Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive725

Can someone please take a look at the actions of Mideastunity (talk · contribs)? This edit appears to be a legal threat. And his edits to Walid Phares suggest edit warring with multiple accounts/IPs including 96.25.239.17 (talk · contribs), JudgeDred1975 (talk · contribs) and TEOS2011 (talk · contribs). Peacock (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

The explicit threat does appear to have been removed by the original author, although the "libel and defamation" verbiage remains.

twinkle

) 19:40, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

They removed the worst of it, but what they left still crosses the NLT line.

I have indef blocked both for legal threats and separately for being a single-purpose advocacy account (NOT, SOAP). I also left a ARBPIA notification, should they retract the legal threats and agree to stop pushing the agenda / soapboxing to the degree they are now... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:54, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks George. Since the article in question, Walid Phares, is a BLP this user may have a valid concern. The material he was removing was critical of the subject, but it is referenced. I don't feel qualified to evaluate whether this material is compliant with our BLP policy so it would probably be a good idea for a few more eyes on the page. Peacock (talk) 20:08, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

My impression of the content - it's negative, but not accusing him of committing crimes or serious personal failings. It's referenced, but by B-grade references (websites rather than print media, etc). It's relevant to pose questions about its quality, BLP suitability, etc. It's not a clear yes or no.

That said, the last thing we need is dedicated SPAs wading in with legal threats and edit warring in this topic area, BLP issues or not. They need to be addressed by people willing to discuss the situation, review the material and Wikipedia policy, and act rationally and in a consensus-seeking manner. Even if it's determined that the BLP aspect was valid, that doesn't excuse the specifics here in any way.

If possible, review by other uninvolved editors/admins on the article talk page would be ideal. Having had to wade in on the NLT / behavioral issue I prefer if the content side is resolved by others - avoid appearance of conflict of interest, etc. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I saw this user's RFPP for the article in question and was reviewing it but decided that it was more a content dispute than vandalism issues, and I don't protect pages due to content disputes to avoid involving myself in them. I did notice that he was loosely throwing around the libel language but he had removed the lawsuit part by the time I saw his reply. All in all I support this block for the reasons given. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 23:27, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering why Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Challenge MMA is still open. It was opened on October 18 and there have been 9 participants, only 1 of which voted to keep the article. Papaursa (talk) 00:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• I patrol the "left-over" AfDs regularly, but I left this one because I currently have an AfD that I started about non-notable MMA events which is turning out to be unexpectedly contentious still running, so I thought it was better to leave this one for someone else. I'm sure someone will come along and close it soon. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:10, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I took care of it, as it wasn't too terribly complicated. Cheers. lifebaka++ 00:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Resolved

 – Joefaust (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from paragliding and hang gliding-related pages. Swarm ^X 18:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

There have been a spate of article creations and problem edits by

WP:SNOWBALL's chance that this would survive an AFD were it let loose in article space. His talk page testifies to the extent of the problem with its long list of notices of now-deleted material; there has been little attempt to engage him there, but one can see a lot of frustration on article pages, as for example on Talk:Paragliding, the main article of which has been protected since 12 October in response to his attempts to change it. I also see that as I have been typing this he has been making more dubious articles in his userspace. I'm not sure exactly what ought to be done but his editing has become disruptive and too many people are having to chase around cleaning up after him. Mangoe (talk

) 14:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I am simply participating in WP editing in good faith efforts. I am participating politely in Paragliding consensus effort. I respect all deletions and study the comments by editors for improving content. Admin is welcome to delete any content they wish; no problem here. I am not an admin, but just a reviewer contributing editor. The discussion for deletion on the

Triangle control frame never invited me into the discussion; I stumbled over the matter after the matter was closed; several of the editors apparently could not see that control frames in hang gliders have the iconic triangle of three parts as THE iconic control frame without which modern hang gliding would be a totally different matter; that triangle is grasped at every launch, during the whole of flight, and during landing; huge sales occur to replace the three parts for hordes of reasons. The wing and its control frame give an aircraft that works well. The deletion of that article might be the spur to develop a larger article on control frames of hang gliders where the triangle iconic control frame is one among many noteworthy control frames; I am working on that draft project in good faith in my user space; is there some WP guide that I am missing here? Thanks. What is this "dubious articles" comment; that is the purpose of draft and contributing...to bring forward potentially excellent articles for the WP project; not every draft will be in article space; perhaps the draft will be merge for section in another article that exists. If such effort is unwanted by the WP project, please tell me and I will stop contributing. People who decide to chase me might have issues that break WP guides; interested admin might look into the chasers, as they may have non-WP motives. Also, I go around and clean up articles on many topics; you are welcome to see my contributions to WP; spelling, better links, improving phrasings for readers, illustrating, etc. Is not that which contributors do...chase chances for improving WP ? Joefaust (talk

) 16:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Faust, this long passage is an example of the problem. You have a theory about aircraft structure, but we have to insist that you are not an acceptable authority on the subject, and that we should not include your analysis in Wikipedia. And as far as "potentially excellent", the numbers of articles you've contributed that have been deleted is really rather high. I'm sorry I forgot to notify you about the deletion discussion, but really, it seems to me that the only difference your participation was likely to have made was to have increased the length of the discussion several-fold; we cannot accept terminology that you have made up yourself, and on that basis, the article was doomed. You seem to be having a great deal of trouble following the rules. Perhaps you should seek out a mentor (there is a program for that) but as it stands your enthusiasm is a liability until it be directed towards proper contribution. Mangoe (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as one of the editors that has been running around after this user trying to clean up and replace opinion and historical quotes with modern cited facts (and as a paraglider pilot of many years) I would concur that something needs to be done. Quite what, is clearly up to those who understand WP policy and procedure of which I know little, if anything. I would also like the WP admins to be aware of the comments at the end of

WP:CANVASS, although I believe this may be being handled by admin User:Qwyrxian (who, in my opinion, has the patience of a saint). I will not post again here as this is hardly the place for debate by contributing editors. 88xxxx (talk

) 18:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick check in here: yes,

paraglider, and all related articles are in a bit of turmoil right now. As far as I can tell so far, the real problem is that all of the contributors are experts (like, they have admitted real world identities of people with 20, 30, 40 years as pilots, often specifically in the field; they are also very active on websites about paragliding). Thus, on talk pages, they find it very difficult to actually argue about sources rather than argue about what they "know" to be "true". As a result, the articles in question are not in great shape--neither preferred version is particularly well cited. I've been trying to sort things out, but the process is just beginning and I've been sidetracked the last few days. Yesterday, Joefaust raised a possible canvassing concern; I meant to get the input of other admins, but haven't got that far yet. So if someone could kindly look at this edit on my talk page; 88xxxx posted the bulk of the possible canvassing email there. The signatory of that email, Rick Masters, is apparently the leading person on the internet arguing that paragliders are death traps that no sane person would ever fly, not when they could fly a hanglider instead. As far as I know, he is not openly editing WP right now, but his presence floats around the discussions all the time. I'm not sure that there's any direct admin action to be taken at this time, though Joefaust is certainly trying my "saintly patience"...let me add more later. Qwyrxian (talk

) 21:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Given the email header on that, it seems the signatory of the email = Joefaust. (BUT, isn't that running dangerously close to

WP:OUTING?) - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

22:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

After a bit of thought, I'm pretty sure it is - I'm redacting herewith. I'm not sure how to RevDel without losing everything, can another admin have a look at fixing that up if need be? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The spam email was from User:Joefaust to an unknown number of recipients, including 88xxxx (me), quoting Rick Masters and appearing to drum up support. Incidentally, the user has openly admitted to being Joe Faust as can be seen here: [[15]]. Over to you guys... 88xxxx (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that Joe is attempting to

the Aircraft WikiProject talk page, since they've been concerned about Joe's edits for a little while. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

22:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that Joefaust just crossed my personal line from "needs help" to "bad faith contributor".

Paraglider to be. In other words, he is intentionally going behind the backs of other editors, avoiding current consensus, so that he can get his way. This is unacceptable behavior. Joefaust can either follow WP rules, and actually discuss topics (with sources, not just from his own opinion), or he can find another website to edit. I'm obviously too close to this, so maybe I'm overreacting, but that dab page comes pretty close to confirming to me that Joefaust is not here to collaboratively build an encyclopedia but just to push his own POV (which appears to not be one commonly held in the field) about what a paraglider is, their history, and how dangerous they are. Qwyrxian (talk

) 23:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with that, excessive kite material was added to an aircraft structure article some time ago (two years or more) and we had a civil discussion. English does not appear to be Joe's first language (I may be wrong) and he is clearly not appreciating what 'encylopedic' means. His enthusiastic efforts need to be applied somewhere else or added here within the guidelines. Cleaning up after editors is a big problem and it needs to be highlighted in this case, hopefully Joe can understand this. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

...and in this corner, he's forking

WP:AFC will promote Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Paraglider (gliding kite). Mangoe (talk

) 23:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

And on top of that, I found the following set of pages waiting to be unleashed on the world:

• User:Joefaust/Paragliders (the gliding kites of NASA)
• User:Joefaust/Template:Comparison of types of kite hang gliders
• User:Joefaust/Paraglider (the pilot)
• User:Joefaust/Paragliding by police
• User:Joefaust/Hang glider (control-frame parts)
• User:Joefaust/Paragliding (industry)
• User:Joefaust/Paraglider (multiple uses in society): This one has a long list of red links suggesting yet others he intends to create/fork
• User:Joefaust/DRAFTarticleStructureParagliding appears to be a schema for the whole thing

Many of these duplicate articles which have already been deleted at least once. I also see that he took it upon himself to promote his own article out of AFC: [16] Could we please stop the madness? Mangoe (talk) 00:56, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

May I also point out Category:Deaths by hang gliding...ugh... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Restored from archiving for further discussion; datestamped one week in the future to avoid archiving. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Once again User:Joefaust is moving pages from his "User" area into WP, and once again they are being AfD. World Paragliding Association. 88xxxx (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Given his complete inability to "get it" and his continued use of Wikipedia for spamming and self-promotion I would support an immediate block on this user. - Ahunt (talk) 12:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Since we have a clear consensus on action here, including opinions provided by a couple of admins and because this editor has been continuing on his merry way unheedingly, I think we can probably close this discussion and have an uninvolved admin action this. - Ahunt (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban

I agree with the concerns expressed about this editor, he seems to be in a

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT I would suggest that a topic ban on articles related to paragliding and hang gliding would be appropriate. - Ahunt (talk

) 13:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support topic ban, broadly construed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Editor is not independent enough to edit neutrally in this area. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I thought there were signs that he was going to take a break but I see in Talk:Paragliding that he continues to go on and frankly it seems far less than coherent. Mangoe (talk) 05:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Joefaust's attempt to use
  _berate
  12:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support has a clear conflict of interest in the subject indicated by creating articles on his own organisation World Paragliding Association where he even mentions himself as founder. Cant guarantee with such a clear COI that the editor doesn not have a neutral point of view. MilborneOne (talk) 12:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
• NOT support: Hey guys and gals, there are other perspectives on each action and effort. I am listening, learning, studying as fast as possible about WP guides. I have participated politely in discussions and am fully open to consensus. In the effort I look for solutions and drafted in user space things to support discussion. For instance, Jontyla and 88:xxxx asked in discussion directly for missing sections, if seen; and 88:xxxx directed "more the merrier" and so I drafted in User space an outline of sections that I thought would be something for the article on Paragliding; it was not easy to give that work to help the program. Editor Q___ said that outline would never fly; but some would work, perhaps; well, the effort thus was a positive contribution: many sections that editors could survey to see if any works for the article. That effort was an effort to build the encyclopedia; my enthusiasm to answer two editors and the aiming for a robust article that admins say has lots of problems should not count against me, I would think.

I was on the understanding that one could draft things in User space; so I have been doing that in an effort to help solve what others were seeing as a problem; I explored various things; such is what WP seems to tell me is welcome. User talk:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider" is another recent effort to help the program. Editor Q____ and others were seemingly addressing whether a WP user would approach WP with "paraglider" with something other than the activity of sport paragliding; well this new draft article is aimed at helping visiting users to negotiate "paraglider" in WP. I entered the link into the consensus discussion that is ongoing in Paraglider discussion space. That is, I am working collaboratively with others. WP articles know "paraglider" beyond activity in sport; the group of editors have not yet reached consensus on even the nature of the article "paragliding" and we are still struggling with the machine word "paraglider".

I am learning the ropes, not avoiding the ropes in the editor space. I have been pausing, studying WP guides. Biting a contributor is against WP.

In the root start of the article World ParaGliding Association I recused myself from AfD on the org matter as COI. COI is not a bad word; COI is something to note, respect, and to flag for caution. I will not enter the article to edit after its start; any editor in the world may edit the article; and any editor may advance it well or injure it; other editors may bring in better references, etc. I recused or in a sense banned myself from that article after its start; WP will decide to keep it or not or send its contents to be a section or note in some other article; I will not do those actions.

I have no business operation in paragliding; paragliding is part of my hobby. I have interest in thousands of WP articles and edit in many of them.

If one wants to explore some of the roots of some of the tension in discussions on "paraglider" and "paragliding" then explore the online treatment that Johntla and 88:xxxx gave to a simple topic thread in their forum that I started. Giuseppe is the keyword.

Editor Q_____ in dab discussion on "paraglider" matured to suggest a "compromise" which was fruit of the good work that we all were doing; I brought in resonance with a link to draft work User talk:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider". The work has been a good-faith struggle; I have not seen a remark yet on the merit potential of such a List article. Joefaust (talk) 18:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, the draft article link is rather: User:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider" Joefaust (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Correction: Jontyla and 88:xxxx Joefaust (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've been patient, and tried to help. I get that Joefaust has a lot of knowledge about aviation. However, given the very message above, I must support a topic ban. Joefaust must know very well that we don't have articles titled
  Paragliders shows that xe will take every opportunity to push his POV he can find. And finally this note above, which if I'm reading it correctly, implies that all of his tendentious editing was actually a good thing for the encyclopedia...I recommend a topic ban, but give Joefaust a clear opportunity that if xe can demonstrate an ability to edit constructively in other topics for 6 months or so, then xe could have that topic ban lifted relatively easily. Qwyrxian (talk
  ) 21:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support A large proportion of Joe Faust's edits have been reversed or substantially altered by other users. I support a ban JMcC (talk) 00:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I just want to be clear, too--the ban needs to cover all aviation topics; limiting it to paragliding would not work because one of the fundamental problems is that JoeFaust has an idiosyncratic definition of what paragliding is. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - that was why I said "broadly construed", although I would not object to "aviation and aviation-related topics" being the wording. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I concur. Joe's list page shows intent to go after pretty much any aviation-related page. Mangoe (talk) 01:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is what I think paragliding is for recreation and sport paragliding as done by 88:xxxx : The people fly paragliders adapted to their purpose. Not deep, not disruptive. Good RS are available for that.

Qwyrxian: I did not know that WP does not have lists for articles mentioning or dedicated to a topic. I drafted the item in user space to participate with you in the collaborative project on discerning dab for "paraglider" as you were pressing and pressing for how a visitor to WP might have an interest that would end in some other place than sport/recreation paragliding. I was participating in our discussion with high interest and energy in good faith. I see lists throughout WP and prsented the page to you in our discussion without putting it into main space; indeed, the side-support project is not done. I thought you would look at it and get a hint that visitors could approach WP with paraglider interests that are different than just rec/sport. The machine has place in WP much aside of such rec/sport.

List of articles about local government in the United Kingdomand List of articles about Three Mile Island. So, why not a List of articles about paraglider ? It felt natural and a plus to WP. Joefaust (talk

) 02:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for finding those; I've nominated both of them for deletion. Regarding you, perhaps that was a good faith thought for an article, my apologies for assuming you knew it wasn't. That doesn't change the fact that everything you seem to do is to find every niche in Wikipedia you can (whether it is new or existing articles) to get your message out there. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, glad I could help. Note the three, not just two articles. In similar vein are are hundreds of more: MORE lists of articles.Joefaust (talk) 04:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. I'm not sure that Joe isn't acting in good faith (according to his lights), but like Ahunt I feel that given that he so spectacularly doesn't "get it", there really isn't much choice. (Edit: note, I'm not an admin) Jontyla (talk) 11:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I have to agree that a topic ban across all aviation-related topics is warranted. Even as this debate has been going on the editor in question has been carrying on adding external links to articles, which rather run contrary to his pleas above. - Ahunt (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you note that the external link was one short sentence to an entity that does not belong to me, that was missing from the section, and that in good faith I was simply doing some contributing; notice the date of the add. The article tags invited improvements. Is not this what WP project wants done? Instead of encouraging advance that article, it feels like you would have me not to have added that sentence; that would be confusing to me. Joefaust (talk) 01:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support ban on aviation and kiting related topics. I'm not sure if non-admins are supposed to edit here, and if not please delete this edit. I've been heavily involved in trying to correct this users changes to such pages and consequently have spent some of the past weeks trying to decide if Joefaust's editing was malicious, or just misguided thanks to his distorted world-view of what a paraglider is or isn't. Frankly, I feel pretty sure it's both. Firstly, rewriting pages and renaming standard equipment, forcing editors to revert & re-work major sections and then the locking of the paragliding page. Then showing blatant disregard for debate, refusing to be persuaded that he has no consensus and holds a fringe, minority viewpoint (in many cases, a minority of 1) and trying to bypass discussion and force his ideas into pages without discussion or consensus. All of which went AfD, I might add. I'm close to this, for sure, but that's because I am a paraglider pilot of many years and would not wish, for example, to see a paraglider described to the curious public as a 'kite' in an encyclopaedia. The sooner this user is blocked from editing such pages the better. 88xxxx (talk) 20:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Any uninvolved admin would be enlightened to research the timing of 88xxxx into the paragliding-paraglider situation following his treatments in the forum where he posts. Topic keyword: Giuseppe. That kind of treatment followed me into this paragliding-paraglider scene. Please look how he followed me in WP in this last month. I trust that an uninvolved admin well weight the conduct. His following and pattern has affected matters. Thanks to someone to take an equitable look. Thank you. Joefaust (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say you should focus on the message, not the messenger(s). Following people? Patterns? This is not the place for anything other than debate as to your behaviour, as viewed by independent administrators of WP, who most likely know little of, and care little for paragliding. Joe, if a user wishes to see what I have edited on WP, they can view it at Special:Contributions/88xxxx. Likewise with any edits you have made. The only pattern I see emerging from my edits is trying to tidy up after what consensus suggest are the inappropriate edits you have made. This is a noticeboard for the admins, if you wish to question my behaviour on WP, I think your supposed to do it here: User_talk:88xxxx and then maybe ask an admin for an opinion on it. Keyword: Paranoia? 88xxxx (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Stuck in limbo

Could some uninvolved administrator please take a look at this, and either do something, or determine that nothing will be done? Mangoe (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I second that - we have a clear consensus on what the problem is and the action required here and yet this just keeps dragging on. This needs to be closed and actioned now. - Ahunt (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

You must notify any user you mention here. I've notified 99. for you. --

talk

) 05:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. He's just trying to shorten the plot, which he feels is too long. I've semi-protected the page for a few hours due to the edit warring, but beyond that there's nothing to see here. Swarm ^X 06:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Resolved

 – Joefaust (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from paragliding and hang gliding-related pages. Swarm ^X 18:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

There have been a spate of article creations and problem edits by

WP:SNOWBALL's chance that this would survive an AFD were it let loose in article space. His talk page testifies to the extent of the problem with its long list of notices of now-deleted material; there has been little attempt to engage him there, but one can see a lot of frustration on article pages, as for example on Talk:Paragliding, the main article of which has been protected since 12 October in response to his attempts to change it. I also see that as I have been typing this he has been making more dubious articles in his userspace. I'm not sure exactly what ought to be done but his editing has become disruptive and too many people are having to chase around cleaning up after him. Mangoe (talk

) 14:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I am simply participating in WP editing in good faith efforts. I am participating politely in Paragliding consensus effort. I respect all deletions and study the comments by editors for improving content. Admin is welcome to delete any content they wish; no problem here. I am not an admin, but just a reviewer contributing editor. The discussion for deletion on the

Triangle control frame never invited me into the discussion; I stumbled over the matter after the matter was closed; several of the editors apparently could not see that control frames in hang gliders have the iconic triangle of three parts as THE iconic control frame without which modern hang gliding would be a totally different matter; that triangle is grasped at every launch, during the whole of flight, and during landing; huge sales occur to replace the three parts for hordes of reasons. The wing and its control frame give an aircraft that works well. The deletion of that article might be the spur to develop a larger article on control frames of hang gliders where the triangle iconic control frame is one among many noteworthy control frames; I am working on that draft project in good faith in my user space; is there some WP guide that I am missing here? Thanks. What is this "dubious articles" comment; that is the purpose of draft and contributing...to bring forward potentially excellent articles for the WP project; not every draft will be in article space; perhaps the draft will be merge for section in another article that exists. If such effort is unwanted by the WP project, please tell me and I will stop contributing. People who decide to chase me might have issues that break WP guides; interested admin might look into the chasers, as they may have non-WP motives. Also, I go around and clean up articles on many topics; you are welcome to see my contributions to WP; spelling, better links, improving phrasings for readers, illustrating, etc. Is not that which contributors do...chase chances for improving WP ? Joefaust (talk

) 16:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Faust, this long passage is an example of the problem. You have a theory about aircraft structure, but we have to insist that you are not an acceptable authority on the subject, and that we should not include your analysis in Wikipedia. And as far as "potentially excellent", the numbers of articles you've contributed that have been deleted is really rather high. I'm sorry I forgot to notify you about the deletion discussion, but really, it seems to me that the only difference your participation was likely to have made was to have increased the length of the discussion several-fold; we cannot accept terminology that you have made up yourself, and on that basis, the article was doomed. You seem to be having a great deal of trouble following the rules. Perhaps you should seek out a mentor (there is a program for that) but as it stands your enthusiasm is a liability until it be directed towards proper contribution. Mangoe (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as one of the editors that has been running around after this user trying to clean up and replace opinion and historical quotes with modern cited facts (and as a paraglider pilot of many years) I would concur that something needs to be done. Quite what, is clearly up to those who understand WP policy and procedure of which I know little, if anything. I would also like the WP admins to be aware of the comments at the end of

WP:CANVASS, although I believe this may be being handled by admin User:Qwyrxian (who, in my opinion, has the patience of a saint). I will not post again here as this is hardly the place for debate by contributing editors. 88xxxx (talk

) 18:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick check in here: yes,

paraglider, and all related articles are in a bit of turmoil right now. As far as I can tell so far, the real problem is that all of the contributors are experts (like, they have admitted real world identities of people with 20, 30, 40 years as pilots, often specifically in the field; they are also very active on websites about paragliding). Thus, on talk pages, they find it very difficult to actually argue about sources rather than argue about what they "know" to be "true". As a result, the articles in question are not in great shape--neither preferred version is particularly well cited. I've been trying to sort things out, but the process is just beginning and I've been sidetracked the last few days. Yesterday, Joefaust raised a possible canvassing concern; I meant to get the input of other admins, but haven't got that far yet. So if someone could kindly look at this edit on my talk page; 88xxxx posted the bulk of the possible canvassing email there. The signatory of that email, Rick Masters, is apparently the leading person on the internet arguing that paragliders are death traps that no sane person would ever fly, not when they could fly a hanglider instead. As far as I know, he is not openly editing WP right now, but his presence floats around the discussions all the time. I'm not sure that there's any direct admin action to be taken at this time, though Joefaust is certainly trying my "saintly patience"...let me add more later. Qwyrxian (talk

) 21:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Given the email header on that, it seems the signatory of the email = Joefaust. (BUT, isn't that running dangerously close to

WP:OUTING?) - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

22:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

After a bit of thought, I'm pretty sure it is - I'm redacting herewith. I'm not sure how to RevDel without losing everything, can another admin have a look at fixing that up if need be? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The spam email was from User:Joefaust to an unknown number of recipients, including 88xxxx (me), quoting Rick Masters and appearing to drum up support. Incidentally, the user has openly admitted to being Joe Faust as can be seen here: [[17]]. Over to you guys... 88xxxx (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that Joe is attempting to

the Aircraft WikiProject talk page, since they've been concerned about Joe's edits for a little while. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

22:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that Joefaust just crossed my personal line from "needs help" to "bad faith contributor".

Paraglider to be. In other words, he is intentionally going behind the backs of other editors, avoiding current consensus, so that he can get his way. This is unacceptable behavior. Joefaust can either follow WP rules, and actually discuss topics (with sources, not just from his own opinion), or he can find another website to edit. I'm obviously too close to this, so maybe I'm overreacting, but that dab page comes pretty close to confirming to me that Joefaust is not here to collaboratively build an encyclopedia but just to push his own POV (which appears to not be one commonly held in the field) about what a paraglider is, their history, and how dangerous they are. Qwyrxian (talk

) 23:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with that, excessive kite material was added to an aircraft structure article some time ago (two years or more) and we had a civil discussion. English does not appear to be Joe's first language (I may be wrong) and he is clearly not appreciating what 'encylopedic' means. His enthusiastic efforts need to be applied somewhere else or added here within the guidelines. Cleaning up after editors is a big problem and it needs to be highlighted in this case, hopefully Joe can understand this. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

...and in this corner, he's forking

WP:AFC will promote Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Paraglider (gliding kite). Mangoe (talk

) 23:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

And on top of that, I found the following set of pages waiting to be unleashed on the world:

• User:Joefaust/Paragliders (the gliding kites of NASA)
• User:Joefaust/Template:Comparison of types of kite hang gliders
• User:Joefaust/Paraglider (the pilot)
• User:Joefaust/Paragliding by police
• User:Joefaust/Hang glider (control-frame parts)
• User:Joefaust/Paragliding (industry)
• User:Joefaust/Paraglider (multiple uses in society): This one has a long list of red links suggesting yet others he intends to create/fork
• User:Joefaust/DRAFTarticleStructureParagliding appears to be a schema for the whole thing

Many of these duplicate articles which have already been deleted at least once. I also see that he took it upon himself to promote his own article out of AFC: [18] Could we please stop the madness? Mangoe (talk) 00:56, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

May I also point out Category:Deaths by hang gliding...ugh... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Restored from archiving for further discussion; datestamped one week in the future to avoid archiving. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Once again User:Joefaust is moving pages from his "User" area into WP, and once again they are being AfD. World Paragliding Association. 88xxxx (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Given his complete inability to "get it" and his continued use of Wikipedia for spamming and self-promotion I would support an immediate block on this user. - Ahunt (talk) 12:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Since we have a clear consensus on action here, including opinions provided by a couple of admins and because this editor has been continuing on his merry way unheedingly, I think we can probably close this discussion and have an uninvolved admin action this. - Ahunt (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban

I agree with the concerns expressed about this editor, he seems to be in a

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT I would suggest that a topic ban on articles related to paragliding and hang gliding would be appropriate. - Ahunt (talk

) 13:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support topic ban, broadly construed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Editor is not independent enough to edit neutrally in this area. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I thought there were signs that he was going to take a break but I see in Talk:Paragliding that he continues to go on and frankly it seems far less than coherent. Mangoe (talk) 05:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Joefaust's attempt to use
  _berate
  12:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support has a clear conflict of interest in the subject indicated by creating articles on his own organisation World Paragliding Association where he even mentions himself as founder. Cant guarantee with such a clear COI that the editor doesn not have a neutral point of view. MilborneOne (talk) 12:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
• NOT support: Hey guys and gals, there are other perspectives on each action and effort. I am listening, learning, studying as fast as possible about WP guides. I have participated politely in discussions and am fully open to consensus. In the effort I look for solutions and drafted in user space things to support discussion. For instance, Jontyla and 88:xxxx asked in discussion directly for missing sections, if seen; and 88:xxxx directed "more the merrier" and so I drafted in User space an outline of sections that I thought would be something for the article on Paragliding; it was not easy to give that work to help the program. Editor Q___ said that outline would never fly; but some would work, perhaps; well, the effort thus was a positive contribution: many sections that editors could survey to see if any works for the article. That effort was an effort to build the encyclopedia; my enthusiasm to answer two editors and the aiming for a robust article that admins say has lots of problems should not count against me, I would think.

I was on the understanding that one could draft things in User space; so I have been doing that in an effort to help solve what others were seeing as a problem; I explored various things; such is what WP seems to tell me is welcome. User talk:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider" is another recent effort to help the program. Editor Q____ and others were seemingly addressing whether a WP user would approach WP with "paraglider" with something other than the activity of sport paragliding; well this new draft article is aimed at helping visiting users to negotiate "paraglider" in WP. I entered the link into the consensus discussion that is ongoing in Paraglider discussion space. That is, I am working collaboratively with others. WP articles know "paraglider" beyond activity in sport; the group of editors have not yet reached consensus on even the nature of the article "paragliding" and we are still struggling with the machine word "paraglider".

I am learning the ropes, not avoiding the ropes in the editor space. I have been pausing, studying WP guides. Biting a contributor is against WP.

In the root start of the article World ParaGliding Association I recused myself from AfD on the org matter as COI. COI is not a bad word; COI is something to note, respect, and to flag for caution. I will not enter the article to edit after its start; any editor in the world may edit the article; and any editor may advance it well or injure it; other editors may bring in better references, etc. I recused or in a sense banned myself from that article after its start; WP will decide to keep it or not or send its contents to be a section or note in some other article; I will not do those actions.

I have no business operation in paragliding; paragliding is part of my hobby. I have interest in thousands of WP articles and edit in many of them.

If one wants to explore some of the roots of some of the tension in discussions on "paraglider" and "paragliding" then explore the online treatment that Johntla and 88:xxxx gave to a simple topic thread in their forum that I started. Giuseppe is the keyword.

Editor Q_____ in dab discussion on "paraglider" matured to suggest a "compromise" which was fruit of the good work that we all were doing; I brought in resonance with a link to draft work User talk:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider". The work has been a good-faith struggle; I have not seen a remark yet on the merit potential of such a List article. Joefaust (talk) 18:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, the draft article link is rather: User:Joefaust/List of articles mentioning "paraglider" Joefaust (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Correction: Jontyla and 88:xxxx Joefaust (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've been patient, and tried to help. I get that Joefaust has a lot of knowledge about aviation. However, given the very message above, I must support a topic ban. Joefaust must know very well that we don't have articles titled
  Paragliders shows that xe will take every opportunity to push his POV he can find. And finally this note above, which if I'm reading it correctly, implies that all of his tendentious editing was actually a good thing for the encyclopedia...I recommend a topic ban, but give Joefaust a clear opportunity that if xe can demonstrate an ability to edit constructively in other topics for 6 months or so, then xe could have that topic ban lifted relatively easily. Qwyrxian (talk
  ) 21:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
• Support A large proportion of Joe Faust's edits have been reversed or substantially altered by other users. I support a ban JMcC (talk) 00:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I just want to be clear, too--the ban needs to cover all aviation topics; limiting it to paragliding would not work because one of the fundamental problems is that JoeFaust has an idiosyncratic definition of what paragliding is. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - that was why I said "broadly construed", although I would not object to "aviation and aviation-related topics" being the wording. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I concur. Joe's list page shows intent to go after pretty much any aviation-related page. Mangoe (talk) 01:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is what I think paragliding is for recreation and sport paragliding as done by 88:xxxx : The people fly paragliders adapted to their purpose. Not deep, not disruptive. Good RS are available for that.

Qwyrxian: I did not know that WP does not have lists for articles mentioning or dedicated to a topic. I drafted the item in user space to participate with you in the collaborative project on discerning dab for "paraglider" as you were pressing and pressing for how a visitor to WP might have an interest that would end in some other place than sport/recreation paragliding. I was participating in our discussion with high interest and energy in good faith. I see lists throughout WP and prsented the page to you in our discussion without putting it into main space; indeed, the side-support project is not done. I thought you would look at it and get a hint that visitors could approach WP with paraglider interests that are different than just rec/sport. The machine has place in WP much aside of such rec/sport.

List of articles about local government in the United Kingdomand List of articles about Three Mile Island. So, why not a List of articles about paraglider ? It felt natural and a plus to WP. Joefaust (talk

) 02:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for finding those; I've nominated both of them for deletion. Regarding you, perhaps that was a good faith thought for an article, my apologies for assuming you knew it wasn't. That doesn't change the fact that everything you seem to do is to find every niche in Wikipedia you can (whether it is new or existing articles) to get your message out there. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, glad I could help. Note the three, not just two articles. In similar vein are are hundreds of more: MORE lists of articles.Joefaust (talk) 04:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. I'm not sure that Joe isn't acting in good faith (according to his lights), but like Ahunt I feel that given that he so spectacularly doesn't "get it", there really isn't much choice. (Edit: note, I'm not an admin) Jontyla (talk) 11:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I have to agree that a topic ban across all aviation-related topics is warranted. Even as this debate has been going on the editor in question has been carrying on adding external links to articles, which rather run contrary to his pleas above. - Ahunt (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you note that the external link was one short sentence to an entity that does not belong to me, that was missing from the section, and that in good faith I was simply doing some contributing; notice the date of the add. The article tags invited improvements. Is not this what WP project wants done? Instead of encouraging advance that article, it feels like you would have me not to have added that sentence; that would be confusing to me. Joefaust (talk) 01:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support ban on aviation and kiting related topics. I'm not sure if non-admins are supposed to edit here, and if not please delete this edit. I've been heavily involved in trying to correct this users changes to such pages and consequently have spent some of the past weeks trying to decide if Joefaust's editing was malicious, or just misguided thanks to his distorted world-view of what a paraglider is or isn't. Frankly, I feel pretty sure it's both. Firstly, rewriting pages and renaming standard equipment, forcing editors to revert & re-work major sections and then the locking of the paragliding page. Then showing blatant disregard for debate, refusing to be persuaded that he has no consensus and holds a fringe, minority viewpoint (in many cases, a minority of 1) and trying to bypass discussion and force his ideas into pages without discussion or consensus. All of which went AfD, I might add. I'm close to this, for sure, but that's because I am a paraglider pilot of many years and would not wish, for example, to see a paraglider described to the curious public as a 'kite' in an encyclopaedia. The sooner this user is blocked from editing such pages the better. 88xxxx (talk) 20:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Any uninvolved admin would be enlightened to research the timing of 88xxxx into the paragliding-paraglider situation following his treatments in the forum where he posts. Topic keyword: Giuseppe. That kind of treatment followed me into this paragliding-paraglider scene. Please look how he followed me in WP in this last month. I trust that an uninvolved admin well weight the conduct. His following and pattern has affected matters. Thanks to someone to take an equitable look. Thank you. Joefaust (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say you should focus on the message, not the messenger(s). Following people? Patterns? This is not the place for anything other than debate as to your behaviour, as viewed by independent administrators of WP, who most likely know little of, and care little for paragliding. Joe, if a user wishes to see what I have edited on WP, they can view it at Special:Contributions/88xxxx. Likewise with any edits you have made. The only pattern I see emerging from my edits is trying to tidy up after what consensus suggest are the inappropriate edits you have made. This is a noticeboard for the admins, if you wish to question my behaviour on WP, I think your supposed to do it here: User_talk:88xxxx and then maybe ask an admin for an opinion on it. Keyword: Paranoia? 88xxxx (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Stuck in limbo

Could some uninvolved administrator please take a look at this, and either do something, or determine that nothing will be done? Mangoe (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I second that - we have a clear consensus on what the problem is and the action required here and yet this just keeps dragging on. This needs to be closed and actioned now. - Ahunt (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

You must notify any user you mention here. I've notified 99. for you. --

talk

) 05:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. He's just trying to shorten the plot, which he feels is too long. I've semi-protected the page for a few hours due to the edit warring, but beyond that there's nothing to see here. Swarm ^X 06:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Dohezarsersdah has gotten into an extremely lame war on Theocracy removing content on the basis that websites cannot be used as sources. Despite numerous warnings and pointers, he is continuing to war over this. I have an RPP request in but it has not been acknowledged as of yet, and enough is enough. Calabe1992 (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

• Dohezarsersdah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

An indef block for disruptive editing should be considered, but it is reasonable to wait for a response. (He has been notified of this discussion). He has made five nearly identical reverts at Theocracy over several days and appears to be ignoring all feedback. His account was created three weeks ago. He has been editing aggressively on other articles as well. His recent contribution history is full of reverts. This edit is plain vandalism. Might this possibly be a sock? The edit summaries do not suggest a new user. His talk page would contain 20K bytes of warnings by now if he had not been constantly removing the warnings. That's pretty fast work for a three-week-old account. EdJohnston (talk) 00:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I must second your thoughts. I'm taking a look at his contributions, but haven't found any other accounts sticking out as of yet. Note that this account was created on 10/2, but didn't edit until 10/8. Calabe1992 (talk) 00:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree. The editor has been as flexible as a bot in his/her edits. Dohezarsersdah violates 3RR, edit wars, then blanks the warnings from his/her talk page. I feel this editor will not understand the fruitlessness of editing this way and the usefulness of editing via talk page discussions from anything short of a block. The time off also may help the user in the form of a

wikibreak.--Louiedog (talk

) 01:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't see forcing a wikibreak as a good objective for a block as that is not what a block is intended for, but I don't think this user will stop the destructive habits unless a block is enforced. It comes back to simply protecting the articles from him. Calabe1992 (talk) 01:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well I blocked the account for 24 hours for violation of the three-revert rule before seeing this thread; if someone could kindly copy any comments he makes on his talk page to here, that would be appreciated. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I also think this account may be a sock. His edit summaries are a bit perverse, eg [19] where he wrote "source needed (it's false anyway)" (note that it was sourced), [20] where he deletes references and says "no references", [21] where he deletes a source and writes "DON'T DELETE SOURCES", etc (eg one where he removes a source from this century saying it's antiquated while elsewhere he uses a 1909 source. That he has a nationalist agenda is clear, eg his edit summary "undoing a turk's changes" and his edit-warring to remove a well-sourced comment that someone born in Iran came from a Turkish family.

talk

) 09:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is his response:

This is ridiculous. From basically my first edit, I have been harassed by "trigger happy" admin who have reverted my edits on site, and left "warning" messages on my Talk page saying "your edit on x page doesn't seem to be constructive". They usually then, without exception, realize they've made a mistake, and then moved on, without apologizing. Apparently though I upset the user "Dougweller" to such an extent that he and a set of aggrieved admins decided to dedicate themselves to my undoing, with no regard for the Wikipedia encyclopedia project, but continuing to edit war my contributions which are all only to IMPROVE the accuracy of the articles (topics on which I have a great deal of expertise) in order to pursue their petty vendettas. Is it too much to ask for a "Oops, sorry I was wrong there, I didn't mean to assume you were being disruptive"? Obviously it was. So I returned their acidity, and continued to click the "undo" button as often as they did.

You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy), Yopie's edits (3 reverts) actually degrade the article. I have no problem with the section, but it must be accurately referenced. A random website called "jewishvirtuallibrary" is not a proper source - neither is an opinion piece in a newspaper.

You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#Sufi_doctrine) Calabe1992 (an admin) reverted my edit and then pasted yet another ugly "warning" on my talk page - obviosuly, before realizing that he was mistaken.

You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) Dougweller (an admin) and Kafka Liz (a senior member who has been on Wikipedia for "4 years, 2 months and 17 days") have been edit warring to remove ESTABLISHED FACT that Bektashi was Persian (he was born in Persia, spoke Persian, and wrote in Persian... the Betkashi's elders are called "Pirs" for christ's sakes, a Persian word) and REMOVING the source I worked to find and that they were apparently too lazy to find themselves (The Harvard Theological Review, Cambridge University Press, Vol. 2, No. 3, Jul., 1909, (p. 343).

You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haji_Bektash_Veli) Dougweller (the admin) apparently followed me and carried on the same behavior.

You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world), The Mark of the Beast (an admin?) and Metricopolus (another admin? - i don't know, they all posted "warnings" to my page) did the same thing. I had to fight "tooth and nail" to restore the correct information.

So yeah, I apologize if some of my comments haven't been particularly "civil". But when all these admins and established users edit war and "warn" me of "vandalism" when I'm only trying to improve articles on topics they clearly know nothing about, it gets a little old. Dohezarsersdah (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I find it pretty disturbing that an admin, Dougweller is allowed to behave this way. He says: "we have a reliable source that says his family was Turkish, no reason not to use it, if we have a source saying something else, use that also)", so I do exactly that, and then HIS VERY NEXT EDIT DELETES the source I just added! (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alevi&action=historysubmit&diff=457551448&oldid=457544689) Way to "pratice what you preach"! Dohezarsersdah (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I responded as follows on this talk page: In any case, saying "He says: "we have a reliable source that says his family was Turkish, no reason not to use it, if we have a source saying something else, use that also)", so I do exactly that, and then HIS VERY NEXT EDIT DELETES the source I just added! (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alevi&action=historysubmit&diff=457551448&oldid=457544689)" is not accurate. What actually happened was that the edit I reverted was [22] which removed the sourced statement that his family was Turkish rather than add something else also, as I suggested. What I was trying to get across was that the sourced statement that his family was Turkish should be left in, but if we had a conflicting statement that his family was Persian that could be added as well to indicate that this was uncertain. As for following anyone, yes, like many other editors when we find an editor vandalising (as was clearly done earlier at

talk

) 15:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at other complaints of his, the result of Yopie's edits at [[Theocracy was to leave the article in the state it was before Dohezarsersdah edited it, so I can't see how that degraded it. Dohezarsersdah objects to using

talk

) 16:05, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Dohezarsersdah is truly paying a lot of attention to any of what is being said. He writes "You'll notice on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#Sufi_doctrine) Calabe1992 (an admin) reverted my edit and then pasted yet another ugly "warning" on my talk page - obviosuly, before realizing that he was mistaken." - first of all I am not an admin, and second of all, what is "realizing that he was mistaken"? I didn't revert myself; just didn't happen to want to war with him over something meaningless to me. Calabe1992 (talk) 19:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

• - As per his edit history - he has so far been a disruptive user, lets hope he takes this community warning to heart and takes on board the advice. As
  Off2riorob (talk
  ) 04:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

He's back - his talk page comments aren't exactly friendly, but the main problem is that he is insisting that a reliable source is wrong but in particular that we shouldn't use the source to say that

talk

) 13:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

We've given Dohezarsersdah lots of time to respond to this ANI thread, and he has not done so. Nothing he has said on his talk page indicates a positive intent. (He is very good at removing warnings). Since he burst onto the scene as a nationalist edit warrior just three weeks ago, and he only appears to be on Wikipedia for disruption, it would be logical to proceed with the indef block that was suggested at the top of this thread. EdJohnston (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi,

I've just had a user come back regarding some edits I made almost 9 months ago(!) making accusations like I "made their life a HELL", that I had accused them of lying (when I'd just added some cn, disputed tags) etc. I'd rather someone else came in and added their input to this matter (if only for the record) as I don't think it would be constructive me adding any more to this on my own(!)

The discussions are at

• [24]
• [25]
• and the history of [26] is also relevant.

Ubcule (talk) 01:01, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

What administrative action is required here? The user appears to have popped out of nowhere, flamed, and then left again. I suppose the editor could be warned, but that's not likely to accomplish anything if he's already left. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 09:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

There were two reasons.

To be honest, when someone starts making unjustified (but serious) accusations of harrassment, trolling and making someone's life "a HELL"(!) against me- whether the other person believes it or not, I'd prefer someone from outside to take a *brief* look at the situation, put their view on record.

This person came back after almost 9 months and starts making hysterical baseless accusations- I don't want (or intend) to let this escalate into some silly drama, but given this person's apparent animosity towards me, I suspect trying to explain myself further to them- they've already got the wrong end of the stick in several areas- would make it worse. I'd rather someone from outside posted a very brief note (still assuming good faith, even if their conduct was bad!) to this person. Ubcule (talk) 13:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Lobocursor has made a request which will probably be met with instructions on how to scramble his password. Should that not happen, if he makes any other personal attacks I'll block the account myself. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 13:39, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Note: Similar accusations left on my talk page and I responded there (I'll cc Lobocursor's talk page in a second). I don't think this warrants intervention by admin. I see someone making good faith edits to the article but is completely unaware of the processes of the project and taking reverts too personally. I tried to encourage the editor to read up on the rules and such. We'll see if they stick around or not. Wikipelli ^Talk 12:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Several editors (

I'm also aware that the article needs moving to Ratnam Concept School, but have left it until this issue is resolved Yunshui 雲水 10:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I became involved after responding to a submission at the

3RR limit in removing the content. The issue seems to be the conduct of the users involved, who are not responding to attempts at discussion (on the talk page, their own talk pages and the DRN), so the involvement of an admin would be helpful. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions}

) 10:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

BWilkins ←track

) 11:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

... now, if someone whose Twinkle is working would be so kind as to add a welcome template to the IP's and User that discusses how promotion is bad, I'd appreciate it.

BWilkins ←track

) 11:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, much appreciated. I've welcomed the three users with the NPOV welcome template. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 11:10, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I've raised this at

Nevermind; Closedmouth got in there and fixed it whilst I was typing the above. Yunshui 雲水 14:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Per Jehochman, no admin action required causa sui (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The page

• Deletion of the page Moroccan: [27]
• History of Moroccan (disambiguation) now merged with the history of the page Moroccan: [28]

I think using the admin tools to force a "fait accomplit" on a simple user (me in this case) constitutes a serious misuse of admin tools and I want a proper action to be taken and the page

There is no forcing involved, you can still continue to impose your opinion as you did before. But instead I direct everyone to the fine explanation at Talk:Moroccan. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Regardless you shouldn't use admin tools while involved in content disputes,

talk

) 17:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

You can't restore (unmerge) it but you can trivially move it over there, with zero loss of functionality. Overall I'm at a loss for words over your blatant

WP:DISRUPTIVE, sigh. --Joy [shallot] (talk

) 18:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• This seems like a fairly clear case of
  WP:INVOLVED and a violation of use of the admin tools. The admin actions should be undone, while discussion is still continuing. Silverseren^C
  18:20, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree.
    talk
    ) 18:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • How exactly did I use admin tools to gain an advantage over the non-administrator user? What advantage did I gain? Because, I honestly don't see any - I did not prevent them from doing anything they want, apparently I only enabled them to complain here, which seems... disadvantageous. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:01, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
    • You used admin tools to delete and then move another page to the deleted title, while in a disagreement with another user over the title and the disambiguation page. It seems pretty obvious. Silverseren^C 19:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
    • (
      talk
      ) 19:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Er, what? Of course he can undo my changes, he can move the disambiguation page back to its old location and create the same redirect again. Nothing I did prevents him from doing that. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
        • Can plain editors do
          talk
          ) 19:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
          • Like I said before, yes, that's a procedure they can't do on their own, but I fail to see the observable benefit to me / harm to them from that history merge that prejudices the content dispute and constitutes an admin tool abuse. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
            • After I've read the talk page discussion, I agree that the complaint about the histmerge is of marginal concern. The main dispute is about the page move. As with such controversial moves, it should probably be undone and a {{
              talk
              ) 20:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)