Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive174

I don't even see why he has to put it in his archive. It doesn't appear that he was blocked for it, so it must not have been a big deal. I don't think there's any rule that requires talk page archives to be perfect records, or even a rule that requires having talk page archives. Mr.Z-man 17:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

What about

WP:UP#CMT, which says, "Policy does not prohibit users ... from removing comments from their own talk pages.... Important exceptions may include ... confirmed sockpuppetry notices.... In these cases it may be legitimate in order to keep a user from gaming the system. Such templates are intended not only to communicate with the user in question, but to display important information about ... sockpuppetry." As for whether he was blocked, see this, which was connected with this whole sordid saga. Also, see this, which was the block of his disruptive sockpuppet. And, yes, it was a big deal. Tennis expert (talk

) 20:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

And what exactly do you think having this template on his talk will achieve? Especially 4 months after the event? This is getting more and more silly... -- lucasbfr ^talk 22:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the above, archiving this old thread is reasonable now and nothing in the username or recent actions of the user warrants admin attention. The userpage notice is uncalled-for and could be waived as well. Cenarium ^Talk 23:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keeping the confirmed sockpuppetry notice on the current version of this user's discussion page will further

WP:UP#CMT. If you (lucasbfr) don't like that policy, maybe you should try to gain consensus to overturn it. But that is not the point of the discussion here. Through June of this year, this user (Fyunck(click)) had a proven history of dishonesty and disruption, which this user has never admitted much less apologized for. (See, e.g., this, where he claims that any confirmed sockpuppetry notice would be "very unfair".) In my opinion, that makes the user untrustworthy, which aside from anything else is why the confirmed sockpuppetry notice should remain. By the way, administrators occasionally impose conditions for unblocking, and I see no reason why conditions could not be iimposed on this user for removal of the confirmed sockpuppetry notice, including admission of previous sockpuppetry. Tennis expert (talk

) 10:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

legitimate in order to keep a user from gaming the system. But the user is not gaming the system, so let him be. SpinningSpark 09:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You're misreading the policy, or rather reading something into the policy that does not exist. The policy does not say that a confirmed sockpuppetry notice must remain on a user's discussion page only if the notice is needed to prevent this particular user from gaming the system. Tennis expert (talk) 10:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Funny to see how Tennis expert, of all people, is opposed to granting another user the option to archive his/her talk page as they see fit. He regularly removes anything he deems critical of his editing, no matter if that criticism is valid or not. Funny. Very funny indeed. Everyme 10:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok enough of this nonsense. Tennis expert is the only dissonant voice here. Marking it as resolved, can we please go back at, you know, writing stuff in namespace 0? -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I nominated an article, Georges Lopez, for speedy deletion. The editor obviously took exception to it, and posted this in my talk. I know it's not Earth-shattering or even rude; it's just weird. I'm just curious whether there's some kind of stock response to this... or perhaps I should just ignore it. Seegoon (talk) 00:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:RBI. Revert and ignore. I see no problem with the speedy (which is actually on Georges lopez—note the lower case l), because it's nonsense, lacks context, and is unreferenced. Horologium (talk)

00:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Weird, exactly; possibly

not himself. Can't see what help an admin can give unless it gets heavy. Delete and forget. --Rodhullandemu

01:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

... granted per announcement of October 19.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 10:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

For the Arbitration Committee

User right given. --Filip (§) 10:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This message is to bring greater community attention to the

Hiya, everybody. Yesterday I protected Joe the Plumber for 48 hours due to an edit war, and that protection is gonna' wear off early tomorrow morning. It doesn't seem that the content dispute that triggered the war is at all over, and I fear that it will resume as soon as the protection does expire. I wouldn't like to extend the protection, so that non-warrior editors can continue to work on it as normal, so if I could get some more eyes over on it now that'd be great. Cheers, and thanks. lifebaka++ 19:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How about blocking the people that continue to edit war? --

talk

) 19:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Depends on whether its the same people or random IP vandalism. If there are a small number of edit warriors and they don't get the message from page protection, then definitely block the edit warriors next time. Thatcher 19:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

With sufficient warning, that is in fact my plan. I just can't be on 24/7. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Editnotices have been shown to be incredibly effective for edit wars, if you're interested. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that looks like a useful idea. Any examples of effective ones in recent use, MZ? ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There's one on Sarah Palin, actually. Just read up on it. Thanks for the link, MZ, that will help. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ooh, that one's good. Agree with lifebaka - a useful tool to consider in the future. Ta muchly, MZ. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 20:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there a way to get a list of editnotices currently in use? Or a way to find out whether a page has an editnotice without actually clicking on "edit this page"? I've asked at Wikipedia talk:Editnotice. Carcharoth (talk) 04:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes and sort of. --Carnildo (talk) 04:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Carcharoth (talk) 04:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

PrefixIndex is a bit more of a 'canonical' way of getting the list. That is, it doesn't specify a start and end like AllPages does. --MZMcBride (talk) 16:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and a wikilink can be made so readers can see where it goes without clicking: Special:PrefixIndex/Mediawiki:Editnotice. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The edit war is restarting: [8], [9]. Basically no compromised can be reached because some editors strongly believe that facts published in mainstream media of all political leanings (from WaPo to Fox News), should still be excluded from Wikipedia based on BLP policy. Good luck sorting this one out. VG ☎ 16:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also fighting over "the most famous plumber in the nation" statement [10] [11]. Seriously

WP:LAME. VG ☎

18:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

One editor has made at least 4 reverts in a very short time period. QuackGuru 19:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Most famous plumber my ass. Have we all forgotten about Mario and Luigi?!?!- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen it specified that Luigi was a plumber- for that matter, where's the actual evidence that Mario did any plumbing work either? In any case, that statement has to go- it's unverifiable and a blatant peacock. Humph, most famous plumber... ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 00:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Listen I think it is fairly clear that they both were plumbers. The mere fact that they went up and down pipes shows that they have some sort of expertise on the matter.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 02:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but did Luigi have his own license, or did work under Mario's? (Score -1, Troll) VG ☎ 17:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, as there's some confusion, I am not Science Apologist, though the name, Shoemaker's Holiday, is vaguely similar. There has been some confusion.

Now, then, I originally sent this to the arbcom, but they said that it should be dealt with by the community, so... here we are!

Martinphi (talk · contribs) is under an editing restriction because he " has engaged in a variety of disruptive behavior, including, but not limited to, using Wikipedia as a soapbox, threatening disruption of the project, and making deliberately provocative edits" (Finding of Fact #2, sans links). It is becoming increasingly clear that he has not yet learned proper Wikipedia behaviour. and, as the restriction is due to expire in November, I am asking that it be extended a further year.

For instance, in a thread which I've sampled here he claims that

I think that Martinphi's statements in the Paranormal Request for clarification are also relevant. In the face of every arbitrator clearly stating that the finding of fact does not set out an explicit content ruling, but was simply an effort to understand the party's points, he continues to insist that the arbcom, in fact, made a content ruling, and that he should be able to use it to push his point of view.

Martinphi has a very bad case of

I would also suggest that he be banned from editing policy. Besides the examples from above, back in April, he specifically admitted to editing

I would encourage anyone with doubts to review Martinphi's edits to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view from about 29 August to 7 September. This will give clear evidence of a pattern of editing I can only hint at in this brief summary. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, note that the "today's editing of NPOV/FAQ" refers to editing that took place about a month ago, not actually today (10/24).

No action was taken by the committee upon your identical complaint there, and apparently no action taken as a result of any threads on

^T

20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I am under no restriction of any sort regarfding him. The only thing remotely similar came after he launched a major attack on me on

WP:ANI, and I was advised to back off while others dealt with it. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC) No longer relevant. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk

) 23:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

From my Rfarb comment pasted here. Nothing has changed since then, and I consider Shoemaker's part in this to be disruptive. I am greatly concerned about his motives.(olive (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC))

Statement by olive

Concur with Coppertwig: Have I stepped into an alternate universe? I initially decided not to comment here because I couldn't believe that anyone who has been watching Martin's editing in the last few months could take seriously what is being said here. I've met Martinphi on a few of the policy pages where I have been working, and did a little work on Psychic. Here [20] he is obviously working in consort with editors who have multiple views on the topic of NOR. Martin has been clear, measured, intelligent in his comments, and obviously is collaborative in his editing. Yes, he's also strong and forthright, but needs to be given the editing environments on some of these articles. I would say on the policy pages there is very little friction among the editors, and whatever is there isn't coming from Martin. Here, he and OrangeMarlin although apparently in disagreement agree to compromise on Psychic. [21][22]. I understand as Ludwig mentioned that editors can disagree, and may have strong differences of opinion, but as with Martin and OrangeMarlin there are other, less disruptive ways of dealing with it than an Rfa.(olive (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC))

Comment by MBisanz

Usually when Arbcom tells the community to handle something, it either means the behavior issue is not yet

• I second this. List the request at
  WP:RFC/U. -- Suntag ☼
  16:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
• I see value in getting broader input from the Community and think a RFC/U will be a good method. If issues are noted that need to be addressed, then we can decide the best way forward, with new ArbCom restrictions, maybe. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to be extremely frank here as I have never been before on Wikipedia. This complaint should never have been filed. Its not real, and I can't believe that it is even being discussed. This editor in the last months has been blameless, and I mean blameless . His progress and maturity have been a pleasure to see and watch. To have another editor who would seem to have ulterior motives trump this up and for the community to even consider the charges in any way, in any way at all, after the Rfarb in which only one editor responded against Martinphi and in which three editors with diffs showed the accusations to be false seems completely beyond understanding. I am incredibly reluctant to speak against SH here so I won't say more. Yes I'm upset, and outraged. How can this happen? This should stop here! (olive (talk) 16:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC))

• Since I became active on Wikipedia, I've seen this general homeopathy/pseudoscience feud constantly popping up at the fringe of my peripheral vision. It appears that in this general area,
  battleground and I personally cannot see any way to stop it, short of deleting all the articles or banning both sides. MBisanz ^talk
  17:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There is one way of changing this and that is if the editors mature enough to deal with the material and the difficult situations they have to work in. One editor has done this. This issue is not about the old arguments on these fringe articles. This is about one editor creating a situation where none exists. OrangeMarlin and Martin are very clearly on opposite sides of the fence on these fringe articles and yet they have found ways to work congenially on Psychic. I would very much fear that bringing up this old issue as you have will only inadvertently create a red herring. This is not to blame just an observation. I want to reiterate this situation does not exist. Martin is not behaving in the way that SH says he is. There was no need to bring this here, or to Rfarb for that matter, and to continue this on when someone is blameless is of grave concern for me since it means really and truly someone can be railroaded into a situation and yet be innocent. In this instance this editor has taken to heart the restrictions placed on him, and has behaved in an exemplary way. This kind of untrue accusatory situation can't be condoned or at the least supported if Wikipedia is going to be successful. Editors have to feel safe here. I can't speak for Martin but if this were me I'd be walking away, not because its not fair, which it isn't, but because its not safe. I would urge that anyone who wants to condemn Martin look at every single diff on his contributions in the last couple of months.(olive (talk) 17:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC))

• Point of note: the natural progression is, in fact, EA → RFCU/U → AN. Problem editors can be dealt with through community discussion on this noticeboard; that's a common practical aspect of today's community. RFAR is used only for those rare cases where every avenue to resolving a given matter has failed to the extent that the project is actively suffering. I find it harmful to build Arbitration—which in itself is intended to be a final port of call for the resolution of particularly poisonous disputes—into the standard user conduct DR process; we call upon the Committee to take the duty of resolving its internal conflicts out of its own hands only where it is absolutely necessary.
  AGK
  23:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment by FloNight

Shoemaker's Holiday, my statement did not say that Martinphi should be "dealt with by the Community". I said that ArbCom was the proper venue. And I also said in my statement that I wanted input from a broader section of the Community. You have made your opinion known. If others see a problem with Martinphi, then they need to let ArbCom know so we can make or modify any editing restrictions. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• comment - I agree with Olive's first statement. Martinphi has been disruptive in the past, but his only disruption now is to Shoemaker's POV. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone even read the diffs before they decided to attack me? Or are you just deciding that the counter-attack by Martinphi's friends? For the record, I am under no sanctions regard I am not Science Apologist - as I believe some have mistakenly assumed - and this was my first statement of my concerns to Arbcom. So why am I being told that Arbcom knows full well my opinion, and doesn't want to hear what I have to say? Probably because they can't tell the difference between people whose name begins with the same letter. Feh! Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've refactored my original comment to refocus it on the fact that this problem has been dsicussed previously in other forums without conclusion. It doesn't seem like there has been any negative recent developments in Martinphi's conduct, so I'm not sure that this is the time or place to start a new discussion. MBisanz' suggestion for a user conduct RfC is a good one, not least because it takes the discussion out of the framework of a page that is intended to result in sanctions.

^T

20:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with those who have suggested other venues. I don't think any sort of agreement about a longstanding and controversial editor like Martinphi will be reached in an

WP:RFC/U would be a better venue. I will chip in my 2 cents: I have often found Martin difficult and frustrating in the past, but my sense is that he's made significant progress as an editor and has improved over time in terms of his approach to Wikipedia. But that's simply a gut feeling and I have not reviewed his recent contributions extensively, nor have our paths crossed recently in any meaningful way. MastCell ^Talk

20:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

My intention is and was not to attack Shoemaker, but I do obviously question his motives. I had no desire to drag up diffs to prove my points to other editors. That would be an attack of sorts and that wasn't my purpose. I have been on some of the articles where both Martin and Shoemaker are editing , and I see that Shoemaker has a view of the situation that I cannot share, and which I at the very least find puzzling. A messenger has no involvement. Shoemaker you do. You are attempting to have restrictions renewed on another editor for a full year. If you are going to make the accusations you have, you will have to expect other editors to question why you would do this, and why would you continue when in the Rfarb there was so clearly so little support or interest. If other editors see my comments as an attack rather than the support, questions, and serious concerns that arise when another editor is attacked I will be happy to apologize. I can't withdraw my concerns on this issue nor will I support taking this any further. This as I have stated is not about adversaries on a fringe article, an old debate/concern that I think has seen great improvements. This is about a single editor and accusations that are unfounded and unproven.

If we really want the fringe article debate to improve further, when restrictions are applied and when an editor clearly improves in the ability to deal with those situations, then, it is of the utmost importance that discussion not be deflected back onto that old debate, and that the contributions of that editor are clearly studied and judged by impartial editors before that editor is dragged through the mud of yet another discussion. The unfairness of this, I'm afraid, I find quite mind boggling.(olive (talk) 20:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC))

Reply to Shoemaker. I absolutely do not conflate you with SA. I find SA to be a disruptive detriment to the project (even though I mostly agree with his pov). I read the statement you posted at Rfarb, and reviewed a few of the diffs that I did not find compelling. Hence, I do not support your recommendation/proposal. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There are only 10 diffs. Why not check all of them? Above you said I was only doing this because of my POV. However, you have not actually reviewed the evidence I provided, so saying such things about me seems unwarranted - you have no way of knowing because you never checked my evidence. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I checked enough of your evidence to find your statement on Martinphi uncompelling. Point out where he's really disruptive, 'cause I'm not seeing it. In asking for additional restrictions, it is your position to sell them to the observers (whether that's the Arbcom, a group of admins here, or any other venue). Make the sale! to this point you have not. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Anther bold subheading

Why are we here? If you'd like an arbitration ruling enforced, there is

Could someone please have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of United States presidents by handedness, with an eye to closing it? The nomination was based on an admittedly poor start, but since it was re-written the consensus to keep has been virtually unanimous. I'm asking for this because the article has been nominated for DYK, and will be ineligible as long as the AfD tag is on it. Lampman (talk) 11:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's closed now.

^Pounce!

11:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for a quick response. Lampman (talk) 11:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hold on a minute - the discussion had only been running two days (three days short of required five) and is not unanimous. I appreciate the predicament re: DYK but that closure was a bit iffy. Nancy ^talk 11:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree. This AfD should have been allowed to run its course, and most certainly shouldn't have been subject to a Non-Admin closure. The fact that closure seems to have been instigated in order to get it into DYK looks like an abuse of process. Mayalld (talk) 12:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah crap, I assumed that it had run for the full period of time. Reopening, of course. Sorry guys.

^Pounce!

12:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's reverted, please don't eat me :-)

^Pounce!

12:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, you were perfectly in your right to close it under the

snowball clause, which "is designed to prevent editors from using Wikipedia policies and guidelines as a filibuster". But neither is it worth stooping to their level; I'm sure it will resolve itself somehow. Lampman (talk

) 15:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Lampman, three of the most recent seven !votes have been "delete" so I would beg to differ with your assertion that

WP:SNOW can be applied here. I agree that then most likely outcome will be a keep but that is by no means a certainty. Nancy ^talk

16:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No, maybe a probability of 0.00009. Lampman (talk) 17:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Vandalism was reverted. - TexasAndroid (talk) 16:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The following page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_(computing)

has silly vandalism (right at the start of the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RufusThorne (talk • contribs) 15:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's been fixed. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Restrictions on editing of articles between Abtract, Collectonian and Sesshomaru

By agreement of a majority of the involved administrators, the restrictions here have been amended in the following way, and come into effect at the conclusion of this arbitration case:

Important Notice These restrictions are imposed upon the above named editors, and are not subject to further amendment without agreement of a majority of the "involved administrators".

• Matters between
  talk · contribs
  ) shall be handled according to the restrictions/remedies enacted by the Arbitration Committee.
• Abtract (talk · contribs) and Sesshomaru (talk · contribs
  ) are banned from interacting with, or, directly or indirectly, commenting on each other on any page in Wikipedia. Should either account violate their bans, they may be blocked for up to one week. After the fifth such violation, the maximum block length shall be increased to one month. This restriction may only be enforced if violations are reported directly by either Abtract or Sesshomaru - it does not apply if violations are reported by any other editor(s).
• Further remedies concerning Abtract, Collectonian and/or Sesshomaru may be enacted to include banning interactions with any other user, if it is later deemed necessary in the opinion of 3 administrators to prevent harassment.
• The editors are already aware of the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle, and are reminded that edit-warring has a disruptive and detrimental effect on Wikipedia. Should any of these 3 users edit-war in the future, they may be subject to further sanctions (including wider revert limitations, blocks and bans).

Involved administrators are LessHeard vanU (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), Natalya (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), and JHunterJ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) who should act with due notice to all the other parties. Other admins are welcome to add their names to the above, and comments by any other party is welcome.

+ + + + +

To whom it may concern, the above was discussed and agreed upon here by a majority of the involved administrators. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going to wait until this user got another warning but now I see that there are many in her talk page history, she's merely removed them (which is fine, I'm just saying that they are there.) In all the 200 edits of this user, I wonder how many are attacks on other editors. She seems to have a 'thing' about

I felt it necessary to blank that individual's posts from my user talk, per BLP. Durova^Charge! 03:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I actually reviewed this account a couple of days ago when I noticed the rather interesting self-declared husband and wife team attempting to tag team their way through an arbitration request. Their behaviour is a perfect example of why we have sometimes discouraged husband and wife editors from participating in the same XfDs etc. Honestly, I'm feeling rather inclined to block this editor for a few days. It's clear the warnings haven't made any impression and if anything the behaviour towards other editors is becoming worse and increasingly contemptuous. It's one thing tolerating a bit of disruption from people who actually help build and contribute to the project, but I don't see why we need to tolerate it from people contributing little in the way of encyclopedia building, and who are violating BLP, attacking other editors, and now, apparently, returning simply to revert without even attempting discussion and resorting to using edit summaries to make personal attacks and accusations without presenting any evidence, that I've been able to find at least. Sarah 10:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm in agreement here - it really does feel like the user displays classic examples of

disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. Whether it's taking a closing admin to RFAR for closing an AfD in a way she did not agree with, or raising multiple other AfDs based purely on the outcome of that initial one, it's a constant disruption. An action that would prevent the current disruption would be helpful, although the civility questions that Sticky Parkin raises would remain. Gazimoff

12:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest a short block for disruption, with a joint RFC on the two of them if things continue.

talk

) 15:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked the editor 48 hours for disruption, too many worries here. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems a reasonable thing to do. Endorse block. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 18:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This is hardly a reasonable or, in several cases, an honest discussion, and is dominated by unfounded allegations of bad faith masquerading as legitimate concerns. There is no evidence that my spouse,

WP:BITE. Crusio responded by trailing her around Wikipedia, making inappropriate comments regarding her, escalating to one lengthy diatribe including a personal attack, falsely claiming that various mstters were sourced when they were not, and reversing her edits to other articles, including at least one example of outright vandalism. After much provocation, she described him, rather accurately, as a "stalker," leading to this lynching, in which she was not provided an opportunity to respond. The blocking administrator has not cited any examples for most of the supposed violations, particularly the claims of BLP violations. This is a gross abuse of administrator authority, and should be reversed without delay. Minos P. Dautrieve (talk

) 15:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not just Crusio she's called a stalker though, she's called two other people at least a 'stalker', along with other comments in violation of

WP:NPA. Sticky Parkin

17:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• See User_talk:Gwen_Gale#Your_grossly_inappropriate_block_of_The_Enchantress_of_Florence. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Mr. Dautrieve is making a headlong rush to join his wife in a block; if they don't stop tag-teaming, I'd suggest indef-blocking both of them as disruptive meat puppets. Gwen has shown remarkable restraint in allowing her talk page to be used as a soapbox; I would have removed similar fulmination from my page. Horologium (talk) 16:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  I do not believe there is anything inappropriate in asking for a substantive response to a question about an action when no evidence, or other explanation, is provided in support of that action. I find it hard to view a response like this as anything but an attempt at intimidation. I would be interested in seeing ether policy or precedent in support of this suggestion, and I continue to await anyone's explanation of the BLP and "pointy" editing charges cited by Gen Gale without explanation. Minos P. Dautrieve (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Your wife was blocked for making personal attacks; repeatedly calling another user a "stalker" in edit summaries (she did so at least four times) is a personal attack. Due to previous incidents with real stalking on Wikipedia, such accusations are not taken lightly, and using the term to describe the actions of the editor in question is libelous. Additionally, her editing was disruptive; many of her edits were simply

  attempts to ignore such warnings are tiresome. Horologium (talk)

  17:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  At least with regard to the current incident, the user she applied that label to had announced his intentions rather clearly, and was systematically going through her contributions and reversing them, in at least one case resorting to outright vandalism, and had posted personal attacks on her. That is my initial complaint to Gwen Gale referred to asymmetry, a complaint to which I received no substantive response. If we are dealing with a "magic words" justification for blocking, then that should have been stated, and a specific advance warning given. I have read

  WP:POINT, and no one has yet cited an example of it; this matter has simply been judgment by accusation. Several of the accusations were outright falsehoods (e.g., an accusation of "mass" deletion proposals, when only two were made). As for your final point, I would note that no "explanation" has ever been given in substantive terms; the charge is simply restated, without any evidence. Lardner's "Shut up, explained," is an example of irony, yet it too often seems to be taken seriously here. Minos P. Dautrieve (talk

  ) 17:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  Additionally, I would note that a variation of the term "stalking" is officially sanctioned as a description of the behavior of the other editors involved. [27] Is the basis for the action against her that she simply used the wrong form of the applicable term? I have reviewed

  WP:HARASSMENT declares that the behavior she complains of is prohibited. Minos P. Dautrieve (talk

  ) 18:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Tan | 39

18:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Also potentially relevant, this past incident also involved EOF's unfortunate difficulties with civility. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• User:Minos P. Dautrieve has requested an unblock on his talk page, with more of the wikilawyering he's exhibited here and elsewhere. I'm not inclined to unblock him, but because of my interaction with him above, I'll let another admin make the call. Horologium (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Truth be told I've begun thinking of blocking them both indef for ongoing, blatantly disruptive edits and wikilawyering which have nothing to do with building the encyclopedia or following its policies in a collaborative way. I'm not even sure anymore they're two people and if they are, it's over-the-top meatpuppetry. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I think they are two people, but both are being very disruptive in numerous ways. A block wouldn't be a bad idea here. I'd not be inclined to make it indef though, since they aren't exactly SPAs, just rather passionate with the wrong idea about how things work. –

talk

) 20:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I think they're two people, Minos has more edits and considers what he says more. But they are two people who are erm, not behaving very nicely. They claim to have knowledge of the French wikipedia, wonder what their standing is over there? Sticky Parkin 21:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I have since looked at their contribs and do think their syntax and typos don't match. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Two people. It might be necessary to block Minos from access to his talk page if he carries on.

talk

) 21:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I got a taste of this user Enchantress, a few months back when she randomly removed some of the PRODS because another editor with whom she had a run in seconded those. She was extremely rude and uncivil in her comments and edit summaries. Its clear that the user Minos is her spouse and they are tagging up to get their way. I would suggest both of them blocked for at least a month, so that they get the time cool themselves down. Thanks. Shovon (talk) 19:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a backlog dating back to the start of July at Wikipedia talk:Image renaming, I set out my own stance on this here, over a week ago, to no avail. Another editor, who's been waiting a while, thinks that the page should be protected (presumably to prevent further backlog). Can this be sorted out? It's obviously not a day-in-day-out type task that admins carry out, but I don't think it would take too long. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I least have the courtesy of a response, yes or no? Enough people get granted rollback rights; could this be looked into? Yohan euan o4 (talk) 19:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this article warrants a "speedy deletion" because it is about one journal article presenting a fringe theory. I am not sure that this "theory" would meet our criteria for includion in another article, given that it is a fringe theory with one source. It definitely is not significant enough to merit an article. I smell POV forking.

I have been involved in content disputes concerning a related article, Race and intelligence, and do not think it ould be appropriate for me to make the decision to delete, or to delete it, as some may consider me biased. I'd appreciate others looking into it and seeing if it really does meet the criteria. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If it is a fork, it is one of some 30 months existence; I therefore do not think a speedy delete is an option. Given the circumstances, perhaps it should go to AFD? LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Article was Nominated for deletion back in Feb 2007, the result then was "no consensus". --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

After such a time, since it is still relying on the one source and it appears that there are still no other references available, perhaps it is time again to nominate it for AFD - and as that is a discussion/consensus based procedure then there is no bar on Slrubenstein nominating it. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, if someone else (working on the page) agrees it merits a nomination for deletion we will go that route. Thanks for the feedback, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This issue was already discussed and went nowhere. The underlying feeling was that it merited an article because there exists adequate numbers of news articles and references to warrant it. Recent criticism, besides Slrubenstein's, was based on the mistaken belief that the article was on the intelligence of the Ashkenazis (and not on the fringe theory) and therefor needed to be expanded or re-named. That didn't constitute a dispute. Best, A Sniper (talk) 23:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Uh, you are saying the article is on a "fringe theory?" And that is not a POV fork how? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

AFD is not dispute resolution, it is a discussion on whether the article satisfies WP's notability guidelines - and this discussion belongs there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, well, they demonstrably have intelligence. It has been measured and compared to that of other groups. There have been numerous reliable sources with substantial coverage of the subject. What is is the issue here? Edison (talk) 02:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not a direct legal threat as such, but this edit, made on User Talk:G2bambino by a user who has been broadly supportive of that user in a long running and acrimonious dispute with User:Roux appears to be fanning the flames towards a legal threat. Not sure what (if anything) should be done here. Mayalld (talk) 16:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I could be missing something, but I hesitate to call that a clear legal threat. Iffy, sure, but I'd rather hesitate to block over that sort of vague statement, absent a pattern of some sort, or something else to suggest a problem. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless User:Gavin Scott is out chasing ambulances on wiki, I've no idea what that about. It does not seem in the least threatening.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Gavin Scott is clearly baiting G2bambino, whom has been blocked for legal threats before. A warning would be in order. Tiptoety ^talk 22:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Amended: Ooops, he has not been blocked for legal threats before, I was thinking of another user. Tiptoety ^talk 22:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Legal threat? I don't see it. It's just a joke, nothing more. GoodDay (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that it is not a

legal threat, but I am not sure it is constructive. Tiptoety ^talk

22:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it's meant to bait G2bambino. Afterall, Gavin is supporting G2 and/or opposing Roux (which ever ya choose). GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

A legal threat is where someone indicates that they have initiated, or intend to initiate, legal action, or where they clearly threaten another user with legal action. Most things that are ambiguous are not legal threats. Indeed we get very few realistic legal threats on wikipedia. Most times that we block someone for legal threats, we could equally have blocked them for trolling and disruption.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 22:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I am a little concerned about what has transpired here and quite frankly, I am taking the fifth! If any action is to be taken I would like an admin to explain to me what I did wrong and advise me on what I should do. Gavin (talk) 01:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• It looks like heavy sarcasm. Annoying but not anything that needs official action unless there's more to the history than this. -Nard 01:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this acceptable? Note that on Oct 22, C4v3m4n spammed invitations to this "contest page" to the talk pages of some 30 editors. I don't know if this violates any specific policy, but I do know that I don't like it. Looie496 (talk) 17:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• You probably won't like Wikipedia:Reward board or Wikipedia:Bounty board, either. Uncle G (talk) 17:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Those don't bother me. I'm not keen on users setting up things like this privately, and I'm particularly not keen on any sort of spamming. Looie496 (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If we see dubious nominations at FAC, I suppose we will address it. However, it should be known that FAs are promoted because the articles (should) reflect the most comprehensive and authoritative sources available on the subject. Any articles on moustaches or facial hair, or anything really, are allowed, but what concerns me is the extra points for originality of content. That suggest

WP:SYNTH. If an editor does proper research, the content should not be original in the sense that it has never been seen before, just brilliantly written. It would help if C4v3m4n became involved with reviewing FACs in preparation for this endeavor to better guide participants. --Moni3 (talk

) 17:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And you probably don't like this contest by WikiProject Military history either. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no problems with the contest. Not thrilled about spamming 30 people about it. Looie, besides the spamming, what is it about the contest that bothers you? Seems like a case of sticking our collective noses in where they aren't needed; am I missing something fundamental here? --

barneca (talk

) 19:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It strikes me as a bad idea for users to be setting up public functionality in their private space. It's bound to get out of control. Anything in user-space that creates a need to advertise is going to be a problem. Doing things like this in Wikipedia space or WikiProject space is a whole different story -- that's public functionality in a public place. Looie496 (talk) 20:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter what title the page has ? If it's behaving like a project page, we'll treat it like a project page, if it "all gets out of hand", but at the moment, I see no problem with the page. Nick (talk) 21:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

All that Wikipedia public functionality started out as someone or other's private idea. Even something as fundamental to today's Wikipedia as the Manual of Style was originally one guy's little scheme (which some of us ignored until it was no longer possible). But that's the way it has always worked on Wikipedia. People try stuff out. If enough people think that the stuff is a good idea it endures and possibly gets shifted to the Wikipedia namespace -- otherwise it doesn't. And that's the way it should be. It'll be a sad day when we have to Seek Official Sanction before doing anything new. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if this is a daft question, but is it possible to have an article's history split in to two? I want to do some cleanup at

While merging two histories is easy (via

WP:HISTMERGE), splitting an article's edit history is ... extremely challenging and not generally worth the effort. Given the short amount of content on the page, just go ahead and fix it up. --Kralizec! (talk

) 22:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Cheers! PC78 (talk) 22:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

For your information, splitting histories involves:

1. Deleting the page
2. Identifying and restoring all revisions related to page 2
3. Moving these revisions away
4. Restore all other relevant revisions (some times there may be revisions which have previously been deleted - don't restore those)
5. Rollback the redirect caused by the move in step 3

Not worth the effort. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Leonapedia has re-created Leona Lewis on The X Factor after it was deleted earlier this year, here in his namespace. Is this allowed? Dalejenkins | 14:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, userfying of deleted articles to give the author a chance to work on it and bring it to a point where it will overcome the reasons for deletion is a common practice. So as a general thing, this is not a bad thing. In the specifics of the specific case, though, the purpose of this userification does not appear to be to allow for improvement, but rather to get around the AFD. So in this particular case I would say this would be a good candidate for A4 G4 - Recreation speedy deletion. - TexasAndroid (talk) 14:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Given the last edit message implying the purpose of the page was to dodge the AFD result, and the lack of any improving edits in the months since, I've gone ahead and tagged it for G4 deletion. This'll let an additional admin be the final judge on it. - TexasAndroid (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

That the editor hasn't sought to improve the article in nearly five months doesn't give me any confidence that this is his intention, and it's toast. --Rodhullandemu 15:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This should be undeleted as a matter of courtesy to the user. Articles created in good faith but subsequently deleted through AfD are commonly preserved in userspace; I have several such pages in my userspace, and I haven't edited them for years. I also don't understand why this article was deleted and not simply redirected to Leona Lewis with the history intact. Everyking (talk) 22:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Check your facts first. I made the page in my userspace after it went up for deletion the first time, but was saved. I guessed they were going to come for it again, so I made a copy I could work on in my userspace. There seemed at the time a concerted effort to get rid of it by certain editors; despite saying in the second AFD that they would merge with the main article, no part of it got put into the main article and much valuable information was lost. So I was right to save a copy to my userspace. And thank-you, Everyking. Courtesy has been distinctly lacking in my case - facts have not been checked and no-one even visited my page to tell me they were deleting one of my user pages, which as Everyking says, can be left quite happily. No-one bothered to tell me of the two AFDs on my userpage either. As Everyking says, I made the article in good faith, and I spent a very long time on it. I feel like I have been right royally shafted here. Leonapedia 86.143.70.84 (talk) 08:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok then. As I see it, you have two options. 1) persuade

WP:DRV protest the deletion. I've also removed the resolved tag for now. - TexasAndroid (talk

) 15:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

 – It's down to two images waiting for handling, at this point in time. TexasAndroid (talk) 18:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

At

It happens from time to time. There're fewer admins who work on the images than on the pages. It gets pretty intimidating when there's 83 of 'em sittin' there, too. The image CSD are pretty straightforward, so feel free to tackle a bit of it if there's a problem in the future. Cheers. lifebaka++ 18:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know what happened to User:Zero0000? He was an administrator I used to interact with fairly regularly. Although we never agreed I thought he was a very talented sysop. I recently found myself scrolling through his recent edits and realized that he edited everyday until a little more than a year ago. Particularly worrisome is his very last edit in which he indicated he was going overseas for a few days. Anyways I think at this point we have to assume he has passed away and that it is time to hand over his administrative powers over to someone else. I don't want to make any suggestions or anything but isn't it fair to assume that Zero would probably want one of his friends to have them? Again I'm not implying anything but I'm sure he would especially appreciate the person who actually noticed his absence.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately adminship is not a hereditary peerage, which would doubtless annoy my kids (a) were I to have any, and (b) if they turned out to be as geeky as me... _Gb^T/c 07:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I was joking about the giving me his powers part, but I am actually really curious as to what may of happened to him. He was a cool guy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Email him using the "email this user" function from his user page, and consider adding his name to this page. _Gb^T/c 08:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

...cough,

admin primogeniture, cough... KnightLago (talk

) 21:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I can just see somebody stalking and assassinating an admin in order to acquire his or her admin rights. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 21:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoa Whoa, if you look in the French police report they eventually concluded that it was a random attack. They discounted the other evidence as circumstantial.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 22:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 23:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I just stumbled into the Marco Lazzara article. It has been on since October 2007 with User talk:Marcolazzara2 as a main contributor. In fact, the only edits this user ever made are to his own article. I just left him an autobio notice on his page, but don't know what else can/should be done. -- Alexf^(talk) 21:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)