Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions

Wefa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After two attempts at subtle POV pushing on Talk:Libs of TikTok [1][2] they dropped all pretense of editing in good faith or respecting NPOV and posted this:

I have given up on this article. The discussion archived above has amply shown that the cognitive divide has reached such an extent that we seem to live in different universes. Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children (which by definition is always involuntary since children can not possibly give informed consent to something destructive and far reaching like that). So while folks like me, who are disgusted and revolted by what these hospitals do to children, see LOT as a courageous whistleblower and critic, the above mentioned group sees her as a hatemonger and is motivated to paint her in the worst light possible. There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to.

In such a situation, especially with the "paint in worst light" part, Wikipedia's policies just do not work. The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no policy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences. The mostly lefty administrators and the various informal councils make sure of that.

And that is that. We as Wikipedians collectively get the Encyclopedia we collectively deserve, and right now, that picture is less than pretty. All I can say on this point is good luck with this article. Wefa (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Which to me says that they're not just done editing that talk page but its time for them to say goodby to the project as a whole, I guess I would accept a topic ban from anything related to sexuality, gender, or politics but they appear to intend to disrupt more than just those topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a DS notice for

WP:ARBGSDS. Not looked into the comment much more than to see it was under the scope of that DS. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 14:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

This person hasn't disrupted anything, and they're arguing for NPOV, so I don't see any reason to ban them from anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 18:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not an argument for NPOV. In fact, it's the opposite, a call to slant the article towards the conspiracy theory. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is hardly evidence of anything. In my personal experience, no person who ever tried to go against NPOV in any serious capacity (i.e. not straight up vandalising) did so by openly stating that they have an axe to grind. Ostalgia (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a poor look, IMHO, to hand someone a topic ban (or worse, an indef) for no other cause than that he's expressed sentiments on the talk page that you don't like. The best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 00:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fair point, and I am not sure I favor a ban, but when you start accusing your interlocutors of being in league with "Mengeles," to my mind it is something more than expressing a sentiment that people don't like. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless they set off carving a path of distuption across the encyclopedia, there doesn't seem to be any point blocking, and while they have been playing at the edge of stuff that can get users banned, they haven't gone there yet. Based on what they've said, they might have been NOTHERE (on that page anyway), but they apparently aren't there anymore anyway (i.e. they left). Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 06:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That was yesterday and they didn't leave, they were removed[3]. Note User talk:Shibbolethink#you hid my talk page text on Libs of Tiktok where Wefa castigates @Shibbolethink: for removing their rant from the talk page. Also note they're now disrupting their own talk page, how is this not carving a path of disruption across the encyclopedia? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Treating them preferentially because they've invoked baseless conspiracy theories is a bad look, its effectively a get out of sanctions free card. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't commenting here but they don't seem all that worried about our enforcement action... From their talk page (emphasis added):

You are basically making my point. That article is constantly changed without consent, against the objections of a the conservative editors present, and no editor nor admin saw need to call out, let alone threaten, the editors doing that. AGF was immediately violated by other editors who called my position transphobic; "transphobic" itself is a left wing fighting term trying to pathologize dissent. There is no such phobia, conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else.

But as soon as I point out the discrepancy, as well as the fundamental problem with editing Wikipedia under such circumstances, several people jump at me, you with all your administrators might threaten me on my own talk page. Where was such threats/warnings for those who called all conservatives "transphobic"?

Yep. Thanks for making my point. Wefa (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Fringe editors who can't set aside their fringe beliefs have no business editing the encyclopedia because they are incapable of consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you're referring to this user's apparent belief that people with XY chromosomes are men and people with XX chromosomes are women, I don't think that can be called fringe for any standard definition of "fringe". Korny O'Near (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Generally wikipedia's definition of

WP:FRINGE is things which aren't accepted by mainstream medicine, science, and/or academia. Such as the opinions you just elucidated. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Wew, you're just going for every checkbox on the "how do I get banned" bingo, aren't you? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I agree with editors here that Wefa's conduct is disruptive and pretty clearly not here to build consensus. It amounts to the my way or the highway style of argument. But I also agree that the best way to deal with this editor is to stop giving them what they want. This user engages in long drawn out time-wasting culture war arguments. So why don't we all stop engaging? Either they will run out of steam, or they'll edit article space against consensus or in a disruptive manner, thereby justifying their own

you would be wrong in your assumption. My note on that talk page was to explain why I would refrain from further editing the article, and was prompted by someone else's comment on the talk page asking for my input. Unfortunately someone had deleted my comment from the talk page near instantly, so the majority of editors there probably did not even see it. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the best course of action is to just let it go. I'm not seeing anything particularly actionable. I just see an editor who is tired of being contested, which is fairly understandable. When you get into the weeds of controversial or political topics on WP it's hard to internalize that we aren't here to preach the truth, we're here to aggregate information from public sources. I think just letting them storm off is best for everyone. GabberFlasted (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Wefa: It's best to just not make such editorializing comments on talk pages. Just state your opinion about the content dispute and move on. That's all you can do. If you continue to make such comments you will likely be topic banned rather soon. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 01:49, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• that is basically clear to me, too. I just underestimated how fast the Wikipedia landscape on that matter had changed. Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees. I explained here - clearly I think - why in the context of Wikipedia, its rules, and the people currently interpreting and enforcing those rules, editing under such circumstances leads nowhere. I originally came there to make a suggestion to improve NPOV, but went down in flames quickly.

BTW - thanks for the ping - I had missed this debate here completely. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's unfair to claim that Wefa is NOTHERE. They've done good work on a wide range of articles through the years. That doesn't mean that they aren't about one poorly-worded comment from a long-term DS block, though. Stop comparing other people to Nazis, take a break, edit articles that aren't going to raise your (and everyone else's) blood pressure, and keep being a valued member of the community. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to."

That is one of many such comments, and though you do not say it explicitly, I would caution against seeing this as weighing their other "good work" to this disruption. The net positive fallacy is pervasive, and is unhelpful.

The comment, and others, aren't even an attempt to discuss what's supported by reliable sources, it's pure culture war soapboxing. It should be considered in the context of the harm caused, not in the context of their other work.

It's one thing to disagree on how we include reliable sources, it's another for Wefa to compare people to Nazis when they disagree with him. Accusing other editors of being part of "the left's propaganda arm" when consensus is against them, is also not constructive, nor are the many other implicit and explicit accusations of bad faith.

The trend here, i.e. Wefa's insistence that people either agree with him or are acting in bad faith, is not indicative of intent to contribute constructively to Wikipedia. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 17:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I don't weigh the other good work against the disruption. I just say that the other good work tends to invalidate the NOTHERE accusation. You can be HERE and disruptive at the same time. Wefa has been very thoroughly warned of the community expectations at this point: it's their choice if they're going to listen or if they need to be separated from the community for a time for the good of the encyclopedia. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thats fair but someone can also be NOTHERE and have made productive contributions to the project. This isn't exactly new behavior though, two years ago they were at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard with a very similar rant about "The current debate climate is not conductive for a solution. For the time being we have to live with Wikipedia's erosion of NPOV, and see it slowly become Leftopedia on political matters. And that includes the constant low key disparaging of conservatives in their respective BLPs."[4] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2018 at Talk:Rape in Islamic law "the article goes to great lengths to 'not' spell out what Islamic Law thinks about the rape of slaves, even though we can guess it from peripheral parts. This is unencyclopedic"[5]. From what I'm seeing in their edit history the vast majority of their edits are not constructive at least from 2018 to the present. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support
  WP:NOTSOAPBOX warning. Levivich (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Considering the message posted by
  gender and sexuality seems more appropriate. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 20:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Agreed. I’m in support of a topic ban from gensex with a warning for wider soapbox issues. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 21:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• We have lots of editors in the GENSEX topic area, of all manner of POVs, who are good at separating strong private feelings from their encyclopedia editing. This does not strike me as such an editor, and an indef GENSEX TBAN under DS seems reasonable. I've been minimally involved (viz. I made two "gain consensus first" reverts) in a dispute over whether puberty blockers are chemical castration, so probably shouldn't be the one to impose that sanction, if only to avoid an appearance of impropriety; but if another admin wishes to do so, I think that would be in keeping with recent "jurisprudence" in the GENSEX area [6] [7]. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Whilst I did suggest that a siteban or siteblock wouldn't be helpful, a TBAN most certainly should be on the cards. If they aren't going to voluntarily keep out of a contentious area which they have obvious issues with editing in accordance with policy on (including soapboxing on article talkpages and their own talkpage), they need a TBAN. I'd say that, in WP:ARBGSDS, they show signs of not being there to build an encyclopedia, but in others, they are definitely constructive. By stopping the distracting stuff, hopefully they will be more helpful in the areas where they are HERE. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm really struggling to find helpful edits in any area post 2018, it almost looks like two completely different editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Most of 2021 looks fairly reasonable. What am I missing?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  That there are only 19 edits in all of 2021 perhaps? Their very first edit in 2022 was POV pushing at Soy Boy[8]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think a GENSEX TBAN is a bit tough at this point. At least give them another chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 00:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I actually don't think it's a bit tough. I just really want to give them a chance to fix things themselves. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GENSEX TBAN: Wefa

I feel like it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other whether to move this to

Already expressing opinions above: Ravenswing (generally against), Vermont (for), Mako001 (not against), Iamreallygoodatcheckers (against), SarekOfVulcan (not against). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as proposer. I'll reïterate my comment above that we've already had two DS TBANs this year for similar conduct. [9] [10] -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Wefa has acknowledged the issue and have been adequately warned. I have no reason to believe more restriction is needed to prevent disruption to the encyclopedia. Give them a second chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 22:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  How is Wefa coming to ANI to say "Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees." at all describable as having "acknowledged the issue"? Or this comment, the other response to this ANI thread. It's the exact behavior that resulted in Wefa being brought here and it's this singular interest in discussion over ideology rather than sources which necessitates a TBAN. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 00:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The editor made a couple soapbox edits on one talk page. When he was confronted about it here he said that it's "basically clear" to him that he needs to stop. The quote you mentioned is Wefa explaining how they view Wikipedia and the topic have changed recently; he hasn't been editing much in the last few years. It's reasonable that he might be a little rusty and ignorant to Wikipedia standards today. There's no evidence of sustained disruption in the GENSEX area by this user. Therefore, a topic ban would be more punitive than preventative. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So, he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, and he has come to AN/I to continue to show that he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but no disruption would be prevented by banning him from GENSEX discussions? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 03:52, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  "he has come to AN/I to continue to show" isn't accurate; he was brought here, he didn't come here to continue to show anything. It'd be different if he had inserted himself into a dispute that didn't involve him. Levivich (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - I've read through the proceeding discussion, and some of Wefa's other contributions. I think a topic ban from GENSEX content is the right call here. To editors who believe we should not topic ban for just talk page contributions, I'd point out that actually in practice we do. To quote/paraphrase from
  civility policy. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support Wefa lacks the sensitivity and tact required to edit in this topic area productively and collaboratively. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: I'm not seeing where -- and there haven't been any diffs to demonstrate -- (a) Wefa has made ban-worthy objectionable edits to articlespace, or (b) where he's continued to make objectionable and explosive comments to article talk pages in this line. I'll reiterate my statement from above: the best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 10:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The thing is, we are discussing a topic ban, not a site ban. It is clear from Wefa's talk comment quoted above that they disagree profoundly with both the enwiki community consensus and the consensus of reliable sources on key questions in the GENSEX topic area, to the extent that they are willing at least to make a public thought experiment about

  contributing to a collaborative project. Wefa's comment - conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else - is essentially an assertion, against all the sources on the topic, that transgender identity does not exist. Editors can believe what they like, but bringing their pastafarian or flat earth beliefs into the determination of article content in this way is inherently disruptive. Newimpartial (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Meh, Wefa had made all of 20 edits in 2022 before this. AFAICT, ~1,500 edits over 18 years and there apparently has never been a problem before, until Sep 19, 2022, when Wefa made one offensive forum/soapbox-y article talk page comment and a second, similar user talk page comment; the sentiments were repeated a third time in this ANI thread above. Wefa hasn't edited in the past week. I don't think going straight to a TBAN for two disruptive edits (not counting ANI) is merited, particularly for an editor who barely edits. What are we preventing? I see no reason to think this problem will be repeated, and if it is, the proper mode of action is a full NOTHERE site ban (or block), not a TBAN. But for context, here's a perfectly fine comment from earlier on Sep 19, and another from Sep 11, I do not see any kind of ongoing pattern outside of two edits on Sep 19. They barely edit; most of their edits are fine; the disruption is limited to two comments posted on one day; I continue to support closing with a warning but a TBAN is too much paperwork for this. Levivich (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support are we seriously just going to give this user a slap on the wrist in this topic for comparing transgender care to Josef Mengele? There is no way Wefa can edit this area in a civil or reasonable manner. Dronebogus (talk) 04:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• It's bizarre to see opposes based on "too much paperwork" and what amounts to
  WP:DENY. Not only does Wefa compares their fellow editors to a Nazi figure and denies the existence of trans people, they clearly refuse to work within our policies and guidelines and sources go against their point of view, which can be seen on this report and on this earlier discussion on a topic in the same DS area. They are clearly a net negative on this area. Isabelle ^{🏴‍☠️} 10:13, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  It might be bizarre if any opposes were based on the premise of "too much paperwork." Would you care to point any out? Ravenswing 19:02, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I guess she's quoting me, but I don't really oppose a TBAN, so much as I just think a warning would be better than a TBAN ("too much paperwork" == "not worth the editor time to administer"). (What I really oppose is no action.) Levivich (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Warn per Levivich, although further disruption would merit a topic ban. starship.paint (exalt) 10:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Tamzin. —VersaceSpace 🌃 16:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Wefa has shown they do not have the neutrality necessary to participate in this sensitive area. Should they develop that sensitivity at a later date, they the community can always re-evaluate, but for now- they are not a net positive contribution in this area and I am not convinced they have realized what the problem even is. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Support Let me make it clear that I think a topic ban is completely appropriate…if we had an active editor here. The lack of activity on a long term account suggests that this isn’t going to prevent that much disruption. With all that said, I don’t think Wefa would be able to edit collaboratively on that topic should they become more active, so I’m supporting the ban. I also want to make it clear that it’s okay to have opposing views regarding stuff like this, and a TBAN simply for different views would be invalid. However, when you express those views in a soapbox post on an article and user talk it is no longer appropriate, just like it wouldn’t be if someone made the opposite argument in a soapbox comment on a talk page. Talk pages are to discuss improving the Wiki, the comparison to Mengle is nowhere near that. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per above, and the fact this thread is still going with no resolution — haven't we sunk enough time into this? — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 22:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per the above. AKK700 02:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose after seeing an editor above repeating "he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion" a couple of times. Since when is only one opinion acceptable in a discussion? A discussion requires people from both sides of the aisle, so to speak, being allowed to express their opinions, not just one side humming in unison. TBANning someone for daring to express an opinion that is very far from being fringe, and shared by a very large number of people violates the principle of freedom of speach, and Wikipedia is supposed to be free, and not censored. And please don't call me transphobic or anything like that for daring to oppose a TBAN based on the principle of freedom of speach, because you have no idea where I stand on GENSEX matters. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  One opinion is not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but more than one opinion is also not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, because

  WP:TALK guideline. There is no freedom of speech on talk pages. The reason I support a warning (and oppose no action) is because it is not OK for an editor to express their political opinions on article talk pages. (The reason I prefer a warning over a TBAN is because it's a first offense and hasn't been repeated since.) Levivich (talk) 15:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  @Thomas.W: are you saying that a very large number of people believe that doctors who provide healthcare to transgender people are the equivalent of Josef Mengele? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I hate to say it HEB, but that's probably true. First, trans people aren't exactly widely accepted in the US or in the West--in some parts, sure, but a majority? Not sure. Second, think of the rest of the world. A majority of the world still doesn't accept homosexuality; I doubt a majority accepts even the concept of gender identity (as distinct from biological sex). Heck, I doubt a majority of the world even accepts interracial, interreligious, or interethnic marriage. Sad but probably true. Levivich (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Theres a difference between not accepting it and thinking that contemporary doctors are in general comparable to the absolute worst that industrialized, putatively civilized, man is capable of. I will desist because dwelling on it puts me in a dark mood. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  We don’t pander to cultural relativism on Wikimedia. There was one admin on Amharic WP that was extremely homophobic, as is typical in Ethiopia (where Amharic is principally spoken) and he was still banned from WM. If you’re a vocal bigot, you’re out. Dronebogus (talk) 11:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  lol, "pander to cultural relativism" is a funny way of saying "tolerate other people's cultures". I guess it's just your culture we should tolerate? This is why I (and others) don't support promoting NONAZIs beyond an essay. Sure we can all agree about being tolerant of people regardless of their gender identity (or sexual orientation or ethnicity), but what about... [insert list of divisive cultural issues]? This is a slippery slope. That's why our "rule" isn't "you must agree with Western values," it's

  WP:NOTSOAPBOX, as Tamzin explains below. "Bigot", like beauty, is too often in the eye of the beholder. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I don’t see why I’m supposed to take seriously someone whose first word in their response is “lol” Dronebogus (talk) 08:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, it's a good thing then that transgender existence and transgender health, like evolutionary biology and vaccines, are topics where WP's content is to be based on reliable sources and not on opinion polling. Newimpartial (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  To be clear, this isn't about TBANning someone for having the wrong opinion. Plenty of people edit constructively in the GENSEX area—as all areas—despite having strongly-held controversial views. It's not even per se about admitting to having that opinion in a talkpage discussion. I don't think we'd be here if he'd said, in passing in a discussion, "Personally I think all of this should be illegal"; that would go against NOTFORUM, but not in a way that usually leads to sanctions. No, this is about someone using talkpages to rant about their political views. The fact that those views are divisive makes it worse; it is immaterial whether they are right or wrong. If someone were saying "All people who oppose puberty blockers for transgender youth are doing so purely out of a desire to drive them to their deaths", and then doubling down as Wefa has here, I would support sanctions there too. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with you Tamzin but if you read DB's comment above, it isn't at all clear that this isn't about TBANing someone for having the wrong opinion. DB is expressly saying the opposite. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  No, I was refuting that your apparent

  appeal to the majority and appeal to cultural relativism to excuse (but not endorse) an egregious statement (that transgender care is morally equivalent to Nazi human experimentation). I might’ve been wrong to say “bigot” instead of “bigotry” (since it’s the offensive, extreme statement itself which is the problem here, not what the user and their opinions) Dronebogus (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I would’ve let this slide if Wefa hadn’t brought

  godwin’s law into this mess; personally I find their general subject commentary grating and inappropriate but not ban worthy. Dronebogus (talk) 08:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I haven't excused anything and don't try to turn this on me because I disagree with you. Levivich (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support due to their comments here. Gusfriend (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I find it ridiculous to consider banning a user for making a single talk page post that, as far as I can tell, does not violate any policies. I'll grant that Wefa's language is somewhat hyperbolic, but their basic view - that performing surgery or hormone injections on children under 18 in order for them to look more like the opposite sex is immoral - is a significant mainstream view, and probably even the majority view around the world. Not that I'm a fan of banning people for their views in any context, but to ban someone for holding this particular view makes no sense. And no, I don't think they disrupted anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  An editor who trivializes and ridicules gender-affirming surgery ("getting surgery is a choice, just like running for president") should probably not be offering their opinion about what forms of POV advocacy are or aren't disruptive, and it is questionable whether such an editor ought to be participating in GENSEX TBAN discussions, at least not by !voting. Newimpartial (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure you know what "ridicule" means. Korny O'Near (talk) 21:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'd go with the act of making fun of someone or something in a cruel or harsh way. Comparing access to gender-affirming surgery to being eligible to run for POTUS strikes me as both cruel and harsh. Newimpartial (talk) 21:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. IMHO, just the idea to put transgender care and Josef Mengele in the same sentence would justify a TBAN from all gender-related materials. —Sundostund (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Oppose no serious violation, he expressed himself, let's move on instead of targeting him for his opinion.Lmharding (talk) 08:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - the statement Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children is essentially a statement that Wefa's feelings about the topic take precedence over what reliable sources actually say about the topic, and that because editors are unable to concede that the sky is actually puce, that this is a problem with the Wikipedia community. Elaborating such solipsistic views on WP Talk pages is inherently disruptive, and people who are unable to concede that their personal reality has diverged from the reality documented in reliable sources are
  not qualitied
  to participate in WP in areas where they are unable to restrain themselves in expressing their, umm, idiosyncratic POV.
• I would ask those placing "Oppose" !votes why they think the TBAN is a bad idea - do they want to see Wefa make more such comments so that we come back here again? There is no suggestion that they are likely to comport themselves any differently on this topic in future... Newimpartial (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As one of the "Opposers" - I see no problem with the way they have comported themselves, either in talk pages or in articles. We accept people with all different political opinions here, as long as they make reasonable edits, and that seems to be the case with this user. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It probably doesn't hurt that you share their opinion about the immorality of trans healthcare. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no policy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences.

  This is not a reasonable edit - it expresses the editor's opinion that their personal intuitions, rather than a discussion of sources based on WP policy, ought to determine what NPOV means in a specific (ACDS) domain, and that because the editor is

  able to contribute to a collaborative project, at least not in this domain. Newimpartial (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  The user was clearly making a rhetorical point about double standards, not actually threatening to engage in an edit war. Ironically, by calling for banning them, I think you're making Wefa's point even better than they could themselves: people on the other side of the argument (about Libs of TikTok, etc.) do routinely revert changes without consensus, but this user risks being banned for just talking about doing the same thing. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You are nicely sidestepping the question, "what is the consensus among the reliable sources on this topic?", which is where the "two sides"

  WP:FALSEBALANCE civil POV argument goes to die. Newimpartial (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Depends on the topic, of course. Given that this user doesn't seem to have made any bad edits to any articles, this seems like a strictly theoretical discussion. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no reason to excuse disruptive POV rants on Talk just because an editor doesn't follow through in article space. Newimpartial (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: I tend to agree with Ravenswing's view here. I would warn them per Levivich but removing them the first time they screw up in expressing their views isn't going to result in articles written from a wide ranges of edits. If they haven't been taken to ANI in the past them give them some leeway and help them learn what is/isn't OK. Springee (talk) 18:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will appreciate your insight here on the article Parga. Despite expressing my opposition to the use of extremist source, Xhufi, an extremist far-right Albanian politician known for his extreme bias against foreign countries and nations and for his nationalist propaganda, editors keep edit warring to have that scholar used regardless of whether other editors have expressed their legitimate concerns about that particular source. Furthermore, they haven't waited for consensus on the talk page, and are quick into reinstating the disputed source to the article even though they were supposed to discuss, not brute-force their new source to the article. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute resolution available to you. Cullen328 (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• SilentResident, weren't you going to do a report to determine that Xhufi is not a reliable author? Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made? Super Ψ Dro 12:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Third party academic scholars informed me that they are preparing a detailed analysis on Pëllumb Xhufi's reliability. That's why I am not rushing right away for the RSN because more material on the politician, can prove always helpful for Wikipedia to understand whether this person is reliable as a source. Not that the content and evidence found already thus far, isn't sufficing for the RSN to determine.

You stated "Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made?" but you are reminded that a growing number of WP:RS already disputed and challenged Xhufi's credibility but the users chose to ignore this, insisting -without presenting proof to Wikipedia- that Xhufi is reliable. How is Xhufi reliable when editors havent provided any WP:RS supporting Xhufi in face of the WP:RS that have discredited Xhufi's objectivity as a scholar? This is not okay I am afraid. Until the RSN concludes on Xhufi, the legitimate concerns over Xhufi's reliability may not be ignored and the legitimate concerns of editors are not less legitimate. There is no such guideline stating such a thing. In our case here the users wanting to use Xhufi's work, are fully aware about the WP:RS disputing Xhufi as a WP:RS and have two options: 1) to either provide WP:RS defending Xhufi as a reliale author, or 2) provide WP:RS debunking the other RSs discrediting Xhufi's reliability as an author. The users have done nothing of that. Instead, they chose editwarring to add Xhufi without wp:consensus to the articles and by ignoring the concerns of verification. The editors are reminded that

WP:VERIFY

is a core content policy in Wikipedia and when there is no consensus for using a particular source, then the editors are asked to provide independent third-party sources verifying that information provided by the extremist politician. This helps addressing any editorial concerns adequately IMO.

If it is wrong to have legitimate concerns over an author (whose credibility is questioned by other scholars) and to ask just for any third party independent RS, then please correct me because I have read again and again the Wikipedia's guidelines on WP:VERIFIABILITY and there is no such a thing as a guideline recommending that this Core Content Policy can be superseded by personal editorial POV(!) which can ignore the WP:RS(!) discrediting an extremist politician. This is just the pure definition of "not okay", if you ask me.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of talking about "tagteaming" and "Albanian accounts" here, try one of the dispute resolution ways. Cheers,

Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

The dispute resolution is supposed to be followed by all editors, not edit war to brute force your unreliable sources instead of waiting for dispute resolution like how you did now. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What? I am not involved in that content dispute and I did not revert you. It seems that you are very confused at this point.

Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

You are. Sorry. Lack of direct editing on the specific article doesn't exactly make you any less involved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You must be kidding. I hope you are not blaming an "Albanian account" for the actions of another "Albanian account". In any case, it is not clear what you are trying to say and what do you seek here at ANI/I, and it is clear nobody will solve your content dispute here.

Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Per the points raised here by

WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". It doesn't say force it on until a consensus disapprove of it. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

PS. As regards the denialism that Xhufi represents far-right extremist viewpoints, perhaps objectors could enlighten the community by distinguishing the views of far-right Albanians from the views of Xhufi, and where they are on record as opposing his works. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSN as you know. Asserting over and over that he is unreliable without going to that noticeboard is not acceptable. So, either go to RSN or drop the subject. It is also not acceptable to belittle other editors for being Albanians. Do not ever imply that another editor should be disregarded simply because of their ethnicity. That is unseemly and disruptive. Cullen328 (talk) 18:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

P. Xhufi is quite active in local national rhetoric (in TV shows etc.). Statements such as this [[13]] show clearly that he is personally involved in promoting a national agenda: he does not hesitate to accuse the Greek government (since the creation of the Greek state) of anti-Albanian activity. Definitely this isn't the kind of neutral scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you considered posting a RSN? Cullen literally said "the place to make that determination is at WP:RSN". Alltan (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 Without prejudice over anybody's national identity, I have read every comment on this thread including the all-important original post. I infer that SilentResident was basically using this noticeboard to say, "the behaviour of numerous editors is unacceptable" and may have hoped that admins take a deeper look into who is doing what. Although conventionally it seems that this project page is normally focused on one accused person. This time he was saying that a team of about three are slithering their way across multiple articles and posting dubious material. To that end it is not an ANEW matter in the strictest sense, and with regards RS debate, it is definitely the case that no less than one person is violating ONUS as I stated above. So in SilentResident's situation, I'm not sure myself where to have gone to raise complaints about one cabal operating widely. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328 and Coldtrack:Thank you both very much. Now if you allow me, just for clarity: as soon as I get my hands on the new Autumn 2022 reports on Xhufi by Western scholars who view that politican as unreliable scholar, you have my word that I will make haste for the RSN. Just like how you said, there is no Wikipedia guideline suggesting that consensus is not necessary until the RSN. And to clarify that when I say "Albanian accounts": I am specifically talking about accounts focusing specifically on the two Albanian Topic Areas: Albania and Kosovo; It is important to make a clear distinction on what the term Albanian refers there. All the accounts involved into brute-forcing Xhufi into Wikipedia, share a common characteristic in the sense that they are mainly editing the 2 Albanian topic areas. Its important to make this clear because - my mistake- I assumed everybody would understand that, since obviously it makes no sense to refer to them as "Albanian accounts" in an ethnic sense - that makes no sense, since I can't verify the nationality of editors nor it matters for Wikipedia, nor I know anyone here caring at all about Ethnicities. But I am referring to these accounts in an Topic-Area context: it is a common characteristic of the

@Coldtrack: There is large scale tendency to promote sources such as Xhufi, while on the other hand removing multiple academic publications that don't fit with Xhufi's POV. One example is the removal of published works by A. Spiro (linguist of the University of Tirana) with the excuse that he doesn't agree with the national POV as Ktrimi explained [[14]]. Removals&reverts are performed in wp:TAGTEAMING fashion, as shown here: [[15]]. Also several wp:RS have been removed due to the same as part of the same fashion (to name a view scholars: Skendi, Vakalopoulos, Hasiotis, Tsiknakis, Kofos) in favor to POV narratives by Xhufi. Those editors that insist on the removal of those authors never filled an RSN they just resort in TAGTEAMING.Alexikoua (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peloponnese

@

SilentResident, please name the members of this "cabal" or "tag team", provide diffs of the most problematic edits, and inform those editors of this discussion. Cullen328 (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328 Sorry to bother you but may I ask if the diffs have to be from a specific article only? Because the issue spans multiple articles such as Parga before Peloponnese, and even Greek War of Independence before that, and more. I'm mentioning these 3 articles here for now because they are fresh in my memory and happen to be the most recent cases, all of them occuring during the current month, September 2022). If any clarity is provided on the criteria for the diffs you seek as to determine the range of diffs allowed to present here, that will be appreciated and I will try to do my best. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident, no, the diffs do not need to be limited to one article, but they should clearly show the problematic behavior. Cullen328 (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those are disputes where many editors from Greece and Albania find an interest to edit. SR will only show some diffs of "Albanian accounts" reverting "Greek accounts". @

Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Ktrimi991, that is why I am asking for evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Ktrimi991

, if you are aware of any issues of editorial misconduct, then it will be appreciated if you bring them to the admin's attention.

Now, if you allow me, I can't help but express my concerns about your reply's tone suggesting a culture of collective responsibility by pointing that "other sides did that too". You are reminded that no side has immunity from the project's rules - everybody here is to be scrutinized for their actions, including me (per

WP:BOOMERANG

) and that's a fact.

In case you missed what my concerns here are: is the fact accounts appearing collectively in certain articles the Greece topic area on articles which most of these accounts never edited before (since their focus is mainly the Albania topic area), yet are quick to edit war instead of discussing and seeking a compromise, at the expense of Wikipedia's guidelines, consensus and dispute resolution procedures. Resulting in all these articles in the Greece topic area having currently a revision not reflecting a talk page consensus, and the newly-added content to them isn't the result of compromises between the sides, is rather a revision imposed. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ⁽talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of such walls of text, post what you think is evidence of "tag teaming".

Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Instead, we have unsupported assertions that an Albanian academic is unreliable (maybe he is and maybe he isn't) and unsubstantiated accusations that unnamed editors who work on Albanian topics are misbehaving. To say that I am unimpressed at this point is an understatement. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow morning to find ample evidence. But so far, nothing. Cullen328 (talk) 06:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have my sincere apologies for making you wait. It is not intentional, just I am back from my work in real life and I do not have access to my PC from work. Since you clarified to me that the report doesn't have to be limited to a select few articles, and since the issue spans more articles than the fingers of our hands, its obvious that I will need some time to prepare the large report. In this context, I was hopeful that the ANI can give me the required time to work on the reports on an issue that has been spanning in time range not a single month but whole years? If the ANI is eager to close the current discussion, thats fine, I can open a new one once I have it ready. I speak only for myself though, I cant speak for editors Khirurg and Ktrimi991, though, whether they got their/any reports to submit and if they can do that even faster than me, then maybe the ANI can give them a chance.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not willing to make "tag teaming" accusations here; after all those are controversial Balkan topics that can easily attract attention from editors. Editing an article is not illegal. In any case, I am waiting for the evidence you and Khirurg will provide. If admins judge it is of value, I can enrich it with more evidence. There are many cases to be discussed in that case, not only among "Albanian accounts". But I really doubt admins will find your evidence of value; as I said, articles are open for editing to every editor. Just editing an article does not make you part of a "tag team". And even if one does see "tag teaming", proving it is extremely difficult.

Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Sorry for the slow reply. I don't know what happened between you and Khirurg last November, but I have my serious concerns and I am not alone here; such concerns are shared on the ANI by least 2 other editors too, which itself is more than enough to require ANI attention this time. If indeed there is no tag-teaming as you claim, then there is nothing the other editors may be afraid of. The report will be submitted and left upon the Admins to evaluate. If the Admins deem these incidents to not be a case of Tag-teaming and conclude that there is no such behavioral pattern, then the filler ought to trust and accept their judgement and offer a honest apology to the other editors for which these concerns are about. In mean time, it is recommended that all editors familiarize and abide by the Wikipedia's guidelines, because even if the Admins do not deem these incidents or what happened at Peloponnese to be a case of tag-teaming, still is a serious disruption violating Wikipedia's guidelines regarding dispute resolutions and consensus-building, not a mere "Just editing an article" as you might think here. Now if you excuse me, expect no more responses before the report's submission. It is just "walls of text" as you said. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its not the first time you make such accusations and like I said sometime ago, this is just

WP:WITCHHUNT! I hope this time ends once and for all because I am sick of it. Taking part in those hot Balkan topics is normal for anyone. All of you do the same even in Albanian related topics from the north to the south and no one has accused any of you of Team Tagging. Some of you has taken part in discussions about the name of some unknown towns in Kosovo, which to me is quite bizarre to say the least, but no one has ever accused you of something. Now you are accusing "Albanian accounts" why the take part in Albanian related topics? Several Admins has intervened in lot of those discussions and for the most part, changes were confirmed and the articles were improved. Have a good day! -- Bes-ARTTalk 16:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• 1.
  International Recognition of Kosovo, 7 reverts in ~48 hours by 5 different users. Article history: Initial, non-revert edit by Uniacademic [16], revert by Ktrimi991 [17], Maleschreiber [18], S.G ReDark [19] (a relatively new user who had never edited the article before), Ktrimi again [20], Ahmet Q. [21], Ahmet Q. again [22], followed within minutes by Durazz0 [23], who prior to that hadn't edited in weeks. Durazz0 in particular is not very active lately [24], but always shows up at just the right time to revert [25] [26], !vote [27], or complain to an admin on behalf of another user [28] [29]. Attempt at dispute resolution in the talkpage was initiated by the other party [30]
  /

• 2. Greek War of Independence, 12 reverts by 5 different users in a 4 day period (not including 3 days of page protection). Article history: Cercok [31], Excine who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [32], Ktrimi991 [33], Cercok [34] (as soon as the page protection expired, Alltan [35], Alltan [36], Ahmet Q. [37], Ahmet Q. [38], Ktrimi991 [39], Ktrimi991 [40], Ahmet Q. [41].

• 3. Amantia, 2 reverts by 2 users who had never edited the article before, within 12 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [42] (never edited the article before), Lezhjani1444 who had never edited the article before, within minutes.

• 4. Parga, 5 reverts within ~24 hours by three different users, one of whom had never edited the article before. Article history: Cercok [43], followed by Alltan [44], Alltan [45], Uniacademic who has never edited the article before, Cercok [46].

• 5.
  Himara [47]: Maleschreiber [48], Maleschreiber [49], Ktrimi [50], Cercok [51], Cercok [52], Lezhjani1444 who has never edited the article before, Alltan [53], Botushali who has never edited the article before, then very interestingly Alltan shows up a few seconds later with a nearly identical edit-summary, then Cercok [54], then Cercok again [55]. The use of an identical edit summary by Alltan and Botushali seems to sugges that they had agreed upon this edit-summary off-wiki (e.g. via live chat) and Botushali beat Alltan to it by a few second. Something similar happened back in June at Kosovo between Uniacademic and Truthseeker2006 [56]
  .

• 6. Peloponnese, 6 reverts by 3 users in 3 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [57], Ahmet Q. [58], Maleschreiber [59], Alltan within three minutes even though he has never edited the article before, Alltan again [60]. Attempt at dispute resolution initiated by me.

• 7. Arvanites [61]: Ahmet [62], Ahmet [63], Botushali [64].

• 8. Epirus revolt of 1611 [65]: Cercok [66], Alltan who had never edited the article before, Cercok [67], Alltan [68], Cercok [69]. Then again several days later: Maleschreiber [70], Alltan [71], Ahmet Q. [72], Cercok [73].

• 9. Dropull [74]: Lezhjani1444 [75], Lezhjani1444 [76], Lezhjani1444 [77], Alltan [78], Alltan [79], Ktrimi991 [80].

• 10. List of Albanians in Greece [81]: Ahmet [82], Ahmet [83], Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before, Ahmet [84], Maleschreiber [85], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, within minutes, Ahmet [86]

• 11. Template:Greeks in Albania [87]: Ahmet [88], Alltan [89], Ahmet [90], Alltan [91], Ahmet [92].

• 12. Struga [93]: Alltan [94], Durazz0 [95], Durazz0 [96], Durazz0 [97], Botushali [98], Botushali [99].

• 13.
  Bratonozici [100]: Botushali [101], Botushali [102], Alltan [103], Alltan [104], Botushali [105], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before
  .

• 14. Piperi (tribe) [106]: Botushali [107], Alltan [108], Botushali [109], Durraz0 [110].

• 15. Kuči (tribe) [111]: Maleschreiber [112], Ahmet [113], Alltan [114].

• 16.
  Bjelopavlici [115]: Botushali [116], Alltan [117], Alltan [118], Botushali [119], Durazz0 [120]
  .

• 17. Pristina [121]: Maleschreiber [122], Ktrimi [123], Ktrimi [124], Alltan [125].

• 18. Messapic language [126]: [127] (note the source falsification about "dialect"), Βατο [128], Βατο [129], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [130], [131]. In this instance, they ganged up on the hapless 3knolls, who had not idea what he was dealing with.

• 19. Bar, Montenegro [132]: Ktrimi991 [133], Ktrimi991 [134], Maleschreiber [135], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber [136], Ahmet [137].

• 20.
  Illyrian Emperors [138]: Ahmet [139], Βατο who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before
  .

Also of note is that as a result of the tag-teaming on the Montenegrin tribes articles (Piperi, Bratonozici, Bjelopavlici etc.), Boki (talk · contribs) eventually became discouraged and gave up [144]. While a bit rash and inexperienced, this user seemed competent and promising, and this is a good example of the kind of result that tag-teaming can result in.

In closing, I'd like to point out that while I fully expect the accused parties to come out guns blazing and counter-accuse, there is a fundamental asymmetry here: Articles such as

As an editor not mentioned, but who very well could be, and someone who 90% of those articles mentioned above have it in his watchlist and followed all the discussions in question (mostly not intervening at all) I can say without a doubt that in absolutely most of the cases the editors were invited in the talk page to discuss the reverts or the changes. And many of them were resolved there with consensus by the editors in question. See for example Struga, Himara, and others' talk pages. What you have forgotten to put here are articles that you have taken part in yourself and resulted in you getting blocked or being warned about it because of your language used against the same editors in TP discussions. All you do whenever you don't like a change or sources like Xhufi is open discussion like this one, remove it at all costs, get the editors blocked, and restore the versions you like. And when no admin supports you, you just start another conspiracy against "Albanian accounts". -- Bes-ARTTalk 22:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Khirurg:, do not forget to notify the editors you are mentioning in your report. They will want to know. Add the following code to their talk pages please: {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ Thank you. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

WP:RS from articles. Now, these reliable sources don't come just from Albanian historians, but are in fact most of the times works by ‘’Greek’’ historians whom some users are always trying to remove. My edit in Peloponnese exists solely because the same users who are always doing such things tried to remove Georgios Liakopoulos, a respected Greek historian from the Max Planck institute from the article: [152][153][154]. What exactly is illegitimate about my edit? Is Khirurg saying that some users can remove reliable sources, but users who have spent hundreds of hours writing about these subjects can't even edit related articles? This isn't even the first report by Khirurg where he tries to invoke interests in common subjects by people who have the same cultural background as a reason to ask for someone to get sanctioned. In an SPI against Ktrimi991 [155]

Khirurg claimed that he is a sock of a banned user, essentially because both are Albanians and are interested in Albanian history.

So what is Khirurg's evidence? A series of edits which show that sometimes user’s who have similar interests, will agree with each other. In the same articles in which Khirurg finds agreement between some users, he should note all instances where all those who agree with each other either don't get involved in an article or actively disagree. In addition, he should note all instances where we find agreement on the "opposite" side of the aisle between users from WikiProject Greece and in fact in all instances (like the Peloponnese article) two or more users from WP Greece will do the same exact edit/revert (including Khirurg). This isn't "tag teaming" or disruptive when done by Khirurg, yet when other users have partially similar interests do it, it can only be disruptive and can never mean just a genuine interest in a subject.

In conclusion, I see one more content dispute which involves Khirurg and other long time users devolving into accusations by Khirurg that they are tag teaming just because they disagree with Khirurg about subjects which (as far as I remember) many of the mentioned editors always disagreed with him. Khirurg has repeated the same accusation in the past when he was blocked and this is the reply he got by admin Bbb23: "Second, you have accused other editors, some who have been around here for a long time (as have you), of tag teaming just because they disagree with you. That constitutes a personal attack. I strongly urge you to amend your behavior, or you will find yourself blocked." [156]

So yes Khirurg, this is indeed yet another outrageous case of editors who are interested in Albanian-related subjects editing articles related to Albanian subjects. A troubling development indeed.Alltan (talk) 00:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This way tl;dr, but just to note that of the 20 articles I've listed, only half are within WikiProject Albania. And that anyway does not explain the lightning quick reverts to articles you have never edited before, like

Khirurg (talk) 03:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Khirurg has listed twenty articles, out of which I (accused of tag-teaming) have edited only four. 4 out of 20... And I am often in disagreement with the people Khirurg accuses me of being in league with, see:

- with Ktrimi here: [157]

- with Maleschrieber here: [158]

- with AlexBachmann here:[159]

I contribute to Wikipedia as I know best, following wiki guidelines and adding RS content. I do not coordinate with anyone. I agree or disagree with each editor based on the merit/reliability of their edits. I am sure I am not an exception. Khirurg seems to have misportrayed the contributions of other editors here just like he has mine. These accusations are simply ridiculous. Çerçok (talk) 13:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The wp:TAGTEAM pattern is way too obvious but what surprised me personally was a strategy of full coordination as in the case of Himara Revolt of 1596: taking turns in the TAGTEAM process. So the revert sequence here is:

• [[160]] Cercok,
• [[161]] Alltan,
• [[162]] Ktrimi (who never participated before and without trace at talkpage), and then again
• [[163]] Alltan
• [[164]] Ktrimi
• [[165]] Alltan

After his 2nd revert Ktrimi991 immediately filled a report against me in order to block me for 3rr, but no wonder this disruptive pattern has been immediately noticed by uninvolved editor @Coldtrack: [[166]] [[167]]

Ktrimi also provides support to the more hesitant (revert)-editors of this team by removing warning messages in their talkpages: Here [[[168]], after Uniacademic performed a rv although he never showed any trace in article and tp before [[ [[169]]]] (as Khirurg noted above). The same support is also provided by Alltan [[170]]) obviously to encourage a more massive and coordinated campaign of this kind.

It is crystal clear that their main purpose is to increase their revert-warring fire power in order to promote a certain national POV and at the same time discouraging multiple editors from productive editing.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: First of all, if my name is going to be brought up, I’d greatly appreciate being notified. Now, in regard to this report, I am actually offended that I am even being mentioned as a part of such a thing. The diffs of me on pages about Montenegrin tribes of Albanian origin are particularly annoying; if you bothered to check those diffs, you will find I was actually the first account to initiate the change on the article that there was a subsequent edit war over which was resolved in the TP. In fact, if you check my edit history, you will notice a lot of my work focuses on Albanian tribes. I have created multiple pages based on this topic and revamped or worked on several other pages also in this topic. Regarding Struga, I really do not see what is wrong. I participate heavily in Albanian-related topics in North Macedonia, which is why there is overlap between me and Alltan, who also seems to participate heavily in such topics. If you check the edit history there, it becomes extremely clear that I have contributed a lot to the page over time, not just for those diffs.

To conclude, the accusations made against me here are baseless, illogical and outright wrong. Furthermore, this accusation of multiple editors in the Albanian topic area working in collusion I find to be a clear application of double standards; multiple Greek topic area editors seem to collude and combine their efforts on small villages and the like in Greece and southern Albania, not that I am accusing them of tag teaming, but it is the same principle. However, what I find revealing is the collaboration of editors who focus on Greek topic areas when it comes to articles in Kosovo, or better yet, Serbia. When regarding the city of Niš in Serbia, which I have added to, Khirurg somehow randomly began to participate in the discussion – despite not being involved in the slightest in the Serbian topic area – petitioning for the removal of sources that discuss the existence of Proto-Albanians in the region [[171]].

Now, there have been many Kosovo RM’s, most of which I have played a role in, in recent years. Khirurg and other Greek editors have shown up together to vote !oppose and have never shown any interest to improve said articles, let alone participate in the general topic area of Kosovo. What should I do in my case? Complain that Khirurg and these other editors are tag-teaming against RMs? Khirurg's post boils down to the fact that there are many editors who are interested in the same subjects in the Balkans and the large majority do not agree with Khirurg regardless of their background. This isn't a problem of wikipedia and it's certainly not a reason to report anyone, but it is particularly interesting to see these editors in the Kosovo topic area. When I was looking at previous RM’s in preparation for my own requests, I noticed editors from the Greek topic area involving themselves in these RM’s which I found extremely strange:

• RM of Peja [[172]], users of note who voted !oppose in this discussion were Khirurg, Alexikoua, and SilentResident.
• RM of Lipjan (initiated by me) [[173]], Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose
• RM of Vushtrri (initiated by me) [[174]], surprise surprise, Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose here too.
• RM of Malisheva (2020, not initiated by me) [[175]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua
• RM of Malisheva (2021, not initiated by me) [[176]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua

For such small, unknown towns to receive convenient attention from the Greek topic area editors during RM requests seems awfully intriguing. Nonetheless, just wanted to get this out there so that all admins may observe the double standard here and perhaps something else at play. Botushali (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Botushali: you provided very few and sporadic edits that go back more than two years ago, nevertheless Khirurg provided solid clear evidence and this concerns quite recent activity. It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above (not simply on voting but on revert warring). Most important this TAGTEAM pattern is massive and quite active as uninvolved editors have immediately noticed.Alexikoua (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua, just as you have the right to edit, revert, remove content so do others and I'm one of the people who has written the most content about these topics, so what's the accusation? I'm editing what I always edit or is the accusation that in this article Cercok and I agree, even though we disagree other times? If that's the accusation, then why you don't you mention all the (daily) articles where you are in disagreement with someone active in WikiProject Albania but nobody else joins the dispute? Where was a tag-team to support Ktrimi when you had a dispute with him in Lefter Talo just two days ago? While we're on this topic why don't you add all the diffs where you and Khirurg monthly do the same reverts? Parga: Alexikoua [177] Khirurg [178] Vuno: Alexikoua [179] Khirurg [180] Albanians in Greece: Alexikoua [181] Khirurg [182] Why doesn't tag-team apply to the two of you but applies to everyone else who you disagree with? Don't all others have the right to agree with each other in some topics or are you and Khirurg the only users who have the right to agree with each other?:Alltan (talk) 01:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Alltan, Khirurg filled a detailed report that concerns wp:TAGTEAM, a disruptive pattern that was also noticed by uninvolved editors at the

wp:NINJA fashion without trace of participation at any discussion as part of wp:TAGTEAM & BRD breaching while even encouraging such a disruptive activity (i.e. removing warning messages from the talkpages) among more hesitant members of the (TAG)TEAM is a serious accusation.Alexikoua (talk) 02:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexikoua, I already mentioned once that decorating your comments with Wikipedia policies and with strong wording such as "crystal clear" do not make your arguments stronger. In your latest comment above this one, you said nothing of importance to attempt and refute Alltan's comment. If you will not engage in real debating, I ask you to desist from writing these comments; what you're doing is called

WP:BLUDGEON. This report is already large enough. Super Ψ Dro 20:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Alexikoua, saying that something is ”solid, clear evidence” does not make it so. In fact, this whole report is a besmirchment of many solid editors included myself, and I expect Khirurg to apologise for even mentioning me in such a way when I devote so much of my time to Wikipedia as a volunteer. Besides the fact that certain editors from the Greek topic area, including yourself, randomly collude at convenient times in completely unrelated RM’s of relatively unknown towns in Kosovo to vote against name changes to the Albanian form (interesting, right?), I also have below a list of recent cross-editing which you would call “tag-teaming” when it doesn’t concern you (again, double standards):

• 18th August 2022, Dropull article: Khirurg [183], Khirurg [184], Alexikoua [185], all in the space of 2 hours
• 13th September 2022, Himariote dialect article: Alexikoua [186], Khirurg [187]
• 25th-27th August 2022,
  Epirus Revolt of 1611 article: Khirurg reverts changes by Alltan made to an addition initially added by Alexikoua [188], Khirurg [189], Alexikoua [190], Khirurg again [191]
• 16th-18th August 2022, Chameria article: Alexikoua [192], Khirurg [193]
• 22nd September 2022,
  Himara article: Khirurg [194], Alexikoua [195], Khirurg [196]
• 15th September 2022,
  Himara article: Alexikoua [197], Khirurg [198]
• 6th September 2022, Souliotes article: Alexikoua [199], Alexikoua [200], Alexikoua almost violating 3RR rule [201], Khirurg [202]

Now, is this evidence of tag-teaming, or is it only tag-teaming when it is not involving Alexikoua and Khirurg? As far as I am concerned, this is exactly what I have been supposedly called out for, but I am not “tag-teaming”. I am editing topics that are relevant to WikiProject Albania, as I have always done, and nothing more. I am awaiting Khirurg’s apology for slandering my name and completely disrespecting the time and effort I put into Wikipedia – such accusations should not be taken lightly. I’ve noticed that he has already been in trouble for this behaviour prior to this report. Hopefully an admin can take control of the situation and stop this once and for all. Perhaps a block or even topic ban would be in order so that Khirurg may finally halt these behaviours that completely disrespect and devalue other editors here on Wikipedia. Alexikoua, baseless statements like “It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above” do not prove anything – above I have provided reverts as well, but is it still too weak simply because it mentions your name? If you are going to accuse me of tag-teaming, I will be disappointed and will expect an apology from you too should an admin clear my name. Using strong wording doesn’t make your opinions or comments superior to anyone else’s, and you cannot simply dismiss things with no valid reasoning. The reverts may not be so bad – but the voting is extremely suspicious and I urge an admin to look into it. Botushali (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm actually there was no 3rr breach on Souliotes if you mean that. You also ignore to state that the above edits were always accompanied by tp participation: in most cases you point there was no more than 1rv per 24h and strictly following wp:BRD, no drive-by reverts or accounts that came from nowhere and simply wanted to support a supposed common national campaign as in the case of Khirurg's extensive report.Alexikoua (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Support a supposed common national campaign..." do you know how ridiculous that sounds? What exactly are you trying to implicate? Even then, most reverts I make I involve myself in the TP discussions for, unless it's not necessary. If you're innocent according to what you wrote above, then so am I. Very flawed report, very flawed comments and very flawed rebuttal of what I have put above. You RV'ed the same change three times (so correction on my part, almost* violating 3RR), and to prevent you from going to four, Khirurg came in to do the RV. If that's the case, I do not know, but had it been me or any other accused editor here, you would consider it evidence of "tag-teaming" due to the double standards you have quite clearly shown during the course of this report. Furthermore, I see that there was no comment in regards to the voting? You know the votes that uninvolved editors from the Greece topic area - who do not edit, comment or patrol pages in WikiProject Kosovo and have never done so - somehow randomly casted (same vote every time by the way, always !oppose) whenever an RM request was made to move a page to its common, official Albanian name? Very strange phenomenon, isn't it? Botushali (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What I don't see in the above walls of text is an explanation for how come you reverted at

Khirurg (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not even sure why you're asking me. I've edited many other articles like Himara and I have it on my watchlist - as I said above I've been monitoring it for a while. Why shouldn't I revert there if I disagree with an edit? Why Alltan copied my edit summary is something which he should reply about but he already has done so as I can see above ("So when Khirurg then brings up an edit summary which I copied from Botushali's previous edit during an edit conflict, it's a distortion of reality which ignores that I both have disagreed and agreed with him and have been reverted by Botushali"). What's the accusation? Unlike you and Alexikoua who always have the exact same reverts, I have been in actual content disputes and disagreements with Alltan and I have reverted him. [203] just a few months ago. Botushali (talk) 04:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've edited many other articles like Himara doesn't explain how you showed up to revert within minutes at that article, despite never having shown any interest before. Your claim that you had been monitoring it for a whileis not verifiable. Your revert of Alltan occurred after first reverting me and insulting me Example text and the matter was referred to ANI [204]. So much more likely that was the reason, than any purported "disagreement".

Khirurg (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I have the article in my watchlist, bud. I've shown interest many times before in articles in which Albania and Greece overlap. Perhaps me monitoring it cannot be verified, but neither can me not monitoring it. The revert - if you look at the source, it did not even indicate what was said, so that's why I reverted Alltan. ANI didn't even do anything about what I said to you because it really wasn't that bad - especially in comparison to you and your track record of disrespect that you have littered throughout TP's and edit summaries towards your fellow editors. This whole report disregards the hard work of the editors you are accusing, including myself. I also would like to point out that you are yet to explain why you and other editors here have voted !oppose on articles that have nothing to do with the Greek topic area - rather, it is a topic area you have never attempted to improve, work on or add to, but conveniently you decide to vote !oppose when RM's are made attempting to move said articles to their rightful Albanian title. All in all, your unfounded conspiracy theories are getting boring and simply tiring - what's next? Tin foil hats? Botushali (talk) 02:12, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Be sarcastic all you want, but rest assured this is just starting, and there will be admin feedback, no matter what. By the way my watchlist has been extremely quiet literally since I filed this report. I wonder why.

Khirurg (talk) 03:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Good, I hope there's admin feedback, and I hope the admin tells you to quit this nonsense. That last line is exactly what I am talking about, not everything is a big conspiracy against you. It's just becoming a joke at this point... Botushali (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: I do not think that the aforementioned articles and diffs constitute "evidence of tagteaming". Someone might do a reasonable assumption that there is tagteaming going on, but the most profound explanation (Occam's razor) is that the users accused are watchlisting the pages. Albanian and Greek history intermingle too much and areas of debate (either mostly Greek or mostly Albanian) attract the attention of both Albanians and Greeks that are interested in history. Cinadon36 10:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The major problem with the report is that it is invoking
  WP:NOTDEMOCRACY
  ). There are many editors active in articles under the scope of WikiProject Albania and they don't coordinate and they certainly don't agree with each other on many subjects, but it's natural that to a degree a common cultural background will translate to a similar understanding of some subjects. This partial commonality is what Khirurg's diffs reflect in the same way that diffs which show Alexikoua's and Khirurg's common reverts highlight another partial commonality in reasoning. Point a) is where major flaws can be found because there is no consensus which these editors share. Others highlighted instances where they revert or disagree with each other. It can't be shown that a "WP:TAGTEAM" - even in a colloquial, non-policy manner - exists if the "members" of the team don't share the same consensus. Khirurg has created a narrative which I'm certain that he himself knows that it can't stand upon scrutiny. I'll highlight some instances which mention me in a very inaccurate way:
  • Illyrian emperors - according to a Khirurg I placed a revert in this article even though I had no prior edits. This makes it seem as if my only purpose for reverting was to support other reverts. In fact, for the past 2 years I have been re-writing parts of articles about individual Illyrian emperors[205][206], so me placing a revert at the list article about them is quite ordinary.
  • Kuči (tribe) is one of the main articles related to Albanian tribes and all editors involved in improving relevant articles have engaged with it. I have written close to 40% of that article and Alltan 14.5%.
  • Bar, Montenegro: Some were reverts were listed, but there was a discussion at RfC about these changes and the majority of editors supported them. There was disagreement and consensus-building which produced results(Talk:Bar, Montenegro#RfC). Consensus-building wasn't circumvented or ignored.
  • Epirus revolt of 1611: Khirurg leaves out the fact that I disagreed with Cercok too [207][208] and changed his edits as well. I've written 28% of the article. How is it possible that two users are acting as WP:FACTION if they disagree and change the edits of each other? A key problem when we perceive any situation in us vs them terms is that we often fail to see that the Others are separate individuals. That 2 editors disagree with a third editor doesn't mean that they agree with each other. This discussion absorbed much time from several editors for no reason and it should at least with a warning that if someone has an issue with a specific editor they should report just that editor to AE where the activity of both can be scrutinized instead of dragging in many other irrelevant editors. Long discussions shouldn't be repeated at ANI without a clear context based in policy. There's always a huge backlog at all boards because of such discussions.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  At

  Khirurg (talk) 02:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I have

  Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist as I've worked on most articles under that list. What is abnormal about me reverting when I was online about a subject I'm heavily involved in? Articles about Albanian tribes like Kuçi are some of the most high traffic articles under WikiProject Albania. I don't know what makes you think that this article could only get attention because of WP:TAGTEAM. It's interesting - from an anthropological perspective - that you consider "trivial", disagreements and reverts between two other editors but when you're reverted, that's when you consider it important. You spent too much time which you could have spent in better ways to write a long post about something which isn't a policy and you couldn't evidentiate even in the colloquial sense. The problem stems from your perception of "us vs. them". You just have to accept that everybody agrees and disagrees with everybody over a long period time. When they disagree with you, it isn't qualitatively more important as to be linked to something more than a disagreement.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I have Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist - I'm sure you do now, but it strains the imagination that you had back then, and there is no way you can prove that, so it's easy to claim. But it's not just one article, it's a whole bunch of articles, and the pattern is always the same. The problem stems from a group of highly motivated and organized users that see everything as "us vs. them", and the diffs clearly show this. And not coincidentally, all this madness started in early 2020. Btw, Botushali only reverted Alltan because I brought the issue to ANI and he was afraid he'd get blocked. The rest of your post is the perfect example of what is known as

  Khirurg (talk) 03:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Can you stop acting like you know everything? I reverted Alltan because he misused a source, which is something I discovered upon closer inspection. You didn’t bring the issue to ANI - ElderZamzam did, but it is interesting that you immediately got involved there, and that Elder recently brought up the Xhufi discussion in a completely unrelated article despite me not being involved in the slightest with the Xhufi discussion. Are you trying to admit something here? I wonder why you implicate yourself as the person who brought the issue to ANI. Additionally, another extremely curious thing to note is that you have not discussed why you and other editors from the Greek topic area have showed up in waves on completely unrelated RM requests in WikiProject Kosovo to vote !oppose against an Albanian-titled article - keep in mind, you nor these other editors have ever shown interest in improving pages regarding Kosovo, you haven’t edited, added to or created articles in the scope of this project but somehow still manage to show up in a group to conveniently vote !oppose when an RM to an Albanian toponym is being voted on. Stop dodging the question and answer truthfully about what is going on there. If it’s plausible, although I strongly doubt it will be, fair enough - I won’t do what you do and act like I know everything whilst dismissing every ounce of reasoning as some big conspiracy towards me, gaslighting (funny that you brought it up) other people in this thread and utterly disrespecting my fellow editors. Like I said, once my name is cleared, you owe me a big apology for wasting my time on your conspiracy theories and shunning my name and reputation here. Botushali (talk) 04:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah sure, it must be a coincidence that you reverted me with an insulting edit-summary, then as soon as

  Khirurg (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I’ve already explained to you that this question can only be answered by Alltan, and as I’ve mentioned previously, he seems to have discussed it in his comment - genuine question, are you senile that you have to keep bringing it up when Alltan has already discussed it AND I’ve already told you that you should be asking him that question? Truly a genuine question and not a personal attack, because you seem to be running circles here with no real argument and just baseless conspiracies. Also, the first part - that ANI report was complete bogus which is why no admin did anything about it, bringing it up is just embarrassing because it didn’t affect me in the slightest. It’s not a coincidence that I make sourced edits and reverts/removals on false information - check my edit contributions. Again, you failed to answer the whole voting in Kosovo RM’s spontaneously in groups thing, must be because you have no response that you can plausibly falsify - we both know something is up there, stop dancing around in circles and answer me now for the fifth time (maybe more), why have you and other editors here (who seem to show up in all articles together with the same exact viewpoints) voted in Kosovo RM’s despite not being interested in the topic, nor having edited or created articles under said topic? Is it only to vote in spite of what you deem to be “Albanian editors” or is it only to vote against the common name simply because it’s in the Albanian language? And better yet, why is it more than just 1 of you consistently showing up for these spontaneous votes? Botushali (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Report

Page:
Anti-Ottoman revolts of 1565–1572 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Comment:
Editor Çerçok added on 31 August an unreliable source (Pëllumb Xhufi) to the article (back then, it was titled

I added content from at least four sources, one of which was Dr.Xhufi's book. Most of the content was from Malcolm. Dr.Xhufi has been twice unsuccessfully reported by editors who disagree with the historical facts found in his verbatim representation of primary archival sources. Dr. Xhufi's book is an academic publication that has gone through peer review and has been cited countless times in top journals.

I wish added content could be discussed based on its reliability per wikipedia guidelines, not on personal like/dislike of it. Çerçok (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are two RSNs about Xhufi which didn't conclude that the source is unreliable, as I have explained to SR already in previous discussions. [218][219] Xhufi is a medievalist who is a member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania. Arbërit e Jonit was published by Onufri, a leading academic publishing house which has received many excellence awards and it has been positively reviewed in Studime Historike, Albania's leading historical journal by medievalist Ardian Muhaj. It checks all boxes for RS. We can't just cherry-pick one opinion to disregard someone's work. The quote which SilentResident picked is by an author who has even contributed to the same anthology with Xhufi [220]. The source which constantly and without stop SilentResident has been trying to remove from all articles is a respected living academic and comments such as "racist, "nationalist", "ultranationalist", "extremist", ([221][222] [223][224][225][226]) which have been written about him by SilentResident are a violation of BLP for which SilentResident has been warned to stop by admins and open a RSN (Drmies[227], Cullen328[228]) and they even have redacted her comments [229][230]. Alltan (talk) 01:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SilentResident has provided the necessary scholarship that mentions Xhufi's work as being: "aggressively nationalist". There is no BLP violation on providing this information. However, an RSN needs to filled in order to have a clear image on this but there is too much extremist speech on TV shows etc. and scholarship doesn't hesitate to reject his claims (Arbërit e Jonit has been also considered non-RS even inside Albania).Alexikoua (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A longtime Wikipedia user calling a living academic racist, extremist, nationalist, tendentious, ultranationalist etc. (see diffs above) and doing this multiple times over a protracted period of time even after being warned is in fact a severe BLP violation.

Xhufi's work has received excellent reviews in Albania and abroad. It's listed as a main source for a Cambridge University Press source as of 2022[231] SilentResident can't pick a random quote from someone who has even written an article in the same anthology as Xhufi who hasn't been "rejected" anywhere. Falsely claiming that a living academic is promoting "extremist speech on TV shows" is in and of itself a BLP violation. You can't go around and call anything "extremist speech" without evidence or a source which calls such speech extremist. Admins need to know that in the previous RSN there was an attempt to distort a historical comment by Xhufi and make into the opposite of what it said [232]. There is a clear targeting of this author by several users who have to stop using wikipedia as public space to attack living authors Alltan (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Being cited in sporadic occasions doesn't make RS his work, in fact this means nothing about the author and his work in general. I have seen several nationalistic works that have been cited for various reasons in serious scholarship. Please don't mix up those two. SilentResident mentioned the conclusion of high quality scholarship about works on the topic Xhufi is specialized (Albanian history and Greek-Albanian relations) and definitely Xhufi's work should be treated with heavy precaution. [[233]] Himara has always been Albanian, Greek government launched a 200-year old Anti Albanian agenda and several other motos of this fashion can't meet RS.Alexikoua (talk) 03:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened an RfC on Xhufi at RSN [234]. This thread should be about the alleged tag-teaming, and nothing more.

Khirurg (talk) 04:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:RSN as you have been repeatedly been asked to do, then a block will be the inevitable result. The idiom is "put up or shut up". I truly hope that you understand, and will conduct yourself in accordance with policy going forward. Cullen328 (talk) 04:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

WP:RS. But apparently this isn't the case and this is what I am trying to understand. Understanding a policy's principle, helps a lot not just to avoid repeating the policy's violations in the future but also the approach to questionable sources. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Cullen328, adding to my confusion expressed on my comment just above, regarding the precise line between

WP:BLP, another Admin just intervened at the RSN stating that editor Alltan is doing an inaccurate invocation of WP:BLP regarding the criticism against Xhufi. The RfC at RSN also has non-neutral wording, and is advisd to be closed and moved to Dispute Resolution Noticeboard instead,[235] an advise the filler stated that they will follow. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I see. Thank you! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:32, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Since you deem it inflammatory, I've struck the term (it's unnecessary anyway). Now, can you try and address the topic of the report at hand? Btw, is this you calling a veteran editor an "edit-warrior" in an edit-summary [237]? Not only is this a clear

Khirurg (talk) 14:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Edit warrior is someone who is edit warring. If I keep edit warring, I am an edit warrior. The editor breached the 3RR three times within a month. I reported him and he got warned by an admin. Then he kept reverting and placed a warning template that is used for disruptive IPs and newbies on my tp just because I reverted him twice. In the edit summary he claimed that I was not participating on the tp, but the history of the tp shows that is not true. Will you ask him to get his edit summary deleted? Anyways, some admins who use the term "edit warrior" in edit summaries for example [238] [239][240]. Even the

Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@Ktrimi991, indeed there is no trace of you in the talkpage [[241]] although you kept reverting. By the way the result of your report was "user(s) warned" since your disruptive editing was noticed by uninvolved editors there. As such you owe a sincere apology for this pattern. Indeed you are reverting without talkpage participation in a wide variety of articles considered that you support editors that agree on your national agenda (another recent example of reverting sourced information [[242]] and no trace in tp [[243]], same situation in Pecë [[244]][[245]] and nothing in tp [[246]] apart from my comments).Alexikoua (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Salviogiuliano, the admin who warned Alexikoua (for breaching 3RR thrice in a month) [247] made it absolutely clear you were the only user edit warring and the only one warned. [248]Yes, I only warned him, but the template automatically closes the report as "warned user(s)". As I said during the discussion, Alex was edit warring and Alex was warned. Ktrimi991 explained this to you already in a discussion [249]. So why are you, being aware that this is not true, still asserting this? Alltan (talk) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The full report is found here [[250]] and no wonder an uninvolved editor noticed immediately Ktrimi's disruptive pattern. After the first comment by Coldtrack Ktrimi desperately responded to

wp:ADMINSHOP tactics: [[251]] and [[252]].Alexikoua (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Editor Locke Cole is edit warring against consensus on multiple templates Template:Bit and byte prefixes Template:Quantities of bits Template:Quantities of bytes (including a possible 3RR violation [253] [254] [255]), disrupting talk pages (here’s one example [256]) and carrying out personal attacks [257] [258]. Some editors are trying to hold a discussion at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits, but the discussion is continually disrupted by Locke Cole's edits. Can someone take a look? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Contact me | Contributions). 00:15, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheDragonFire300 He did notify Locke here, but was reverted here. ~~~~ ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 00:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to apologise, in that case. I was going to check shortly after I made the comment and notice, but forgot to. Regards,

Contact me | Contributions). 01:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Without commenting on the possible edit warring and general discussions I find it odd that the discussion for Template:Quantities of bytes is being held at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits#New_proposal:_Legacy as part of a proposal that appears to have gained consensus and been implemented in November 2021. The only reason that I was able to figure out to go there was the fact that there was a November 2021 message on the Quantities of bytes template Talk with a link. The same goes for Template_talk:Quantities_of_bytes (where the previous talk items date to 2015). This discussion appears to have been going on for multiple years in different forms both on individual pages and collectively. I also note that the templates link to Kilobyte and other pages where the nomenclature should align with what is in the templates otherwise it is going to get even messier and the discussion will migrate there or the Template discussion will be used to support viewpoints elsewhere.

With all of this I suggest that a formal proposal be started at the Wikipedia:Village pump with messages left on the template talk pages alerting people and whilst the discussion is being undertaken the templates should be left in a stable form. Apart from anything else:

1. That will gain a wider viewership and input than on a single page.
2. Changes based on consensus at the Village Pump are easier to support and require an equivalent level of consensus to change to something else.

Gusfriend (talk) 00:53, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, this should have been held at

WP:MOSNUM

; thus making it a MOS change, not simply a template change). As to the November 2021 "consensus", the TL;dr version is, Dondervogel 2 drags out discussions, waits a month or longer to reply, apparently in an attempt to force their POV. It worked this time because I and other editors who would oppose it did not notice the "new" discussion (you can see I was heavily involved in other discussions in that main section; the proposal they made nearly two months after the last meaningful discussion in that sub-thread was quickly closed in only six days when they got what they wanted (with no attempt to ping or reach out to other editors they knew were heavily invested in the discussion)).

It is my intention to collect evidence of this disruptive behavior by Dondervogel 2 (back to when they edited as

WP:BATTLEGROUND, look at the full edit history of User:Thunderbird2/The case against deprecation of IEC prefixes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) which they have religiously updated for fourteen years. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

(Non-administrator comment)If I'm reading correctly, a header at

WT:MOSNUM indicates that this is under ArbCom discretionary sanctions, so any editors involved in a dispute about this topic should beware and tread lightly, yes? Elizium23 (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Notice the failure of

assume good faith in his post of 25 September, justifying the comments by Quondum and Zac67. Further examples can be found by following the link provided by Quondum. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

In addition to

WP:AGF, frequent allegations of lying and generally rude tone at least bordering on harassment. A productive discussion is impossible. I'd seriously appreciate an admin calling him to order officially. --Zac67 (talk) 06:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

This ANI thread is about disruptive behaviour by

assume good faith on the part of other editors, and generally being unpleasant to interact with. Included are accusations such as the one above against Dondervogel 2. This unpleasantness by Locke Cole and the failure of the community to censure him caused me (about a year ago) to decide to leave WP. I will no doubt leave again, but for now, I'll see whether the WP community can restore a little my faith in managing this disruptive behaviour. What is needed to deal with this? —Quondum 15:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

This dispute truly had a consensus many years ago with very many editors weighing in and a consensus discerned and declared with an admin supervising. At that time, Dondervogel 2 (then known as Thunderbird, if I recall correctly) didn’t accept that consensus and doesn't agree today with the current policy that sprang from that consensus. Nothing has since changed other than drama persists. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quondum said above that there is a long history on this topic and Greg L says that it is a long-running war. As I mentioned above, the way to solve the underlying root cause, the best way of getting more involvement in the discussion and stop having this pop up again in a few months and a few months after that is a formal RfC at the

WP:MOSNUM. Once it is there it applies everywhere in the project, people can be referred to the MOS in correcting their edits and sanctions can be applied to those who continue to act against consensus. Gusfriend (talk) 08:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@Gusfriend: I wish to add canvassing to the list of Locke Cole's disruptive activities. He has summoned Greg_L at least twice [259] [260], knowing that Greg_L would support his position. Except when summoned by canvassing, Greg_L was not involved in the discussion on any of the templates since [2008], when he supported the disruptive activities of the socks Fnagaton and Glider87. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

casting aspersions (see Special:Diff/1113072411). As Greg L was involved in the discussion at the Quantities of bytes template, you made his involvement important when you used a separate talk page as justification for making changes he had previously opposed: Special:Diff/1056250211. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Sort of like how Quondum just showed up randomly here

I presume.

Now that we've settled Dondervogel 2's latest attempts take issue with my behavior, can we please address their behavior in so far as

WP:BOOMERANG

proposal, but clearly if they're going to escalate to casting aspersions about me, this needs to be stopped now.

@Dondervogel 2: I see you can spend time here making more aspersions against me that are unfounded, can you spare a moment to reply to my question on your talk page? —Locke Cole • t • c 00:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it’s time for a reality check and history lesson since this tendentious behavior by Dondervogel 2 isn’t going away and occurred so long ago, almost no one currently on Wikipedia remembers.

First off, I’m a senior mechanical engineer at a major electronic manufacturer, where I help establish engineering standards for the company. Although I’m close to retirement, I’m not yet retired and have better things to do with my life that spend time here dealing with tendentiousness that makes Wikipedia’s articles look foolish.

Secondly, no one “summons” me. I seldom visit Wikipedia anymore to edit and happened to notice an “1” badge on my alert bell because my name had been mentioned on that template page.

An objective look at the most recent 100 of Dodgervogel 2’s edits shows him to be a near-single-purpose account user with an apparent obsession over how Wikipedia should be using terminology like “kibibytes” and “mebibits.”

The consensus hammered out years ago, which resulted in the current MOSNUM policy was one that Dondervogel 2 (then known as “Thunderbird2” or something like that) vehemently disagreed with. Sometime after the consensus went against his position, Thunderbird 2 dropped off the radar… I don’t remember when and the circumstances, just that there was no disruption for a while.

Now, newly reincarnated as Dondervogel 2, he spends an unusual amount of time on Template:Quantities_of_bits, which links to an uncanny amount articles, and where Dondervogel 2 seems to always have a presence.

Wikipedia doesn’t need those tables featuring the “gibibit” terms if the price is continual disruption. Those units are largely ignored by the mainstream computer world and the computer press; Dell doesn’t use them in their literature or packaging. Same for Apple. ‘PC World’ and ‘MacWorld’ don’t use them… unless perhaps it is an article of a proposed standard that never took off. Spell checkers from Apple—a tech company—don’t even have those terms in the dictionary… when I try to type “gibibits,” my spell checker tries to auto-correct it to giblets.

If Dondervogel 2’s contribution was to just produce a nice table and let the community use it as the MOSNUM-memorialized consensus intended, that would be fine. But instead his tendentiousness expresses itself as doing his best to put that table in articles where the units aren’t used… as if “keeping the units front and center amounts to keeping the dream alive” that the computer world will one-day follow Wikipedia’s lead.

Finally, as for me somehow being in Locke Cole’s hip pocket, there’s zero truth to that. Locke and I were on opposite ends of a different disagreement (linking dates) around the same timeframe and it was a bitter ending for Locke when the consensus went against his wishes. Though Locke didn’t like it, he accepted the consensus and didn’t edit against it… or at least didn't edit against it much as I recall. Greg L (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dondervogel 2 casting aspersions

It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause. Legitimate concerns of fellow editors' conduct should be raised either directly with the editor in question, in a civil fashion, or if necessary on an appropriate noticeboard or dispute-resolution page. Although broad leeway is granted to allow editors to express themselves in their interactions with one another, particularly in dispute resolution, a consistent pattern of making objectively unsupported or exaggerated claims of misconduct can necessitate sanctions or restrictions even if the editor subjectively believes that they are true.

Passed 10 to 0 at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)^[1]

Evidence and Discussion

During discussion at Template talk:Quantities of bits I had advised Dondervogel 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that they need to inform other editors who had expressed concern over the topic under discussion of the new discussion at this new talk page. They seemed to largely ignore that, ultimately pinging Quondum instead. Noticing that Greg L (who had previously participated in discussions at Template talk:Quantities of bytes) had been conspicuously absent from the other ping's, I finally did what Dondervogel 2 appeared incapable of doing: ping of Greg L. To which Dondervogel 2 replied (with an edit summary of why?) What is the reason for wanting to involve Greg L? I answered with a diff of Greg's previous participation, asking I wonder perhaps if you could explain why you'd exclude him? And instead of recognizing their error, they elected to cast aspersions about why he was pinged: You seem to imply you invited him to the discussion because you are confident he will support your position. Is that a good criterion for involving a new editor? I replied Where did I imply this? I expect an answer to this Dondervogel 2.

No reading of what I wrote could possibly be taken as inviting him because he would support my position, nor the

Request

My goal from the beginning of that line of discussion was to ensure that any concerned parties on other talk pages were informed of the discussion now taking place at this alternate venue. Dondervogel 2 appears to be both

Now, when he is told by another user to avoid making personal attacks he made here, instead of avoiding personal attack, he responds: "calling a cat a cat is not a "personal attack". --Mhhossein ^talk 11:12, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken a look at the conversation. I think there's a case for

WP:BOOMERANG

here.

First and foremost, you're quoting him out of context. He said, "Stop wasting our time with your

WP:FORUM

-like posts to push your pro-Mullahs POV without providing any reliable source." Emphasis mine. Please don't misrepresent words by selectively quoting them.

It's not a personal attack; it's an observation about behavior. He feels that the content you've proposed is biased towards the Iranian government, that your posts treat the talk page like a

WP:FORUM

, and that the sources you've provided aren't reliable.

You also linked to a diff that showed a comment Wikiaviani made and called it an attack. It's not. He's saying that you have a battleground mentality; that you're edit warring; and that you're distorting Wikipedia's guidelines.

You, yourself, previously accused him of having a battleground mentality and edit warring. You're claiming that such statements now count as a personal attack. When you said those things, did they also count as personal attacks?

Here's some feedback for you: if you suspect someone is some sort of sockpuppet, raise it in

Quandarie 12:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:AN thread where other users made similar concerns [261]. If you assemble all the cases, there is a good amount of evidence to back this. For example, back in April 2020, Mhhossein was partially blocked for "tendentious commentary and original research" [262] which he made in this thread regarding Khomeini (taking a pro IRI stance) [263], the founder of the IRI. A pro IRI stance was also taken here (2019 June) (September 2021). Heck, take a look at even his most recent case regarding the death of a poor woman by IRI Guidance Patrol for showing some hair. Do I need say more? (September 2022). They have also been warned "against a battleground mentality and further incivility" in relation to articles about Iranian politics. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Seeing the comments down below, I should have perhaps clarified better. This pro-IRI behaviour all violated at least one of our guidelines in each of these threads. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Quandarie: I really don't think [264] and [265] are appropriate ways of communicating with others in such a calm a discussion. --Mhhossein ^talk 09:09, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Yeah, while edit warring, misrepresenting what reliable sources say by cherry picking only the parts you like, using unreliable IRI sources repeatedly while you have been told not to do so are appropriate ways to edit this encyclopedia ? By the way, two editors are still waiting for your explanations at Talk:Mahsa Amini protests, it would be an appropriate way to communicate to answer them, don't you think so ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quandarie 16:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Quandarie

: ; Don't get me wrong,

• Given Mhhossein's profile as an editor, I disagree, when an editor systematically misrepresents what sources say to push a pro IRI POV during unrest in Iran, it's not surprising to see him do it again now.
• Again, calling a cat a cat is not a personal attack towards said cat.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 06:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Personal attacks again: I thought the insight by two third parties (Vice Regent, Quandarie) would make it clear enough to you that your comments had been personal attacks and that you should not comment on the editors. Among other things, you are making ad hominem comments which
  WP:WIAPA says are "never acceptable". --Mhhossein ^talk 03:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Vice Regent did not respond to my answer as to why it was not an attack, neither did Quandarie. Oddly, you keep cherry picking comments that favour you, omitting what HistoryofIran and Quandarie said about you deserving a topic ban ...---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : I could hardly do a better job of gathering evidences than what has been done above by two other editors (also see here). I think Mhhossein is quite a knowledgeable editor on Islam related topics, as evidenced by the articles he has brought to the good or featured level, but when it comes to topics related to the Islamic Republic of Iran, he is almost systematically biased.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Topic ban proposal: Mhhossein

• Bored Ape (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Guydebordgame (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• [277] "Crack cocaine addict" (the citation instead says this co-founder had addictions for a couple of years in his early teens and they ended when he was 15)
• [278] (reverted removal) re-added "Crack cocaine addict"
• [279] re-added "crack cocaine addict", in a new sentence; still inaccurate, still undue, cherry-picked, and a BLP violation. (The citation instead says that before co-founding Bored Ape, Aronow was [planning to get an MFA but fell ill and became] a cryptocurrency trader.)
• [280] "The ADL has stated that several of the traits in the collection are problematic and racist towards black people and Japanese people." (Instead, the citation refers to two senior research fellows at ADL [Pitcavage and Hill], both of whom refute Ripps' claims of racism, although they note that, out of context, 2 of the 10,000 ape images are problematic and that "a very small subset" is "clearly offensive" taken out of context.)
• [281] "banned in many countries for being child pornography" (The citation does not mention Bored Ape, and does not mention child pornography or the film being banned anywhere.)
• [282] (reverted removal) re-added "itself named after the 1971 film, banned in many countries for being child pornography." (Again, the citation does not mention Bored Ape, and does not mention child pornography or the film being banned anywhere.)
• [283] "where users commonly 'draw dicks,' according to the founder." (Not at all what the citation says; not even an accurate quote even though it's in quotation marks. The citation mentions a concept of an unnamed shared blank digital canvas that was apparently abandoned because the founders didn't want people drawing problematical stuff.)
• [284] (reverted removal) re-re-added "itself named after the 1971 film, banned in many countries for being child pornography." (Again, the existing citation does not mention Bored Ape, and does not mention child pornography or the film being banned anywhere. Guydebordgame added to that an unreliable citation which falsely implies that the pseudonym refers to the film rather than the album and which links to an unrelated 2015 Canadian court filing which does not mention Bored Ape or the album the pseudonym is named for, and although the court filing mentions the film and says that a police officer had said that based on description one or two scenes in the film were "bordeline child pornography", the court filing says nothing about the film being "banned in many countries".)
• [285] (reverted removal) re-re-re-added "itself named after the 1971 film, banned in many countries for being child pornography." (see above for detailed explanation).

Again, since the article is under sanctions and the user is edit-warring every time his false negative material is reverted, even with clear explanations in the edit summary and on the talkpage, I'm bringing this here. 64.64.172.66 (talk) 06:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC); diffs added to 00:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've now added another diff as Guydebordgame is contimuing to edit war on this 1RR article over his false information and is refusing to gain consensus. 64.64.172.66 (talk) 00:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Isabelle Belato and ASpacemanFalls, who have been editing the article somewhat regurlarly recently, to see if they have any comments. Also Hesperian Nguyen, who apparently has considerable experience with this editor (but may be currently off wiki and not see this). 64.64.172.66 (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping. I'm not sure this is an urgent issue at the moment, but from checking the article's history, it does seem like

right some wrongs. I hope a stern warning will course-correct them. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 01:17, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

As a note, after my posting here Guydebordgame again added information to the article that had been disputed before, here. If this behavior continues and the user fails to take this thread's warning to heart, then a page block might be for the best. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 12:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pinging. I'd also agree that a warning is sufficient for now. In regards to the movie, it seems that tidbit about the ban is taken from its own Wikipedia page, which only sources that with a PDF filing, which only concerns Canada. So it might also be helpful to get rid of that claim on the film's own page or, at least, amend it to reflect that one country considers it "objectionable". ASpacemanFalls (talk) 08:39, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Guydebordgame has now breached 1RR on this sanctioned article and has been reported at ANEW: [286]. 64.64.172.66 (talk) 00:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

are there any wiki mods here? please somebody check this user 64.64.172.66 and their obsessive desire to remove well documetented facts about child pornography in the film emperor tomato ketchup — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guydebordgame (talk • contribs) 02:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Guydebordgame blocked indef for personal attacks, as explained here. There's been parallel edit-warring at Emperor Tomato Ketchup (film). Someone might want to take a look at whether sources verify the current content of that article. The Reddit source doesn't look very promising... -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 03:24, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked all of those citations and they do not verify or confirm, so I will revert that on the film article. 64.64.172.66 (talk) 03:47, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I recently saw that

• I don't think I "missed the point" that Fram was trying to make with regards to Moondragon21's edits (he was not aware that we're supposed to attribute translated articles, now he is). I just disagreed that it justified revoking autopatrolled from his account. Fram is of course welcome to ask another admin to review that decision. Afterwards, Moondragon21 pinged me asking for help resolving a split page history after Fram moved one of his creations to draft while he was editing it. I did so, then noticed that Fram had moved another of his creations (
  WP:INVOLVED. I'm happy to hear others comments on whether any part of this sequence was in error. – Joe (talk) 08:17, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Thanks for showing that you indeed missed the point. The issues I raised about Moondragon were unattributed translations, very poor machine translations, and "fake" referencing (taking the first source from the original article, and putting it at random somewhere in their translation, thereby e.g. using a 2018 source to reference a 2022 fact). "he was not aware that we're supposed to attribute translated articles, now he is" He has since edited a lot, and has not tagged even one of his creations as an unattributed translation, despite requests to do so from me and from Joe Roe. "All of my interactions with Moondragon21 and Fram have been in an administrative capacity": I criticized your repeated failures to actually see the issues, and the false claims (e.g. "The notices about articles nominated for deletion or moved to draft were there before I granted autopatrolled") you made to defend your lack of action. To then go and revert a problematic article back into mainspace and then block your critic is clear
    Fram (talk) 08:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Yes, you are criticising my administrative actions. That's fine, happens all the time, but it does not disqualify me from taking further administrative actions involving you. We'd be rather stuck if that were what

    unblockable. – Joe (talk) 09:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    • No, I am discussing your competence and your false claims in defending your lack of action. About the edits of one editor, with a few articles as examples: and you just happen to then block me from one of these articles, and claim you are not involved. Comparing this with an extreme example of slippery slope is a very weak attempt at defense.

      Fram (talk) 09:33, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

      ]

      Oh, and your attempt to stop me from looking through the creations of someone who produces poor, unattributed machine translations. You seem to have your priorities here absolutely wrong.

      Fram (talk) 09:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

      ]

• Both the Fram block and this ANI thread popped up on my watchlist at the exact same time, so I took a look at
  WP:INVOLVED. But having checked three of the four citations in the article, I had to remove those three as not verifying in the least. I believe that Gonca Türkeli-Dehnert should be returned to draft, and Moondragon21's autopatrolled should be revoked. And MurielMary should be far far more careful in accepting AFC submissions. Softlavender (talk) 09:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Edited to add: Yngvadottir has now fixed the sourcing issues, so I now believe the article can stay in mainspace unless the subject lacks notability. That said, I believe Moondragon21's autopatrolled should be revoked, and Fram unbanned from the article now that it is sourced and unlikely to be moved-warred over (he may have something to contribute to the article). Softlavender (talk) 09:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) I edit conflicted with you after working on Gonca Türkeli-Dehnert, and had previously looked at Murder of Natalia Melmann. To be frank, neither looked like a translation to me, they were both so inadequate in their coverage, while the German articles are distinctly fuller coverage of the subject. I was disturbed by the point to which Fram drew attentions in their edit summaries at Gonca Türkeli-Dehnert—an obviously misused reference—and it's a BLP, so I rolled up my sleeves. I believe it's better now. I don't think Moondragon21 should be doing any editing here requiring understanding German, let alone on BLPs. Türkeli-Dehnert is not a politician, she is a civil servant/administrator, and the article contained several inaccuracies. It didn't bear the hallmarks of machine translation, but this editor's work based on German sources, at least, needs to be draftified until it can be checked. In short, Fram's right and since I have now made the article much closer to the content of the German article, I'm going to put the translation template on its talk page, but I don't think the editor has been translating, really. Yngvadottir (talk) 09:34, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • To clarify, I don't think I indicated that this page was a translated one (if I did, I messed up). The ones I indicated as unattributed translations were

    Fram (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

  Support removal of the removal of Moondragon21 autopatrolled permissions given the issues mentioned here and on their talk page since they have been given the permissions. They had an AfC rejected due to using wikiwix.com as a source for Mariama Sarr in August.

  As an aside, whilst I am aware that it is a personal preference and not policy, I do not like signatures that do not display their username. As such I am disappointed that an administrator would have a signature that says "Joe" when their username is actually "Joe Roe". Gusfriend (talk) 10:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Perhaps it's a misnomer, but
  WP:DRAFT is marked as an "explanatory essay". In that context, was this extreme enough to 1) warrant a block 2) require an admin to revert the move back to a "preferred version" in lieu of editors organically resolving this (preferably through discussion).—Bagumba (talk) 09:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  That particular part of

  WP:EW, a policy, is applied to moves-to-draft. This was a partial block from editing one page after I had attempted to get Fram to stop himself; I didn't see it as particularly "extreme". – Joe (talk) 10:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  • Trying to stop me from something not disallowed in policy but just in an essay, and without even attempting to get a) why I redrafted it, or b) to correct these issues on that BLP yourself? And then blocking me, again based on that essay, while we were in a dispute over your handling of the autopatrolled right of that very editor?

    Fram (talk) 10:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    We weren't "in a dispute", Fram. You asked me to do something, I said no. – Joe (talk) 10:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    And misrepresented my comments, and then started lying about what happened, and then as a completely unrelated action (right?) lectured me about draft moving one of the articles from that discussion, lectured me about going through the creations of other editors (because, of course, we want more disastrous machine translations and we don't want anyone to find out), and then pblocked me. Totally normal behaviour.

    Fram (talk) 11:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    I really have no idea what you're talking about with half of that. Let's let others weigh in, shall we? – Joe (talk) 11:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I did so, then noticed that Fram had moved another of his creations (Gonca Türkeli-Dehnert) to draft multiple times, which is contrary to

    WP:MOVEWAR. I undid this, then reminded Fram of that policy...: Those actions that you described are you as an editor, not an admin, and you cited essays. A revert would rarely be an admin action, save for a policy violation (BLP vios, unsourced, etc) or reverting to "preferred version" only after applying full protection in an edit war. This is a content dispute of sorts on what should be in draftspace or mainspace. Discussion would have been the preferred action at that point, not adding to the warring yourself. —Bagumba (talk) 11:06, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    This is both: reverting a (conduct) policy violation and reverting to the (policy) preferred version. I've enforced

    WP:DRAFTOBJECT many times before, as an admin action, and will continue to do so unless there's a strong consensus here that it's inappropriate. I have no opinion on whether the article ultimately belongs in mainspace, only that the process is followed. – Joe (talk) 11:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    • You are using an essay to support your edit warring and blocking over bringing a BLP into mainspace while the issues that have been pointed out with references not supporting the claims (with e.g. a 2018 source for a 2022 fact) have not been corrected, and claim that you are reverting to the policy prefered version somehow? And that's still ignoring the involved action of it of course, but then again, you "have no idea what I'm talking about" when I describe your own posts, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.

      Fram (talk) 11:41, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

      ]

    I'll defer to others on whether DRAFTOBJECT is a de-facto policy or just an essay, as I'm not too active in this area.—Bagumba (talk) 11:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was just looking at the new pages recently made by Moondragon21 and noticed that since 23 September

Zorlu Tore and Midy have all been created without a talk page template plus pages created with only a single primary source and needing other tags. As I mentioned above I do not believe that they should have autopatrolled permission. Gusfriend (talk) 11:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

They also don't add the redirect templates like {{R from alternative name}} when they create new pages which are redirects. Gusfriend (talk) 11:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Not seeing this as an involved problem. If someone moves a page back to article space, don't just keep move warring back to draft. If an admin notices someone move warring and moves it back, that doesn't make them involved. If there are other issues and you aren't making progress on various talk pages, bring them to ANI. Present a sample of articles, describe the problems they have, and suggest revoking autopatrolling or some other sanction (or postpone such a proposal if the person understands the issues). I will say, though, that as usual, coming in hot with a "look at all the ways I found that you're a screw-up. can't you do anything right?" [paraphrase] followed by a bunch more notifications as you go through a bunch of their edits with the effect of angrily dropping a stack of papers on someone's desk, isn't always the most effective approach at getting someone to change their behavior and is going to lead to the wrong kinds of arguments.
  It looks like some of the this thread has become about Moondragon21, though. Perhaps that should be separated from the involved question. Moondragon21, as several people have said now, you do have to attribute translations, and will need to go back and do so for past translations. You are also responsible for the quality of the translation, and for making sure the articles meeting English Wikipedia policy requirements. That doesn't mean everything has to be perfect, but it does mean e.g. ensuring that text is verifiable in cited sources and, ideally, that the sources collectively justify a
  notability claim. As is often the case, Fram is correct on the merits (just not on the approach). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  "If an admin notices someone move warring and moves it back, that doesn't make them involved." is a strange way to describe this. People are involved because they have a dispute, not because they move a page. But if you move a page and then block an editor while you are already in a dispute with that editor (about, among other things, this very page and the seriousness of the issues seen here and on other pages), then that makes it an

  Fram (talk) 13:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Comment - so this was the status of the page when Joe moved it to mainspace the last time. "In October 2021, she became State Secretary for Integration in the First Wüst cabinet in North Rhine-Westphalia" is sourced to this source which is clearly dated 23.02.2018, but is sourcing a statement regarding 2021. When Fram moved the article back to draft with this edit, Fram's edit summary clearly said "A 2018 source to support a 2021 event? This is the exact same problem that led to drafitfying in the first place." I would have expected someone to read the reason why it was returned to draft. Also, I'm very unimpressed with citing two essays for the block ... and worse, calling them "policies" (see "Clear policy violation, and I'm not remotely involved"). And that doesn't even begin to get into the fact that you were the one reverting Fram in all this ... which *I* would consider involved even if there is some wikilawyering way of saying "no I wasn't" ... the appearance is very important with involved situations - always better to err on the side of not doing something. On the other hand, Fram, it might have been best to do as Softlavender and Yngvadottir did and just FIX the issues rather than move war ... you may have been on the side of protecting the encyclopedia but it does look a bit like you were being a bit of a pain in the behind rather than just fixing the issue. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Fair enough. I can get a bit vexed when people move things back to mainspace without bothering to fix the issues (see e.g.

  Fram (talk) 13:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  As I have already said,

  WP:INVOLVED: one important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role [...] is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. – Joe (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  • Fram (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    For me... the way an uninvolved administrator solves a move warring issue is move protecting the article or blocking someone for move warring. What makes you involved in MY mind is that you got down in the trenches and moved the article/draft around, thus becoming an editor rather than an admin. An admin works to stop the problem without having to make a decision on the content (or in this case, the namespace location of the article/draft). Like I said above, there may be a "wikilawyer" way out of being "letter of the wikilaw" "involved", but for my own actions as an admin, and as a way of staying above the fray and NOT getting into situations where you're "looking bad" - it's better to not make those "content decisions" like reverting a move before making a block. And I'll say - both of you should let other folks weigh in here, rather than doing a big pile of back and forth that doesn't make either one of you look like sensible people who are ready to collaborate and compromise. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:52, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    • Are you saying Joe should've blocked then reverted rather than revert then block? Or that if you block someone for repeatedly inappropriately moving a page, the page must stay at the location in was improperly moved to until someone else comes along? That doesn't seem ideal. It's not like a content dispute where there are two valid interpretations of policy and an admin isn't supposed to choose between them -- pages just aren't supposed to be moved back to draftspace like that. i.e. the next step is AfD, ANI, or some other mechanism to resolve problems with the content/creator. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ealdgyth said that as an admin Joe should have either move-protected the page or blocked for move-warring, and should not have move-warred himself. Softlavender (talk) 09:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Softlavender: What would be the point of blocking or protecting the page if it remained in Fram's preferred location? – Joe (talk) 10:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm summarizing Ealdgyth, so you'll have to ask him. But you might want to check out WP:The Wrong Version (when there is an edit war or move war, an admin should not choose their prefered version [involvement] and then lock or block), and remember that Ealdgyth gave you two options to choose between, and page-protecting was just one of them; blocking Fram for move-warring (or even just move-protecting) would have allowed other editors to decide (for instance via talkpage consensus or whatever) whether the page in that form should be in draft-space or mainspace. Softlavender (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC); edited 01:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• • I don't see re-draftifying a BLP that is known to have fake sources as edit warring. Moving a BLP draft to mainspace without fixing the issues that have been pointed out is bad. Then blocking the messenger is also bad. Joe, can you unblock Fram from the page and accept a trout so we can close this? —Kusma (talk) 14:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    No, because I don't remotely see a consensus for that. From

    WP:EW: an editor who repeatedly restores their preferred version is edit warring, regardless of whether those edits are justifiable. – Joe (talk) 04:24, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Considering that I reverted once on the 23th, and once on the 27th, and you reverted my moves twice on the 27th, it seems as if that line applies more to you (who broke 1RR) than to me then?

    Fram (talk) 07:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Is there a policy-based reason to continue blocking Fram from that page? As it is unlikely that they will edit the page, the block currently only seems to serve as a scarlet letter punishment. —Kusma (talk) 08:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I would be happy to unblock if Fram says they will not move the page to draft again. They haven't, as far as I know, so I have no reason to conclude that it is "unlikely" that they will edit the page. – Joe (talk) 10:24, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Are you aware of the reason why Fram moved the page to draft space and also that Yngvadottir has fixed that issue? Why should Fram move or edit the page now? —Kusma (talk) 10:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't know why Fram would move it in the first place when we have

    an age old process for building consensus for deciding whether articles should remain in mainspace. Anyway, Ritchie333 has decided to unblock and pseudo-close this thread. – Joe (talk) 10:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    Because draftification is a policy-suggested alternative for deletion, i.e. something which should be considered instead of starting an AFD; because AfD is not cleanup; because draftification gives them 6 months instead of 7 days, ... I don't understand, on the other hand, why you would move articles back to the mainspace without making any effort to address the issues with them first.

    Fram (talk) 12:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    If you are citing WP:EW, there is no situation when it's an administrative role to add your own revert to an ongoing dispute. There was no

    WP:3RRNO exemption applicable. You became an editor at that point.

    An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions.

    Then Fram reverted you, and you invoked an INVOLVED block. —Bagumba (talk) 09:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    This is incoherent... how are admins supposed to deal with edit warring or move warring if reverting to the status quo makes them involved in the dispute? – Joe (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• If I protect a page after it's seen BLP disruption (for instance), I will usually revert to the status quo after protection has been applied. This is standard procedural practice, and doesn't make a person involved in any way. The involvement is a red herring here. The issue is needing to acknowledge and deal with BLP problems in the content. And draftification isn't a solution to that: the page may be less prominent, but BLP very much applies in draftspace, if there's content violating BLP, it's still an issue. If someone had the time to fix the issue, that's obviously preferred, but blanking, not draftification, is the appropriate second choice. Edit-warring over a draftification is genuinely pointless. As such I don't think anyone is covering themselves in glory here. Joe's block is within policy, but it's not really addressing the meat of the issue. Fram's edit-warring was pointless, and can't even claim a BLP exemption, because he wasn't removing the content. I know I'm likely pissing off everyone here, but can we de-escalate a little, appreciate what Yngvadottir did, and recognize that something similar is what's best done next time? Vanamonde (Talk) 18:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC) Striking: had not seen the second revert. Inappropriate block, per Amakuru below. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the endorsement,

    WP:PNT is perpetually snowed under. Joe Roe didn't examine these articles closely enough, nor did the AfC reviewer who passed the one I worked on, and Moondragon apparently can't read the original languages well enough to translate accurately; at least draftification removed the article from passing readers and from Google indexing while the problem with Moondragon's articles based on foreign languages could be addressed. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

    ]

    @Yngvadottir: I do recognize that, hence my appreciation. Lacking the time to do that, though, the next best option is blanking the BLPvio, not move-warring. Moving it to draft may de-index it, but it's still a BLP violation. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, thank you Yngvadottir and others for doing the important thing and fixing the article. But I still think that, as an admin responding to move-warring and bad draftications, it isn't my job to wade in and decide who's "right" about the content dispute or try to deal with complex content problems. That would make me involved. – Joe (talk) 04:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that Julia Hamburg was an unattributed translation of the first paragraph of de:Julia Hamburg; I've just fixed that, so now it's an attributed translation. It might or might not be a machine translation. I can't see any of the usual smoking guns for a machine translation but there isn't enough text to be sure.—S Marshall T/C 18:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @S Marshall: Yes, that was what I wondered about at Gonca Türkeli-Dehnert; it didn't show the garbled syntax indicating a machine translation, but instead had plausible wording but serious omissions and inaccuracies of content. I've now looked at Julia Hamburg and the German; Fram sees a machine translation of the intro (which is itself a mark of a bad translation), but it's full of omissions of what is an almost quintessentially difficult German summary. I don't have time to work on it for several hours, and it in any case it begs for a rendition of the entire article. Meanwhile I've asked Moondragon21 what exactly they have been doing. Fram has pointed out a passage in another article that was clearly machine translation, but these two German ones make me wonder whether the editor is using some other intermediary text. The combination of plausible English and serious inaccuracies makes me think of those shady news sites that are populated with translations, maybe AI-mediated. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Personally I wouldn't attempt an idiomatic translation of the German article. I'd write a fresh article in English based on the German-language sources, which would take me about half the time. Might have a go at that.—S Marshall T/C 22:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Not really changed. Edit warring is disruptive, that has been settled policy for years, and per Rhododendrites and Vanamonde the standard admin response is block/protect and revert to the status quo ante. Move warring is doubly disruptive because of how annoying it is to revert, and move warring in draft space even worse because

WP:BITE is a big risk with draftification). – Joe (talk) 04:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• I have a lot of respect for Joe Roe, but they've clearly made an error of judgement here. Using an essay as a rationale for blocking someone, and on an issue affecting a BLP too, in which they were already INVOLVED, was not correct. I can AGF on that, we all make mistakes sometimes, but it's worrying that Joe seems to be doubling down on that now, instead of apologising.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:52, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(After edit conflict) Joe Roe, that line about draftification being bitey and amounting to slow deletion is usually mine. Just the other day I was schooled here that it's perfectly ok to move a draftified article back after fixing its issues, it doesn't have to go through AfC unless there's a COI or some other specific reason. I'm not sure I 100% believe that, but there's that to explain why some NPPers are so casual about it ... However, in this instance Fram had drawn attention at least twice in their edit summaries to a major problem with the referencing (2018 ref for 2021 occurrence). Doesn't BLP policy add urgency? I'm surprised you ignored that point. Would it really have been kinder to Moondragon21 to blank the article, or reduce it to an unreferenced stub? (That was the only reference the first time Fram draftified it.) In any case, I note that Moondragon21 hasn't edited for more than twelve hours; I was hoping they'd have resumed editing and come here by now; but based on the examples in this thread, I too request you rescind the granting of autopatrol. There are too many problems in their articles for them not to be looked at by NPP. Not just the failure to attribute translations, but inaccuracies and faulty referencing; I understand that you were unaware of these problems before this thread. And yes, it's not my place, but IMO you should reverse the pblock on Fram. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Literally all I asked Fram to do was stop move warring and start an AfD to get consensus. It has never been our policy that if a BLP has problems, major or not, it should be immediately removed from mainspace. – Joe (talk) 10:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:EW), not an essay. So what is it I should apologise for? The first time I was asked to reverse the block was today, and I have just said I am happy to do so if Fram does not intend to move the page again. – Joe (talk) 10:36, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

wet fish recommended by Kusma above, and then we can move on.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

So, what we have here, in my opinion, is a problematic BLP, that was moved to draftspace; Joe moved it back to mainspace, on the basis of his reading of the relevant policies, and then blocked the other party in this dispute. Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's the definition of an involved block. Whenever we have edit wars or move wars, both editors claim to be enforcing policies and, yet, they can be blocked (subject to very few exceptions) and, anyway, if they happen to be administrators, they are considered involved in regard to the controversy at hand. You don't get to revert your opponent, because you think they misunderstand policy and then block them, unless it's very clearly vandalism or another type of blatant disruption, which wasn't the case here. The best way of approaching this would have been to ask another administrator to determine whether Fram should have been blocked in this instance, since you had already reverted his move. Separately, after skimming over Moondragon21's talk page, I also think that it would be a good idea to review whether his autopatrolled permission really is warranted. Finally, I have to also say that Fram is not entirely blameless in this; for my money, his approach continues to be somewhat antagonistic, and that makes it more difficult to solve the issues that he correctly points out. Salvio 09:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have unblocked Fram, as I count four admins (Salvio, Bagumba, Kusma and Amakuru) who have opposed the block, along with several other editors, and none that have explicitly supported it as a good block. I am also doing this to de-escalate the situation, and agree that everyone needs to step back, take a deep breath, and just agree to disagree on this issue. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.

Fram (talk) 10:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

That wasn't remotely de-escalatory, Ritchie333. You reversed my action minutes after I said I would be happy to do it myself with minimal conditions, and pre-empted the consensus here by calling it a "bad block" in the log, when in fact at least two participants (Vanamonde and Rhododentrites) have said that it is within policy. But whatever, let's let Fram continue to bully article writers and remain unblockable because "four admins" are willing to defend them. – Joe (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Five admins. Would I call it a "bad block", though? Perhaps a "suboptimal" one. However, it's a block I wouldn't have made. Meanwhile, I don't think the identity of the blocked editor is actually that relevant here, apart from the fact that it inevitably ended up at ANI and became more visible. And I think it is unhelpful to say they were "bullying" article writers when there's quite a lot of agreement here that the article, as it stood, should not have been in mainspace. Black Kite (talk) 11:31, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that I did not think the block was helpful, and would think my earlier points kinda made that clear. So make it six. (Sorry, I had some ... off-wiki issues come up yesterday and did not get a chance to revisit this until this morning). Ealdgyth (talk) 12:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hesitant to just leave this thread as "agree to disagree" when Joe's interpretation of

WP:INVOLVED vastly differs from mine. From their comment above: This is incoherent... how are admins supposed to deal with edit warring or move warring if reverting to the status quo makes them involved in the dispute? AFAIK, an admin should never revert, have another editor revert back, and then proceeding to block that reverting editor. They seem to be confusing this with some (rare) situtations when it may be OK to revert to a longstanding version after a block.—Bagumba (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I'd be very happy to see a wider discussion about that, because I am quite confident that my view is aligned with broader community consensus. And per Rhododentrites: what difference does it make if the block is before or after the revert? I did both within minutes of each other here. – Joe (talk) 10:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...what difference does it make if the block is before or after the revert?: Before a block, you are making an editorial decision on which version is "right", who had the onus to start a discussion, etc. Worse, you would only be adding to the warring—repeatedly overriding each other's contributions—not de-escalating the situation. After a block, it's merely an administrative action reflecting community consensus, where an admin presumably does not have an editorial preference. —Bagumba (talk) 11:06, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, if an admin reverts 12:00 and blocks at 12:01, they made an editorial decision and added to the edit warring. But if they block at 12:00 and revert at 12:01, they have merely made an administrative action reflecting community consensus and do not have an editorial preference? This is your understanding of the consensus view? It seems nonsensical to me; like it couldn't possibly matter which order those two actions were taken, they are, for all intents and purposes, taken simultaneously. Levivich (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can find no fault in Levivich's logic, those are for all intents and purposes functional equivalents. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Except your hypothetical scenario was not what happened. Joe reverted the move at 6:36 27 Sept. Fram reverted again at 7:36. Joe then made the block at 7:48 Joe's revert and block are spread out, and separate decisions, not one minute apart with an arguably interchangeable order.—Bagumba (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so what you're saying is if an admin reverts at 12:00 and also issues a warning at 12:00, and the editor then re-reverts at 1:00, and the admin blocks at 1:12, then it's not an admin action, it's an editorial decision, and the admin is involved? Levivich (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any editor, not just admins, can make certain reverts to enforce policy (e.g.

WP:BRD, though they can do so an editor. Issuing a warning about basic courtesies to avoid an EW is at least an attempt to educate and diffuse the situation.—Bagumba (talk) 20:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Let's use your example: I see an edit that I think violates

WP:INVOLVED is that an administrator should not use the tools to make sure that he has the upper hand in a good-faith dispute, such as this one. Salvio 20:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Bad unblock. Could've at least said "it was involved, but don't do that in the future". Fram clearly sees it as validation that the guidance we have about moving drafts (which is part of Wikipedia:Drafts -- the page which describes how/when to use draftspace, regardless of the tag at the top) and standard processes to follow to address content issues are just things which get in the way of Defending The Wiki™. This was a page-level block; there was no urgency. Sigh. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: I would like to see the context of this quotation "regardless of what you think of the quality of their edits, I think we both know that you systematically combing through another editor's creations does not lead to a good place". Can someone provide a diff please? I am not sure whether is somewhere on the policies or the guidelines, but it is common sense that if user X makes a methodological error continually, you have to check his edits. Or if you spot lets say 3-4 same manner errors, it is reasonable to think that this might be something a broader issue, and it should be checked. Checking ofcourse should be always polite and civil, aiming to help the other editor, not to frustrate him, but anyway, this is another discussion. Checking each other's work should be welcomed. Sorry for not commenting on the central theme (WP INVOLVED), but I would like to clarify this issue first. Cinadon36 10:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:FRAMBAN and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram. – Joe (talk) 10:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

As far as I am aware, the Fram arbitration case did not provide any useful clarification on the "hounding" issue whatsoever. But what should Fram (or anyone else, really) do if he notices a problematic editor whose edits do not improve after friendly communication? (A) Ignore it (B) Continue to point out mistakes or (C) Go straight to ANI? —Kusma (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When did the "friendly communication" happen in this case? Levivich (talk) 12:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of letting the abusive T&S ban restrict me from doing the necessary legwork to find problematic editing patterns, as is necessary for e.g. the CCI's I started, the SPIs I started, or the Arbcom cases I started since the Framban. Without going through some of Moondragon's earlier creations, the highly problematic "murder of" article discussed on their talk page would still be in the same sorry state it was when it was created (and not seen by most NPPs as they have autopatrolled status...).

Fram (talk) 12:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

FYI: as it is related to the ongoing discussion, I was looking at some of their edits and noticed the article Murder of Natalia Melmann without realising that it was the page being discussed (it has been a long day). Of the 6 references for the article, there were 2 pairs of references that were the same but on different sites. I fixed it by combining the references down to 4 from the original 6 and left a note on User:Moondragon21s talk page.Gusfriend (talk) 12:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm going to disengage now, per the excellent advise on my talk page. I would just say that, while I'm not going to pull Moondragon21's autopatrolled right, that doesn't mean any other admin can't. At the same time, it seems extremely unfair to have discussion of his creations tangled up with this inside-baseball drama. He is a prolific contributor who deserves a fresh discussion and broad consensus, not one or two editors standing in judgement. – Joe (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Surely before MD21's autopatrolled right is pulled, the first resort would be to deploy the waggy finger and frowny face of mild administorial disapproval on his talk page? I mean, Fram's attempted something of the kind, but, well, not terribly successfully. Let's say that while Fram has many excellent and admirable qualities, gently coaching others about how to change their behaviour in a mild, engaging and de-escalating way is not one of them.—S Marshall T/C 18:00, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• What's weird about this is that autopatrolled isn't really a right. It doesn't let you do anything you can't do anyway. It's really a kind of tag that causes your creations to bypass NPP. It's a way of taking load off NPP when the benefits of that reduced load outweigh the risk of bad stuff escaping review -- not a way of making the editor's life easier or something. If there's any doubt at all about whether an editor's creations need review, even occasionally, then autopatrolled should be pulled. Holders of autopatrolled should have impeccable records. EEng 18:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• To be very clear about what I meant, since I've been mentioned above: I do not think this block violated INVOLVED, because Joe's revert was to the status quo. That doesn't make it a good block, only a block within the letter of policy. INVOLVED isn't very relevant here; we ought to be discussing how we should have dealt with the BLPVIO. I would not have blocked Fram in these circumstances, but then I wouldn't have moved the draft multiple times either. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:21, 28 September 2022 (UTC) Striking per comment below. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This is not the way the policy works. "Reverting to the status quo" is not a reason to edit war.

  WP:TROUT, given the facts of the case. Then we could have closed this thread and all moved on, but instead I see that he's "disengaged". I'm sorry but I do find that very disappointing.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  @Amakuru: I had not realized Joe moved the page page twice. That is indeed quite poor. I do believe the principle of my point stands, though; reverting once to the status quo is not involvement. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  For full page protection, the

  WP:PREFER policy allows admin discretion to reverting to a stable version, but only after full protection, not before. I assume the community supports a similiar action for blocks, reversing actions for which there is obviously no consensus, but again presumably only after blocking. —Bagumba (talk) 05:04, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  I agree. It wouldn't have been difficult to say "yes, I made this block, but I can see how it could be seen as incorrect given the situation, and I won't repeat this". But, nope. Oh well. Black Kite (talk) 21:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  He disengaged per the advice of the admin who unblocked Fram so as to better allow uninvolved editors to come to a consensus on what was correct here. I dont think it is really fair to castigate him for following that advice. As to the merits, I think you either play the role of admin or editor, and the reverts are that of an editor. Once you pick editor then you cant then also do admin things. nableezy - 21:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Timeline To be clear, Joe chimed in here multiple times before they chose to disengage. The rough timeline was:

  • 08:04 27 September ANI thread started
  • 11:30 Joe's statement on enforcing DRAFTOBJECT as an admin: I've enforced
    WP:DRAFTOBJECT
    many times before, as an admin action, and will continue to do so unless there's a strong consensus here that it's inappropriate.
  • 04:22 28 September Joe stands by his actions: Not really changed. Edit warring is disruptive, that has been settled policy for years, and per Rhododendrites and Vanamonde the standard admin response is block/protect and revert to the status quo ante.
  • 10:36 Joe reiterates that he is not INVOLVED: I think "doubling down" is a little uncharitable? I am listening to what people are saying, but admin accountability is not automatic genuflection when you're brought to ANI, it's justifying your actions and being open to being convinced you were wrong. I am open to being convinced, but: I was not "already involved", and I cited a policy as the reason for the block (
    WP:EW
    ), not an essay.
  • 14:28 Joe posts here: I'm going to disengage now, per the excellent advise on my talk page.

  Joe is not a newbie who is blindly following the advice of an admin to disengage. They are an admin, responsible for their actions and the advice they choose to follow. They are no more obliged to follow the advice of "the admin who unblocked Fram" than they are to other admins' and editors' advice here. They can—and have—picked and chosen who they wish to listen to. —Bagumba (talk) 04:52, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I can understand Joe becoming defensive about his actions because Fram has been sniping at him relentlessly for a few days. Let's face it, Fram, your bedside manner is poor and you have failed to de-personalize the situation in your comments on this thread. (That said, Joe's bedside manner was quite poor when he wrote "I think we both know that you systematically combing through another editor's creations does not lead to a good place" on Fram's talkpage a day and a half ago.) In any case, I hope after the dust settles after a few days Joe can reflect on what has been said by uninvolved admins and experienced editors on this thread. Choosing a side in a dispute and then repeatedly enforcing that side and then blocking someone about it is generally considered an involved admin action, and is only acceptable in cases of major vandalism and drastic BLP violations (even then it's often good to go to AN and state what happened and ask for a block review). Softlavender (talk) 01:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The way I see the complaint, there are two substantial claims of there being issues with Joe Roe's actions:
  1. Claim 1:
     Fram
     in order to restore their preferred location of a page.
  2. Claim 2: The sanction issued by Joe Roe was not warranted even if Joe Roe were not involved.

With respect to claim 1, it is crystal clear that Joe Roe was involved, which is to say that Joe Roe was actively engaged in a dispute with Fram regarding the proper location of a particular page. Joe Roe moved the article from the draftspace into the mainspace, was reverted by Fram, and then moved the page back into the mainspace and blocked Fram. There was very clearly a dispute between the two editors regarding where the page belonged and Joe Roe clearly blocked an editor who had explicitly opposed him in that dispute and chose not to utilize

WP:AN3 or another noticeboard to seek someone who was clearly uninvolved to take a look at the situation. Joe Roe, meanwhile, has stated

in this thread I can't get my head around the idea that reverting someone makes you involved.

With respect to Claim 2, the arbitration committee has previously stated that

WP:INVOLVED

with respect to the dispute.

Moreover, this whole saga raises the spectre of issues with

place to review miscellaneous admin actions where Joe Roe could seek dispute resolution and broader community reflection on whether that action was appropriate. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:44, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Additionally, the comment on Joe Roe's talk page that labels Fram as just single-minded raises some additional concerns for me in light of the

conduct described in my comment above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Good analysis, @Red-tailed hawk: I'm also concerned that Joe Roe hasn't taken the feedback he's received with open ears. Instead he's "disengaged" and that's it. Every response was met with a rebuttal instead of a realization. Oh well —VersaceSpace 🌃 23:44, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will note that

WP:INVOLVED admin actions, or is this a one-off? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:01, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I agree with the Red-tailed hawk's analysis. I sympathise with Joe's choice to disengage, given the tone Fram set in the discussion at Moondragons talk page. However, It would be good for Joe to briefly re-engage and acknowledge that their view of

WP:INVOLVED is likely not the majority's view and allow this discussion to close. Femke (talk) 17:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Support. I would also say that if you give someone NPP with your comment starting with Hmm... tough one. ([292]) and later on several editors mention that they think that the NPP permissions should be removed then you should probably start a discussion about it somewhere. Gusfriend (talk) 23:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps be less concerned about their own scoreboard: I would just say that, while I'm not going to pull Moondragon21's autopatrolled right, that doesn't mean any other admin can't. —Bagumba (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...what on earth are you talking about? What scoreboard? I'm not going to pull Moondragon21's autopatrolled right because I do not think it should be pulled. – Joe (talk) 04:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please reconsider. It has become abundantly clear throughout this thread that Moondragon21 should not have autopatrolled.

LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Hi

WP:DRAFTOBJECT if admins cannot revert editors who breach those policies. As for the rest, ANI is for incidents requiring urgent action, and any need for urgent action ended with Ritchie's unblock. The context for why I would advise Fram not to hound or bully another editor will be abundantly obvious to anyone with a passing familiarity with either of our editing histories. From my point of view, there's no reason why this discussion couldn't have been closed days ago. – Joe (talk) 04:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

If people want to hash out the INVOLVED question,

there's a place for that. Levivich (talk) 04:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Moving the discussion at his point seems

WP:XRV says It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct..., while it seems this ANI was opened exactly to seek comment on the user's conduct. ANI is perfectly suitable to handle this. While it didn't necessarily have to be opened here, it is already here.—Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I said If people want to hash out the INVOLVED question,

there's a place for that. If people want to hash out Joe Roe, they can do so here. 🙄 Levivich (talk) 06:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• Onel5969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Roads4117 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The edit in the linked article (A1011 road) is a good one, whats wrong with scrubbing a little OR? The only sanctionable offense would be adding it in the first place. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not remotely bannable, and appears to be a content/citation dispute. Star Mississippi 15:57, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone removing things like

"Continuing south parallel to the Underground and DLR track we now go under another set of bridges. These are the tracks for the District line, Hammersmith & City line and c2c services to London and Essex. Here is the location of West Ham station, a busy main station, and this part of the road can be busy during peak times for people picking up or dropping off passengers for the station."

should get a barnstar, not being reverted and dragged to ANI.

Fram (talk) 16:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I didn't see any issue with their actions at the time of that discussion and I still don't. They're adhering to policy by removing

WP:V

, a core part of Wikipedia. Can you point to what policy they may be going against? Cuz I'm not seeing anything.

Also, you're not being cyberbullied, Onel5969 is just a prolific

new page reviewer who happened to sort through some pages that are relevant to a project you're a part of. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Respected and prolific NPP contributor follows policy. Why are we here? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link to the ANI case concerning Roads4117 just earlier this month. Roads4117, I advised you in that thread not to add unsourced content to our articles. I'll expand on that. The edit that Onel removed was full of content that looked exactly like original research. I'm personally not hugely fussed about stuff being cited to maps if all of the information can be verified purely by looking at the map. This wasn't just a route however, it contained various stuff about it being a quick link bypassing the one-way system, it being busy at peak times, and so on. I thought that you had agreed to stop adding unsourced content to articles? I'll add that it was also largely written in the first person ('now we go under a bridge...'), which is more like a tour guide than encyclopedic writing. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Girth Summit, I will try my best not to add unsourced material again. User: Roads4117 16:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading ...but are now doing this on everything else - Yoon Seok-hyun, Alex F. Yaworski, Gilera CBA, Guyana National Rifle Association and Mariano Llinás are just some of the names: I looked at edits to those pages, and the edit summaries mention reasons including

WP:BURDEN. —Bagumba (talk) 04:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

All content should be sourced--that's not debatable in my book: Everyone aspires for their own version of

MOS:PLOTSOURCE ;-)—Bagumba (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Indeed, lol :-) That's the other example of rampant OR, with the same NPOV problems (an editor should not be deciding which plot details are due for inclusion). I didn't realize roads had the same problem. Levivich (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Published maps are a secondary source. GIS data is a primary source. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some maps are secondary sources, or contain secondary source information, but using Google Maps to describe routes is using a primary source. That map is a graphical representation of GIS data--it's the same primary source data displayed visually instead of by text. (Older maps, based on direct human observations, are also primary sources.) A secondary source is one compiled with analysis from multiple primary sources. So a thematic map, like a population heat map, would be an example of a secondary source map. Levivich (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich Feel free to change/delete this citation. Thanks, Roads4117 (talk) 17:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

...And don't take my word for it, just Google "is a map a primary source?" and read any of the many, many articles written about this topic. Levivich (talk) 17:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1. "Maps can also function as secondary sources because they may draw on information from other maps, data sets, or primary sources of information."
2. Librarian's opinion
3. Same, plus context is important. We make that clear in
   WP:MAPCITE
4. "A map can be a primary or secondary source. If a map was produced as immediate evidence of an area, then it is a primary source. If the map is just a symbolic depiction of a space then it is a secondary source."

I'm seeing a pattern though... context. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 21:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of primary vs. secondary sources, the policy is

WP:V. The only material that requires a citation is quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged. Primary sources and uncited sources satisfy WP:V. That said, there is an obvious trend across the project, dating back more than ten years, which basically "challenges" all material's verifiability. If there's really a broad consensus that policy requires all material, no matter how uncontroversial or how easily findable a source may be (and I'm not saying all of the content in question falls into "uncontroversial, with easily findable sourcing"), needs a citation to a secondary source, it's probably time for a big WP:V RfC. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I think it is, time to put this "verifiable" business to bed, it's confusing editors and resulting in OR. Levivich (talk) 17:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's verifiable, it's not OR. There are a lot of people conflating "uncited" with "OR". What is OR about The road initially follows a course through north-west London via Harlesden, Wembley, Harrow, Northwood and Rickmansworth. During this stage, it is known as Harrow Road. It crosses the M25 at Junction 18 at Chorleywood, crossing into Buckinghamshire and then continues towards Little Chalfont and Amersham.? I'm not saying there was no OR to be found in these diffs, but a straightforward description of what's easily verifiable just by clicking the links/databases that are already on the page is not OR. That doesn't mean it should be in the article, but the reason is unrelated to V/OR (and more about e.g. NPOV/WEIGHT, TONE, NOT, etc.). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not right. There are only two options: it's either your research, or it's someone else's research. If you're not summarizing someone else's research, then it's OR. Verifiability is irrelevant. Levivich (talk) 17:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich is correct, its either original or someone else's. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

True indeed, and doesn't follow "that's not right". What exactly are you disagreeing with, Lev? Using "research" instead of "published information" just confuses this. All V means is that content is determined by previously published information, so yes, if you add material based on what's already out there in a reliable source (which can include maps/databases), without adding your own claims/conclusions, it's not OR and V is satisfied. As NOR says: The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be verifiable in a reliable, published source, even if not already verified via an inline citation. Hence, "if it's verifiable, it's not OR". Again, that's a different question from whether there's a citation in the article. Again, whether it should be in the article for other reasons is separate. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:51, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Original analysis of a primary document like a map or database falls under

WP:OR. That is as basic as it gets: "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Define "analysis". Is map reading an analysis or a basic skill lost on the internet generation? - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Snark aside map reading is analysis. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(

WP:MAPCITE. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Indeed,

WP:MAPCITE#Original research covers this quite well. Levivich (talk) 18:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:MAPCITE is an essay almost entirely written by just two editors, it has not been endorsed by the community in any way. It makes some excellent points and in places does summarize our standard procedure, but in others it branches off into tangents which are the author's own ideas and nothing more. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What I object to exactly is any editing that isn't "forward" editing (see my userpage). There is only one right way to do it: you start with two or more reliable secondary sources about the topic, and summarize them. I object to any other method, including writing the prose first and then looking for sources that verify the prose (or not doing that second step, which is even worse). I object because it's OR. The only way it's not OR is if you're summarizing someone else's analysis (and the only way it's not plagiarism is if you summarize two or more sources). Levivich (talk) 18:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you have your own philosophy, that's fine, but pardon me if I take someone literally saying "my way is the only one right way to do it" with a grain of salt when it conflicts (in its "only way"ness, at least) with norms/definitions developed over 20 years. It may well be that the future of Wikipedia is no unsourced content, erring on the side of deletion/omission in all things, etc., and I suppose it only takes enough people saying "that's just the way it is and it was never any different" for that to become the new reality, but I don't think we're there yet. I'm tapping out of this discussion, though. My objection is basing mass removals and proposing sanctions on rules and definitions that don't actually exist -- I don't even have a real problem with most of these removals, as there are some clear WEIGHT, TONE, and NOT issues (and in a couple cases some borderline OR). I think we should have high standards for content in mainspace, but that when it comes to noticeboard discussions involving conduct, we need to be working with the same basic rules rather than what people think the rules should say. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]