Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive73

Even though I'm an administrator, I wanted to see if other admins agreed with how I'm proposing to deal with

I'd go with one warning, and a block for any hate-speech after that. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a neo-Nazi troll more than anything else, considering his edits. One warning, and if refuted, indef-block. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 20:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I just posted the warning. We'll see what happens now. Thanks,--Alabamaboy 20:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I would have indef-blocked already based on edits such as this, but since he's extremely likely to violate the warning it may not matter much. Newyorkbrad 20:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I blocked briefly after seeing that second diff. That's really, really not a "get off with a warning"-level breach of our behaviour guidelines. Jkelly 21:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was tempted to block him immediately but he'd posted comments on some article talk pages I edit and I didn't want people to think I had a conflict of interest.--Alabamaboy 21:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I love this comment on his user page: "I am a supporter of the KKK, AWB and NAZI party and have been since I had an apifamy of sorts and acquired white, Christian, European pride." Apifamy? Sounds like some painful type of bowel blockage :-).--Alabamaboy 21:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Seriously? After comments like this one I would have expected an indefinite block, no questions asked. As a matter of fact... Can't sleep, clown will eat me 23:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

If there was any doubt before, that removes it; I hadn't gone back quite that far in the contribution history. Support indefinite. Newyorkbrad 23:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Support indef. That's a death threat, unambiguously. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 23:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, shouldn't

Jimbo hear about edits like this? RyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter}

23:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No. Newyorkbrad 23:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. I also missed that death threat back in the contributions list. Removes any doubt whatsoever.--Alabamaboy 00:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Indef, without regret. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 05:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's not a death threat, it's garden-variety inarticulate bigotry. I still support banning this fuckwit on the grounds that he has made it abundantly clear that he has no intention of abiding by policy, but we really must stop over-reacting to use of the word kill when there is no credible threat of harm. Personal soapbox, sorry. Guy (Help!) 10:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Ummm JzG, this is a death threat. "WE'LL KILL HIS WHOLE FAMILY.", how much more plain should it be? I agree that just the word kill does not make a death threat, however, when you use that word as a verb toward a person or group of people, with a statement of intent such as "We will", then yes it is a death threat. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think what Guy meant is that there's no credible threat of harm. If I start receving letters written with newspaper clippings from the KKK, that's a death threat. A dumb teenager with testosterone problems typing silly comments on a keyboard in his bedroom isn't, because there's no...well, threat. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be indefed, of course. yandman 15:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Right. It's like the drunk in the pub yelling "I'll kill you!" then falling flat on his arse because he's... well, drunk. It's the difference between a death threat (which the police would take seriously) and random inarticulate raving (which they would not). We block this one for irredeemable cluelessness and disruption, not for death threats. Guy (Help!) 18:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That is not the point of view I would take. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 02:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This discussion reminds me of the time an anonymous vandal posted some very silly death threats on my User Page. I chose to enshrine them for all to see and was roundly scolded by several admins for doing so. I tried to argue that these were not "real" death threats, just a bit of juvenile idiocy. Others disagreed.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 19:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

This user may be back as Rqquju (talk · contribs). Jkelly 03:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if that's not the aforementioned user, this one definitely needs a blocking. He's someone's sock, considering his first edits were to create a new neonazi userbox, and post an RfC. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 04:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Right, I just pushed his block up to indefinite. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 04:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That should be standard procedure for people who only wish to push hatred here. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 04:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

There is--they get blocked.--Alabamaboy 19:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I just want to call the attention to the fact that User:Highshines has started a massive page move campaign of articles relating to Chinese royalty. Thsi is completely uncalled for given the fact that Highshines has refrained from taking part in the discussion about how to normalize the names of Qing dynasty royalty on Talk:Xiao Xian Chun. An administrator needs to talk to Highshines soon, before he/she makes a complete mess of these pages. For evidence, please refer to Special:Contributions/Highshines.--Niohe 01:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:RM. I also removed text from the userpage that was a copyvio from Sparknotes. Teke ^(talk

) 02:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I warned that this would happen last week on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive72#User:_Niohe. I also want to alert other adminstrators to the fact that Highshines has been blocked for sock puppetry and disruptive page moves before, please refer to Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Highshines. In order to cover this up, Highshines has removed the sock puppeteer tag from his/her talk page and deleted warning messages from his/her talk page.

I don't have any administrative powers to undo this kind of massive disruptive edits. This will happen again, and I think it is time to block Highshines from editing these pages.--Niohe 03:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I am undoing the moves as they did not have any sort of consensus for the amount of renaming the user did. Teke ^(talk) 03:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

All moved back to where they were. That will prevent it from happening again, since my moves created redirects the user cannot move them back. RM would be for doing that. Teke ^(talk) 04:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you can "overwrite" an article if the only edit is creating a redirect, or at least I think I have seen that happening... -- ReyBrujo 04:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

True enough, I'm watching the pages. I was speaking in the context of moves :) Teke ^(talk) 04:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Go make some false edits (add some of thsoe "R from" templates) to prevent users from movewarring...I did that when a user kept moving Kitty Pryde to Shadowcat. Hbdragon88 09:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If anyone had any doubt what kind of editor Highshines is, please have a look at the following foul language posted to Jiang's user page (in Chinese) for four hours:

• [3]

I think Highshines has earned himself/herself a block by now.--Niohe 14:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know Chinese, would you mind providing a translation? Additionally, I'm not sure why the user made that post when I told him at the time that I was doing it to remove copyvios from Sparknotes. sigh Anyone other uninvolved third party care to dive in here? Teke ^(talk) 18:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it,

Niohe is both exaggerating and lying. All I have said was that the person who removed my user page (not Teke, but after him) must have had a bad upbringing. I can provide a verbatim translation: "To whomever deleted my userpage: The one who had performed stealthy actions on my userpage must have been forced to do bad and brutal things by his mother. Also, he must have been beaten badly by his father. Therefore, he was formed that way." At that time, I was really angry with Niohe because he had frequently vandalized my userpage and talkpages before. Highshines 20:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You know that is not an accurate translation. Don't even try.--Niohe 21:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It is an accurate translation. I can show it to every one word by word with a Chinese-English dictionary. My remark is clean, but your paraphase has added further sexual contents to it. What are you planning at, Niohe? Highshines 21:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, how would you translate "谁妈的逼" into plain English? Or "谁爸操了以后"? --Niohe 22:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole phrase "谁妈的逼" means "who has been forced by his mother to [do bad and brutal things]". The character "谁" means "whose", and the character "逼" is a verb which means to force someone to do something he/she is unwilling to do. In this case, I meant that someone so vandalic must have been "force by his mother [in his childhood] to do immoral things". I know it is a bit strong, but I already suffered enough from the vandalizations of my pages. Highshines 22:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

的 is a possesive prefix marking the noun following 的 to belong to the noun preceding it. You used 谁妈 which means "that person's mother" and 逼 therefore is a noun, and the only meaning of 逼 as a noun is an obscene reference to female genitalia. -- 我♥中國 22:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely wrong about "the only meaning of 逼 as a noun is an obscene reference to female genitalia.". I have never heard of that. Instead, 逼 also means "forcing someone" when used as a noun. Highshines 22:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Really? A 造句 quiz then: make a sentence where "逼" is used as a noun meaning "forcing someone". (There are no

gerunds in Chinese!) -- 我♥中國

22:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If you say your user page was vandalized, can you provide diff histories showing the vandalism? -- 我♥中國 22:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Highshines has also started to use threatening language, as evidenced by his comment to my my talk page. If the above profanity won't earn Highshines a block for abusive behavior I don't know what will.--Niohe 20:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Niohe, if you were the one who removed my userpage, you better explain why. If you didn't, then why do you have to feel being "threatened"? Highshines 20:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Teke did it, as he said: [4]. 146.186.221.141 21:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If I wronged you this time, Niohe, please accept my apology. However, if you have been kind to my pages before, I wouldn't have been so mad at you. Highshines 21:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Apology for what? For including me in your rant or for calling me a liar when I paraphrased your profane remarks? --Niohe 21:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you don't want to accept it, that's fine to me. I was trying a apologize for a possible mistaking you as the remover of my page. However, I don't think my remarks have any profane element. Instead, your paraphrase only produced exaggerations and lies. Highshines 21:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. First, you apologize and then you call me a liar.--Niohe 22:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Highshines, I will provide a word-for-word translation then.

谁[whoever]对[to]我[my]个人[personal]网页[website]动了[did]手脚[hand-foot, meaning "sneaky action"], - whoever messed around with/did sneaky things to my personal website

谁[whoever]妈[mom]的['s]逼[vagina]又[also]烂[rotten]又[also]搔[slutty]又[also]臭[stink], - [that person's] mother's vagina is rotten and slutty and stinky

所以[therefore]叫[ask]谁[whoever's]爸[dad]操[fuck]了[ed]以后[after]才[then]把[gave]谁[whoever]给[gave]生[birth]出来[out]了[action completion particle]. -so that person's dad fucked her then gave birth to that person

So don't even think about lying. There are plenty of people who know Chinese here

-- 我♥中國 22:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That translation is correct.. mm. I might say that 手脚/hand-foot might mean "stealthy" or "hidden". Other than that, yes. Highshine's "translation" was a complete lie.--Elaragirl^Talk|Count 06:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of comments

Highshines has now removed another editor's comment twice (1, 2), apparently because it provides a translation of his incivil comments in another language. I suggest that this, along with his previous history of disruptive action detailed above and his use of sockpuppets merits a block; I request input before I implement this. —bbatsell ¿? 22:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked her for 2 weeks. -- 我♥中國 22:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the block is appropriate, the fact that Highshines has already removed your comments from her user page does not reflect well on her either. Given past experience, we may expect a wave of sock puppetry from Highshines in the next couple of days.--Niohe 22:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I just restored your comments on Highshines talk page, I felt that was appropriate given what has happened.--Niohe 23:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Highshines blanked the block message 3 times so I have protected her page as well. I don't know of any precedent with this so in this case I did what I think is the most convenient thing to do. I realise that non-admins would not be able to edit this page but I don't know if semiprotection prevents blocked users from editing their own talk pages. -- 我♥中國 04:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems appropriate if the block message is getting blanked, with semi they can still edit the page. Lift the protection when the block expires, and it's all good. Teke ^(talk) 01:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I find

• From
  WP:USER#What can I not have on my user page?: Games, roleplaying sessions, and other things pertaining to "entertainment" rather than "writing an encyclopedia," particularly if they involve people who are not active participants in the project probably works well enough, even though it doesn't mention subpages specifically. WarpstarRider
  07:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too...(that's why I bolded the word game). But where do I take my concern from here? Is there a proper location to officially report this?

Jerry lavoie

07:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Try

WP:MFD. WarpstarRider

07:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Daniel.Bryant

09:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You guys are so very responsive! Thanks. I think this section can be archived now.

Jerry lavoie

16:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're impressed with that, try this--a bot archives everything here automatically.  :)

Chick Bowen

05:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. 69.92.252.140 14:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Everything is all set. Thank you for addressing your concern! All I had to do was reupload the unvaldalized version in order to fix it.

(t)

  14:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

For future reference, clicking the little (rev) link at the version you want to revert to is easier. —Cryptic 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

What little rev link? Are you sure that isn't a custom js addon you have? Prodego ^talk 15:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I thought only admins had that function. That makes sense now. Thanks. I didn't even realize that that link was there for non-admins! _└

talk

^┐  15:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's there for all autoconfirmed users (note that IPs like the original poster in this section can't do it). Prodego: Look at Image:Flag of the Olympic Movement.svg for an example, and scroll down to the revisions. It appears like this: (del) (rev) 09:41, January 20, 2006 . . Denelson83 (Talk | contribs) . . 768×512 (9,584 bytes) (Created by User:Denelson83 in Inkscape, based on the Olympic flag image at the [http://www.flags.net/OLYM.htm World Flag Database]. {| style="background: #FDB; border: 1px solid #C60;" |- style="vertical-align: middle;" | style="line-height: 75%;). --Rory096 20:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

    Yup, I'm a fairly new user.  That being said, while it may bar me from a level of familiarity
    with certain practices and workings, it certainly doesn't mean
    I have to act like a new user.
    Also, I don't usually fill out user pages due to laziness.
    Let's see if this here's an exception...
    * I have the ability to keep my cool when discussing things on the internets.
    Apparently that's something akin to a superpower, from what I've observed.
    ...apparently not so much. 

There is no substitute for good irony. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 22:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I just made the edit. Unless a change has occurred in the time between your post and mine, I don't see much of a problem. Many of the pages in what links here just link to Template:Subst rather than use the template unsubstituted. And even still, there are fewer than five hundred pages. -- tariqabjotu 22:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I know it's against policy to edit directly from open proxies, but is it against policy to edit with an account over an open proxy?--Azer Red Si? 22:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• As far as I understand open proxies are block on sight. Any editor who finds one shoudl report it and it should immediately be blocked. Guy (Help!) 22:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

from

No open proxies - "Users are prohibited from editing Wikimedia projects through open or anonymous proxies..." --pgk

22:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Tuff luck China. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 22:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I have recently adopted User:Boswell and he would like to add navagation popups to his monobook, however, there seams to be a problem with it and as I'm not an admin, I can't edit his monobook. Could someone possibly add exactly what is written on my monobook to his monobook? Also, please could you remove what is in his monobook already. Thanks RyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 23:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Cheers for sorting that out, its greatly appreciated RyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 23:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm active on TfD at the moment, which usually means that other admins ignore it. (I close ~90% of days within a few hours) However, there's a fairly technical TfD which I dont understand at all here, and I need another admin who actually knows what half of it says to deal with it. Thanks in advance and best reagrds, RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 01:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There appear to be well about 500, including images, in this category (over 400 though without images). Could somebody please work on this? Part Deux 02:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

and it really was supposed to be William Edmondson (no "quote" marks) and I am not quite sure what to do about it and, since I am concerned about overworking the knowledgable folks I usually go to, I thought I'd post here. If nothing has happened by tomorrow morning, I'll try . . . ....... something else. Carptrash 02:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The move button at the top of the screen allows you to rename pages. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the redirect for you as well. :) Cbrown1023 talk 02:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Chris is me has left a note on his RfA - Withdrawing, don't know how, too busy in r/l to look up. Can an admin close to save him further pile on. --Steve _(Slf67) ^talk 05:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

We need a b-crat. Khoikhoi 05:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought only bureaucrats can close RfAs. Khoikhoi 05:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Not in cases of withdrawal or

WP:SNOW. The latter reason, however, is to be used sparingly. --²¹⁰physicq (c

) 05:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This user (

• About my old username. Well worked under the username [11] and then I've created a new account because it was too difficult to understand the "changing username" link because I'm from a foreign country and my English is not very well. Well, I've created a new account because my old username is a name of an existing character and everytime when I type my old username into the google-web machine, my contributions also appear and also JuJube's sentences about my old username also appear. Please don't forget to tell JuJube that he should use my current username in any cases. Well, I've left you a comment because JuJube has to be stopped, as I mentioned. Sergeant Gerzi 11:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'm also helpless and I can't defend myself against JuJube because I'm from a foreign country and my English is not well. So I ask you to help. Sergeant Gerzi 11:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• JuJube has been here a long time and he has a point about the difficulty of verifying these figures. Guy (Help!) 12:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Height and weights doesn't seem to be verifiable. I agree with JuJube on this one issue. Savidan 04:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

They're often in game or in manuals. Similar to TV plot summaries, can't you just reference those?-137.222.10.67 20:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if they are verifiable, they're ultimately unimportant (and address the character in a decidedly in-universe fashion). We got rid of them in the Mortal Kombat articles a while back, and they're all the better for it (they were often at the center of mild edit wars). EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

And guess who started many of those edit wars? In any case, I already addressed this at

WP:ANI, so as frivolous as it was then, it's even more so to do it again here. JuJube

07:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, everything this person is doing is about wikipedia so I'd be inclined to leave 'em alone. Besides, I wouldn't want to guess how it would impact the book if they got booted. :) ---

WRE

) 20:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've seen surveys, and polls done on Userpages before rather successfully, and personally I don't see any issue with it, nor can I think of any better way(off the top of my head) to get interviews of Wikipedians. It may be in some measure against policy, but I'd leave it. Canadian-Bacon 20:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the argument is that it doesn't further the goal of building an Encyclopedia. I disagree with that sentiment... I think both public relations and research both have a indirect but real effect in furthering our goal. ---

WRE

) 20:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In principle, I think it's a bit of crystal-ballism to say that this will further the goal of building an Encyclopedia; it might... or it might be an absolute smear job (or it might just be something that never goes anywhere). That said, I don't have any plans to start unilaterally hassling the editor over this.--Isotope23 20:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very true... but if its going to be a smear-job then I'm not sure why they would even bother with a survey. ---

WRE

) 20:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it could possibly be defamatory, but unfortunately I doubt we have a way to figure this out beforehand. I however, am still willing to AGF on this case. Canadian-Bacon 20:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• I am strongly against using Wikipedia for commercial interests -137.222.10.67 20:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
• Agreed Crud3w4re 06:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
• I don't see this as mis-use (or at least not serious enough to hassle the user about it). It was claimed this is "not part of building the encyclopedia", yet it might well be part of building it up in the long term. Regardless, I don't see there being a high level of harm being caused by this or even a significant possibility of harm existing. Mathmo ^Talk 06:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
• Webspace. By posting at Help desk, the person behind User:A Study of Wikipedia seems to be proceeding cautiously and sincerely in requesting assistance to accomplish their commercial goal without violating Wikipedia policy. -- Jreferee
  18:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Could an admin please review this page that I created and decide if this is appropriate content for Wikipedia. I would like to help organize an effort to have lawsuits filed against the owners of Encyclopedia Dramatica for their blatant violations of others' privacy (e.g. posting <an editor>'s e-mail addresses), but I'm not sure that legal discussion such as this is considered appropriate on Wikipedia. Thanks.--Azer Red Si? 01:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Definitely sounds like

WP:NLT might cover this. (→Netscott

) 01:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this would definitely best be hosted on your own webpage somewhere. Otherwise you're essentially involving the Foundation in your legal effort against their will.

Chick Bowen

05:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I normally dislike WP:IAR. However, since ED is trying to ruin the lives of many notable Wikipedians and has succeeded somewhat (e.g. harassing MONGO enough that his good judgment was messed up so he started to overreact and therefore caused him to be relieved of his administrative duties in the Seabhcan arbitration case), this is one of those rare cases where WP:IAR should trump WP:NLT this time. Since that site coordinates attempts to abuse Wikipedia, which could be considered computer crime in a technical sense, Wikipedia should take steps to defend itself. Maybe a police complaint should be filed about ED. Jesse Viviano 00:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't stoop to their level; it would just make Wikipedia look bad. There are people out there with entire forums devoted to whining about Wikipedia and how they're going to sue us some day; they all come off as a bunch of losers. So do we if we do the same thing. If ED is doing something illegal, take appropriate action; otherwise, it's best to just ignore them; they probably crave attention. *Dan T.* 00:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Would these pages be candidates for MFD? Regards, Navou ^banter 19:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. --Rory096 20:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything there...

.V. _[Talk|Email

] 23:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Check the logs; they pointed to Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Masky/Quests/Quest1Index. James086^Talk 12:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the crux of the perennial IRC issue is that people complain about the lack of accountability there, and the apparent fact that it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the ArbCom. The solution, then, seems fairly straightforward: Create a new IRC channel that IS accountable to the Wikipedia community. Have a clear and concise ruleset for this new channel (e.g. being nasty gets you kicked, some process for making channel ops, and some lightweight way of asking access). And ask the admins to consider using that instead. No, it won't stop The Cabal from talking to each other through other means, but you don't seriously expect to be able to legislate that, now do you? >Radiant< 10:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A good ideam but suggested a little late in the day - meanwhile, people are being driven off, and will not return

Giano

10:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Great theory, but note that IRC is a different system necessitating a different culture. (Your proposal might easily become like implementing finnish culture in saudi arabia, ;-) or vice versa, if you're not careful). I'd like to invite you over to freenode to discuss! :-)

The problem is that some of the irc channels have in fact not always been administered properly by *any* culture. Not by some major failing really, just that there has been a dearth of active chanops in certain channels.

This might have been partially caused by a number of ...people who aren't in channel very often... getting chanops making the numbers look rosier than they really were. This is something that's being remedied right now. Not quick enough for my taste (you can do this so much quicker <sigh>). But it's being remedied --Kim Bruning 11:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, though I would replace "And ask the admins to consider using that instead" with "Compel them to do so by shutting down #wikipedia-en-admins".

Deletion!

11:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This is all well and good but nothing is going to happen because the Arbcom have made it very clear they have no intention of addressing the problem. They obviously feel there is no problem.

Giano

11:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Several arbitrators have indicated a willingness to consider misconduct on wikipedia that originated on IRC. A majority seem to feel that the existence of the channel is not under their scope.

Thatcher131

15:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm doing my best here, at least. :-/ --Kim Bruning 11:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes you are but there is no point, the Arbcom have made their feelings widely known. They have no regard for the editors being driven off, probably because some of them and their friends are heavily involved. Nothing is going to change because no one who has the power to change things wants to.

Giano

11:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

How about automatically copying IRC onto the Wiki. Then it would come under Arbcom, and everyone could see what was going on. Stephen B Streater 12:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Good luck getting that past JamesF and Dannyisme. Though I do in fact wish you well with that. --Kim Bruning 12:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, the arbcom is somewhat divided, so what can they do? And when finally fixed, it's fixed, right? --Kim Bruning 12:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• This is a thread about creating a new IRC channel. Please put soapboxing about existing IRC channels, or about the ArbCom, in some other therad. Thank you. >Radiant< 12:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree this would be the best course. I suggested something similar in my comments on the proposed IRC ArbCom case. Specifically, I would suggest making a 'Wikimedia administration' channel, for all the English Wiki projects, which is open for everyone to READ, but not write to... easily done in IRC by making the channel moderated and giving the 'voice' setting only to those who should be able to write. In the rare cases where truly confidential business must be conducted (OTRS/legal/office/whatever) a private channel can be set up in seconds. Such a setup would allow everyone to see what was going on without filling the channel with tons of gab like the general channel. If an admin acted abusively their 'voice' could be taken away temporarily, or permanently for recurring problems... and any user could temporarily be given 'voice' to ask a question or participate in a discussion relevant to them. --CBD 12:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

combines all the worst parts of all possible systems :-/ --Kim Bruning 13:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me note that Interiot and I already set up something like this called #wikipedia-en-functionaries. Mackensen (talk) 13:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

And someone else set up the (rather poorly named, in my opinion) #wikipedia-en-cabal, which apparently allows public logging. - Mark 13:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest people choose or create IRC channels based on their expectations, oh wait that is what we are already doing, that is how IRC works. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 14:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously what we need now is yet another IRC section so we can have yet another long meandering discussion. That said, I'm for anything that enhances accountability, except for public logging. The rule isn't specific to #wikipedia-en-admins at all, but is common to most Wikimedia IRC channels. If I have to worry about how not just the people in the channel, but how every single Wikipedian might misconstrue my words after reading a small excerpt of the logs, then I might as well have a preview button and not carry the discussion out in real time. (the same principle applies to real-time discussions at Wikimania, or to the Florida Wikimedia office... it would be intrusive to suggest everyone's informal conversations be recorded and be available for public posting) --

On IRC I assume that everything I say is public. If someone posts a partial log, I take it as permission to post the rest of the log as well. Even so, I do understand your position as well. Not everyone is the same. <scratches head> Well, worst case, you could just not visit channels that allow public logging, I suppose. --Kim Bruning 14:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Definitely. If you have a conversation at a large lunchtable, everything should be considered public because anyone is free to relay their own impressions of what was said. But if speakers at the table were aware that the conversation was being recorded verbatim and that selective snippets could be replayed to anyone else, they'd almost certainly word their conversation more carefully. That's certainly a good thing in many cases,[12] but for people who are essentially good, it's also sometimes needless overhead. For those who have lunch at work, how many would be willing to have their lunch conversations recorded? How many people would be totally comfortable with having the audio in their workspace recorded by their employer, to ensure a professional demeanor at all times? Yes, it's good to be able to have both logged and unlogged conversations. And if we can make sure that IRC has adequate ways to deal with civility problems, then it's the place for unlogged conversations. --

Interiot

18:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think public longing is undesirable, especially given that a lot of the communication on IRC is personal material only tangentially related to on-wiki matters. However, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that what you say there isn't being recorded. Nor to think that what say there won't become public knowledge. In light of this, comments made on IRC that personalize disputes can be as detrimental to the collaborative process as comments made on-wiki, and to my mind ought to be regarded in more or less the same light. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Contributors to this thread may be interested in my statement at

Now, its important to understand that the users wern't requesting that deletion of the article be overturned; they wanted it unprotected so that a new article can be created. Would I be right in asserting that the requests for unprotection, rather than deletion review, is the correct place for that? Or have I misunderstood this one? The policy states "Re-creation of such pages can be requested at deletion review if the deletion was incorrect or circumstances have changed". However, it is not 'recreation' of the article that is wanted, it is the brand-spanking-new creation of a brand spanking new article; or have I got that wrong? --Robdurbar 15:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

If it is a substantially new article then I don't think a DRV is needed. I would really depend on the reasoning of the deletion, if it was per crystal balling, then I think once the episode it out it is fine to recreate. In other words if the deletion reasons don't apply to the new article, then they don't apply. Unless I am wrong. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• Ahem: that's not a policy, it's a group of lost fans agreeing that every episode, past or future, is of surpassing importance and must have its own article - maybe they think we are a mirror of Lostpedia or an episode guide or something. Just to be clear. Guy (Help!) 19:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Just to be clear, you're right the policy that Robdurbar is referring to is not policy on Wikipedia. However, it is documented consensus resulting from a mediation with a unanimous decision. This discussion should not be focused on the justification of Lost episode articles but rather whether protected deleted pages should go to requests for unprotection or deletion review. --
    Wikipedical
    22:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's tagged as a policy on the talk page. Maybe that should change. --Robdurbar 11:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• I generally unprotect any salted page listed at
  Chick Bowen
  22:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I went through the protection log and compiled two lists: one of fake articles that were salted, the other of actual content needing protection. Here it is. This'll be an inside joke reoccurring theme, as the Elephant vandalism never truly went away. If other sysops could please double/triple check the contribution histories of the deleted articles to check up on blocks and make sure those all went well. I'm not even going to dream of going through how many blocks we issued last night, they were going out like candy. I was even blocked briefly in the flurry of activity (Hi, xaosflux!). There's probably some body parts laying around that we need to pick up. Teke ^(talk) 17:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I was watching Letterman last night. What'd Colbert do this time? —The preceding

unsigned comment was added by Luigi30 (talk • contribs

) 18:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Whoops, forgot to sign and got beaten by a bot. AFDs must be giving me carpal tunnel :( Luigi30 (Taλk) 18:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It was a dirge on how reality is now a commodity, marketable and sellable, so go to Wikipedia and announce that reality is a commodity. Teke ^(talk) 18:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It was at the end of a piece on Microsoft and Wikipedia. See the last paragraph in this Signpost story: Microsoft's Wikipedia standards. --Quiddity 21:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I've re-deleted the salted pages and disabled their re-creation via cascading protection at

David Levy

23:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah ha! I shoulda thought of that. I'll provide entries there as well as the reference index I'm building on my subpage. If anyone sees pages please add them to User:Teke/Colbert after putting in the protected titles. BTW, I'm making just a couple of those protected Reality misspellings redirects. I'd rather someone get pointed to where they are going then to find out why "Reallity" is misspelled. Teke ^(talk) 03:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, that way we can use Prefix index to search. I am moving those I see over. Prodego ^talk 02:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)