Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive447

Unblocked by Quadell; now turning into a WR-related philosophical debate. Discuss Viridae's WR comments on his talk page. Discuss MONGO's Viridae comments on his talk page. —Giggy 11:19, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Users unblocked by Quadell. Beam 05:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• Para (talk · contribs)
• Crum375 (talk · contribs)
• Brown Dog affair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Para has been edit warring over the inclusion of links in that article for several days. His block is 48 hours. Crum has been edit warring over the same link (in opposition to Para and several others) for close to a month. His block is one week, due to the length of time he has been edit warring over the same link, while referring to the talk page where consensus has not been reached either way. Several other people have been involved in that edit war, on either side, but not as recently as these two, and not for the length of time that Crum has. Both users have previous blocks for edit warring. I originally protected the page, but removing other peoples ability to constructively edit the page is overkill when there are currently two main protagonists. Any further edit warring by anyone else over this issue should also result in a block. If either of these users agreed to stop the edit warring and conduct the argument solely on the talk page, I would of course support an unblock. Viridae^Talk 01:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you show me where a report was filed regarding Crum375 edit warring, such as 3RR or similar that would lead you to block him? In fact, your block has come a good deal after he last edited that article and I see no 3RR violation...are you familiar with 3RR? 3 reverts in 24 hours...why not just protect the page...and where was the page protection request? Considering your long standing dispute with Crum375 shouldn't this have been a block performed by a neutral party? Why not post the evidence here about the edit warring you claim and have someone else do the blocks/protection, whatever?--MONGO 01:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

1. No long standing dispute with Crumm375 exists. 2. I didnt block for 3RR. 3. A report doesn't need to be filed for a block to be made. 4. I already covered why blocks are a better idea in this case. Viridae^Talk 01:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of folks that are reported for trolling and disruption to AIV etc....so how come you don't do much blocking of them? If you expect me to believe based on your comments here and offsite that you don't have an axe to grind with Crum375 as well as SlimVirgin, then that would be news.--MONGO 01:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

MONGO I may as weel ask why you don't write more articles on Economics... Viridae^Talk 01:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That answers my query then..you blocked Crum375 since you do have interest in him and his situation.--MONGO 01:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Come on, MONGO, that's a plainly ludicrous line of thinking an unsubstantiated line of argumentation. If you have evidence that Viridae wikistalks Crum or otherwise displays inordinate interest Crum's activities, provide it. Until you do, though, I'm chalking the blocker-blockee combination here as being up to the vagaries of chance.

talk

) 01:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Viridae's logs, [16]...I don't see a lot of admin actions overall...aside from a flurry fo schoolblocks imposed on some IP's in June...no evidence this guy actively follows AIV or other noticeboards looking to help out with blocking trolls and vandals. In fact..looking at Crum375's edits, I see that he made three edits to the article in question over a period of three days, two more a couple days before that and only two more since mid June.[17] Crum375 has also been active on the talkpage of that article as well...so it's not like Crum375 was just doing blind reverts without discussion. I see no rational for any block based on the reasons Viridae has given...edit warring need not be immediate of course, but this is definitely a low level edit war if I ever saw one. Furthermore, Crum hadn't edited the page in over 10 hours! So...explain why the urgency with a week long block.--MONGO 02:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, there are often only two main protagonists in cases in which full protection is granted. I think it probably would have been better to stick with your first instinct here. I also think that given that both parties were well away from 3RR, a warning would have been good before the blocks. Finally, one week seems very long for Crum, though hopefully this will be resolved with an agreement to stop edit-warring.

talk

) 01:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a week because he has been edit warring over the same material for close to a month. Both have been blocked for edit warring before. Viridae^Talk 01:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, low-speed edit wars can sneak up on even experienced users. I still think a warning would have been good, and I still think page protection may have been preferable.

talk

) 01:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Believe me, I weighed up all possibilities, but here is no way either of them missed that they were edit warring - in paticular crum reverting that many times while using edit summaries that were variations of "per talk" would be really hard to miss. Viridae^Talk 01:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, I first mistook this for another April Fools Day joke. — CharlotteWebb 01:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• (e/c) I have to agree with Mongo here; Viridae should not have blocked Crum375. I am not actively following the C68/SV/JzG arbitration, and have no editorial interaction with the editors involved in the case, but even I recognize that Viridae and Crum375 have a long-standing disagreement, and that alone should have been grounds for Viridae to punt to another admin, one who is not involved in the case or with either of the editors involved in the dispute. As to the blocks themselves, I do not disagree with them, although I disagree with the asymmetric nature of the block lengths. Horologium (talk) 01:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
  • What long standing disagreement? I am only involved in that case because arbcom was silly enough to merge the FM/SV case with the unrelated JzG case. Viridae^Talk 01:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
• I have to agree with MONGO as well. I'm not comfortable with this block and I'm not comfortable with Viridae being the one the implement it. You may feel you have no dispute with Crum but there is a perception that you do and perception matters as much as the actuality. I also agree with Sarcasticidealist's comments about protection, warnings etc. Please consider unblocking.Sarah 01:36, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry but the long standing disagreement card is something MONGO plays every time I do something he doesn't like. Repeateing it endlessly doesn't make it true. Viridae^Talk 01:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Well, I think in this case he is right but aside from that I think it's a bad block and I think page protection and a reminder to the users about edit warring would have been a more effective and a less drama-full way of dealing with it. Sarah 01:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If Viridae had some beef with Crum, he would have just blocked Crum, not both users. Also, don't play the "he has a beef with the participants" card and look at the block besides any given disagreement he has with any of the parties if such disagreement exists.

I agree with Kwsn. As far as I can tell (though I remain open to being convinced otherwise), the argument that Viridae was biased here boils down to

• he posts on WR
• WR contains attempts at violating SlimVirgin's privacy
• SlimVirgin is often identified as being close to Crum
• he has poor relations with JzG, who is also the target of some amount of scorn on WR

Frankly, that combination of facts does not a conflict-of-interest make. I'm no great fan of the block, but I am a great fan of

talk

) 01:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Good grief, was any attempt made to resolve the issue short of blocking? And a week-long block of an admin for a slow edit war? There's no preventative reason to issue a block here and no need for a drama-causing block without going to ANI or getting a second opinion first. And for the record, I post at Wikipedia Review, which has nothing to do with anything here. --B (talk) 01:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Common sense and

Crum has made far more and has been engaged in the edit war for far longer. Other users (SEWilco, SlimVirgin , Sfan00 IMG, Yamakiri ) have made at least one revert None of those have been active in that edit war in the past 4-5 days. Viridae^Talk 01:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually SEWilco and SlimVirgin both reverted 4 days ago. Viridae^Talk 01:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Were there any warnings given? Beam 01:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• (ec x???) Folks, look at the history of the page. Remember that 3RR is not an entitlement, it is an electric fence, and edit warring is sanctionable even without 3RR being reached. Additionally, the edit war is over the most utterly trivial of things - what extrenal links to use for geolocating the thing-a-ma-bob. This does feel like a bad April Fools joke, particularly that these editors would have been doing this; they should know better. But the edit history shows that the conflict is real. This has been nothing but edit warring for a month, something needs to be done. (This is a matter on which we have a style guideline...) Frankly, if someone really thinks the block is appropriate but that Viridae isn't the one to have made it (a position I don't adopt) they should go unblock "to put an uninvolved admin's name on the block" and reblock for the same duration. That is an excellent way of solving the problem if that is the real concern. If that isn't the issue, lets stop talking about it and get to the real issue.
  GRBerry
  01:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree that something should have been done. I just think that "something" should have taken the form of warnings/gentle reminders to the users, followed by a period of protection. I don't think the block was the right instrument here.

talk

) 01:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Drop a warning, and educate the users in edit warring. And if/when they continued than block them. I also don't like this block if there is even a perception of an involved admin doing the blocking. Beam 01:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

1. Despite MONGO's claims I am not involved as already demonstrated. Really By MONGOs criteria the whole admin corps is involved with every semi active user. As to education - both have been blocked for edit warring before, and both quite clearly knew what they were doing. Viridae^Talk 02:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Deliberately re-attributing of the block, without changing the duration or any other practical effect, could be considered process wonkery, or a meaningless gesture, or more generally, block-log pollution. — CharlotteWebb 02:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I point out that blocks don't have to last the prescribed time. If either fo them pledges to stop the silliness then they should be unblocked. If they refuse to stop the silliness, having the block in place is the best course of action anyway. Viridae^Talk 01:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why I said above that hopefully this will be quickly resolved with agreements to stop edit-warring. I just think it's preferable to give them the opportunity to agree to that before blocking them.

talk

) 01:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree wth Grberry, except for hte part re: block and reblock. It seems like a sill way to fix the problem. If Viridae has a conflict of interest but his block wias valid, whats the point of unblocking and then reblocking? The blocked editor remains blocked and Smith Jones (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC) also, i think that warnings should come before blocking, alhtough I can see why a block would be acceptable int his zenario since these users are clearly tendentious. Smith Jones (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In an effort to move on from this, would anyone have any objection to asking both blocked editors to agree (1) to stop reverting and (2) talk it out on the talk page, possibly using dispute resolution, and, upon their agreement to the same, unblock them (essentially, formalizing Viridae's proposal)? --B (talk) 02:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be best I think.--MONGO 02:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as they're aware that A) Any new editwarring by anyone will be harshly dealt with, and B) They're aware this quite possibly should go on WP:LAME as a featured edit war, that unblocking would be best, after getting their agreement. SirFozzie (talk) 02:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

As already stated. No I have no objection. Viridae^Talk 02:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I have left a message to that effect linking to this thread on the talk pages of both users. --B (talk) 02:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Review editors should be careful about blocking anyone that has been a target at that website. Especially if they themselves have participated in this targetting...just saying.--MONGO 02:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of Crum375 being targeted by anything other than the infamous April Fools Day thread, though I could be wrong. — CharlotteWebb 02:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

And Wikipedia editors should be careful about ascribing ill motives to anyone who posts at this website. Especially if they themselves have participated in this ascribing ill motives where there are none. Also Just saying. SirFozzie (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem...if I decicde to call you a "wolf" least I'll have the courage to do it here rather than offsite as you did to me recently...where nothing of course will happen except you'll get further accolades from many a banned editor and other miscreants.--MONGO 02:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I love the word miscreants. Thought I'd throw that out there. Beam 02:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If the problem with the block is about Viridae doing it, rather than the block itself, then this discussion is pointless. Wizardman 02:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

break 1

Guys, can I suggest that instead of getting sucked into a tangent about Wikipedia Review, we focus 100% on the merits of this block. I think a WR tangent will be of no benefit to anyone and just result in a very long and very drama-fueled thread that achieves nothing but bad feelings all round. Just a thought. Sarah 02:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably best...then reposting from above...Looking at Viridae's logs, [18]...I don't see a lot of admin actions overall...aside from a flurry fo schoolblocks imposed on some IP's in June...no evidence this guy actively follows AIV or other noticeboards looking to help out with blocking trolls and vandals. In fact..looking at Crum375's edits, I see that he made three edits to the article in question over a period of three days, two more a couple days before that and only two three more since mid June.[19] Crum375 has also been active on the talkpage of that article as well...so it's not like Crum375 was just doing blind reverts without discussion. I see no rational for any block based on the reasons Viridae has given...edit warring need not be immediate of course, but this is definitely a low level edit war if I ever saw one. Furthermore, Crum hadn't edited the page in over 10 hours! So...explain why the urgency with a week long block? No forewarnings were issued...--MONGO 02:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, remember, Blocks are supposed to be punishment and revenge for past actions. Beam 02:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You should've just said that in the first place MONGO ;). That being said, I actually agree with you. Looking through the log of Brown Dog affair and the user's contribs, a week long block just doesn't make sense. a 24 hour one would've been questionable. I'll read up on Viridae's side, but it's hard to see him in the right. Right now I would support an unblock on both of them. Wizardman 02:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

PLease note the length of time Crum was involved in that edit war, against 4 different people, all the time citing a talk page consensus that didn't exist. He knew what he was doing. If he was going to stop on his own accord he would have done so weeks ago. Viridae^Talk 02:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The point is that they were discussing it on the talk page during this (slow-moving) edit war. If they weren't then that would be a different story, but they were. How can they reach a consensus on th talk page if they're blocked? Wizardman 02:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Para was discussing it, Crum hardly. Continuallt reverting and citing a talk page consensus that did not exist is not discussion. Viridae^Talk 03:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Viridae, will you revert your blocks now? Mediation, more discussion, dispute resolution, a warning, any of those would have been a better action to pursue. Your block was the wrong action. I'm asking that you revert it. Beam 03:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Both users have been given a suitable out of their blocks. Until there is assurances that ridiculous ewdit war won't continue I see no reason to remove the blocks. Viridae^Talk 03:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Scarcasm aside, blocks are to prevent an immediate damage being done to Wikipedia. The last edit was 10 hours ago. There are editors there who are aware of the consensus on the article. Having worked at Kosovo, I know the greatest thing about wp:consensus is that it's not up to one editor to revert it. I feel that can be extended that a block isn't necessary for a slow "edit war." If the user was reverting/editing against consensus rapidly, he would have came close to 3RR violation. He didn't. IMHO the block was unwarranted. Beam 03:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

And even if they have a "suitable out" that doesn't mean the block was right, it wasn't. Beam 03:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That is your opinion. It is not one I share - and I am hardly alone in this discussion. Viridae^Talk 03:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You first protected the article..then blocked Para and then Crum[20]...why not just stop at page protection?--MONGO 03:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Eyes, MONGO, use them please. Viridae^Talk 03:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I did...the protection was first...neither was editing at the time...so why THEN block them as well...why not just leave it protected?--MONGO 03:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

...that question has been answered. Once again, eyes MONGO, use them. Viridae^Talk 03:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) protection would've been useless anyway, seeing as how Crum's an admin but Para isn't. Wizardman 03:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I thin it's fair to assume that Crum wouldn't have bypassed protection to ensure their version of the pages persisted.

talk

) 03:19, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, back to the topic at hand. Viridae, you state that you're hardly alone in your opinion (inferring from your text), but reading this over again consensus seems to be against you rather clearly. Am I misreading? Wizardman 03:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Beam, pelase read

WP:ABF that the user:Mango has chosen to analyize Viridaes past contribs in an attempt to concoct an argumetn atht his user sbehaved editting negatively without evidence. At the very least, you could say that User:Virdiae should have left the block to sanother admin but there is nor eason th tink that this was another front ina content dispute. Smith Jones (talk

) 02:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm almost certain that Beam is being sarcastic. — CharlotteWebb 03:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay SJ, you've tied one on me. What word was "nivedintieyl" supposed to be? I think I agree with you and your OUIJA board, but I want to make sure. Dayewalker (talk) 03:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I see no problem with these blocks. They can promise to stop the edit warring at any time, and if they won't do so, then naturally they should remain blocked. I also agree that Crum's misbehavior seems more serious than Para's, warranting the longer block. Everyking (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Viridae (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) needs to stop following around users that he has disputes with looking for a reason to harass them. He has done this before. If he wants to help and fight edit wars and vandals, there are forums that track those problems and need the help. But trolling his opponents talk pages and articles looking for an excuse to use the tools is more problematic than problem solving. --DHeyward (talk) 03:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

For the uninitaited DHeyward believes that I protected United States intervention in Chile because I am looking for a reason to annoy him. Despite it being pointed out that there was an edit war taking place. When it was poineded out to him that I was not following him around, and had infact reversed a block given to him by WMC, he accused me of still following him around but wanting to wheel war with WMC more - in the process also following him around. Relevant discussion: [21] [22]. Viridae^Talk 03:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

For the ununitiated, I've disputed your admin actions before and you took it to my talk page. I have simply asked that you stop wathcing my talk page and stop following me around. You became interested when ad editor apparently thought 3 edits in two weeks was a 3RR violation and the warning attracted you like flies to ____. You protected Joe Scarborough when there wasn't an edit war and you protected United States intervention in Chile when it is clear that the only "edit warring" was an IP that had made a total of 3 edits to wikipedia, all just reverts of me. Instead of helping deal with harassment, you chose to protect the article after they made their last revert. All that I ask is that you stop watching my talk page and you stop involving yourself in articles and incidents in which you have no prior history and which involve me. It's a simple request and you must realize that your use of the tools in these situations will not resolve anything but, instead, will only lead to more drama and strife. I don't particular care if you are looking for a reason to annoy editors or whether it's purely random. Please just stop it. --DHeyward (talk) 06:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

IT is clier that this thread hs develoved into the generic Bash Viridae Section and it has been labelled as such. Smith Jones (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's a reason for that. Viridae's history of stalking JzG and undoing his admin actions appears to be the reason he is currently in front of the arbcomm. It's also pretty clear that the Wikipedia Review crowd consider Crum and extension of Slim Virgin (you just need to read the arbcomm Workshop page). So basically Viridae, while in front of the arbcomm for just this sort of behaviour, is engaging in blocks against someone solidly on "the other side" of that arbcomm case. He is clearly an involved editor here and under no circumstances should he be issuing a block here. It's all the worse that it smells like a bad block. Guettarda (talk) 04:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Your behaviour in that affair is of course lilly white Guettarda... Viridae^Talk 04:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know any of the parties involved, and I have no interest in the old resentments apparently on display, but I have to say that a week-long block for one party seems really disproportionate. Crum375 has been involved in the article for longer, yes, (helping to make it featured in the process), and there's no doubt that a slow and unhelpful edit war has been taking place. But a week-long block, compared to a 48 hour block, seem pretty effective in the punitive department while ineffective in the preventative department. I have shortened Crum375's block to 48 hours. (If the edit-warring continues, further action may of course be warranted.) – Quadell ^(talk) 04:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Look, I don't carry any water for Crum375, Viridae, etc and I'm not particularly interested in an archaelogical expedition to sort out what on- and off-site grudges might or might not be at work. These look like two otherwise sensible good-faith contributors (Crum375 and Para) who got caught up in what is undeniably an incredibly lame dispute. Blocking for a slow edit war is certainly allowable, but with two generally decent users involved, a simple, shaming reminder to stop would probably have been useful as a first step, before week-long blocks. What's done is done; if Crum375 and Para are as reasonable as I think, they're not going to re-start edit-warring over this, so why not just unblock them both, word to the wise to let it go on both sides, and move on? If you do that and it starts up again, I think people might be more generally supportive of the blocks here. MastCell ^Talk 04:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think that would be a better idea. – Quadell ^(talk) 04:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Virade, thank you for bringing this to ani. I wouldn't have blocked. I'd have left the page protection on. But, as you noted in your opening remark, if these editors agree to stop edit warring they will be unblocked immediately. Sounds pretty straight forward. --Duk 04:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with MastCell. Let's unblock them and let it go. If there are no objections I move to unblock and warn. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

No I do object. Para had just come off a 24 hour block from the same article, following a warning given by none other than Crum. They both definitely knew what they were doing - until I see a definite answer from them agreeing not to continue the edit war, I will not be happy with either being unblocked. Viridae^Talk 04:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems petty. It now appears you did have a personal issue with one if not both, from your attitude. I'm not saying it's true, but your unwillingness to see the consensus here at this ANi section.... well that's odd. Beam 04:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Also agree with unblocking both users. A block is too much for this kind of low grade editing back and forth. . .long as there is talk page discussion. R. Baley (talk) 04:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again Para has just come off a 3RR block from the same article! The 3RR was reported by Crum! Crum cannot help but know he was edit warring and instead o fstopping he reported his "foe" for breaking 3RR. THere is no indication whatsoever that either will stop - crum edit warred over that same link for a month against 4 different users and used 3RR as a weapon against Para and Para just came off that block and went back to edit warring. Viridae^Talk 04:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe they get it now, I don't know. But I do know that this is a lame edit war. Most people reading the article (who don't edit, and probably even most editors) wouldn't even notice the change in content. I also know (because of my watchlisted pages that I saw this a while back and didn't think it worth the bother, but maybe that's me. Personally I wouldn't block anyone in this type of situation unless they did cross the

bright red line. R. Baley (talk

) 04:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

No blocks were warranted. No immediate threat to Wikipedia was present, and that's the bottom line. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Or at least they shouldn't be. Dispute resolution, some form of mediation, more discussion, simply reverting the edits, more and detailed warnings, any of that would have been better. And Vir is right that this is only my opinion, but the opinion is based on the facts of the situation, and policy. Beam 04:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

My .02: People make mistakes in judgement. Since Viridae posted this message on the ANI board obviously requesting that other people review it I do not see why there is so much "hatin". Sure the block may have been too long. But that's what the community is for: to help others make the right decisions and choices. Can't we all just come together to give a final recommendation and review of Viridae's actions and be done with it? Viridae will learn something, we'll learn something, everyone will be happy. At least I would be. --mboverload@ 04:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. Viridae came here in good faith looking for feedback, and he got it: next time, warn first. Live and learn. – Quadell ^(talk) 04:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well the feedback and consensus, from reading the thread, is that the blocks weren't warranted and he should revert them. But I'm starting to think he didn't want feedback, he wanted a pat on the back. Beam 04:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Remember, please: AGF, or rather WYCAGFALKITY. (When You Can't Assume Good Faith, At Least Keep It To Yourself.) – Quadell ^(talk) 04:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm removing both blocks. And I'm going to feel rather dumb if the lame edit wars continue unabated. – Quadell ^(talk) 04:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If it doesAs of now you, the unblocking admin, should suggest mediation/dispute resolution, instead of blocking. Beam 05:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well ... no, if it resumes THEN blocking would be appropriate. The whole problem here is that neither user was asked to stop before blocking them. There was no emergency need to block and no reason that Viridae (or anyone else) couldn't have just left a message on their talk pages reminding them that just because an edit war is slow doesn't make it ok. Now that they have such a warning, if they continue to edit war, a block would be appropriate. I seriously doubt it's going to come to that, though. --B (talk) 05:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it's almost 2am, I misspoke. Those things should be suggested now, and i've struck my statement accordingly. Good night! Beam 05:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

MONGO

As this thread deomnstrates MONGO continually criticises my actions on the basis of 1. my being a member of WR and 2. on imaginary long term disputes he thinks I have. He has also made repeated threats amounting to "someone should desysop you". Despite repeatedly being asked for evidence of the long term disputes, he continually fails to provide it. Despite being continually pointed to DR with regard to the the "desysop" threats he also failed to follow through on that (until the recent Jzg/FM/SV/C68 arb case - which I am partially responsible for opening), instead content with repeating the threats periodically. I am asking for community input with respect to MONGO continually posioning the well without providing any evidence. Broadly I would like MONGO to cease to comment or make threats about me or my admin actions unless he comes with evidence to back it up. His behaviour is in my opinion highly disruptive. Viridae^Talk 06:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

When asked to stop commenting his response was this: "I will review your actions anytime and anywhere I want to.--MONGO 06:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)" Viridae^Talk 06:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

This may also be of interest: [23] Viridae^Talk 06:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, I'm not thrilled with MONGO's allegations, given how thinly they've so far been substantiated, but I can't help but to notice that most of your fighting seems to be taking place on his talk page. This is a sincere question: have you ever considered not posting there anymore?

talk

) 06:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I find MONGO considerably easier to deal with than Viridae, mostly because while MONGO may be angry on occasion, he's never snippy, sarcastic, or petty. Viridae is all three of these things on MONGO's talk page. Jtrainor (talk) 06:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Have I been any of those to you? You try and deal with continulally unsported allegations time and time again and see how you react? Viridae^Talk 06:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Just have. MONGO usually seeks me out (as he did here). The most recent bit started on MONGO's talk page because DHeyward objected to the article he was edit warring on being protected. Viridae^Talk 06:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You didn't ask me to do anything...you threatened me. I have posted further evidence at the arbcom case regarding you over your goading, threats and other harassment completely unbecoming an administrator. I posted plenty of comments above that discussed your block of Users Para and Crum375...the community that has had time to examine your actions do not agree that you did the best thing and your blocks have been overturned. You have no authorization to demand I never comment about your posted requests for review of your admin actions..as you did on my talkpage...your comments such as "When posting things for review, I never ever want your input unless I specifically ask for it. Is that quite clear MONGO?" and "Either stay well away from me and my actions unless you are DIRECTLY involved or make sure you have a buttload of evidence you are willing to provide to support your claims." are absolutely over the top. Furthermore telling me that you are aruing on my talkpage because you (hopefully sarcastically) trying"To annoy the living shit out of you of course MONGO - I stalk you too, didnt you know?" is completely unacceptable behavior...surely. Your argument on my talkpage with DHeyward was over an article I have never edited and I was offline for two days and only noticed it upon my return...all DHeyward was asking me was what to do about YOU...well, it seems pretty obvious what to do about you now. Hopefully arbcom will do something before you continue to abuse more people.--MONGO 06:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

MONGO you have time and time again over a time span of several months been asked to provide evidence when you make an accusation. You have continually failed to do so. I have asked you to go away. I have told you to go away. Now for the love of god would you try and do that? (by the way MONGO, that last link is sarcasm...) Viridae^Talk 06:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You're asking me to go away...yet you have the right to use my talkpage to argue with another editor over a matter that doesn't involve me in any way fashion or form...now that is rich. I have provided plenty of evidence, as has Felonious Monk, on the arbitration case which you are named in. To continually state that I provide no evidence is false. I had almost the same evidence assembled that Felonious did and seeing no reason to repeat it, posted only what I had that was different than his. We have been over this before.--MONGO 06:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

And for the record, my request is simply for Viridae to stop patrolling my talk page and looking for opportunities to abuse the tools. No reasonable person would conclud from the 1) editors engaged in reverting my edits (i.e. trolls) and 2) 3 reverts in two weeks amounted to an edit war. It's the second time in a month that Viridae protecte a page that I was editing apparently after following my edits. This is entirely inappropriate behavior and I have simply asked him to stop. If Viridae wants to stop edit wars, he can patroll the 3RR noticeboard and if he sees my name, he is more than welcome to protect the page. But the wikistalking has to stop. --DHeyward (talk) 06:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's the relevant discussion and request on Viridae's talk page. This was after the second questionable article protection and it's clear from his comments that he was looking to block me for 3RR (but 3 vandalism reverts over 2 weeks isn't a 3RR violation yet) but to Viridae it is apparently an edit war requiring protection instead of simple harassment reverts that need semi-protection oe even a warning. When it happened to the Joe Scarborough article, I figured it was a good faith attempt, even though that article wasn't an edit war either and was part of the now perma-banned Giovanni33's attempt at disruption (it was his first and last edit to that article and was a revert he made it without an summary). Giovanni33 was supporting an editor that posted material in the edit summaries and on my talk page about me that needed to be oversighted. Viridae showed up shortly after Giovanni33 to protect the page indefinitely rather than dealing with the obvious trolls and harassment. All I ask is Viridae to simply avoid me. Stop watchlisting my talk page and stop following my edits. --DHeyward (talk) 07:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's hopefully unrelated, but the question is, regarding Viridae's block of Crum375...has he wanted to do this for some time? This posting is baffling. Neither block actually took place...but it helped spread the mythology. Oh...am I poisoning the well...is this inadmissible...am I not authorized to bring it up...shall I be now sent to a gulag?--MONGO 07:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Enough with the conspiracy theories, MONGO. The harassment and stalking are tired. Time to let it go and archive this. --Dragon695 (talk) 10:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding? That was an

April fools joke, playing on the supposed "meatpuppetry" between the two. --NE2

10:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MONGO:

Users, especially administrators, who are associated, or suspected of association, with sites which are hypercritical of Wikipedia can expect their Wikipedia activities as well as their activities on the hypercritical website, to be closely monitored.

MONGO is of course correct to raise the issue of an administrator's involvement in Wikipedia Review. Viridae in particular has apparently posted on an attack subforum on that site that specifically targets MONGO. Although comments there by forum user Viridae (who I will for the moment accept as those of Wikipedia's

Jenny

11:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)