Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1137

(edit conflict) I'll be clear on this, hoping the comment won't be long: I opened this thread because you casted aspersions at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#WP:VENRS RfC, cut and dried. This has been a persistent issue that I have warned you about and before coming here and I specifically asked you to strike the accusations, which you have not done. If I have attempted to avoid further content disputes for the time being (Operation Gideon and outlets articles), but the aspersions have continued in the form of yet another request for comment, it begs the question: when will it stop? Addressing the issue here is a first step, and withdrawing your accusations for the RfC is still pretty much an option. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Striking that I will open an ANI. There is no need for it as previous users have said that we are both responsible for these disputes, so I won't add on to the fire. My interest in Venezuela-related articles was limited to the reliability of sources after there were concerns related to Peruvian topics. I seek to distance myself from both topics in the future as they were not why I initially began my editing.--WMrapids (talk) 23:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment from ActivelyDisinterested

I was going to try and ignore this discussion, but as I've been pinged I'll comment. WMrapids has an issue with

I have no problem striking those comments. I did not know if there was such a policy requiring me to do so, but as a gesture of good faith, I'm more than willing. WMrapids (talk) 19:43, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL both make comments about how to treat other users. Personally if another editor is working in a way I feel is negative I'll raise it with them and if they disagreee either drop it or (if it is actually problematic) I would raise it here with appropriate evidence. Making continued accusations against another editor on talk pages or noticeboards doesn't foster a good editting environment. I feel that if you struck those comments it would certainly be a step towards de-escalating the situation. This is only my personal advice though, I'm just another editor. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords

° 19:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested: Also, I attempted to remove the templates from multiple RfCs believing that it would end the discussion (see here and here). The new RfC is genuinely an attempt to achieve more inclusion as the other discussions had already stopped. Sorry for dragging you in here and your recommendations are appreciated! WMrapids (talk) 19:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the best direction, as other editors have already replied to them. Best to let them run there course, and work from whatever consenus emerges. Also the current RFC at RSN has many problems, I suggest closing that one. Once the others have closed maybe start an RFC with clearer objectives (specific details of VENRS that you disagree with) and a much more neutral statement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:03, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there is a formal RfC at RSN, just an outline of topics that I was concerned about, so nothing to really "close". I'll keep the neutrality in mind for opening statements in the future. WMrapids (talk) 02:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

WMrapids, I told you months ago in one of these many discussions somewhere that you needed to slow down and better understand processes, policies and guidelines. I'm pretty sure I told you that before you started editing a BLP, which is not a place one should go when one is on a roll about a topic like VENRS. And your excessive pinging of the world to every discussion is another bad look. Would it be possible to get you to agree to 1) stop with the personalization and casting of aspersions towards NoonIcarus, b) refrain from editing BLPs of Venezuelans for the meantime (you need to be either better versed with Venezuelan common knowledge or how to follow policy and guideline, and no one remotely associated with Venezuela doesn't know who

WP:BLUDGEON, and e) stop the pinging of the world and other borderline canvassing? Your actions have now spread from articles, to the reliable sources noticeboard, to WP:AN, and are probably making it very unlikely that anyone will want to wade in to those RFCs anyway (I sure didn't). If the personalization and bludgeoning stops, I won't press for a topic ban from BLPs, but I don't think you should be editing there. SandyGeorgia (Talk

) 01:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• We should blow up the VENRS essay and scatter it to the four winds. It is the hobby of a small number of editors which is misused to justify the insertion and deletion of text. There is already a process for assessing the suitability of sources.
• The Caracas Chronicles was mentioned somewhere in the middle of this mess. It has been used in many Venezuela related articles, including BLP's. As far as I can tell, the heaviest user is Kingsif (talk · contribs). However, Noonicarus has used it as a source a number of times, including for BLP information. SandyGeorgia has also used it as a source. In the interests of transparency, I have also used it once.

Burrobert (talk) 12:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Your input is unsurprising here; "the hobby of a small number of editors" are words you might contemplate more carefully. I'm most interested to hear I used Caracas Chronicles once, and would like to see a diff for either context, or so I can correct that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"Your input is unsurprising here": keep your eye on the ball, not the editor.

"the hobby of a small number of editors": I went back three years. These editors had a small number of edits during that time: SandyGeorgia (1 edit on 7 August 2023), Ira Leviton (1), ReyHahn (6), John of Reading (1), Buidlhe (1), Kingsif (6), Novem Linguae (2), Stephenamills (1), Wilfredor (1). WMRapids bravely entered the fray on 5 June 2023 and has made 47 edits, a large number of which were reverted by Noonicarus. The remaining several hundred edits over the last 3 years were made by Noonicarus. Burrobert (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You did not supply a diff for where, as you say, I used Caracas Chronicles as a source. We all make mistakes, and I'd like to know if I did.

Based on what I've seen at Nelson Bocaranda in only three days of engagement, essentially everything WMrapids has written has needed to be removed, substantially corrected, or has outright bias POV and faulty sourcing and original research, so I'm unsurprised to hear that NoonIcarus has had to revert often. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

As expected, your diffs show I have not used Caracas Chronicles to source text. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

As suggested earlier, the VENRS page is largely

Your use of Caracas Chronicles came in those heady regime-change days of February 2019. You created the article Juan Andrés Mejía containing an External link to an article in CC. The link is still there.[51] You also used CC as a reference when you created the article Responses to the Venezuelan presidential crisis. The CC reference you used is still on the page and a second reference has since been added.[52]

You may also be interested in Noonicarus’ use of Caracas Chronicles as a source. Here is the list:

Poverty in South America [53], Economy of Venezuela [54], Cine Mestizo [55], Greg Abbott [56] (On September 15, 2022, Abbott sent two buses with 101 migrants detained after crossing the U.S. border with Mexico, mostly Venezuelan, to the residence of Vice President

Btw, I am not saying either you or Noonicarus did anything specially egregious by using CC. I only mentioned it because you introduced the subject with respect to WMRapids. Burrobert (talk) 14:47, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@

WP:CONSENSUS before plowing ahead. WMrapids (talk

) 02:25, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Your diffs of my use of Caracas Chronicles show nothing more than I expected, which is that I have never used Caracas Chronicles to source text.

• Juan Andrés Mejía has Caracas Chronicles in external links (feel free to delete it if you think providing something in English for our readers as an External link is inappropriate).
• In this diff, where I am copying from another article, Caracas Chronicles is used to provide a translation from Spanish to English, and for that purpose, it is not unreliable.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Stalled with feedback from only one independent editor

[Note: The above section header does not belong to me, despite my comment following it: it was introduced in a refactor/reorganization of the discussion by another editor. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 02:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)]

It seems we're now talking about two issues, so let's try to tease them apart and see what we can say about each. With regard to WMrapids' conduct that lead to this discussion, they seem to have made a substantial (if somewhat protracted) mea culpa above: they have struck some content, made apologies for others, indicated an intent to take feedback on board and revise their approach to certain issues, and said they have no particular attachment to the topic area where the issues giving rise to this report arose and that they are looking to exit involvement there. It does seem to me, based on a reading of the above and a superficial follow up on the diffs, that their conduct did cross the line and was moving towards tendentious. But at the moment I'm not sure what more is to be done in light of their responses: they've done more than enough to justify an extension of

WP:ROPE

in my opinion. Does anyone substantially disagree with that, or can we say that part of the discussion is resolved with, if not exactly complete satisfaction to those who were on the receiving end of the aspersions, at least enough to let the matter go with the hope of real change from WMr?

The second issue is VENRS. This is nuanced. VENRS is undeniably an

WP:disruptive

if pushed in certain ways. Anyone who has so much as cited VENRS in an edit summary in order to justify a possibly controversial addition or removal of content probably will want to rethink that perspective and habit, since (again, per the relevant policy) this 'guidance' has no more effect than the opinion of a single editor. Anyone who has gone further to try to leverage VENRS to justify an edit in an edit war or to try to shut down discussion on a talk page or bootstrap their personal opinion with the "consensus" of VENRS (and I don't know if that has in fact happened) has definitely stepped into problematic territory.

Unfortunately, because of the weird place that the community has chosen to host the Advice pages guideline and discussion of the relevant distinction between

WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on an individual article's talk page (or a policy talk page or noticeboard) vs. advisory discussions at a WikiProject, unfortunately this distinction is often lost on new editors durinjg onboarding (and even sometimes experienced ones over time). We really should have moved it to its own policy page a decade ago, frankly. But for those who don't know, there was past mass disruption that necessitated making this rule a formal one, so by all means, subscribe to VENRS if you think it makes sense, and repeat it's arguments on individual articles if you think they are sound. But do not wave it like a talisman indicating "consensus to do it this way with regard to all articles of type X". That's a one-way ticket back here to ANI. All that said, it seems to me that the remaining content issues can probably be resolved at the relevant talk pages? SnowRise ^{let's rap}

00:56, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Snow Rise, you made no mention of the BLP issues, which WMrapids is still not understanding days in to this discussion. At the NPOV noticeboard, hours after your post and with many reminders about BLP, WMrapids puts forward a source for a BLP described by The Guardian as a "pro-Maduro tabloid". Yes, WMrapids has gotten much more polite since this ANI, but the tendentiousness has not abated, and a polite POV pusher is the most concerning kind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

That discussion is taking place at RFN, not in the edit summaries of an edit war or some other inherently disruptive discussion. Why should we take action on what is basically a content dispute between the two of you, one which at the moment no other editors have weighed in on, and in which you have actually outpaced them in volume by about 7:1? WMR's relatively tepid and single comment in that discussion does not rise to the level of tendentious by even the most liberal reading, in my view. Let alone disruptive to the point of validating sanction or other action. If you are that confident of your view on the matter, why not let the discussion play out? Clearly the two of you have diametrically opposed views on a few things here, including the two most recently discussed sources in particular. But the mere fact that you feel BLP is implicated does not obviate the need for discussion. So long as WMR does not violate

WP:ONUS in some sort of way, they are merely participating in process at this point. If they do edit war, by all means let us know immediately. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

06:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Snow Rise don't look now, but I always outpace others because "brevity is not the soul of my wit" and it takes me ten posts to make one. :)

It doesn't help that I have to digress in the midst of a neutrality discussion to explain reliability in relation to BLPs. [64]

The VENRS discussion in my mind pales in comparison to edits that defame living persons. The BLP issues at #Case study and #BLP vios continue date to August 7 and 8 (only four days ago). Until the NPOV noticeboard posts within the last few hours, I would have agreed that we are making enough progress on the BLP issues to close the thread, as no further content issues have occurred. But with discussions (eg at NPOV noticeboard) sidetracked by an ongoing failure to understand BLP, it becomes less likely that others will engage a topic already made difficult because most sources are in Spanish. I don't think we're done here and wonder how progress is possible without more input from Spanish speakers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:52, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@

WP:BRD to be respected I believe the best alternative would be to have the articles original versions and discuss based on them. Kind regards, --NoonIcarus (talk

) 20:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, without question the status quo versions (if they have been longterm stable) should be left as the standing versions during the BRD cycle, until consensus for the changes has been achieved. Anything else is likely to fall into the category of tendentious edit warring and refusal to follow process, in most circumstances.

That said, I continue to have concerns about how all of you seem to be approaching dispute resolution with regard to the specific articles and sources involved here. In my opinion

WP:LOCALCONSENUS issues on individual articles, and yet at the same time, this amount of debating those same points on that talk page for the essay is going to make you all very attached to the conclusions you form there and very inclined to leave that space expecting you can use the page as shorthand to win "consensus" arguments on particular articles.

It's all very much likely to funnel you all into disruptive loggerheads. Most of this discussion should be taking place on the talk pages of the articles in question, with the WikiProject reserved for coordinating and notifying about those discussions, not as a space to centralize the discussions themselves. To the extent that you do need broader forums to resolve some issues, RSN, NPOVN, and the talk pages of relevant policies are where those discussions should be focused. I'm a little concerned that I'm observing the slow build up to a 'VENRS' ArbCom case some ways down the line. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

06:36, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:RSN and to minimizing disputes. Second, talk pages of articles have been used inappropriately in the past for RFCs, so don't want to encourage that. Third, the activity you describe as necessary is also happening at article talk pages. Encouraging more use of talk is a good thing, and it's good the aspersions have stopped as a result of this ANI. I'm seeing discussion on previously empty talk pages, and issues coming up that go back years including paid editing. There are very few editors in this area, and help is needed. Venezuelan-topic editors have sought that help, here and at other fora.

But fourth and most importantly, when the NPOV noticeboard has been used appropriately when a difference reaches the level of needing feedback, while feral cats are all the rage, Bocaranda just above the cats (exactly like this ANI) has gotten not a single independent response (other than you and Actively Disinterested). Same applies to the BLP noticeboard. So if this is a "slow buildup to a VENRS ArbCom", we can thank the whole community for not engaging while Venezuela-topic editors have used the appropriate fora, and I would encourage the arbs to reject a case for that very reason. We're asking; no one is answering. Even an acknowledgement that others don't weigh in because they can't read the Spanish sources would help, because we would at least know if that's the problem. Thank you for at least responding. SandyGeorgia (Talk

) 14:15, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

That all sounds pretty reasonable--well I'm not sure why the particular RfCs you cited were not appropriate for article talk pages, but otherwise, I follow your reasoning. I'm sorry you all are having trouble flagging down more community involvement: as you know, some areas just get hit by a dearth of available man power for periods, even with abundant sourcing to work with. Perhaps I can do something small to help: would an extra hand translating sources improve feedback for when you have need of a

WP:RfC, the noticeboards, or anywhere that you trying to get eyes on the sourcing? I'm not perfectly fluent, but proficient enough to deliver polished translations, which I used to do more regularly. I don't know if you feel that would actually do a lot of good in these circumstances, but please consider it a standing offer if a translation by someone not involved in the underlying dispute would be helpful. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

16:02, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Any additional eyes to help with conflicting opinions is always welcome from me. I always advocate for additional participation to help establish a more accurate consensus. Thank you for navigating your way through this discussion as well! WMrapids (talk) 16:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm very happy to be of some small help with feedback. I think you made this discussion much less intractable than it could have been, by being open to striking some comments and amending your approach in some respects from early on. It made a big difference here, I feel. As to any additional bit of help I can offer to you guys, I think I may be more helpful in the role of a neutral for setting up any RfCs on the sourcing issues, or translating sources or some such. But if you disagree at any point and feel a

WP:3O happens to be the most helpful thing I can supply to the process, please feel free to ping me. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

18:09, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer! But I'm not (yet) sure translation help is needed, as it's not clear that is the problem. Also, while (many) years ago, I routinely complained about the quality of Google translations, they have now gotten to a point of being generally usable.

I was left wondering if the NPOV noticeboard might have gotten more response on a simple question (are these sources due weight for this content?) if it hadn't had to veer off into explaining the use of tabloids to source a BLP. So we still have no community feedback there; that's what's needed, but the 3O offer is also a good one. Thx, again, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

"Also, while (many) years ago, I routinely complained about the quality of Google translations, they have now gotten to a point of being generally usable.

Yes, now that you've said it, that does seem obvious now! I guess I am still adjusting to this reality: all my adult life the ability to produce translations for multiple languages has been a value-added skill, generally separate from but useful for my main work which I could interject to offer for help here and there. Presumably it was much the same for many similarly-situated, going back through generations of our forebearers. And now, very suddenly, the same results are trivially available (with increasing reliability, at least in the basics) everywhere. I guess my mind is still catching up with that. Thing is, even when talking just about the immediate future, it probably won't be nearly the last task with analytical elements that I am used to occasionally doing that I will now have to get used to being done through automation. Will I sound old, wistful and slowing with respect to keeping up with the times, if I opine that the times, they surely are a'changin'? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:11, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yep ... but thanks for the offer nonethelss, as I do still worry that others have not jumped in for the translation issue. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Respectively, I think we should be done here as I have agreed and participated in plenty of discussions with these two regarding improved content.

WP:GOODFAITH that their edits will improve in the future. For Sandy, maybe you should take the advice you gave me and slow down too? Again, I’m saying this with with the best intentions and in an attempt to focus on collaboration. So let’s just all drop this. WMrapids (talk

) 21:05, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I've already mentioned my position regarding the ANI. Avoiding to talk about content (particularly seems some of your claims can be easily disproved), I don't appreciate the accusations of a "double standard" unless they are discussed in the article's talk page before, as the main point of why the thread was opened can be pretty much in effect until it is closed. I look forward your feedback regarding my last proposals on the topics. As for the dispute with Sandy, I cannot comment much on the activity about Bocaranda's article (at least in the recent days). --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said, my intention was to be as respectful as possible when raising this concern, but it's important to

good faith that we can move forward and that lessons were learned. WMrapids (talk

) 01:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

What boomerang? Even if nothing else comes of this ANI, getting the aspersions and BLP vios, along with acknowledgement of maintaining the consensus version during the BRD cycle, to stop was worthwhile. I do see that Burrobert continues to allege ownership because most of the edits were NoonIcarus's, even though the talk page shows ample engagement from others, with NoonIcarus being the one to make the edits. This is similar to the FAR of J. K. Rowling, where I show up as the author of a lot of content because I was the one who installed the consensus version developed on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Burrobert is correct about some of the reports and the “consensus” is dubious at best. And like the poster, who you say you’re “friends” with, your behavior has been questionable. Though I appreciate and accept your apology, it seemed half-hearted and somewhat similar to

WP:CIVIL in these situations. Again, this is in no way to be condescending, but while we are all here, we should all work on improving our behavior and civility in order to collaborate more effectively in the future. WMrapids (talk

) 15:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Alright, that's all fair enough--and the last point in particular should be taken to heart by all involved. But that said, the back and forth is leaning back towards passive aggression again. And for the record, you really shouldn't keep making a point of saying that you are being cooperative because you didn't file an ANI against someone else who was discussing your conduct here (if I am reading that correctly). It's true that that's the right thing to do in the circumstances, but it would have been disruptive to have done so anyway: anybody who is involved in the underlying dispute can have their conduct reviewed in this discussion, so counter-filing would have been perceived as retaliatory and unhelpful.

That said, my initial inquiry was whether or not the other parties here were satisfied with your response to the need to avoid aspersions, and it seems to me that with fair caveats (going both ways) everyone here seems to be a willingness to move forward and try to work together. The major concern right now (and I honestly do not yet feel up to speed enough on all the ins-and-outs to know whether to endorse or reject this claim) is that your sourcing may not be up to snuff for some BLP purposes. Under the circumstances I feel like I can only ask you to be open to the possibility.

WP:BLP is afterall regarded as a cornerstone of content work on contemporary issues. But again, we seem to be sufficiently back in to the content side of things at this point, that I think further discussion should return to relevant talk pages. Please consider running RfCs if you are still at loggerheads on the same couple of articles in a few days. If you do not have experience with that process and are at all unsure about the formatting or approach, please let me know and if it is helpful to you all, I will consult with each side and draft a prompt which hopefully fairly and neutrally presents each side's arguments as to the acceptability and sufficiency of the sources. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

16:36, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree and thank you for your help. No more responses from me here (unless something major happens). WMrapids (talk) 16:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

It's unclear to me why WMrapids believes this conversation on a topic completely unrelated to Venezuela and unrelated to WMrapids about an article in which I have no interest in participating required an apology at all-- I offered one anyway just because apologies never hurt when one has been short. (On an earlier question, the RFCs on the talk pages were going to generate no more than the same local consensus.) Further, I did not say I was friends with any poster; I made a joke about arepas. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I propose to turn this case to

WP:Arbcom. -Lemonaka‎

06:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Seven days and still no feedback on the BLP question at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Nelson Bocaranda. If some folks would not mind glancing in there, perhaps we could get the related ANI closed up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

It just hit the news, the Justice herself has been editing her own article and allegations have been made of edit warring on her part. I'm not seeing an edit war, but there is a bit of heavy activity as of today (14 as of now). Can someone look into this, before we get a circus and perhaps, semi-protect the page now that it's in the news?Wzrd1 (talk) 18:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I've semi'd the page for three days and will watch after the protection expires to see if the activity resumes. Thanks for the report. — Diannaa (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Bradley_(justice)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rlgbjd

208.87.236.201 (talk) 19:24, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The article currently states that the account and subject are the same person, plus the editors talk page, and a report at COIN. All of this is based on one article at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, which is turn is based on a tweet from an anonymous twitter user. Some BLP eyes might be useful. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article did also include an interview where Bradley confirmed she used the account. Muhibm0307 (talk) 21:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks your the second editor to point out my mistake, I'll just slink of somewhere before EENG spellcheks my post. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll just slink of – See

WP:ONEGOODGOOFDESERVESANOTHER (Corollary 1). EEng

01:49, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

You missed spellcheks my post. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{Source assessment notes} 02:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I scan left to right and stop at the first mismatch. EEng 02:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• I think there's enough sourcing now to include details about her editing of the article in the article itself. EEng 02:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @EEng: I see that this is now included in the body, but has not been mentioned in the lede. I am wondering, does getting caught in the self-editing (or perhaps directed editing) of one's Wikipedia article generally merit mention in the lede? BD2412 T 13:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I don't really think so. I mean, it's a big deal to Wikipedia, but in the grand scheme of the outside world, most people don't care about it that much. Joyous! Noise! 14:27, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

    I don't believe it should be lead worthy, unless the case is egregious. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 19:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

    I've removed the section. This happens every time someone edits their own article (

    WP:DUE make, especially on a BLP. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed}

    ] (she|they|xe) 21:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

    @

    WP:DENY situation. Calling out those who manipulate Wikipedia in the most forward context possible (noting it in their article, and where it is substantial, in the lede) will discourage such behavior generally. BD2412 T

    19:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

    Article content is entirely separate from user conduct considerations. To the extent that we have upheld BLP and our core content policies by omitting from articles the fact that their subjects are/were long-term abusers. More broadly, we do not use articles to "name and shame". We are an encyclopedia, not a wall of shame. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:34, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

    But it's not just user (editor) conduct -- it's conduct of the article subject as well. And I can see some logic to using articles to name and shame when the shameful behavior occurred on Wikipedia itself. EEng 22:34, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

    We don't give ourself any special status in our articles. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed}

    ] (she|they|xe) 23:58, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

    But what shame is there? WE are aghast because it's a violation of a WP policy, and we know that because we fiddle around behind the scenes all the time, but the average person who reads something like "...and she was caught EDITING HER OWN ARTICLE..." would immediately think "Yeah? So what?" Joyous! Noise! 03:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

    I'm not sure that's true. My sense from following a number of these stories over the years is that a politician (and this justice is an elected official afterall) editing criticism out of their own article is something that is likely to be perceived as socially dubious behaviour--and it's likely to get even more attention where the political figure in question is already a contentious one. I guess you can label me as rather on the fence about discussing these events in general, and in this case with the sourcing to date, but there can come a time when the

    WP:WEIGHT doesn't give us much choice but to mention such happenings. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

    02:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Surely we should also block the account for undisclosed COI editing and/or edit warring? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  Neither of those usually results in a block on the first offense. And the username is her initials plus "JD", so not exactly an attempt to deceive. Plus the account hasn't edited in 2 months. Warnings should suffice for now. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  I take your pro forma point and all, but the behaviour still seems pretty clearly

  WP:NOTHERE to me. SnowRise ^{let's rap}

  04:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)