Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 8

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Better is Mercenaries, they fight for money. [1] 31.223.129.123 (talk) 07:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

It is difficult to distinguish a volunteer from a mercenary. Many of them may be motivated both ideologically (here, I am using the word "ideologically" not as a dysphemism but as a simple descriptor) and financially. 2A02:AB04:2AB:700:8D61:81BA:EEA7:6F54 (talk) 07:26, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

That is mixing up two things. The article mentions Ukraine’s international legion, and if you pay attention you’ll see that is not the same as the mercenaries the article is about. —Michael Z. 20:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

All mercenaries are volunteers, technically. Juxlos (talk) 05:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

An update to Russian losses is available at:

https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/ukraines-military-over-12000-russian-troops-have-been-killed-since-feb-24/

Jan Vlug (talk) 08:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Thanks for sharing, but please read Q3 of the FAQs at the top of this page. P1221 (talk) 11:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest stating whether the fatalities are civilians or military. The table above shows both and it is unclear in the referred to table. KD0710 (talk) 15:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I would support the suggestion, do you have a source that specifies that? Dario DeCasseres (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The article currently says 16,000 volunteers, while the

I think the numbers are a bit weird because there seems to be a blending between those who volunteer, and those who fight. Anyone, including you and I, can volunteer but that doesn't make us combatants, to my mind to be a combatant you have to show up to Ukraine, get an AK and go fight. So I see some sources that say physically present, and others that say 'volunteer'. Beyond that I think it needs better attribution, because all the attributions so far are according to the foreign ministry. But 16,000-20,000 troops is a lot, it's 10%-15% of Russia's invasion force so you'd think that they'd be a little more visible to foreign correspondents. Alcibiades979 (talk) 18:47, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe it's 16,000 accepted volunteers? I don't imagine volunteers from the US or UK have had time to arrive at the frontlines. Juxlos (talk) 05:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

16000 was the latest (claimed) addition of volunteers as it was at that date. It never really represented the total number of volunteers present in the Ukraine as there were people there long before this. (All the way back to 2014) Now, the supposed addition might be closer to 20000 yes though the total number of volunteers is still effectively unknown - as is how many of these are actually volunteering as fighters. And obviously, the number can grow or shrink suddenly (from new ones arriving to many going home) There really shouldn't have been an attempt at listing a given number of volunteer fighters in the infobox, it was always going to be wrong in one way or another. 95.197.63.71 (talk) 20:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

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91.214.228.26 (talk) 15:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Title should also be referred to as “Putins’ War”

Sources? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. CMD (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

• 
  Destroyed homes in Kyiv
• 
  Bombardment of the Kyiv TV Tower
• 
  Destroyed homes in Kharkiv

I think it might be a good idea to replace the destroyed Kyiv apartment building infobox image with the bombardment of the Kyiv TV Tower on 1 March, because then the images will show the Russian attempts to disrupt communication along with how they have destroyed civilian homes in Ukraine. I initially thought about replacing the destroyed homes Kharkiv image with it, but then I think that would make the infobox only feature Kyiv-specific images. BlueShirtz (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

How about some dead children? That would be more to the point. EEng 07:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

fair point BlueShirtz (talk) 15:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

mmm I do not know. so far it appears that only that transmitter has been attacked. it seems that communications (TV, radio, telephone, internet, etc.) continue to function even in the disputed or occupied territories. correct me if i'm wrong.

Now, about the image of the infobox, comparing the images on the infobox of the articles "Iraq War" and "2003 invasion of Iraq", and the one used in this article, it seems to be an intention in the selected images to concentrate in drama, when these mentioned were superior in this aspect and the images mostly show combat operations or related. 152.207.223.95 (talk) 22:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I realize that now, I think the infobox should probably be left as is. BlueShirtz (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Acc. to Western officials (3 March): Acc. to United States (8 March):

Isn't the United States technically speaking a Western Country? It's like saying the European Union said whatever then France or Spain said whatever else. Shouldn't it just be Western Officials, like merge US with Western Officials? Not questioning the numbers of casualties and losses...just how it is presented.

I have no idea how to merge things on here so hence I am asking.

MiroslavGlavic (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Western officials also includes Western Europe. I think it's fine.KD0710 (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Like KD0710, Western officials includes Western Europe as well (Central as well at this point), so distinctive from an exclusively US claim and should stay as it is for now. But the figure, compared to new ones presented by the US, is starting to seem an overestimation and also slowly becoming out-of-date. At one point, in a week perhaps, it should be removed since we can expect newer figures will be readily available. EkoGraf (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I think it should stay at least for now. I think the only people who have a solid grasp on Russian dead are Russia's military leadership, past that we see a range of estimates. We also don't know the criteria that goes in to these estimates, it could very well be that the US' recent ones are conservative like the UN has been doing for civilian dead. I did see an independent report came out today that was published in the New York Times which places material losses for the Russians at 980 Armored Vehicles including over 140 tanks, which is pretty much in line with Ukrainian estimates. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

The most recent statement from the Ukrainian MoD also states they killed 12000 soldiers, not that there were 12000 casualties as the Infobox says. Important distinction considering casualties include a lot more than just killed soldiers. Should be changed to 12000 killed to more accurately reflect the post by the Ukrainian MoD. Hunterius8 (talk) 03:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

How about Equipment losses acc. to Russia .. ? Is there a more recent figure? I don't think that has been updated since the very first days of the conflict. Do Russia not claim any more equipment losses than this (which seems kind of unlikely seeing as these were early losses) or have they simply not bothered to present any new figures at all? 95.197.63.71 (talk) 20:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

In the casualties section, the row for civilian deaths as per the UN is represented as a flat number, whereas the UN documents that appear to be the source (such as this one) make it fairly clear that the UN believes there have likely been many more civilian deaths, and the number they give is only the number of deaths that they have been able to corroborate. The page should probably list the number (as I'm writing this, it's 516) as a minimum, e.g. "516+". — Preceding unsigned comment added by TradeJmark (talk • contribs) 05:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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Please add into See also in the subsection "Censorship and propaganda" the link to the article Russia under Vladimir Putin. K8M8S8 (talk) 17:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Personally not sure this adds more value. We already link to Putinism, and more specific articles like Media freedom in Russia. We already have too many see also links in this article IMO. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. CMD (talk) 15:54, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

https://fox8.com/news/us-embassy-calls-russias-power-plant-attack-a-war-crime/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIt%20is%20a%20war%20crime%20to%20attack%20a,and%20briefly%20raised%20fears%20of%20a%20nuclear%20disaster. Might be a little biased but it conveys the information. (But than again, who isn’t on this matter?)

Sadly, we can't call it a war crime unless RS do. Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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Please update the infobox with Ukraine's claimed inflicted losses: https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1501824458608230400/photo/1 P4p5 (talk) 14:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. CMD (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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Add Ukraine supported by nato to the belligerents graph. Saddam Hussein.101 (talk) 17:23, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Do we have any mainstream media reports on which of

They do not care and they do not consider this as a contradiction. Both perfectly know they are lying. I do not expect any consequences for them.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Quite. I heard this on the news today and my immediate reaction was that this simply adds to the

Phil Bridger (talk

) 19:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

This is not the place for speculation. Slatersteven (talk) 18:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"… on 24 February 2022, in a major escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian War that began in 2014 following Russia's annexation of Ukraine. It is the largest conventional military attack in Europe since World War II excluding The Hungarian Revolution of 1956." 222.167.176.35 (talk) 18:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. BSMRD (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That’s very likely wrong. About 31,500 invaded Hungary (the UN estimated 75,000–200,000), while around 175,000–190,000 are estimated to have entered Ukraine, so far (not to mention tens of thousands of Russian military already in Crimea and the eastern Donbas). However, the much larger Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia is a potential candidate. —Michael Z. 19:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

The claim for "largest conventional military attack since WW2" seems to originate with the USG. Perhaps they didn't consider the invasion of Czechoslovakia an attack/invasion in the "proper" sense (whatever that might be) as I understand there was little fighting (in fact, that article is interesting reading because the way that was done sounds a lot like the attack on Ukraine except Ukraine defended itself), which of course would be a bit odd. Perhaps we ought to change it to "largest conventional war" for accuracy.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Phiarc (talk • contribs)

Good point. I see two of the cited references refer to the biggest “ground war” and “military assault,” which do not exactly describe the invasion of Czechoslovakia. (Just compare the losses in the respective infoboxes.) —Michael Z. 19:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

RFC/REVIEW

Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox/sandbox

Please consider these numerous format changes to to the info-box as it is currently difficult to follow on a small screen and I currently can't test this on fullsize desktop

GSMC(Chief Mike) Kouklis U.S.NAVY Ret. ⛮🇺🇸 / 🇵🇭🌴^⍨talk 19:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

It's too wide on desktop. Do you have a list of changes you've made? This would make it easier to review. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be an exorbitant of see also and further information links. It really clogs up the article. Obviously, some are needed, but I would suggest slimming it down.

I suggest removing:

• Colour revolution - Covered in Orange Revolution Link
• Russian nationalism - Clearly covered in the other article listed under see also
• Z (military symbol) - remove from Invasion and resistance, Already listed in the propaganda section below
• International Criminal Court investigation in Ukraine - This is covered in the War Crimes article
• Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis
  Remove from Russian accusations and demands as it is under the Media depiction section

--KD0710 (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support. As the nom points out, all are redundant. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose removal of Russian nationalism. This is one of the primary reasons why Putin invaded Ukraine. Should be given more prominance. Note that yesterday I included it in the sub-title as the last paragraph explains the issue, but someone reversed it Ilenart626 (talk) 00:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
• Semi-Oppose. This is an extraordinarily large and complex topic which has a large number of accompanying articles, with this article (as well as the Russo-Ukrainian war article) serving as an overview/hub article. Linking to these related articles is one of the main reasons for having this article. A link should not be removed only because it is repeated on an article that's also linked from here. That being said, I'd say Colour revolution can go and the Z (military symbol) link could reasonably only retained in the propaganda section. The Russian nationalism link should be kept, as well as the Disinformation link. I'm on the fence regarding the ICC link, as the war crimes article is relatively long and it only appears fairly far down in it. It depends on how important the ICC investigation is, I suppose. Phiarc (talk) 10:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

This whole section is one sided and shows the Western narrative. Can you please add the followings and please ad them as first paragraph (I hope you don't mind about this)

Western machine spread pro Ukrainian propaganda. On February 24, a story started to circulate online, telling of an encounter between 13 Ukrainian soldiers on Snake Island in the Black Sea and Russian warships. According to the story, part of which was captured in an audio recording, the Russians demanded that the Ukrainians surrender. Then, one of the Ukrainians told the Russian making the announcement to “go fuck yourself,” after which the Russians allegedly killed all of the Ukrainians. However, the story was wrong: the Ukrainians surrendered, and they were taken as prisoners by the Russians, not killed.

Another example of Western propaganda is the "Ghost of Kiev". According to one widely circulated post, the Ghost of Kyiv supposedly shot down four Russian fighter jets — two Su-35 Flankers, one Su-27 Flanker and one MiG-29 Fulcrum — as well as two ground-attack aircraft, so-called Su-25 Frogfoots. But the "Ghost of Kyiv" is very likely not real, but instead an imaginary hero designed to bolster Ukrainians' morale in the face of the Russian invasion. There is zero evidence the "Ghost of Kyiv" exists with Ukrainian authorities not confirming their existence. In reality the computer-generated footage of the Ghost of Kyiv winning a dogfight was made using the 2013 video game Digital Combat Simulator and uploaded by a YouTube user.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/technology/ukraine-war-misinfo.html https://readpassage.com/canadian-media-is-spreading-pro-ukraine-propaganda/ https://nypost.com/2022/02/25/who-is-the-ghost-of-kyiv-story-of-ukrainian-ace-pilot-goes-viral/ https://www.newsweek.com/who-ghost-kyiv-ukraine-fighter-pilot-mig-29-russian-fighter-jets-combat-1682651

HelenHIL (talk) 00:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Censorship and propaganda are government initiated. If you can provide RS for any western government report that is contrary to what RS reports, then you may have a cases. KD0710 (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

What is RS? HelenHIL (talk) 01:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources – Muboshgu (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Your definition of what is propaganda is not correct. Propaganda is not only government initiated. This is your definition. Can you please add the 2 paragraphs above. Nowhere have found your definition. If you still want to believe your definition then please add as first paragraph: On February 24, a story started to circulate online, which was widely reported by the Western media telling of an encounter between 13 Ukrainian soldiers on Snake Island in the Black Sea and Russian warships. According to the story, part of which was captured in an audio recording, the Russians demanded that the Ukrainians surrender. Then, one of the Ukrainians told the Russian making the announcement to “go fuck yourself,” after which the Russians allegedly killed all of the Ukrainians. All 13 Ukrainian defenders were killed in a Russian bombardment Thursday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said. "All border guards died heroically but did not give up. They will be awarded the title of Hero of Ukraine posthumously," Zelensky said. However, the story was wrong: the Ukrainians surrendered, and they were taken as prisoners by the Russians, not killed.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/ukraine-russia-snake-island-attack-intl-hnk-ml/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/technology/ukraine-war-misinfo.html https://readpassage.com/canadian-media-is-spreading-pro-ukraine-propaganda/ HelenHIL (talk) 02:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Clearly the section is talking about a major undertaking of censorship and propaganda by the Russian government. That is notable. There is no proven undertaking to purposely mislead by any other nation (or publication) at this point. At best, the minor instances you mentioned would be in the misinformation section. KD0710 (talk) 03:30, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

reliable sources. This is in stark contrast to the state-controlled Russian media, which is perpetuating a cloud cukooland version of reality, where it is now a criminal offense to call a war a war, and to call an invasion an invasion. Cullen328 (talk

) 03:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

What constitutes cukooland version of reality is a matter of interpretation. The willingness to correct errors doesn't negate the propaganda. Maybe this is your cukooland version of reality. Simply you don't wish to acknowledge that in reality we are the "Russians" who live in a distorted world... HelenHIL (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the willingness to correct errors is a very strong indication of a broader willingness to keep propaganda to a minimum, and report the facts. Do you support the Russian decrees that criminalize the use of words like "war" and "invasion"? Does Russian state media currently show any willingness to correct fundamental errors? If so, please provide examples. Otherwise, your comments amount to false equivalency. Cullen328 (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Can you please add the paragraphs. They show examples of Western propaganda. Be objective. HelenHIL (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

tone. Phiarc (talk

) 09:08, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

OK fair enough. My problem is that only the Western narrative is shown. Somehow only the Russians are doing propaganda and are censoring the media but somehow Western governments are not capable of doing the same when clearly they do. This is not an objective article. HelenHIL (talk) 15:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian minister Lavrov just said today that Russia did not attack Ukraine. Given that the Russian narrative is disconnected from reality (and that gap seems to be just widening), what narrative are you expecting? --Mindaur (talk) 15:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Or, name a western nation hat has passed censorship laws over this, or has cut off internet services, or has jailed anyone for not towing the state-sanctioned line? Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

FTR, the idiom is toe the line. -- The phantom pedant

In this case it is obvious that the Russian official version about the entire war is cukooland version of reality Vegan416 (talk) 23:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Definitely not. This section is for Censorship and propaganda from both sides. You are making your own definitions. You have done it twice. Please add the paragraphs. HelenHIL (talk) 03:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Please also add:

Elon Musk claims that he has resisted demands from several Western countries to censor Russian news sites from his Starlink internet satellites amid the ongoing invasion of Ukraine. “Starlink has been told by some governments (not Ukraine) to block Russian news sources,” the world’s richest man tweeted over the weekend. “We will not do so unless at gunpoint.” Musk added: “Sorry to be a free speech absolutist.” The European Union forced Telegram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and TikTok to censor Russia's RT — and its channels in English, Spanish, French and German — off their platforms

https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-rt-media-telegram-ukraine/ https://nypost.com/2022/03/07/elon-musk-refuses-to-block-russian-news-sites-from-starlink/ https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/elon-musk-says-spacex-s-satellite-service-won-t-block-russian-news-sources-3m0EdxXmbUTtBOb4Mrhe — Preceding unsigned comment added by HelenHIL (talk • contribs) 03:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC) HelenHIL (talk) 03:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Not to sound dismissive but the documentation of the repression and censorship in Russia is so overwhelming as to make this request outlandish. I see nothing remotely comparable about Ukraine. I move that the request be closed. Alcibiades979 (talk) 15:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I think your opinions go against neutral point of view policy of Wikipedia. I will push you to include how the West conducts it's propaganda. Please include the 2 paragraphs HelenHIL (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Christ, will you give it a rest? You've got 13 article edits in total and obviously have no clue about applicable policies and guidelines (witness your asking, above, what an RS is). You're beginning to sound like a crackpot, what with treating errors and propaganda as the same thing and so on. This is the wrong article for you to use as a vehicle for learning the baby steps of editing. EEng 06:24, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

difference s with russian lang page info — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.82.46.5 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

for objectivity — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.82.46.5 (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Please identify particular passages not backed up by

reliable sources, otherwise this isn't actionable at all. Phiarc (talk

) 20:14, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

To clarify, the English language Wikipedia doesn't control what is written on the Russian language one. VQuakr (talk) 21:01, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

possibly contribute toward common ground — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.82.46.5 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Please adhere to

WP:EDITXY and propose specific changes or additions instead of sweeping generalized statements. Benjamin112 ☎

02:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Different wiki projects have differing rules and standards. Thus it is not unuseral to see differences (the English Wiki tends to be a lot harsher with enforcement of polices like

wp:v. Slatersteven (talk

) 09:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Can anyone shed any light? 81.108.244.153 (talk) 23:07, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That’s the last update they gave. KD0710 (talk) 00:01, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

priorities

not score keep 164.82.46.5 (talk) 01:31, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

there are daily youtube summaries from ru and by 164.82.46.5 (talk) 01:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Such as? And are they

reliably sourced? Benjamin112 ☎

02:31, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine for example is receiving state of the art anti air defense systems from the UK, and funds from across Europe / The West, very important info to understand the conflict 2600:1000:B14D:F567:50FB:3D80:3293:555C (talk) 01:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Please see Q2 in the FAQ section at the top of the talk page, and the

relevant discussion pertaining to it. Benjamin112 ☎

02:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

The same as the Russian part includes "supported by: Belarus", shoudn't be added to the Ukrainian part " Supported by the EU (or at least a number of countries that are sending weapons)? 94.21.53.60 (talk) 05:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

See first section on this page.Moxy- 05:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Grammar error.

Change the following sentence:

"Although there would still be limited accessibility to ensure the continued ability to pay for gas shipments."

to

"However, there would still be limited accessibility to ensure the continued ability to pay for gas shipments." 64.98.105.34 (talk) 06:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done slightly differently, but with the same effect: "The sanctions included cutting off major Russia banks from SWIFT, the global messaging network for international payments, although there would still be limited accessibility to ensure the continued ability to pay for gas shipments." Benjamin112 ☎ 06:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Per Ukraine, their armed forces have destroyed the Russian patrol ship Vasily Bykov. I believe that this is included in the infobox, in the '3 boats destroyed' row, however, as 'boat' generally refers to smaller-sized vessels, and the patrol ship has a tonnage of 1,700 tonnes, should that row be changed to separately reflect the size of the ship? Changing it to something such as '3 naval vessels' per the 'Ukranian losses claimed by Russia' infobox section seems reasonable. Asking for additional input/row name options on this. Johnnyconnorabc (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Sounds right. —Michael Z. 21:34, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

The cited tweet uses "vessels" so I changed it. --N8 22:27, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

There are currently what are essentially duplicate sections one is: Popular_resistance and the other is Civil_resistance_in_Ukraine. What they have written is slightly different but both deal with essentially the same subject which is average Ukrainian Resistance to Russian rule/invasion. I propose that the two sections be collapsed in to one. Given that the Russian reaction to popular resistance is becoming brutal, and the popular resistance ranges from non-violent civil disobedience to the making of molotov cocktails, and tank traps I propose that the collapsed section be included under "Invasion and Resistance" where Popular resistance is currently housed. Alcibiades979 (talk) 14:29, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support Given the reasons above. We need to condense where it's appropriate to reduce/control the size of this page.--KD0710 (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal; the difference between the two sections is very slim P1221 (talk) 15:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done

bold and this appears to have been completed. Thanks Kober! --N8

22:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 March 2022 (3)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add Tulsi Gabbard's statement from this source.- 27.7.10.251 (talk) 17:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a

WP:DUE? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk

) 17:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Why?Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It is a notable point of view and deserves a mention.-27.7.10.251 (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Is it? She has no authority, and is just another talking head. She is not (as far as I know) a world respected pollical or defence analyst. Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

If it all, it should go into

Reactions_to_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine. Notability and due weight are debatable at first glance, even for that article. Phiarc (talk

) 19:34, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 March 2022 (4)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

cbt 97.64.236.218 (talk) 19:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

You do have to tell us what you want done. Slatersteven (talk) 19:12, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This is a troll request. Ignore it. Super Ψ Dro 20:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't countries supporting Ukraine with weapons and medical supplies be added in "belligerents"? like for example: Supported by: Germany France Etc 156.208.10.124 (talk) 10:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

See talk above, talk achieve and the RFC. Slatersteven (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Infobox's numbers on internally displaced people are horribly inaccurate. According to the UN, there are now at least 1.85 million internally displaced people. The infobox lists only 160,000+. I would also add that 12.65 million people are directly affected by the conflict. Source here.

Matthewberns (talk) 00:44, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done added

KD0710 (talk)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mention the Day of Unity/Unity Day declared by Zelensky for February 16th, in the Prelude section:

Ukrainian President Zelensky declared that 16 February, a speculated date for the invasion, would be a "Day of Unity". Ukrainians were encouraged to "hang our national flags, put on blue and yellow ribbons, and show our unity to the whole world", as well as to sing the national anthem in public spaces at 10 am.^[1][2] Intralexical (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done I have added this.

talk

) 10:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

https://www.rt.com/russia/551816-russia-ukraine-negotiations-progress/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.82.46.5 (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

RT is absolutely not a reliable source. — Czello 20:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned that in some places, we have "Ukrainian government claimed X, Russian government claimed Y", and it's entirely possible that the Ukraine claim was accurate and the Russians are just playing the game of throwing the same accusations back at the accusers to obscure the truth for the general public. The opposite is also possible, but in particular it sounds like the Russians may be intentionally agreeing to ceasefires and breaking them by shelling the evacuees over and over, just to mess with and demoralized Ukraine, and then adding a slap in the face by blaming Ukraine for breaking the ceasefire. But the problem with repeating spurious denials or spurious claims could easily show up with other issues as well. Ukraine also has every incentive to exaggerate or try to present only certain facts for propaganda purposes, so I'm not saying we should accept all of its claims at face value, either. But I can't help but notice that some recent Russian propaganda is wildly and blatantly untrue, seriously undermining the credibility of that government as a source. I'm not saying Russian claims should be dismissed out of hand, either; that could easily lead to inappropriate imbalance. I expect that within a few days of these incidents, more objective and independent or at least detailed information will become available, though it may require some deep digging and possibly looking into non-English sources. What I'm hoping is that with a bit of time we can replace the "one side said, other side said" coverage with something more concrete that lets readers better discern which side, if any, is being truthful in any given case. The idea of repeating untrue (especially verifiably untrue) propaganda from either side is a bit disturbing, and given this article is being written and read in real time, it could actually affect the course of the war. -- Beland (talk) 08:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

All very true, which is why we should really wait until this is all over, as "inaccuracies" creep into all live news story articles I have edited. I would suggest we hold off, we are not a wp:news service. Slatersteven (talk) 10:19, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

For the day of the incident and a couple of days later, we have no option but to use "He says / she says" sources. Later we'll use third parties and delete the first set of sources.. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

We do have another option. That is to stop trying to be a news service (as

Phil Bridger (talk

) 12:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Cross-posting myself from Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Massive disregard of WP:RS in articles related to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: Just to give an example from my watchlist: This is what I had to do in order to make the article compliant with our policies. The information is arguably credible (I did not attempt to look for more sources), but the two sources added to the article are (i) partisan from the same side and (ii) do not even make an attempt to verify the info, instead citing social media belonging to some newsmakers. Note that at least one of the sources is RS, and the second one looks more or less fine. I could have reverted, I have chosen to attribute the opinions instead. This is now massively happening across hundreds of articles. There is probably very little we can do about it, since Russian reporting is clearly just a lie and should not be added in any case, and people take Ukrainian reporting subcritically and still want to add into into articles. But it is something to have in mind, that we are now full of badly sourced partisan info. As I said elsewhere, the Russian invasion should motivate us to add high-quality info to our articles but is not an excuse to lowering our standards.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Yeial (talk) 13:07, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Russian Fiasco and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 11#Russian Fiasco until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 10:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Suggest that first (and currently only) mention of "Blinken" be revised to "US Secretary of State Antony Blinken" and hyperlinked to article at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Blinken>. This applies to the section "Foreign military support to Ukraine" here; see also the proper treatment at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War>. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.34.71.148 (talk) 10:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Done, seems reasonable. Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Is someone going to mention this https://www.thedailybeast.com/belarusian-president-alexander-lukashenko-blatantly-rolls-out-invasion-map-as-troops-enter-ukraine Persesus (talk) 17:16, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change where it says Amnesty International to link to the Amnesty International wiki page. Rzzor (talk) 18:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done. lol1VNIO (talk • contribs) 19:08, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

At the moment, the 'prelude' section of this article is longer than the section actually describing the events in scope of this page. This makes no sense, not least of all because we have

The invasion parts did used to be longer before they were trimmed down, and I think they're currently out of date so may get longer. Plus, the ramifications are events within the scope of this page, too. The prelude section is not that large. I've trimmed a bit of fluff out of it, and someone with a bit more chutzpah than I could go further, but I think it's largely acceptable right now. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Some chutzpah applied. More may follow, depending on the blow back. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

And a little more. Let's see how it goes. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

My work here is now complete. Au revoir. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:PROSELINE issue, plus it seems like an overdetailed dump of numbers. It can probably be skimmed down to a few paragraphs. ProcrastinatingReader (talk

) 12:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. Yep, it seems to have been a dumping ground for fluff and trivia. Let me know if you think that I have cut back too far. "The US vowed not to send ground troops into Ukraine to defend the country." either didn't have a clear source or it got lost amidst a lot of additions. So I have stuck a "citation needed" on it, but I assume that that can be readily provided? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please update the infobox with Ukraine's claimed inflicted losses: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1502228138885099522/photo/1 P4p5 (talk) 12:04, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

FAQ at the top of the page:

Q3: Please update the losses claimed by Russia / Ukraine A3: This generally happens quickly after they are published, please don't make an edit request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, the edit request was made 2 hours after release of data. I'm not sure I agree with FAQ #3 personally; at current rate it's just a few more edit requests daily, which we're getting anyway but not actioning. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

And

wp:notnews is a policy, we do not need live updates, and in fact, I think we would be better off waiting until losses are conformed, rather than repeating each side's propaganda. Slatersteven (talk

) 12:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Due consideration needs to be given to the fact that this is an online encyclopaedia and people are turning to it for information on an ongoing event of signifiance. About data specifically, during the COVID-19 pandemic our statistics were often more recent than news sites, since editors used a broad range of direct sources. Things like infobox data are generally in-demand by readers, and expected to be quite up-to-date. For as long as our practice remains to provide data from both sides without confirmation, we should keep that up to date (as

WP:NOTNEWS says: Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage). Besides, accurate and independent confirmation may not follow until quite some time after the events end. ProcrastinatingReader (talk

) 13:33, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

And it will be done, someone will add it. But we do not need it to be (in effect) a live news feed. We can wait hours or even days with no loss of information, after all none of this may turn out to be true. If it's not (and let's face it in war both sides lie) then we are not giving anyone the best information, we are giving them factually incorrect information. Which is not what an Enclopdoda should be doing. Thus I support FAQ Q 3 and ask editors to stop making requests to add information that will inevitably be added. Slatersteven (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this makes sense. If an ECP editor who is able to directly edit the page adds it, it's fine and a legitimate update. But if a non-ECP editor requests an update on a source, it supposedly violates

WP:NOTNEWS and should not be requested? ProcrastinatingReader (talk

) 16:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

"'No progress' as top Russia, Ukraine diplomats talk in Turkey". www.aljazeera.com. Retrieved 2022-03-11.
"Ukraine war: No progress on ceasefire after Kyiv-Moscow talks". BBC News. 2022-03-10. Retrieved 2022-03-10.
Ellyatt, Holly (2022-03-10). "Russia-Ukraine talks fail with no progress on cease-fire, safe passage for civilians". CNBC. Retrieved 2022-03-10.
Archive, View Author; feed, Get author RSS (2022-03-10). "Ukraine-Russia peace talks fail to make progress as airstrikes continue on Mariupol". New York Post. Retrieved 2022-03-10.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by FINTUR1 (talk • contribs) 12:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Journalist and security services investigator Alexei Soldatov reports that Sergey Beseda, the head of 5th service of the Russian Federal Security Service, and his deputy Anatoliy Bolyuh were put under house arrest for the duration of criminal investigation. They are suspected of embezzling money allotted for undercover work and subversive activities in Ukraine what caused the incorrect assessment of political situation in Ukraine and its armed forces condition and resulted in Russian blitzkrieg failure.^[1]

You know, I'm not surprised. K8M8S8 (talk) 18:08, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian blitzkrieg failure? Is that not a bit premature to add here?-27.7.10.251 (talk) 18:12, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Not really as this is the talk page, but it could not be used in the article. Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It will be useful in the future. Save it for the section "Analysis". K8M8S8 (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Not premature. Probably dozens of articles have put forward evidence that the RF expected to seize Kyiv with an airborne assault in about two days, and there is a document attesting it expected to occupy most of Ukraine in fifteen days. This is the “blitzkrieg” that has certainly failed. —Michael Z. 21:19, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

kasparov 164.82.46.5 (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Meduza says that these officers reported only an information what Putin wanted to hear, just because they were afraid he would be angry. That was the reason of wrong analysis of the situation.^[2]

It clearly illustrates the degradation of public administration in autocratic countries. K8M8S8 (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

However I feel now I need to remind users of

Russia claim in Ukraine war machine casualties mostly already exceed Ukraine pre war inventory including tanks and armored, combat aircraft, helicopter, drones (Ukraine only had some 50 but Russia claim already shooted more than 100 drones). 1 week ago Russia claim in Wikipedia for Ukraine loses : 7 combat aircraft, 69 aircraft in the ground (mostly civilian) but now Russia claimed all of them as combat aircraft. Ukraine didnt had combat aircraft as much as Russia claimed. Ukraine in the position of defensive so they cant uses war machine in large number including tanks, helicopter, aircraft etc. Onl invader or aggressor use war machine in large number. Please put Orxyspioenkop analyse for war machine casualties. They using real picture. Russia loses more than 1000 war marchine including 500 tanks and armored also 27 aircraft. Ukraine loses more than 300 war machine including 160 tanks and armored also 10 aircraft. 103.47.135.173 (talk) 09:27, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

We go with what both sides say. Slatersteven (talk) 11:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

surely they also count the reserves and stored equipment of the Ukrainian army that have been occupied or destroyed, everything they take from the bases (one thing is the active units, and another are the reserves, for example, lets say Russia may have committed 1000 tanks of different types, models and upgrades levels, but has another 20000 in reserve). This means that, for example, of the real losses of the Ukraine, at least in equipment, real number are not really known, because as the Russian army advances, it occupies what is possible and little can be confirmed. I have seen at least one video of the Russian army emptying some of the Ukrainian military bases they have occupied, taking all the vehicles, weapons and ammunition that were there. It must also be taken into account what a "total loss" is, since many of the vehicles that are disabled or abandoned but not destroyed, can be recovered, repaired and reactivated by both parties, as the ukrainian army has been seen doing with some russian vehicles, you can count on the russians doing the same, it is one of the situations that are created when much of the equipment of both sides is the same or similar. Numbers closest to reality, in all points and aspects, may be known when, hopefully, everything ends and settles down, one way or another. Right now everything is estimated numbers, and/or as always, inflated and/or deflated numbers, with bias and skew, for everything and everyone. 152.206.174.214 (talk) 14:42, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

MAybe, but we do not do

wp:or. Slatersteven (talk

) 14:46, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Russia was blamed for genocide by the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy in a speach when they had bombed a child hospital. Weren't the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagazaki part of wiping out the Japanese people in order to achieve peace a genocide? --92.40.174.68 (talk) 02:09, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

What, if anything would you like to see changed in this article? KD0710 (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I should have had written a children's hospital? --92.40.174.68 (talk) 02:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

This Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

A recent edit removed the definition of the reference CNN invasion routes, but it is still used elsewhere, in the footnote for "Supported by: Belarus", leading to an error. So I suggest changing

Russian forces were permitted to stage part of the invasion from Belarusian territory.<ref name="CNN invasion routes"/>

to

Russian forces were permitted to stage part of the invasion from Belarusian territory.<ref name="CNN invasion routes">{{cite news |last1=Lister |first1=Tim |last2=Kesa |first2=Julia |title=Ukraine says it was attacked through Russian, Belarus and Crimea borders |url=https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/h_82bf44af2f01ad57f81c0760c6cb697c |access-date=24 February 2022 |agency=[[CNN]] |date=24 February 2022 |location=[[Kyiv]] |archive-date=24 February 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220224071121/https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/h_82bf44af2f01ad57f81c0760c6cb697c |url-status=live }}</ref>

QuaintlyLittoral (talk) 14:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

 Already done This source, along with other material, has been removed from the template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:02, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

This Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

There are two references for the refugee count by the UN, and the second one has a technical error with archive-url and also the wrong title. So I propose to change

<ref>{{cite news |title=Refugee arrivals from Ukraine (since 24 February 2022)* |url= https://www.unhcr.org/ua/en/43027-unhcr-scales-up-for-those-displaced-by-war-in-ukraine-deploys-cash-assistance.html |access-date=12 March 2022 |publisher=[[United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees]] |date=11 March 2022 }}</ref>

to

<ref>{{cite news |title=UNHCR scales up for those displaced by war in Ukraine, deploys cash assistance |url= https://www.unhcr.org/ua/en/43027-unhcr-scales-up-for-those-displaced-by-war-in-ukraine-deploys-cash-assistance.html |access-date=12 March 2022 |publisher=[[United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees]] |date=11 March 2022 |archive-date=11 March 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220312225445/https://www.unhcr.org/ua/en/43027-unhcr-scales-up-for-those-displaced-by-war-in-ukraine-deploys-cash-assistance.html |url-status=live }}</ref>

I also made this change in the sandbox here. QuaintlyLittoral (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Thanks for pointing this out. However, the infobox was updated and that portion was removed from there. P1221 (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the introduction to "On the 24th of February 2022" from "On 24 February 2022" Andrwejo (talk) 22:04, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: @

MOS:DATE. —C.Fred (talk

) 22:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I think that the question of whether the 1990 (I think) informal verbal assurance that NATO wouldn't expand eastward after the German unification matters or not is notable enough for an article. There's already one about this in Russian Wikipedia [2]. I'm proposing this idea in case anyone is interested in creating an article for this. Super Ψ Dro 20:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

If it is it should go in the Russo-Ukrainian War, not here. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: That's still too detailed. It should go in Russia–United States relations, Russia–NATO relations, Enlargement of NATO, or a child of one of those articles. VQuakr (talk) 23:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure it is: there’s an important book on the very subject, Sarotte (2021), Not One Inch, and numerous articles. Obviously it can be mentioned wherever Russian justifications for the aggression against Ukraine are discussed. —Michael Z. 21:12, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Enlargement of NATO might be a good starting point. --N8 23:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It should be mentioned here but don't think it deserves whole article. HelenHIL (talk) 23:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there any reason that the map on the page is very delayed? I often see towns and cities being shown only captured on both sides days after it happened. Examples: Russian capture of Konotop, Russian capture of Volnovakha now, Ukrainian counter-advances in Chernihiv oblast, the constantly changing situation in Kyiv oblast. It should be updated more often judging by the importance of the subject at hand Equip77 (talk) 02:44, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is

not a newspaper. Nor is the map hosted on en.wiki. Take it up with the commons. Mr rnddude (talk

) 02:51, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

In addition, please see Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 8/FAQ, specifically Q4. Melmann 13:38, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add to

On 7 March, in Vietnam, Haiphong's education authority issued an official dispatch titled "orienting, propagating, monitoring and capturing public opinion on the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine." Previously, Haiphong Party Committee, the Communist Party of Vietnam's highest organ in the city, issued a written request to the entire political system, media agencies, and contingents of public opinion members to participate in propaganda about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. The official dispatch issued by the Municipal Party Committee consists of three points, in which it asks people to not criticise, one-sided criticise; to praise the Communist Party of Vietnam's way, and responds to comments criticising the communist party.

Source: https://www.rfa.org/vietnamese/news/vietnamnews/hai-phong-city-education-service-asked-for-centralized-propaganda-about-ukraine-situation-03102022074144.html (in Vietnamese) Fense Ling (talk) 04:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Why what relevance does it have? Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: It is not clear what the requested text is saying or why it is relevant.

talk

) 10:59, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Could have a place in

Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Phiarc (talk

) 11:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

On 7 March, Haiphong (Vietnam)'s Department of Education and Training issued an official letter titled "orienting, propagating, monitoring and capturing public opinions on the Russia-Ukraine crisis". This letter is said to "deal" with the fact that news about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is being spread in a "pro-Western direction", and along with anti-Communist Party of Vietnam comments on social media. Previously, Communist Party Committee of Haiphong[*], the Communist Party of Vietnam's highest organ in the city, issued a written request to the entire political system, media agencies, and polemics of the city to propaganda about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. The official letter asks citizens to not criticise or one-sided criticise; to praise the Communist Party of Vietnam's way, and respond to anti-communist comments.

Adding to the above (also partially translated from the source given):

The city's Department of Education and Training also asked any educational institutions in the city to report any "violations". Mr. Tran Tien Chinh, Chief of Office of the Haiphong Department of Education and Training, confirmed. In addition, pro-Vietnamese government pages on social networks have also actively subjected to propaganda of the claims made by Russia since the beginning of the invasion.

[*] I can't find the official translation of this.

Also, not sure if this would be appropriate for

Yes it would. Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The removal started here. A few other major conflicts that have a similar format are the

There may be certain specific national reactions which have been uniquely notable in some way that would deserve a mention in this article. I expect Beshogur was just cleaning up in an effort to resolve the maint. tag listed on the "Reactions" section. The edit summary seems to invite exactly this question. If individual countries' reactions are restored, I recommend that the prose clearly indicate the nature of their notability, rather than stating a reaction without context. --N8 20:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Look at

2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#International_reactions, there are no single reaction, it just redirects there. Why are those 4 countries randomly chosen? Because the editor thought those 4 were Russia's allies. Thus a WP:OR in this case. Also similar to the religious heads, this is just duplicate from the reaction article. Doesn't help the article except making it larger and unreadable. Beshogur (talk

) 21:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Germany is not a Russian ally. The point was presumably to include substantive country reactions that aren't cookie-cutter condemnations which are either a) covered elsewhere in the article; b) redundant to the map of the UN vote; c) don't add anything to the article except repeat the same thing in different words. These reactions are interesting IMO because they show:

1. The response by another UNSC permanent member, China, traditionally allied with Russia.
2. The response by Germany, a Western nation, individually, reversing its long-standing approach to defence policy.
3. India, a major world trader and a country campaigning for a spot on the UN Security Council, allegedly working to undermine Western sanctions.

On the contrary, the bulk of the Western response can (and is) best summarised collectively or in "ramifications". We don't need to write that the UK or France or US individually condemned it, it adds nothing, whereas the above do. The actions of China and India, at least, cannot accurately be described as "ramifications".

(note that I did not add this section, but I support its inclusion in some shape or form, at least of the China/India/Germany portions.). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

As the editor who added Germany and China I didn't do it because I viewed them as Russia's allies, I chose them because I viewed them as countries who have a realistic impact upon the invasion, which is why I was trying to stay away from empty platitudes of foreign ministers and stick to concrete actions that they have taken that have impacted the conflict. China for instance arguably is the one who chose the invasion date; Germany's rejection of Russia and realignment of its security interests has completely reshaped European foreign policy, and energy policy. I didn't add Kazakhstan but I didn't delete it either because I thought it was worth mentioning the reaction of another former Soviet Republic to the invasion, and their relationship with Russia, particularly in Central Asia. I did originally have a good deal more about China, detailing how their response to the war has changed, and was adding China's potential economic lifelines but it got cut by another editor. I also originally listed France because of Macron's efforts both to continue creating a EU wide defense based in Europe not Washington, and to keep dialogue open to Putin to allow for diplomatic solutions but it got cut as well. But once again the idea being countries that have had concrete impacts upon the situation in Ukraine. Sorry, I'm very tired, so I'm not sure if this response was rambling. There is an argument that this is analysis, and I suppose that WP:OR could be said. There's alot to be said about France for instance but it quickly becomes WP:Synth which is why France stayed light. Alcibiades979 (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

There appears to not be much consensus. I did not add any countries to the section, but I think some countries not aligned with NATO should be included. Or else the only reactions shown will just be from Western-allied countries, which goes against

WP:GLOBAL (and WP:GLOBAL has been made an official supplement to policy on the Swedish Wikipedia). For me I wouldn't mind if the heading is changed to 'Countries close to Russia' (geographically CN, IN, & KZ are close) or 'Non-Western Countries'/'Countries not in NATO'. Donkey Hot-day (talk

) 02:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Still don't get the importance of those five "individual countries" there. Look at the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh article, there was no exception, and all were moved to the separate article. Those five are not special and have no place there. Beshogur (talk) 13:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

There are probably a litany of different ways to present the same information. For instance, the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict you say doesn't have a reactions section, but Russia is mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 150 times in the article and Turkey is also mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 100 times in the article so I think it's just different ways to display the same information yes there isn't a "reactions section" but the information is still there. We could decentralize the information like the Nagorno-Karabakh article does and speak about China under all the sections where it's pertinent such as Economic Repercussions and the like. Alcibiades979 (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Alcibiades on the pertinence of information presented. A page split for this section is also another option. If the information is not closely related to the already existing main sections of this article then it may be better to have a separate page for that information. Otherwise, the pertinent information should go into the pertinent sections of the already existing main sections of this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The more that I look at it the more I agree with Beshogur: the section should be deleted. Honestly China and India have done next to nothing so why bother mentioning them? Germany has but it gets talked about under NATO and EU, then beyond that the section seems to be a magnet for filling up with Foreign Minister of X country said Y which is bloat and is covered in its own dedicated reactions page. The "Russian Allies" idea fails because the only allies that are supporting Russia are Belarus and Syria, Belarus is already discussed at length and at some point the article will probably mention Syrian mercenaries. Alcibiades979 (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Beshogur and Alcibiades. Pull out any pertinent sentences with cites and place it into the pertinent section in the article. Then either split the section off into a new article or delete it. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Traditionally, Russia's political allies include China, India, Vietnam, Serbia, Armenia, & numerous Central Asian countries. Just because they don't explicitly support Russia's invasion like Belarus & Syria does not mean their reactions are the same as NATO countries. Even being neutral in the conflict can be noteworthy if you look at the criticism from some Western commentators towards India's stance. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 04:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Are you stating that you would prefer to split that section off as a new article rather than deleting it? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Section already has been split off as a new article here:

Reactions to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Alcibiades979 (talk

) 16:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Normally the section split would mean that a short summary would be retained in the main article with a link to the split page. Suggest that whoever did the split to go ahead and summarize that section concisely, and then remove the redundant part which already appears in the split article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Hm, the thing is the India & Kazakhstan sections are already quite concise compared to their sections in the new article. The China section here also doesn't exactly match the one on the new article either. I'm fine with Germany's part being moved up & added to the NATO section since it seems to fit there better (if one wants to keep it). The other 3 countries should be kept I think (esp China & India as they are major players & the most populous countries). Maybe someone can trim down the China section if they are concerned about length. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 07:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I keep trying to whittle down the China section and it keeps getting reverted which is quite frustrating. Alcibiades979 (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild From your trims to this article yesterday to control the size of this article. It looks like there was an article split for the Responses section on this article, however, it has not been edited and kept up to date. It seems like merging the information which has accumulated here in the Responses section to the newly split Responses article (separate article now) would make sense and save alot of space. Maybe keep one or two sentences in the section on China and India as a short summary. Could you see if you can do a further trim of this article by moving much of Responses material here in this article to the split article for "Responses" which has already been created? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

On 28 February 2022 the European Court of Human Rights received a request from the Ukrainian Government to indicate urgent interim measures to the Government of the Russian Federation, under Rule 39 of the Rules of Court2, in relation to "massive human rights violations being committed by the Russian troops in the course of the military aggression against the sovereign territory of Ukraine". On 1 March 2022, the European Court of Human Rights has decided to indicate to the Government of Russia to refrain from military attacks against civilians and civilian objects, including residential premises, emergency vehicles and other specially protected civilian objects such as schools and hospitals, and to ensure immediately the safety of the medical establishments, personnel and emergency vehicles within the territory under attack or siege by Russian troops.^[1] On 4 March 2022, the European Court of Human Rights additionally moreover decided to indicate to the Government of Russia, they should ensure unimpeded access of the civilian population to safe evacuation routes, healthcare, food and other essential supplies, rapid and unconstrained passage of humanitarian aid and movement of humanitarian workers.^[2] K8M8S8 (talk) 00:44, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@

Cinderella was correct in their expression of which commanders should be included in the infobox. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:29, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE guides us on how to populate the infobox. If particular commanders are to populate the infobox, their entries should be supported by the prose in the body of the article (and not just a passing mention). Cinderella157 (talk

) 22:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Obviously some of them are mentioned in the main article like Shoigu, or breakaway states' leaders. This argument is not valid. Secondly, others are mentioned at order of battle article, which makes them notable as well. For last see infobox template about conflicts, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes#Purpose doesn't tell that it's explicitly about conflicts, otherwise, none conflict should mention commanders more than one.

commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary). For wars, only prominent or notable leaders should be listed, with an upper limit of about seven per combatant column recommended. Ranks and position titles should be omitted.Beshogur (talk) 00:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Reverted as this was discussed here before being implemented. As of time of writing, none of the Russian or Ukrainian commanders (except the Presidents) are mentioned in the prose of this article. Shoygu receives a single mention in an image caption, so your statement that obviously some of them are mentioned in the main article like Shoigu is false. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:29, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Can you link me the previous discussion? is false well, open it and do a quick ctrl+f. Beshogur (talk) 11:24, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 7#Commanders though I recall this was discussed multiple times - try the archive search at the top of the talk page. Phiarc (talk

) 11:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Is this even a consensus? I see 3 users. Beshogur (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Doing a search for "Shoigu" using ctrl+f returns one hit to a caption for an image. There is no mention of him in the prose of this article. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:02, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Have you even read the infobox template about conflicts? Are you sure that

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE should be implemented here? It doesn't even make mention of conflicts. If that was right, we should place only single leader for every conflict or battle. Beshogur (talk

) 12:57, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Besides obviously the belligerent's presidents, top military commanders should also be listed, like the Minister of Defense and Chief of Staff. EkoGraf (talk) 17:19, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the documentation for

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE is that we don't write the article in the infobox. Material in the infobox should be supported by the body of the article and the infobox should not be so bloated as to defeat its purpose of being an at-a-glance summary. Cinderella157 (talk

) 23:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to piggyback on this thread to ask about the "territorial changes" item of the infobox. On the template page it says: "any changes in territorial control as a result of the conflict". Does this mean it should be filled in only after the conflict has concluded and a result is established? Or is it meant to be a updated on the go? Phiarc (talk) 21:00, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Not every parameter in the infobox has to be used and the documentation makes this clear. How the infobox is populated (and how much detail) should not be at odds with

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. An intricate list of territorial changes would be at odds with this. At present, we have a map in the infobox showing territorial changes and under "status", we have a link to an article that provides detail on territorial changes. These more than adequately deal with the matter of territorial changes, while being consistent whith the primary purpose of the infobox: to provide an at-a-glance summary. Cinderella157 (talk

) 23:48, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

*Russia occupies Kherson, one of the 22 regional capitals of Ukraine. [removed ref and note in original]

I have removed it (07:18, 12 March 2022) with the edit summary: Redundent inforation. Map shows territorial changes and there is link to control of cities. It has been reinstated with this edit summary: obviously not "Redundent inforation". there's territory section on the infobox template for a purpose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_military_conflict. I was not specifically aware that this had been moved in and out of either the territory or status sections a couple of times already. The infobox documentation would state this:

territory – optional – any changes in territorial control as a result of the conflict; this should not be used for overly lengthy descriptions of the peace settlement.

I would state that this should not be in the infobox for the following reasons:

• Territory is an optional parameter. It doesn't have to be populated.
• This entry is misleading since it would suggest to readers that this is the only territorial change that has occurred and/or the most significant change. There have been significant Russian advances on several fronts.
• Expanding this section to be "more complete" would be overly lengthy. The infobox documentation specifically warns against that. It would also be contrary to
  WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE
  , since a lengthy description could not satisfy being an "at-a-glance" summary. Such detailed information would also need to be detailed elsewhere in the body of the article in order to be considered a summary of the article's content.
• Per my edit summary, the information is redundant. since an image in the infobox shows the territorial changes and the status section has a link to
  control of cities
  .
• Territorial changes are in a state of flux and if anything, it should be dealt with under "status", where the present population of the territory parameter is not too problematic (not easily summarised and ongoing).

For the preceding reasons, I believe we should remove the present text under territorial changes and refrain from its use for the present. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:49, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I find the infobox to start being overcrowded with reported men killed by multiple factions and particularly when the extensive detailing of equipment type losses are shown. I suggest using horizontal lines (particularly for the US who isn't even a participating faction) and to have a different section for Human casualties and Equipment losses. P4p5 (talk) 21:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The infobox is overwhelming. I personally feel equipment losses should be removed given the extent of the war. Also, let’s not bog down the casualty toll with so many sources. I suggest a range or a neutral party as the source. KD0710 (talk) 23:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Consolidate casualty details and refs into {{efn}} and just show min-max range? Fine with removing equipment losses given that notable exceptions (if any?) can be added in prose as appropriate. --N8 00:00, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I think we should keep the equipment losses somewhere on the page for 3 reasons:

• We don't have specific numbers for the individual battles list.
• The amount of equipment lost give a decent indicator of the scale of the fighting and forces committed. Something human casualties doesn't always translate.
• The volume, pace and technological level of those losses hasn't been matched by any other conflict since the Gulf War. And if we consider both sides losing a lot of equipment quickly, this is unprecedented since the end of the Korean War. P4p5 (talk) 03:44, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I think that’s what is preferable. Giving a range is much more readable than what is there now, yet still encompasses all the sides presently reporting casualties. Also, at this point naming all non-human loses is superfluous information. --KD0710 (talk)

NATO, Australia, Turkey, Japan, and South Corea have supplied military systems to Ukraine according to Wikipedia map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Countries_supplying_weapons_to_Ukraine_during_the_2022_Russian_invasion.svg/1920px-Countries_supplying_weapons_to_Ukraine_during_the_2022_Russian_invasion.svg.png

See Q2. KD0710 (talk) 02:26, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. NATO, Australia, Japan and South Korea should be added in the Belligerents section under the heading support. These nations have not only supplied weapons to Ukraine but also sanctioned Russia. Sng Pal (talk) 05:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

See #Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:46, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Today Belarusian political police GUBOPiK arrested user of Russian Wikipedia from Minsk who was working on the article about the invasion accusing him of the "spread of anti-Russian materials" [3] [4]. Should we mention this unprecedented case or is it necessary to wait for additional details? — Homoatrox (talk). 12:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Depends on whether "Mark Bernstein" is actually a Wiki editor, has been arrested, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.16.144 (talk) 13:26, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

No, why is this relevant to the war? Slatersteven (talk) 13:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Why is this relevant to the war??? Um, hmmmm, let me think... No, complete coincidence. Nothing to see here. EEng 14:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

It is not relevant to the war, as it has no impact on it, our understanding of it, or it's progress. Slatersteven (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you need to give your imagination freer rein. If his arrest has anything to do with ruwiki's covereage of the war, then it's certainly relevant. EEng 06:17, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I did not say his arrest was not, I said I do not see why it is relevaslt to an article about the war (and not say its social impacts). Slatersteven (talk) 10:52, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes it should. Super Ψ Dro 14:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Should we make separate article? For example, "List of persecuted Wikipedians" or something else? K8M8S8 (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

No. We do not need a new article for every minor news story. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:15, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Seems more closely related to topics like

Russian–Ukrainian information war, Censorship in Belarus, etc. even perhaps Belarus–Russia relations. Interesting story but tangential to the topic of invasion. --N8

22:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@

KUrban (WMF): This issue is already public - see above. Any public comments from WMF that could count as WP:RS? Boud (talk

) 00:50, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe there is a comment on

talk

) 09:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The Verge links to this account which says an indefinite global block was applied "До выяснения обстоятельств" ("until we know what's going on"). I assume it's to reduce the probability of him being tortured and made to edit under duress. Boud (talk) 01:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The sources link

2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine related Wikipedia pages, so it seems relevant. Boud (talk

) 03:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Who made an article?

WP:BLP1E exists for a reason. BSMRD (talk

) 03:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Boud created it with total disregard for notability and BLP. And now we have to have a week long protracted discussion via AfD on what to do with it. FFS. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Known for over a decade as a major Wikipedia editor; international coverage from the US and Belarus; multiple independent sources. Boud (talk) 04:56, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, come off it.

WP:BLP1E: Being in the news does not in itself mean that someone should be the subject of a Wikipedia article. The three conditions being 1) single event (check), 2) otherwise a low profile individual (check), 3) the event is not significant (check,this routine in Belarussia and Russia). Being in the news for five minutes does not constitute notability. Mr rnddude (talk

) 05:20, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

At least add it as a trivia knowledge. 2001:4BB8:2CC:5842:3DF5:D716:55F:5383 (talk) 21:05, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Russia is recruiting Syrian troops and sending them to Russia to fight the war. Also, the Syrian president Bashar al-Assad has backed the Russian invasion. Then Syria should be added to the Belligerent list along with Belarus under the heading support. Can this edit be made? Citations: Putin approves foreign volunteers Russia recruiting Syrians Syria backs Putin's invasion Bashar al-Assad supports Russian invasion

Sng Pal (talk) 05:37, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Don't write the article in the infobox (per

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. This is not mentioned in the body of the article. Please write the article first. Then the infobox can reflect and summarise the body of the article. This must also be a specific action by the state of Syria. Cinderella157 (talk

) 08:39, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

As the article says, "volunteers", these are not official Syrian troops. Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can someone include - in the economic impact section - the potential brain-drain the war & sanctions are causing for Russia? Some reliable sources about this topic: BBC [5], WSJ [6], FT [7] Bommbass (talk) 09:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Please be more specific and change above to "no" Chidgk1 (talk) 19:11, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't we add the countries that support Ukraine to the Infobox? Martianmister (talk) 15:04, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

See FAQ Q2. Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

So, on this note, the RfC specifically suggests reopening it with a more narrowly focused question. Could we mock up a full example of what the infobox would look like with the "Supported By" field included (but not in the belligerents section, as consensus is against that), and then open a new RfC with that specific proposal? I feel like it's time to try again. Fieari (talk) 23:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

The closer would assume that the infobox has the feature to support such a distinction. I don't believe it does. Furthermore, there is the consideration of the infobox size wrt

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The infobox should be an at-a-glance summary and therefore not excessively long. One should note that mobile devices do not support drop-downs. The infobox is reported herein to already be about 8 screens long on a mobile device. That is already way too long without adding more intricate detail that would make it even longer. Cinderella157 (talk

) 02:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Bigger....longer the info box is the more readers will not read the article statsMoxy- 02:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

https://time.com/6156582/ukraine-anti-russian-hate/ Persesus (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a scattering of these articles, and maybe the issue should be discussed somewhere, but I don't see the sources showing this is prevalent enough for it to be included in this article. It seems to be mostly localised phenomena. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 04:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

We have the opposite view as well that could be mentioned.... that is... Sympathy for the Russian citizens... like our fellow Wikipedia editor that got arrested [8].Moxy- 05:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Anti-Russian sentiment, perhaps? What is the link about? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

About balance Wikipedia:Controversial articles.Moxy- 05:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

should be 1 (first — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.82.30.38 (talk) 03:10, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's one, but there are some peace talks that are continuations of others. But... I do believe that each talk should be listed separately. KD0710 (talk) 14:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Is it really accurate to describe the recent air and long-range missile attacks on Western Ukraine as a "Western front"? There's no one on the ground there and similar attacks began on the first day of the invasion. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Not a front yet. There were several cruise missiles attack from Russian ships in Black and Azov seas. But this is a notable escalation. I would suggest just to change the title to something like "Cruise missile attacks close to Lviv". My very best wishes (talk) 15:46, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Done. Somebody has already changed the section heading to "Missile attacks in Western Ukraine". ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

OK. According to Ben Hodges, that attack was not so significant, and "the Russians are about ten days away from what is called the culminating point, when they just no longer have the ammunition nor the manpower to keep up their assault" [9].My very best wishes (talk) 18:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

In the infobox Ukraine has reserves, Russia has not (it sould be 2,000,000) --Sinucep (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Russia’s reserves aren’t actively participating in the invasion, thus not included. Only active participants are included, including Russia’s military. KD0710 (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, difference with Ukraine's reserves is that there was general mobilisation, whereas IIRC Putin said there would be no conscription or calling up of Russian reservists to fight in Ukraine. So the former are technically participants, or potential participants, in the military conflict, whereas the latter are not. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

To tell the truth, Putin lies, as always. Conscripts were used in combat actions in Ukraine, some of them were killed, wounded or captured. And this information was confirmed by Russian Ministry of Defense on 10 March 2022.

In addition, some of Russian military units involved in combat actions manned by voluntary reservists (Russian military human reserve - part-time military service).

Moreover, on 18 February 2022, Putin signed the decree on call-up for military training among persons who are demobbed from active duty service but are not in voluntary reserve service; quantity of persons who are subject of this decree is classified; this mandatory "military training" can last for 2 months. On the use of this persons for combat actions, I have no information. K8M8S8 (talk) 09:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Is it forbidden to stand on the Russian side and take part of the wiki talk? --92.40.174.68 (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

If verifiable information supports the Russian position, it should be included in the discussion. EngineeringEditor (talk) 04:16, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

NO, but we do expect reliable sources. Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Due to NATO or NATO countries giving Ukraine many weapon donations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.227.23.35 (talk) 19:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Link_to_closed_and_archived_RfC:_Should_the_individual_arms_supplying_countries_be_added_to_the_infobox? Phiarc (talk

) 20:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The date on your wiki page is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:7236:0:0:0:3 (talk) 15:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Putin authorized the invasion on the 22nd, but it did not begin until 2-24-22 ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 16:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

You need to cite a newspaper article or other source that supports what you're saying. See the "References" at the bottom of the article. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:58, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

https://www.rt.com/russia/552015-italian-flights-ukraine-weapons-aid/ 164.82.46.5 (talk) 22:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Please present a

WP:RSP for more detail. – Muboshgu (talk

) 23:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

And by the way, that source doesn't say that the war began on 22 February... P1221 (talk) 10:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I was going off of the dates given in the prelude section of the article ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 11:36, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The reference isn't specific, and 20,000 people haven't been killed; 20,000 have been evacuated. 73.188.85.234 (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Infobox reports "2,300–2,857 civilians killed", not 20,000... P1221 (talk) 10:53, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please replace the "Wenclass Square" ref in the section

 Done P1221 (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

"Prominent editor of Russian Wikipedia pages detained in Belarus," Yahoo.

"Authorities in Belarus have arrested and detained ... one of the top editors of Russian Wikipedia.... Bernstein was reportedly accused of violating the "fake news" law Russia passed in early March by editing the Wikipedia article about the invasion of Ukraine. Under the new law, anybody found guilty of what the country deems as false information about the Ukraine invasion — remember, the Kremlin calls it a "special military operation" — could be imprisoned for up to 15 years." --2603:7000:2143:8500:19EE:D8B5:8A85:4329 (talk) 06:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, there are some sources about a belarusian volunteer fighting for Ukraine, Aliaksej Skoblia, who was killed in battle near Kyiv yesterday: https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1503134196763668481 or https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1503151077897785350 Cristi767 (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Potentially a different section detailing what types of losses differentiating between ground, naval, and air equipment. Russia has been losing a significant amount of equipment to "farmers" since near the start of the invasion and should be mentioned since civilians capturing large amounts of tracked armor is highly unusual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:967F:DA30:51C1:8325:A86C:B3F6 (talk) 19:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Zalensky to Zelenskyy 77.228.42.0 (talk) 21:45, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done Renat 21:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The following collapsed discussion has been moved to #Dealing with casualties in infobox to centralise discussion. Please continue discussion there. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:44, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The number of fatalities listed for "UAF, NGU, and volunteer forces" is listed as between "5,000 - 6,000" however the source cited (291) specifically says that the fatalities for this group are between "2,000 - 4,000." The number currently quoted is for the Russian Armed Forces, not Ukrainian. It was misquoted from this article. 104.243.50.43 (talk) 04:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Already done Somebody already updated the value as requested. Thank you for pointing this out. P1221 (talk) 13:50, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Please change it back to the estimated losses for each piece kf equipment, i.e. 80 helicopters 350 tanks etc. It's much less informative to just say 2700 pieces of equipment 67.60.116.128 (talk) 04:55, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The infobox is a summary of an article which is also a summary. The source gives details. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, you can also refer to the body of the article. If the breakdowns aren't in the body then someone could add them there. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there anything useful is comparing the differences between the approaches taken by the Russian version of this same article? ErnestKrause (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

TOC (paraphrase of the Russian main section titles only)

1. Terminology: "Special military operation"

2. Pre-history

3. The speech of the Russian president

4. Relative size of strength for invasion (3 subsections)

5. Military actions (2 subsections)

6. Nonviolent Ukrainian opposition

7. Negotiations

8. Casualties and other losses (3 subsections)

9. Accusations of war crimes

10. Situation in Ukraine (3 subsections)

11. Actions of Ukrainian leadership (4 subsections)

12. Actions of Russian leadership (5 subsections)

13. Foreign military aid

14. Effects on Russian infra-structure (4 subsections)

15. Reaction within Russia (4 subsections)

16. Reactions in general and globally (6 subsections)

17. Effect on Global Markets

The 2 article versions are roughly the same size at about 350Kb, though the TOC outlines look different. Can the current English version be enhanced in any way? ErnestKrause (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

NO as they have different rules (and I suspect now are subject to different laws). Slatersteven (talk) 11:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

In the highly visible lead section one used to read: "The president of Russia, Vladimir Putin ... accused Ukraine of being dominated by Neo-Nazis who persecute the Russian-speaking minority". @Hemiauchenia added "falsely" and explained: "The allegation is false, which should be expressed in Wikivoice". I reverted and gave my reason: "I agree, the allegation is false, but here we don't take a stance, do we? WP:NPOV". But Hemiauchenia thinks differently and reverted, and here we are. Any views on this? Should we take a stance in the lead section, "Putin is lying", or should we rather stick to

If believe the Nazi claim is adequately refuted in the “Russian accusations and demands” subsection. Plus the same sentence in the lead also includes Putin’s claims about Ukraine's statehood, which again is dealt with in the subsection. So I think

WP:IMPARTIAL means we need to leave as is. Otherwise we would also need to say something about Ukraine’s statehood. Ilenart626 (talk

) 02:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian government’s association with far right parties and neo-Nazi groups as the

Azov Battalion must be concidered here hence they are serving as National Guard of Ukraine. They took recruits from many other countries, Sweden included with a famous member Mikael Skillt portraited in BBC NEWS 16'th of July 2014 and in other media from Sweden. Ukraine has monuments of Ukrainian nationalists that was collaborating with the Nazis from the WWII, one was Stepan Bandera, leader of (OUN) and mentioned by the Forward newspaper. “Ukraine has several dozen monuments and scores of street names glorifying this Nazi collaborator, enough to require two separate Wikipedia pages,” wrote this Jewish newspaper. Memebers of (OUN) served as local Ukrainian militia for the SS and German army. So, Ukraine has a history from being nationalist, far right and Nazi until this day with the Svoboda party, recently with members in Ukraine's Parliament. --92.40.174.68 (talk

) 03:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Shall we also mention all the statues in Russia of people who had a hand in the Holodomor? That, at least, would give direct historical context to the relationship between the two states and the present invasion. Intralexical (talk) 03:49, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Note that the “Russian accusations and demands” subsection already contains the details below. Also in most recent Ukrainian parliamentary elections in 2019, a coalition of ultranationalist right-wing parties failed to win even a single seat in the Rada, so overall the Ukraine government cannot be called pro Nazi Ilenart626 (talk) 03:53, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

While Ukraine has a

Azov Battalion and Right Sector,^[1][2] analysts have described Putin's rhetoric as greatly exaggerating the influence of far-right groups within Ukraine; there is no widespread support for the ideology in the government, military, or electorate.^[3][4] Ilenart626 (talk

) 03:53, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

See no reason why this article should be a battleground for a Russian propaganda slur. Azov has its own article, they are even neo-nazi in a meaningful sense (especially relating to the war) and the overall far-right inclusion among the total armed forces / volunteers involved is trivial. --BLKFTR (tlk2meh) 04:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I tried to give as neutral info I could with somewhat reliable sources as background. Even the neutral BBC seams to support the Ukrainians in their broadcastings, I can't see anything else. Almost all neutral media that are said to be so take the Ukrainian stand and show full spite for Putin. They are trying to keep to the facts, but inbetween there's allways colors of support for Ukraine, EU, NATO etc. Western values and interests are the main dominating influence in media and within NATO. --92.40.174.68 (talk) 05:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

If I were a pro-Russian reader, I would stop reading the article after a few lines – that "falsely accused" would make it clear to me that this is a piece of Western propaganda. If we want the reader to be informed about Russia's case for war (which doesn't mean embrace it) we should convey their reasons in a meaningful way instead of mocking and trivialising them. Obviously the current Ukrainian government is not a fascist dictatorship. According to Time magazine, when Putin said "demilitarize and denazify", what he meant is that there are extreme right-wing elements in Ukraine that can conceivably be described as neo-Nazi.The sources we are currently relying upon in the article (NBC and ABC) don't support the statement that Putin accused "Ukraine of being dominated by Neo-Nazis" and "Ukrainian society and government of being dominated by neo-Nazism". Either we find a verbatim source, or that statement is a trivial misrepresentation. Apparently Putin said "Ukrainian society was faced with the rise of far-right nationalism, which rapidly developed into aggressive Russophobia and neo-Nazism" and mentioned "Neanderthal and aggressive nationalism and neo-Nazism which have been elevated in Ukraine to the rank of national policy"; he said "we are fighting neo-Nazis" and said "the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine". This is clearly war rhetoric and it is not simply "false": what he is selling to the Russian people is that one of the goals of the invasion is to fight neo-Nazism, the de-nazification of Ukraine, and in my opinion that's what our article should say, instead of labelling as "false" some supposedly factual statement by Putin on the nature of the Ukrainian government. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:30, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

There are plenty of far-right movements in Russia:

Duginism, Eurasianism, Pamyat, proponents of Great Russia, etc. There are plenty in democratic countries too. The question is: is the country as a whole is dominated or ruled by "neo-Nazi"? In Ukraine, the answer is unequivocal no. As a side note, today's Russia pretty much matching most of the definitions of fascism and, at this point, could be legitimately called a fascist country. However, that is a whole separate topic. Mindaur (talk

) 12:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

If a country is being invaded by a supposedly "far more" powerful enemy, being picky abouy who is allowed to help you isn't gonna help much. Sure, the Azov's are nazis and disgusting but Ukraine needs all the help they can get. Ocemccool (talk) 06:39, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

In context "falsely" is clearly a loaded, emotive term, that should be removed. The reader can make up their own mind on the truth or falsity of the accusation based on evidence already presented in the article HieronymousCrowley (talk) 09:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

How is a statement of sheer FACT a "loaded, emotive term"? It is practically insane to suggest so. Impartially doesn't mean sacrificing fact and accuracy just to make someone's criminal junk sound less criminal so they don't throw a tantrum. 172.91.72.97 (talk) 22:36, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

One battalion and 4% of the vote a nazi dominated nation does not make, the claims has been shown to be false. Slatersteven (talk) 11:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I think that Putin's accusation should be seen as a fringe theory considering the number of strong arguments against his point of view (for those who are not convinced by the provided links: 300 scholars wrote an open letter flatly denying this accusation), so the use of the word "false" seems relevant. — Homoatrox (talk). 12:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

There are numerous

WP:FRINGE; it would be echoing a blatant propaganda. Mindaur (talk

) 12:50, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Some more sources [[10]], [[11]], [[12]], [[13]]. These either say the claim they are rin by NAzis, or that this is about "de-naszification" are false. Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

These are mostly editorials which report legitimate convincing but subjective views of various people and associations. I think that the use of "false" undermines the whole article, which should rather strive to deliver a neutral and objective point of view. By speaking of neo-nazism and denazification, clearly Putin is not making a descriptive statement which could be either true or false; he is stirring up emotions and indicating a policy objective - he is delivering "propaganda", if you want - which is what any head of state would do in order to justify a war. Either we take a stance on the war and claim that he is lying, as some propose, or we keep our NPOV and provide reliable information on the debates surrounding the war (Slatersteven's sources could be used to that end). --Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:48, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Moslty does not mean Soley, so yes RS has said this, so unless this is disputed by RS there is no dispute. Slatersteven (talk) 12:04, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Shall we have another, yes let's [[14]], want any more? Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

• @
  persuade readers by gently tiptoeing around their worldview/ignorance, especially if this compromises a factual summary. Jr8825 • Talk
  13:21, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Always a good time to plug Larry Sanger's essay[15] on this debate. — Czello 13:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I have little sympathy for Larry's views on Wikipedia's anti-conservative conspiracy, but I doubt even he would argue that we should qualify – or avoid "debunking" – Putin's baseless, fascistic talking point regarding Ukraine being a neo-Nazi state. This is an area where the entire spectrum of factual, academic thought (including both US liberals & conservatives) appears to be in agreement. (Unlike, for example, the validity of Putin's concerns about NATO, where there appears to be genuine disagreement.) Jr8825 • Talk 18:46, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

"falsely" is a fact established by reliable sources. It is not a point of view. So it does not violate NPOV. To omit it from the lead just to have a pro Russian read our article would be clickbait. Tradedia^talk 01:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

What is clickbait is the use of the term "falsely". To native English speakers the word "claimed" already implies "falsely", so the use of both words together is a tautology. Of COURSE the claim itself is false, everybody knows that. There is no need to spell it out HieronymousCrowley (talk) 05:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok, scrub my last remarks, I still think that there is no need to over-egg the pudding with the term "falsely", but I also see that the actual text says "falsely accused" not "falsely claimed", so... mea culpa HieronymousCrowley (talk) 05:51, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I find this idea of being "pro-Russian" problematic. I am pro-Russia, one of my favourite authors is Lermontov; I've gone through all the works of Leskov, Bulgakov, Bely, Dostoyevsky, Gogol etc. I listen to Russian music, so by any reasonable metric I like Russia. That said I of course support Ukraine, and have donated money to Ukraine, because I'm not brain dead. There's this temptation to treat the entire thing as if it were a 2D US Political spectrum but it is not. There is the truth and there is kremlin propaganda. Kremlin propaganda and lies need to be documented as such, and when Reliable Sources state that Putin has lied it needs to be stated. It seems to me

WP:NPOV in the extreme to put kiddy gloves on when treating lies that are being used to bomb Ukraine because of a desire not to offend the viewers of Russian Times and Sputnik. 191.177.204.73 (talk

) 10:33, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Did those reliable sources establish anything else? Maybe that Putin is a bad guy? If it's backed by reliable sources like CNN and White house, we are not in position to oppose such statements on wikipedia 195.136.76.5 (talk) 12:48, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Let me briefly restate my point, which is twofold. 1) We are not reporting Putin's statement in an entirely accurate way. In his 24 February address on Ukraine he didn't say that "Ukraine [is] dominated by neo-Nazis", as one reads in the article, but rather said that "the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine", "we will seek to demilitarise and denazify Ukraine", and "Your fathers, grandfathers ... did not defend our common Motherland to allow today’s neo-Nazis to seize power in Ukraine". These statements have a (quite flimsy IMHO) empirical basis as there are indeed fascists on the ground in Ukraine. 2) These are not statement of fact, which could be either true or false, but rather declarations of intent, policy objectives and expressive statements, aimed at stirring up aggressive sentiments. To label them as "false" is to misunderstand them. Which is what in a time of war everybody does: "you are fascists and we are going to wipe you out!", "You liar!", this is the kind of "conversation" we are trying to assess in terms of true/false. Now, @Jr8825and @Slatersteven asked me for a reliable source, and I have found one - it's Vox, a perennial source. "Russia’s president says he wants the “de-Nazification” of Ukraine. That actually means regime change"; "with this seemingly absurd rhetoric, Putin is laying the propaganda groundwork for the overthrow of Ukraine’s government." My point exactly. True/false don't apply here, unless we just want to take a stance ("You liar!"), which I think is what many would like us to do. Putin is stating that Russia's objective are not only strategic and preventive (national defence) but also political (regime change). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 02:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The lede of the article states that Putin has "falsely accused Ukraine of being dominated by Neo-Nazis who persecute the Russian-speaking minority," citing an NBC fact-checking article.[16] However, another NBC article published 9 days later appears to directly contradict that.[17] The phrasing in the lede is weasel-y (the word "domination" is vague and implies many things) and unhelpful, so could we either qualify Putin's false claims ("falsely accused the Ukrainian government of being dominated...") or remove the word falsely altogether? The word "accused" already makes it clear that this is Putin's own claim and not a fact. 2601:196:4900:15CD:54AE:72E9:E528:F116 (talk) 09:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

See talk above about this. Slatersteven (talk) 11:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

where to find fotos after the antonov factory in kyiv destroyed ? --92.218.124.118 (talk) 12:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

It's unclear what changes you want made to this article. This talk page isn't for discussion about the event or subject, and such comments may be deleted per

which requires at least 500 edits and a 30 day-old account, it seems like for the time being you can't edit this article. You are, of course, welcome to create an account. —Remember, I'murmate — I'ma editor2022 ^{(🗣️💬 |📖📚}

) 14:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Do not like the edit summary, because is totally unnecessary. and here is a subject many people is reading about to direction the help for a link --92.218.124.118 (talk) 16:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

You need to CAREFULLY think about what you are told, as you are courting a topic-ban if you continue.50.111.16.144 (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? All they've asked for is a link to some photos of a factory. Who issues TBANs for that? IP (.118), you can check Wikimedia Commons if they have the images you are interested in. Otherwise, Wikipedia doesn't have any and you'll have to search elsewhere. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:38, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

It might be seen as a violation of

wp:forum, but I am unsure other English is quite good enough to not think they might have just badly worded something. As to IP 50, yo do not seem to have a lot of edits under your belt, so it might be best if you refrain from issuing warnings. Slatersteven (talk

) 17:42, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

With over three million Ukrainians fleeing the country, the invasion has also caused the largest refugee crisis in Europe since World War II. Better replacing it with ... in Europe since then. so as not to repeat the same words from the previous sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.41.129.19 (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I read this last night and felt the same way. I’ve edited it as suggested. Thanks for your contribution. KD0710 (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

This 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The infobox says "2,741 vehicles and other military equipment".

The source does not say that. So… IMO that's

I think it should be changed back to reporting each category of equipment separately, as the source does.

That would also make it consistent with how the figures according to Russia are presented.

There is no need to condense so much. The section has a "Show"/"Hide" toggle anyway.

The source does not claim to exhaustively list every category of "military equipment". Using the categories that it does report as a total is therefore unsubstantiated.

And "vehicles and other military equipment" is such a broad category that it's virtually meaningless… That could refer to anything from a parking lot full of bicycles to thousands of aircraft carriers with hundreds of thousands of stealth aircraft. Intralexical (talk) 03:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The infobox is intended to be a summary, not a detailed list. More detail could be provided elsewhere. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Melmann 07:21, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

All of them have supplied military systems to Ukraine according to Wikipedia map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#/media/File:Countries_supplying_military_equipment_to_Ukraine_during_the_2022_Russian_invasion.svg [Unsigned 00:20, 16 March 2022 ExoQuest (talk | contribs)]

See:#Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipeda you dont try to be neutral but you go with humanity. You must side with Ukraine. Because if you neutral by accidently you spread Russia propaganda. You spread Russia lies by writed Russia destroyed more than 3700 Ukraine wachine and Ukraine only destroyed 2700 Russia war machine. Ukraine didnt have the number of aircraft, drones, tanks etc in pre war inventory that Russia claimed destroyed. Ukraine didnt have 160 combat aircrafts, 100 drones, more than 1000 tanks/armoured vehicle. Ukraine only in defensive position and they dont have ability to using war machine in large number. Instead the number Ukraine claimed destroyed from Russia war machine mostly were true. Russia did have a large quantity of war machine in pre war inventory. Russia in attacking position so they always used a large number of war machine. Wikipedia you accidently created article that described Russia as the winner. You support Russia aggresion and the act of killing innocent peoples. So please include Orxyspioenkop analyse for war machine casuaties in this article. It include list and complete with picture. Russia loses more than 1300 war machine (600 tanks/armored, 400 jeep/trucks, 30 aircraft) and Ukraine loses only 300 war machine (200 tanks/armored, 70 jeep/trucks, 10 aircraft). Please stop support killing civilian in Ukraine. 103.47.135.149 (talk) 15:19, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

This article is not supporting either side, and attempts to give as neutral view of the situation. It does not support killing civilians in Ukraine, or anywhere for that matter.--- EngineeringEditor (talk) 16:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

We do not, we take a neutral stance and give both sides version. Slatersteven (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@EkoGraf what do you think about this? How about only citing independent loss estimates in the infobox and relegating the numbers reported by either conflict party to the casualties article and its transclusion? The data from Oryx is probably not WP:RS (being essentially a personal blog or self-published), though it is the largest publicly available list of claimed losses with some sourcing I know of. Phiarc (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I think that articles citing Oryx would be ideal, at least for counting losses of Russian vehicles. I'm pretty sure that this was already discussed somewhere else on this talk page--- EngineeringEditor (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I should clarify- I think that news articles that use Oryx's data would work well as Wikipedia citations ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 16:58, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I dunno, isn't that just "RS-laundering"? (Assuming Oryx is not citable, why would the same information repeated by e.g. the NYT become citable? - Russian or Ukrainian numbers don't become reliable by being repeated by a media outlet, either.) Phiarc (talk) 18:50, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking something along the lines of this article. It cites different sources for casualty figures, as well as some vehicle loss claims. It cites Oryx's numbers without taking them as gospel, using them alongside other estimates. ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Phiarc In regards to casualty figures, I was always for including self-admitted or 3rd party cited figures, while delegating the belligerents' claims of their enemies losses from the infobox to the main body of the article due to the high possibility of propaganda inflation. This is due to considering that self-admitted casualty figures present a kind of confirmed minimum of casualties. However, if Russia does not give an update of its losses anytime soon, we might as well include in the infobox only figures cited to a 3rd party, since it seems the US gives an estimate for both sides every week or so, while leaving a link to the other estimates in the casualties section. Lets see in a few days how things develop. As for figures on vehicle losses, this in my opinion should definitely be cited only to a 3rd party source in the infobox. EkoGraf (talk) 01:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand the issue with using Oryx, if it's good enough for the Economist for instance, why not us? We can also cite it in the article with a superscript ie: according to Oryx. I agree with OP as well about the current lay out. Most sources I see show far greater equipment losses for the Russians than for the Ukrainians but the lede at the moment gives the impression that the Ukrainians have taken more equipment losses, which is misleading. I understand that people can scroll down, but the lede is supposed to show a condensed version of data and as it currently stands that condensed data is inaccurate according to most sources. 191.177.204.73 (talk) 09:46, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Oryx is a bad source (I'm of the opposite opinion). What I'm saying is that if I (or someone else) were to add Oryx I'd assume it would be reverted due to

WP:RSSELF. So I'd want to establish some form of consensus that Oryx is RS before adding it, or finding a "non-RS-laundered" source like EngineeringEditor did. I think that article could just be cited as is, but I'm refraining from content edits in this area for now because I am way out of my depth here (I usually fix missing spaces after commas and stuff like that). Phiarc (talk

) 11:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm way out of my depth too, but the short discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_322#Oryx_blog makes some interesting points which might be of use to other editors. Storchy (talk) 11:39, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

As stated below, even with the photos of oryxpioenkop site, the losses are not possible to know for sure in either of the two sides. Unless the equipment is one that is only and only used by the russian army or ukrainian army, it cannot be guaranteed that it is russian or ukrainian. there is too much similar equipment on both sides. If it is equipment used the same in both armies, it is not possible to be sure unless some serial number or conclusive identification is shown (no, an external drawing of a letter Z, V, whatever, is not a conclusive identification, anyone can paint it on a disabled/destroyed ukrainian vehicle, or similarly yellow stripes on a russian tank to pass for Ukrainian). There is equipment that the Russian army has "lost" and destroyed/disabled ukrainian equipment that it recovers in its advance, and also what it is taking out (vehicles/weapons/munition) of the Ukrainian military bases that it has occupied, and this is equipment that cannot be confirmed in quantity or type. even that is what the site says (the commenters even find duplicate images). and this is similar with all other numbers and estimates 152.207.223.188 (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the part that this article completely paints Russia as winning the conflict because it completely fails to draw attention to first hand evidence of extreme Russian losses and gives undue prominence to figures that have no such evidence or are outright Russian state lies. This article simply fails to give an accurate sense of the war thus far to the casual reader if not most readers and thus is failing as an article. 172.91.72.97 (talk) 22:39, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Actually no. Every equipment had series number, unit number and even nation flag. It could also be traced by its location. If its in location that previously being held by Ukraine so the equipments belong to Ukraine and so the otherwise. Also Ukraine didnt have Aircraft Sukhoi 30, Sukhoi 34, Helicopter Ka 57 or Mil 24, T-90 tanks, SAM units Buk, Pantsir etc. It easily to recognized. It think Orxyspioenkop its a research for war machine casualties that closer the truth than just state propaganda. Because it include the picture of the war machine itself. For example Russia claimed destroyed more than 100 Ukraine MLRS. The fact is Ukraine dont even have 100 MLRS in the first place. Even US only had 50 MLRS. Ukraine wouldnt use large quantity of MLRS because it can kill their own civilian. They not that stupid. Russia in other had hunderds of MLRS. And had experienced to used it in large quantity (Katyusha in WW II). Because they didnt care about civilian. Ukraine claimed destroyed 60 Russian MLRS. According to Oryxspioenkop there was 30 picture of Russian MLRS being destroyed or captured by Ukraine but only 2 Ukraine MLRS picture being destroyed or captured by Russian. Mostly Ukraine claimed destroyed Russian war equipment 30-50 percent had picture in Oryxspioenkop. But from Russian claimed destroyed Ukraine war equipment only had 10-20 percent of picture in Oryxspioenkop. Russian claimed had destroyed more than 1200 Ukraine tanks and armored vehicle but only had picture less than 200 in Orxyspioenkop. Ukraine claimed had destroyed more than 1800 Russian tanks and armored vehicles it did had more than 600 picture of Russian tanks/armored in Orxyspioenkop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.47.135.149 (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine does have (or should we say, had?) Mi-24 helicopters and Buk systems (original models, maybe a few upgraded to M1). hell, even a ukrainian Buk missile from the kyiv air defense hit a city building (it can be recognized in the video of the event), perhaps because of its old or defective systems or being without maintenance. MLSR, according to wikipedia, as of 2016 Ukraine had about 185 BM-21 and 70 BM-27. Of course, the question is how many were in existence (active and reserve) at the beginning of hostilities. and of course there are fewer images of the Ukrainian losses, either destroyed or captured, much remains later in areas controlled by the Russian army, and of what they capture they do not put photos on social networks (although I have seen at least one video of as in an occupied Ukrainian military base, they load and take all the equipment, weapons and ammunition that was there, and you will not see photos or inventory accounting of this, but rest assured that they add up). in addition, what they recover later and that is not destroyed (a lot of equipment is seen abandoned or just disabled). For this reason, only irrecoverable losses, say destroyed equipment, can be safely counted as real losses, for either side. That is why the numbers are variable in time, sometimes they subtract and sometimes they add up, but the real is not known, perhaps only at the end, after all, it is said by both parties, or some research in this regard. meanwhile, all numbers are estimated, manipulated or pure disinformation. therefore, even with the biases they have, the numbers estimated by the US are the most "balanced" 152.207.223.82 (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes but most of them non operational from Soviet era. By the time war begins not more than 100 Ukraine MLRS still operational. But if you take a look at Oryxspioenkop you will know that most of Russian claimed were bogus and totally lied. Only 300 pictures of Ukraine war machine loses vs Russian claimed Ukraine loses close to 4 thousands war machines thats not even 10 percent. Instead there were more than 1200 pictures of Russian war machine loses vs Ukraine claimed 2700 Russian war machine loses. Thats nearly 50 percent. I think the real reason wiki dont want to using Oryxspioenkop because its clearly showing Russian losing the war. I curious how many Russian supporters in here. You are supporting killing peoples. If you hate Ukraine because you hate US, Western, NATO or even Jewish just remember it was Ukraine peoples they killed not US or other western countries. If you Russian really have a guts they should pick countries with theyre own sized. Why also Wiki didnt showed 3 Russia generals killed in Ukraine? I bet if its Ukraine general were killed they will show it in infobox. Please stop ideology of facism and stay with humanity. It was Russian killed Ukraine childrens not the otherwise. Dont support a country just because you like theyre ideology but look at humanity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.47.135.149 (talk) 23:41, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Destruction of Russian tanks by Ukrainian troops in Mariupol (4).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The following collapsed discussion has been moved to #Dealing with casualties in infobox to centralise discussion. Please continue discussion there. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

the main page of World War II does not detail any Generals killed. Likewise this page should not list any either, it is already too long. They should be detailed in the relevant battle articles Ilenart626 (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Not the main page no, but pages about months-long campaigns do: Eastern Front (World War II), Western Front (World War II), Philippines campaign (1944–1945), North African campaign, World War II in Yugoslavia, Anglo-Iraqi War. The question is if we consider this article a campaign in a bigger war and I would argue it is due to how the article is framing it by being part of the Russo-Ukrainian War. P4p5 (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

The separate WW2 articles for the invasion of Poland, the Eastern front, North African campaign do show a detailed list of the commanders involved and KIAs. The «main page» for this conflict following this logic would be the 2014 Russo-Ukrainian war article, but the above mentioned theatres of WW2 are more similar in scale than WW2 as a whole. Eplerud (talk) 01:37, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Of course, because WWII is too big to cover in an infobox. I could show 99 other articles having 5x larger infobox than this. That's a bad example. Beshogur (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• It is not that these casualties shouldn't be mentioned somewhere - but where. They need to be written into the body of this article or another article. They certainly cannot just be dumped into the infobox under the casualties section. Per
  WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it is meant to be an at-a-glance summary and not a repository for miscellaneous information. The casualty section is already too bloated to be an at-a-glance summary as it is. Cinderella157 (talk
  ) 08:48, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Not under the casualties section, but under the commanders section. They were senior commanders, so they belong to the commanders section? Bommbass (talk) 09:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Not there either for much the same reasons. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Per Phiarc, the infobox is already too long. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:12, 13 March 2022 (UTC)