Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions

Great summary as a help to further discussion. Not a good justification for cutting off discussion. EEng 01:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support suggestion that editors coming in from ARS can only improve articles, not vote. That would be huge. Like literally I'd join ARS if that were the rule. —valereee (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Good close attempt, shame it wasn't allowed to stick. As more opinion is apparently wanted, the Robert McClenon analyses looks mostly spot on, though it may be more accurate to say the rescue squad has always been controversial, rather than problematic. For me its the deletion process that is inherently conflict prone. Theres always going to be folk objecting to the destruction of other peoples hard work, dissolving the ARS would not change this. See here for how deletionists have been viewed by journalists New York Times, the Guardian and various other reliable sources. Reyk's correct the ARS is now mostly moribund. Despite retaining several extremely impressive active members, the projects is a pale shadow of the mighty force it was back in the naughties. I see no need for action. But if there is to be an RfC, I'd suggest it should be neutrally framed. I.e a simple "What do about the ARS?" Option B could be to dissolve the project, while option A should be to commend it, or at least the most active members, such as the Colonel (Andrew D), Dream, Lightburst and 7&6=thirteen . Their scholarship, helpfulness, and coolness is most impressive, even in the face of mockery and talk of confronting them at London wikimeets , etc etc. (Yes I did read that 7&6=thirteen added some low quality sources to the Daniella van Graas page back in 2019. So the thing is 7&6 had less than 1,000 edits back then. They've since much improved and fully merit being mentioned alongside editors like Dream & the Colonel.) FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that you, a member of the Squad, are bringing up articles from over a decade ago to justify your project’s now-increasingly-undeniable purpose as a partisan interest group dedicated to waging war on “deletionists” is a stronger argument for dismantling the ARS than I could ever come up with. Singling out and demonizing an entire group of editors, and maintaining an organization (no matter how moribund) dedicated to
    WP:HOUNDING them for their perceived “attacks” on the encyclopedia, is absolutely contrary to the spirit of the entire Wikimedia Project. Shameful. Dronebogus (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    You have probably added enough hyperbole to the thread. i would ask you to do actual research instead of assuming facts not in evidence. Lightburst (talk) 21:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Interesting coming from someone who never refuted the accusation that they lied about an image source to strengthen their position. Dronebogus (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    You do know what

    WP:FUR. The point is it is a public domain photo and those who favored deletion wanted it deleted so it could not portray Willie Fuller in the article. I know that is an inconvenient truth, but that is the timeline. The photo was removed from the Fuller article, but not from the Horne. That should tell you all you need to know. Inconvenient truth. - Not the Al Gore stuff. Lightburst (talk) 21:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Show us the evidence instead of acting like we’re so stupid as to not know what propaganda is. Dronebogus (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    User:FeydHuxtable 7&6's coolness was totally on display here: [25]. Mztourist (talk)

    No, I wanted it deleted because you had failed to demonstrate WP:BURDEN in your upload to prove it was PD. I care about article quality and the integrity of Wikipedia. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I doubt many long term editors see it in terms of waging war on deletionists, and sorry if it seemed I was demonising them. Even as an editor with quite hard core inclusionist views, I see quality control and even some content deletion as essential functions. There's always going to be some friction between those performing said functions and those more focused on content retention. I dont see how dissolving the squad will substantially change that, though it would end a long established vehicle for article improvement. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I wish all members of ARS had your humility and clearheadedness. Sorry if I overreacted a little myself. If more squad members behaved like you, perhaps it could be reformed. But right now it just seems like a canvassing club for a small band of smug, superior inclusionists. Dronebogus (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I thought the close was fine and think this discussion should be moved to where actions can be taken if consensus allows. Can’t see the point in keeping open a discussion where people can air their gripes without action being taken. Vladimir.copic (talk) 20:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I propose to close this thread and open a new ANI against the four most active members of ARS (Andrew, Thirteen, DF, and Lightburst). The project (and its associated problems) is currently centered on them, and if you remove them from the equation it wouldn’t be hard to unceremoniously shut it down and file it as “historical”. Dronebogus (talk) 21:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps list the past 100 things on the Rescue list, and a chart showing how many of us participated in each one, and the results of the AFD. Or getting stats showing the last AFDs each of us participated in, and what percentage of them were on the Rescue list. Most of the ones I find myself in aren't. If you want to make a case you need evidence. But the evidence will clearly show we do not all regularly show up at the AFDs on the rescue list. You can find random examples here and there from years apart to try to mislead people of course. Dream Focus 21:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    right? I do not think Dronebogus has done his research. Seems to be interested in demonizing and frantically lobbying. from what I have read above, after you started the fire Dronebogus, you can just sit back and watch your work. A good pyro always watches their work. No more accelerant needed. Lightburst (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Is that all you are capable of? petty insults, agreeing with your ARS buddies, and the

    Chewbacca Defense? Dronebogus (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Wake me up when you are done attacking and disparaging. I am building the encyclopedia.What are you doing? Do some research - everything is available, every edit, every interaction. Lightburst (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not every editor feels their worth is determined by making as many pages as humanly possible. I’m sorry if adding links, PRODing articles about strip malls and organizing anime and manga related files on commons isn’t glamorous enough for you. In any case your insufferably dismissive, passive-aggressive behavior during this discussion is arguably bad enough for a ANI of its own. Dronebogus (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Can you two cut it out? jp×g 00:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    My apologies. Dronebogus (talk) 08:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The first one listed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Adelita_(turtle) shows Andrew voted Keep, the next day I said Merge, then after others found reliable sources giving it significant coverage I changed my vote to keep. We don't just show up and yell Keep for no reason or always agree with one another. What about the ones from that time period where it was just two of us or only one of us? Seems like a sampling that would project a misleading conclusion. Dream Focus 00:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me like it'd be easier to look at their AfD statistics (where this information is all aggregated automatically). Here, for Lightburst for example, we can see that in their last 167 !votes (of 2547 AfD edits in total), they made 118 keeps/speedy keeps, and 49 deletes/speedy deletes/merges/userfies/redirects, which is about a 70% to 30% ratio. Per my analysis of all AfDs since 2005, the historical average is that around 16% of AfDs are kept. If you voted 70/30 completely at random on every AfD, you'd expect to have 11.2% of your keep !votes close keep, 4.8% of your delete !votes close keep, 58.1% of your keep !votes close delete, and 24.9% of your delete !votes close delete: ergo 36.1% of your !votes would align with the final decision. However, Lightburst's match rate is 65%, which is twice that. This implies, at the very least, that they are not just spamming "keep" on everything. Whether or not all of these people form a complete voting bloc is, well... people tend to do that. jp×g 03:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The first one I clicked on is
  List_of_most_expensive_and_valuable_assets Andrew said to Redirect it, I just asked a question and didn't vote. Dream Focus 01:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Hey Levivich. Glad we haven't had any negative encounters recently. Question: Doesn't is stand to reason, when an article is selected for rescue, it is because someone thought it was rescuable. Just as when someone chooses to AfD it is because they thought it was hopeless. So I will challenge anyone to renominate any that we saved. I think they are bulletproof - but maybe I am wrong. If any should not be in main space delete them. Lightburst (talk) 01:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I literally only found out about this WikiProject yesterday over at the dinosaur skeleton deletion attempt, and now I found this discussion where deletionists are trying to delete the project? Surreal inside-baseball Wikipedia style. The editors who are active on the project seem to have provided a good venue for editors concerned about the assembly line of articles being put up for deletion daily (myself, I try to not venture into AfD more than a couple times a week if that, a depressing place, and taken this odd attempt to silence fellow Wikipedians probably should look at it more often), kind of but not quite like how the fringe-theory people have fashioned themselves a place to serve as a free-speech Wikipedia information forum. Only good faith solution is to just edit and let edit, leave the thing standing with no further attempt to cancel culture it, and if there isn't a similar hangout for the deletionists then there certainly should be. The two can hold a summer softball game and picnic, and get along just fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I literally only found out about this WikiProject yesterday and you already know what the Only good faith solution is. I've been at this for three years and I don't know what the solution is. What's your secret? Levivich 05:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Maybe new eyes on the topic, which see nothing wrong in a group of editors who recognize that way too many interesting, popular, and well sourced pages are put up on AfD. Take the dinosaur skeleton page for example (my Halloween costume problem solved), the topic and article have been expanded and clearly saved, but nope, editors still want it gone, as if it's competing for the last bit of storage space on the server. Often a group of articles from topic trees are under the ax (wanting to cancel many of the Tuskegee airman, for example, falls under the category of WP:"are you kidding me?"). So finding out that a group is around which tries to rescue pages which, even when seemingly rescued, are stilled deemed unworthy, and then the next day finding this discussion which wants to cancel that group? Like I said, new eyes. Letting long-term WikiProjects do what they set out to do is the essence of assuming good faith in fellow editors. Pointing to some potentially savable AfD pages not only doesn't seem like a bad thing, but arguably is an essential part of the greatest existing all-volunteer collaborative check-and-balance system (except for ants, who run a pretty tight ship). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Calling Article Rescue Squad a Wikiproject is an extreme stretch. Literally the only thing it does is serve as a central notification system for articles that it's members want people to vote keep on. It does absolutely nothing other Wikproject do though. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, it's quite similar to other projects which focus on articles with a particular status.
          WP:ITN looks at articles which are in the news and so on. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
          ]
• With regards to the recent stream of tuskegee airmen nominations, the 4 discussions with substantial ARS participation were all closed as keep or no consensus. A
  Avilich (talk) 02:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  It's crazy that inventing pages of a reference out of whole cloth is just being treated as another wacky antic of ARS and not a serious problem in its own right. ApLundell (talk) 05:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Suggestion while the idea "that editors coming in from ARS can only improve articles, not vote" sounds appealing I don't see how it would work in practice. How could you tell if someone other than the poster at ARS is coming in from ARS? That won't solve the canvassing concern as an inclusionist will post a page at ARS and then the rest of the gang will vote in the AFD. Better to just shut down ARS, which is described as "moribund" anyway and watch what happens at AFDs. If there are concerns about the behavior of people at AFDs then those can be addressed by individual ANI cases. As can be seen above already, the Gang of Four/Five/Six are throwing out various examples of how they don't all !vote the same. Let's remove the canvassing forum of ARS and take a clean slate view of AFD participation. Mztourist (talk) 03:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Fully Support Let's move this discussion to the appropriate place with some teeth. We don't need this discussion to continue ad nauseam. There seems to be pretty strong consensus that this should be put to bed one way or the other. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support It's clear there is a consensus that action needs to be taken, but also that this isn't the right place to do it. So the discussion should be moved to where it can be resolved instead of continuing here endlessly. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support closing the thread without consensus; this seems increasingly less like an opportunity to reach a conclusion about a difficult issue and more like a trainwreck. BusterD, El_C, valereee, Black Kite, and Levivich seem to be of the opinion that ARS has some serious issues. Dronebogus and Vladimir.copic aggressively posit that ARS should be destroyed; Roxy the dog doesn't seem to have expressed any specific opinion about policy, but has called people "arseholes". Mztourist and Indy beetle, who also support the shutdown of the ARS, both !voted "delete" in several recent high-profile AfDs around which this dispute seems to be vaguely centered. Other participants, on the anti-"shut down ARS" side, include Andrew , 7&6 and Lightburst, who (if I recall correctly) !voted "keep" in those same AfDs. However, Dream Focus, Ritchie333, David Fuchs, Rhododendrites, Masem, Nfitz, GreenC, Piotrus and FeydHuxtable seem to feel that there is not a major issue with the ARS that justifies shutting it down... I have trouble looking at this mess of a thread and seeing consensus on any point other than "it's not going anywhere productive". jp×g 05:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Definitely add me to the "shut it down" faction. The unquestioning, uncompromising belief that every grain of sand on the beach deserves its own Wikipedia article is an embarrassment to the project and a drain on its resources. List of accidental electric shocks on railways in Romania -- you must be joking. EEng 06:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Awwww, I wanted to join this project as a Editor. Then that would make me an ARSE. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment here -- we might need some sort of an expert on jokes that weren't funny. But I guess it's hard to connect this with what's going on here -- sure, it might be dumb for people to think we need an article about every grain of sand on the beach, but are there currently people refusing to compromise on it? jp×g 07:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd say advocacy for keeping List of accidental electric shocks on railways in Romania is a pretty clear signal that reasonable compromise isn't possible. EEng 02:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• My perception of this whole thing is somewhat informed by a 4-year wiki-break I took while real-world stuff left me with little free time. I have never been in either the inclusionist or deletionist camp, in fact my AFD record is pretty much 50:50 with about 84% accuracy. Those who know me know I rarely tack
  WP:BEFORE. We have admins closing AFDs with statements that would clearly have been better as contributions, but apparently super-voting is now tolerated. And we have admittedly deletion-driven ("spam fighting") guidelines stretched to the point of Dalí-like surrealism so that they can be applied as broadly as possible in a thinly-veiled effort to delete anything that certain cliques don't like. And in other cases guidelines are applied so narrowly as to not allow inclusion of anything (with novel interpretations that include assertions not even mentioned in said guidelines). The more things change, the more they stay the same. Four years ago I probably would have encouraged the neutering of the ARS, but the pendulum has already swung way the other way and I see no value in doing so now. St★lwart¹¹¹ 08:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  It's not the job of the nominators to improve articles. Nor is it the job of the keep voters to either. AfD isn't cleanup or whatever. The only reason improving articles has came up in this discussion is because ARS members have repeatedly said that it's what the forum exists for. Despite the overwhelming evidence that it isn't improving anything. Otherwise, I doubt most people would care. Let alone use it as a talking point. I know I wouldn't. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed. This isn’t about whatever this is, it’s about whether the ARS is a disruptive/unhelpful organization. Dronebogus (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  AFD is not cleanup because

  WP:BEFORE

  encourages people to do that work... you know... before. Its absolutely the nominator's job; we couldn't be more clear about that.

  And okay, then I don't believe that in the current context of AFD they are disruptive. Certainly not to the extent they were in the "bad old days". And whether or not they are unhelpful is irrelevant. We don't take action against those who are unhelpful, otherwise we'd lose half the admin corps (hell, we don't even take action against those admins that are disruptive).

  Ironically, your best chance of having the ARS deleted is to declare them an organisation, claim they fail

  WP:NCORP, and be done with it. St★lwart¹¹¹ 09:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  What you said is an oxymoron. If a "nominator" could do the work to get a clearly notable article up to the notability standards before nominating it, then there wouldn't be reason to bring it to AfD in first place and we wouldn't even know about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Indeed, there would be no reason to bring it to AFD. That's the point of

  WP:BEFORE. St★lwart¹¹¹ 10:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Doing a

  WP:BEFORE wasn't done. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Not a magic wand, no, but it is a requirement. A significant portion of the time, nominations are based on a lack of in-article sources, decade-old tags, or a misunderstanding of a particular SRD. In a small number of cases (very small) its actually a question of sources or source quality and

  WP:SNOW close. St★lwart¹¹¹ 11:31, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  So your saying ARS members are acting dishonest and repeatedly providing inadequate sources when they could just find quality ones instead? Weird position since I thought you were defending them, but OK. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Let me just correct a misconception here: we've actually had discussions about whether BEFORE is strictly mandatory. Consensus was that, although it's considered good practice, it's not strictly obligatory. The reasons have generally boiled down to BEFORE being too often used to attack nominators, and the impossibility of telling just how thorough a search has been. The AFD I linked above? The crappy sources dumped into that discussion and presented as evidence the nom didn't do their due diligence are the sort of red herrings a conscientious nominator would have found and dismissed as obviously irrelevant. This sort of thing happens all the time and it's why nobody really flogs BEFORE anymore unless the nominator has been genuinely negligent or you want a reason to kick him in the teeth for nominating garbage you want kept but can't otherwise defend. Reyk _YO! 11:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Okay, as an example: we recently had a slew of seemingly rapid-fire nominations. So rapid-fire, in fact, that mere minutes (literally, 1-2 minutes) had passed between one nomination and the next. It turns out the nominator (a well-known deletionist) was running through a category of articles historically tagged as being of questionable notability. All of them were tagged 10+ years ago. They said so. Most of them were about notable things. Most were

  WP:BEFORE also being clear), presumably in the hope enough drive-by per-noms would provide justification for deletion. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Sounds like the process worked fine and as intended if the articles were speedy kept. Articles that shouldn't be deleted weren't deleted. So what? I don't really see what the issue there is. Also, a drive-by PERNOM vote that will be ignored by the closer has way less of a negative impact on the project then someone verbally harassing a nominator based on a hunch and then being dishonest about references. They aren't even comparable. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  The point is that without groups like the ARS, there is a much higher liklihood that disruptive nominations like those will stand, there will be nobody to do the nominator's job for them, the nomination will be supported by a flock of PERNOM deletionists, and the article will be deleted. That nominator has been active for years; if that nominator's recent track-record is anything to go by, plenty of articles that shouldn't have been deleted, have been deleted. Nominating something for deletion, and thereby claiming to have completed

  WP:BEFORE checks, is also being dishonest about references. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I's seriously bizarre how the pro ARS people act like it's existence is the only thing keeping the AfD process from spiraling into deletionist chaos or similar doomsday nonsense. There's plenty of other keep voters out there besides the four ARS members that are currently active and it's not like they can't still participate in AfDs if its depreciated. None of your problems hinge on there being a central forum to canvass people from. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I think we agree there. St★lwart¹¹¹ 13:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  If this is about Boleyn's rash of ill-advised nominations and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's block for calling her a misogynist, I'd argue said block isn't tangential or a stretch at all. Someone making even the most silly and wrongheaded nomination isn't a licence to call them any name you like. And no, I don't believe previous blocks for screaming abuse at people is a tenuous connection. Reyk _YO! 13:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Then you know it was a three year campaign, not a "rash". And you know he referred to "systematic misogyny", because a female-led band was nominated for deletion simply because it hadn't been worked on. And you know it changed the make-up of that discussion, to justify relisting rather than closing as SNOW and tacking another onto an already woeful record. Its the same from both "sides", and has been for years. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Stalwart clearly has a point. As a fresh example of out-of-control deletionism, here's another nomination of a FA for deletion. I attended another AfD for an FA the other day and so nominating FAs for deletion is now the new normal. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    If all ARS members were blocked or banned, the result would be 0 AfDs of featured articles turning out differently. --JBL (talk) 22:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    True. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many articles are improved. Sometimes stubs have been turned into much larger articles. Textile performance for example went from this [26] at 4 thousand bytes when nominated for deletoin to 78 thousand bytes now. It then got put on the main page of Wikipedia. Wikipedia_talk:Article_Rescue_Squadron_–_Rescue_list#DYK_for_Textile_performance. The edit history [27] shows 7&6=thirteen did a lot of work on it, as did others. There are many examples of that. Probably need to collect them and post them somewhere. If someone had a bot to check file size of an article when it was nominated and when the AFD ended, that'd be useful. I don't remember how many articles worked on by any of us ended up on the front page of Wikipedia. Be good to compile a list of that as well. Dream Focus 09:44, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Sometimes articles are improved by ARS. But a higher percentage of the time that's not the case and the whole thing always comes with a ton of unnecessary drama. That said, I do think the project would have value if it didn't focus on AfDs and put it's time purely into "article improvement" instead, but at this point it seems like the main contributors to ARS are just in it to right great wrongs or whatever though. Which doesn't serve anyone. Even if articles are occasionally made better by way of the nonsense. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I’ve noticed a lot of the complaints seem to be focused around Lightburst and Thirteen’s recent behavior. DF and Andrew can be obnoxious sometimes but generally they’re a bit better behaved in my experience. Perhaps we should just open an ANI about them and divert this away from a wiki-political brawl about who’s more “evil” this week. Dronebogus (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that it would be a good idea to focus on the one or two most problematic members. --JBL (talk) 22:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• As an additional data point, I looked to see what was listed on
  WT:ARS and came across Laura Hoffmann and my immediate thought was "what makes soccerway.com and worldfootball.net reliable sources?" and "why do we need three citations to cite Laura Hoffmann (born 12 August 1991) is a German footballer who plays as a defender for SpVg Berghoven" and "why shouldn't we create an article on the team first?" The AfD closed as keep, but not a single editor who advocated keeping did any work on the article, so people like me coming to the article fresh get no benefit whatsoever. If this is the best the ARS can manage, I think serious consideration should be given to marking it historical, given its reputation seems to cancel out any theoretical benefit. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  That wasn't put on the rescue list, nor do I see anyone from the article rescue squadron there. With such a large number of articles sent to AFD each day, a lot will be kept for various reasons, you can't just blame every article you don't like on us. Dream Focus 09:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I partly agree with Stalwart's analysis but, like other participants, I question its relevance. AfD culture has changed slightly, and for the better. But what he interprets as favoritism towards deletionism I see as just a just a bit more balance. Not like the bad old days when you'd make a detailed, well thought out argument for deletion and closing admins would flick you aside contemptuously in favour of throwing themselves worshipfully at the feet of any keep voter who wandered by to assert they
  like the article and that the nominator is an asshat. The personal attacks have been a constant feature of ARS methodology from the beginning. In this discussion for instance we have the ARS calling Dronebogus an arsonist, which sounds uncomfortably like the "nazi book-burning" rhetoric of a decade ago. Elsewhere I have drawn attention to the ARS calling people racists and shills
  and been dismayed at the effort and persistence it took to get the admin corps to even acknowledge the problem, much less act on it. I don't know if this reticence was the result of favouritism, or just an understandable reluctance to become the targets of a vengeful ARS screech campaign themselves.

Now, regarding the abuse of

WP:BEFORE, and not having sufficiently grovelled at the holy altar of BEFORE means you're not allowed to scrutinise the garbage non-sources. Reyk _YO! 09:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Oh, it may be entirely irrelevant. But that's kinda the point. This discussion would have been useful 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. But the deletionists now have as much to be sorry for as the comparatively powerless inclusionists. St★lwart¹¹¹ 10:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon? If you're claiming delete !voters are guilty of misconduct on par with organising voting blocks, falsifying sources, and calling people racists or nazis, I'd like to see some evidence of that. Reyk _YO! 11:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely am. Spend 20 mins at AFD. St★lwart¹¹¹ 11:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I spend plenty of time at AfD and I haven't seen the behaviour you describe. I think you are talking out of your ass. Again, if you're going to make allegations like this, show evidence. Reyk _YO! 11:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I genuinely believe you haven't seen it. I can't see a single AFD that you have contributed to which was started by the editor in my example above, since early 2020. If that causes you to believe I'm talking out of my ass, so be it. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Stalwart111 Provide diffs to show us what you're referring to. Mztourist (talk) 15:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I provided a detailed account of that editor's 3-year campaign above. St★lwart¹¹¹ 22:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I may jump in, as an irregular AfD contributor and having no particular affiliation to either camp, here are few samples of "rabid deletionist" modus operandi:

No such user (talk) 13:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Just to provide a bit of background here, that last one was the result of a user creating thousands and thousands and thousands of badly sourced and often inaccurate articles about mostly

living people and then, when the scale of the problem was identified, he used a sock account to give these very crappy articles a seal of approval. All this had to be checked and it was a huge amount of work. A surprisingly small number of those articles ended up, on inspection, being suitable for the Encyclopedia and that seems to have been one of them. This is not a good example of "deletionists" being careless; quite the opposite in fact. I don't think this has much to do with the topic, which was derailed by silly and unconvincing "they're ad bad as each other"-- as though occasionally sloppy nominations or a few perfunctory "delete per nom" votes are as disruptive as screaming "NAZI" at people, or presenting sources at AfD while lying about what's in them. Reyk _YO! 14:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Wow it's almost as if limited experience is not enough experience to draw any conclusions about a "deletionist camp"... Levivich 14:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who called Dronebogus an "arsonist"? The ARS isn't a living entity. Mention the specific editor you have a problem with. If most of their AFD work is done elsewhere besides what few articles are on the ARS list, then getting rid of the ARS wouldn't change that at all. I see where Dronebogus called me "obnoxious" above, and he has made additional insults for days now. Dream Focus 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lightburst called me an arsonist. Dronebogus (talk) 10:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The example of
  uncivil mess and the quality of such evidence is appalling. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  With Accusations of deliberate misogyny the comment was "If anyone can find Dutch language sources the articles can saved from deletion." Whereas, in ARS you asked for "reinforcement and support." Are you seriously going to act like those are the same thing? --Adamant1 (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I like thematic comments and so, in that cherry-picked case, chose military words to fit the military theme. But my comments vary considerably as I don't like monotony. Looking back at the first of Levivich's examples above, Adelita (turtle), my ARS entry was "This was a US project in the 1990s but my access to US press coverage from that era is not so good. Perhaps a US-based editor could help." So, sometimes I try a thematic hook, sometimes I make a specific suggestion. YMMV. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah, it was a just a harmless thematic comment to fit military theme...Right...Kind of like "If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team." I guess your a crypto-canvasser. "No, no...I wasn't trying to enlist people to vote in the AfD or saying ARS can save the article. I was just citing a quote from the A-Team song." --Adamant1 (talk) 11:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  "In 2007, a crackpot Wikipedia editor unit was sent to ANI by an administrator court for an AfD they didn't start. These men promptly appealed from a maximum indefinite block to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by Arbcom, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the Article Rescue Squadron." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC) [reply]

  We should explain that the topic in question was B. A. Baracus. The puzzling thing in that case was that just about nobody turned up to the discussion – yet again the canvassing claim is refuted. And there was some weirdness about the nominator that Jclemens handled. "I aint got time for your jibba jabba!" Andrew🐉(talk) 11:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I pity the fool who sent that to AfD. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I went there but didn't comment in the AFD. I did add a reference to the article itself that I found after looking around for sources. [28] So no canvassing or vote stacking. Sometimes I improve the article, this time only slightly, without participating in the AFD. Dream Focus 12:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Andrew Davidson, Here is a diff of the article being mentioned on the project page. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  That was a request on the talk page, asking for access to a particular German language source. What's the problem? Andrew🐉(talk) 10:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Speaking as someone who is often on the "opposite" side of the ARS "voting block", I am not particularly concerned about it (or canvassing). As long a the closing editors remember that
  WP:BATTLEFIELD-manner, attacking nominators and so on. But as AN(I) in the past has failed to sanction that editor (who has been reported here several times, with a rough 'no consensus' ending each time), I believe nothing short of an ArbCom will have any chance of ameliorating the problem. Again, I repeat: the problem is not ARS, which is a noble initiative providing a useful level of scrutiny, the problem is the radicalization of its members, or perhaps just one vocal individual, who believe(s) that time-wasting google hit laundry lists, mixed with bad faith commentary about evil deletionists, is the way to 'save' articles. I will also add that this type of problematic behavior is often displayed on articles which are not listed at ARS, nor do they attract the attention of more than a single ARS member, but on the off chance I am wrong I believe ArbCom which would analyze the behavior of most active ARS members would be in order - but that ArbCom should not focus on CANVASS concerns, but on AGF/BATTLEGROUND/POINTless voting with GOOGLEHIT-like results, and judge whether some ARS members should not be topic banned from commenting in AfDs/PRODs/etc. If ARS would go, it would be simply unfair, as I think 'deletionists' can still monitor various DELSORT lists - but we would be taking away the main DELSORT list that 'inclusionists' have. Let them organize, just enforce that they behave like responsible members of the projects, not warriors for the holy cause. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Complaining about Google is utterly absurd because every AfD contains search links to Google and the participants are expected to use them; especially the nominator. Per
    WP:CONRED, "The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects." The problem is that, in many cases, it appears that such a thorough search is not done but nominators are rarely sanctioned for this. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    The converse is also true though. e.g. at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Wikimedia_movement you pasted the titles of 12 sources. After putting in the effort to get access to the first 6 (some were rather obscure to access so I'm not sure even you had accessed them) it turned out 4 didn't even contain the phrase, and some didn't even contain 'movement'. The other two were written by WMF staffers. The next 6 seemed equally dubious, but I didn't spend time going through those. You didn't respond to defend your listing of any of these sources. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • When searching, it's best not to require exact hits on precise phrases because a concept may often be described in different ways using different words. That's the difference between an encyclopedia and a dictionary, as explained by
      WP:GOOGLEHITS, which is the use of search counts rather than specific sources. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
      ]

      So are you saying that you've checked that in each of those 12 titles you listed, the concept of a Wikimedia movement is defined such that the source is relevant to the AfD, but in different words (not using 'movement')? Such that if I asked you to list out the pages of each source where that's done, at the time, you would've been able to do so? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

      At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fomalhaut in fiction Andrew built his argument on a source he called "detailed", that after closer examination proved to be a) in Chinese and b) off topic. That's not "googlehits" - it was a single "hit" one of the lowest possible denominator. What excuse for this "argument" can be found here? I'd love to hear it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

      Wow. Just had a read through that AfD. Seeing things like that really test the limits of asssuming good faith and unfortunately lead me to suspect

      WP:NOTHERE. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

      ]

      • As explained by Conrad and countless others, "It’s only those who do nothing that make no mistakes". Busy editors cannot therefore be expected to have a 100% record. Piotrus nominates numerous articles for deletion, claiming that they are not notable. Naturally, they are occasionally mistaken – see Toto (Oz) for an egregious example. If editors are not able to challenge and contest such assertions, then these errors will slip through. The process requires both sides of the argument to be presented and thrashed out. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

        Let's avoid straw mans. Nobody is saying deletion nominations cannot be challenged. But challenges - just like nominations themselves - should follow a bare minimum standard. That includes a BEFORE that should go beyond google hits. If you list a source, you should verify yourself it contains a relevant discussion that passes SIGCOV and such, or otherwise preface such a comment with a disclaimer (i.e. saying that you were not able to or had no time to access the full text or such). Please do tell us what led you call an off-topic, Chinese paper a "detailed source" in the Fomalhaut discussion? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Here's a nice picture of
  WP:SAUCE. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• This looks like every other ARS-related thread that makes it to a noticeboard: a mishmash of problems with ARS, problems framed as being about ARS that are actually about individuals, debates over canvassing, examples of lousy !votes, examples of lousy nominations, examples of terrible articles, examples of good articles... it doesn't go anywhere. You might say "ArbCom is the next step for a long-term intractable problem" but here's the thing: there isn't evidence it's intractable. These threads so often close with "propose sanctions about individuals" but where have those threads been tried? I vaguely remember some threads about individual members, but focused on e.g. personal attacks, hounding, etc. which isn't always a good fit. Where are the "X is a net negative in deletion discussions. here are a bunch of diffs. I propose a topic ban on pages related to deletion, which includes ARS" threads? If successful, we can see what ARS can do without that person. If it fails, then at least we can say it's been tried (and been tried recently -- I'm sure there are a couple of those deep in the archives). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Some of the examples here of 'over-canvassing' are exaggerated. It does happen, but simply asking for help finding a foreign language source isn't canvassing. Yes, there's issues with ARS. But there's also some value. Nfitz (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  IMO The canvassing could largely be dealt with if there was a requirement that Template:Rescue list be posted at the AfDs that they are involved in. Changing the wording in their guide to "improving" things instead of "saving" them would probably help. In the meantime it's pretty clear that particular members should be dealt with at ArbCom or something. Outside of that I don't think a few bad apples should lead to getting rid of the project unless they aren't dealt with, but I assume ARS and AfDs would be fine without their participation if ArbCom sanctions them. I'd probably join ARS myself if there wasn't the seedier influences. I bet a lot of other people would. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Seedier!? As it happens, that takes us to the latest entry at

  WP:RESCUE: Seed-counting machine. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I guess it's a bit of a jumble because the canvassing issues really do have their locus at ARS but the other problems-- the decade-long history of falsifying sources and trolling deletion nominators-- are probably concerns with individuals. I'd hope the Arbitration Committee would be able to look past this obfuscation though. Reyk _YO! 11:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The length of this thread is a little mind-boggling in a tl;dr sorta way, but based on my experiences as an NPP/AfC reviewer, I tend to support saving articles (unless they're purely promotional or paid editing/blatant business promotion). WP cannot be the sum of all knowledge if we're deleting articles that actually are notable, even though they may not be extensively covered in mainstream media. I invite the confused to take an NPP training course. We need help with the backlog! Oh, and of special note, WP is supposed to be the sum of all knowledge, so I'll leave this little tidbit and run for cover. . Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 04:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• COMMENT: "Information is not knowledge" - Frank Zappa.

Based on the above discussion, it appears to me that a structural problem exists on the English Wikipedia, and that this is a serious matter which the community is unable to resolve. The matter therefore needs to be escalated to

WP:ARBCOM for adjudication. William Harris (talk) 07:02, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• No, I think it’s largely just a poorly conceived and semi-disruptive but mostly just annoying project, two disruptive/uncivil users, and a couple of others who need to be slapped with a trout for being smug and/or writing moderately dumb and confusing A-Team references. Dronebogus (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  That is your perception, and you are very entitled to bear it. That is not what would be presented to ARBCOM for resolution. William Harris (talk) 07:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Break

• I’d also like to state that my view of ARS has softened slightly upon seeing recent nominations focus on more reasonable topics like “seed counting machine” and the featured “armament of Iowa-class battleships”, instead of just “here’s a
  WP:RUN OF THE MILL soldier, here’s a pointless trivia list, here’s fancruft, TO ARMS AND MOLON LABE” Dronebogus (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • That's only because they're under the microscope. Once the heat's off it'll be about a week and a half before it's back to asserting nominators are morons and/or bigots and dropping in google hits to books where two out of three words in the article title can be found somewhere in the text. Reyk _YO! 15:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just look through all past activity in the past year or so. I haven't changed how I do things at all. If you have a problem with specific editors, then list them and stop grouping everyone together. As I said, most of the AFDs each of us participate in, are not part of the Rescue squardon. Do they behave differently in the ARS then they do elsewhere? Dream Focus 15:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • most of the AFDs each of us participate in, are not part of the Rescue squardon I don't think thats true. At least since September when LB came back, most of the AfDs you participate in are also participated in by at least one other ARS regular. If I'm wrong, let's see the list of AFDs you've participated in since Sep in which no other ARS member participated in. (I think this is true before Sep, too, but there are so many AFDs that I don't have time to run it down.) Levivich 16:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • A quick look through my contributions and searching for the word deletion shows things. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Inverness Athletic F.C. Seasons I voted delete in. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_works_by_Edward_Robert_Hughes, an article I created was nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Wars Theory, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of video games featuring Mario, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pregnancy novels I cast no vote in since I wasn't certain of this sort of thing just made a comment, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of water parks in the Americas, and many others. That's just a quick glance. You could probably count how many AFDs I've been in, and its far higher than how many articles were tagged for help at the Rescue list. Dream Focus 16:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • I didn't say tagged for help at the Rescue list. I said in which no other ARS member participated in. No moving goalposts please. You participate in the same AFDs even when they're not tagged. In fact I think it was shown above that only half are tagged. I've posted lists above where two or three of you have participated. Let's see a list where only you participated without the others. Just over the last 60 days, there aren't that many. But the ones in which you are alone are a distinct minority compared with the ones where at least one other member of the canvassing club is there. "Tagged" is a red herring because ARS doesn't always tag them. (Also, I still am waiting for even one example of an AfD where one of you voted keep and another delete. Not redirect or draftify or merge, just straight keep/delete disagreement. I believe this has never happened with the Gang of Four in the last three years, since I've been here. If it has, maybe only once or twice out of hundreds of block-voted AFDs. Prove me wrong.) Also make your examples from before this thread was opened. Showing me examples from while this thread has been running is a joke (as your links were above), and not the funny kind. Levivich 16:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • I checked before posting those, the others not in them, just me. Dream Focus 16:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Come on DF. Here's what you posted just now:

1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Inverness Athletic F.C. Seasons - this AfD was launched today. After this ANI thread. When you're all on your best behavior of course.
2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of works by Edward Robert Hughes - started after this thread
3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Wars Theory - two ARS regulars (DF and GreenC) both voting keep
4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of video games featuring Mario - ok that's one
5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pregnancy novels - no ARS members voted on this one, though you commented (not sure what that proves since there are no votes from ARS)
6. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of water parks in the Americas - two ARS regulars (DF and LB) both voted keep

So yeah that's one in which you voted that no other ARS members voted. One. Levivich 17:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Well whatever. I didn't look closely enough. Don't really care. You got bots apparently already to search for names. Just search for one name, then count that compared to the ones you found with more than one name. Dream Focus 17:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  That... that's what I did. I'm not saying you're intentionally lying, but when you say that you vote on AFDs alone, that just isn't true. If that's your perception of things, it's a misperception. Go ahead and look through your own AfD votes just since Sep 2021 when LB returned and you'll see that in almost all of them there are at least two of you. That's why everyone says you block vote. Don't deny it, because the records are easy to check. Just stop doing it. Levivich 17:28, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Show evidence and stop making baseless accusations here. I know I was editing for years before LB joined Wikipedia. Many of us follow the list Wikiproject. If you could search for all AFD I've been in that aren't list, and then somehow check for others, then you'd be able to determine what the truth is here. Otherwise you just seem to be saying what you want to believe is true. I remember for years I'd was very active in the articles for manga and Anime, following that Wikiproject's list of things at AFD, and don't recall ever seeing any of the others there. I exported articles with their entire history over to the manga fandom to save threatened ones quite often. Dream Focus 17:40, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Meh, DF and I both follow Lists delsort. We all edit and follow our interests. The guy is allowed to ivote wherever he decides. This thread is a mishmash of grievances, some of them have no merit. ARS has no membership, it has no affiliations. It exists to feritt out one - maybe two articles in a week. The rest of the time we edit in our areas of interest. Just like you do, and everyone else. Lightburst (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Some of them do indeed have no merit, but quite a lot of them do. "ARS has no membership" - do you take the community for idiots? Black Kite (talk) 17:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  He never noticed Wikipedia:Article_Rescue_Squadron/Members and never signed it. But having your name on a list doesn't matter, people show up regardless. Dream Focus 17:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks DF - cool that people made statements when they signed up - I read yours too. For clarity I should probably put my name in there. I see User:Ritchie333 joined in 2012 and said this: Semi-regular dumpster diver saving articles from deletion via CSD or AfD with numerous resulting DYK credits, particular expertise on geography and bands. And I especially like what USER:DGG said when he joined in 2007: The key is balance, and willingnesss to improve articles--if everyone participated in one Afd and fixed one article and found one hopeless article to delete, we could really improve WP. I am going to sign up and say this:

  The first rule of ARS is you do not talk about ARS. The second rule is you do not talk about ARS.

  Lightburst (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  While it's true I did sign up to the ARS early in my serious wiki-career (2012 onwards), I did also quickly disengage from the project in June 2012 when I realised it was counter-productive and could happily rescue articles without being an active part of it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  User:Ritchie333 I have always considered you to be a fair arbiter on the project. The record will show that I trust your judgement. I almost always agree with you on RFA also. I was a bit shocked to see your comments in this thread above, but I gave them appropriate weight based on my opinion of your body of work. I was chuckling about the A-Team pop-culture ref. Not ass-kissing but keeping it real. I still see value in the ARS project, I sometime disagree with things posted there, and many times I post a stinker up there and nobody shows to help. This long thread is an example of long memories and perceived slights. AfD naturally brings drama based on the fact that someone's creation is thought to be unworthy of main space. I understand that. Too many nominators are married to the thesis in their nomination. For an example of a nominator that is not married to the thesis - see Seed-counting machine the nominator is presently adding to the article. It is how things should work. Lightburst (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  For me, I think the point at which I thought the ARS jumped the shark was at or around Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pizza cheese when Milowent yelled at someone, calling them a "pizza cheese jihadist" and later "I'm done with you pizza cheese heathens. I can't argue for 7 days non-stop about whether pizza cheese is independently notable as shown by myriad sources. Famous Evil Deletionist Tarc actually !voted to keep above, so I don't think I can say any more". That's just ... bonkers. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ritchie333: bahahaha. Donny Osmond comes to mind. and Pizza- Do the right thing. put some extra moozarella on that MF and Sh*& Lightburst (talk) 21:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Show evidence and stop making baseless accusations here. Are you kidding me? Scroll up, I posted two lists of AFDs. Levivich 17:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Levivich You're wasting your time. There has never been, even in years past where a number of members were blocked and banned for disruption, any admission from the core ARS members that anything they do many possibly be wrong. Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• If the articles they or anyone tries to improve are improvable to the point of being acceptable they will be kept; if not, they will be deleted. Anyone who thinks we should be more deletionist in an area can influence decisions just as much as anyone in the ARS. . If people show up at AfDs and make no substantial statement about how the article meets (or doesn't meet) policy, their !votes will not be taken into serious consideration. Anyone participating in that project will soon learn what is worth working on. Looking at Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list, some are saved; some are deleted, some are merged--just as would be expected.

The main area of contention at the moment is the individual Tuskegee Airmen--results at AfD seem to be variable , and it would be good to have a discussion somewhere in order to get consensus on the standards to be used.

looking to see who else in the project !voted is meaningless--there are a great many members, most of who are listed to indicate their general support, but, like me, never look at their lists. As background, in 2006-7 there was very great variation in AfDs, much more than at presen; we all were still trying to find practical interpretations of the written criteria. There were at the time some editors repeatedly listing articlews for deletion until they by chance got deleted, and there was a need to encourage each other to opppose them. Most members signed up around that time. -- DGG ( talk ) 19:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: Thanks DGG - I do respect your measured response, and loved your statement in there. From what I see many of the AfDs suffer from lack of participation. When I participated in FOOTY AfDs I realized there was a core that made their own local consensus on every one and ivoted without regard for the guideline. it was a loser so I stopped. I experience the same underwhelming participation in GEO articles. Usually three guys turn up and they have like minds. They are not wrong on GEO, but lately I have disagreed about notability of cemeteries. Sadly there is not a guideline for them. Many things should be deleted and I get that. Lightburst (talk) 20:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If people show up at AfDs and make no substantial statement about how the article meets (or doesn't meet) policy, their !votes will not be taken into serious consideration. We like to think that, we like to say it, but in reality it doesn't happen. And when it does happen (discounting of votes leading to a close against the majority), that gets DRV'd, and those DRVs also get ARS'd, eg Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 October 21. Levivich 19:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah… that isn’t exactly how !vote works. Because, y’know, who gets to decide one argument is more valid than the other in that case? A self-appointed closer? It’s based off consensus, which very much correlates with the numbers. Often you can sway the numbers with a convincing argument (given large enough participation), but in small sample sizes, eh… e: Although I agree that there are times you’ll see a closer who is willing to defy the numbers substantially, when warranted. Sometimes it’s allowed to stick. But such closers aren’t necessarily common ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Obviiously, what counts as policy-based argument can be a matter of dispute. In contested AfDs, usually we do accept a bald statement of a reason unless its part of a group of identical statements. This does give some weight to the number of people, and the dependence of afd -- and WP decisions generally-- upon the self-selection of whoever chooses to !vote is one of the weaknesses of the system, but it is difficult to think of an alternative. However, any close that says it is based upon pure vote counting where the result is clearly contrary to policy should be appealed to del rev. -- Del Rev should be getting considerably more business. DGG ( talk ) 21:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC) � DGG ( talk ) 21:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• There seems to be some stress here on looking editor's history of keep versus delete versus keep votes. Depending on how one tackles AFD, that's not going to tell much. Personally (and unlike many here), I oppose anyone voting one way or another without a good series of Internet searches - 5 minutes minimum, perhaps a lot longer; I think AGF requires that much study into any AFD. There seems to be to many people who'll vote Delete, without much thought. And too many AFDs to ever look at. If I've got time to start looking at AFDs, and at first blush I think it's a delete, I'm not bothering to do enough to cast a vote. If I start researching deeper, and it's likely going to end a delete, I stop. It's only if I take a really deep dive, and conclude it's a delete, that I cast a Delete vote (more often or not, it's only iffy, and then I don't vote, or only comment). It's only when I suspect that there's something really fishy (like people who never actually existed, etc.), that I bother to research enough to do a delete. I don't find deleting a lot of stubs helps the project much. So I focus on what I think should be kept. There's no doubt then that my votes are definitely skewed keep. As I've said before - those that manage to do 30 delete votes in 20 minutes without researching them are a bigger issue. I think this has gone far enough, and should be closed. With no prejudice against future ANI discussions about individual editors (though to me, a lot of the claims above seem cherry-picked and trumped up - like minded people who follow the same lists, might well look like they are block voting - that doesn't mean they are block voting). I don't see how this is anywhere close to being ArbCom worthy at this point.Nfitz (talk) 00:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with multiple editors above, one editor's actions are far more egregious than the other three listed (despite some minor disagreements I have a lot of respect one of their number), I think a detailed review of the most egregious member's conduct is warranted, either here or at a higher more structured venue. But ... this comment sums up the ARS approach, Afds are all about who shows up, and as has been shown repeatedly above canvassing undoubtedly occurs on the ARS rescue list, and then the core ARS membership frequently swamp a discussion with
  WP:!VOTEs). I too think this has repeatedly proven too hard for the community to resolve so ARBCOM is now likely the appropriate venue. Cavalryman (talk) 02:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC).[reply
  ]

  And further, as the core ARS membership have never admitted any fault in any of their actions they should welcome this. Cavalryman (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC).[reply]

  Afds are all about who shows up aren't they? I just demonstrated that in Footy and GEO. If you think one, two or four guys can disrupt the project you have not followed AfD. I deletion sort so I see all the AfDs that come through. My point in saying that was clear by a full reading of the AfD. Tendentious - bludgeoning, by me too probably. And I was finally saying that was enough of our back and forth: Maybe do not cherry pick the one line, it deserves context. Your argument is nonsense if anyone reads the page

  It is all about who shows up and who cares enough to research beyond- the refs are weak...delete. This kind of "yes it is..no it's not" back and forth is mind numbing ...As I said above, you and I are at loggerheads. We cannot agree to apply policy instead of an essay. And we need to wait to see who shows. That is all that matters.

  Lightburst (talk) 02:59, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• In 2019 a few editors (including myself) suggested changes to address canvassing concerns: RFC about proposed guideline amendment, Editor conduct, Inappropriate entries, Suggested template revisions. These proposals were met with personal attacks, defensiveness and a refusal to address the concerns of editors who were not ARS participants so I've tried to steer clear of the project since then. To their credit the more recent entries have been written as requests for article improvement rather than explicit requests for Keep !votes, but this discussion makes it clear that the battleground mentality is still there and legitimate concerns are still being dismissed as nonsense. Although a good idea in theory, ARS functions as a meeting place for editors who bring unnecessary drama to AfD and create work for others who must deal with their fallacious arguments and bad sourcing. Shutting down ARS would allow members to do their article improvement work without all the drama, which seems like a win-win. Editor behavior should also be addressed on an individual basis. –dlthewave ☎ 03:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• All this project seems to do is impart its participants with an attitude of superiority (e.g. framing deletion !voters as "destroying the encyclopedia") and an often-successful pathway to garnering a numerical advantage in keep !votes (refbombing either the discussion or the article itself). The latter is especially problematic as it muddies the perception of sourcing for later AfD participants and forces someone else to review all the new refs for quality and coverage, which are often decidedly not met. While both these behaviors can and would happen without ARS, I think the existence of the group only encourages behavior that, to many new editors and the outside media, would appear to be officially sanctioned by wikipedia. JoelleJay (talk) 05:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possible solution proposal: Should a SysOp ArbCom be the one to give the final word?

With what is being discussed and the fact that currently all of the final decisions and the outcome's actions are done by an Admin, I think it is time to place some form of higher balance of power into those to discussion boards. I propose that a SysOp ArbCom should now become the one to give the final word, and do the final action, as I never have heard of a SysOp ArbCom breaking the rules or being unjust. Although they are a type of Admin, they at least are more cautious of their actions when compared to other admins. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Admins to not have the authority to supervote in the manner you are suggesting. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pppery:If not then where should this proposal discussion be? Or are you referring to something else when you say "supervote"? Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You stated: "I never have heard of a SysOp breaking the rules or being unjust." I can't tell if you are joking or not. Dream Focus 02:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dream Focus: I am not joking. Even if there were such incidents, then it must be a lot less often than that of admins breaking rules or being unjust. This is because the process for being a SysOp is much harder, and SysOp applicants are more scrutinized than that of Admin applicants. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A SysOP is an administrator. Wikipedia:Administrators reads at sentence one: Administrators, commonly known as admins or sysops (system operators), are Wikipedia editors who have been granted the technical ability to perform certain special actions on the English Wikipedia. Dream Focus 02:20, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dream Focus: Well then, still although they are administrators, those with the title of SysOp usually do act with more caution then regular admins. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you link to someone with that title? Are you thinking of Arbcom? Dream Focus 02:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dream Focus: You were right, my bad, 🤦‍♂️. I mixed up a lot of user levels and privileges. Came back to Wikipedia editing after almost a year. I mixed up SysOp with CheckUser, and thought CheckUser was a different level. But yes, you got what I was looking for, ArbCom. Fixed the title of this sub-section as well. Thank you for pointing out my mistake.  :) Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 03:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think what you're looking for is Wikipedia:General_sanctions. In this case either ArbCom or the community could authorize discretionary sanctions that would allow admins to act fairly unilaterally. In that case, an admin could restrict ARS participants from !voting in AFDs, etc., crack down on continued disruptive beahvior, etc.

For what it's worth, there is a multi-pronged aspect that makes this difficult when summarizing this ANI post:

1. First, members of ARS have had serious behavior problems individually, usually hallmark tendentiousness that wastes community time. That's where the focus on individual behavior comments come in over focusing on the group.
2. The ARS group is also serving as a focusing point for that behavior, so the group itself is part of the disruptive behavior. In many ways, it is easier for the community to place restrictions on the group as a whole because of that because of how intertwined that has become.
3. Others like
   WP:COI
   .

That's why at this point, it does seem like it would reduce disruption for the community by enacting restrictions related to the group as a whole, which the community can do since 1 above so far hasn't been addressed very well by community discussions. Here's the options we seem to have left:

1. Delete the project through
   WP:NOTBUREAU
   is the overriding policy. If there is consensus on the community that the project has become a net negative sink for the community and deletion is best, then it can simply be done. If consensus is that it's a problem, but the project should be made inactive without posts allowed (essentially perma page protection), that too can be done. This would be the sixth MFD though. It could be worth a shot, but the history means the remaining choices would be valid.
2. Community imposed discretionary sanctions on ARS participants. As mentioned above, the community could hand this to admins to impose specific editing restrictions, more easily enforce blocks, bans, etc. like we do in other areas where people are expected to be on better behavior rather than doubling down. We could also just directly authorize a narrow editing restriction here that participants of the project must not !vote at AfDs, etc. There's been some discussion on that already, so someone better versed in that than me is free to directly propose a broad vs. narrow sanction in a new section that could bring this ANI to a natural close.
3. ArbCom. They can either impose discretionary sanctions themselves, propose specific remedies, or both. Considering MFD has been tried multiple times, and dealing with problematic projects is not something the community can easily do, this would be a valid time for ArbCom to take it up. Someone could try MFD one more time independently of all this, but if someone proposes a community authorized sanction and it fails at this ANI, then ArbCom would be the only choice left.

That's enough text from me, but this section does bring up the point that we're practically at the point the discretionary sanctions are the only way to handle it unless the MfD route bears some fruit after a sixth nom. KoA (talk) 06:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discretionary sanctions helps with volume. There is no volume problem here, there's just no consensus of what solution to go for, and perhaps not even consensus that there's a problem. Someone needs to clearly lay out the problem from the massive wall of text above, and from there a solution can be devised. It could be that there is no problem here, it could be that the project is fundamentally flawed and needs to be disbanded, or it could be that certain participants are the problem and require individual sanctions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discretionary sanctions helps with volume. There is no volume problem here the recurrent issues at AFDs say otherwise, especially with the under the radar sniping, etc. (though often not really under the radar honestly), canvassing, etc. At this point though, no one should really be arguing there isn't consensus there are serious problems within the group. That's well documented already. The issue is what remedy is needed or really feasible at this point. As already described above, it's not an either or issue. There are issues with the group as a whole and issues with individuals within. Neither can be ignored at this point. KoA (talk) 18:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ProcrastinatingReader:The problem the OP raised, is a problem that has diverse points of views that sometimes are conflicting with others point of view of the problem, and that is the main problem. One person may view the problem as specific users are only causing the problem, while another person may view the problem as systemic in the AfD noticeboard itself. The only people known to be able to fix and rectify problems like these are ArbCom. However, as it was stated at multiple points in the wall of text above, this problem had been found multiple times in the past and were fixed. Nevertheless, it seems the problem just keeps coming back. Thus the only fix as I stated in the begining of this sub-section, is for ArbCom members to be the final ones to give the decisions on discussions on AfD and ARS, and also to be the ones to carry out the task decided by that final decision. This makes it unlikely for the problem to come back up again. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 20:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We need sanctions against at least one member of the project who is disrupting deletions in a

WP:POINTy way, and ArbCom is the way to do it. I don't think the community at AN(I) is able to review the evidence of disruption, plus ArbCom's evidence page is a better place to present said evidence. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Well ... look. We are now seeing proposals to tban the most egregious ARS offenders from the deletion process. And that's not only the right thing to do, it's the only method of producing concrete improvements to the situation. Because whatever some of us think about ARS -- and trust me, I think no better of them than the most militant of you do -- "banning" the group is not only the wrong thing to do, it's a futile thing to do.

In the first instance, to remove ARS is to tacitly claim that every single member of it is disruptive and acting in bad faith. No one has proven anything of the sort, and that's a tough charge to sustain. I would want to see some vast evidence for it.

In the second instance, as others have said, it just won't work. The group can go underground or off-wiki, and no one could do a thing about that. Or they can simply pop up again with a shiny new acronym, and no one could do a thing about that either. Some ARS members are talking about a witchhunt. The best way to scotch that charge is not to have one. Ravenswing 21:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]