Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive826

A large number of porn-star BLPs have lately been spammed by a number of IPs who have repeatedly added utterly non-notable purely promotional "awards", named for porn video producers and distributors (Juliland Award, AEBN VOD Award, TLA Raw Award, with the recipients being selected by those companies) and intended as promotion for the sponsors of the awards. All of the edits sourced only to the porn business magazine AVN Magazine, a trade journal that covers the adult film industry. As a result of the repeated spamming multiple IPs were warned, at least one IP was blocked and several porn star bios were semi-protected. Today a recently created now auto-confirmed single-purpose account, Hanswar32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), resumed the spamming, with even more intensity than before, and refuses to stop in spite of being pointed to WP:Notability and WP:Notability (awards), instead edit-warring over the material. So since I have no desire to break the 3RR-barrier on any of the articles I would appreciate if one or more admins would look into the matter, and do whatever they feel is needed... Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours for edit warring across articles. I'll talk to the user about appropriate means of dispute resolution. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

User indicates a willingness to stop edit warring and engage in discussion. I've unblocked him so he can get on with it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@

ES&L's message on the users talk page, just above the block message, which clearly states that the awards aren't notable; which is also my opinion). What we will probably see now is repeated attempts to establish the notability of the "awards", possibly through sock/meat puppets achieving "consensus" on each article separately for adding the awards. Something that would be easy to achieve since the only ones who ever edit the articles are SPAs with obvious strong connections to the adult video industry. So IMHO the best way out of it would have been to give Hanswar32 a much longer block than the few hours they got. Also please note that Hanswar32 seems to be very familiar with how Wikipedia works, how to make edits/reverts, WP guidelines etc, which contradicts his/her claims of being a totally new user. So what we're seeing is most probably an experienced user who out of necessity, i.e. because of semi-protection of several articles, created a throw-away account for the spamming, instead of continuing to use IPs for it like before... Thomas.W ^{talk to me}

16:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:SPI. However, in the absence of evidence of that, giving him an opportunity to prove good faith is the proper thing to do. If he attempts dispute resolution and fails to gain consensus for any changes, future repeats of this behavior will be a clear signal that working in good faith isn't what he intends. What's important is that he has now agreed to stop warring in the articles, and we will see what he does towards resolving the issue properly. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk)

16:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@

ES&L's message on my talk page and neither of you have been able to successfully defend your “opinion” on the matter. I never claimed to be a “totally new” user but clearly stated to be “relatively new”. Yes, I have some experience on Wikipedia as an IP user but I’m still learning about the policies and compared to the rest of you, have considerably less experience. Why would I continue as an IP user when Wikipedia offers several benefits to encourage a user to create an account? Again, I’m not spamming and at least 2 other editors agree with me. It’s sad seeing you try to distort reality over a dispute instead of engaging in a meaningful discussion in order to resolve it. What’s sadder is your repeated assumption of bad faith, clearly against Wikipedia guidelines. Thankfully, we have level-minded and reasonable administrators that make just decisions and prevent biased editors from silencing those who disagree with them. Hanswar32 (talk

) 04:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been back to your talkpage since I fully, completely, and successfully defended my position - I was very polite, non-threatening (if I remember correctly), and a sincere attempt to be helpful towards someone who I believe is also sincerely trying to be helpful. There most certainly was no attempt to "silence", and I'm certainly not "biased" - indeed, I don't believe I've ever edited nor read an article in the porn world (unless it's something that came up here at ANI as urgent). The overwhelming

pillars of this project) appears to be that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page - whether it's porn awards, minor book awards for an author, local gallery awards for an artist of photography, etc. Yes, it's nice to win an award of some variety - I once won a really nice award about an article I contributed to in Afghanistan, but it's not a notable enough award to include someday on a biography both on-Wikipedia or anywhere else but my résumé and on the wall in my den. ES&L

10:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• First, I can't condone edit warring for any reason. Second, if an award ceremony is truly "notable", then it would have its own Wikipedia article about it. However, I don't know what citing something like Wikipedia:Notability (awards) does for anyone's argument, since it appears to have been labelled as irrelevant to the entire Wikipedia project as of around 2007. If the concern on the part of some in this dispute is that certain pornography-related articles will be "kept" at AfD because of someone winning a non-notable award...well, I've yet to see that actually happen at AfD (maybe someone else has though). Lastly, I don't personally have a problem with award content being added to any Wikipedia article...as long as it has a reliable citation attached to it. Guy1890 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• GUY, please do not fall victim to the kind of WP bias that you just exhibited. Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Wikipedia article. That logic is flawed and backwards. I like and appreciate WP just as much as anyone here, but I have never based my impression of a subject on whether or not it has an article. --
  talk
  ) 16:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• "Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Wikipedia article." No kidding, but, here on Wikipedia, we have this thing called notablility, and things that are truly notable (for whatever reason) will eventually end up with their own Wikipedia article at some point. Does that mean that subjects that don't have their own Wikipedia article aren't important in the real world? No, it just means that, for the purposes of Wikipedia only, that they aren't notable. Again, I'm not opposed to including non-notable infomation in Wikipedia articles, as long as a reliable citation exists for that same information. For instance, being married doesn't make one notable, but including the reliably-sourced information that someone is, in fact, maried in a Wikipedia article isn't a problem with me.

I'd personally like to see where the "overwhelming consensus" exists "that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page" on Wikipedia. I'm not saying that that consensus doesn't exist, but I haven't come across it yet. Was this decided somewhere else at another time? Guy1890 (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

We tend to put things differently, but I agree on both counts and would like to see evidence of the "overwhelming consensus" as well. --

talk

) 03:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that any award an individual has won should be allowed to remain on their page. I definitely wouldn't use an award that isn't notable enough for a WP article to try to establish an individual's notability and keep their article at AfD, but I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. I don't see whats promotional about the awards. Do you really think that someone who's reading a porn stars WP article is suddenly going to go out to purchase their films just because they looked at their awards section and saw these awards? Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@

ES&L: I recognize your sincerity and for the record I wasn’t referring to you at all with regards to “silencing” other editors or being “biased”. Congratulations on your award and I fully understand the viewpoint on the inappropriateness of including non-notable awards on a person’s biography. The dispute here however differs due to the nature of these awards and the issue is summarized quite nicely by Scalhotrod

.

I agree with everything Guy1890 said except I’d like to point to his attention that on my talk page I mentioned 3 types of awards and know of at least 2 others that don’t have Wikipedia articles of their own, yet are allowed to be included on all Wikipedia articles for which there is a recipient. To touch on what Guy1890 said about reliably-sourced information, I’d like to reinforce that all of the awards being disputed have reliable citations.

I’m also joining Scalhotrod and Guy1890 in their request to see evidence of this so-called “overwhelming consensus” which has so far proven to be a myth. The only thing I’ve seen thus far is consensus shifting towards the side of including these awards as I agree with both editors, along with Rebecca1990. The only talkpage that I know of which exists about this issue Talk:Tanya Tate shows consensus of including the award.

@Moonriddengirl: This issue affects over 40 articles that I’m aware of, am I supposed to open the same discussion on every one of their talk pages? Or is it sufficient in light of the above support, to go ahead and return the removed content in the absence of any consensus against such a move? Hanswar32 (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi,

WP:RFC if the scope is wide enough, since that may attract more contributors to the discussion. Personally, this is the approach I would take before adding or removing any content related to this award from any articles, so that consensus is clear. Once edit warring has started, things can blow up rather quickly. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk)

20:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest opening this up at an appropriate policy noticeboard, most likely BLPN. The pornography project is pretty much moribund. This wasn't a controversial matter until very recently, when a few accounts that do little or nothing beyon adding borderline-promotional and promotional content to porn-related bios began bulking out bios with well-below notability-threshold awards. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Ronreisman

Huldra has been attacked by User:Ronreisman (with some clues about a potential export or tag team) on his talk page: after she warned him to take care with WP:1RR. Ronreisman :

• "given the infamous reputation y'all have on the internet."
• "I'll take this as confirmation that y'all do, in fact, work together to suppress and distort facts in the service of propagandistic POV."
• "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap. Thanks for the invitation."

I add he had already been informed very kindly about WP:1RR : here and that I was myself attacked the same way by him 4 weeks ago:

• [1] "@Pluto2012 : You disruptively reverted my edit because you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles by improperly suppressing relevant and well-sourced information in order to promote your own partisan goals."

I complained of this to him (next edit :) "And you insulted me strongly, violating WP:AGF." but he considered himself as acting right:

• (edit summary) : "Dishonorable and dishonest action breeds disrespect.")

He went on (with Ykantor [2]) so I just left it and removed the article from my Watchlist.

There are other examples of misconduct in his edit summaries (in interactions with Hudra, Nishidani and I):

• [3] Please stop POV-pushing, OR, propaganda on Wikipedia,
• [4] Nish is also misrepresenting the refs;
• [5] so that he is not misrepresented by misleading wording by a Wikipedia editor;
• [6] Untrue info was introduced;
• [7] Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article;
• [8] Request to Pluto2012 to stop violating WP:AGF and WP:RS, and to cease pov-Pushing that is detrimental to the articles veracity and quality.;
• [9] (...) propaganda when it actually praised the book's veracity;
• [10] Reply to Huldra's misrepresentation of a referenced source (...) and discusses politically-motivated *untrue* accusations against this source;
• ...

Ronreisman doens't seem to understand that his behaviour is not acceptable and he doesn't mind about

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Notification to Ronreisman. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

While [11] is somewhat confrontational, I don't see problems in all those diffs you provide alleging misconduct in edit summaries. I suggest you try

WP:AGF yourself. Toddst1 (talk

) 13:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

You mean he is "Good Faith" when he performs these "Personal Attacks" and you claim that "Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article" or "you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia" or "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap" to someone after he made WP:1RR is in compliance with the 4st pillar of wikipedia.

Could you argue how I should "try WP:AGF myself" ? Pluto2012 (talk) 14:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I read through a bunch of the cited edits, and Ron's edits look reasonable to me. Greg (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

In general the controversy seems to be about one side that wants information deleted, and another side that wants information added. Since the added information is reliably sourced, and nobody has demonstrated that it is a tiny minority's viewpoint by citing a plethora of other sources, there seems to be no good reason to delete it or to threaten to delete it.

I have read all of the edits listed above. The article edits themselves look fine to me.

I did not understand why

The

Arab-Israeli conflict. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you inappropriately edit pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision

" section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at

Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures

, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

If 1RR was the issue, he would have been reported at

WP:AE and not here. Zero^talk

11:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Pluto2012

Pluto2012 also claimed that

This is primary source and it cannot be used if not supported by a secondary reliable source. That's well known and basic rule. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC) Pluto2012 (talk) 06:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

to Pluto: This is misleading. wp:rs:"While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred.". Ykantor (talk) 09:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I will delete this if I don't find any secondary source or if none is provided. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Pluto2012 is wrong and Ykantor is right. Pluto2012 should not be deleting, or threatening to delete, other editors' contributions that come from primary sources "if I don't find a secondary source or if none is provided". What

Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

Pluto2012 also claimed that another policy applied when it clearly did not: this claim that when inserted information doesn't describe every point of view on a topic, the right answer is to delete it under

It is completely legitimate to add a single quote to an article, if that is all that one has at hand or all that one has time to add today. Others who have other quotes with other points of view should add those too, rather than deleting the first quote. Wikipedia is not written by historians or encyclopedists; it is written by ordinary people who are individual editors in a collaborative process. Pluto2012 also made several false and tendentious statements about Ronreisman. For example, immediately above this edit, cited above by Pluto2012 as the sixth "other examples of misconduct", Pluto2012 said

You put back the "Nazi allegence" tag whereas you faild to provide the battles to which al-Qawuqji participated for Germany. You had promised to do so.

Ronreisman had never promised to do so, nor was he required to do so. The whole issue was made-up by Pluto2012 inventing another illegitimate rule claiming that an infobox can't include a flag indicating military service under a country unless the proponent can state what battles the subject fought in. Many people who served in the military never fought in any battles; battles are irrelevant to military service. Ronreisman's alleged misconduct in this citation was that he defended himself in the talk page against Pluto2012's false statements about nonexistent rules.

User:Pluto2012 should pay careful attention to the purpose of Wikipedia, seeking to add article text to describe areas of conflicts more fully, rather than inventing fanciful rules and applying them to other editors. Pluto2012 should not delete article text that he sees as one-sided or primary source material.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You are entirely wrong. It is perfectly reasonable to expect good sources for contentious claims. In an area like I/P not doing so would be disastrous. You also missed the point. It was never about whether he fought in any battles but whether he served in the military at all. He didn't. (And congratulations for finding a way to shout in 24pt type.) - Zero^talk 11:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC

Zero0000 : This is not a reference to our recent discussion about

Haj Amin al-Husseini's WWII military affiliation with the Waffen SS. Gnuish is referring to Pluto2012's claim that "you faild to provide the battles to which al-Qawuqji participated for Germany. You had promised to do so." This refers to Fawzi al-Qawuqji's military service, including his commission as a colonel in the Wehrmacht (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawzi_al-Qawuqji#German_Military_Service ). Pluto2012 and Huldra repeatedly objected to mentioning Qawuqji's allegiance to Nazi Germany in the article. They objected to a series of high quality RS, apparently in an continuing attempt to keep relevant information out of the article. The nit that attracted gnuish's attention was Pluto2012's contention that the definition of 'military allegiance' required a list of battles cited from certain secondary sources (and *not* in memoirs, nor in US Government Historical Documents, etc.). Gnuish (and I) take objection to Pluto2012 falsely claiming I agreed with his contention, despite several responses that made it clear that 'battles' were not a requirement for honorable military service. Pluto rejected a series of RS that substantiated Qawuqji's services to Germany, in some cases using false claims that these RS had been castigated by other RS. In each case these claims turned out to be either untrue or Original Research (eg an Israeli historian told Pluto2012 that a well-regarded volume was unreliable; Pluto then used this hearsay as justification for rejecting all references to the volume). At one point Pluto2012 added a good scholarly reference (one of the few constructive edits he's contributed to this article) that was thoughtfully sympathetic to Qawuqji. The author explicitly stated that she would not comment on Qawuqji's WWII record, and cited a Journal article by German historian Gerhard Höpp as a good source on this subject. Pluto2012, however, argued that even Dr. Höpp's peer-reviewed article was not acceptable RS, since he characterized it as a 'primary source.' When the weight of multiple RS made it clear that Qawuqji's German military affiliations were undeniable, Pluto2012 made impolite statements and then tarred the entire article with a drive-by 'Disputed' banner, apparently in an effort to cast doubt on the the well-documented facts in the article.Ronreisman (talk

) 21:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You are correct that I misread Gnuish's words; apologies for that. I won't comment on the content since I didn't examine the sources and anyway content disputes are not supposed to be discussed on this page. Zero^talk 23:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

There are no sources "sympathic" and "unsympathic" to anybody.

Each topic has a list of WP:RS sources and wikipedia editors have to report all of them fairly in providing the due weight to each of them.

Ronreisman and Ykantor just decided to report only some of them and that's the only problem.

Now, as proven by the intervention of Gnuish who had not edited wikipedia for 1 month there is a collaboration to act as a team and they just insult and attack those who disagree.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

@ Zero: yours:"It is perfectly reasonable to expect good sources for contentious claims. In an area like I/P not doing so would be disastrous.". Do you mean that Wikipedia rules should be ignored? the

I stand by what I said and have no idea why you think you have replied to it. Zero^talk 08:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Is it sustainable to ignore Wikipedia rules and to adapt other other unwritten (to my knowledge) rules? Is it acceptable that editors are required to behave according to unpublished rules? Ykantor (talk) 04:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

"Defame. Defame. There will always remain something."

When you write "behave according to unpublished rules?", you mean that you disagree that each of us has to report all (reliable) points of view on a matter but instead you claim that you can just chose those you want to report. Well, no Ykantor, to comply with WP:NPoV, you have to report all of these, even those you disagree with: both those who are pro- and contra- any thesis or analysis. On Adolf Hitler, on the 1948 War, on Amin al-Husseini, on all articles. But this is particularly true in articles that are controversial and delicate. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Huldra

User:Huldra also cites a Wikipedia rule that does not apply, [17]

In: "Morris; 1948", al-Qawuqji is mentioned on pages 61, 68-69, 89, 92, 133-138, 157, 278, 280-283, 338-342, 348. Of all those pages, "someone" has seen fit to quote (in extenso) p. 61, and only p. 61. Why? ... There is one word for this, and that is "cherry-picking". (Or WP:UNDUE, do be more wikipedia formalistic).

In order to insert a quote from a reputable source, an editor does not need to justify why they did not insert every other possible quote from that source, under penalty of having the quote deleted. If there are a majority of reputable sources that disagree with a quote, then someone who thinks it is "cherry-picked" like Huldra should insert balancing material (from the same or additional cited sources), rather than arguing for the deletion of material inserted by others.

Huldra also deleted 1800 bytes of relevant, reliably sourced material in this edit, with the summary saying only "undo propaganda; see talk". Calling someone else's edits "propaganda" is not showing

User:Huldra should pay careful attention to the purpose of Wikipedia, seeking to add article text to describe areas of conflict more fully, rather than deleting text that she sees as one-sided.

Gnuish (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Nice how you elided the part of Huldra's comment where she explained it in detail. Zero^talk 11:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Ykantor

This description:"You disruptively reverted my edit because you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles by improperly suppressing relevant and well-sourced information in order to promote your own partisan goals" is accurate but, in my opinion it is too mild. As presented in a previous

If again no action is taken against Ykantor for this provocation and attack, he will feel free to go on again and again. So what ?

Anyway, the case of Ykantor is different. He is a particularly problematic contributor who refuses to make his behaviour evoluate and who has no collaborative spirit. He is just "right" and the remaining of the world is "wrong":

• see the "famous" WP:A/E that he launched and where it would be presented that "I am cheating and lying" too.
• his behaviour at the end of a km-long discussion he launched at the article Adolf Hitler. And still today he refuses the consensus (he is alone against the 5 contributors who have been editing this article for years) and despite this go on to edit the talk-page again and again.

Pluto2012 (talk) 07:54, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

You do not understand what is a personal attack. Saying e.g. "Pluto is a lair" is a personal attack, but stating that you are cheating and lying is a fact, backed by a list of such events.

* You mention the Hitler talk page. Looking at the opposing parties there , you may learn how to behave yourself. None of them is lying or cheating or attack personally.

*Concerning Arab Israeli conflict articles, you repeatedly delete a well supported text and images, because it is not to your anti Israeli taste, although the NPOV rule states that you should not delete it but rather add a supported opposing view (provided there is one) Ykantor (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

See also this Dilbert cartoon, which expands on the importance of criticising the behaviour, not the person (comment on content, not on contributors). --

talk

) 11:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

@Demiurge: there is of course a difference between criticising the behaviour and the person but in the current case, these are the persons who are criticized and not (alleged) behaviours.

When Huldra warns Ronreisman of 1RR and when you see what Ronreisman answers, there is a problem. When you see that a Ykantor dares to writes "you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles". If this is not personal attacks then there is no more personnal attacks.

A personal attack is not just a childish insult.

@Ykantor: you go on with personal attacks. That is not acceptable. And yourself should see that all contributors critisized your behaviour, asked you to stop and some even invited you to read some of my comments.

Pluto2012 (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I wish I would be able to write such a nice and accurate English:"you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing Wikipedia articles", but unfortunately it is a quote only. I wonder if you can guess who is the source? Ykantor (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Dilbert is great, as always. However there is a difference. The chief there says:"You are terrific, but..." while I am not saying that. Moreover thanks God, I am not his chief.

* In your user page, you refer to the "Pcount" excellent tool . How does it count? are minor or major edits considered the same? Is there a tool that count article text deletions only ? (i.e. negative contribution? I would like to use such a tool to check Pluto's contributions. He is unique since it seems that his main article space activity is deleting other editors contributions.

Your user page states: " ...occasionally venture into more contentious areas.". I will appreciate it if you have a look at 1948 Arab–Israeli War. I have listed some problems here- Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#the article has POV and .22dubious.22 problems, and the major problems cannot be dealt with, because of Pluto's repeated deletions of a well supported text. Ykantor (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

If your accusations were true, your proposals about the article about the '48 war would have received positive answers from other contributors. On the contrary, you received negative answers and more on your side, you didn't consider worth participating to any of these discussions.

The problem is that you are

WP:NOTHERE to contribute in respect of wikipedia rules as proven by the fact you just refuse to agree complying to WP:NPoV in reporting all Pov's on the difficult issues of the I-P conflict : [18]

.

Pluto2012 (talk) 21:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Pluto's incivility (again, sigh). Why must you show your incivility by dragging my reply to another location?

I followed the rule:

If you are responding to someone else's remarks, put your comment below theirs and placed my reply to Demiurge1000 in the proper place. I will appreciate it if you drag it back to the initial and right location. Ykantor (talk

) 21:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Pluto re-use his smoke screen tactics, writing all sort of vague accusations, in order to cover his proven and repeated cheating, lying , deleting of a well sourced text because it is not to his anti Israeli taste. Ykantor (talk) 06:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

More evidence of Pluto2012 refusing to engage in discussion and that he instead attempts to exploit rules and force his view on others without debate can be found on this talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27bala#Sketch_of_2003_which_launched_much_of_the_controversy

Note his incredibly patronizing demands of me which he uses to revert all of my corrections and additions without discussion. Wikieditorpro (talk) 06:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

@Ykantor who writes : "Pluto re-use his smoke screen tactics, writing all sort of vague accusations, in order to cover his proven and repeated cheating, lying , deleting of a well sourced text because it is not to his anti Israeli taste. Ykantor"

What smoke ? What cover ?

You complained this article was pov-ed. And you simply didn't participate to the talk page but anyway: your (numerous) comments were rejected by user:Zero0000, user:Nishidani, User:ZScarpia or I. Nobody supported you except me once. 1 constructive comment out of 20...

This was the case on 1948 Arab-Israeli War (on which I am very active) because I know the topic (

WP:DROPTHESTICK

... But just reject the idea.)

This discussion is useless. Admnistrators decided not to intervene, which I deeply regret.

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Following on from

Done. Jehochman ^Talk 18:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Regarding the comment you left there, he is indefinitely blocked, not banned, so you may wish to make a correction. —

talk

18:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

He is de facto banned, not welcome to participate. If he wants to use his talk page to appeal his block I will be happy to restore access. He can email me. If he wants to use the page to stir up disruption, as he was doing, he does not need access. Jehochman ^Talk 00:41, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect NE Ent 00:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

How exactly does suggesting he would sock to fix issues that need fixing warrant removal of talk page access? Jehochman's revocation seems based off him asking others to handle issues on his talk page, which has repeatedly failed to gain approval as a basis for removing talk page access. For what it is worth, I just dealt with the copyright issues Russavia noted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The consensus of the prior ANI discussion was that Russavia could maintain talk page access. Unless there's evidence the requests he's made on his talk page are specious, the facts that he has a) made the request b) waited a week for someone to take care of them indicate a willingness to abide by the block. It's most illogical in this context to remove talk page access and the most likely result is not that he won't ip edit, but rather that he'll ip edit sooner. NE Ent 19:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

This must be some kind of a joke, all he was suggesting to edit as IP to fix copyvio stuff nobody seemed interested to fix. This could be hardly seen as block evasion, especially if the report is made by a user having a dispute history with Russavia. --Denniss (talk) 20:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that would most certainly be block evasion. We don't just pretend it isn't because one thinks the potential edit might be useful any more than we permit edit warring because one thinks they are right. Resolute 20:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Russavia showed any concern over copyright issues prior to being blocked? Frankly, this sudden interest in the topic, combined with threats to evade the block to fix these issues looks very much like attention-seeking to me. And we all know how Russavia craves attention... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

He is an admin on Commons so it makes sense for him to have such concerns and I don't believe such concern over copyright issues is something that merely arose following his block here. Presumably, he would have just dealt with them himself with little fanfare prior to being blocked.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support revocation of talk page privilege for indef-blocked editor abusing it. As discussed previously, R. was on the knife's edge, and threatening to sock for whatever reason is sufficient to cut him off. No amount of Wikilawyering will change that. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: this is a classic example of us cutting off our nose to spite our face. If there's genuinely a problem (and reporting copyright issues sure as hell ain't it) then short temporary page protection until the issue resolves itself is the way to go, rather than permanent talk page and e-mail disabling. Hell, it's an ineffective and stupid thing anyway, given all Russavia needs to do is ping, say, me or another editor via Commons, but at least this gets more eyes and is more transparent. Nick (talk) 22:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

  I suspect Russavia's desire for attention is a more likely motivator than transparency. Resolute 01:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

  I couldn't care less why he's doing it, but if he's reporting copyvios that's a good thing. Legoktm (talk) 07:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

  Wait, why is he even blocked if what he's doing is good? Epicgenius (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – if Russavia's talk page privs are kept, then we may be able to be informed of some potential copyvios, as he is still a net good to the project (however small), even when blocked. If his privileges are revoked, we will receive nothing of benefit. Epicgenius (talk) 01:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I do not think we should have in between statuses. If he can do beneficial work, he should be unblocked. If he's going to be disruptive, then he should not participate at all. When blocked the talk page is used to request unblocking, to discuss the reason for the block and that sort of thing. It is not used to edit by proxy, to grandstand, to bait other editors (such as by threatening sock puppetry), or to incited repeated ANI threads. I am not opposed to discussing conditions for Russavia to be unblocked. Jehochman ^Talk 01:38, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Why do we have

WP:TBANs then? Someone not using his real name (talk

) 02:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. They tend to be humiliating. The same objective can be achieved by directing an editor to avoid a conflict and let them know they will be blocked if they cause further trouble there. If RussAvia wants to be unblocked and restricted to working on copybook issues only, I wouldn't object, but he has to indicate a willingness to follow the rules, and avoid past trouble. He can also use his Commons talk page and any editors who want to help can go there and read that page. We have no power to restrict his activity there. Jehochman ^Talk 02:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment, maybe find a go-between email just for copyvio issues on a trial basis? It's such a hassle to work on an article and then realize some or all of it is a copyvio and can't be used. Or find a subpage just for copyvio issues for a few months to see if these concerns can be posted, and transferred to those who specialize in copyvio issues. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Per DD2K's comment below, this does smack of putting the cart before the horse. Sportfan5000 (talk) 06:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, in this particular case agree with comment by Nick, above, the rationale is logical and sound when applied in this instance. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 02:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - The indef knife has already been stuck in to the hilt, no need to twist it. Pointing out copyvios is a positive action that helps the project. Why make it harder or more complicated to do so? There are plenty of people watching his talk, so anything like disruption would be quickly caught, and all other posts will be closely monitored too. He should have talk priviledges. INeverCry 04:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support Pushing at the edge of his block is a drama inducing tactic and blocked users shouldn't be encouraging anyone to proxy of them. If they are worried about copyvios they can sort out the cesspit that is commons without worrying about our problems. Russavia is no longer a member of the en community and should butt out.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  04:41, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• WP:BLOCKBANDIFF clearly states indefinitely blocked users are "Still a member of the community" NE Ent
  12:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose revocation We are shooting ourselves in the foot here. Finding and reporting copyvios is always good for the encyclopedia, whether coming from a blocked editor or not. KonveyorBelt 06:18, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• This isn't a vote. Russavia is indeff blocked. Which was reaffirmed twice(ANI/AN). It's absurd to claim he needs Talk page access to rescue Wikipedia from Copy right violations. Come on now. There are several venues to report such violations, and Russavia is not the only person in the fricken world that can do it. So Support revocation, or whatever. If Russavia wants to appeal his block, there are ways to do that. This vote here is a waste of time.
  talk
  ) 06:38, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

  And yet....no one else reported those copyvios until Russavia did. I don't think you're aware of how bad of a copyvio problem we have. Maybe you should take a look (and hopefully start helping ;)) Legoktm (talk) 07:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support revocation. Russavia's playing games with the limits on the very limited set of things indeffed users may do here, and announcing the intent to sock/IP edit unless his requests are promptly complied with crosses the line. There's also rather curious off-wiki incident where someone who has been alleged to edit as Russavia made comments to a publication not quite admitting the allegation to be accurate in a way which seems to me designed to increase the chances of another
  WP:OUTING dramafest. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk
  ) 06:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support revocation. OTRS is a perfectly acceptable alternative for addressing for copyvios if Russavia cannot be bothered to address the reasons surrounding their block. As such, Russavia is in no position to request improvements to the project, even those as serious as copyvios, until the reasons for their block are acknowledged and an explanation is provided on how the problematic behavior will be avoided in the future. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 07:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

  No it's not. OTRS is already backlogged, and on-wiki communication is always preferred to off-wiki ones if possible.Legoktm (talk) 07:42, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The number of requests we get and the ability of OTRS agents to address those requests are not really relevant here. What is relevant is an editor who is making demands on other editors when their rights to edit have been revoked, and evidence that the editor has threatened to skirt around their indefinite block. I don't really care how high-and-mighty the cause is; the editor has an obligation to address the terms of their block before they continue to contribute as an editor. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 08:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The copyvio queue doesn't generally have much in the way of backlog issues.©Geni (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support revocation Deny attention. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• This is stupid. Revoking a user's talk page when they're pointing out copyvios is a terrible idea, and is just going to make our backlog of unaddressed copyvios even worse. Legoktm (talk) 07:42, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Russavia has several other methods available to report copyvios. Let him use them. People's concerns about his record of disruptive behavior is not "stupid". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Like what? That's not what I was calling stupid, I was saying that restricting a user's ability to report copyvios is stupid. We need all the help we can get in resolving copyvios. Legoktm (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
      • OTRS. His Commons talk page. Emailing his friends. Starting a blog called "Wikipedia Copyright Violations Report". Paper, a pen, a stamp and an envelope. A Western Union telegram. Fax. Telex. Sadly, the Pony Express has gone out of business. Anything but English Wikipedia. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support revocation Anybody interested can watch his COM talk page. No need to encourage this funny game. (There was a user User:Pieter Kuiper who was very expert in reporting copyvios but blocked for other reasons. But I didn't see Commons allow to use his skills for that particular matter under the block. The same should be applicable here. If one person is blocked; he is blocked. Period. It pains, but slowly, someone will fill the gap.) Jee 08:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support revocation, essentially per Cullen. From his behaviour, Russavia clearly has difficulty letting the project(s) go - this is a pretty big blocker on getting perspective on the problems that led to his block. Deny attention, give him some space, and if he wants to solve for copyvios he can work out why his behaviour was a problem and mature so that an actual unblock is possible. Ironholds (talk) 08:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support revocation The good nature of those wanting open season at the talk page is noted, but the user went to a lot of trouble to produce an article that trolls his adversary Jimbo, and is now going to a lot of trouble to find something to post guaranteed to raise more trouble. There are other ways to assist the project which avoid
  WP:DENY violations. Johnuniq (talk
  ) 09:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support revocation per
  WP:DENY seems more sensible - maybe that doesn't have enough dramaz though....Begoon ^talk
  10:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment In his comment linked above, Russavia admits to already having block evaded is block, "as an "IP editor" as I did on the LAN Colombia article many months ago". IMO this needs to be dealt with first, and secondly blocks and bans are meant to protect wikipedia, removing his tp access isnt going to protect while letting copyvios go. Its a balancing act, his tp access is meant only to appeal his sanctions. Murry1975 (talk) 12:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I've been far too involved in things in the past regarding this user, so a vote would be a bit unseemly. There are things for both sides of the battleground here to consider, though. On one hand, if the project is hosting copyvios, then it is in the best interests of all that they are corrected, regardless of the how's & why's of how it is done. On the other, the project is not dependent on one person to correct problems, and these will be found and corrected eventually without this user's input. Tarc (talk) 14:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Heh - the last part of your comment makes sense. Of course the project is hosting copyvios - thousands of them. The other part implies we should allow unrestricted TP access for <<insert your least favourite blocked user here>> when they want to post about them, regardless of other considerations. Complete the sentence yourself. Maybe it's right. I don't think it is though. It would certainly make for some interesting appeals, and some award-winning gamesmanship. Fascinating thoughts though, and drama potential unlimited. :) Cullen gave a comprehensive list of communication channels if the need is there. Begoon ^talk 15:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Access should be removed for:

• abuse of {{Unblock}}
• abuse of
  notifications
• personal attacks on other editors

• Editors who don't find blocked users comments of benefit can simply unwatch the page. Russavia's comments about copyvios were so "disruptive" that no one noticed for a week, it seems. NE Ent 15:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Didn't say they were disruptive. This section might say that, though. Lots of ways of looking at it. Mine is it's deliberate gaming for attention from an indef blocked user and undesirable for that reason. You obviously disagree. Happens. Succesful though, I'll give him that - got himself another 5 minutes of "fame". I'm done here now - per DENY. Begoon ^talk 15:27, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think that Russavia is a vandal. People generally tend to spit in the faces of indef blocked users. Maybe it's not "five minutes of 'fame'", but rather, legitimate concerns. Epicgenius (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Ah, ok. In that case all I can recommend is some research. The search function should be enough - failing that Google. Sorry if I can't be any more help than that. Begoon ^talk 16:26, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Talkpage access should be removed for abuse of talkpage privileges, not constructive use of them. Do we really want to be accused of closing our ears to someone for reporting copyvio? ϢereSpielChequers 16:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Dose of reality here people, revoking his talk page access is not only going to fail at addressing his threat to sock, it is actually going to encourage him to sock and it is unlikely that there would be much of a way to stop him from socking successfully given past experiences. The most practical option is to just let him use his talk page to point out issues. At least then it is one of us non-ebil editors doing the work and not an ebil sock.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Let's revoke access if and when he does sock – this may be an empty threat. As WereSpielChequers says, talk page access should be removed for the abuse of the talk page, and Russavia is not abusing his talk page access, at least not yet. There's no reason to revoke that access unless abuse actually does happen. Epicgenius (talk) 18:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • He already has socked. He admitted this in the very comment which triggered this ANI report. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

break

In the above section it is incorrectly asserted that I disagree with the assessment that "it's deliberate gaming for attention from an indef blocked user." In fact, I neither agree nor disagree with that assessment; I actually just don't care. All that really matters is mainspace. All this "stuff" behind the Wikipedia:: prefix is supposed to be about keeping that going smoothly. Editors who chose to focus their time here -- especially folks with sysop bits -- really ought to have some idea of the lay of the land before taking action.
More than being a single collective community, Wikipedia is a collection of overlapping communities. One subcommunity cares more that disruptive editors be prevented from continuing to disrupt; another cares more about mainspace quality issues, specifically copyright. Both bring value to Wikipedia and should be respected. So the question becomes: when an indef blocked editor flags a copyvio, what's the best way to deal with it?
From the motivation of the blocked editor standpoint, the likely possibilities are:

• legitimate concern over copyright violation
• attention seeking behavior.

The best course action is one that doesn't require speculation to what the motivation is; there are actually two good choices. One is to fix the copyright with a neutral message: i.e. "rm copyvio" not "remove copyright violation that indef blocked editor flagged..." The second is to ignore it. The former is win-win in that the content is improved and the flagging editor gets minimal attention. The second doesn't benefit mainspace but provides total denial.
Staring another ANI thread when it was already hashed through five months ago is not the way to "deny" attention; it's more like, as David Bowie sang years ago, "putting out a fire with gas-o-line".
There's a non-archived discussion at blocking policy on this very issue; three months old and not many comments. We're much better at participating when we have a specific individual to attack/defend than an abstract principle. In WIkipedia-as-it-should-be, we'd all comment on the blocking policy talk page and come to a consensus on talk page unblock only yes or talk page unblock only no. In Wikipedia-as-it-is, I honestly and regretfully expect that that discussion will end in the usual "no-consensus" muddle and we'll just keep doing this again and again ... NE Ent 17:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

It's a lovely, long answer, and much of what you say is true. Read my answer above to Tarc though - if you don't want ongoing drama, which you say you don't, this is a hell of an odd path to choose. Begoon ^talk 17:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

He's not blocked exclusively for reporting copyvios. The deciding factor is that he's grandstanding and baiting by saying that he's going to evade the block if people don't hop to it and do what he wants them to do. This is manipulative, and it's an abuse of the talk page. Removing talk page access prevents the grandstanding, baiting and manipulation. It also shows Russavia that he has to grow up and act responsibly if he wants to get unblocked. If he doesn't want to be unblocked, he should completely leave the project. If he wants to report copyvios, he can do so via alternative channels that have already been enumerated. Jehochman ^Talk 17:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. I concur with all of that. And in case anyone missed any of the channels Cullen enumerated, here they are:

OTRS. His Commons talk page. Emailing his friends. Starting a blog called "Wikipedia Copyright Violations Report". Paper, a pen, a stamp and an envelope. A Western Union telegram. Fax. Telex. Sadly, the Pony Express has gone out of business. Anything but English Wikipedia. Begoon ^talk 17:47, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

But yet en-wiki is where these copyvio problems exist, and where they should be handled. Not a whole lot of people will take notice if he starts broadcasting copyvios on an external site, especially if he can't tell us on en-wiki about it now that his talk is removed. People will take notice if he posts them on en-wiki precisely because the issues are on en-wiki. KonveyorBelt 18:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• The stupidity of this is painful. Removing copy-vios from Wikipedia is a good thing. Full stop. I'm glad to see some reasonable editors amongst the usual torches-and-pitchforks. The fact that some editors view a removal of copy-vios by a blocked editor no differently that a blocked editor adding copy-vios is simply mind-numbing. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Socking or threatening to sock is a very bad thing. Full stop. Fixing copyvios without socking or threatening to sock? Priceless. And if R. and just continued to do that, he'd still have talk page access. Instead.... BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 20:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Evading a block to vandalize is socking. Evading a block to continue an argument is socking. Fixing copy-vios is not socking. Vowing to fix copy-vios on one's talk-page is not "threatening to sock". Wikilaywering with the argument: "well it's technically still socking" is far more disruptive than anything with which Russ has "threatened" us. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
    • How about an indef blocked user grandstanding and baiting on his talk page? Do you think that's good? If Russ were to quietly sock and do good edits I would 100 percent ignore him. It's the grandstanding and baiting that's the problem. Jehochman ^Talk 21:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
      • @Jfr&b: Wikilawyering? The only "wikilawyering" going on is from an editor trying to carve out a loophole that exists neither in policy nor practice. Editing with an IP while blocked is evading a block, period, full stop. (No "nudge nudge, wink wink", just "say no more".) BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 01:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Sock puppetry which support your claim that evading a block to fix a copyvio is permitted? —Psychonaut (talk
      ) 09:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support restoration I am not aware of any disruptive edits that this user may have made on his talk page while blocked. Notifying the project about copyright violations certainly isn't disruptive, but is something which is very much needed. Also, some of the comments above do not make sense. Some users seem to have the opinion that he is free to report copyright violations and that people are free to act when the copyright violations have been discovered, but the user should not report the violations to his talk page but somewhere else. What would this achieve? What is the difference between reporting copyright violations on a talk page on this project or on a page on Commons, if the outcome still is that the content will be deleted? --
  Stefan2 (talk
  ) 21:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

  Do you think his threat to sock unless somebody did his bidding were appropriate, collegial, and helpful to Wikipedia? Jehochman ^Talk 22:40, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support revocation. Russavia's use of his talk page to report copyright violations was both useful and tolerable, up to the point where he started issuing threats. Now that he's making a nuisance of himself by openly flouting community decisions, the benefits of talk page access no longer outweigh the drawbacks. Identifying copyright violations isn't so specialized a skill that we can't do without the trickle of reports he provides; anyone active at Wikipedia:Copyright problems can see that spotting copyvios on Wikipedia is like shooting fish in a barrel. More help there from editors in good standing is always welcome. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:25, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose It often seems that certain Wikipedians have an unhealthy obsession with Russavia. He may have some faults (who doesn't?), but he also has a lot of good points, and from what I can see, he's quite often been wronged against - that's not to say he's a living saint either. If people don't like his talk page, then they have the option of taking it off their watch list and ignoring it. Regarding socking/block evasion, I wonder if that's really a wise path to tread for him and for those who are so concerned about it. When there is a will and an inclination it's just as easy to check user, as it is to sock - so I fail to see why some here are becoming quite so hysterical on the subject.  Giano  09:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

• I have restored talk page access on condition that he won't use the page to rile other editors. For instance, he shouldn't announce plans to sock, nor insult people nor anything else that would annoy. If he wants to politely list copyright violations, that's acceptable. Jehochman ^Talk 10:58, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you Jehochman, that's the most sensible solution.  Giano  11:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

• I agree, a sensible step to take at this time, as long as we all remember the attached conditions if anything happens in the future. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

• Without going into this convoluted case itself, may I suggest to the (talk page) unblocking admin that a brief notice be placed on the now-unblocked talk page summing up the situation, so that the user in question and others posting there are under no illusions as to consequences. Jusdafax 13:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• He did [19] NE Ent 13:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)