Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1043

Should we continue to brainstorm about that? What do participants think? El_C 13:31, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Just my $0.02: in my opinion there is nothing wrong with supporting either side of a particular controversy, and undoubtedly this stance would affect editing. What a good editor needs, therefore, is the ability to balance out the sides and write as neutrally as possible. If neutral writing is difficult, then it is okay to insert a stance into an article — provided both stances are treated like a

WP:FRINGE theory. The neutral side of things are preferred, but information supporting either side of an argument may be inserted as long as the amount is minimal — certainly not whitewashing like the previous user. Eumat114 (Message

) 04:28, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't you mean whiteshirting? Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

No pun intended. But in sections with bias expected (e.g. nomenclature), I believe that adding a statement that "SCMP calls the protesters 'black-clad radicals'" is not a problem, but "the black-clad radicals disrupt..." is not okay (

NPOV). As per the stats issue, this state news claiming 3mil people signed a petition in support of the bill may be expressed as "state media Xinhua states that 3 million people signed...but this is disagreed by..." Thanks. Eumat114 (Message

) 07:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd think yes, but only if a constant stream of these issues can be shown to occur in the topic area. A few users who can be dealt with at ANI isn't enough for sanctions imo, and preventative sanctions aren't appropriate. I'd be interested to hear what editors and admins active in the topic area think. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 08:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

To summarise, I believe the main two ideas given above for the scope of a China-Taiwan-HK general sanctions were: we can do it wide (modern history) or narrow (contemporaneous) [...] As for what counts as modern history, I would cap it at the 20th Century, myself and a narrower post-19xx politics or governmental relationships that are within, between, or involving one or more of Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:06, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I would be supportive of broad China-HK-Taiwan general sanctions. I am mainly active on Hong Kong-related articles and have observed a chronic problem of

2019, 2020). I think a broader temporal scope would be more effective (20th/21st century). Citobun (talk

) 11:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree to general sanctions as suggested by Citobun. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that the problems of SPAs will not disappear at any rate. The skills I mentioned to neutralize a biased opinion just does not come without months (at least) of working neutrally, which is obviously not going to be seen in the politico-SPAs. But it is precisely these skill sets that makes an encyclopedic article on a political figure possible. I concur with Citobun on the scope of the sanctions. Eumat114 (Message) 11:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – Discretionary sanctions are not really the best way to deal with SPAs, which can be taken care of without such a sweeping use a force, and are easily identifiable. They function better when dealing with established editors. I would be extremely wary of applying community DS to such a wide topic area. For instance, I spent a lot of time writing articles like Northern Expedition. These could easily construed by some people to be within the scope of the sanctions, by their relation to conflict between the KMT and the CPC, despite the fact that they have never been subject to disruption, and fall well outside whatever the area of conflict is here. Please be very careful. DS are not something meant to be imposed lightly...and they work best when they are applied to a very specific topic area. If Hong Kong is an issue, perhaps consider DS for the Hong Kong dispute...but China-Taiwan-HK? I don't think so. RGloucester — ☎ 13:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I envisioned this proposal as one for community-authorised discretionary sanctions, which is why I opposed it. I would be more open to the idea of something like the

WP:GS/IPAK restriction, but only narrowly applied to disputes over the status of Hong Kong or Taiwan in a strictly contemporary (1990s–present) context. RGloucester — ☎

14:32, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• This Reddit.com/r/sino thread from June 2019 recruiting editors is quite interesting: One way you can help China’s image is to make small edits to Wikipedia‘s China-related pages, which are full of outdated and negative information. The anti-China freaks take stats from the 1990s and make it sound like it’s true now. & DON’T FIGHT REVERTS. Instead, accept the revert and continue contributing and correcting bias. Even if they revert 50%, the other 50% remains, and you become seen as a positive pro-China contributor who’s easy to work with. --Pudeo (talk) 14:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  That further justifies a GS here. Eumat114 (Message) 15:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Not really...articles across Wikipedia are subject to similar forms of promotional editing on a daily basis, but they are not all subject to discretionary sanctions. One I can think of is the infamous Frankfurt School page. As I said above, it really is important to be careful about painting large portions of the encylopaedia with a broad brush, especially considering the very specific nature of the dispute there. A narrower, more specific restriction may well be warranted, but all China-related articles from 1900 to present is a bit too much...too much to even police, at that. RGloucester — ☎ 15:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment If we are applying a general sanctions proposal, we might as well add in Macau to the scope (so it becomes China-Taiwan-Hong Kong-Macau). Background history and situations are similar enough that these types of astroturfing will spill over to Macau pages if we don't include it. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 14:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

  OhanaUnited, the situation of Macau is so different from that of HK, and judging from the political point of view I can't see Macau being included as a target of whitewashing. Eumat114 (Message) 14:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Since

• In just the last two days, he quickly followed my edits on Boston University Central station, edit-warred with Qwirkle and I there, made a personal attack, made the same disputed edits on Central station (MBTA) shortly after I made unrelated edits there, pinged me despite my explicit instructions not to, and followed me to an article he's never edited before just an hour after my edit. Despite me telling him Do not ever post on my talk page or ping me again unless you are explicitly required to - which I know he saw - he again posted on my user talk page a few days ago.
• This following behaior has gone on for months, with him making either capitalization changes that he's well aware I disagree with, or trivial changes to commas or dashes. Typical examples include Nubian station (not even two minutes after my edit), J Church, and Park Street station (three times, all lagging my edits by a few days). The majority of these are on articles related to the
  MBTA (and New England transportation generally) or Muni Metro. I have contributed heavily for years on both subjects, and on almost every of these articles I have made significant expansions prior to his involvement. He has made only style edits in these topic areas, with a notable increase within the past three months. I have warned him
  of both the following and the disruptive nature of his edits, so he is well aware that I believe he is following me.
• He commented multiple times at two ANI threads posted on my talk page (neither remotely related to him): to defend an editor who insulted me, and to offer advice to a sockpuppet angry that I brought them to SPI. He also followed Qwirkle to a completely unrelated ANEW report, and complained about both of us there.
• Immediately after I reverted his decapitalizations of "Central Subway", he created what I consider to be a blatant POV fork (completely duplicating existing information on the Green Line and Tremont Street subway articles) to legitimize his decapitalization. It's the only content addition whatsoever that he's done in MBTA-related articles.
• Less than 15 minutes after I converted that article into a redirect, he made undiscussed moves of Canal Street incline and Pleasant Street incline. (Making undiscussed controversial moves is a behavior that he has engaged in for years, despite multiple ANI threads about it.) This is part of a pattern of using moves as retaliation: he also opened an RM of an article I'd just created immediately after I filed that May ANI, and requested a technical move of MBTA bus hours after we clashed about capitalization on Green Line E branch and other articles. These disruptive moves are also based on his preferred lowercase style rather than actual research: he didn't do even a basic search before that RM, and his recent requested technical move of MBTA boat (which he claimed was based on sources) indicates that he didn't look at the sources, which overwhelmingly use "ferry" and not "boat".
• Twelve hours after I majorly expanded an article and nominated it for GA, he moved it. This article is completely outside my usual subject areas, an article that he'd never edited before, and the only such move (along with a second river of the same name) he made that day; I can't imagine him finding it other than by following my contributions.
• Two hours after I completed my initial version of Ipswich Street line and nominated it for GA, he made a cosmetic edit with an atypical edit summary. (He doesn't seem to have used "'n'" as a word separator in any other summaries). While he'd edited the article with a semi-automated tool while it was under construction, it seems a bit unlikely that he would have watchlisted it, and the unusual edit summary seems to imply 'I'm watching you'.
• On Commons, he casually mentioned checking the timestamps of my photos to see how close he was to encountering me in person.

I believe both a one-way I-ban and a topic ban from MBTA articles are necessary to stop this months-long pattern of harassment and disruptive editing, which has made me feel targeted and anxious, and constantly interferes with my editing. Given that his sole content addition in that topic area is a single stub article – every other one of hundreds of edits is a cosmetic tweak or disputed capitalization change – such a topic ban would not be interfering with actual content additions. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Dunno one way or the other what the best remedy is, but the description of behavior seems fairly accurate. Qwirkle (talk) 03:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Do not ever post on my talk page or ping me again unless you are explicitly required to

Is banning users from your talk page a thing here? While I would agree that if it gets disruptive (which becomes far more likely if someone has been told they're not welcome), I don't think banning another user from a talk page is an option. (unless an IBAN has been issued) Though you can certainly tell anyone they're not welcome.

While he'd edited the article with a semi-automated tool while it was under construction, it seems a bit unlikely that he would have watchlisted it, and the unusual edit summary seems to imply 'I'm watching you'.

This seems maybe a bit far-fetched. I have accidentally watchlisted thousands of pages because of tools. I don't see "case'n'space'n'dash" as a threat. Maybe Dicklyon's semi-automated tool wasn't working well for the article so he made a less automated edit and entered a jolly edit summary. Be careful not to read threats in edits that really aren't threats.

He commented multiple times at two ANI threads posted on my talk page (neither remotely related to him): to defend an editor who insulted me, and to offer advice to a sockpuppet angry that I brought them to SPI. He also followed Qwirkle to a completely unrelated ANEW report, and complained about both of us there.

I see absolutely nothing objectionable in the content of the first two links and little more than some annoyance in the third, which isn't actionable unless it's 1984.

On Commons, he casually mentioned checking the timestamps of my photos to see how close he was to encountering me in person.

15 July 2020 Krd deleted page File talk:Berryessa station artwork LIFE!.jpg (Ophaned talk page)

Besides being on Commons which makes it utterly irrelevant here unless it's part of a pattern that involves enwiki, which I'm not convinced of: the comment in question can't even be read, so unless you or another Commons admin undeletes the page, we can do nothing but assume good faith.

Dicklyon is quite an active editor, so it's likely inevitable that you'll cross paths here and there. Besides, if one sees a familiar username pop up in Special:Recentchanges or their watchlist, they are more likely to get involved. As an example, I have this page watchlisted because I edit it sometimes. I saw BorkNein's edit on my watchlist with "New section: Guy Macon". I've heard of Guy Macon, so I took a look. And right above that report was this report, which is why I'm now here. - Alexis Jazz 05:08, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOBAN, If an editor asks you not to edit their user pages, such requests should, within reason, be respected. The community has generally accepted that as the ability to ban users from your talkpage, and posting on someone's talkpage after such a request (in the absence of placing a required notification) is usually deemed disruptive and inappropriate. Grandpallama (talk

) 13:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@Grandpallama: Thanks. Though the next line in that guideline is However, editors should not make such requests lightly, especially concerning their talk pages, as doing so can impede the ordinary communication which is important for the improvement and smooth running of the project. I think in general it is like I said: you can't ban anyone from your talk page, but if you signal that someone is not welcome, anything they do post on your user talk is much more likely to be considered disruptive. - Alexis Jazz 14:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

There are editors who share your view about the wording of the policy, but in practice, the community has consistently endorsed an interpretation that you are allowed to ban someone from your talkpage. Doing so repeatedly to numerous editors, to avoid criticism or over basic reminders/warnings, though, has also consistently resulted in smacks on the nose. Grandpallama (talk) 14:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

When I posted this on Pi's talk page, I had forgotten about his request to never post there or ping him unless required to. I was thinking it would be better to talk than to try to argue it out in revert edit summaries, which is where he was. I'd say if he doesn't want to hear from me, he should not say nonsense to me that needs a response. Dicklyon (talk) 18:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I've done my best to be civil with Pi and Qwirkle, over-capitalizers who like to revert my edits that conform with

I, for one, have no problem discussing something on an article’s talk page. Why Dicklyon instead prefers to put himself on a user’s talk page I will leave as an exercise for the reader. Qwirkle (talk) 13:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

On the downcasing of "incline" and "portal", I think I had zero pushback from anybody on those, before or after the 2 page moves he mentions. So why is that coming up now? If I do something that's wrong, tell me. But sources say these ones are not wrong. Same with

While on these things, I downcased "Tunnel" in State Route 99 tunnel. An editor objected and reverted, so we had an RM discussion; with no editors objecting there, it passed, and no problems remain. In MBTA articles, even after reaching consensus in RM discussions on "branch" and some other things, I continued to get a fight from Pi and Qwirkle in implementing the changes. I've also moved about a hundred other rail and station articles in the last month or so, mostly in India, Sweden, UK, and Vietnam, very few related to Pi, and with essentially zero pushback since the reasons for the moves are generally accepted and uncontroversial. It's what I do. That and rivers, and uploading and placing photos, where I also get mostly zero pushback. I think I've actually made a lot of great contributions recently; even a few new articles; only in the MBTA space am I running into strange pushback against implementing consensus style. Dicklyon (talk) 07:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Generally public works above a certain scale tend to be named, not merely desribed, with the name of the thing capitalized like any other proper-named thing. It isn’t

Brooklyn bridge, or Pennsylvania station, not even on Wiki. Qwirkle (talk

) 14:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Generally, that's not WP's approach, per

MOS:CAPS. Yes, some tunnels have proper names; the State Route 99 tunnel is a big public work that does not; maybe some day they'll name it. Dicklyon (talk

) 16:50, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I've just reread

WP:HOUNDING to see if anything I've been doing could be what it describes there. I don't see it. The only place my edits interfere with Pi or his enjoyment is where he's fighting for over-capitalization. The fact that I edited a few other articles that he edited should not have much affect on him, especially if they are edits that are unrelated to his, and that he has no objection to. If he's paranoid, it's not I who made him so. The dynamic that needs to be fixed is his sneaky way of working around case conventions by burying over-capitalization deep in template/module data, and running to AN/I instead of engaging sensibly in discussion about the disagreement. Dicklyon (talk

) 16:50, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I particularly seek more input at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Capping_of_bus_stops_at_rail_stations. It is my intention to continue to fix the overcapitalization of bus route descriptions from Pi's June 26 and 27 edits, across many MBTA station articles. If someone sees a reason to not fix those, speak up. Dicklyon (talk) 18:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Reviewing Pi's opening complaint, I'm bewildered also about these claims:

• disruptive and controversial page moves and capitalization changes – where? which move might be considered disruptive? or controversial? what cap changes might be considered disruptive? or controversial even?
• other seemingly retaliatory behavior against myself and Qwirkle – what? I have nothing to retaliate for. I even had an extensive good collaboration with Qwirkle at Artillery wheel during this period. And I thought I had a friendly interaction with Pi when noticing the we both visited the new BART station on opening day to take pictures. I do wish they'd stop defending over-capitalization, but that's nothing that would provoke retaliation of any sort. Dicklyon (talk) 19:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
  • ”O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us....” Qwirkle (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

On sins of omission, guilty as charged. Probably I should have noticed that

There in a nutshell is the crux of of the problem. Got a dispute that has gotten this far, but is unable to see any possibilities except that others are wrong. Qwirkle (talk) 22:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

And completely refuses to acknowledge, much less apologize for, the hounding that I described in my original post. That harassment is why we are here. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 04:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

You simply assume bad faith. As usual. - Alexis Jazz 11:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I ran some quick numbers, but without more reference points they are not very meaningful. 2% of the pages that Dicklyon has edited in the past three months have also been edited by Pi. 3% of the pages Mjdestroyerofworlds (otherwise unrelated, I was just trying out some users with possible overlapping interests) has edited have also been edited by Pi. So in conclusion Mjdestroyerofworlds is 50% more likely to be hounding Pi than Dicklyon. Lies, damned lies, and statistics of course, but maybe patterns will emerge if I try more users. Any suggestions for other users with similar interests? - Alexis Jazz 00:43, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Shockingly, users with common interests edit the same articles! The problem is not editing the same articles; Mj and I get along just fine, with our edits building off each others'. The problem is that Dicklyon follows my editing across multiple subjects in a manner that cannot be coincidental, moves articles as retaliation for disagreeing, makes repetitive edits that he's aware I consider unconstructive as the majority of his edits in my usual subject areas, and pretends to be unaware that all of this would bother any reasonable editor. That's harassment, and it's unacceptable, regardless of your previous grudge against me. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 04:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

The human brain is really good at seeing connections, even where there are none. With the edit volumes of the both of you, combined with common interests, you are bound to run into each other. Dicklyon's edit volume is considerably higher than yours, but your edits are, on the face of it, more substantial (I notice some copy pasting though, but that doesn't matter for the subject at hand) where Dicklyon does more small fixes. Neither is better or worse, but this guarantees that Dicklyon will often edit an article after you did. (or any other editor who adds substantial amounts of text) Because those substantial edits both cause the article to appear in searches for articles that could be improved as well as recent changes. The OP may just be a case of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, fallacy of the single cause and jumping to conclusions.

regardless of your previous grudge against me.

Is that where we are? You threatened me, falsely accused me of "treating anyone you disagree with as an adversary" and called Tuválkin, a respected editor, a "perpetual mess-maker". You said that I "antagonize anyone with a mop", so tell me, how come there are half a dozen admins (not to mention other users) who have been willing to make edits in my place without me even asking? Never mind your accusation that I "advocate for the worst blocked users" (which is false anyway), because some opinions must be suppressed, in particular those you don't agree with.

It is you who is holding a grudge. More than one, in fact. Which raises the question if Dicklyon could be one of them. - Alexis Jazz 11:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

non-admin comment To show hounding, try making a table, listing locations with a history link, sample timestamp of your edits, then time stamp of the claimed "following" by the other party. Also would help to have a fourth column showing all contribs of the other party at that location. Then anyone interested could quickly review the evidence for you complaint of hounding, without having to wade through the saga and do all that thinking and analysis for you. I did look at the diff for the claimed personal attack in the first bulleted point in the opening post, and that does seem excessively snarky at best and intentionally insulting at worst. If you can show (visually) the pattern of following by organizing the complain this way, you may have better luck generating an appropriate response.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk

) 09:14, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

non-admin comment I commend NewsandEventsGuy for his suggestion on presentation—one likely to produce light rather than heat. I'd like to add a comment on crusading for Capitalization conformity. If a particular editor evinces strong disagreementwit your edit, there are thousands of Capitalized words on Wikipedia that may or my not require rectification. My suggestion to Dicklyon is to chose articles that Pi.1415926535 is not revising. This, to me, seems to have a great advantage for you, Dicklyon. Your work will more quickly advance and can win over editors who might agree with you. Engaging those who strongly disagree is perhaps not the best approach. When an editor begins to ready an article for GA review is not the best time for making minor changes which could best wait for the actual review. Being sensitive to other editors—e.g. discussion on article pages—oils the waters, so to speak, for very little effort. — Neonorange (Phil) 18:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I take them where I find them, and the rail space has long been a source of full employment for me. The MBTA corner of WP is a rich lode of over-capitalization, spaced hyphens, missing commas, and other common easy-to-fix non-controversial gnoming work to do. Pi doesn't object to most of my edits, it seems, but does love his caps in a few places. We've got "Bus" capped inappropriately in at least 100 articles still, so I'm working on that. He does not appear to object (how could he?). Should I avoid those just because MBTA is his turf? Dicklyon (talk) 23:34, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

My two cents...... in your heart of hearts, you know whether you're doing gnome work as it comes along, or whether you follow someone else to bugger them. If you're just doing good faith work as it comes along then carry on.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk

) 00:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

So, here you are, once again at ANI over something, and you are still convinced it’s “uncontroversial”. Kewl. Qwirkle (talk) 01:39, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

If any of the edits under discussion were controversial, in your opinion, say which ones. Or revert and we can discuss, as I've been trying to do on the "Station" downcasing that you and Pi reverted in a few places, but you keep avoiding the discussions after you revert. Pretty much all of what Pi is complaining about here are uncontroversial edits, are they not? Dicklyon (talk) 05:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Any of those reverted are obviously controversial. Any made at a bot-like rate, where the possibility that any actual research was done behind it is low are controversial.

avoiding the discussions after you revert.Nonsense. The fact that people find you unwelcome on their talk pages doesn’t mean they are avoiding discussion, it means you are attempting it in the wrong place, twice over. Qwirkle (talk) 14:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion about recent reverts is still open at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Capping_of_bus_stops_at_rail_stations. The only thing you've said there is that you're not refusing to discuss. Pi has declined to respond to the ping there (and I recalled later he had asked me never to ping him, so he basically declined in advance to discuss). Dicklyon (talk) 18:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

So far the “discussion”, if it can be dignified as such, appears to be mere assertion.

That aside, the simple fact of disagreement makes something controversial, despite your belief -right, wrong, or debatable- that is should not be. Qwirkle (talk) 13:57, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Finding no reasonable objections, I'm going ahead and fixing case and dashes in the hundred or so articles that link to

I find it very uncomfortable to be expected to respond in numerous places to someone who I feel is harassing me. Do not take a lack of immediate response for assent, especially given that I have repeatedly objected to this and other capitalization changes that I believe are incorrect. You have not produced any evidence that the capitalized names are not the official names (ie proper names). But that is merely a distraction from the real issue of your behavior. Responding to an ANI thread about hounding and repeated disputed edits by substantially increasing the rate of those disputed edits (including making additional un-discussed controversial moves) is incredibly hostile and un-collaborative behavior. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that reporting someone based on your gut feeling, not responding to replies from multiple editors who suggest you should come up with something better and not withdrawing the request either, that's a textbook example of non-hostile and collaborative behavior? - Alexis Jazz 09:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Pi, the caps discussion is the one I've linked for you in a few places. Re "additional un-discussed controversial moves", there's no such thing. The only recent move I made in your space was Friday, lowercasing carhouse in North Cambridge carhouse since it's not capped in sources (your favorite specialist fan book by Bradley Clarke shows up there without a preview; looking at page 119 I find "North Cambridge caryard" and "a former carhouse"; that's all). Are you suggesting that this one constitutes "additional un-discussed controversial moves"? I can't see how it's controversial to lowercase things seldom capped in sources, but I acknowledge that you do often argue for that, even when there's no credible case for capping, as here. Dicklyon (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

This seems like a pretty clear case of hounding to me, based on the evidence Pi has presented. Whether or not the MBTA-related articles ought to be lowercased is a somewhat tangential discussion, and is probably one that ought to be discussed more formally than just between Dicklyon/Pi/Qwirkle. I would suggest Dicklyon avoid making these changes to MBTA articles until such a discussion concludes, and to stop following Pi's editing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:30, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion is at the more general place

WT:MOSCAPS – where still no input from Pi. And yes I did stop when someone reverted me, and I invited that other editor to that discussion. Previously, discussion there had stopped with nobody objecting, so I had restarted. And his is not related to following Pi around, though he was involved in some of that overcapping enforced by template back in June, as discussed there before his hounding accusation. Dicklyon (talk

) 16:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

GorillaWarfare, I'm undecided if this is hounding or a case of Pi.1415926535 making edits contrary to MOS, that Dicklyon is correcting. Nobody likes having their edits reverted and Iit can feel like harrassment sometimes. However a neutral venue like Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Capping_of_bus_stops_at_rail_stations, a thread which Dicklyon started and others are watching, is a good opportunity to reach consensus on capitalization. I encourage Pi.1415926535 to participate.—Bagumba (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dicklyon and Bagumba: That's great that there's a discussion open, and I too would recommend Pi engage there, though I think the best outcome will be if third parties (outside of Dicklyon, Pi, Qwirkle, and anyone else who's been involved in these ongoing conflicts over MBTA-related de/capitalization) join that discussion so it is not primarily those who have clearly not agreed on the subject in the past. It is also clear from Pi's comments above that he would rather avoid a continued direct conflict with Dicklyon over this, and so third party mediators/commentators might help that. I am not active in maintaining the MoS or in public transit editing so I don't have much to suggest, but perhaps this discussion will help bring more eyes to it. A formal RfC or similar might also get more uninvolved parties to weigh in.

I would also encourage Dicklyon to avoid making changes to Pi's work (which does appear to be targeted specifically towards Pi—whether because Dicklyon believes he is merely reverting a serial MoS-violator or for other reasons) until discussion has resolved.

I would also encourage Dicklyon to be considerably more patient—I see over at WT:MOSCAPS he has suggested With Pi not responding to ping here, and Qwirkle declining to discuss, maybe we can just get back to following MOS:CAPS over their objections. after only 24 hours had elapsed in that discussion, a period during which Pi had not been actively editing. A similar statement was made above (Finding no reasonable objections, I'm going ahead and fixing case and dashes in the hundred or so articles that link to

MBTA Bus.), after this conversation had only been open a few days. It would be best to allow these conversations to run their course and to allow outside parties to weigh in before continuing the changes that are clearly not agreed upon between Dicklyon and Pi, and clearly upsetting to Pi. Not everyone edits round-the-clock, or even daily, especially if they are feeling frustrated or anxious because of ongoing conflict. The wiki is not going to go up in flames even if pages are incorrectly capitalized for a little bit. GorillaWarfare (talk)

18:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm holding off pending comments on the discussion. I did about a hundred edits in other areas today. And yes, I do get impatient when an editor that needs to be discussing tells me not to talk to him or ping him. And with Qwirkle, who tends to make elliptic and cryptic comments instead of explaining his points in English. Dicklyon (talk) 07:14, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The idea that Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style is a neutral venue beggars description. Qwirkle (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:AGF. At any rate, feel free to offer better alternatives.—Bagumba (talk

) 01:39, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

That does not make it neutral ground, but, rather, a battleground. In fact, there as elsewhere, the loyal opposition sometimes throws one of their own under the juggernaut to gain points for later. Qwirkle (talk) 01:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there a place you think might be less of a battleground? An article talk page seems like a poor choice since this would affect multiple articles, but maybe some other discussion board that everyone could agree on? GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Nope. But let’s not pretend it isn’t that.

Obviously, this is a wide-ranging problem, and fixing it page by page would be difficult, but a big part of it is a single person’s inability to see that their edits are contentious, that their “fixes” often create new, worse errors, and that they at least border on harassment. That part of it belongs right here, doesn't it? Qwirkle (talk) 15:28, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@Qwirkle: Behavioral issues belong here, yes. But a major part of the hounding issue appears to me to be that there has yet to be a formal decision on how this group of articles should be cased, and until then the two sides each think they are editing articles to correct the other's errors. We could tell both parties not to interact, but that doesn't resolve the underlying issue of how to case the articles. If a consensus can be reached around how the articles should be cased, then ideally the articles could be adjusted once and for all, and the parties can get on with their respective editing interests without interacting. That's why I'm trying to find a venue that might be acceptable to everyone where this decision could be made -- Dicklyon has suggested VPP below, does that seem reasonable to you and Pi.1415926535? GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk

) 10:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

It seems to me that there are two issues up for debate that Dicklyon and I have clashed on: One, are the titles of MBTA bus routes considered proper nouns (and thus capitalized as they are on the MBTA website) or are they purely descriptive and thus sentence case?, which is a pretty simple yes/no. Two, are the names of some pieces of MBTA infrastructure considered proper nouns or purely descriptive? That question is much more based on a deep delve into what style sources use and which sources are considered authoritative. I also feel much more strongly about it because it affects article titles, and because I am using those sources daily. Dicklyon, I would be willing to concede the first iff you concede the second, which would allow this dispute to effectively end immediately. But if you would prefer to have the wider discussion, then VPP seems like a reasonable venue. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not clear to me which are the "pieces of MBTA infrastructure considered proper nouns" that you want me to concede. Can you clarify? Dicklyon (talk) 21:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I created a list here as a starting point. All are consistently capitalized by the MBTA and/or BSRA, and in a majority of modern independent reliable sources with substantial coverage. If you object to individual items (those with past RMs, for example, which I've separated out) I'm willing to punt them to a later discussion for the sake of a general agreement now. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 01:19, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think I could get into such a deal. Five of those are lowercase by consensus of RM discussions, so not up to me to concede. Most of the rest I haven't looked at. Generally, I can't think of BSRA, a rather specialist rail-fan org, as representing general sources. I can start looking into the others if you like, but it's a long list and seems unlikely. For example, you suggest "Red-Blue Connector", but I've already lowercased "connector" in lots of places, since sources seldom cap it; so why would we? Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

In any case, the place to discuss such things is the open discussion at

WT:MOSCAPS#Capping of bus stops at rail stations. Dicklyon (talk

) 14:46, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes. ANI is not a content-discussion venue, not even for discussions of the application of guidelines to article content, or discussion of the content of the guidelines themselves. Next, WP doesn't do quid pro quo deal-making. We write and title things [reasonably] consistently, following written-out guidelines and policies.

WP:NCCAPS for a reason. If we let every gaggle of specialists capitalize on Wikipedia what they like to capitalize in specialist-to-specialist writing, then nearly everything on WP would be capitalized; almost everything is the subject of some specialization or special interest somewhere.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢

 😼  05:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:VPP is a good central place for getting a broad cross-section of people who care about policies and guidelines. Dicklyon (talk

) 03:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

dispute resolution channels.—Bagumba (talk

) 03:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

• Disclosure: I am a wikifriend of Dicklyon's. I believe Quirkle and one or two others here have been acting in bad faith. And just a small matter: at least one major railways wikiproject long ago insisted on downcasing "station". It's not radical, and it concurs with CMOS, Oxford, and our own style guide, which say to minimise unnecessary capping. Dicklyon is one of our most valuable editors. Tony (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Quirkle and one or two others here have been acting in bad faith. I was wondering if you’d care to back this somehow, or if it just muddying the waters for your friend. Qwirkle (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• And I forgot to say: Pi.1415926535, if you feel "targeted and anxious", there are WPians who are good listeners and consultants on difficult situations—I can recommend privately if you want. But on the critical side, really, are you serious in proposing that capping be turned into a tradeable commodity, so you might "swap" by allowing Dicklyon the downcasing of "station" in exchange for allowing you lots of caps? That would be to reduce WP to a loud horse-trading market place in the street. Fortunately it doesn't work like that. Tony (talk) 05:52, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Dicklyon's confrontational attitude - including making disputed moves despite policy explicitly requiring RMs in such cases, using a false rationale for a technical move request, edit-warring with half a dozen different editors, following me to unrelated articles, using a slur against myself and others over the amount of documentation of a template, and opening discussions about one issue in four separate locations - is disruptive regardless of which capitalization style is preferable. He has not acknowledged, apologized for, nor shown evidence of changing any of these behaviors. Regardless of your friendship or your style preference, how can you condone an editor acting in this manner? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm still really unclear on what you're accusing me of. Why can't we just discuss content issues instead? (And sorry you took offense at my inmates reference to a great book on software engineering issues). Dicklyon (talk) 03:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

That seemed rather clear; you are doing mass-changes that should require individual discussion. Do you dispute this? What did ANI say last time? Qwirkle (talk) 15:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

And there's one relevant open content discussion, where you still haven't said anything: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Capping_of_bus_stops_at_rail_stations. If you post again here before there, you certainly deserve some kind of boomerang, imho. Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Nonsense. This is about your habit of messing with articles you have never shown an interest in before based on who is editing them. While a wider view of the whole Manual of Style ...debacle?...cabal?...”cabalcle”, maybe?... would be a good thing, that isn’t the central point of this ANI filing. Qwirkle (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Consistently doing the same kind of cleanup of over-capitalization that Dicklyon does and has been doing for a very long time, with a very high success rate at
  WP:RM, does not magically transmogrify into "hounding" just because it happens to coincide with pages that someone is habitually over-capitalizing in. If someone is not following the style guides and the naming conventions, then their departures from them should be undone.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢
   😼  05:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks, S, but that's not exactly what he's complaining about in Hounding. Rather, it's that I made some edits, unrelated to his edits or to over-capitalization, but at articles that I probably noticed because he had just edited them. I shouldn't do that, and I did a couple of times; sorry. So that's the hounding complaint. The real dispute, however, is more like what you're talking about, and Pi so far refuses to discuss that except here at AN/I in his thread on Hounding. Like last time he wouldn't talk about our content dispute and brought an AN/I thread instead (not hounding, but a complaint about my long-past history). It's just a bizarre way to think that we can move forward. He "owns" the MBTA space (and has provided a ton of great content there!), and he and Qwirkle defend their caps fiercely, contrary to the general consensus of the rest of WP. Dicklyon (talk) 05:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

This would be what is generally called a lie. Compared to the bot-like, obviously near automatic editing DL has done, I have been involved in...what, three articles here?

For now, since it isn’t the subject of the ANI, I will pass over the question of whether DL’s mass change of other’s work is “fixing” anything at all. Qwirkle (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, myself and others have been the subject of this ranting personal attack and forum discussion. Editor

Well, aren't we all biased leftists? I mean, we insist that the encyclopedia relate to reality and not to ideological preconceptions, right? Isn't that socialism or liberalism or one of those evil "isms"? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, I reverted your removal. I won't claim I read every single word of it but I didn't find anything in violation of policy. You think something is in violation of policy please identify it specifically. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:04, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 22:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, Most editors have some bias. I do not support calling other editors biased, but reversion is not the appropriate step here. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:16, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 22:17, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, You inferred incorrectly. I'm a big fan of civility. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, FTR, I was responding while you were editing your comment, so my response was to your earlier version. I did just check to see if you attempted to discuss this with the editor before reverting and coming here. Not ideal. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:19, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 22:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:PERSONALATTACKS? Seriously? S Philbrick(Talk)

22:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 22:43, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 22:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, DO NOT BLAME ME for YOUR edits. As I tell my 2 year-old grandson, Take a deep breath and count to four. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, I recently posted something that someone else objected to. They politely let me know. While I'm not totally on board with their view, I understand their point, and struck through my comment. I think that's a good example of how things should happen. Had that editor simply decided to remove my comment because they believed it was an appropriate, the incident for the played out very differently. That how you chose to respond. Not my definition of "deal with it in a civil manner". S Philbrick(Talk) 22:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

talk

) 23:14, 20 July 2020 (UTC)