me a topic ban with a fixed deadline. Or please block Wikipedia for about a 1 year(365 days) until I recover my mental health without topic ban. Please don't do a permanent topic ban.--Storm598 (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Recently, my mental health has deteriorated a lot, and now I really feel that I shouldn't edit Wikipedia this year. But I want you to give me a 'chance'. I personally suffered a very terrible incident this year and had a problematic editing, but my mental health will be fully restored by the second half of next year. I'm sorry.--Storm598 (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Are you saying that you agree to a 1-year ban from editing English Wikipedia? Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• That's right, but on the condition that administrators don't do AP2 ban on me. I'll continue reading Wikipedia, but I'd rather not edit it for my current mental health. The irrational behavior that I've been doing in English Wikipedia recently is related to my mental health problems.--Storm598 (talk) 22:55, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I'm very shy to see what I said a few days ago today. I think I had a lot of positive prejudice against American politics and society because South Korean society is quite conservative in minority human rights issues and I suffered serious discrimination in South Korea as an LGBT. In this situation, I think I've lost my reason this year because I've been through something very bad. (however, when editing South Korean political pages, it did not reflect my OR view.) For many complex reasons, I have not been rational in many ways this year. I think I need to take a long break.--Storm598 (talk) 23:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you going to stop editing or not? If your mental health is a concern, you should stop and disengage - period. Wikipedia cannot operate in that capacity on your behalf. WaltCip-(talk) 12:43, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the edits in the accounts that I stopped using before I created this account, you will honestly feel that the edits in the current account are very poor in quality compared to those in the previous account. From the end of last year to the beginning of this year, I had a terrible experience that I could not say publicly. Including cyber stalking damage on SNS. My mental health condition is very poor now. It's worse than last year.--Storm598 (talk) 22:55, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm opposed to this attempt by Storm598 to craft his own sanction under his conditions. If he had agreed to a straight one-year site ban, I thought that could be an OK compromise, but once he started making demands, I think that shows that his offer was not at all serious. His attempt to negotiate a sanction is what he did back in March -- and here we are again. My feeling is that if sanctions are placed on him, they should be indefinite, and he can request they be lifted after a year. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Beyond My Ken. I would also be OK with letting them request an unban after six months instead of a year but the chances of it succeeding are roughly 0% so IMO there is no real difference. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Summary - The proposal for sanctions against Storm598 has been open since May 31, or 12 days. Without dealing with strength of argument, just looking at the numbers, I see:

• 7 supports for an AP2 ban, 1 weak oppose
• 4 support for an all politics ban, 1 oppose
• 2 abstentions
• 1 one-way interaction ban for Storm529

• Can an uninvolved admin please assess and close?

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:44, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.