Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive309

I've reblocked Tyler for a week with e-mail blocked for sending rather abusive e-mails to me. Is a week justified? Maxim_{(talk) (contributions)} 20:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's abusive, yes. You shouldn't have to put up with that. --Haemo 20:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, given the popular subject, this page seems to receive tons of vandalism, mainly from anons. I just reverted to a version two days ago, and the only changes that stuck (despite a number of other vandalism reversals) were other anonymous vandalism. I suggest semi-protection. (Is this the right place to suggest this?) Rigadoun (talk) 20:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:AIV if it continues. I don't think there's a need for protection right now, but I have watchlisted it and will protect it if there is any more vandalism today. --B

20:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Erm, well, I just semi-protected it for 48 hours before I saw your reply. The history showed ongoing juvenile vandalism from several different IPs. Review welcome, of course. Raymond Arritt 20:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just found that and put this there too, before I saw this reply. I saw six different IPs today, perhaps I'm in a different time zone? If you're watching it then you can see if it's needed (and perhaps address this at my comment at RFPP. Rigadoun (talk) 20:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am reporting this user again, i reported him yesterday i believe but no action was taken however today he has carried on vandalising and has ignored warnings, all his edits are on michael jackson ans all he seems to do is insult this LIVING PERSON. [[1]]. Realist2 20:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You want to see

WP:WARN for the templates), and when they breach the final warning report them to AIV. It's an IP, however (and appears to be static) with nothing but vandal edits, so someone might want to just slap it with a block now. Tony Fox (arf!)

21:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Immediate attention needed at DYK

Resolved

The red urgent warning caught my eye. The page is supposed to be changed every 8 hours. It is 2.5 hours past due. Assistance, please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know/Next_update Archtransit 20:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

• I updated it. It isn't really a matter urgent enough for reporting at the Incidents noticeboard (
  WP:AN would do). DYK tends to get backlogged anyway. Thanks for keeping an eye out. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak)
  21:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Sorry. I first compared this issue with several on the ANI board and thought that the urgency was at least equal to those. I also thought that AN was too slow a board. I also saw it earlier but didn't post here until 2.5 out of 8 hours had passed. Thanks for the resolution. Archtransit 22:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Deleted. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Kiolt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has made a single edit to create a talk page that I'd mark db-attack if it were an article. --Jamoche 23:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted. For the record, you can mark any page with {{

criteria for speedy deletion, the 'G' signifying that it's "General" and applies to all namespaces. —bbatsell ¿? ✍

23:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I put a db-attack on a User page earlier today. Corvus cornix 01:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

There is an anon editor who keeps causing problems. Mainly, he keeps inserting POV into the GM minivan pages; Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Uplander, Chevrolet Lumina APV, Oldsmobile Silhouette, Pontiac Trans Sport, Pontiac Montana, Opel Sintra, and Chevrolet Venture. The original IP was 216.95.17.215, who got blocked. Since them, many more have sprung up, doing the same thing, and I have reason to believe that this is the same guy, just using a proxy. I can't document them all here, so check the histories of each of those pages every so often to see what IP he is using lately. I might be able to talk this guy into stopping (our talks have made progress), but this guy is getting harder to contain, and if I can't talk him into stopping, he will require immediate administrative attention. Karrmann 23:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a definite pattern here. I'll semiprotect for 1 week. Rlevse 01:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)...someone already protected some, so some expire 16 Oct, some 19 Oct. Rlevse 01:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

For the last month or more,

(Please note that there has been at least one previous ANI thread about this: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive281#More_eyes_needed_on_Michael_E._J._Witzel.) --Akhilleus (talk) 23:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I protected the article for a month due to edit-warring, or at least until this discussion could be resolved. See protection log. The page was protected on the conservative, albeit wrong, version. Daniel 00:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. An IP editor edited the

I warned him. You can do the warnigs yourself. Vandalism that warrants blocking (they should be warned first) should be reported at

WP:AIV.Rlevse

02:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference between this page and

WP:AIV?-- Penubag 

02:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism happens all the time, so it's not usually considered an "incident" except in unusual circumstances.

WP:AIV is a page that is set up to deal exclusively with vandalism. --Bongwarrior

02:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

(e/c)

final warning). Also, the bots only catch very very obvious vandalism that has little to no chance of being a constructive edit. People do the majority of the work. See Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol for more info. Mr.Z-man

02:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

oh, ok, thanks -- Penubag  02:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Rewinn user page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rewinn

The user Rewinn has been stalking the "Fairness Doctrine" article with the aim of enforcing his POV. NPOV violations include extensive use of Weasle Words and Original Research. What is less tollerable is that he invokes these standards as a sword and sheild for his own violatory edits. This I belive demonstrates that he is acting in bad faith.

For example:

Rewinn deleted a list of politicians who had expressed support for reinstating the Fairness Doctrine and replaced it with the weasle-worded, "Conservative commentators have asserted that various Democratic..." The original list of specific politicians was sourced to an NYPost article. Rewinn's protest was that each politician had to be specificly quoted in order to meet muster. However, rather than work constructively and in good faith, he just deleted and replaced with weasle words. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=162604562&oldid=162603617

The POV that Rewinn is trying to enforce on the article is that support by officials to reinstate this set of regulations is a "conspiracy" theory, the "claims" of which are "controversial". Indeed, Rewinn renamed the section of the article "Controversy" back in August. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=148535242&oldid=148534907

In his very next edits, he actually deleted two direct quotes from the politicians named in the nypost article he later deleted for not containing direct quotes. This he did without mention in the talk page while merely asserting that they were "undocumented" in his edit summary, when in fact both items were sourced. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=next&oldid=148534579 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=next&oldid=148534907

Now on the talk page, some months later, when two other direct quotes were added to the article, sourced to a news article and audio documentation, Rewin risably challenges their authenticity of the quotes as well as their authority to document what the quoted speaker means. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fairness_Doctrine&diff=163724410&oldid=163720997

You can see how this is churlish behavior at best. at worst, it deliberately undermines the ability to arive at any text with any factual fidelity whatsoever.

Rewinn has both introduced Original Research in a blatant fashion and challenged others' content, citing it as Original Research.

For instance, he has argued extensively with a Byron York article linked in the section in a manner violatory of OR.

He does so first by linking and quoting extensively from a Center for American Progress study not referenced in the York piece.

"Linked to CAP report" - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=150444138&oldid=150100226

It should be noted that the study argues not against York's identification of a campaign to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine, but rather for the need for the return of such legislation.

York's piece does quote from an annoucement issued by the group Media Matters for America in which there is an open call to commence a campaign to reinstate the Fairness doctrine.

To this, Rewinn writes himself into the article as "those" "on the other side" "who disclaim (sic) such an effort" thusly:

On the other side, are those who disclaim such an effort. The website of Media Matters contains no announcement of a campaign to reinstate of the Fairness Doctrine.[2] (earliest version) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairness_Doctrine&diff=162606742&oldid=162604562

The citation is a link to a site search of the Media Matters website he performed himself for inclusion into the article. If this isn't OR, I'm not sure what is.

What is cynical about Rewinn's violation of OR is his flinging of allegations of OR violation against sourced, relevant content he intends to delete.

For instance, he argues with the inclusion of two direct, solidly sourced quotes by claiming that their position within the frame of "conspiracy" - which he authored - constitutes OR. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fairness_Doctrine&diff=163585524&oldid=163584836

finally, I'm not a big tattler or complainer, but I felt compelled to report Rewinn's behavior up to now because he is always threatening administrative action against those who challenge him; suggesting that he is keeping record of critisisms which he characterizes as "personal attacks" and the like. yesterday he included a 3RR warning against me in his edit summary after I had reverted once.

I hope you recognize as I do that this sort of behavior isn't clever, but abusive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.181.23 (talk) 17:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like something that should be addressed at

dispute resolution. Corvus cornix

22:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

thanks for responding. i'm not so sure this is a dispute resolution issue. it's not so much that the material is contentious as that we're dealing with an editor who's behavior is inimicable with the arrival at concensus. 38.98.181.23 15:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

rewinn has reverted again. I've proceeded with the nessesary level-1 templates for vandalism, NPOV and 3RR warning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.181.23 (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Used {{Uw-vandalism2}} and supplemental message on user's talk page. -- HiEv 13:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

(I hope this is the right place to ask this.) There was a large amount of clearly irrelevant text about "nutraceuticals" added to the meme article by Dulcinea07 (talk · contribs · logs) (see here). I reverted the edits, and I'd like to put a warning on the user's page, but I honestly don't know what warning to put. Clearly the material doesn't belong there, as it has been shoehorned into the article, but it doesn't seem to fit any of the standard vandalism clauses. Am I wrong? Have I missed something? Also, the text seems oddly familiar. I think I might have seen it inserted somewhere before. Recommendations? -- HiEv 22:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Try one of the nonsense tags; they're appropriate for random spam, particularly if you use a supplemental message about it. Rdfox 76 22:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. I used {{

WP:VANDAL says it's "suitable for nonsense". -- HiEv

13:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Not sure it all fits that, even if the vast majority is out of place. The para he had on multilevel marketing might actually be considered as a meme.LeadSongDog 16:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to request an administrator (or two or more) to participate in a discussion being held on

Thats a content dispute, I'm not sure what you would want an admin to do that any other user can't? Viridae^Talk 03:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not a content dispute at all but rather disruptive trolling. The citation is accurate, yet Arcayne is claiming that it is not accurate without giving an ISBN of the version he owns. I personally went to the bookstore to check on Arcayne's claim and found that he was mistaken, and he does not own the book in question. The content is not in dispute; it's in the ISBN cited on p. 212, word for word, as it is a direct quote. Yet, Arcayne continues to claim that it does not appear in the book. —Viriditas | Talk 03:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

That is still a content dispute unless Arcayne is disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I suggest you open an RfC on the matter. Viridae^Talk 10:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• Hyphaze (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Above account appears to be a

blocked. G11ed the userpage. -- lucasbfr ^talk 08:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

What does everyone think of

User:SockOfPedro. When do I get the $100 ? This is a bad thing. Pedro :  Chat  11:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The subpage has more details, perhaps the heading of this is a bit misleading: User:TDC/Prize x42bn6 Talk Mess 11:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the sub-page before replying and was being facetious. Obviously this guys after one person but this is still a very bad idea to stand handing out "rewards".

WP:REWARD is one thing but financial bonuses for hunting down socks? That seems totally against the ideals here.Pedro :  Chat 

11:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Speedied as an

☎

13:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Concur. Good choice. Pedro :  Chat  13:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for reporting this here, but I couldn't find the appropriate page to report it. If you look through this editor's contribution history, you'll see the last several edits are vandalism. Can this IP be blocked? Jeffpw 11:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Not enough warnings yet + only one vandal action in the last few hours. Final warning given. Will monitor. Next time

WP:AIV after final warning, but thanks for the help. Pedro :  Chat 

11:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Pedro! I had added the AIV link to my userpage, so now I know exactly where to go to deal with that. I don't do much vandal reporting, but think maybe I should start. Jeffpw 11:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – IP re-blocked

• The previous block had expired. Block re-set longer, as it appears to be a static IP.
  ELIMINATORJR
  13:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi there. I need some advice on how to deal with User:Yusef Masushef. His short contrib history contains a lot of political sopaboxing and little of anything else. His user page is also rather offensive and requests to have him alter it have been met with personal attacks and incivility as can be seen on his talk page. Any ideas on how to proceed? Tiamut 13:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the inflammatory Twin Towers image. I would point out, though, that your comments to him ("you must have a brain the size of a pea") were
  ELIMINATORJR
  13:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – semi-protected

I would have reported to

Hello,
this IP address has made approximately 15-20 edit to the Chocolate chip cookie article in the past 15-20 minutes, all vandalism. Could someone please put a quick 24 block on it? It resolves to Tazewell Public School in Reston, VA.

Jeremy (Jerem43 14:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC))

The best place to report vandalism for a quick response is

the admin intervention against vandalism page. Tony Fox (arf!)

16:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked the sock. Let me know on my talk page if any more socks show up. JoshuaZ 17:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much! --Kateshortforbob 17:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 16:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This article was repeatedly vandalised by an anon IP on 24th Sept and page was semi-prot as a result. The same guy is back with a different IP

I've taken the liberty of putting a pp-semi on this for one week. This guy is not getting the message. and is still reverting reversions. --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 16:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP in light of the past edits. In the future, if it's just one person, place the warnings on their talk page as laid out at

WP:RFPP. Thanks! —bbatsell ¿? ✍

16:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Was about to come back here & delete request having just raised at

WP:RFPP Thanks. --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs

) 16:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have given a proper warning. — Edokter • Talk • 17:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

For future reference, where can I find templates like the one you used? I didn't notice it on

WP:WARN. Thanks for your help.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back

17:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It is there. {{subst:uw-copyright}} is the one you are looking for. Add |<name of article> and you will have the exact same.

Spryde

17:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, there it is. Sorry I missed it.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 17:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

134.53.64.83 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) keeps adding complete nonsense into Heroes. Since I reverted myself, I don't know if I should block this IP myself, being "involved" and all... or is vandalism exempt from this? — Edokter • Talk • 18:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in cases of obvious misinformation like that, you can block if you reverted; however you should really give him more than a level 2 warning first. Mr.Z-man 18:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I just did for 24 hrs due to the several instances of vandalism in the history and that he was warned. I think it would have been okay if you'd blocked, but I do what you just did, if I ever have a question about whether I should take an admin action, I always ask another admin to look at it. It's best to not give anyone any reason to question your integrity, or at least as little chance thereof as possible-;) Rlevse 18:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) — Edokter • Talk • 18:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Koavf (talk · contribs), Wikima (talk · contribs), and A Jalil (talk · contribs) are engaging in slow-moving editwarring (slow-moving largely due to the fact Koavf is on 1RR per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Koavf) on many Western Sahara-related articles. Koavf's revertwarring on these articles is what got him community banned in the first place (the arbitration case overturned it to give him another chance), and Jalil and Wikima spend a large proportion of their time undoing all of his changes.

As you can see in the edit histories of this article and this wikiproject, as well as the other pages in Wikima's recent contributions this is a long-term, continuing problem, and blocks aren't working (Koavf has been blocked a ton, while Wikima was blocked for 3RR this time last year). I'd like some suggestions on what should be done about this - blocks, paroles? (I'll say right off the bat that protection won't work, they'll just wait it out.) Picaroon (t) 23:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Defense You'll notice that I am posting on talk and not blind reverting, except in the case of vandalism (e.g.) I keep on trying to seek consensus on talk and have engaged an admin at

Legal status of Western Sahara), they simply ignored the admin's injunction and deleted scholarly source citations because it disagreed with their pro-Moroccan political agenda. That's to say nothing of the POV forks, copy-and-paste violations, reversion of comments on talk, controversial page moves, etc. that have been happening with these two users for over a year now. Will some admin please deal with their nonsense? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M

23:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wikima (talk · contribs) — fanatically biased towards all things pro-Morocco; I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he works for the Moroccan government.
• A Jalil (talk · contribs) — clearly biased towards Morocco, but can at least be communicated with (perhaps he just doesn't see the bias).
• Koavf (talk · contribs) — means well in his attempts to curb Wikima and A Jalil, but plays their game instead of trying to use Wikipedia's dispute resolution process (which, in his defense, has IMO utterly failed this issue so far - its appearance here is encouraging, however).

I don't think Wikima or A Jalil should ever be allowed to edit anything remotely related to Morocco or Western Sahara or the SADR ever again, but failing that I would at least hope their edits were reviewed closely for a good long while to ensure NPOV. Koavf's position, IMO, has not always necessarily been on the side of reason, but has been on the side against those who are against reason. I think you'll find he will appear to behave more once this issue is actually addressed by administrators, instead of being continually ignored. ¦

Oh come on mate, Koavf is the exact equivalent of wikima, only simply a monolingual. Means well, he's a stubborn close minded git who likes to do stealth reverts on others edits after laying low. (collounsbury 00:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC))

Reisio, you used to be part of the war defending Koavf's positions, and it is good to mention. Your input above follows the same path. You were less fanatic than Koavf is, but your talk page speaks for itself about your editing attitude, the discussions we had with you, and your brawls with others, that in the end led you to being blocked. Saying that you "think you'll find he [Koavf] will appear to behave more once this issue is actually addressed by administrators" is completely ridiculous. He was warned, short-blocked and long-blocked, and indef-blocked, and there is no change at all in his behaviour. Having other editors check my changes if they are pro-Morocco POV is more than welcome. Actually my action (and Wikima's) has almost always been a reaction to Koavf's POV editing, rather than the opposite contarely to what Reisio alledges above.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't defend people's positions, I merely adhere to logic and Wikipedia guidelines & policy. ¦

Reisio

18:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I see what "logic" you mean: the logic of reverting that you share with Koavf. Your contributions are no more than reverts. Your talk page is full of complaints about that. Playing the third-party editor who throws his two-cents on this does not fit you Reisio, because you were very much in the middle of it.--A Jalil 14:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Explaining my relationship to this matter was the first information I presented here. ¦

Reisio

18:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Reisio, in my edits i am rather neutral and defend neutral pages (e.g. separtion of WS from "sadr")
• You think, like koavf, being neutral means pushing Polisario's interests in wikipedia (and possibly elsewhere)
• An possibly you think this way because you are payed by Polisario or the Algerian Governement.

wikima 19:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow "Actually my action (and Wikima's) has almost always been a reaction to Koavf's POV editing" this is an explicit admission that Wikima and Jalil exist on Wikipedia in order to revert my edits. That is what they do and that's it. They only want to instigate edit wars on Western Sahara-related articles. As for Wikima's paranoid allegation about spies from Algeria, is anyone taking him seriously at this point? Honestly, is anyone else even reading these ramblings? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• If you read well, reisio is suggesting I am working for the Moroccan gov., an unacceptable allegation. I am merely showing him the mirror. But you were unable to see that. Why? Because unable to be neutral.
• I my view it is extremly important in wikipedia to get articles on Western Sahara as balanced as possible.
• Polisario activitsts like you and Arre have created a whole pro-polisario world that needs to be balanced. You excessive edit warring and pro-polisarian editing does not allow any constructive way.
• This is what I mean that there is almost no conflict when you are away (e.g blocked).

wikima 20:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Spying No, he didn't. And when I didn't edit the Western Sahara articles, virtually no one did. There was certainly no one who edited them with any regularity, and you definitely didn't take the initiative to add more content. Your main project on Wikipedia is deleting information and reverting me. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

NO I exist on Wikipedia to, among other things, remove POV edits (by you or Arre or else) to a subject I know very well. I don't touch your other edits if they are not POV. Needless to say, I have nothing to do with the troubles you had om R.E.M template nor on massive renaming or moving chaos you did elsewhere. --A Jalil 10:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh So you exist on Wikipedia in order to revert some of my edits, not all of them. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

• 1/ I didn't speak of spying
• 2/ Reisio accused me fo working for the Moroccan gov., an allegation that did not bother you at all. But now that I am holding the mirror for him you seem excitd about this. This reflects how profoundly biased is your thinking.
• 3/ We did lots of imporovements to the articles and created new ones when you were away (e.g. corcas, former members of polisario etc.)
• 4/ Since you're back from your indefinite block your only acitivity is to undo the efforts of others with the aim to get the initial pro-polisario versions
• 5/ Your behaviour keeps people busy dealing with you only instead of dealing with the topics. If we didn't have you here we would spend our time dealing with the articles themselves
• 6/ If I were only a Moroccan POV fighter I would have inserted versions in your absence which go 100% along the Moroccan position. None of us did when you were away.

wikima 18:25, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous

• Okay, but you think he's a non-spy government employees of some kind? Whatever.
• When?
• You created those before I left.
• That's not true; you're lying.
• That's also not true; see the months when I was away. Anyone can look at your contribs and see how you were not interested in making the articles any better.
• How did you not do that? It certainly seems like you did. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been clear to me for a while now that all three editors should be under the same parole. It seems that every block that Koavf has had has been a result of reciprocal edit warring, often in tandem, by A Jalil and Wikima. It's been going on across dozens of articles for months now.

t

00:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Koavf has been on the 1RR parole and what is the result?, to revert every other day, or a couple of days?. I have taken this problem to your attention before. The admin who was intervening is on a wiki-break (car accident). What is needed is that an admin to step in and go through all the articles in conflict. The best example is that lately an admin has managed to settle a very disputed article, though not without problems with koavf. That is a good example to follow.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Parole I would be fine with some kind of oversight (in point of fact, that is precisely what I have asked for on several occasions here at AN/I); would someone please step up to do that? Some kind of intervention or mediation on these pages? Again, I would like to point out that a strict equivalence between every edit they have made and I have made is false balance; I have made nowhere near as egregious edits as they have. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 01:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Judging by your behaviour under 1RR parole, I wonder if parole has any impact on edit-warring.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The main issue here is the fact that the pro-Polisario activist Koavf (in addition to Arre), has loaded Wikipedia with pro-Polisario content to a great number of articles. Western Sahara has more space on Wikipedia than the vast majority of African nations. We (I, wikima, Juiced Lemon, and Collounsbury, ..) have been removing that POV content from different articles only to find he reverted back to his edit. He actually started the revert process immediately after being unblocked. The articles being the subject of trouble all have one of the following points:

• Koavf is using Western Sahara, the disputed territory, and the SADR, the govt-in-exile of the the Polisario Front, interchangeably and using the flag of the SADR to represent WS. That is the reason of trouble in these articles: WikiProject Western Sahara, Gallery of flags with crescents, Flags of Africa, and Pan-Arab colors.
• Western Sahara has no flag nor coats of arms, but Koavf insists on it having them, and imposing or redirecting to the Polisario/SADR flag and coa on WS. We suggested that the article of flag of Western Sahara makes mention that there is no such for the disputed territory, but there are two competing flags claiming to represent the territory and have them listed. He refused. An admin intervened to edit the article to a neutral approach and is actually what we suggested.
• Magnifying sporadic riots that happen once in a half year by a few stone throwing teanagers as an "ongoing campaign". Sahrawi Association of Victims of Grave Human Rights Violations Committed by the Moroccan State, (what a title!!).
• Making the SADR, a government in exile of the Polisario Front, look as a sovereign state and Africa topic.
• Reverting some articles to nearly a two year old version, loaded with Pro-Polisario POV, in disregard of many editors contribution. Portal:Western Sahara/Intro.
• In addition to portraying WS as occupied instead of disputed, and calling the area to the east of the military berm as a free zone, a term used exclusively by the SADR organs. Needless to say that it goes well with what Koavf openly states in his user page that he is on Wikipedia to represent the interests of the SADR.

An admin, Zscout370, with better knowledge about flags has solved a couple of articles' troubles. What we need is another dedicated admin to tackle the other subjects. I am quite confident that an admin's intervention, looking from a neutral perspective, will solve most of these problems.

Unfortunately, after nearly half a year of block, the behaviour of Koavf is the same. The same pro-Polisario POV pushing, and the same disruptive behaviour. The WS related disruption by koavf is visible only because there are people to oppose it. What about the week-long block related to disruptive page moving?, shortened only due to the admin's kindness?, in addition to more complaints. For those who think Koavf only has trouble on WS related pages.--A Jalil 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Trolling More trolling about. The only thing that makes any sense in the post you just made is the injunction that a disinterested editor can see through this obfuscation. Your arguments are paltry at best, and your actions speak volumes - you and Wikima exist solely on Wikipedia to revert my edits to Western Sahara articles. Anyone who looks at your edits can see that literally 99% of them are reverts to push a Moroccan nationalist agenda. In the six months that I did not edit, can you point to one constructive addition that was made to these articles? One? The entire WikiProject laid fallow and my immediate concern on resumption of editing was getting started editing Western Sahara-related articles again and contributing to their breadth and scope. Silly statements about how Western Sahara is not occupied, there is no flag of Western Sahara, and how there is no Independence Intifada show how disconnected your ideology is with reality; the fact that you refuse to have any kind of coherent posts on talk reinforces this. In point of fact, your first allegation against me - which you and Wikima have repeated ad nauseum - is patently untrue. Never have I ever equated Western Sahara with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic or either with the Polisario Front. Ever. It also shows how you are more interested in trolling about your Moroccan nationalism on every page rather than discussing the merits of your actions - do you have any response to the allegations made above or do you only have these illogical arguments in favor of your POV? Again, will some admin please take accountability for this series of disputes? As much as I appreciate Fayssal's gestures, he's been ineffectual at stemming the tide of nonsense and is apparently incapacitated. I have posted at AN/I and RfCs several times and have sought mediation over and over again. Would someone please help me here? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to not have read my edit (as usual), because I have put links to just a few from the many articles where you use the SADR flag and SADR coat of arms, and you use, SADR symbols to represent Western Sahara. In many occurences of Western Sahara youd add SADR in brackets -- Western Sahara(SADR)-- If that is not confusing the SADR with Western Sahara, then what is it?. At the same time you came here on the AN/I to claim without shame that "Never have I ever equated Western Sahara with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic or either with the Polisario Front. Ever.", 10 minutes later you created an article titled

History of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and ... directed it to the History of Western Sahara. Is that lying or Schizophrenia?. Against an admin's intervention, you insist on adding the SADR to the template of African sovereign states, and at the same time calling it occupied. are not you putting yourself in a ridiculous situation?. The Moroccan POV, is that Western sahara is an undisputed integral part of the kingdom as the southern provinces, while I describe it as a disputed territory. Am I then pushing pro-Morocco POV?. After your unblock, on the 15th of June, you reverted many articles to the half year old versions you left, and in some cases to a nearly 2 years old version in dirsregard of the contributions of half a dozen editors. Is that what you call "resumption of editing", or is it resumption of reverting and edit-warring?. While Picaroon was putting this on AN/I you were reverting, and continued after that. My concern here on Wikipedia is to remove the POV that you have added with Arre. To change the situation where Wikipedia has become a repository for activism and POV pushing of the Polisario. If that is what you do, and in your own words, that is why you are for, then, of course I will remove your pro-Polisario POV, and I welcome anyone to remove Pro-Morocco POV also.--A Jalil

14:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous So I guess you're just going to ignore the allegations above. That gives a tacit agreement to them (silence is approval.) I have in fact used the phrase "Western Sahara (SADR)" just like editors have used the phrases "Taiwan (ROC)" and "Republic of China (Taiwan)." They don't equate the two, simply show that there is some relationship between them, not that they are identical. A perfect example: the history of the SADR is pretty intimately related with the history of Western Sahara, isn't it? I would prefer that there were two articles, rich in sources and facts. Since there are not, one should redirect to the other, shouldn't it? In no small part the confusion is do to colloquially associating one with the other. As far as the flags go, you keep on calling it the "flag of SADR" whereas the most common name of it is the "flag of Western Sahara" and you know this, and the consensus is to leave the article name there, and you know that, and several sources refer to the flag as such, and you know that. I'm not getting into these ridiculous semantic games with you. As far as the Africa in topic template goes, your preference is apparently to remove Western Sahara from Africa altogether. Isn't that a bit of an extreme POV, to remove a country from a continent entirely? Then again, you apparently see no problem with that. I agree that it is ridiculous that the SADR is a sovereign state and its claimed territory is mostly under military occupation, but I had nothing to do with that; talk to Hassan II of Morocco. You push the Moroccan POV by claiming that Western Sahara is not occupied, when in fact and the eyes of international observers it is. As you admit yourself, your concern on Wikipedia is (just?) to revert my edits. I, on the other hand, contribute to the well-being of the project at large. This is not to say that every edit I have made is justified, nor is it to say that I am always dispassionately and objectively correct, but it is to point out the false balance and fallacious parity between your edits and mine. For some reason, you pretend like you right from no POV and you present sources as if they have no POV as well. Which is nonsense. I write my biases on my user page for the purpose of full disclosure and in the interests of neutrality. Meanwhile, your stealth edits, obfuscation, and outright lies (e.g. about the UN never calling Western Sahara occupied, which you know for a fact is not the case) hide your pro-Moroccan agenda, which is increasingly obvious to anyone that has looked at your contributions. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

POV. I am removing your POV edits not your edits. Western Sahara is a disputed territory not a country. the SADR is a government-in-exile based in Algeria, not a sovereign state. The Republic of china is Taiwan and Taiwan is the Republic of china. It is not they are related, they are the same thing. I think that was a desperate comparision. If you write "Western Sahara(SADR)" and claim you don't mean they are the same, you are in trouble. At worst, that is insulting the intelligence of the readers, among them the admins. They look by themselves and judge. I will say no more. --A Jalil 10:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Right So you have no defense of your actions? What on earth does "I am removing your POV edits not your edits" even mean? The fact that you write completely ignorant statements like "The Republic of china is Taiwan and Taiwan is the Republic of china. It is not they are related, they are the same thing." shows a gargantuan lack of knowledge about what you're talking about; for instance, read the first three or four sentences of

Republic of China and Taiwan. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M

19:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

While I do admit I do not know much about the area, I am willing to work with all parties to resolve other issues. It was hard trying to get the flag issue right. Even some of the folks I work for, like Flags of the World, gives a confusing view about the flag. But, once everything was settled, the results were satisfying to me and some of the others. It would be best if I can get all editors involved in this dispute to tell me, on my talk page, to pledge to me to work with me. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Almost uninvolved editor tries to help

Obviously, I can't understand everything going on here, but I think I can detect who is attempting to bring scholarship to this article and who is not. There appears to be a book on the subject that is particularily valuable - and the scholarship of it is not at issue. In conditions like this, using the book must be far preferable to using web-sources, particularily those of parties that have multi-$billion financial interests and have been defying the UN. Removing references to the book (on simple factual matters, such as recognition of SADR by particular nations) looks very much like vandalism - meanwhile, other edits, such as Justin (koavf)'s edit here persuade me that there are editors capable of properly assessing sources, and their contributions are likely to produce a much better article.

Separate to the question of sources, some parties (perhaps only one individual) seem to be attempting to act cooperatively with the 'facilitator'/mediator, while other parties or individuals are refusing to cooperate and are 'personalising' the discussion in unhelpful ways. It looks increasingly to me as if this AN is an abuse of process, and

PR (a.k.a PalestineRemembered), If you don't understand what is going on here, you do better switch off your detecting radar, or turn it to the case rised against you above. Your edits to a whole range of articles look obviousely biased, as is your intervention "to help" here. You picked one article out of dozens, and did not even understand what is the issue there, and used your mis-understanding of it as a basis to call for my (and Wikima's) block. the diff of Koavf's edit your refer to implies that when the Emir of Kuwait was on a visit to Morocco last year, and asked by journalists about his country's position in the Sahara conflict, and he answered that he supported the territorial integrity of Morocco, that implies he might be talking about the Canary Islands, that Morocco has never claimed. If your mind approves of this laughingly nonsense, then I do now understand why you trail such a long block record and why you are under mentoring and the subject of many complaints.--A Jalil 10:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• PR if you have been following on the topic you would have realised that koavf has broken by all records of edit warring
• For this he has been blocked on indefinite
• And when he was away, for months (can't remember how long), the topic was in rest. There was peace.
• As soons as he came backl edit warring began again.
• Your judgement shows that your position is simply unfair and irrealistic.

wikima 19:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Trolling about "The topic was in rest." In other words, we did nothing to contribute to the articles, and we had nothing to do since we couldn't revert Justin's edits. Since he has come back, we have been reverting his edits. Is anyone else reading this stuff? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• No, that means that there was no edit warring when you were away.
• This is a fact that everyone can verify
• Edits continued and despite from some tension with Arre and Reisio there has never been an edit war like with yourself
• You are excessive in using wikipedia and in your edit war.
• Your blocks are incomparable. You have broken records.
• Any admins who wants to say anything here must first look at the block logs (PR obviousely did not)

wikima 20:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No edit warring Of course there was no edit warring - you had your way and you did nothing on those pages. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• This is indeed the sad thing about you
• When you were away there was no edit warring.
• Of course there was tension with other activits of polisario like Arre or Reisio, but in general we could move further and get more progress in the topics quality than in all the time you were around.
• This is unfortunately not the case with myself or Jalil only but I can remember Daryou, Fayssal himself and other editora whom you completely discouraged from editing with your excessive reverts. All that people gave up and left because of you.
• And I am not familiar with the other topics you are involved in but I think other people had complained about your behaviour in otehr areas as well.

wikima 18:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Supplementary Comment - I looked at parts of this case and I saw cooperative editors and non-cooperative editors. I saw editors who had proper sources to work from, and editors who sourced to parties who have big financial interests in the outcome. I saw one editor who appeared to be taking an analytical attitude, and others who seemed to be taking a personalised attitude. After all of this, I may not have dug deeply enough, and could be completely wrong in my assessment. But I know how it looks and my views have not changed in response to further contributions. I know what kind of editor I would choose to collaborate with in articles, and I know what kind of editor I'd like to see editing articles in the encyclopedia. Lastly, it's always interesting to speculate on the motives of an editor who immediately draws attention to the supposed ethnicity of another editor. PR^talk 13:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to resolve this, at least partly

• For those who have been following with the conflict, a main source for it is the confusion of Western Sahara with the "sahrawi republic"
• Koavf, pro-polsiario activist, is misusing wikipedia to make sure Western Sahara is exactly the same thing as the "sahrawi "republic"
• In fact it is not. Western Sahara is the disputed territory, while the "sahrawi republic" is the entity that claims the independence for this territory.
• If you (admins) really want to help resolving this then I suggest you look into this.
• I suggest that admins who have been involved in the topic get involved in this debate, otherwise it would not make sense

Thanks - wikima 20:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Look into this? Please do, admins. Please do. Just look at the diffs I've provided above and tell me if they are reasonable in any sense of the word. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the admins will look, and they will see that you were actually unblocked from the indef-block to have a second chance, and you are not supposed to engage anymore in edit-warring and disruptive behaviour, and not to be blocked 4 times within a short time from your unblock.--A Jalil 10:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah the dialogue des sourdes: As neither a partisan of Morocco nor Polisario, frankly the core issue is that neither wikima nor Koavf in particular are able to listen and compromise. It's rather hard to advance anything with the Western Sahara articles when both play pretend dialogue - Koavf being rather better at the special pleading and wiki-lawyering, indeed he seems to be making it his new approach -while insisting on their POV. Frankly the entire thing is tiresome. I would simply like then to note that in my experience trying to gain consensus, Koavf is as much a problem as this Moroccan tormentors, and to block them without also blocking him on editing the articles strikes me as unproductive. I await, then, Koavf's little "Wha! (collounsbury 00:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC))

Sure Just look at

Talk:Legal status of Western Sahara; see the rationales I provide versus what they say. Then tell me if there is parity between our dialogue. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M

19:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

• Ask these 2 people to agree and reach a prior and general consensus (whether WS is a region, a country, a local marketplace, etc...) before delving into editing;
• or else, ban those 2 editors from these articles and leave others reach consensus. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 20:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back Fayssal, I'm glad to see you back and I hope you're better. Again, look at the edits above and show me anything I've done that is as POV. Furthermore, look at the talk on Legal status of Western Sahara; which of us is providing cogent arguments based on reliable, verifiable, and scholarly sources? I am definitely willing to play ball, but I am not willing to have the WikiProject constantly vandalized, or its user templates as well. Nor do I think that the kinds of edits that I outlined above are reasonable behavior; not the least of which is the example of reverting out the references that you told me to put back into the article. Honestly, is that justified? Have I ever done anything as egregious as that in my edits? Seriously. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 01:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

• Col and Fayssal, you don't seem to be able to look at things with an objective eye.
• You compare me with koavf, although my block log is extremly low (to not to say insignificant) and koavf's is a candidate for the Guiness World Records.
• An other fact that you ommit, is that I am for balancing the WS topic and not to make it all Moroccan POV, while Koavf only represents the Polisario/Algeria POV on the topic.
• To help you understand this, I never spoke of the Sahara as Moroccan, but always insist to dissociate this territory from an entity that claims its independance.
• The same is valid when I don't recognize the "sadr" entity as this is the most neutral position in international relations. Because taliking of the "sadr" as en existing, sovereign entity (as koavf and co. do) means that there is no conflict and that WS belongs to the "sadr". IS this right? No, it is NOT.
• You should open your mind a little and try to understand this because the other way would be to simply agree with koavf and build an online independent "Polisariostan" on wikipedia.
• You should use your mind a little bit more and not judge in such a simplicistic way.

Thanks - wikima 16:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Second Suggestion to resolve the issue

Folks,

• Here is a second suggestion from my side, in the sake of Wikipedia. It adresses the roots of the conflicts. In my view if you don't deal with this the conflict will never end, as it never ends at the UN.
• Also, the following is a package, take it as whole or leave it as whole:

1/ Content Level

• Make a clear statement among all active users involved in the WS topic that WS should NEVER be put same as the Sahrawi Republic
• Allow for action / Encourage action to dissociate both from each other at all levels (also file naming) and present Western Sahara as what it is: the disputed territory and not the wished republic.

2/ User Level

• Ban Koavf from all Western Sahara and Morocco related topics. Koavf has had many chances and he sinply ignored them. No need I think to go into details here.
• Block myself (wikima) for three months from editing in Wikipedia (and later for more if I am not able to show any change). Honnestly my personal block log is simply too little even for a three months block, but if this helps to resolve anything then ok.

Hope this helps and thanks - wikima 16:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Following the closing of

From my perspective it's easy. If the articles fail the rules in a way that can't be corrected via a rewrite or amendment then it's AfD. There's a difference between not biting a newbie and sitting them down, making them a cup of tea and a cookie. If nothing else it's a lesson to them about what does and doesn't make it into WP. At the moment the editor is learning nothing in that regard. ---- WebHamster 21:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Without looking too much at the articles and judging mainly on what is here,

WP:BITE does not override other policies, if the articles are completely unsalvageable, there is only 1 solution. WP:BITE means that you shouldn't go to the editor's talk page, throw a bunch of policy abbreviations at them, and threaten to have them blocked if they continue. Mr.Z-man

21:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest AfD them, but leave a polite note on their talk page to explain why you're doing it (along the lines of "thanks for your contributions, sorry but I don't feel they quite fit in with WP policy"), and maybe try to steer them towards some places they can make contributions that are more likely to stick. Confusing Manifestation 01:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If the Imette St. Guillen, Jennifer Moore, Ramona Moore and Chanel Petro-Nixon pages are deleted then I would, indeed, consider leaving Wikipedia as an editor. I put considerable research and work into these pages as, I know the materials that I am referring to. I'm not without my own, considerable skills as, I work as a legal secretary for a well-known law firm and, other than Wikipedia style and policy, I'm pretty knowledgeable about some law matters.

While I didn't create the

In response to User:WebHamster comment: "If nothing else it's a lesson to them about what does and doesn't make it into WP. At the moment the editor is learning nothing in that regard." well my response that that statement is, what 'kind' of lesson are you trying to teach? That 'the work ethic is false'? That would be the lesson that I would learn if all of my work were destroyed on Wikipedia, so I would see no further reason to contribute to anything here. There comes a point where 'enough is enough' and I've learned to cut people off in that regard. That's a lesson that I give to you, from life as I've lived it, and the various experiences that I have lived. Have any of you worked at the World Trade Center in 2001? I have. Have any of you been a victim of a corrupt legal system? I have. This and many other things I have 'brought to the table' so understand that, in this respect, I will at least try to fight for my input and for what I believe in, but again, if my pages are deleted, then I'm done with Wikipedia. Are you going to be 'robots' to rules or clear thinkers? The decision rests with all of you.--MurderWatcher1 17:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

In general I consider the subjects of these articles notable, but the nature of the articles deplorable. The detailed recounting of crimes does not belong in WP, and, alas, I think it is fair to say that the ed. has made it clear in various ways that he writes in that fashion deliberately. I think the consensus that the deleted article was is not notable may have been affected by the article content to the extent that even the competent re-writing by another ed did not help. I did not !vote at the AfD--because of my conflict over these two factors. The analogy with BH is correct--an excellent writer whose style is not that of an encyclopedia, and seems determined to keep that style. I supported deletion of many of BH's articles--I doubt anyone would have even nominated them if the length had been proportional to the importance. I'd think the same here. I suggest a moratorium on further deletions of these articles in the hope that we can reconsider what makes a murder in a large city notable--and--even more important, try to find a way to have community binding decisions on content as we do on notability. We have only one tool, and all we can do is delete, or ask for improvements under the threat to delete. Iridiescent suggested I comment here as a representative inclusionist, but my intent at WP is not primarily inclusion, but upgrading of content--if we wrote more appropriately we could have a wider range of content without looking foolish. It is not the presence of articles on minor subjects that attracts unfavorable attention, but their length and elaboration. DGG (talk) 21:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Since I've been nominally involved with some of the things that this editor has edited and have interacted with him I thought I'd leave input, also I was notified of the AN/I. I don't think the user is a bad editor, unfortunately despite prodding on my part the articles that he writes continues to be POV. My efforts at this have been minimal, I don't have the time or the patience, so they might not have been effective as they could have been. I do believe his editing habits can be changed. I think the solution here would be to have somebody mentor the user; discuss whatever article he wants to create prior to creation, discuss whether it would be worthy of inclusion on wikipedia, guide his edits/tone, and whatnot. I do believe this has been done before, having a mentor, however whether it works or not is the question. I have told the editor that if he continues on as he has an independent wikia might be more to his style. As for the articles themselves I do believe that some of them have notability; Imette St. Guillen, Jennifer Levin and Fountain Avenue. However of the three I've listed the only article that he has had edits of any major proportions are St. Guillen, which I've totally rewritten and her notability, I believe, is established due to a NY law that was passed in her name and influenced because of her death. His edits on Levin are minimal (and actually have mostly been removed) and the Fountain Avenue can easily be formatted and cited; same with Levin (heck give me time and I can do both of them). The others I believe are questionable in their notability, unfortunately. I believe the articles for the time being could be moved over to the user's sandbox, and the original article AfD'ed. I mean articles can be recreated if notability is established. With the articles in the sandbox and a proper mentor the articles could be gone over with a mentor to see if they do in fact meet the notability guidelines and gives the user a chance to fix the articles and not loose all of the work, and reinserted if they meet guidelines. I think his intentions are to honor the people who have died however the user does not realize that wikipedia does not necessarily view the same things as being notable that he does. I think if he is mentored about wikipedia then that can possibly become a better wikipedia editor. --

ImmortalGoddezz

22:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

MurderWatcher, you may want to keep in mind that you

do not own Wikipedia articles that you create. You should be prepared to have your contributions thoroughly edited or even deleted. If you simply cannot tolerate that, then you are correct in coming to the conclusion that Wikipedia may not be for you (although you seem to be putting the blame in the wrong place). --Cheeser1

23:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

When she had started editing the

Imette St. Guillen reference months ago, I decided to exercise patience and to simply watch and learn from what she did. I didn't get upset with her or anything like that. Cheeser1

, you've come to the wrong conclusion about my work if you believe your own comments above.

Also, to respond to the comment of DGG given above "... nature of the articles deplorable. The detailed recounting of crimes does not belong in WP ..." well my response to that is "what about the Holocaust?" That was 'deplorable', nevertheless the Holocaust happened; it was and is covered in detail in a number of books and television specials. There is currently a series of television documentaries on New York's WPBS Channel 13 on World War II, and at least one of these showed the conditions of the prisoners in the death camps. These are facts of life.

Perhaps I am being "too wordy" here but I stand by my initial comments above. Again, the decision rests with all of you.User:MurderWatcher1 COMMENT: Can't put my signature here for some reason.

Pre-disclosure: Me and

I still agree with myself.

To deal with MurderWatcher1's points (which I am grossly simplifying):

• If the... pages are deleted then I would, indeed, consider leaving Wikipedia as an editor. Yeah, and I don't blame you. But you'd be making a mistake, Wikipedia would be poorer for not having you here, and the articles would have to go regardless. I think you got a
  WP:OWN
  thrown at you before, and I think that "threat" (for want of a better word) is why.

• I have no feedback on how my edits were received. Yeah, tell me about it. Wikipedia lacks the positive version of {{uw-test1}}. I'm just as guilty - in my first days here, I'd have climbed over my grandmother (not a good example, she's a cow) for some positive feedback. But with our level of vandalism etc, lack of feedback is good feedback. Ugh. Horrible, but real.

• Your Wikipedia Project does not provide "software counters" for the pages. I would assume that only an Administrator would know those numbers. Nah. Not available to anyone. The only clue is the amount of editing/vandalism. And not even then. Your articles could have been read by 100m people or 10 people. But the figures would tell us nothing. I could put up an article with a description of how I fellate goats on Wednesdays, digg/slashdot it, and get millions of visitors. Would it be encyclopedic? Nah.

• Are you going to be 'robots' to rules or clear thinkers? Wikipedia editors are going to try to protect Wikipedia. What else can we do?

• Wikipedia doesn't really have any 'mentoring' program in place Per my second point, I agree. However, Wikipedia:Editor review and so forth exists. We don't have a pro-active system for this, asking our editors to find people or places willing to comment. This leaves editors to contribute for ages and then get slammed. A flaw in the pedia's design. But not one aimed at you or anyone else.

• Anyone 'coming onboard' in Wikipedia, by your reasoning, has to read the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Oh, but I'd love to delete article for being poorly laid out and thought through - I think poor articles are far, far worse than no article at all. But Wikipedia's rules don't allow for people to delete them (despite poor articles discouraging new editors, go figure). They allow for a poorly formatted article to be sent to
  WP:AfD
  , but even a well-formatted article can be sent to AfD. And deleted.

• I don't see these people [vandals] getting this much criticism as I am here We don't value them at all. We just vaporise them quickly. People we value get talked to, threads made, their articles discussed for second, third, forth opinions before we even start to ask about deletion. That's what we do for people we value. You're not a vandal. People are agonising here because your articles don't appear to fit our policies. It isn't you, it isn't vandalism, it's just Wikipedia stuff.

• what about the Holocaust? Yeah, close to
  Godwin's Law
  , but I see what you mean. Our articles go into detail about the Holocaust because the event was practically without precedent and the ultimate results of such a barbaric act are still to be experienced daily throughout the world. The murder of a single person in a single city in a single country really doesn't match in any way you can come up with. An arch-inclusionist like DGG will try to find notability and encyclopedianess in any article. But even DGG is having problems with the content here. This is no reflection on you, just a problem with the nature of the articles in question [for DGG - once the gory details are removed, the articles become just a set of "X was murdered by Y for Z reason claimed by the tabloids" mini-articles. Murder, in the US, is commonplace, indeed normal; we may as well have articles about individual paving slabs].

• the decision rests with all of you It does. It was brought here to see what people think before the sheer demoralising hell of AfD was inflicted on these articles and you as author. So far, we've not had reasons to keep from you or anyone else, just reasons to make an exception to, or change, Wikipedia's rules.

Above all, I was terrified of putting you in an awful position with these articles when discussing them last night. But the bullet must be bitten - as I should have said to iridescent, these articles must go to AfD; there will be hell to pay, but there's no alternative. ➔ REDVEЯS was here 21:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: I'm crossposting this from my conversation with Redvers, as I think it's more appropriate here where other participants in the discussion will see it. As anyone who's been watching me will notice, I've flip-flopped 180^o on this, but Redvers's arguments above have persuaded me.

I deliberately invited

Imette St. Guillen

, and I think I'll leave that out of any AfD run. I started this whole sorry episode, so I suppose I ought to be the one to finish it; I think I'll wait until the thread is archived from AN/I, to let as many people as possible comment, although I think we can all see where it's headed. I'll nominate them separately, and reasonably spaced apart, to avoid them becoming a de facto delete all/keep all bulk nomination.

The quote on MW1's userpage "In a sense, Imette St. Guillen's Wikipedia reference is something like her gravesite - sacred - more representative of who and what she was than a physical gravestone - and it should be respected", I think sums up the problem perfectly. MW1 doesn't just see WP as a memorial, but as a shrine, and is starting to see us as desecrating the shrine. It's ironic, given the lengths everyone is going to not to drive him off (if these had been by, say,

iridescent (talk to me!)

22:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on this discussion and since I have a free moment, I am willing to offer my thoughts; considering that we are not a paper encyclopedia and that we want to make it so that "every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge," I think these articles are valid and do not weaken our project any. They are well-organized and contain numerous references/external links that attest to their notability and verifiability. I therefore support Murderwatcher's creation of the articles and their continued inclusion on Wikipedia. I hope that helps. Sincerely, --

Tally-ho!

00:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)