Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1076

I haven't interacted with that user much before, but in the last few days we came to be in a disagreement over one particular discussion, and her tone has become increasingly aggressive, up to a point I asked her to

• [1] "But a bunch of partisan POV-pushers led my Piotrus are demontrating an active hostility to actually learning about the topic, and want to detablise the coverage"
• [2] "I am alarmed by your obstinate and aggressive rejection of those two simple points of fact, because that degree of denialism seems to me to be explicable in one of only two ways: a) that your claim to be a social scientist are false, and that you lack the thinking skills to understand that the central dividing issue of a dispute is a POV issue; b) that you intentionally engaged in a FUD campaign to misrepepresent some simple, core facts because they don't suit your POV-pushing agenda. Which is it, Piotrus?"
• [3] "Piotrus, you are back playing your old switch-and-evade game, and using your usual sleazy, gaslighting technique of bogus allegations... your demand for sources is nothing more than a transparently bad faith attrition strategy. For whatever reason, you are engaged in a bizarre form of historical denialism in which you use a succession of WP:GAMINing techniques... The only IDONTLIKEIT here is your sustained and disgustingly ill-mannered attempts to deny that reality.
  • [4] this is my request asking her to refactor the last three posts cited in diffs above and apologize for them
• [5] "rv troll" edit summary in response to the above

In addition to this incident, I'll also note that at the same time, just today, BrownHairedGirl seems to have written similar AGF/NPA-violating comments directed at User:The Rambling Man ([6] "TRM, please do try to stop trolling"). User:SQL asked her to tone this down [7]; which didn't go down so well judging by the fact that after few short exchanges SQL themselves was asking her to "retract personal attacks" made against them: [8]. BHG's posts on her talk page in response to SQL: Accues an editor (presumably TRM) of being a troll again; does so again, referring to (presumably) TRM as troll four times; does so twice more again, and accuses SQL of "harassment and victimisation"; next she refuses to retract the previous accusations, repeats it and the "troll" comments, and adds a new one, accusing SQL of "being a troll-enabler"; continues to repeat a bunch of those accusations again; and finally ends with repeating some of the above and and saying "Your choice not to communicate further is a blessed relief after your terrible behaviour, so please make your non-communication permanent until you repent of being a force-multiplier for a troll.".

So within the last 2-3 days it seems that BrownHairedGirl managed to violate AGF/NPA, rather seriously, towards at least three different editors. Since she is hardly a new editor, one could expect her to uphold, rather than violate, our policies (AGF, CIV, NPA...). One may be having a bad day or few, but if a response to a request to refactor and apologize request is to call the other party a a troll, well... I don't file ANI reports often, but this toxicity is too much even for an old timer like me. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• As this will inevitably draw the anti-TRM hawks out of hiding, I'll just say that the kinds of things being expressed by BrownhairedGirl felt to me like just venting and while toxic, didn't bother me at all. I've been too busy lately just creating shit-tons of featured and good material, and keeping errors off the main page, to be bothered by that kind of stuff. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 15:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• I completely reject Piotrus' claims, and am preparing my response. But there are a lot of diffs to collect, so it may take a few hours. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
  • So you insist on calling me a troll then? PS. My "claims" are simple: I've been a victim of several nasty personal attacks from you. Diffs are above. Good luck rejecting those "claims". All I asked is a refactor and an apology. Why escalate? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    Don't twist facts again, Piotrus. You escalated by bringing your complaint here after your trolling was reverted.

    The full history is below. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'm interested to hear both sides of this, so could we please break ANI tradition and try to work through this without the typical high-octane drama? There's a lot of signal to noise ratio issues at play, and if we can cut through that and work out what happened and why, we might just get through this without it becoming a cluster (I'll let you choose which sort). ~TNT (she/they • talk) 16:45, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Aye, this would be a good idea. Let's see BHG's response before we start any hyperbole. Black Kite (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• 3rded. Piotrus, can you please textify the diffs and just link normally? My eyes glaze over in blue. P.S. TNT, with your user name, I guess Cluster munition...? Fuck, I said the bad word: munition! El_C 17:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Statement by BHG. I stand by my comments about Piotrus. For example, Piotrus falsely accused me[9] of You are inventing a threat of possible future controversies to argue the existing category is controversial. That was because I had pointed out that in the case of the
  WP:BATTLEGROUND
  tactics which he has adopted in relation to political prisoner categories, and I make no apology for calling him for his malicious slurs. I could provide a lot more details on his antics, but I hope that his attempt to smear historical facts as inveting is sufficient illustration of his tactics and why I eventually questioned his integrity when he repeatedly pushed the same point by demanding sources for that simple, core historical point, and I stand by that comment.

So Piotrus's decision to come here to complain about my responses to his antics is bizarre.

As to TRM, the situation is at core relatively simple. TRM posted at BRFA a comment which was pure snark[10]. It offered no insight or value to the decision on whether run that bot task; it was purely a personal attack, and as such it was classic trolling. After I called it out as trolling[11] and hatted it[12], TRM unhatted the off-topic comments,[13] and posted another round of trolling.[14].SQL hatted the discussion again, and I replied to TRM.[15]

Then SQL came to my talk to reproach me for posting in the hatted area. SQL's concern was not that I had been trolled or that the BRFA had been disrupted by the trolling, but I had replied to the troll. SQL's opening comment tome[16] was If you have an issue with another editor, you know where to take it up. That inverted the core fact that the whole thing was a matter of another editor taking issue with me in the wrong venue. But there was no reproach to TRM, only to me. After several rounds of this, I eventually asked SQL to stop this harassment and victimisation, and go reproach the troll who had accused the disruption. SQL took offence at that, and we both tried to disengage.

I then went off to explore the background of TRM's comment that another editor has advised him to come to BRFA. I then discovered that in fact, TRM had been goaded into action by Aussie Article Writer (talk · contribs) (formerly Chris.sherlock), a long-term highly destructive editor who has waged extraordinarily long and vicious vendettas against numerous editors,and who began his vendetta against me after I opposed his vile vendetta against @DuncanHill. As a result,Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer is subject to a one-way IBAN re me and DuncanHill. That IBAN was flagrantly broken by his antics on TRM's talk (permalink to that discussion,which is busting with personal attacks on me by all three participants), and by Aussie Article Writer's trolling of my draft RFA (permalink), and by Aussie Article Writer's continued breaches of the iBAN on his talk after being blocked for the IBAN breaches (permalink).

Sadly, SQL was uninterested in any of that shoddy background when I posted about it on SQL's talk: permalink.

Now, having slept on it, I am much less annoyed at SQL and TRM. All three of us -- TRM, SQL and me -- were all played like puppets by Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock, whose exceptional talent for poisoning wn.wp has been developed over a decade of drama and malice. I sincerely hope that they are again banned (as they were for three years) and they are never again able to spread poison like the did to collaboration between me, TRM and SQL.

So Piotrus's post on my talk today[17] was an attempt to leverage the drama created by Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock, by falsely linking it to my rejection of his smears at DRV. I promptly reverted it as trolling, and stand by that label: it was a clear attempt to make mischief by falsely portraying me as the cause of two dramas instigated by others.

Now, please can we end this drama and get back to editing?

SQL and TRM, please be wary of that menace Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock. And Piotrus ... if you making false accusations that another editor is inventing history, and double down at length with FUD tactics ... don't cry "personal attack" when your integrity is challenged. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Well if it's worth anything, I wasn't aware that (a) AAW was a sock and (b) the owner had been IBANned with you. I assume good faith with editors I've never heard of coming to my page. Although I probably should have learnt a lesson from years back when a rather excited admin blocked me for apparently deliberately proxying for a banned editor. Live and (in this case not) learn. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:52, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I wholly accept that. You had no reason at all to know about the IBAN, and your AGF was taken advantage of.

As I wrote above, I think in hindsight that you and me and SQL were all played like violins by Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock's latest attempt to do what he has done successfully for years: create conflict to discredit others. Chris had enough insight to see how to press our buttons, and has enough malice to try to maximise destruction. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:13, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

To be fair to AAW it wasn't technically a sock account - it wasn't block evasion and there wasn't any overlap of the accounts. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:16, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

personal attacks. I don't care whether or not they are blocked, or whether or not they have personally attacked you, those comments are unacceptable and are unbecoming of a Wikipedia editor with as much experience as you. I ask that you strike them, and I am prepared to hand out an NPA block if necessary. GeneralNotability (talk

) 20:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

GeneralNotability Which comments? About his vile vendetta against me? Entirely justified. About his spreading of drama and malice for many years? Entirely justified. I'm sure you noticed his attempt to blame me for his problems during his last meltdown. Stop letting him press your buttons. DuncanHill (talk) 20:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@GeneralNotability: as @DuncanHill notes below, my comments on Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer are entirely based on the facts of his appalling conduct over many years.

It is entirely unacceptable that Wikipedia editors have continued to be exposed for so long to the vendettas of Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer. He chose in this case to knowingly violate an IBAN to pursue a multi-venue attacks on me -- and you are criticising me for describing this? Really? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

PS Note that Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer also violated his IBAN re @DuncanHill by posting repeatedly on Duncan's talks: see the history of Duncan's talk.

Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer is well aware that bot IBANs are in place: see this disastrously botched appeal against his IBANs, last month.

Chris.sherlock/Aussie Article Writer has been actively targeting editors for years. Why do you want the targets of his vendettas to refrain from noting that when he has another swing? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Just to note, I don't think there actually was an IBAN againt AAW with regard to me. There should have been one years ago after an email he sent me, which got one of his then-blocked accounts a loss of email privileges. He regained email by reappearing as another account. DuncanHill (talk) 21:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Note (in case it wasn't clear) User:Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock has been indeffed for their comment on BHG's (not yet live) RfA, despite being IBanned from commenting about her. Black Kite (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
  • There's an earlier personal attack and violation of the IBAN by AAW still on their userpage. Despite the numerous admins watching the page it was allowed to stand. DuncanHill (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I removed that just now. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    Thanks, Black Kite.

    Note that the blocking admin GeneralNotability also posted a followup[18] noting multiple breaches of the IBAN. This was not a one-off strike by Aussie Article Writer/Chris.sherlock; it was more of the vendetta.

• (edit conflicted of course) I find myself reading another ANI thread where things can go one way or another - we could spend a long time quoting each other and end up with someone blocked, or we could try to look at this from an outside perspective. Wikipedia is weird, it causes otherwise lovely people to get rather annoyed about things which often wouldn't cause such a dramatic response (myself included!).

• @BrownHairedGirl: Some of your above comments have merit, others are combatative and have only escalated things. And that's what a lot of this is, on both sides - escalation for very little outcome. Your behaviour has been rude, and regardless of how anyone feels or how justified it may well be, we can do better than be rude. In an ideal world, I'd ask you to please refactor/strike things other people have found to be a personal attack - not on the basis that it may or may not have been one by the letter of some website's policy, but solely because what do you honestly lose by doing so? What we gain though, is de-escalation, and that is worthy of small concessions on a project built on collaboration. I'd also like to note that even though you have been rude, your experience of being harassed and targeted is valid and deserves investigation - everyone should be reminded that being uncivil does not preclude someone from also being the target of harassment, and we must not dismiss someone's claims solely because of the manner in which they present them. I appreciate your attempts at trying to disengage, and understand that sometimes that's easier said than done.
• @Piotrus: I hear you, and I agree that things have been said in a manner which aren't great. I understand that the resolution you would like is for BrownHairedGirl to retract/refactor their statement to you and apologise. I think that is a reasonable thing to request and would help de-escalate things.

• I've tried really hard to hear both sides of this - I don't want to see anyone blocked where the outcome could still be one we learn from. Incivility has no place here, we can do better in how we speak to each other and we can always choose not to escalate a situation. I'm not expecting people to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but stepping away, having a mug of wine tea and working together on this is a good start. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 18:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• TNT, I'll have tea with you, but it's gotta be right fuckin' now! El_C 18:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• @TheresNoTime: thanks for your conscientious attempt to defuse the situation, and for the time and effort you must have spent doing so.

However, I an not willing to refactor my comments in relation to Piotrus unless their allegation that I invented historical fact (and their many followups in similar vein) are clearly withdrawn.

To my mind, that sort of attempt to smear another editor's reasoned objections is many orders of magnitude more destructive than possibly rude words in response. Wikipedia may survive rudeness; but malicious allegations of historical falsification destroy the substance of what we here to do. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• @BrownHairedGirl: What's the outcome you're looking for here? I understand your stance - de-escalation is almost always something that has to happen on both sides. Do we need to look at more IBANs as a way of moving everyone away from each other here? ~TNT (she/they • talk) 18:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @TheresNoTime: Some misunderstanding, maybe? I didn't bring this to ANI, so my only desire here was to defend myself.

  I would be quite happy for his discussion to simply to be closed as "no action needed", and put an end to the timesink. But if you want something specific, then i ask that Piotrus retract all his bogus allegations that I invented an NPOV problem, and the rest of the spinoffs as the dug in deeper. If that happened,then I would of course retract/refactor some of my comments in reply.

  I don't think that any IBAN here would be constructive. This at heart a content issue, where Piotrus has been waging a campaign to discredit anyone who point to complexity and nuance and POV problems in the application of a label which he insists can be objectively determined. That cannot be resolved by constraining Piotrus's interactions with one or more individual editors who have had the temerity to challenge his simple certainties; it needs a change of approach by Piotrus, or their recusal from a topic where they are too heavily emotionally invested to assume good faith in those who say "it's not that simple". Note for example that in the DRV discussion, Piotrus has repeatedly pronounced that those who point to POV issues in the term "political prisoner" are supporting "fringe views", taking a pro-western stance, etc. I will see if I have the energy to collect more diffs, but here's one to start with; Piotrus dismissing as a straw man [19] my assertion[20] that In the case of the

  WP:NPOV. That sort of counter-factual bluster is deeply corrosive battleground conduct, and there was lots of it from Piotrus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs

  ) 19:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @BrownHairedGirl: Evidently action is needed, I was really hoping you'd reflect on the words you've used and come to your own conclusion on their suitability for use. They are not suitable. We're all guilty (myself, recently) of using inappropriate language to describe other editors. We must be better. I'm stepping away from this conversation now as its fairly likely to spiral into ANI-class bullshit, and at 9:30pm I'm more inclined to go put my feet up than continue this. I'm fairly sure this will result in a block, and perhaps it should. BrownHairedGirl, defeat the trend we're seeing on this project and apologise - do better than we've all done previously ~TNT (she/they • talk) 20:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @TheresNoTime: again, I will make no apology for eventually standing up to a sustained attempt by Piotrus to smear and misrepresent editors who accurately pointed to complexity in response to his campaign to erase other perspectives.

  If Wikipedia really is a place where the response to such POV-pushing and bullying is more problematic than the POV-pushing and denialism itself, then it will no longer be an NPOV encyclopedia. Collegial discussion requires open exchange of views and willingness to accept factually-based counter-arguments. I am very troubled by your lack of concern about that conduct, because NPOV is a core policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Should their other accounts get indefblocked as well?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Whose "other accounts" are you referring to? I'm not following. -- llywrch (talk) 22:16, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I assume the now indefinitely blocked Aussie Article Writer.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
      • That was my first thought, but this thread is about BHG, so the referent is ambiguous. -- llywrch (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

        I was indeed talking about other accounts of AAW, and at the time I left this message BHG was not yet blocked.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• I think this thread on SQL's talk page shows a real lack of civility. SQL had already asked BHG to stop contacting them at this point. BHG justified the post by saying that it presented new information. Ok, sure, fine. But SQL replies reiterating clearly that they wish to be left alone and feel BHG's behaviour is approaching harrassment. Even after that BHG leaves another comment. Then SQL asks again for BHG to stop, and then BHG comments again. This is the kind of treatment that drives editors away from the project (cf. Special:Diff/1037702885). Colin M (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
  • For the record, I was close to being driven away from Wikipedia by SQL's stonewalling, both over their initial refusal to recognise that I had been trolled and by their later refusal to even acknowledge that the whole saga had all been stoked by a serial vendetta-monger who breached an IBAN. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:38, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• As far as BRFA/bot processes are concerned: I've never had a bad personal interaction with BHG, but I've noticed she can brush off as a bit verbose/abrasive when in a dispute. Aside from the incident linked to in the OP, there was this extended issue (along with the various spin-offs on other talk pages; and the history since a bunch was redacted by BAG members, eg here). As a result of the incident, the volume of text and the heat-to-light ratio was such that no other BAG member wanted to review the issue, and I'm surprised Primefac made the effort. I think she means well and often identifies an actual problem, but I'd just gently advise this approach is not always particularly helpful, especially when you want BAG attention on something, and it can discourage bot operators (like QEDK, who stopped running the bot and says "I'll probably let it lapse anyway since I have no intention of running a bot on this wiki again"). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: I found that episode absolutely horrible, and it severely dented my faith in BAG.

  The facts of that case were quite simple. A bot was authorised for category-related tasks, the BRFA having been notified at central talk pages. When it began work, it started populating a category which was nominated at CFD, where everyone except that bot operator opposed the bot's work. It was clear that owing to an oversight in notification, there was not actually consensus for its work, but the bot owner dug down and insisted that there was consensus, despite the overwhwelming opposition.

  BAG handled that very badly, focusing on a procedural defence of their initial good faith authorisation, rather than on the current consensus that the bot would do a lot of damage to category redirects. I was horrified by how hard I had to push the simple point that a good-faith assessment of consensus had turned out to be radically mistaken, and that the authorisation needed to be reassessed.

  I felt that QEDK was badly let down by BAG, who supported QEDK's destructive digging-in instead of simply saying "let's pause and reopen discussion". BAG guided EDK into confrontation rather consensus-building, and I am unsurprised that QEDK was disillusioned; I was disillusioned too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  I don't think I quite agree with that reading. I don't want to run this sub-thread too long, but I'll just say that I do think it was largely how you decided to handle the problem, as well as the specific comments you made, that led to the great deal of animus discussion and the bot being retired. In addition, QEDK (unsurprisingly) basically disappeared after that month and he's now largely inactive. Obviously I can't say whether it's connected or not but I'd imagine so. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:16, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: we'll have to differ on that. I tried all the usual gentle steps at escalation, but was repeatedly dismissed and insulted by QEDK, and stonewalled by BAG. The animus arose out of BAG's collective failure to reopen the consensus-building, which required an escalation of pressure to stop the bot doing damage.

  It could all have been so vastly happier for everyone if BAG had simply re-opened consensus-building. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  It appears the bomb robot has tipped at a hill. El_C 19:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, gotta say, after reading the linked threads and all the diffs above, I have to agree with PR and others that your tenor and demeanor appear to be have the opposite effect of what you intend in these discussions. Far from resolving these disputes, it is making them escalate to all-out brawls. I actually agree with you re: the CfD and deletion review discussions linked above, but I agree with others that your behavior is still problematic, regardless of what the right call is in the linked discussions. One can be right, and still be wrong about how they go about being right.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  (I reply against my better judgement...) You say "escalation of pressure" as if you moved a user talk discussion to

  WP:BOTN. I feel the need to emphasise to you, after jogging my memory by reading the diffs again, that the whole affair was the most... ruthless... thing I've seen in the bot space, and I don't think that's an exaggeration. It's not often you see Primefac writing in all-caps. There was a good bot operator trying to work on a legitimate task, three BAG members reviewed (and denied) your complaints, following which your messages towards QEDK included a vile, gaslighting thug, vile, scummy conduct, you systematic mendacity and persistent gaslighting, repeatedly stonewalled, deceived, bullied and gaslighted, whether this bot-owner is competent to run a bot, and those are just excerpts from two comments. You repeated similar stuff over dozens of other comments. Do you honestly not see how this would make another editor feel? Speaking for myself, I'd say that whole affair would be enough to throw in the towel and do something else onwiki, or find a different hobby altogether. It's not how we should figure out problems in a collaborative, volunteer environment. ProcrastinatingReader (talk

  ) 20:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  RE: a vile, gaslighting thug... [etc.] — holy shit! P.S. ProcrastinatingReader, once again, Cow Man says: diffs = friend. El_C 20:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: we are back to the core problem:your assertion that this was a good bot operator trying to work on a legitimate task. I fundamentally disagree on both counts.

  QEDK repeatedly dismissed the objections of all the category regulars, often very insultingly. none of the regular category editors supported him, but he dismissed all the objections. That is not the conduct of a good bot owner.

  Similarly, this was not a "legitimate task". It was a task which had been approved in good faith without notifications treated at the most relevant editors, who objected en masse when they became aware of it. A good faith error was made in approving it, but once such widespread opposition became clear, it was no longer a legit task.

  That's the problem:the way we should figure out problems in a collaborative, volunteer environment is to reopen a decision which turns out to be unexpectedly controversial due to lack of notification. I pleaded for that opportunity to discuss it collaboratively, but was repeatedly rebuffed. When BAG block the collaborative pathway, expect anger in return

  You have quoted me without diffs, which is unfair because I cannot review the context ... but I do recall utterly vile personal attacks from QEDK, to which I was responding. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  Diff for you are again behaving like a vile, gaslighting thug. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 21:08, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  Thank you for the diff. That allows other editors to see my comment in the context of my explanation of the behaviour that I was describing.

  QEDK was indeed behaving like a vile, gaslighting thug. He was ploughing on with a task which clearly did have consensus, and had been lashing out at me in multiple venues. It would be much more productive to read the whole thread than to cherrypick the points where I snapped at the antics. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  (FTR: I did give a diff in my original comment (of Primefac's removal, which contained that comment).)

  I remember reading this and the preceding/related discussions last year, such as on his user talk and though I can't remember all the details, I can remember that (on the whole) I didn't come away with the 'QEDK wasn't listening' impression. I also felt that even his most frustrated response fell short of "utterly vile personal attacks", and he kept his composure better than most of us would've. I think he was trying to listen (see how he responded to Trappist the monk's concern, on the same link), although after a while probably felt you weren't engaging in good faith. The BAG members responding also seemed to be more concerned with what you were saying (eg [21][22]). I also remember QEDK said he paused the bot's activity until BAG gave an all-clear, which removes any sense of urgency in my opinion. I'm not necessarily saying you were wrong about the content issues (I haven't reviewed them in depth, and in general you often are right), I'm just dismayed by your approach and how QEDK was treat. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  In that

  AGF out the window and write something like this comment, which I will quote at length: You have now made your goal crystal clear [...], and your attempt to cast that as my "narrative" or "perception" is a viciously nasty response: it's gaslighting. Please conduct yourself much better. I have seen this pattern before: -manipulation of consensus-formation (by woefully inadequate notification and lack of upfront clarity about goals) and then a belated admissson of the real goal followed by an attempt at gaslighting the objectors. There is no justification for escalating rhetoric like that. "Manipulating consensus", specifically, is a nasty and (in context) unfounded accusation. Enterprisey (talk!

  ) 22:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I've looked at some (but not all) of the diffs, and one thing is clear: BHG needs to learn when to dis-engage with a discussion. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support block (struck; the support was for a temporary block to prevent continuing personal attacks in this thread, those have now stopped User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 01:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)) even if QEDK was indeed behaving like a vile, gaslighting thug is accurate, constantly repeating these personal attacks is degrading to the conversation. Multiple editors have told BHG this. I still haven't read the initial deletion discussion that led to the DRV, but this diff about Piotrus your claim to be a social scientist are false, and that you lack the thinking skills to understand is clearly a personal attack. I don't see any option other than a block. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    For goodness sake, I repeated that comment about QEDK solely because it was dug out of the archives by someone else, and i explained why I used it at the time. My offence here was to defend myself.

    As to the DRV, please read the discussion and see that comment in context. I was being heavily goaded: accused of "inventing" historical facts, of creating a straw man pointing to one of he biggest political crises in Northern Ireland... and eventually I snapped. Your quite here omits both the context of the rest of my comment, and the wider context of the discussion which proceeded it. For the record, Piotrus made multiple claims at both DRV and at CFD to expertise as a social scientist ... yet his conduct of a FUD campaign against inconvenient facts was incompatible with the norms of that profession. So I didn't make a statement 'as quoted: I asked a question about what was was going on, with that as one possible explanation. I can't even quite the whole of what i wrote, because it seems that doing so will be treated as an offence in itself.

    This mining of decontextualized quotes is a terrible way to assess a lengthy discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    I have finished reading the CFD and DRV discussions. As this is a dispute over content that has turned into a behavior dispute, I will give my opinion on both. Both BHG and Piotrus are bludgeoning the DRV discussion. There is certainly a philosophical dispute regarding how categories should be used regarding controversial classifications. Whether or not

    WP:SUBJECTIVECAT applies to prohibit Category:Political prisoners is the topic of the open DRV. BHG's specific question of whether Bobby Sands would be in the category is a relevant one to that discussion, and Piotrus should not have insisted that there be an ongoing dispute on a Wikipedia talk page before it be considered. That said, Piotrus's suggestion that modern scholarship and not just contemporaneous opinions be considered is reasonable (we would certainly do so for 19th century political prisoners), and I don't see how that implies he is POV-pushing. With any amount of context, the your claim to be a social scientist are false comment is needlessly inflammatory; please do not insist that comment is appropriate. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν

    ) 23:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

    @力: It was a final-straw response to Piotrus's repeated claims that I was "inventing" the issue as a "straw man". I am glad that you agree that it is not. But can you understand how I was goaded by the repeated attempts to erase the issue and cast me as a liar,as well as by the wider bludgeoning?

    Of course, the views of contemporary scholars should be represented in the article, along with the views of the protagonists and contemporary observers and scholars. But to single one of those perspectives out as the "fact" summarised in a category entry or omitted from the category is a distortion of multi-polar reality.

    One of the issues here is cultural. Poland has moved far to the right, and its rejection of the communist era is complete; everything from that period is viewed by the vast majority as bad. Ireland has moved from centuries of conflict into a very different space, where everything is about creating space for two traditions to co-exist. So we are very much in a space of multi-polar narratives,and allowing all POVs to be heard, and not requiring a single official truth. It's fuzzy and complex,but least we not shooting each other no more.

    I don't expect outsiders to understand that, but I do expect that they at least try to educate themselves before denouncing it as fabrication. I remain highly alarmed that someone who claims to be a social scientist has been bludgeoning an en.wp discussion to insist that there is only one POV and no subjectivity. That pursuit of rigid certainty is the polar opposite of the critical analysis of complexity that I expect from social science, and I can't reconcile the two things I see. If I had been less goaded by the repeated malignment and by the repeated denial of a POV divide on the issue, I would probably have expressed my concern more cautiously, but that's not the situation I found myself in. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

    The second quote needs a bit more context, but is not much better with it. BHG is saying that either QEDK is lying about being a social scientist and lacks thinking skills or that you intentionally engaged in a FUD campaign to misrepepresent some simple, core facts because they don't suit your POV-pushing agenda. I unfortunately recognize this sort of dichotomy from some of BHG's previous comments which were cited in the Portals arbcom case. Examples of it being applied to three different editors: one, two, three. Colin M (talk) 22:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support block. I think the community is often naïve about the damage that power-users with chronic civility issues do to the movement. Editors like BHG drive away others in a manner that adds up to much more lost effort than they can ever contribute on their own. Even for the rare editor who is a net-positive despite chronic civility issues (which I don't believe BHG to be), it sends a message to other users when we let them continue editing—a message that creates a chilling effect. It's really easy to not call people things like "vile". If someone can't manage that bare minimum, they shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, whether they have 2 edits or 2,000,000. Until BHG can show that she understands CIV and NPA, and understands that they apply even when the other person was a jerk to you, and even when you feel you are in the right, she should not be editing. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 21:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• Uh, at what point did blocking enter this discussion?. I don't see a reason to block anyone. I do see some good reasons for certain editors to step way from interacting with each other, though. Black Kite (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  I must confess I started it (possibly sooner than helpful); I've simply seen enough comments where it appears BHG is defending their personal attacks by repeating them. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• It is quite unpleasant to be a participant in any conflict with BrownHairedGirl. She insists she is right, she is quick to assume bad faith and rarely backs down from that, and she is absolutely terrible at de-escalation. The fault is always with others (who "goad" her). She seems to have learned nothing from the Portals case (the discussion surrounding a block preceding that case is quite comparable to what we have today). I tend to avoid her if possible (fortunately our interests don't overlap much). BHG has gotten away with bullying and incivility for a very long time because she has many supporters, and ANI in particular has historically been spectacularly useless with respect to BHG, who has been allowed to continue and repeat her behaviour here. There is not a problem of Piotrus/BHG or one of SQL/BHG or one of QEDK/BHG (or earlier NA1k/BHG) that could be solved by mutual voluntary or involuntary interaction bans, it is a problem with BHG. She could end these conflicts by disengaging, but either chooses not to or is unable to. Both are bad for a collaborative environment. —Kusma (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  As someone who has had a somewhat heated disagreement with BHG about renaming some categories or other (something like that), I really can't say I recognise that description of her. She stands up for what she believes in, and she challenges bullies. She has never shewn any signs of bearing me a grudge for our disagreement. DuncanHill (talk) 23:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• @BrownHairedGirl:: There are many examples of personal attacks by you, above (and elsewhere). It would really be helpful if you could acknowledge that, and agree to moderate your behavior. Paul August ☎
• Well said Kusma — Ched (talk) 23:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• Kusma and others said it well. Uncivil, rude and abrasive behavior creates a toxic environment on enwiki and already drove many good editors out of this project. Sadly, BHG has a history of repeatedly assuming bad faith and being quite rude and uncivil towards others. Unless something changes in her behavior, I am in favor of adopting sanctions towards her. - Darwinek (talk) 01:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Late, for sure. I haven't felt like being on Wikipedia much, and I really didn't want to go back through this, but I thought it might help give context from my point of view. Should this be in it's own section?
  • This started when I came to Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BHGbot 8. This was the page when I arrived: [23]
    • There appeared to be two editors (BHG (not pinging, BHG seemed not to want further contact from me - and I will respect that), and The Rambling Man) having an argument about things unrelated to the BRFA at hand. This can be very disruptive, and I felt that I was in a good position to stop it early on.
    • I went ahead and collapsed the argument: [24]. The message I left was "Arument between editors irrelevant to this request. Please take behavioral issues, accusations of trolling, and complaints of personal attacks to the appropriate venues.".
  • Immediately after, I was contacted by AAW and TRM [25].
    • I actually feel in hindsight that maybe I didn't do very well here. I was short with both of them, when I shouldn't have been. I also made a mistake and warned AAW that I had asked them not to comment on my talkpage. I was remembering the wrong editor from years ago. They've changed usernames so many times that I had a hard time keeping up. I apologized to them on thier talkpage, as one does when they've made a mistake [26].
    • It is worth noting that AAW and I have not really gotten along in the past - and I had opposed thier unblock a few years back.
  • Shortly after, BHG started editing the collapsed section to take a potshot at TRM (edit summary "reply to troll"). [27]
    • This is clearly disruptive to the BRFA, and is in my opinion a personal attack.
  • I left a message with BHG asking her to stop [28].
  • I tried again to explain why BHG's edits were disruptive. [29]
  • I tried again to explain that the reason I didn't leave messages for TRM was that they stopped at my request on the BRFA page. [30]
  • BHG baselessly accuses me of harassment [31]
  • I asked BHG to rescind her accusation, and stated that I had done no such thing. [32]
  • I informed BHG that I had no further desire to communicate until the false accusation of harassment had been retracted. I asked at this point that she stop pinging me. I was clearly watching the page, and did not require a ping with every message. [33]
  • Not getting a reply from me at her talkpage, BHG started a thread at my talkpage [34].
  • I asked BHG to stop contacting me again. [35]
    • I plainly stated "Leave me alone.", and indicated that I was starting to feel harassed.
  • BHG contacted me again, and indicated that she did not believe her baseless accusation of harassment was a PA. [36]
    • BHG claimed that I had gone "several rounds" at her. I was just trying to reply to her messages, until it appeared that no matter what I said, it would be twisted, and I would be attacked.
  • I ask again to be left alone. [37]
  • I'd had enough. I hung up a wikibreak/frustrated template, and nullrouted wikipedia. [38]
  • After being repeatedly asked to leave me alone, BHG felt the need to get the last word in. [39]
  • I'm sorry for the long read. ^{!ɘM γɿɘυϘ}⅃ϘƧ 11:27, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• When I initially commented on this thread it was far shallower. I see now just how deep this rabbit hole goes. I do not intend to read all of this. I will just say that I am no longer confident in my opinion and don't have the time or intention to give this topic the research it deserves to make a confident statement. Apologies to anyone I offended if I got things wrong, that being said I am also not confident I am wrong(or right). HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Blocked

• BHG can't really respond now that she has been blocked for a week. I was so stunned I had to make an uncomfortable trek back to ANI to try to find out why and how this happened. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not defending BHG's abrasive style of interacting with editors she believes are incorrect about interpreting Wikipedia policy but I have to say that when it comes to categories and understanding how they are and should be used on Wikipedia, she is never wrong. And that's my POV. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose action against BHG, I can't believe I even have to say this but nothing here rises to the level of a block. Not every ANI discussion needs to break into a support/oppose discussion. Rumbling for a block because someone is a "power user" is not part of the blocking policy. Christ the things we let certain users get away with and then people try to bring the hammer down down relatively minor venting because of who they are. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Aaaand I see GeneralNotability has gone ahead and done it already. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I've got a whole load of respect for you HighInBC, but excusing behaviour (like this?) as "relatively minor venting because of who they are" is a fairly substantial understatement. I don't believe expecting base civility is really that much to ask ~TNT (she/they • talk) 23:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I was saying her venting was minor. And I was saying they are being targeted by some for who they are, ie a "power user". I have seen truthful statements about serious harassment that has resulted in the user doing that harassment IBANned from the community and later blocked indef. And I have seen minor comments like referring to editing as trolling. Not giving anyone a free pass because of who they are, but I also think they should not be targeted for who they are. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 23:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Calling someone a troll is not minor. Paul August ☎ 23:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It is if they are trolling. DuncanHill (talk) 23:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh come on. So it's ok to call someone an asshole as long as you think that's what they are? Every personal attack can be justified that way. Paul August ☎

Ever heard of a duck? DuncanHill (talk) 23:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Sigh...

WP:NPA says: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor." It doesn't add the caveat: "unless of course they deserve it." Paul August ☎

00:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Pull the other one... DuncanHill (talk) 00:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what that means. Are you trying to be rude? Paul August ☎ 00:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Paul August: If I were trying you would surely know. DuncanHill (talk) 00:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

"Pull the other one, it's got bells on" is a traditional extension of "you're pulling my leg" in British English. Don't you have this in America? Perhaps Peppa Pig's missionary work will get round to it. Johnbod (talk) 01:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@DuncanHill With all due respect and to avoid confusion, since BHG has called several editors trolls here. Do you believe I was trolling? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Well you started this dismal thread, make of that what you will. What I do think is that 99% of the criticism here wouldn't have started without AAW's baiting. DuncanHill (talk) 00:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

DuncanHill, Duncan, I don't know AAW, I don't believe I interacted with them nor that they participated in the deletion discussion that me and BHW did. If your comment was about AAW only, so be it, but since as you say, the tread has been started by me and concerns comments directed at me, and since you didn't answer clearly above, I ask you again: do you believe I was trolling, or not: yes, or no? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I think most of the editors calling for BHG to be blocked are (presumably unknowingly) being triggered by AAW. Now, It's perfectly possible to have a legitimate discussion about "how can we help BHG respond more emolliently to those who dislike her", but this discussion ain't it. DuncanHill (talk) 00:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@DuncanHill While you may be right about some editors not being familiar with AAW, my question to you, for the third time, is whether you agree or disagree with BHG calling me a troll. Seriously, a simple yes or no is not that hard here; and if it helps, here's the exact diff in which she called me a "troll".

As for the word dislike you use, I'd also like to note that it suggests some folks (like myself) dislike BHG. I'd kindly suggest refactoring your statement, as for one, I don't feel it's fair or correct to describe me as an editor who "dislikes" her; so may I suggest the phrase "how can we help BHG respond more emolliently to those who disagree with her" instead? Bonus points for changing emolliently into something that most spellcheckers will recognize, like "positively" or "less combatively" or such. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I am truly sorry you have an inadequate spell-checker. I will flagellate myself accordingly. DuncanHill (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: I would also like to know if you think it was ok to call Piotrus a troll? Not answering Piotrus’ question seems to imply you do. If you don’t it would be helpful if you said so. Paul August ☎ 01:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you want me to say? DuncanHill (talk) 01:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Self quote: my question to you, for the third time, is whether you agree or disagree with BHG calling me a troll. Seriously, a simple yes or no is not that hard here _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Has the cock crowed three times? DuncanHill (talk) 03:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus please consider disengaging from this absolute train wreck you have caused. I will AGF that you didn’t know the background but must know by now. Mr Ernie (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I am DuncanHill and I endorse this message. DuncanHill (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mr Ernie Please note that my dispute with BHG has NOTHING to do with any misbehavior by some AAW (if this it the background you are referring to, no, I didn't know about it, still don't know it, and it is not relevant here. I, therefore, quote this right back at you: "I will AGF that you didn’t know the background" - so please read my OP to familiarize yourself with it). Please tell me how I caused any problem? I was called names, including troll, in a discussion totally unrelated to any "AAW", and I find being called such names quite offensive. I have stated my case (I don't like being called a troll, and if someone calls me that, I expect them to apologize, or have their conduct subject to scrutiny by the community). Nothing more, nothing less.

I will nonetheless disengage myself from this sub-thread, which is indeed hardly constructive, and ping User:Paul August who asked the same question, and is clearly a less involved and neutral party than I am. Whether they want to pursue this in the capacity of an uninvolved administrator or not is up to them (as well as other uninvolved parties). For the record, I find the behavior of editors who are empowering others to call people names, or otherwise clowning around, quite unbecoming of the proper wikiquette, and worthy of admin's attention. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

RE: or otherwise clowning around. And now I'm sad. Honestly, though, Piotrus, I did ask for you to make your OP more legible (diff), but I guess didn't want...? El_C 04:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @El C: Responding to direct ping. I will strike that out, if you find it less than ideal of a descriptor for edits like [40] (I mean, isn't it a reference to the jester's hat? c'mon), [41] or [42]. The emotions are getting too heated in this and as I said, I am leaving this subdiscussion to more neutral parties. I am nonetheless disappointed that you find the quoted part to be the most objectionable part of the comments here. As for my OP, I thought blue makes it easier, not harder, to read. I mean, green is ok for quotes but blue is not? Personally I find blue more readable than green... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: (ec) I can assure you that [43] has nothing to do with a jester's hat. Even a jester does not wear his hat on his leg. DuncanHill (talk) 04:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I thought you were insulting Cow Man's integrity, so I felt compelled to retaliate. The thing is, though, it isn't about the colours per se., but the way lengthy hyperlinked text is displayed. Just letting you know that I kept waiting for you to fix it, and greatly delayed reading it as a result (and I really am trying to work on reading reports from the beginning, see "fundamentalist" thread above for more on that). I am nonetheless disappointed that you find the quoted part to be the most objectionable part of the comments here — I think my comment here shows that not to be the case. El_C 04:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

El C, I hope this is what you wanted. If I totally misunderstood you and this is worse, feel free to revert, and/or show me a report or such formatted in a way that you think is best practice. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: 👍 El_C 05:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Ps. One more note. Having reviewed the "AAW" incident more, it seems to me that User:DuncanHill has been subject to some harassment from that editor, if I understand this correctly (I apologize if I am wrong). I am still not sure what BHG has to do with this case, or how the "AAW" incident became a part of this discussion. As someone who has been subject to serious harassment myself, I want to assure DH that I am not defending any editor who might have harassed him or anyone else, and I express my sympathy for any harassment that occurred that the community did not stop promptly enough. My disagreement with BHG had nothing to do with anyone called "AAW" or their alt account/sock. To make it clear, I feel a victim of harassment here, as in, a victim of personal attacks from BHG (such as her calling me a troll), originating in a discussion that, to repeat myself again, had, to the best of my knowledge, nothing to do with anyone called "AAW". I certainly do not defend any harassment aimed at DW, and all I am asking is that he extends the same courtesy to myself. I hope this clears most, if not all, of any misunderstanding here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

"Some harassment" is an astounding understatement. BHG was one of very few editors to have the decency to stand up to AAW on my behalf. She is an editor who lays into bullies, not is one. DuncanHill (talk) 04:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

DuncanHill, As I said, I am not familiar with your case. If BGH helped you with your problem, that's commendable. But the topic here is something else (her less than helpful comments towards or about other editors). If someone helps you, that's good, but it does not make them an infallible saint beyond reproach. If you are on good terms with BHG, I'd suggest you try to talk her down and help her moderate her behavior, so she can continue helping others without hurting them (as she did to me, and yes, I consider myself quite hurt by her comments). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say to block her because she's a power user. I said to block her because's she's chronically incivil, and that the fact that she's a power user shouldn't make her exempt. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose block or any action — FWIW, BHG is an extremely productive editor and a net positive. Some (or most) of her comments are acerbic and abrasive(I’ve run afoul of this, so I’m no saint myself) Her obnoxious comments(incivility) are what largely led to her de-sysop. I find that BHG is always more often than not the cause of their own calamity for example BHG claims she wants a reasonable outcome from this ANI(closed as action needed) but her refusal to see or claim some responsibility to what this is spiraling into is very contradictory to the aforementioned stance. @BrownHairedGirl, could you just apologize to the relevant parties even if you feel you ought not to do so? That is, if you indeed want a reasonable outcome from this ANI, I for one would never support a block and I’m not sure why, how or when that premature proposal was made. Believe me, i know first hand what it feels like to be “correct” and still need to apologize, that way you show maturity and a sincere wish for all this to be over and you return back to normal editing. Like I always say at ANI's I’m saddened when productive editors are at loggerheads with a potential block looming, whilst there are real and more serious problems affecting the encyclopedia. Furthermore can you learn to not to edit when in a sour mood? Also could you learn to use less abrasive words (which can be seen as PA's) when addressing editors like I stated earlier, there isn’t any universe in which I’d ever support a block, you an extremely productive editor, don’t let ego get in your way. Celestina007 (talk) 23:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose block responses to baiting initiated by AAW were remarkably restrained. DuncanHill (talk) 23:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
• Sit it out While BHG is indeed a net positive editor and a main contributor to this project, I hate rude editors, so even though I would never have supported a block proposal, perhaps she should sit this one out and understand that being rude and refusing to back down from a conflict situation is not good practice on a community editing website. Debresser (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

  I concur Debresser, just sit it out. Right now, the emotions are high. BHG should not have used such language (troll, etc.) but, people have bad days sometimes. I'm quite certain that BHG, in a day or two, will agree that she made a mistake. Will you BHG? That's all lacked here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• BHG is not bullying and that isn't her intent at all. When she doesn't feel listened to, she gets increasingly frank and blunt, up to and far beyond the point of rudeness, and she doesn't get when it's time to drop the stick. (Piotrus isn't so great at dropping the stick either: that DRV is, by word count, about 40% comments by him.) Piotrus is able to disagree without so much incivility and that makes him more pleasant to work with. Unlike BHG, Piotrus also has the social skills to de-escalate conflict. He hasn't chosen to use them in this matter, and I'd like to know why not.
  Although I'm confident that Creffett's block was intended as preventative, I think there's an opportunity for him to read the room and reflect on whether to reduce it to time served.—S Marshall T/C 23:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Wowsers, does

• No. The nature of DRV is that everything it considers is contentious, and a lot of it is fraught, but that much drama is unusual.—S Marshall T/C 23:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• I've always gotten along well with both of these editors, and it's unpleasant to see two people who you like and who are unabiguously net positives on the encyclopedia at each other's throats like this. Reyk _YO! 10:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Just now, another editor in the Deletion Review complained about BrownHairedGirl's comment: [44]. BrownHairedGirl, seriously please, halt commenting about others on those talk pages. You are a such valuable contributor --> (
  List of women cabinet ministers of the Republic of Ireland), with just this one poor habit. It's so simple to fix. - GizzyCatBella🍁
  06:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

No. That DRV is supposed to be a review of User:Fayenatic london’s XfD close. That DRV has gone crazy of the rails. That does not usually happen. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Unblock

• (edit conflict) Llywrch has unblocked BrownHairedGirl entirely out of process. ~TNT (she/they • talk) 00:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• @
  involved in the whole thing. Not looking good. Urge you to self-revert before someone makes a case of it. ~TNT (she/they • talk
  ) 00:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I am involved in this only insofar as trying to prevent a long-term Wikipedian from being prematurely sanctioned. I, for one, am still trying to understand what the basis for all of this is. I respect both Piotrus & BHG; for the record, I have met Piotrus in person, but never have BHG, so if I favor any party in this it would be for the OP. When two long-term Wikipedians clash like this, we need to understand exactly what has happened. And waiting for a consensus to emerge here is hardly an unreasonable expectation. Lastly, I will abide by the decision made by whoever closes this thread. -- llywrch (talk) 00:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry, llywrch, but that's a pretty weird explanation. Undoing another admin's block without attempting to engage said admin 1st is not great, as far as admin conduct is concerned. El_C 00:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) BHG had requested an unblock, I responded to that request. Had there been no request, of course I would not have unblocked her. First I knew it was a firm rule to discuss a requested unblock with the blocking admin first. As I have written, all of this is moving way too fast. -- llywrch (talk) 01:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Blocking admin had already been objected to, and had not bothered to respond. DuncanHill (talk) 01:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Llywrch has unblocked on the basis Active & ongoing thread in WP:AN/I about this user. No action should be taken *until* that discussion is concluded, which is not a reason I've ever heard of to reverse another admin's actions without consensus. Llywrch, you should self-revert. This is an inappropriate circumstance to unilaterally unblock. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC) typo corrected 00:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I've a prejudice against presenting a sentence first then verdict afterwards. If any sanction is needed to protect the Wiki, it can wait until we've come to a consensus here. -- llywrch (talk) 00:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• For what it is worth, I would've written something endorsing that block until it was lifted. And I agree with Tamzin says above. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 00:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• @
  WP:RAAA. I strongly encourage you to self-revert until a consensus has emerged. ST47 (talk
  ) 00:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• I strongly agree with Kusma. I have never even interacted with BHG, but just seeing the vitriol she is allowed to direct at other editors again and again dampens my enthusiasm for the project. (And no, I don't believe it can all be explained as "fighting back against the trolls". SQL did nothing that begins to approach trolling, and was still treated very badly.) When we allow this kind of incivility, it emboldens would-be bad actors and scares away editors who want to work in a respectful, collegial environment. If she cannot even recognize that she has done anything wrong and intends to continue the same behaviour, I see no solution other than a block. Colin M (talk) 00:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• There is a big discussion and disagreement, I don't think any admin should be taking action until there is a consensus here to do so. Yes the rules allow admins to act unilaterally, the rules allow admins to reverse such actions. That is where it stops though. Perhaps we can finish the discussion and let the community decide, or not decide to take action. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 00:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• I don't know what the fix is but this is not a one-off issue. In addition to all the stuff above and Kusma's list, I also remember hatting a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Signatures#RfC:_usernames_in_signatures (Praxidicae/BHG); there was also this ANI (RexxS/BHG) which was largely the same stuff. There are probably many others. They occur frequently, and go back years. It's demonstrably led to editors retiring. I think the gist of it is that BHG forgets she is talking to real people when she feels passionately about a content dispute. I suppose the community has the right to decide what it will and won't tolerate. And if it's willing to tolerate calling fellow contributors "vile thugs" etc, without even assurances of a change, then so be it; that's the culture we sow and enable. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:13, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Regarding the personal attacks, yes calling someone a troll is a personal attack. If we blocked users everytime they did that then there would be a LOT of blocks given out. Our NPA policy suggests warnings for such offenses. It only allows for blocks when there are egregious personal attacks or ongoing personal attacks that are not corrected by warning.
  If you want our NPA policy to have more teeth then go to
  WT:NPA and propose that, I may even support it. Until then we should enforce the policy as it is written. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.}
  00:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

HighInBC, Our NPA policy suggests warnings for such offenses. It only allows for blocks when there are egregious personal attacks or ongoing personal attacks that are not corrected by warning. I think it has been suitably demonstrated above that this has been part of an egregious, ongoing issue that has not been corrected by warning. I seriously believe a warning would've done next to nothing, given the history here. I don't get your point about calling other users "trolls"; that is usually a phrase reserved for vandals/obvious not here cases, so In my eyes, calling an established user a troll is essentially comparing them to a vandal- which I would imagine some would find offensive. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 00:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@HighInBC: Interesting. Do you really see the issue here as a one-off incident that is correctable with a warning? The evidence here and at places like the Arbcom case suggests otherwise. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

ongoing personal attacks that are not corrected by warning. That sounds like exactly what happened here. BHG has standing unretracted PAs against what, three editors right now? Piotrus, AAW, and QEDK? Most editors would have been blocked at one. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 00:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tamzin: BHG's comments about AAW are entirely justified, and anyone objecting to them is defending one of the worst trolls we have ever known.DuncanHill (talk) 00:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Many of the comments referenced in this thread were not about AAW. ST47 (talk) 00:46, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

But resulted ultimately from his triggering. DuncanHill (talk) 00:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

No, calling an asshole an asshole still violates

WP:NPA, and does no good. And objecting to calling an asshole an asshole is not the same as defending the asshole. Paul August ☎

00:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

To put it in a way you may find appealing: "Those are not the comments you are looking for". (And for everyone else: "Those are not the comments my complaint in the OP were about"). I complained about comments directed at me (and also noted comments directed at TRM and SQL). I never said anything about any comments directed at someone called AAW. I hope this clears part of the misunderstanding we seem to be having? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Four. ^{!ɘM γɿɘυϘ}⅃ϘƧ 00:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with Colin M above: if she cannot even recognize that she has done anything wrong and intends to continue the same behaviour, then we have a serious problem. Paul August ☎ 00:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Sorry, was napping. HighInBC, while I personally wouldn't have endorsed a block at this stage, I agree with my learned colleagues above that this is a bad unblock. P.S. I see that the diff I asked was was provided (thanks, TNT). And it is from Aug 2020. See, this is why we can't have nice things (and why Cow Man runs over refs, probably). El_C 00:26, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I thought the Wild West days of Wikipedia were over. The block was at best premature, & at worst a vicious action that will drive away one more valuable, long-term volunteer from the project at a time when we need experienced contributors. When Piotrus opened this thread, there had been no discussion of anyone being blocked; then 力 announces out of the blue "Support block"; & less than 3 hours later BHG is blocked to the surprise of all. This is moving so fast, that I'm having trouble not only keeping up, but typing explanations without encountering edit conflicts. (And I touch type.) If everyone wants to block her, then make it clear that is what is being discussed. Otherwise, let's proceed on this much slower. -- llywrch (talk) 00:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Actually, llywrch, GN declared their intention to block on 16:35, while 力's comment was on 17:35. But I'm not really following the logical inference between these two components, to begin with, tbh. El_C 01:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The declared intention to block was for being honest about a troll, and had been objected to, and those objections had not been answered. We could add GN's failure to act on a personal attack by AAW to our understanding of this. DuncanHill (talk) 01:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Duncan, you keep bringing that point up as if, merely by virtue of being an admin aware of the issue, GN somehow inherited an affirmative obligation to personally clean up every aspect of another editor's disruption to the complete satisfaction of every observer. That's just not a reasonable complaint. GN blocked (in fact, indeffed) Chris for their blatant harassment: how is that a "failure to act"? I just don't think this nitpicking grievance has legs, and (with so many moving parts her--concerns for the community to consider, and interests to weigh), that this is helping things. Indeed, I would like to suggest that you're being a little too vociferous in your defense here in general, and maybe not doing BHG any favours with that approach. It really does seem as though your shared experience with regard to Chris has bonded the two of you together in a sense of outrage--which is absolutely understandable, in the circumstances. But there are absolutely issues here which the community needs to resolve which are quite independent of the nexus of the disruption related to Chris, and a lot of your commentary above seems to evidence that because you perceive some of the events that fore-ran this discussion as unfair to BHG, you're just going to go full-throated on defense of her on every point.

Again, I'm not sure that's in her best interest, even just in the short run with regard to this thread. If the community agreed that the circumstances around this dispute completely obviated the need for this thread, it would already be closed. Clearly there is a perception that the situation is not that simple. And I'm frankly a little concerned that some of your behaviour here could be perceived as stonewalling and that frustration with that could get transferred to BHG, and your efforts here could have the opposite of the effect you intended. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 02:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

So you think I shouldn't point out the background of the case? Well, fair goes, it's a position. Not one I could ever take with regard to anyone or anything at all, but a position none the less. GN had an obligation (as any admin does) to act decently and transparently, and they failed so to do, as far as I can see. Also, and I dare say this is a cultural difference, I find it hard to deal with anyone who uses the word "nexus" in cold blood. DuncanHill (talk) 04:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Cold blood? What on earth are you even talking about, now? A nexus is an area overlap, nothing more: it's a completely innocuous and neutral term without anything remotely approaching prejudicial or pejorative subtext. How are you taking offense to that? For the record, this is precisely the point I was trying to raise with you: these little "don't back down in the slightest" fights that you are picking throughout this thread are going to antagonize people who are on the fence here with regard to BHG, and then she is going to reap the "benefit" of being associated with your approach, while you pat yourself on the back, convinced you are her number one friend and ally in this. As someone who would rather see an outcome that doesn't involve BHG blocked, I am asking you sincerely to reconsider your attitude and approach here. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Needlessly obscure and high-falutin', that's what I should have said. You don't care for my attitude and approach, and I don't care for yours. DuncanHill (talk) 12:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The difference being, I haven't posted in this thread 27 times in the first day. It gets disruptive at a point, you know? Any necessary "background" you felt you needed to add, you've had every opportunity now. The need to register a (often aggressively confrontational) response to every facet of the discussion is not helpful to BHG's case: best intentions for her benefit not withstanding, you're adding more heat than light, and all you're going to accomplish is to harden positions and exhaust patience, which is not the kind of mood we need prevailing here... That's my second and last effort to rephrase this for you in a fashion you can accept. You can just immediately dismiss it out of hand again if you must, but if you are really here for BHGs sake, and not for some need of your own, you'd at least consider the possibility that showing more restraint is the best way you can help her at this point. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 13:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I remember a very astute remark by Colin (on an unrelated issue). I will quote it since it's particularly insightful: I wish [X]'s friends had been this keen to remark on "extremely ill-considered" comments posted by [X] over the years. [X] might have learned to moderate things, if his friends had a wee word with him about it from time to time, and ask[ed] him to strike some things like we see here, or apologise. When [X] ... showed persistent hostility to those he disagreed with, those actions hurt other editors, real people, who are what Wikipedia is just as much as article content. The arbs have to consider those people too. "[X]" may be substituted with the name of anyone who finds themselves in this position, with vocal defenders. If people put the same amount of energy in getting through to their colleagues, to encourage them to make some changes, perhaps we'd never find ourselves in these unpleasant dilemmas at all. What a pleasant time that would be. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for repeating that, it echoes my thoughts for a long time. Often when these sort of disputes arise there a number of editors opposing a block or asking for an unblock etc, and offering support on the editor's talk page, re-affirming the view it was a rogue admin or the editor got unlucky etc. While I understand this and it's often reasonable, from what I've seen too often even when they recognise the editor's behaviour is a problem they don't make this clear enough to the editor concerned. Depending on the situation, it may be reasonable to wait a while for the editor to have time to calm down from the situation or maybe do it in some other case, but IMO it's important that the editor get a clear message even from supporters that their behaviour needs improvement. Noting that putting aside harm to the community if the editor doesn't improve, it likely harms the editor themselves since it means they have to deal with more of these threads, and worse will suffer escalating blocks. It isn't something those who are opposed to the editor can do, both because it won't be received the same way but also because in a number of situations it will be seen as grave dancing or trying to provoke the editor which is fair enough. Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

One finally comment that in this particular case, one thing I find particularly harmful is the way there seems to be a focus on AAW. There seems to be no question that AAW's behaviour has been terrible. However AAW's behaviour does not explain or excuse BHG's terrible behaviour, especially not towards other editors editing in good faith. Even giving some leeway for BHG losing their cool given provocations by AAW and unfortunately lashing out in all directions, this does not explain why BHG continues to defend their terrible behaviour on this thread. I would add I'm pretty sure that AAW was not involved when BHG showed terrible behaviour in the way they dealt with QEDK. And AAW was still blocked for a lot of the time BHG was showing the same terrible behaviour during the portal mess. I personally wish this hadn't been the case which become this sprawling thread since it means there's way too much talk of AAW and a risk BHG may escape sanction which means the next thread will likely get less attention because people are sick of it until finally one day it ends up at arbcom or BHG does something which breaks the camel's back and some action results we which may have gotten here if there wasn't the AAW mess confusing things. In any case, if the result is short of an indef or cban, I strongly urge BHG's supporters to make it clear to her that while she has all of our strongest sympathies, particularly her friends and supporters, for what she went through with AAW, it does not excuse her terrible behaviour towards others, especially continuing a few days after AAW was blocked and she really needs to cut out that behaviour if she wants to continue to edit here. Because, I think nearly everyone here desires a situation where BHG continues to productively edit but without the behaviour that keeps getting her in trouble. If she has the chance to do that going forward, and she needs to take that chance because it's not going to last forever. While that's on her, her supporters should go beyond making sure she has that chance, they should make it clear to her in no uncertain terms she needs to take it if she gets it rather than making her think it's all okay, it was nearly all on AAW who is gone now. Because if she gets the latter message instead, it seems far less likely she will take the chance given. Nil Einne (talk) 00:45, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Llywrch, Your unblock felt very much like a "Wild West" thing. You did not consult the blocking admin, and your assertion that the block was "premature" seems like a premature thing to say in itself. I get you were trying to de-escalate maybe, but I believe your actions have only caused more issues. On your point about "Driving away long-term productive editors"; I can name at least two users (Not AAW) who fall into that category who seriously considered leaving/did leave upon negative encounters with BHG. But yes the edit conflicts are annoying, this is why I hate getting into these discussions. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 01:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Why, to take just one example of a civility thread still on this page, was #MjolnirPants incivility a warning, but this was a block? I understand why those two situations should be treated the same (whether warning or sanction), but I don't understand why we treat them differently. Levivich 01:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  In my observation it seems to be because some members of the Wikipedia community are biased. It's ok to let MPants be incivil because Wikipedia wants his enemies banned from editing, but User:BrownHairedGirl does not get that same protection because the opposition are treated as valuable contributors. 02:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

  Jesus fuck, dude, get off my dick. Go do something that isn't about me, for fuck's sake, or I'm going to start a new ANI thread with your name in it.

  Tell me all about it.

  13:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  The community should be aware that there was a comment here added by MjolnirPants [45] which was then removed by Moneytrees [46]. 19:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

  Instead of removing this obvious taunting I'll leave it up and strike it. I should've struck/redacted Mjolnir's post as well instead of removing it, so I will re add and strike it. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 00:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

  Based on this AN/I discussion, it seems that one of two conclusions can be drawn -- either enforcement of

  WP:NPA is bizarrely inconsistent, or I am utterly incapable of understanding what constitutes a personal attack. jp×g

  21:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Is enforcement of civility policies inconsistent? OMG, let's alert the news media! Who would have thought?! But whatever the outcome is here, gratuitously bringing up another thread, about someone else, makes the logical error of assuming that both situations were the same. That, and

  WP:2WRONGS. --Tryptofish (talk

  ) 22:26, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Then let's start making it consistent. Let's come up with a set of rules and apply them equally to BHG, me, and everyone else. There are multiple open incivility threads on this page right now, let's deal with them together. Same rules for everyone. Same consequences for everyone. Whatever they may be. Levivich 22:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Sure, a good topic for its own discussion, and one that should be framed as applying to everyone, as opposed to highlighting a single editor, who was not otherwise a topic of this discussion. Oh, and do you remember when you accused me of "clutching my pearls" over a personal attack against me? (That's a rhetorical question, and I'm not really interested in your answer.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Yes, but remember that in that thread, Cow Man was at the helm. And he's kind of a wuss, ultimately (sad but true). El_C 01:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm curious why Cow Man supports a block here but not there? I mean, sincere question, I don't perceive the difference. (For the record, I think either a block or a warning would have been a justifiable outcome in all three threads.) Levivich 01:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
      • Self quote: while I personally wouldn't have endorsed a block at this stage, I agree with my learned colleagues above that this is a bad unblock (diff). El_C 01:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
        • D'oh, I misread that as "would have endorsed" instead of "wouldn't."  Self-trout Carry on, Cow Man! Levivich 01:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Good question, Levivich, and the answer is that the peanut gallery protects its own. Some people are just too popular to block. In response to your question we see the user make another personal attack that an admin, rather than warning or sanctioning in response to, decides to remove without comment. And this is one of the admins I have a great amount of respect for. — Bilorv (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• I don't really understand why Llyrch unblocked in the middle of this discussion; there was no obvious need for an urgent unblock, and there was an ongoing discussion about the block. I agree with the original block, as BHG has made multiple personal attacks which she has not rescinded or apologized for .Jackattack1597 (talk) 01:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• As a reminder, I asked for a refactor and an apology, not a block. If those were to be provided, I'd see no reason to issue any block, as I dislike the punishment post-fact aspect of this for people who have reformed. Unfortunately, no apology or refactor has been forthcoming, even after the recent block-unblock (see BHG's latest comments where I see no indication of heeding any warning or reading the room here: [47], [48]). I'll stress again that I neither seek a block of BHG nor that I consider it to be the best outcome. The best outcome, IMHO, would be for BHG to acknowledge she has lost temper towards me and several other editors on several different occasions, and that she has problems adhering to
  WP:BATTLEGROUND-like language and behavior becomes (hopefully) a bit less common. However, if no apology/refactor/promise of improved behavior are offered by BHG, the community does have the unpleasant but sadly not first-time choice to make: are going to shrug off this behavior (saying that repeated calling editors vile, obstinate, aggressive, trolls, etc. is ok - "grow thicker skin, Piotrus, being called a troll is perfectly normal on Wikipedia") and move on closing this as no action, or are we going to enforce CIV and related with some form of a stick (which sadly does include blocks, both as a form of preventive action - as in, preventing BHG from making more personal attacks - and correctional, as in, telling her that such behavior is not tolerated). Again, however, I once again hope we can deescalate this without the need to (re)block, but the choice for this is entirely up to BHG (apologie, refactor, promise to behave better - and seriously, these are not hard things to do, are they?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here}
  01:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @BrownHairedGirl: I've always liked you; whenever I see your name, I feel comfort, knowing a brilliant editor is on the scene. However, I implore you to see reason, as to how you have misconstrued Piotrus' contributions. I know it has been quite personal with your dispute with Chris.sherlock, but I do not see Piotrus as being a manipulator - or victim of manipulation. If you could simply apologize, it will resolve this whole nasty affair. BOTTO _(T•C) 20:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
    • @Botto: thanks for your kind words, but the reality is that I was falsely accused by Piotrus of having "inventing" the fact that the political status of the 1981 Irish hunger strikers was a POV issue, and of thereby creating a "straw man".<br /.I will not apology for questioning the scholarly credentials of someone who makes such blatantly false and malicious allegations, unless of course Piotrus withdraws those allegations. I was basically called a liar, and I do not find that acceptable ...but of course I would accept Piotrus's retraction and apology if it was offered.
      I find it very very sad that so many editors seem happy to accept Piotrus's personal attacks on me without criticism, but to pile on me for questioning the credentials of an editor who tried to sway the debate by presenting me as a liar. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
      • @BrownHairedGirl: I see your perspective. @Piotrus: How do you feel about that? Would you be in favor of issuing an apology in return, regardless of you offending BHG being intentional or not? If we could bury the hatchet over a misunderstanding, that would be ideal. BOTTO _(T•C) 21:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
      • In the DRV, you focused on Bobby Sands and what a huge problem it would be on that article if the category was not deleted. Piotr said You are inventing a threat of possible future controversies to argue the existing category is controversial bold mine. You are framing it as being accused of inventing historical facts, and that's not what he said. It takes a bad-faith contortion on my part to read it as you being called a liar. Schazjmd (talk) 21:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
        • @Schazjmd: I invented nothing. The articles on Bobby Sands and (as far as I have checked) all the other on the 1981 Irish hunger strike and the wider dirty protest take no stance on the question which side was "right" in the dispute over political status: both POVs are presented.
          However, if we have categories where individual prisoners or groups of prisoners are categorised as "political prisoners", then there has to be a binary choice between either putting them in the category or omitting them from the category. There is no half-way house, no possibility of a note to accompany each article title in the category, no means to attribute POV.
          That means the category system will reflect one or the other POV on the central issue of that dispute. Deciding which side to choose will inevitably be highly controversial, and anyone with any knowledge of the history and politics of northern Ireland in that era can attest that would be highly controversial. If you want confirmation of that, we can raise the issue on WikiProject Ireland and WikiProject Northern Ireland.
          It's bad faith contortion to claim that I "invented" any of this. A good faith, civil editor who was ungfamiliar with the topic would have asked for evidnece or third opinions; but Piotrus instead make a a direct accusatio that I was fabricating. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• If an ANI thread with so many experienced editors and admins has no clear outcome yet, blocking is, IMO, inappropriate. The unblock can be called inappropriate as well, but righting a wrong in the wrong way does have the net effect of righting a wrong. I will add that I do think many of the comments directed at Piotrus are pretty plain personal attacks, and I'm sad that BHG chose to make them. Calling a troll a troll because they are, supposedly, a troll is just not a good thing--and it is clearly not that obvious that P. was trolling. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Always worthwhile to agree with Drmies: absent an emergency it's rarely helpful for people to rush about blocking and unblocking over the top of an active ANI thread. Let the ANI play out and then act on community consensus: it's the best way to make the outcome stick. We've had a full block/unblock cycle: can everyone now just back away from the admin tools for a bit and let the conversation proceed. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• I wouldn't have blocked; the problem with blocking is that now everyone is talking about the block and unblock, which is adjacent to the actual issue. On the actual issue, this isn't a new problem: a vested contributor behaves badly and then refuses to be held accountable. Accountability can take different forms, such as acknowledging the mistake, or submitting to the judgment of the community. BHG hasn't done the first, and the problem with the second is that there are a fair number of users who--whether that's their intention or not--will frustrate that aim. If this is a one-off incident, then it's one of many. What's the plan here, folks? Mackensen (talk) 01:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• The block was maybe too early, and the unblock was similar, although neither was objectively wrong. Like some other veteran editors and former admins, BHG is nearly unblockable (and I say this as an admin). A regular editor would have long been sanctioned for far less. Part of why she was desysopped was behavior toward others, and that hasn't improved in the intervening time. While I have not directly been the target of her name-calling, I have seen it unfold in a predictable manner each time someone edits against what BHG believes to be "correct", which may or may not actually be so. She has done good editing work, there's no doubt about that, but I question whether the encyclopedia is actually improved by the endless arguments that come out of many discussions and interactions. Regardless of an IBAN and now indeffed editor, the page he edited is going to lead to more heat than light as well. Struck: page has since been deleted. Star Mississippi 02:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• A rushed block made while the discussion is still ongoing being reversed does not make one unblockable. If there is a consensus here for a block, then a block will occur. The community has the ultimate authority in this matter. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 02:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with this point is that the block was for (rightly or wrongly) policy violation (NPA), and had nothing to do with "consensus". — Ched (talk) 02:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• That's kind of where I land, Ched. HighInBC, unblockable not in the sense of this discussion, but if other editors behaved this way (specifically at the moment thinking of a recent signature discussion, and the edits that led to the recent BRFA), they would have been blocked. BHG is held to a different standard, likely out of respect for her tenure. I hope this discussion achieves consensus as to whether that's acceptable, or if it needs to change. Star Mississippi 13:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Idle proposal: perhaps we could give a final warning for personal attacks and/or escalating the tone of discussions instead of (or in addition to) a block? Enterprisey (talk!) 08:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry (because I have not really been following this), but aren't blocks supposed to be preventative rather than punitive? Was there any ongoing incivility/personal attacks etc.? If so, the block was likely warranted, though not for 7 days (24-48 hours to have a break would have been enough). If not, then the block was not warranted. GiantSnowman 10:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  In my judgment, there was indeed ongoing incivility to several different editors. I opted for a week knowing because, as the diffs above indicate, this is an ongoing issue and BHG has been warned about civility in the past (particularly at her ArbCom case). GeneralNotability (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  @GiantSnowman: Being blunt, any sufficiently long block against BHG is preventative against incivility and personal attacks and it probably doesn't have to be that long, and BHG's responses in this thread sadly suggest it isn't going to change. To some extent you can say that about many editors, but in my view BHG is one who's comments takes it to another level. Anyway I don't want to get heavily involved in this so I'll just leave this quick (for me) comment. I said something fairly similar ~2 years and others have said similar stuff above.

  BHG, doesn't seem to understand that the language she use is harmful to the community and especially to herself. She used too say her fellow editors have "low intelligence". I don't care how justified she thought that comment was, or whatever she talked about the Dunning–Kruger effect etc; it was never acceptable. I told her she needed to cut that crap out, as others did, maybe she moderated her behaviour slightly but not enough and it eventually it's what lead to the arbcom case and her desysoping. I know some were angry at arbcom for desysoping her because it wasn't her administrative actions that got her into trouble, but as I said, we cannot have administrators who behave so poorly in disputes even if they don't use administrative tools to do so.

  At some stage, whether before or after the arbcom case I don't know, I think she finally stopped saying her fellow editors have "low intelligence", but it's clear from this thread, her language is still a major problem. I saw the quote above about QEDK. I only check the diff to check the time stamp. What she doesn't seem to understand is I don't care about the diff. That language is not acceptable, it's very unlikely there will be a context (other than it was clearly a joke) which makes it acceptable especially not against an established editor who I'm confident was not acting in bad faith. When I see that language it makes me want to oppose anything she does. Frankly, I feel so strongly about it that it's very difficult for me to get involved in such a dispute since even if she is right, it will be difficult for me to see it.

  Okay that QEDK thing was over a year ago and calling someone a troll isn't quite in that league for me, still it's very far from acceptable language especially when an editor insists on the right to do so. Most agree BHG often does good work. And it may be the case, that she's often right too. However the language she uses alienates many editors and makes it hard for even editors without strong feelings to agree with her, let alone those initially opposed. As long as she keeps at it, it's hard for her to continue to do good work when there is a dispute.

  At this time there may be no consensus for a block. But while it may be true that it's very hard for some editors to be blocked, I don't think there's any such thing as an unblockable. If an editor's behaviour is bad enough, eventually they will be blocked. For that reason I'd urge BHG once again to think about how she can avoid these threads, and no it isn't getting everyone else blocked. I'd also urge those who are friends or supporters to call her out when she make unacceptable comments rather than let it fly because she do good work or because of the times BHG has defended someone.

  Nil Einne (talk) 13:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  I guess I should really stop commenting without reading the opening comment properly. I just noticed that I was too generous, BHG is still saying similar stuff to what she was 2 years ago with her comments on another editor's thinking skills. Maybe she's avoiding the phrasing "low intelligence" I don't know, it doesn't make it better. Her making it an either/or doesn't make it much better either. This affirms my belief even more that this is only going to end up with a BHG eventually indef blocked. As I said below, personally I feel that time is now. Still I'd much rather it didn't have to be that, as I think the vast vast majority in this thread. However as I also said below, I think our ability to do anything is very limited. It's ultimately on BHG to drastically change the comments she makes about and to other editors. Nil Einne (talk) 14:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't we at least consider a shorter term block first? Mind you, I still haven't given up on the hope that BHG can avoid a sanction altogether, but I do acknowledge that is looking less and less likely, because of the large number of contributors who have implied or outright said that they consider that an option only if BHG owns up to an issue here. And I'm just not certain she wouldn't rather fall on her sword first, to use the old idiom. But even if that does end up being the case, shouldn't we attempt escalating blocks? It would seems from the block log that BHG has never had to wait out more than a few hours of a block: maybe a month would be enough to emphasize that the community's supply of

WP:ROPE

has been completely exhausted here. Even 3 or 6 months (with an express possibility of appeal on acknowledgement of issues) would be better than indefinite.

You and I are both community members who tend to take CIV violations particularly seriously--and between you and I, I'm glad to see the uptake the community once again taking this pillar policy seriously of late, after a number of years of what I would call relatively lax enforcement, to the detriment of the project. But I think the community has enabled this particular situation to some extent, by never exercising the necessary will to take action before (at least in the form of a block). Now there are two ways to look at that situation: we could say that BHG has benefited too much from patience in the first place and that the standard response that would have been metted out to a novice editor acting in the same way by this point ought to be applied. But I'm inclined towards the second view: the blame lays with the community for whatever earlier hesitation it operated under, so, if there must be a sanction, we should consider starting with shorter sanctions, and figure out how much is needed to be effective. But I'm really hoping it doesn't come to making that decision: no sanction would still be my preferred approach, though I understand the obstacles in the way with regard to that outcome. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 15:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• A bad block and a bad unblock. Very unfortunate. — Bilorv (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

The hidden hand?

Can't help but wonder, if somewhere off Wikipedia, this Chris.sherlock/AussieArticleWriter bloke, is having a giggle. GoodDay (talk) 01:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Quite.DuncanHill (talk) 02:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

To repeat my question above, which was ignored: Should their other accounts, including Chris.sherlock, be blocked?--Ymblanter (talk) 05:46, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course they should be , and of course they won't be. DuncanHill (talk) 05:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I had a conversation with this person on a Facebook page yesterday, where he was trying to understand the revdels, the suppression and his block. I tried to clarify while being quite firm. He was a major influential figure in the early years of this encyclopedia but has been in poor personal health for quite a while. His behavior has often been reprehensible but I do not think that he is fully in control of that behavior. So, "having a giggle" is probably inaccurate and not appropriate, I think. "Suffering" is probably more accurate. That does not mean that I support disruptive editing, no matter the cause. But some compassion for the long term editors we must block indefinitely is also appropriate. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

IBANs all round

I have seen a tiny amount of the background to the impressive but unread walls-of-text above and am very sympathetic to a couple of the participants. However, this is Wikipedia, not the Justice Department, and it is time to bring the bickering to a close. There should be no further blocks. Instead, if the turmoil continues there should be indefinite two-way interaction bans to separate the participants, such as TRM/BHG, BHG/CS, DH/CS and any others that can't let it go. Instead of an indignation competition, it would be better to demonstrate who is most resistant to being poked without taking the bait. Johnuniq (talk) 03:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Please try to read a little bit before you propose something like this. You would recognize the BHG DH / CS IBAN already exists, and if properly enforced would have prevented this entire thing. I would like Arb to explain why they didn’t indef AAW when they posted that Arb request. Mr Ernie (talk) 03:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

My feeling at the time was, and it continues to be today, that the ARC fell under

WP:BANEX criteria 2. Also to the best of my knowledge, AAW/CS had a 1-way iBAN only with BHG but no DH/CS iBAN. Best, Barkeep49 (talk

) 03:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes,

WP:RESTRICT shows CS has a one-way iban against BHG but doesn't mention DH. I suppose this might peter out eventually but I don't see why anyone at Wikipedia should comment further about CS. I suppose we can wait until the BHG/TRM issue arises next time. My post was intended as more of a hint than a firm proposal. Johnuniq (talk

) 04:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

(ec) I did say AAW didn't have an IBAN against him in respect of me, despite him accusing me of (Redacted). DuncanHill (talk) 04:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The interaction ban between AAW and BHG does not appear to be related the the issue that started this discussion. Just because one editor (AAW) breaches an iban with BHG does not give BHG carte blanche to be uncivil to another editor whom they are in dispute with.Nigel Ish (talk) 06:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• An IBAN is what we use when two editors can't play nicely together. I feel that it's the wrong remedy for this case because we know that there are quite a few editors that BHG can't play nicely with. I also think that:-

• The editors above suggesting an apology and retraction from BHG are going to be disppointed. She has never retracted or apologized for anything, and when asked, she has always said that she stands by her words.
• Therefore we can't characterize this behaviour as a momentary loss of temper. It's not that.
• The behaviour is repeated. BHG is a prolific editor who's not averse to conflict and she's done this quite a few times.
• Nobody is unblockable. Strong contributions to the encyclopaedia are not and shouldn't be a shield that protects an editor from civility rules.
• A forced apology is no apology at all, and any attempt by us to force one is therefore worthless.
• Inaction is wrong. If we don't act on this, then we're showing contempt and disregard for her targets.

• IMV the decision is between a last and final warning and a community-imposed sitewide ban. BHG has had several warnings without the slightest effect on her conduct, and this one would have to be pretty clear that one (1) more incident of incivility would be the end.—S Marshall T/C 11:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

If we don't act on this, then we're showing contempt and disregard for her targets. Yes, and I would also add "If we don't act on this, then we're back here at ANI in a month or two with the same issues surrounding the same user." - Darwinek (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

TBH, this is the best solution. We'd just be acknowledging that this group of editors don't collaborate well with each other. No good or bad editors labels being placed. Merely encouraging each one to avoid the other. GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

What to do about BHG?

I agree with Mackensen above: I wouldn't have blocked; the problem with blocking is that now everyone is talking about the block and unblock, which is adjacent to the actual issue. On the actual issue, this isn't a new problem: a vested contributor behaves badly and then refuses to be held accountable. Accountability can take different forms, such as acknowledging the mistake, or submitting to the judgment of the community. BHG hasn't done the first, and the problem with the second is that there are a fair number of users who--whether that's their intention or not--will frustrate that aim. If this is a one-off incident, then it's one of many. What's the plan here, folks?

So what do we do here? Paul August ☎ 11:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

My immediate impulse is to prefer a warning, so as to prevent

counting heads - consensus does not exist for that. WaltCip-(talk

) 12:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Let's go with what works. BHG's Arbcom-imposed topic ban from portals and 1-way IBAN with NA1k have been very effective in preventing disruption while allowing her to edit. Perhaps we can craft something where BHG is prohibited from commenting on editing skills and motivation of any other editor, with escalating blocks for any assumptions of bad faith? —Kusma (talk) 12:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I have never seen those type of restrictions to be effective. A similar restriction was imposed on The Rambling Man a long time ago. The effect that ended up having was a net negative - it simply led to "gotcha!" attempts by his antagonists and a lack of clarity as to what constituted a reflection on an editor's competence or motivations. That sanction was eventually rescinded. From that episode, one could be led to the conclusion that sanctions based on behavior or civility for high-volume contributors tend to be ineffective or detrimental. WaltCip-(talk) 13:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It's difficult to make such restrictions effective when the restricted party doesn't agree that there's a problem and doesn't make a real effort to remove the source of the problem. As a community, we've often bent over backward to retain "net positive" editors, accepting the negative as part of the deal. The problem here is that we are implicitly privileging their contributions over those of whoever is on the receiving end of the "negative" behavior. Further, we're privileging their contributions over all the other editors left to pick up the broken crockery. I have no objection to issuing a warning, but my question stands: assuming the warning is unheeded, and past behavior suggests that this will be the case, what next? Mackensen (talk) 13:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

(EC) Kusma, I'd support that although I have doubts it will work. The trouble is it's IMO not something easy to follow and likely to lead to a lot of wikilawyering discussions about whether BHG violated it. I'm not saying I have an alternative, I don't which is why I support that and frankly nearly anything else to try and restrict BHG's behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 13:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The question is whether there is anything short of a siteban that could work. —Kusma (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Not sure if your responses was particularly directed at me, but for clarity: What I'm trying to say is, I'm not convinced this will work; but if others feel it might, I'd support it. If it comes down to a choice, sadly I'm leaning towards a site ban as my first preference given my doubts and how long BHG's incivility and PA problem has been going on. I'm not sure if I'll check out this thread again, but if someone else has another suggestion and I see it I'll of course reconsider but I can't think of any. (P.S. I wrote my initial response before WaltCip posted and didn't modify it when I read their response but it also sort of is a good contrast to my POV. It sounds like WaltCip is close to opposed whereas I feel it's still worth a try in the absence of anything else, also noting that it's not clear there will be consensus for a site block.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

If the community decides it is unwilling to do anything here, then we only have two options. Either we tell the editors on the receiving end to 'learn to live with it', or this is kicked upstairs to the Committee in their capacity as the final binding decision-maker primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. But I really do think it's an indictment of community dispute resolution if we can't even figure this mess out. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The behavior isn't going to change. I need to reread the ArbCom, but my recollection is that her behavior isn't appreciably worse now then it was then, so if they didn't find it block worthy then, they won't now. Possibly though with a new committee who can see it through the lens of ongoing despite the de-sysop. IBANs are one thing (and I don't know the detailed history with AAW/Chris, so staying away from that), but when it's multiple people, I don't think an IBAN will solve anything. There needs to be something that indicates the behavior needs to change. Star Mississippi 14:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I commented in the DRV, and I (like some others) tried to inject some humour there. but after what I have read above about escalating agf blocks or potential banning, I'm thinking that it just isn't fair, so I just thought I should comment.

My guess is that she'll be mildly surprised that I am defending her here, but whatever.

In my time editing at CfD and elsewhere, in my estimation BHG has an uncommon understanding of the category system and the various policies and processes thereof.

And as long as we don't talk about (in my estimation) her seeming bias when it comes to UK/British isles/Ireland-related stuff (among a few others), I think she's been a real asset, and a very diligent editor.

Now something I've been noticing more and more as I look around the various corners of Wikipedia, editing content just more and more seems to becoming a battleground. I don't think it's what any of us wants, but it's what it happening.

And in my estimation, BHG is someone willing to wade into those discussions with a full throated defense of policy.

However, when you start seeing everything as an apple, when an orange comes your way, you may mistakenly see it as an apple.

And "battleground-experienced" editors who know policy can get sneaky with saying things in certain ways, etc. So it's not surprising that someone in "battlefield mode" might mis-read an intent in this type-written environment, and following that, say things based on the mis-read. (Yes, I'm being charitable here.)

So yes, things several people said should not have been said, and things should be apologized for. (I'm not holding my breath.)

But if we ban everyone who is trying to defend policy and our processes, we may find that there is no one left.

So anyway, the short of it is that I don't think issuing IBANs to BHG is a successful solution in this case. In my experience BHG doesn't typically hold "grudges" from discussion to discussion (though she may use other discussions as "evidence" in the process), this is all about "winning the battle" of the moment.

So all you are doing is setting this up to where she will be IBANned with others one-by-one over time.

And another warning is just more additional "words", a speedbump to work around for the next "battle". (I was thinking of adding diffs, but I don't see them as helpful at this point).

I'm not sure what the solution is here. But I'm not sure we have the ability at AN/I to solve the greater battleground problem at Wikipedia. - jc37 13:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I've been following this thread with interest but haven't said anything knowing it could end up at ArbCom. But to answer the question Paul asks I think the following are the options I can think of:

  1. Community handles it

  A. Do nothing: the community could decide that there is nothing which violates our policies and guidelines (PAG) and so no action is appropriate.

  B. Warn (or issue a Final Warning): the community feels that there has been conduct which violates our PAG and warns BHG against further instances.

  C. Interaction ban(s): the community feels that there has been conduct which violates our PAG and to prevent future instances passes an interaction ban (perhaps 1 way, perhaps 2 way) with BHG and some combination of Piotrus, SQL, and QEDK

  D. Short term block: the community feels that there has been conduct which violates our PAG and to prevent continuing disruption a short term block (of length TBD) is necessary

  E. Indefinite block: the community feels that there has been conduct which violates our PAG and the only way to prevent further disruption is to pass an indefinite block. Indefinite of course does not mean infinite but this would require the community to accept an appeal from BHG before she could return to helping the project

  2. The community doesn't handle it: the community is too divided about the issues, the thread is too sprawling, and nothing is ever done

  3. An editor could send this to ArbCom:

  A. File an

  WP:ARCA

  : As BHG was party to a case in 2020 an editor could ask for ArbCom to revisit the issue through this venue. From there ArbCom will decide what happens next (likely some form of nothing, sanction through motion, full proceeding)

  B. File an

  WP:ARC

  : As the other people involved are substantially different than the 2020 case and there are other issues raised a new case request could also be filed. From there ArbCom will decide what happens next (decline the case, accept and resolve the case by motion, accept and open a proceeding)

I would add, only briefly because this is the what to do about BHG section, that options 1A, 1B, 1E and 2 could also be applied to AAW. Obviously this list of options will not contain any wisdom not already known by the editors here but I find sometimes the laying out of all options helps me to gain clarity about what I think the right option is and why. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment by a relatively new, non-admin editor: Strewth, I'm nearly lost for words. Back when I was in primary school, and the equivalent of Administrator's Noticeboard (Incidents) was the dinner-lady, whose Word was Law, life was simple. She'd have told us all to stop arguing and find something more useful to do instead. If I'm understanding correctly, this whole of this wall of text is based on a very simple foundation: Piotr says that BHG called him a troll and must apologise, and BHG says that at the time he was being a troll so she won't. In dinner-lady terms, is it time for someone to tell everyone to stop arguing and go back to lessons? Isn't there an encyclopaedia round here somewhere, that needs attention? Elemimele (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

That's completely disregarding these comments BHG made toward Piotrus:

• I am alarmed by your obstinate and aggressive rejection of those two simple points of fact, because that degree of denialism seems to me to be explicable in one of only two ways: a) that your claim to be a social scientist are false, and that you lack the thinking skills to understand that the central dividing issue of a dispute is a POV issue; b) that you intentionally engaged in a FUD campaign to misrepresent some simple, core facts because they don't suit your POV-pushing agenda. Which is it, Piotrus?
• Piotrus, you are back playing your old switch-and-evade game, and using your usual sleazy, gaslighting technique of bogus allegations.
• your sustained and disgustingly ill-mannered attempts to deny that reality

Those are unacceptable. Schazjmd (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

As discussed above, it is interesting to see how thoroughly Schazjmd ignores the fact that i was falsely accused of inventing historical facts and/or controversy.

In Schazjmd's approach, it seems to be entirely acceptable to make a thoroughly bogus and unfounded accusation of fabrication ... but entirely unacceptable to respond forcefully to such smears. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus is also not the only person who has been wronged here. If this had happened once or twice, sure, everyone could be slapped on the wrist and sent back to work. It's apparent that there is a larger pattern of behavior here, and if BHG isn't willing to even acknowledge it (I asked her to address this on her talk page, and she said I was being incivil), then I expect that this will keep happening, unless we do something about it. If this is to be addressed in some way other than with a block or arbcom case, then we need a good proposal to discuss. It is unfortunate that we don't have any good way to deal with long term civility problems from otherwise productive editors. ST47 (talk) 15:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps BHG could be prohibited from using adjectives, second-person pronouns, or mentioning any other editor's name except to identify a comment that she is agreeing with. Yes, I'm being facetious. I think. Schazjmd (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

There's something to be said for banning all adjectives from article space except for indisputable descriptive ones (unless sourced). Narky Blert (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@ST47: This is the sort of thing that really makes me despair of en.wp's dispute processes.

You refer to a post on my talk, but without linking the diff to facilitate others to scrutinise it.

So here is the diff: [49]. A you can see, the reason that I described your posts as uncivil was that you were completely ignoring what I wrote: You are entirely ignoring the fact that GeneralNotability explicitly promised to block me for criticising Chris.sherlock,[50] and you are responding as if that never happened and had never been mentioned by me. Why?
You are also ignoring the fact that I was in the midst of a situation where CS had set two other editors out to wind me up.

You have not responded to that question ...but instead you take my words out of context, and post here to use them against me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: I apologize for not including a diff to our side conversation, thank you for doing so. I headed to sleep after my post last night, and upon reading your reply this morning, got the distinct impression that you didn't want to talk to me. I think that we are at an impasse: I share your frustration with Chris Sherlock, and if every offensive comment linked in this thread was about him, we would all be ready to close the thread and walk away. However, multiple users have spoken out in this thread, and unless I am missing something, your only response has been that those users had been "set...out to wind [you] up". This is not a one-time thing.

It's still my work hours, and I really only intended to log on to check some bot things. I will try to follow up with this thread later, but I wouldn't be surprised if I don't have much time to. Busy Monday. ST47 (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@ST47: Thanks for the civil reply, ST47.

However, it seems that you still miss my point. That was a discussion on my unblock request, but you ignored everything I wrote about why I had made a request in that form.

You only seemed to want a fork of the wider discussion, and I don't see it being helpful to fork that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I think the community is perfectly capable of handling this and it isn't necessary to involve Arbcom. The evidence is all on-wiki and there's no need for any of that secret squirrel stuff that we need Arbcom to handle. I think the killer question is Kusma's: whether there is anything short of a siteban that could work. We need to focus on that question and come up with a genuinely workable alternative... or bite the bullet.—S Marshall T/C 15:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• I agree with S Marshall the community can (and should) deal with this. And so far at least, there seems to be a consensus for some kind of sanction. Paul August ☎ 15:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• As there are so many separate issues here, perhaps a structured sub-page would help? The conflation of the AAW issues, the Piotrus v. BHG issues, and various other BHG diffs makes this almost impossible to follow. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Please keep this on the main noticeboard as long as possible. Subpaging drastically reduces the number of neutral watchers. —Kusma (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• BHG is one of the most productive editors on this project. She is also somewhat easily triggered, which makes her an appealing target for trolls (like AAW) seeking drama. I would imagine that such a troll would find it particularly satisfying to poke and prod two or more easily-triggered editors into conflict with each other, or to exacerbate such a conflict when it arises. I would also imagine that such a troll would find it particularly satisfying to get the community involved in the high drama of blocking or banning an overall productive editor. BD2412 T 17:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  @BD2412, the thread here was started by Piotrus, an editor who is at least as productive as BHG (BHG has so many edits that it isn't easy to tell how productive she is) because he has been subject to personal attacks by BHG that do not seem to be connected at all to the banned user you mention. We shouldn't easily excuse personal attacks against such a productive editor. Whether our reaction makes some banned user sad or happy should not influence our actions here. How do you suggest we protect Piotrus against these attacks? —Kusma (talk) 18:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  I'm aware of how we got here. Neither participant in the original dispute is a cupcake. BD2412 T 18:31, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Whether an editor is a cupcake or has been desysopped for cause has very little to do with repeating personal attacks after being called out on them. Do you really think that is acceptable? —Kusma (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I've read through much of the thread above, and many of the linked diffs. The conduct of several users here makes me despair; there's just so much needless escalation, as several others have pointed out. I thoroughly endorse the indefinite block of CS/AAW; their conduct was appalling. For the record, I was the admin who implemented the one-way IBAN against them, and so I have some familiarity with this situation, and no reason to take their side. However, their conduct, and that of the others in this dispute, does not in the least excuse BHG's utterly needless aggression, and complete inability to self-reflect following conduct that many many uninvolved and experienced users have described as sub-par. Sniping at someone when you're upset is quite understandable. Returning to the conversation hours or days later, and declaring that the other parties deserved your rudeness, is neither understandable nor excusable. Besides which, at least a few of the many users who have been targets of BHG's hostility in the last few days, at least a couple did nothing to deserve it; SQL was making nothing more than a good-faith effort to defuse the situation, and absolutely did not deserve the rhetoric they got.
  As I see it, we have three options here. First, we can just drop this, and provide more evidence for the commonly-held belief that different rules apply for experienced contributors. I'd rather we didn't do that; IMHO more experienced contributors have a greater responsibility to be collegial, not lesser; but I suspect I'm in the minority there. Second, we could try to fix this via escalating blocks for violations of WP:CIVIL. To anyone who argues that a block would not be preventative, I'd point out that BHG wasn't rude in the heat of the moment, but came to this discussion many hours later, repeated her rudeness, and defended it at tedious length. Third, we could attempt a restriction along the lines of "BHG may not comment the behavior of other editors", but really I'd be fine with anything similar. I know the community hasn't had much success, historically, with such bespoke civility sanctions. This would nonetheless be my first choice, because I believe it's the most proportionate response that is directly addressing the problem, and also because there are far fewer editors here who are likely to game such a sanction to persecute BHG (the person most likely to do so has an IBAN and an indef block). Vanamonde (Talk) 18:26, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• As an editor who is personally acquainted with the behavioral issues that led to BHG's desysop, I'm dismayed to find that there are still some people willing to defend this kind of behavior. Yes, I'm aware that BHG is a very productive editor who does a lot of good work. And yes, I realize that we can find examples of bad behavior on the other side of the dispute. I've seen these excuses/justifications before. The behavior isn't changing and at this point it is blindingly obvious that it will never change. No, I don't pretend to have an easy solution, but can we at least acknowledge that we are dealing with an intractable problem that we can't just explain away by only focusing on the specifics of the most recent fracas?
  LEPRICAVARK (talk
  ) 21:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Let's be clear that BHG's orginal desysopping was one of the worst decisions ever made by an ArbCom (I have voted against every ArbCom candidate who voted for it, and will do for perpetuity) and whether we need to go into the details of whether that decision would have been the same had BHG been male is quite another issue. Black Kite (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  You have your opinion. I, as a target of some of BHG's problematic editing, have mine. I think the record reflects that the ArbCom in question was also willing to desysop influential male admins when it was necessary to do so.

  LEPRICAVARK (talk

  ) 23:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, but let's face it, the "Findings of Fact" against those male admins were indeed factual, as opposed to a number of the "facts" in BHG's case. Can't think why that might have been. Black Kite (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  You should probably save that line of reasoning for people who didn't experience BHG's chronic incivility firsthand. I had formed my own opinions on the matter long before any findings of fact were posted.

  LEPRICAVARK (talk

  ) 00:53, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

  I think this is another reason why we should make a decisive intervention here instead of kicking it upstairs to Arbcom, and I wonder whether Black Kite has any thoughts on what the remedy should be.—S Marshall T/C 10:11, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• I say no to indef block/ban. No articles have been vandalised (to my knowledge) & zapping editors off this project, because of words, isn't the way to go. GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  BHG's words have resulted in editors leaving the project or reducing their activity levels (for example, see the

  WP:CIV is a policy. —Kusma (talk

  ) 10:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• I don't see why we shouldn't treat this case with the seriousness it deserves. The diffs show that this is a rather extreme case of bullying and harassment by BHG against users who did nothing whosoever to deserve it. Presented with Vandamonde's options, I strongly favor a preventative block, with a note that the blocks will escalate if more violations occur. DIACHRONY (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

How about this?:

We have made a finding that BrownHairedGirl's method of interacting with other editors is too often and too severely uncivil, too often includes personal attacks, is too pointy, too seldom deescalates difficult situation, too often escalates difficult situations. We find that it is important that this situation be improved. For a period of three months, BrowHairedGirl is completely prohibited from commenting on other editors. This will be strictly and quickly enforced with escalating blocks if violated. If BHG is subjected to any behavior by others that requires addressing during this period she is let someone else handle it on her behalf. The community hopes and expects that this will help establish a new pattern of behavior which includes a substantial reduction in the amount and severity of the discussed issues after the three months have expired.

It's only 3 months because this does create a behavior "minefield" for BHG. It is hopefully long enough to express the finding that improvement in these areas is needed and important and to show BHG a different method of operating that is more enjoyable for her and others while continuing to be productive in her contributions to Wikipedia. North8000 (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the sentiment, but what this proposal calls a "behavior minefield" is what every other editor calls policy. I would prefer this be indefinite and require BHG show good cause to the community before it is removed. — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The "minefield" referred to is that this remedy bars any comment on any other editor, which is overbroad and, in my opinion, untenable. How is someone supposed to participate in any discussion with this type of restriction on them? "X is a vandal" is a "comment on another editor". So is "A is a sockpuppet of B". I think it is better to create explicit penalties for actual policy violations, than it is to create a bespoke remedy that is as broad as this. ST47 (talk) 19:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, there is one comment saying it's too lenient and one saying it's too stringent. Maybe that means it's just right  :-) ST47 So BHG can't say those things for three months. Remedies preclude all kinds of this that are otherwise OK. By definition, remedies almost always prohibit things that are otherwise OK. North8000 (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

We have AIV and ANI where problematic conduct can be reported so that it can be handled by others. Further, per

WP:BANEX, this would not apply to obvious vandalism, so I don't believe "X is a vandal" would be a problem except when it was vexatious. To be clear, I agree that the restriction is broad and perhaps untenable, but the disruption is broad and untenable. How many person hours have been wasted on this incident alone? I'm open to suggestions, but it needs to be made clear that this is indeed the end of the rope. — Wug·a·po·des

​ 20:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I would describe this as a censure followed by a probationary period. I think this could work. Something needs to be done. Paul August ☎ 20:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  User:Paul August - This sounds like "comment on the content, not the contributor", which could/should work, but we need to leave room for commenting on the contributor, but only at appropriate venues (like here and other such noticeboards and processes which address editor behaviour). Else this is a one-way gag-rule that is ripe for third-party abuse. - jc37 21:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  See North8000 and Wugapodes replies just above. Paul August ☎ 22:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  I guess I was thinking about Wugapodes's point and your statement when I commented. I still think North8000's proposal is too broad without focused language. As User:ProcrastinatingReader noted below, if not done well (and sometimes even if they are) these can have the eventual effect of driving editors away or on the other hand, eventually blocking/banning them anyway. I really would like to see if we can do better this time. - jc37 22:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Suggest something. Paul August ☎ 22:33, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  I believe I've seen restrictions like this a few times. One example was this, which was a six-month ban on commenting on other editors' motivations anywhere but at ANI. To the best of my recollection, none of them worked (in terms of improving editor conduct), but I suppose they did make enforcement for individual infractions easier. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I support something along these lines; I'd suggest a sort-of one-way blanket Iban – she would be allowed to comment in discussions or on talk pages, but as standalone comments only (e.g. in an RM or CfD discussion she can leave a !voting comment) and not responses to others, unless the other editor engages with her first. In my experience, the main issue is that she is unable to disagree with others without becoming increasingly obnoxious; as a result, I think the solution is to allow her to make her (often valid) points, but stop her responding to people she disagrees with. Number 57 21:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• What's gonna happen to BHG's nomination for administratorship? GoodDay (talk) 21:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  I believe it was recently deleted - jc37 21:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  @GoodDay: It appears to have been deleted. ^{!ɘM γɿɘυϘ}⅃ϘƧ 21:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

  Acknowledged. GoodDay (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• "We have made a finding that BrownHairedGirl's method of interacting with other editors is too often and too severely uncivil". No. You have made that finding, and anyone who is clear about North8000's average "findings" will know that it's probably incorrect. Black Kite (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Black Kite: I have not made ANY finding! This was merely an attempt at a middle of the road proposal, derived from this ANI section. North8000 (talk) 22:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps you ought to make that clear, then. Black Kite (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I see how one might imply that from my proposal but it was not intended or stated. To reinforce, my proposal was merely an attempt at a middle of the road proposal, derived from the discussions and diffs in this ANI section. I have no memory of ever having interacted with BHG. North8000 (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• I haven't read every word above this one but thought I'd just say that the only action I would support is a "incivility ban" with escalating blocks for personal attacks which I think are more identifiable that a fuzzy "incivility" which I think is subject to interpretation. Today, an editor called my actions "lazy" on my talk page, a comment that is not civil but I wouldn't consider it a personal attack. An enforced civility hasn't worked well in the past but it's a possible solution.

I think the ambivalence towards BHG that some editors here seem to despair about is because aside from some toxic personal interactions, BHG is a brilliant defender of policy and the project. Her knowledge of categorization and its history here is encyclopedic and so I value hearing her opinions in disputes. If she could step away from these interpersonal feuds, well, she'd still be an admin. A ban on incivility, as imperfect as it would be, is a way to retain keep her and her contributions but let BHG know there are consequences to lashing out at editors and admins she finds herself in conflict with (I'm referring to other editors besides Chris who went out of his way to provoke her). Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

There is no need for anyone to respond to my stance with diffs and examples of unpleasant things BHG has said, I've been following this dispute and am familiar with them. There is no need to repeat personal attacks in this thread yet one more time which I think just causes pain to the targets again and again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, I'm well aware of the reasons underlying the ambivalence. At this point, I simply don't care and I've lost all patience with the community's failure to resolve the issue. Again, that's just me, but I wouldn't be surprised if others feel the same way.

LEPRICAVARK (talk

) 00:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

But we're all already banned from incivility. Levivich 01:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Not in practice... — Bilorv (talk) 20:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)