Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive59

Appreciate the info. Cheers. Martial Law 22:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC) :)

Just blocked for 24 hours for repeated personal attacks after warning, after seeing this edit. Can anyone work out any possible way to bring Mr McConaughey back to the land of the living? - David Gerard 22:21, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Now, it's not really necessary to put it like that. We have to bee civil too, ya know. I have been trying to urge Peter to exercise civility. I don't know what else can be done. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 22:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think David was just making a play on words. But you can block him for incivility if you really want :-) --Ryan Delaney ^talk 22:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I obviously missed the "play" of it. Maybe I missed something. Oh well... --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 22:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I was attempting to euphemise "batshit crazy troll", but anyway. By the way, has Mr McConaughey made any good edits at all, anywhere? - David Gerard 11:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• How about "chiroptera-poop mentally challenged troglodyte"? Radiant_>|< 13:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... I count about 10-20 good edits to articles other than conspiracy theory, 9/11, American terrorism, and related talk pages. I wasn't going in to look at all of those since the idea of POV there is too great to make any sense in a short check like that. Hmmm... an idea. BRB. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 14:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Where are they..? I'm sure there must be a few good edits in amongst the user's total edit count of 579, but I don't see any off hand. The proportions have some interest in themselves: only 119 of them are to article space, 123 to user talk alone. What stood out for me were PM's recent exchanges with two notably unflappable and polite editors, JRM and MONGO, on non-existent or nonsense issues, seemingly purely with the goal of somehow, by hook or by crook, needling those users into annoyance. (Unsuccessfully; well done, guys.) A lot of good-faith assumption has already been spent on this user, and has fallen on stony ground. I'm thinking RFAR rather than RFC, sooner rather than later, though perhaps not quite yet. Meanwhile, I advise only the coolest, most laid-back of us to try any interaction (me, I would be the very last). Mind that blood pressure. Bishonen | talk 19:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Assuming good faith, here are the ones that I found. Caveat: I wasn't going near any of the talk pages, the POV pages (like American terrorism or conspiracy theory), or the Wikipedia namespace. [2] [3] [4] [5] (Maybe)[6] (Maybe too)[7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] So, all in all, maybe 25-30 possible "good" edits. However, for every one good edit, there are a couple of edits, maybe not so good. I'm just sayin' is all. Phew... good thing I don't do this for a living, but it might come in handy if an RfAr is ever filed. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 20:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

In my interpretation Peter has been a very worthwhile contributor to wikipedia. Peter fundamentally grasps the concepts of true consensus and collaborative editing and I have a learned a lot from his

Are you serious? Way too negative? Take a look at his contribs and find any more productive edits and diffs. I was trying to do PM a favor by pointing out he wasn't just disruptive. Remember also, I was only going through his main namespace edits in areas specified above. And some of my diffs are being generous by calling them productive. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 21:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I have a tendency to disagree with Zen-master ;-) , but here I fully agree. I also appreciate Carbonite's openly stated attempt to group all <3RR on one page, but I can understand disagreement about it and coming from the 0RR page his actions may look a bit self serving and lacking openness. Apart of that, for an as yet unidentified reason some administrators seem not to understand Peter (see also the discussion with Voldemort on my talk page User_talk:Harald88#A & B's discussion and Wikipedia management)... perhaps Texans and Dutch speak the same language? (I'm Dutch). Also, most of his edits and proposals that I saw on Conspiracy Theory were definitely good, helping to move in the direction of similar but already featured articles. BTW what did David Gerhard mean with "batshit crazy troll"? I did not understand that, thanks! Harald88 23:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh and see also Mongo's comment on Peter's Talk page

User_talk:Peter_McConaughey#Howdy

What you have above is all about "portrayal", you aren't letting the evidence speak for itself. Creating a small list of "productive" edits by an editor already labeled negatively can have the effect of getting people to further unquestioningly accept your negative portrayal -- though I can give you the benefit of the doubt if you assure me that isn't your intention. Regardless, please let the evidence speak for itself and refrain from excessive or multi-layered portrayals. In my interpretation Peter's response to Carbonite's actions was completely reasonable (I give the benefit of the doubt to both parties, miscommunication and misunderstanding can happen). Please simply list any other edits of Peter's you interpret to violate any wikipedia policy, and how? zen master T 22:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Someone and someone else asked if he had made any good edits anywhere. I, trying not to condemn PM without looking at the edits, compiled a list of edits that show he has actually made some productive edits. Now I am beginning to think you do not assume good faith on my part. My list has absolutely nothing to do with Carbonite or their history together... notice I stayed away from the 0RR and highly POV pages. If you really want, when an RfC or an RfAr are filed (which is very possible, it seems) you will have a list of "bad" diffs. I was just creating a list of "good" diffs. If you can find any other diffs that might fit into a "good and productive" category, please feel free to list them yourself below. See you around, my friend. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 22:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

You did/do seem to support the notion Peter has only made "some" or a "few" good edits? That is a negative portrayal and I believe it is completely inaccurate. Perhaps Bishonen and David Gerard are the ones that may have portrayed PM excessively negatively, perhaps inadvertently. Please give me the benefit of the doubt, I interpret the possibility of a hastily made portrayal being excessively negative, perhaps inadvertently, and perhaps even within the motivation of finding "some good" edits. Focusing on some "good edits" of an already negatively portrayed editor can have the effect of switching around the burden of proof, which would be wrong and seems to have almost happened in this case. The actual burden of proof is on PM's detractors to give evidence of any violations, right? zen master T 22:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• Evidence of violations is plentiful on these pages. They're looking for evidence of good edits by Peter. Radiant_>|< 23:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• I've been following this page quite closely and seen no evidence of any "violations" by PM. Suggesting people look for a few "good edits" by Peter is a negative portrayal which I currently assume was an inadvertent mistake on your part? Please discontinue that either way. zen master T 23:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • You apparently haven't been following it all that closely, considering you are unaware that the suggestion that people look for good edits by Peter is actually a serious request by David Gerard, rather than an inadvertent mistake by me. Radiant_>|< 23:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
    • As I said above, requesting editors to look for "good" edits by an editor is needlessly prejudicial as it portrays them negatively, though, because I give you and/or David Gerard the benefit of the doubt that it was inadvertent I will simply ask you to refrain from doing that in the future. zen master T 00:06, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

And I am not even sure why you are arguing with what I did. I was trying to help Peter here. There was a question of whether or not PM had made any good edits anywhere. I, looking for ways to not have him blocked outright, came up with a list of productive edits. That way, no one can say that he has never made a useful edit. I am trying to help Peter, and you are fighting me on it. Why? There are people looking to ban him indefinitely, and I am trying to persuade them to be nice and give him a shot. Did you even read my first comment in this section? I was trying to act in PM's defense. Yet you have already prejudged me as being anti-Peter. Please, continue to assume good faith on my part as I try to save Peter from being banned for good. See you around, my friend. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 14:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I understand you claim you want to "help" Peter and I can give you the benefit of the doubt. However, what I am telling you is your "help" or someone else's question that you responded to actually has had the effect of an excessive and very unfairly negative portrayal of Peter. The notion that Peter has only made a few good edits is completely inaccurate and taints a fair consideration. What further concerns me is now you seem to be hinting that Peter should be banned for good, that is also completely incorrect. Where did you get the notion Peter should be "blocked indefinitely" from, it seems you are definitely against him now? This page only contains a negative fluff portrayal of Peter, the only evidence presented here involves Peter's supposed "name calling". However, in my interpretation Peter's comparison of Carbonite to a troll made sense given the abusive and stifling actions Carbonite committed, though I give both parties the benefit of the doubt that tensions flare and mistakes happen. But it is starting to seem reasonable a small group of editors are systematically trying to portray Peter negatively because they really don't like his

WP:0RR or other posts for some fundamental reason. zen master T

18:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Please listen to me... First, I never said those were Peter's only good edits. I just wasn't going near the aforementioned areas. I was just showing that he was able to make productive edits. You fault me for trying to show Peter in a good light? Second, I never once said Peter deserved to be banned for good. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I said there are "people looking to ban him indefinitely, and I am trying to persuade them to be nice and give him a shot." What is so wrong with me trying to be on PM's side here? You want to be the only one? Third, let me say it again, this has nothing to do with Carbonite. Do you get it? Did you read what the first thing I wrote here was? Did you read any of this? See ya, Zen. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 19:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Responding to Lord Voldemort, you seem to have accepted as a given that Peter should be "blocked indefinitely" and I think that is a completely inaccurate portrayal given the evidence presented. You say "there are people looking to ban him indefinitely" but where did anyone directly state that (innuendo doesn't count)? I am not "faulting" you for anything as I can give you the benefit of the doubt, I am merely only pointing out what you claim to be "help" has actually had the effect of an excessively negative and unfair portrayal. It is true that it was David Gerard not you that was the one who asked the leading question above: "By the way, has Mr McConaughey made any good edits at all, anywhere?" which should be obvious to see was meant prejudicially, perhaps inadvertently, as David's preceeding sentence contains the phrase "batshit crazy troll"... zen master T 19:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

So apparently the answer is no, you haven't been reading what I've been writing? Let me say this one last time, as clear as possible... I was trying to help User:Peter McConaughey from being indefinitely banned, by showing that he has made useful edits, and is not just a "batshit crazy troll". There are people looking to ban him indefinitely (You asked for evidence, here's your diff), and I was trying to stop them by showing PM has been useful. And in fact, I wasn't even responding to David Gerard's question, I was responding to Bishonen's question and comment, "Where are they..? I'm sure there must be a few good edits in amongst the user's total edit count of 579, but I don't see any off hand." If you continue to assert that I am against Peter, which I never have been (show me the diffs for evidence of me being anything other than civil or helpful towards Peter), I will not discuss this matter with you further. Your continued lack of good faith on my part leads me to believe that you just want to argue, and don't care what has actually been written. Please, before you respond, make sure you read this entire comment. Thank you, my friend. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 19:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I've always given you the benefit of the doubt that you are not directly against Peter, but I separately can't ignore the overall excessively negative and unfair portrayal on this page. Your citation of David Gerard's suggestion of blocking Peter indefinitely is precisely my other point, where has David or anyone actually presented actual evidence and made a case against Peter (again innuendo doesn't count)? It seems you've been following all the various Peter sections on this page quite closely? The Carbonite "troll" comment is small potatoes and was reasonable given Carbonite's actions that were interpreted as being stifling and I've seen no evidence of Peter "wikistaling" him, if anything an opposite case could be made. The entire concept of "search for any good edits" by a negatively portrayed user further stacks the deck against them, perhaps you have inadvertantly fallen victim to that, though I can also give David Gerard the benefit of the doubt as cases and arguments made hastily can have, perhaps inadvertent, prejudicial results. zen master T 20:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Listen... buddy... if you have a problem with David Gerard, take it up with him. Quit debating with me. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth (here, and now seemingly on Peter's page). Why do you keep bringing Carbonite up? I will not argue with someone if you won't even listen. I won't argue with someone who seemingly cannot see that I am trying to save PM, not ban him. This is silliness. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 21:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps what you claim is my "not listening" to you is instead us simply disagreeing over whether looking for "good" edits is actually "helpful" or not in this case? I maintain that seeking "good" edits has the perhaps inadvertent effect of unfairly reinforcing a negative portrayal and characterization. I bring Carbonite up because the supposed "personal attack" by Peter against him is the only actual "evidence" on this page, but as I explained above I think that was completely understandable given the situation. What else, if anything, makes you think the case against Peter is so strong that redeeming edits must be found to "save" him? I do take issue with David Gerard's apparently hastily made portrayal that also lacks evidence, but I can give him the benefit of the doubt and need not follow it up with him if he refrains from repeating the same, perhaps inadvertent, mistake. zen master T 21:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Listen carefully, I don't really give a crap about how Peter is being portrayed here. I don't give a crap the history between Carbonite and Peter. I don't give a crap if you can't or won't understand me. I DO give a crap about possible good users getting banned.

You ask, "What else, if anything, makes you think the case against Peter is so strong that redeeming edits must be found to "save" him?" My answer: Someone said they were close to banning him! Honestly, at this point, I don't give a crap what the case against him is. Someone was close to banning him, so I thought I'd help him not get banned. If someone says, "Hey, I'm going to ban this editor unless someone can show he or she is useful", I am going to see if I can show them as useful. I provided quality diffs that show PM as something other than a troll (Again, I don't give a crap if this label was justified, that is not what I am arguing here. If you want to have that conversation, we can do that later, for now, please focus on this.)

I don't know if you are arguing just to argue, but this time I really am done with you. You fail to assume good faith, you put words in my mouth, you don't seem to want people to try and help, this case is seemingly hopeless. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 22:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

So you unquestioningly accepted David Gerard at his word that the case against Peter was so strong that redeeming edits must be found to save him, and, you dutifully took it upon yourself to spend a significant amount of time searching for only that without considering the possibility there is no case, and, you have repeatedly made a point of insisting: 1) you have nothing to do with Carbonite, 2) or David Gerard, 3) and you are not duplicitously against Peter? Ok, I can still give you the benefit of the doubt. Going forward, if you really want to "save" Peter, as you claim, then be aware that focusing on "redeeming" edits to "save" him can, perhaps inadvertently, reinforce an unfairly negative portrayal, which is exactly what almost happened in this case in my interpretation. The case against Peter is actually slim to none, no where near having to search for redeeming edits to "save" him. zen master T 22:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

So the apparent, perhaps inadvertent, effort to portray Peter as needing to be "saved" and the effort by other editors to "save" him has fizzled out as quickly as it started? zen master T 16:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I am just done with you. He's still being watched closely. Don't worry. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 15:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a sock check on

We already got a sockcheck, which showed that they were likely to be the same user, which is the reason for the block. No mediation is taking place, nor is a request for comment taking place. Note that the main RachelBrown account is not blocked: only the likely sockpuppets being used to stack debates. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 22:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

There is an evidence field in the {{sockpuppet}} template for a reason, please fill it in. If it has been proven by a sockcheck (aren't these supposed to be logged somewhere? If so you should link to it as evidence) then use the {{SockpuppetProven}} template instead, again with evidence. Thryduulf 01:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

How has this been "proven"? You say "likely", but it was established elsewhere that the two are real-life friends... Are ALL edits from the same IP or just a few? It could just be that maybe some edits were made while round the same house, college, university or workplace.... --Mistress Selina Kyle 02:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thryduulf, I'm not familiar with the technical evidence, but there has already been a suspicion of sock puppetry in relation to the RachelBrown account. She violated 3RR together with

talk · contribs), all have the same "voice," make the same types of edits to the same articles, and now apparently there is technical evidence to link them to each other, and to Newport (talk · contribs) and Taxwoman (talk · contribs). The accounts add names to various List of Jewish xxx articles, but refuse to supply sources, and it has happened so much, it has become a problem. For example, Londoneye added Laurence Baxter to a list, saying he was Jewish. I couldn't find anything online about this, so I removed it and asked for a source. She wouldn't supply one and reinstated the name, saying in the edit summary that it was "obvious" from his Wikipedia article that he was a Jew. And it is obvious. The only problem (apart from the fact that we're not allowed to use WP articles as sole sources) is that Londoneye wrote the Wikipedia article on Baxter, also using no sources there. This is the the same behavior other editors have experienced with RachelBrown and Poetlister. SlimVirgin ^(talk)

02:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't this kind of thing supposed to work through solid evidence (like any other "conviction") rather than amateur personality-profiling and a bit of sheer guesswork, though? --Mistress Selina Kyle 02:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is, and Mindspillage wrote above that she blocked them based on the technical evidence. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding SlimVirgin's evidence above, RachelBrown did not violate 3RR, her flatmate did who was not aware of Wikipedia rules at that time. She did make one edit under Rachel's account when Rachel had not logged out, see [31]. Regarding the four blocked users, these people are friends from the

UK who have supported each other on some disputes or voted the same way on some vfds but otherwise have different interests. I think that is quite normal for close friends to want to support each other and should not merit a block. If it is considered not advisable for friends to support each other in disputes or vfds a warning should be placed on the relevant user pages before blocking. Arniep

04:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Where is this Arbitration Committee ruling? I was not aware of an Arbitration Committee action against Poetlister or anyone else. This seems most unusual. I wasn't aware that you could be permanently banned because of using sock puppets to try to influence an AFD, especially because AFDs are not "votes". I thought that such a case, if it was true, would warrant a warning only. Why a permanent ban in this case? There also seems to be quite a lot of evidence that they are not sock puppets. It seems extraordinarily odd to suggest that on 22 December 2005 Poetlister acted as a sock puppet for RachelBrown, when RachelBrown's last edit was 10 December 2005, and last regular one was 3 December 2005. Surely that is the antecedent of sock puppetry - as in, not theoretically possible to be true. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 04:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• You don't get permabanned for that, but your sockpuppets usually are. Note that there's generally no way to distinguish sockpuppets (duplicate accounts by the same person) from meatpuppets (getting your friends into Wikipedia for voting purposes only), and hence both can be blocked for that reason. It is not acceptable to get additional new accounts for voting, and whether they are self-made or made by your friends is irrelevant. Radiant_>|< 12:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I concur. Accounts that act like a sockpuppet can be treated like one. --Deathphoenix 14:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

but the accounts were clearly not created for support or voting purposes only, they all have different interests and edit articles on different subjects.

Jewish related articles. User:Londoneye joined on Sept.28th, 2005, most of her edits are on London related articles. User:Taxwoman joined on Aug.9th, 2005, most of her edits are on fetish related articles. User:Poetlister joined on July 11th, 2005, most of her edits are literary subjects, although she has joined in editing Jewish pages since they began to be disrupted and nominated for deletion by User:Antidote in November, whose in now subject of an rfc at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antidote. I feel I am in some way responsible for this as I have asked 3 of these users to vote or comment on vfds, but I did not know that was against the rules. Arniep

20:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I have blocked the socks indefinitely and User:Rachel Brown for a week. Wikipedia is ridiculously tolerant, but we're not actually stupid. See below. - David Gerard 17:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I request a sockcheck on Nuview. This user has admitted on their talk page of using "other personas" and there are two other mysterious usernames that have allegedly edited the David Miscavige article.--Fahrenheit451 22:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Using multiple persona is not prohibited on Wikipedia. Unless you can show that the alleged use of sockpuppets violates policy, there will be no sock check. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Kuban kazak continues re-inserting bogus history of the events, personal comments in his recent edits: [36], [37]. For instance, he re-inserted the bogus historical fact mentioned above, adding some new ones as well.--Andrew Alexander 02:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

As a related question, I wish to ask, can anything be done about Retcon to convey to him that this isn't an OK thing that will just get the sockpuppets blocked and have no consequences for him as he creates another army of sockpuppets? We already have very strong suspicions about new sockpuppets, which I am trying to have verified by someone with CheckUser powers.Tommstein 11:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I've done a sockcheck and discovered that Retcon has a small army of socks; see my talk page for more details. I would like an uninvolved admin to look specifically at Tommstein vs. Tomnstein and IP Law Girl vs. IP law girl, as it appears to me that there's some impersonation involved here. The junior account in both cases should probably be blocked. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Anyone wanna volunteer? Whoever does, please don't find me to be impersonating Tomnstein, pretty please.Tommstein 20:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The Tommstein/Tomnstein case is pretty clear to me; it's the IP Law Girl/IP law girl case that is unclear. The senior account is the sock and has far fewer edits than the junior account, which is exactly backwards of the usual pattern for an impersonation. This suggests that this is not a normal impersonation; I tend to suspect that the first account is a meatpuppet, perhaps a relative or acquaintance of Retcon's, who forgot her password upon returning home and instead created a new account. (Of course, this is entirely supposition.) Kelly Martin (talk) 20:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Nobody? Is this considered an inglorious aspect of being an administrator or something? Do I have to go and start asking specific administrators?Tommstein 21:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I blocked User:Tomnstein since that one seems a clear-cut case of impersonation as well as sockpuppetry. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 11:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Brazil4Linux is avoiding his one week ban through the use of sockpuppets. He was banned for using his sockpuppet User:Quackshot to avoid the 3RR. Now he is avoiding his ban with User:GroundZero. GroundZero is most likely a sockpuppet of User:Brazil4Linux because:

• Same distinct linguistical traits
• Contributes at the same time as Brazil4Linux did
• First edits were pages Brazil4Linux contributed on
• Same views as Brazil4Linuz in Talk:Ken Kutaragi
• Appeared as soon as Brazil4Linux and sockpuppet User:Quackshot were banned
• IP address coming from Brazil just like Brazil4Linux
• Same Internet Provider as Quackshot
• Vast knowledge of Wikipedia for a new user
  • Example: Joining in edit discussion, requesting users for comment and the use of edit summaries

Jedi6 02:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

(Not to be confused with the admin User:Ground Zero, who has a space in his username.) FreplySpang (talk) 02:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Another reason this user should be banned. It is too close to an existing one. Jedi6 02:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Could someone help with GroundZero. He has really gotten bad on Talk:Ken Kutaragi and has made personal attacks on people. Jedi6 06:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Following up on this, it appears the user got blocked for being too close to the admin's username. Ral315 (talk) 21:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Everyking (talk · contribs) has agreed to a stricter period of parole over the next two(ish) days, in return for being unblocked. He has agreed to suffer a 48-hour block if he does not maintain absolute silence on the subject of Phil Sandifer. The agreement expires Christmas Day. Please see User:MarkGallagher/everyking for details. Cheers, fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 07:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

While I greatly appreciate the received two days of silence, I will admit to finding Everyking's continued treatment of his parole as an opportunity to play a great big game of Let's Make a Deal disheartening. Phil Sandifer 15:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You refer to the idea of making deals with scorn, I note. Everyking 17:38, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Can some uninvolved admin try some mediation here with regard to

They insist on keeping a Snoop Dogg album deleted because of "process"? What the fucking fucker fuckery? I have undeleted again. This is too stupid to put up with - David Gerard 11:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine - and that's (hopefully) the end of that. There is plenty crap for those who like to delete stuff without worrying about this. I suppose the only reason to defend process is that it should (?) come to the right conclusion in the end (if it don't than it's broke) and without some form of process we end up with arbitrary decisions and wheel wars. But then, I suppose that argument doesn't hold up when process causes the wheel war in the first place. (I do sometimes think, we could save a lot of time if we deleted

^ask?

11:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, it did fail an AFD as a fraud of an album (maybe it's a bootleg?) but undeleting is probably best if we have an album cover... Redwolf24 (talk) 11:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The album is listed by HMV Japan and waa produced by Snoop Dogg. We do not delete articles about the works of Snoop Dogg, even bootlegs, without a very, very good reason. It doesn't matter what AfD says, it doesn't matter what DRV says, we're running a serious encyclopedia, not a chatroom, and we never let broken processes kill good content. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Would it be so bad to leave good content inaccesible for a few days, while things got sorted out, rather than fighting a wheel war? If there was new information, than WP:DRV would've sorted this out without intervention. -- SCZenz 17:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

In this case, I would say it would be better to block admins who engage in deletion wars. I agree with Tony Sidaway: Snoop Dogg albums don't get deleted. If AFD (temporarily/permanently) lost its mind and decided they should be deleted, I can't say I care. This is an encyclopedia. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 21:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Turns out that that particular bootleg was produced by

WP:V. Pilatus

20:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not good to repeatedly misstate the known facts in this manner. Please stop, or at least keep the falsehoods off this talk page. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:26, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, c'mon! In a nutshell, events were like this: The article was deleted last month as an inconsequential bootleg (note that the nomination was made by User:FuriousFreddy, whose judgement on rap one can trust). It went to DRV a few days ago, was summarily restored by Tony who trusts neither AfD nor DRV (and has no notion about rap to boot), deleted, restored by Tony and deleted (each time by a different admin) a few times more, and finally restored by David, who thought is was a legit Snoop Dogg album. It is now on AfD again, where it will likely end up deleted. All heat and no light. Pilatus 03:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Expertise, claimed or otherwise, on rap or anything else is not a deletion criterion. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 03:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, except if it's expertise on webcomics. Nandesuka 03:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Good one, Nandesuka. Tony Sidaway has a long history of defying consensus and undeleting willy nilly whatever he in his infinite wisdom feels needs to be here, despite AfD and VfU. This was just one more example. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

As long as people are willing to take the position that process always trumps content and the actual rules, actions like Tony's will be necessary. Phil Sandifer 03:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"I am an expert on rap, and I say this article should be deleted, so it should be deleted" doesn't fly here. Sorry. If you want to claim that something meets a deletion criterion or two, you need actual evidence, not your own determination, or an appeal to the authority of another editor you claim to be an expert. And that applies to everyone. Again, if AfD lost its mind and decided to defer to claimed expertise rather than find out for themselves, then Tony Sidaway was and always will be absolutely right to override the vote and undelete the article. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 04:08, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Tony was dead right to undelete this one, and it's emblematic of the increasingly shitty research that goes into AfDs. That an album does not appear on AllMusic shows nothing except that it is not a U.S. release. Not being a U.S. release is not, in fact, a deletion criterion, nor will it ever be. In the face of an album cover and a link to HMV Japan, one needs to actually do one's homework before arguing for deletion. People who make delete votes without doing basic research should expect to be ignored by the first admin with a lick of common sense to come along. If you want to show that an article should be deleted, be prepared to actually spend more than two minutes searching on a single website. Phil Sandifer 03:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't, as it turns out, expect community consensus to be ignored by any admin, whether or not that admin has a lick of common sense. I do expect an admin who regularly arrogates and overturns community consensus to eventually lose his status. It's happened before, and it will happen again. If you can't implement (or at least accept) consensus, even when it goes against your own desires, you're on the wrong wiki. Nandesuka 03:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The reason we allow ourselves to be governed by community consensus is that we assume that the community is going to be reasoned, do their homework, and act in accordance with pre-defined principles of what Wikipedia is. When the community fails to do these things, then Wikipedia's basic premise has been violated. Put another way, the community is empowered to make decisions, but the community is not empowered to completely and totally fuck up the project. Phil Sandifer 03:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Garbage, Phil. If DRV had been allowed to run its proper course it would have determined that the album in question was a random mixtape. Now it's back on AfD, and the only thing that has been achieved is that a fair number of people are pissed at the waste of time and the disregard for process that actually works. Time for a finger-wagging and an encouragement to stay away from deletion-related things for a while. Pilatus 03:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It is difficult to take DRV remotely seriously when there are people who regularly vote with no regard to content whatsoever, and when it routinely feels the need to send every article it undeletes, no matter how wrong the original deletion, to AfD to double check. The original AfD was done on bad research, and anyone who trusts DRV to actually do fact-checking and additional research has never actually read DRV. If you want the deletion process to be taken seriously by people, you need to behave seriously, and stop the playing-to-win bullshit that permiates all of these discussions. It seems as though more people here care about whether this is finally their chance to "get" Tony than actually have any investment in the article. Phil Sandifer 03:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe DRV was wrong, but at that point you have the option of creating a new article, not based on the old one, that demonstrates notability, verifiability, etc... Simply restoring the old article and letting sit there gives the impression that you're more interested in bucking consensus than improving the encyclopedia (note, however, that it's perfectly okay to override speedies if you think that they were invalid-

Black

03:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

If the issue is "The article is fine, people just didn't entertain the concept that it might be a Japan-only album," though, there's not really anything to change - this seems to be a case where AfD just didn't do its homework, leading to serious doubt. That the doubt turned out to be unfounded, and the album turned out to be non-notable is beside the point - it should never have been deleted until the research had been done. Phil Sandifer 03:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, that the voters were "wrong" doesn't invalidate the vote- it does, however, help your case at Deletion Review immensly. It's unwise to overturn a vote like that.--

Black

04:25, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"It seems as though more people here care about whether this is finally their chance to "get" Tony than actually have any investment in the article." Oh please. Calling Tony out on yet another disruption of the consensus-forming process isn't "playing to win," it's called "discussing administrative moves that some of us think are stupid", with a dash of "forming consensus." If we were "playing to win," a phrase you seem to love to use, we would engage in different tactics. Just to pick an example of one such tactic, perhaps we'd start an RFArb against him without trying to reach consensus first, either through conversation, mediation, or an RfC. That, it seems to me, is a textbook example of this "playing to win" you seem to be such an expert on. Nandesuka 04:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

You're the one who used the phrase "playing to win" here. I think this has less to do with winning and more to do with the fact that you assume bad faith in Tony, leading you to find him at fault even when it's AfD, not him, that fucked it up. Phil Sandifer 05:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Either you're drawing some subtle distinction between "playing to win" and "playing-to-win" that is unworthy of you, or you've simply forgotten this edit, less than an hour before my comment, where you talked about "the playing-to-win bullshit that permiates all of these discussions." And I tell you what. Find me another admin who regularly arrogates and overturns consensus on AfD and Deletion Review, and I'll publically say that when she or he does it, she or he is being stupid, too. I don't have to "assume bad faith" to think that when Tony regularly overturns consensus, he's doing a stupid thing. Good or bad faith ain't got nothing to do with it. We have consensus mechanisms to make these decisions, and by cutting them off before they have reached their end he is, in my opinion, committing an offense against the consensus-building process, and insulting everyone who participated in it. His motives could be as pure as the driven snow, and it would still be wrong. We should expect more of our admins than we get from him, when he acts like this. Nandesuka 13:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Gee Snowspinner, that sounds like you're

brenneman^(t)(c)

01:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

68.74.10.146 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) This user has a quite impressive

67.38.10.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) ...Again. --Apostrophe 05:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

68.248.82.134 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) ...Again. --Apostrophe 21:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It being That Time of Year again, multiple users, some registered, some IPs (and some in both modes) are pursuing their assault upon Kwanzaa, some just enjoying gross and/or racist vandalism, others insistant on rampant POVification. I've used up my three reverts for this lovely task; someone else please help out. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's now on my watchlist. -- SCZenz 23:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Kwanzaa really is under blatant attack from anonymous POV warriors. I don't think it's possibly to hold them back within the rules, but there are extremely blatant problems with their edits. I request a previously uninvolved admin to take a look and asses the situation. -- SCZenz 01:38, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I had to revert blatant vandalism when I first got to the article then after reviewing the page history I sprotected the article temporarily.

Jtkiefer^{T | C | @}

---- 01:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not an admin (I came across this page--and dispute--on RC patrol), and I've said as much on SCZenz's talk page, but: While many of the anons' edits are clearly blatant vandalism, simply adding a link to a site critical of Kwanzaa does not constitute "POV-pushing". In fact, given the article's total neglect of the small but non-negligible anti-Kwanzaa "movement" (not sure of a better word for it), it helps move the article closer to NPOV. Kurt Weber 01:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The situation is difficult, because the way the links were added was inappropriate. One was liked as "the TRUTH about Kwanzaa" while another's title referred to it as a "Holiday from Hell". Either could have been liked as "an article critical of Kwanzaa," but was not. I admit I was getting frustrated towards the end of my efforts to deal with the page, which is why I stopped and called for an uninvolved admin to take a look. -- SCZenz 02:53, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Where possible, we should try to synthesize and summarize significant and verifiable arguments held by a non-trivial minority of people, in preference to just providing external links. It is not our responsibility to provide a link to every kook with a website, and doing so degrades the quality of our articles. Nandesuka 03:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for the backup, folks. I guess you can see how I was rather frustrated, though of course I shouldn't have acted alone. Regarding the anon POV warriors, part of the problem is that one of the anon POV warriors is also a registered user (User:TurtleTurtle); that's why sprotect didn't help at all. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Today there have been a couple of disturbing (to me at least) happenings on the Christmas article. Firstly, there is a developing edit war on whether dates that consist of only the day/month should be linked (see Talk:Christmas)--some editors are de-linking repeat occurrences on the basis that this clutters that article with links, others have restored the links because removing them breaks date format preferences. Secondly, the article has been semi-protected. I think that semi-protection is a bad idea because this article will get a lot of visits in the next 24 hours and, as for the main page featured article, I think that protection of any sort shoudl be avoided. JeremyA 02:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention, the FARC process for this article is also continuing, so we might have to replace this as the FA for the day. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 02:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that that has been done already. JeremyA 02:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I checked and the FARC is still going on, and Christmas was removed from the front page, replaced by Ido. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 05:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the Christmas Article should be reinstated on the main page. It got there by merrit and its removal was just censorship. If it doesn't belong there oughtn't be any mention of Kwanzaa, or Haunuka hereonout. Chooserr 05:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I do not believe it was done by censorship, but based at [39]. The person who made the call was Raul654, the main co-ordinator of the FA process and articles. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 05:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I do not know Raul654, or his edit history, but will say inspite of this that ANYONE can abuse power. Chooserr 05:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You can see the actual edit at [40] I do not think this is an abuse of admin powers, since he is the one that can select which articles to appear on the front page and he can change it if there are significant concerns. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 05:26, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Have you even read the Christmas article? There's no way it's in good enough shape to be on the Main Page, let alone featured anymore. It has *NOTHING* to do with censorship. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 05:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Administrator mikkalai (

Next block

Blocked for 1 week for persistent and fully aware distortion and deletion of official info, e.g., in

Read here very careful mikka: I was just reverting Node's edits which are considered persistent and malicious vandalism. So you have to block Node, not me! And your persistent adding of Cyrillic spelling of Moldovans toponyms is also persistent and malicious vandalism. Moldovan (Romanian)'s official spelling is in LATIN ALPHABET. So, block yourself!

talk

08:26, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me - this is a content dispute not vandalism. Please do not use blocks when dealing with content disputes. Mikka is clearly has a conflict of interest, by blocking Bonaparte for edits to a page in which he is actively involved in editing, and he is also involved in a content dispute with Bonaparte at this same page. At

Republic of Moldova. They are not cases of simple vandalism. If the 3RR is broken, the Bonaparte can be blocked, but not for one week. I hope he is unblocked now. Thanks, Ronline ✉

07:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Erm, for future references, please place a notice, either AN or ANI; duplication in both is excessive. El_C 11:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Administrators may note the edit-warring occuring between me and instantnood in various pages such as

• Thomson Road
• List of railways in China
• Hong Kong Central Library
• Districts of Hong Kong
• Template:Asia

National dish is also becoming a tripatite war between the above and User:Yuje.

For your information and neccesary action in relation to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Instantnood 2.--Huaiwei 10:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I think peace is needed here. I'm the cause of it, like the

Talk

10:38, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

These can better be handled by RfC/Huaiwei for the time being. — Instantnood 11:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Instantnood and I have been agreeing to disagree here: [41] Should I start another poll? >.< enochlau (talk) 06:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Resolved for now. Please see Enoch's and my user talk page. :-) — Instantnood 09:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

While the admins generally ignores the above, and probably deems it unnecesary to enforce the outcome of the above Arbcom, the disputes threatens to spreads to other pages. Temple Street is the latest victim.--Huaiwei 19:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

And probably in

Char siew rice and Char siu soon too?--Huaiwei

19:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I have deleted the project page Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia as "Not remotely compatible with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality." The project was specifically "intended to nurture and keep wikipedia's pro-life/pro-catholic articles and categories." Needless to say, if any such articles exist they must also be made neutral or deleted if this is not possible. Any project with similar partisan aims, as far as I am concerned, must be deleted on sight. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

That was the edited version. This text was edited only after the mfd started. The original text, the one I nominated for deletion, simply mentioned "an organization for the purpose of rallying voting on articles about topics such as abortion." Or, as Shanedidona described the alliance to Darthgriz98, "a CAtholic organization for the preservation of conservative values, basically, CAoW is a redily summonable voting block in case a pro-life article is threatened. ... Vote Pro-Life!" Anything they say about intending to nurture is just a disguise for pov pushing to me. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo risin'} 18:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to show me that policy, Tony. Probably the closest in regards to deletion is CSD A6. Basically all that you've done is become what you chided me for being here[42]. The only difference is that I bully those who bully or abuse the trust of others, you bully those who disagree with you. karmafist 21:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not aware of bullying anyone. I deleted that page because there is absolutely no possibility of this project ever being acceptable on Wikipedia. Such pages must be deleted on sight. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it was right to delete it (twice) while the vote was taking place. It looks very much as if the consensus is going to be for delete, but it would be more respectful of the community not to anticipate the result. I have no wish to keep it, but I can't see that it's going to do any harm to Wikipedia while the vote is coming to a close. However, deleting it a third time could be harmful in the sense of causing bad feeling and frustration. AnnH ^(talk) 15:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Kwanzaa is listed as semi-protected, but was just vandalized by an anonymous editor (63.19.128.24). What's wrong? Firebug 15:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure when, but the protection log shows an unprotection earlier today and then a reprotection a few hours later. Perhaps the vandalism was at that time. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 19:19, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Why is the article semi-protected?? The idea is just ludicrous on the obesity article! --Sunseeking Jay 18:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• Looking at the page history, it would appear that there's been a bit of a vandalism spree the past few days. I would assume that whoever protected it will be unprotecting it relatively shortly. JYolkowski // talk 18:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Considering the high amount of vandalism it's been getting recently, including some from

t·c

) 18:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

This user put a {{

I've blocked him as a troll. He is either Willy or someone pretending to be Willy. Either way he is trying to disrupt. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:16, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, taste the corn indeed...............yep that was a totally pointless insertion. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 19:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you trying to imply that I can't spell? I'm offended! It's Korn! not corn. The fer ack t the hat eye can knot speel is an otter mat her. Eye wrung ever three think threw a spill cheque two make shore fist. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Nah I just wanted to insert a random statement here :) Merri ykrismas Tireesa — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 19:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

So your signature is advocating tasting

t

10:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes! He stated on my talk page that he wouldn't let anyone taste him, I informed him that we'll just have to hold him down. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Insane, the wikipedia editors are — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 23:41, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I've come across a date format warrior, Hmains (talk · contribs). I tried explaining to him that dates are linked to allow formatting by user preference, but he continues to remove links around dates. He's also changing BC/BCE. I know there was some discussion and perhaps an arbitration case on something similar in the past. Can anybody point me to the appropriate policy/Arbcom rullings? --GraemeL ^(talk) 19:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/jguk 2. --cesarb 19:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg was adamant that we address this in our climate dispute 2 case -- Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for no other purpose than to convert them to their preferred style. - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute 2 Raul654 20:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I've recently been involved in some minor edit warring concerning BC/BCE/AD/CE. The "fighting parties" are now working towards consensus, compromise and resolution at Wikipedia talk:Eras. It is possible that Hmains has been inspired by that issue. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo risin'} 20:07, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, the prefered style is not to link dates anyway. Martin 20:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You're flatly wrong there. Adding square brackets "

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) Raul654

20:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course, that applies only to full dates, whre date preferences will work. I think it would be better if some form of wiki-markup other than a link were used to activate date prefernces but that is anotehr issue. DES ^(talk) 20:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

It was the removal of links from full dates that originally attracted my attention. I only noticed the BC/BCE changes after I had left him a message about why full dates were linked. --GraemeL ^(talk) 20:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)