Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive814

Block evasion

I'm not sure of the procedure here but could someone please block or stop Cyberbot II from continuing its spam-tagging pending further discussion? It's making 20+ controversial main article tags per minute and it seems bot-edit-warring against editors who try to revert it, while the operator is offline. Please see User talk:cyberpower678 for the beginnings of a discussion on this. Best err on the side of not making a huge mess for human editors to clean up, if the bot gets fixed or properly approved it can always resume its rounds. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I have shut down that specific task, because multiple editors raised concerns. I have no opinion on whether the bot functioned correctly or not, but since it is not a very urgent task, some more discussion and clarification can't hurt.

Fram (talk

) 09:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

These spam tags should be removed automatically, as it would take too long to do it manually.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 09:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this change happened (ok if spamming site), I found another (inferiour?) link and changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ARM_Holdings&diff=574425185&oldid=574323253 comp.arch (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well I just woke up, so I am sifting throught everything to determine whether the bot was malfunction or not.—
  ^Chat
  _Online 11:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
• From what I have been shown, the has been functioning correctly. It's validation engine to the regex list is exactly the same as MediaWiki's. The reason why it's tagging so many at once, is because it's running it's initial round. The bot removes them on it's own once they become whitelisted.—
  ^Chat
  _Online 11:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

  For example, I just tried to add the link mentioned above right here, and was blocked by the blacklist.—

  ^Chat

  _Online 11:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The bot is back to edit warring.[37] Can we please shut it down pending discussion? I'm not sure the question is whether it's functioning as approved, but whether it's operating without consensus. Bot approval is not the same as consensus, and this one seems to be doing a lot of high-speed damage. Plus, AFAIK bots are not allowed to edit war or create policy. Let's organize a wider discussion on what if anything this bot should be doing to tag articles. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't see this high speed damage? I understand that the bot didn't make any incorrect taggings?

The bot is not creating new rules, it's just warning about infractions of current rules. If the blacklist and the whitelist are broken, that is a different problem that needs to be addressed elsewhere.

Mind you, the bot needs a few fixes: don't re-add the tags, and tag at much slower pace. I don't care if it's the initial round, it's still too fast. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes it's back. This bot is blatant spam and should not be allowed to tag article pages. It should place the tag on the talk page. The existence of a possible blacklisted link is not worth ruining the appearance of a page over. Please can this bot be shut down until it is modified.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 05:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

If we have that many blacklisted links appearing on pages that the bot that's tagging for them is referred to as "spamming", that's a very troubling problem with the fact that there's so many blacklisted links that have snuck into the project, not a problem with the bot. We should be thankful that the bot is bringing this to blatantly obvious attention, not calling for it to be changed so we can stick our heads in the sand over the problem. (Also {{blacklisted-links}} works the same way as {{update}} or {{copypaste}}. Have fun moving those to the talk page.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that links that were previously thought of as OK are now being thrown up as spam links. This is compounded by the agressive nature of the bot, which doesn't allow the template to be removed for more than about 12 hours, when it takes weeks for a link to be white listed. I have no real problem with the bot, but a huge problem with the way it operates, we all volenteer here, and loosing good links because of a mistake in the blacklist is not a good thing; this is happening. It is for these reasons that I shut down the bot, and would request it not be started again for a week or so, to allow time for the whitelist/blacklist issues to be sorted. Liamdavies (talk) 13:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

No-one has problems with having a maintenance tag on an article for 1 year, why is it an issue to have this template there for a couple of weeks? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 13:48, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the problem is more with the template than the bot... A smaller tag on the link itself and a notification on the talkpage would seem more appropriate than a banner across the top of the page. MChesterMC (talk) 11:04, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I am going to comment here regarding the tagging on the talkpage vs. page itself. Maintenance tags are generally added to the page, and this is a maintenance tag. Although I see that there is no hurry (like with copyvio tags), the problem at hand is worse than not having incoming wikilinks, or having problems with references: I recently ran into a case where I had to whitelist a link, revert a page to a non-vandalised version that mutilated the link in question, de-whitelist, and then ask for whitelisting (I did not want to make the call on whether the link should be whitelisted) - there are cases where a simple rollback (which is ignored by the blacklist) does not work anymore. That is a serious nuisance, and that is what this bot could avoid. I would ask to consider to make the template left by the bot in line with banners that are produced by the other maintenance tags. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 13:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment by uninformed amateur, maybe not worth an answer, an opinion: This thing is clearly out of control. I tried to talk to Cyberpower678, and feel I was blown off. First I was told that it’s not his problem, then I was directed to a page that I don’t understand, and the same link keeps getting tagged, despite Liam. Now Cyberpower678 just posted that he’s gone for a while. This simply cannot be right, can it?Sammy D III (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that links are either (1) used inappropriately on an article, or (2) inappropriately in the spam blacklist. Complaining about the bot is just shooting the messenger. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Jackmcbarn: (1)No (2)sounds good. Can’t this be turned off, or be made to skip this one link? I tried to address blacklist, but am in way over my head. Either way, thank you for your reply. Sammy D III (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes; you need to either have the link removed from the blacklist or added to the whitelist. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The bot is running fine and is highlighting a problem not creating it any way and maintenance tags aren't spam. The bot isn't at fault for links being on the blacklist and i think The Bushranger summed it up correctly it highlights a major issue of how these links got added to the project in the first place.Blethering Scot 17:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I think Cyberpower has done a good job of reacting to feedback about this bot. Personally, I'd prefer to see the tags on the talkpage, but opinions will differ on that, and I'm not personally keen on maintenance tags in the "customers'" faces in general. That's a separate discussion that should be had elsewhere.

If the bot is exposing a long term problem, that may be painful. If the bot is too keen on edit warring, or needs throttling, then let's address that somewhere. Maybe we should address it before the bot is active again.

But the main reason for my post is the first thing I said - I think Cyber is being responsive, and if the bot task has exposed a large number of incorrect pre-existing links it's going to be hard for one editor to deal with the huge amount of "bounceback" that is bound to cause. I write code, and I am often in the position Cyber is now. He's trying (very hard) to do the right thing, so let's cut him a little slack, even if in doing so we need to get him to hold off on the bot tagging for a short while so we can discuss. I'm personally grateful he's taken the time he has (and the flack he has) to look at this issue for us. Begoon ^talk 19:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I am clearly missing something here. “I think Cyberpower has done a good job of reacting to feedback about this bot.”

I started with “Comment by uninformed amateur”, in fact I am impaired. But I try. I don’t know how to do diffs, so I am leaving page urls. I first tried this as “why is cable car guyblacklisted?”:[38]. No answer, not a problem, nobody goes to my stuff, anyway. So I tried this: [39]. Helpful? Who but a code person could get this? [40]. Then I came here. Lots more help. And despite this: “I tried to address blacklist, but am in way over my head.” Not one of you in any way tried to help me check this, or did it yourself. At 11:37 and 11:53 he defended the action of his program, then he posted this: [41]. At no time has he offered any real help, turn his program off, or in any way address the problem it was causing. Then he left with “Since I likely won't be able to think straight for a while”. As someone who deals with neurologists regularly, this doesn’t sound credible to me. But I am not a Doctor, I admit this. Now I read this (I’m repeating it, I know): “I think Cyberpower has done a good job of reacting to feedback about this bot”. This sounds crazy to me, and believe me, I know crazy. Personal attack? Feel free to block me, I certainly don’t belong in the ivory tower.Sammy D III (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Cyberpower has no responsibility for links being on the blacklist he never put them on there so 100% he has no issue to answer in that respect. He is also not resposible for adding or removing a link from said blacklist and cyber has pointed several users in the correct direction of what should be done. Now its time to stop putting the boot in on a perfectly functioning bot which has done exactly the task it is supposed to and a user who has no responsibility for the blacklist whatsoever. What has happened here is that a long list of users are unhappy that the links they want in the articles are on the mediawiki blacklist and these links should never have been put in wiki space in the first place and need removed or proven to be suitable for removal from said list. Blethering Scot 22:23, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned above, Cyberpower has no responsibility whatsoever for what's on or not on the blacklist; asking him why link X is blacklisted is like asking a gas station attendant how a refinery works. And if you are "someone who deals with neurologists regularly" you should know very well that when someone gets frustrated/annoyed it becomes difficult to have rational discussions ("thinking straight") so that commentary is frankly rather disingenuous. Now let's get back to removing these bad links - and if there are some that are, in fact, valid links wrongly on the blacklist,

Wikipedia will not get sucked into a black hole and implode if the link has to be commented out until it's whitelisted. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

22:41, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Cyberpower indeed has no responsibility for flaws in the blacklist, and Cyberpower correspondingly has no reason to complain if the community shuts this task down for being unwise and a harm on the encyclopedia. In the past few days about 10% of +/- 1200 the articles on my watchlist have received a tag that impugns the integrity of the article and that a casual reader who arrives on this project from google would have no meaningful way of understanding or dealing with. Clearly, degrading articles is not conducive to the apparent purpose of the bot tag, an automated function for trying to deal with spam. The vast majority of the tagged articles on my watchlist are not spam, they are commercial sites of uncertain reliability (and many, clearly appropriate for the purpose cited). When I've removed the tags as inapt, the bot just re-tagged them. I could remove 100 tags per day from my watchlist, the bot would retag them... am I supposed to submit a WP:3R report to see who gets blocked first? The problem with bots is that they do not watch or listen to any consensus process, and there is no consensus for this. The template encourages me to go through a ridiculous guilty-until-proven-innocent process (full of warnings that reports would likely be denied) just to assert that no, the link in the article is either something we can deal with, or is a reliable source and not spam for the purpose provided. This whole thing reeks of betabot if you ask me, and I hope we all learned a lesson there. No, we long-term editors (who may have day jobs, who are working on creating new content, etc) will not line up 24/7 behind a scrubbing machine to limit its damage. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:51, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry what? Do you know how bots work? Stick {{

nobots}} on the page, and it won't war with you again. Legoktm (talk

) 06:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to be blunt, the only reason I can see for wanting the tags off the pages posthaste is a worry that it will stop people from clicking on the links in question, and I'll leave the implications of that to the reader. What I will say is that if the links are on the blacklist, they are likely inappropriate. I currently have 7,378 pages watched, and since this process started running all of two have been tagged. If the links are appropriate and you want the bot not to keep squawking, <!--comment them out--> until they are whitelisted,

the encyclopedia won't be destroyed by this. And if they're declined for whitelisting, then maybe, just maybe, it's because they really are inappropriate links. The bot is not malfunctioning and it is not damaging the encyclopedia; the damage came from people who, in good faith or otherwise, and knowingly or otherwise, exploited a loophole in the blacklisting process that allowed the links onto the pages. The solution isn't to shut down the bot, stick our heads in the sand and declare 'no bad links here, nope', the solution is to thank the bot and remove the links. The scope of the problem is our fault, not the bot's. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

07:09, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

That's a load of nonsense. As an editor of 6-7 years standing, if I look at an article and say no, no bad links here, nope, then my judgment deserves something other than an edit war ay a bot. Your "maybe" rhetorical comment is unintentionally apt: maybe yes indeed there is a bad link, but in fact, no. And the decision must be in the hands of human editors editing real judgment over articles, not a bot unleashed on the project to make policy by sheer persistence and in the process making a huge mess for us more thoughtful editors to clean up. That was exactly the betabot problem. Should my time here on Wikipedia mean I have to go to war with poorly conceived bots over their auto-tagging? If there's no deadline, then shut down the bot instead of making us human editors invest untold hours cleaning up messes, perhaps we could just stop dumb bots from causing damage. No, I'm not going to nowiki a bunch of links in my article, I'll just undo the harm by removing the inapt tag. I'm hoping we can all decide that good faith editorial discretion trumps hasty script experiments people unleash on the encyclopedia. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? Have you even looked at the time I've committed to writing this script. It's BRFA was open since May. You had a chance to comment all this time, and chose not. This BRFA was advertised and no one gave significant. You have the audacity to call my script a betabot and poorly conceived, after it's been reviewed by other BAGgers? So I basically just conjured this script from my ass. Ok I get. I just months of work for nothing, all because YOU didn't comment while I was actually still developing this bot. Gee since I'm such I'm such a disruptive user, why don't I just leave. You'll be rid of burden.—

^Chat

_Online 11:14, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Back away from the edge Cyberpower! So, fix the code so that it doesn't edit-war ... maybe it should only visit an article a maximum of once a month. The bot's doing something unwanted - the best response is to find out exactly what is unwanted, and fix it ... that's what botops and bot designers do. So yes, everyone's bot is STILL in beta mode because they'll never, ever be perfect ES&L 11:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Like everyone else is writing on here, there is no issue for the tags to remain while the link is blacklisted. It's a maintenance tag just like an orphan, notability, and other tags. When a page is at AfD, do we remove the tag. No. What happens if it gets removed, a bot adds it back. It's no different with this tag. And your concept of what beta is wrong. A betabot is a bot still being tested. This bot is out of it's testing stage, running under scrutiny until the code was complete and bug free. Now it's approved and the code is final, out of its testing stage, hence no longer beta. Oh, and have a look at my talk page. It'll explain my attitude at the moment. Sorry.—

^Chat

_Online 11:50, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

No. It's always Beta because you always need to be responsive to the community (just ask Bill Gates - all Windows versions are beta :-) ). You cannot compare an AfD tag to a linkrot/blacklisted tag - one is specifically noted by policy to remain (and that's the AfD one). Your bot needs to follow the same

WP:BRD processes as any other editor ES&L

12:55, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Windows sucks. I'd say it's always in it's alpha stage. And since when does Microsoft respond to user demands? Windows 8 tends to go against that. Ok the AfD tag is a bad example, but allows one maintenance tag to stay and another, which is much more severe to simply be shrugged off?—

^Chat

_Offline 13:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Visiting once a month is not the answer at all maybe less frequently but certainly not that infrequently given these links shouldn't even be on the site at all. The main issue here is several editors being unhappy that a link they want is on the media wiki blacklist and reverting the bot which has done the correct thing. Editors should either be removing these links or applying for it to be taken off the blacklist. As a community we should be trying to remove these links and taking seriously the issue of editors edit warring or insisting that blacklisted pages stay on the site. The bot is an essential part of that and should be thanked for highlighting a very worrying issue, punishing the bot rather than the editors initiating it would be highly inappropriate but a compromise should be made by reducing its frequency potentially once a week but equally editors edit warring with it without valid reason or applying for said link to be removed should equally be warned by the community as we cannot continue allowing blacklisted pages to live on the site.Blethering Scot 21:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Per Blethering Scott, removing the tag and waiting a month for the bot to re-tag is just going to do that, month after month after month. Editors are not going to solve the problem. Get those links whitelisted (and get more admins engaged in the process). Get two individual vandals where the first removes the link, and you are stuck with a broken page where you will HAVE to wait until someone whitelists the link for you. Been there, done that. Get the whitelisting process started, and ask for temp excemtion by the bot. I really wonder how many people who just removed the tag went on to ask for whitelisting or actually considered that the reference could be improved and the old site should actually be removed. Some of these links should really not be used - do realise that the less suitable sites do have more reason to spam and get more incoming traffic than the really good stuff, and guess which end up being blacklisted. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 04:30, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly my problem Beetstra, the bot tagged a series of pages, people have removed the links before I had a chance to remove the tag, and I can't undo it. The links that were removed are not intended to be on the blacklist, and hence I feel justified in removing the tag. I have subsequently taken the link to whitelist request, but as that process takes an age I turned the bot off so I needn't fight it every 12 hours (or more frequently). I do not intend or request that the bot be turned off in perpetuity, but simply for long enough to get the whitelist requests sorted, whilst not having decent links removed from articles for no good reason. I would hope that others are doing the same thing, and by the looks of the whitelist requests they are, this will only slow down the process even more. The bot has already done at least one pass, so all links are now identified and users can now either request whitelisting, or remove them; there seems very little need to keep it going every 12 hours at this point. Once the first issues are dealt with there should be no problem with the bot doing a pass every day or two, it is only at the moment (initially) that I request it be deactivated, as it has shown obvious problems with the blacklist. Liamdavies (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it indeed shows the problem, the bot is tagging way more than the number of whitelist requests, which until now are just a few more than normal. So most people did not go through the problem of sorting it out, just ignore the bot, revert the tag, or at worst, blindly remove the link.

I agree that it should not edit war, but once a month is absurd. Once a day or every other day would be fine.

And the solution to solve the long waiting time on the whitelist is simple - send or select some competent admins that want to help out there.

there is a way, i'm sure, to limit edits to each page, to , say once every-other day. but, as far as it saysin "hey, there are some links here that need taking care of", I see no problem with that. cyberpower has spent ALOT of time (months most likely) slaving away at the script, and getting it through BAG. i'm sure that any serious issues would have been raised during the process. if the whitelist process is slow, that's another issue entirely. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 08:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Late reply to

WP:GNG is. I'd love to see the arguments against the enforcement of the blacklist that have been made here used against the enforcement of notability; just let me get my popcorn first. - The Bushranger _{One ping only}

09:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Bushranger, you can't honestly tell me that it is no accident that cable-tram-guy.com is blacklisted, along with all links ending in guy.com. Can you? I feel fully justified in removing the tag and saying no bad links here, it is an obvious mistake. There are surely other cases like this, and until they are whitelisted I feel that it is appropriate to ask for a reprieve from continually having to remove the tags in a race against other editors, whom like you, believe that the blacklist is faultless and any link that shows up MUST be removed. Beetstra, given the gauntlet that RfA has turned into I'm surprised anyone voluntarily subjects themselves to it, and know that I have zero chance of achieving adminship due to my relatively low level of activity. Liamdavies (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Liamdavies, my remark regarding RfA was a bit tongue-in-cheek - I know that RfA's are decided on other merits, it is not always a nice environment, and people are not probed on their ability/willingness to work on the anti-spam/whitelist/blacklist front.

Bushranger - some of the links are just plainly wrong catches of a, apparently, too wide net. Others were not removed as 'were there, but not added by the spammers' or just forgotten to be removed. I don't expect much bad faith circumventions of the blacklist (I've run in good faith attempts at that .. but well). Also, a lot of the links that are still there are in the grey area - some respectable organisations are relentless in spamming (or their SEOs are), still their info is good reliable info. If the ratio of spam additions over regular additions is really going over the top, sometimes the blacklist is, unfortunately, the only way forward.

Anyway, most of these should be whitelisted (or indeed plainly removed), and some might be even suitable for de-blacklisting (we're discussing such a case on meta at the moment). Those requests should preferably be made by regulars on the pages which are having those links on them (as they would know the validity of the links, and can give the best advice regarding replace-ability or appropriateness). Those requests often go uncontested (though may get some return questions). Problem is, as always, the manpower to actually whitelist the material (and also, to blacklist and clean out the rubbish). And when the whitelisting / de-blacklisting requests are there, the bot can be set to ignore that specific case, the bot will remove the template, and there will be no edit warring, page-defacing and whatever. I also suggest that the bot does not add the template more than once every 1-3 days, but some insistence would be good until the links are whitelisted/de-blacklisted. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

This is accepted as a mistake, correct? Then a practical thought. I knew about this at 16:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC), but didn’t know what to do. If there was a “false positive, report it” link which worked, I would have filled out a short form, it may have been fixed by now. I don’t know the backlog, but we would have been closer. Instead, later I got “don’t modify if you don’t know” something on a page of code. I can’t even find it now, not really a simple process. And I am. Thank you for your time.Sammy D III (talk) 15:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

There it is in plain sight. Sorry to bother youSammy D III (talk) 16:24, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

That is not easy, either. Should it be difficult for an amateur to ask if something is wrong? I KNEW that link was good, I still don't know how to do a simple report. Not real fast, but I hang out around there.Sammy D III (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• I just noticed this discussion for the first time, after having posted elsewhere about the situation several days ago. I seems that this bot's script has tagged many domains that were once blacklisted a long time ago, possibly inappropriately, but were not previously tagged. My concern about the blacklisting of the newspaper Education Update was resolved through discussion at Meta, but I see that other users who are encountering these templates are frustrated and bewildered. For example, another post at Meta expressed concern about the mass removal of links to reverbnation.com, which is an important music website that is (or was) widely linked in music-related articles. Another user posted at Meta about the template on Gerard Majella, only to discover that jesus-passion.com is not globally blacklisted; in that case, it appears that the bot is tagging all occurrences of "passion.com", which is blacklisted here at EN. It appears that the bot unearthed some sort of problem with the blacklists. That problem needs to be resolved before the bot tags any more articles -- and, as suggested in one of those discussions at meta, the bot should be enlisted to work on undoing the damage that was done to articles where valid reference citations and ELs were mistakenly removed as spam. --Orlady (talk) 17:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  The bot simply tags pages with a maintenance tag. It doesn't remove any links, and the bot automatically removes the tag if it's no longer valid. The bot has already tagged every page that it wanted to tag. Starting up the bot now, is not going to have it tag new pages.—

  ^Chat

  _Online 19:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  Given that, I'm in favor of turning it back on. Sticking our heads in the sand isn't accomplishing anything. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  If the bot isn't planning to tag any more pages for having links that were blacklisted a long time ago (and have been here for years without bothering anybody), I suppose that it could be turned back on to start removing the templates about links that (like educationupdate.com) have been removed from the blacklist since the recent tagging. However, don't allow it to re-tag articles (like the ones that Sammy D III is concerned about) that it recently tagged until a more comprehensive effort has been made to resolve the large number of inappropriate blacklistings that it uncovered. --Orlady (talk) 21:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  The fact that it will tag pages that have blacklisted links where the tag has been removed is exactly why it should be turned back on. The blacklist entries need fixed, and turning off the bot isn't getting them fixed any faster. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• From what I'm reading, more people are for the bot while a few express concerns about it's constant retagging. It seems the main concern lies with the fact that the whitelisting process takes so long, that the link may get removed accidentally by a new user as a result of the tag, the longer the bot keeps retagging it. So I have amended the instructions. Since I respond promptly to the bot ignore requests, if you file a request for whitelisting, you may proceed to the exceptions request page, link your whitelist request, as well as the page and link itself, and it will go onto the ignore list. The tag can be removed afterwards. I think that sounds like a fair compromise to the situation.—
  ^Chat
  _Online 00:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Just wondering. I ran into a case a couple of months back (April) where a page was vandalised by one editor, and another did an independent follow up edit, and the first of the editors removed a blacklisted link. I could not revert, and had to emergency whitelist, revert, de-whitelist and request. I wonder, how many cases have there been that editors who ran into the same situation, and chose to just disable/remove the 'offending' link and save the page .. I, for one, do not recall people coming to the whitelist requesting such emergency whitelistings to facilitate a revert (but I may have missed that). Seen that there are so many pages with (rightfully or wrongfully) blacklisted links, I expect that others must have ran into such situations as well. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Beetstra, I'm in that situation, I'm waiting for the white list so I can reinsert these two links here and here. These are the two that I've managed to keep track of, I'm sure there are others that I have failed to keep track of just from cable-tram-guy.com, I don't want to have to keep track of all links and then revert the removals after the whitelist. Liamdavies (talk) 14:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Coming to this thread very late in the game but here's my impression:

Editors screaming for an emergency stop: This has been a problem for a long time, the bot is simply drawing attention to articles which do have the bad link in the wikitext. Just because we haven't enforced it in the past doesn't mean we should continue to ignore the problem. You had plenty of time to review the bot task (and assuming good faith) had multiple opportunities to discuss the changes. At this point you need to sit down and figure out how to resolve the tag. Willfully removing a tag without resolving the underlying issue is more disruptive than tagging the article. There might be a case for holding off the bot's re-checks/re-adding of the tag but that can be calmly discussed without using pejorative language like "Bot gone wild". Bot operators have to be experts in balancing the good of the project (that they will accomplish by doing the bot task) with the wishes and consensus of the project. Cyberpower has made several offers for how to make the bot's exclusion better, but I would argue that it would be better to not exclude if the page still has a problem. Hasteur (talk) 12:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Hasteur, please see my comments above, if there are actual problems with links that can be dealt with. Just let the whitelists happen first, a few weeks wait won't kill the project, we have survived this long without this bot and

there is no deadline

.

Cyber, would it be possible to embed a script function into the template, where a user can apply for a whitelist and have the template exempt for a certain time period all in the same action? This would greatly help the lay user in applying for a whitelist and removing/hiding the template temporarily while the request is processed. Liamdavies (talk) 14:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I can but, it will be in the template documentation. I can write a little tool that you fill out information with and it then it submits a request for whitelisting. Then places an exception on to the exception's list. But that may take some time, given the current conditions. I have also noticed that the number of pages requiring tags have dropped by 400. I'm tempted to let the bot run again, given the direction this discussion is taking.—

^Chat

_Online

I think that would be a good and appreciated addition, if possible and you are willing to give time to it. I for one would prefer you not run the bot again, as it involves me editing 46 45 pages to remove the tags in a race against other editors. Liamdavies (talk) 15:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Two things. Number one, I have amended the wording in the template to include a bold and italicized statement to be careful when handling the blacklisted links. Number 2, if you give me a list of pages and links on those pages, I can temporarily add them to the exceptions list. Provided you also filed a whitelist request. Does that sound okay?—

^Chat

_Online 15:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I just gave you the link in my last comment, but as your obviously aren't keeping up here it is again (THIS IS THE LINK TO ALL THE PAGES WITH CABLE-CAR-GUY.COM LINKS). Yes, a whitelist has been filed, two actually, the first was closed as a miss catch, and you commented on the second (THIS IS THE LINK TO THE WHITELIST REQUEST, THE ONE YOU COMMENTED ON). I would suggest that before you start the bot, you take the time to go through the whitelist request page and exempt all the pages that currently have open requests, or simply leave the bot off until this gets sorted out (check meta too). This is getting increasingly frustrating. Liamdavies (talk) 17:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I remind you that my mind is not all there, that I am still recovering from a blow to my head from a roof gutter that decided to fall at the wrong moment. So forgive. I will happily add those to the list for the duration of the whitelist request.—

^Chat

_Online 19:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

If you are still a bit groggy and unwell, maybe it is best to wait until your better to resume the bots operation. This will all keep going the more the bot tags, I'm sure there are people who have (wrongly) removed the tag and think that it is dealt with. When they get proven wrong and the tag starts reappearing the complaints will start again. Get well first. Liamdavies (talk) 14:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

If you are driving down the right road in the right lane at the right speed and see school kids in the road, you don’t drive through them, saying that your engine is running smooth. You stop and think is there a bus? are they running from a fire? can I go around them? Should I turn around? This is just common sense, but was not done very well here. This was running right at its speed limit (already too fast for humans, different issue) right through the kids. Whoa, give us a chance.

Many talk about the blacklist sites being evil, ok, a real problem. But not always. The links blacklisted were already up, no one has shown that any one had caused any problems. Some must have, but no one had any example to show, just theory.

This link is clearly a mistake. This is a nice place, and it’s only being used as an External link. There are not groups of vandals, editors agenda, or whatever, this is clearly an “oops”. But it could have been lost.

If one looks at the programmers talk page, then the names here, well, in some places that may be considered a conflict of interest. I don’t recall seeing any disclaimers.

When Orlady came with other examples, the first answer was another programmer excuse. The next answer assumed that the programmer’s single post was enough to resolve the situation, when it hadn’t been before. A real matter can become a matter of theory with the drop of a colon, while the real problem becomes background.

The bottom line matters. How much time has been spent on the program does not matter. The amount of memory used does not matter. The theory of damage from black lists does not matter. What matters is that the program is causing real problems right now, and must be stopped. It was turned off by force by someone other than the programmer. The programmer was aware that there were problems, and refused to act. Now he is, probably effectively, but look what it took.

There are more than one person here who owe Liamdavies an apology.Sammy D III (talk) 17:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Sammy D III You offering first? The problem with your example in the first case is when you're driving, you're also watching for pedestrians in the road. And conversely the pedestrians are supposed to watch for cars coming. The real bottom line is that your posting here provides an extraordinary amount of heat but zero light and ratchets up the drama of the situation further. Hasteur (talk) 18:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I would be honored to be the first.

Liamdavies, if I have in any way interfered with your efforts to edit a site, I am very sorry.

Liamdavies, if my posting here has in any way embarrassed you, if you think I am counterproductive to your efforts, I am very sorry.

Liamdavies, if you feel that I have not represented your problem accurately, I am very sorry.

Liamdavies, if you feel that my outside POV has been inappropriate, I am very sorry.

Liamdavies, if you feel that in any way it would not be in your best interests to associate with me, please do not, I am sorry if I put you in an awkward position.

Haster, I stand by my example, the programmer was not driving, he was making excuses to the parents of the victims.

I think I will now go to a mirror, and look at someone who stood up for a human who he KNEW was right, over a program which appears to be a problem. Sammy D III (talk) 19:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

??? I'm confused.—

^Chat

_Online 19:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

@Sammy D III: Tagging (and even removing) blacklisted links is completely different from a car deliberately running over children. I don't even think it's appropriate to make that analogy. Also, the bot wasn't causing any "real problems" and wasn't turned off "by force." Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello Jack, I think we have talked before. You are being entirely polite with me, I’ll do my best.

I think that “a car deliberately running over children” is part misunderstanding. I absolutely not think this is “deliberately”, I don’t think anyone here does. I absolutely think this is an unexpected side effect. My meaning is that nothing was done to prevent it, even after it was known.

I believe that Liamdavies’ reverting, apparently struggling to maintain links was "real problems". Maybe not big in your world, but it was happening. And Orlady had other examples. “making 20+ controversial main article tags per minute and it seems bot-edit-warring against editors who try to revert it” was posted above in this thread.

I believe I saw that Liamdavies, a victim, turn off the program, not the programmer, who knew of the problem. There is no physical force here, I apologize for implying that there was, I thought it was a run of mill term.

Someone else posted “And conversely the pedestrians are supposed to watch for cars coming” which I find horrible. School children: “is there a bus? are they running from a fire?” how much do you expect from a first-grader?Sammy D III (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Sammy D III: "The links blacklisted were already up, no one has shown that any one had caused any problems. Some must have, but no one had any example to show, just theory."/"The theory of damage from black lists does not matter." (my bolding) .. No, it is not just theory, it does matter, it causes damage. I said that I ran into that situation where I had to emergency whitelist, revert and de-whitelist because of a blacklisted link (spam-diff damaging the original, blacklisted link, unrelated follow up edit making it impossible to repair the link that was there (it is blacklisted), temp whitelisting, repair, de-whitelisting, remarking on whitelist (some other edits missing to remove more of the affiliate spamming that broke the bet-at-home-page - I felt uncomfortable to whitelist/de-blacklist myself there, feeling somewhat involved and wanted other independent admins to do the real call). Those situations must have occured more, and I am very, very afraid that most editors (especially non-admins) will just have removed the blacklisted link (maybe not even knowing about the possibility of whitelisting) and revert to that version and ignore the problem (as happens now after the tagging, unfortunately, as Hasteur says). Thát is real damage, not theory. The bot, however, is not causing any damage, its tagging may result in damage (for example a human editor is just removing the link), but that is not the bot, that is the human editor who comes afterwards (who does not do what the bot suggests, but just wants to get rid of the, in itself not causing more damage than a {{cleanup}}, tag).

Your analogy with running into school kids crossing is not correct, the objections against the tagging that I see are not of a kind that they think it breaks Wikipedia (or the schoolkids). This is more like running down the road putting warning signs on places where the schoolbus is stopping so that people know that there may, in the future, be schoolkids crossing there, and having objections for the guy doing it, even while he is within the speed-limit. It is one thing that I don't understand here on Wikipedia - if someone (or a bot) is repairing or tagging 50 pages which are on the watchlist of an observer, it is always the messenger that gets shot - what is it: darn, I had 50 pages with mistakes on my watchlist and now I have to check whether they have been repaired properly, or even, I have 50 pages on my watchlist that are tagged as having a (serious) mistake .. I don't have time to fix those 50, lets shoot the messenger and remove the tags so I forget that there is a (serious) mistake?

Hasteur, I know it is happening now with the tagging, I was asking for more examples from the past before the tagging (like the one from April, above), showing that having a (inadvertently) blacklisted link on a page has resulted in damage regarding not being able to revert and, probably, loss of data. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, Dick, I am so sorry for wasting your time, you presented a thoughtful post to what I had turned into a shouting match. I will answer out of politeness. It is hard for me to understand you, I will try.

I don’t mean to belittle the blacklist (even though the idea has historically been misused). I don’t get the reasoning for the urgency, I’m guessing porn somehow. Numbers here are way too large for me to grasp.

The “does not matter” was meant right here, right now, to immediate matters. The list does matter, but not right now to someone who is trying to keep their work intact against a very fast opponent.

The school bus stuff was meant for taking immediate action, instead of debating the theory while the actual stuff continues. The sign is more accurate, but for the effect, I would have had to say injuring kids by pounding the sign through them, nonsense. It was intentionally exaggerated and inflammatory.

The stuff wouldn’t be targeted to you personally, there have been several of you who have taken a reasoned, balanced, thoughtful approach, I thought you were one by at least yesterday.

I believe that many here get a tunnel vision, looking at the big picture but missing the immediate area. Liamdavies is one of you, with a real, immediate problem. I feel he got thrown to the wolves, and that some who dismissed him should apologize. (There are also social issues, which I have tried to skip.)

I don’t really know Liam, I’ve seen him around, and had one really short conversation about this link on his talk page. But I knew that link was good, black and white, absolutely a mistake, and I felt that he wasn’t being listened to. But to be clear, he hasn’t had anything to do with me, and is probably thinking W.T.F?

Thank you for your (wasted) time. Sammy D III (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support Sammy D, I don't really need an apology, we're all adults here and I continue to assume good faith. My problem is that although the bot itself isn't causing harm, the templates it is placing is causing harm through the removal of good links. If nothing else the few runs that the bot did showed enormous flaws in the blacklist. I think the net has been far too wide, and there are many many links that should be removed from the blacklist. Given that I first made my (second) request almost a week ago (the first was dismissed as a false positive with no action taken), and the link has still not had any admin attention I am starting to be quite disheartened with the whitelist process and don't think a bot should be operating if the underlying issues aren't being dealt with - which they aren't.

Over at meta they seem to (due to the diligent work of a steward whom I have ample respect for) have the issue under control, the same cannot be said for here. Simply put, we need admins to start clearing the blacklog and trying their hardest to not have a link pending for more than a few days. If there isn't the infrastructure in place to remove links/sites/pages from the blacklist/place them on the whitelist, then the bot is simply going to - by proxy - cause the destruction of many good links in part of a process of clearing out the bad. The links that shouldn't be on pages should be removed, there is no argument here, and if they were the only links the bot was highlighting there would be no issue, but it is the other links that are being lost that is the issue.

We are here to build an encyclopedia, the process has been going for over ten years without this bot, there is no time limit and when the blacklist issues get sorted the bot should resume full-time operation, but with a clearly broken blacklist the bot will simply (though no fault of its own, or of its owner/operator) cause disruption to the project. Liamdavies (talk) 14:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The process for the tagging has been resolved for a good chunk of links. I have added every link you gave me to the ignore list and am currently adding links requesting whitelisting to the list as well. That way, as the request is being processed, for however long it needs to be, the bot will simply ignore that link on the page and not tag. As a matter of fact it will remove it. Have a look. I think the bot can resume it's operation if this kind of process is maintained, and since I'm really active, addition requests to the ignore list should be answered with 24 hours.—

^Chat

_Online 15:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sammy D III .. I think we are talking, inadvertently, on different wavelenghts, my apologies. The urgency to whitelist links which are in use, for proper reasons, while blacklisted has always been there: sometimes a little-bit-useful site gets blacklisted because of their owners/SEOs pushing just a bit too hard (and whitelisting is there to help that), sometimes a net is put a bit too wide (a site owner of hunrdeds of sites with similar names overlaps in regex with that one site that is not part of his scam), sometimes an owner/SEO of a very, very respectable site is just pushing too hard and the use was not properly researched (no, it is not just porn, in my experience, porn-spam problems are just minor in comparison to other sites, viagra and similar excepted, we do sometimes run into that). Is there now an urgency to tag all of them now: no, maybe not. But since it is now finally done, can we please get over it.

I don't know if the blacklist is really broken .. there may be some mistakes on it or accidental too wide nets .. that is hopefully now also being solved, so that new editors will not run into the blacklist for wrongly/accidentaly blocked links. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:19, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Beetstra, but nothing is happening. Only today - for the first time in over two weeks - were some of the links at the whitelist request page dealt with. Admins need to go an clear the backlog, it is clearly unacceptable that requests routinely wait months for any action. Without adequate infrastructure in place to deal with the blacklist problems I don't see how even a fraction of the 5000 pages highlighted by the bot can be dealt with. If we, the lay editors, are to have faith in this process it must move quicker, if just a fraction of the effort given to this thread were directed to the whitelist requests the backlog wouldn't be there. Liamdavies (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Dirk (I got it right this time).

My question is why was this program not immediately shut down, adjusted, and brought up slowly? Is it crucial to keep this up while the list problems still exist? Why hours, instead of days, or even weeks?

The list is absolutely a big problem, but it isn’t going to go away today, while good links may. Couldn’t the program create its own list, or at least go to the talk page? People have been begging for breathing room.

Thank you for your time.Sammy D III (talk) 18:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sammy D III, Liamdavies .. first my apologies, and I will keep my sarcasm and cynism at bay, and if I don't, it is aimed at the community at large, not at any of you two personally.

This problem has caused loss of good data for the whole time that the blacklisting existed, which is likely something like 10 years now. There have always been good links which have been blocked, there have always been good links (or even not so good links) still there on pages. That is, obvious from the many tags, still the case. Some of those links are bad, some of those links are good, some of the links are just accidentally caught. Is that an urgent problem - yes, I think so, if there are blacklisted links on a page then there will be situations where the link accidentally (or due to spam/vandalism) gets removed, ánd a subsequent edit is made unaware of the problem. Most editors, trying to repair that, will be unaware of blacklists and whitelists, and, at best, just disable/comment out the link, at worst remove the link. That has likely been causing damage to Wikipedia, likely for 10 years now (I do recall other whitelisting requests regarding this problem, but am not sure and they will be impossible to track down - finding cases where no whitelisting was requested will be even less obvious, however, most cases for whitelist request are there after an editor tried to save their (good) link and failed, there must also be cases where editors are trying to save a good link, and leave it because it is blacklisted - the basic issue is the same). Does it have to be solved NOW .. hmm .. no, but I would not let it linger for another year.

List problems are there, mainly accidentally, but most of these links were (well, IMH(somewhat POV)O) rightfully blacklisted as the sites were pushed, spammed or added with a promotional goal, often by large sockfarms whose only interest is to get people to their site. It is mostly not a problem of the list, and even if it is a problem of the list, it will need to be solved and the only way of finding out that something needs a solution is to flag that problem.

The whitelist procedure is slow. <rant>Yes, the community has always been good to slow down the RfA-process, editors don't want to go through that hell, and those editors who do have that urge of self-mutilation are generally not interested in spam (XfD's are much cooler!), and if you are as an editor not interested in XfD but only in spam and self-mutilation, then you will be grilled on both sides during your RfA for not being interested to help with the everlasting backlog of to-be-deleted pages (and plainly fail the RfA, but at least your self-mutilation-goal has been met). And when I ask an editor on RfA on his knowledge and capability to help with the spam blacklist (or the WikiMedia namespace in general where admins could cause havoc as well), I get complaints that the editor is not interested in helping there, the editor is more interested (or at least, should be) in XfD's, that is where the backlog is, and that is what they should be grilled over. I think that it has been years since an editor was made admin who immediately started helping out with the blacklist - the last case I know is someone who got the admin bit solely for keeping the list clean, not making any administrative decisions further. And you say, there is a backlog on the whitelist - there is an even bigger backlog on the blacklist (most of which actively spammed so the non-admins reporting it have a lot of work keeping mainspace clean while waiting), and there is a lot of rubbish being added, spammed, which should be removed and maybe blacklisted while admins are debating whether John Doe is notable enough for his own article on an AfD. Yes, it is absolutely unacceptable that requests routinely have to wait for months. It is also unacceptable that spam stays on Wikipedia for months, years (yeah, every now and then we run into a campaign where spam is being added for a long, long time and no-one notices). I totally agree. But that is not a problem of the tagging, that is not a problem of the bot, it is not a problem of me, it is not a problem of Cyberpower - we have a problem with our own admin corps, there are not enough volunteers there to help out, which results in damage to Wikipedia (more damage than an XfD, or even speedy, that has to wait another day to be deleted).</rant>

Now, we could spread this out - but in the meantime more links are added to the blacklist. And even if it is 10 pages on your watchlist, I don't think that you are the only person watching them, there will be enough other editors watching the page as well who could request the whitelisting for you. Also, I don't see why that tag is such an issue. It is a maintenance tag - just like the cleanup-tags (which are sometimes on pages for 2 1/2 year, or 2 years, and no-one is making an issue out of thát). Why exactly is this tag a problem, even if it stays for a year, and any other maintenance tag is not?

Is this an urgent issue to have the things whitelisted - well, I think there is some urgency, as people are, obviously, deleting blacklisted links (before and after the tagging) because otherwise they cannot save the page, so they (without wanting to!) damage Wikipedia (I had to emergency whitelist, otherwise I could either delete the link altogether, comment it out, or leave the spam). Is it a problem that the page is tagged for 3 months for that, well, I don't think so (and once the whitelisting is requested, Cyberpower's bot can ignore your page and the tag will be removed anyway). Is it a problem that we do this slow so we can spread it out: well, pages are being damaged so I would start the whitelisting process as soon as possible. Is it a problem that the whitelisting has to wait for 3 months, well, yes, but again, that is not a problem of Cyberpower, their bot, me, or the tags. The sooner they get tagged, the sooner one can ask for whitelisting, the sooner the whitelisting is done. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, I don't see why that tag is such an issue. It is a maintenance tag - just like the cleanup-tags (which are sometimes on pages for 2 1/2 year, or 2 years, and no-one is making an issue out of thát). Why exactly is this tag a problem, even if it stays for a year, and any other maintenance tag is not? Simple, as I have said over and over, this tag is a problem because good faith users remove the link and it cannot be replace. With all other tags if a good faith user makes a change that should be undone, it can; in this case if a user makes a good faith change that should be undone, it can't. You can, but you are an admin. I can't and must keep track of pages to fix while I wait the unacceptably long time to wait for a whitelist approval. Beetstra, how many whitelists could you have processed in the time it took to write that rant? How many whitelist requests have been processed since this bot started? Why should the lay user have to be put through this? What is the urgency to this bot starting? Admins need to go to the whitelist request page and start processing them, without that the bot should not be operating, we shouldn't be tagging pages with a problem that admins are refusing to fix. Liamdavies (talk) 08:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Liamdavies, that would happen in any case, you would have to wait for whitelisting whether you were told today or next week or in 6 months.

Whitelisting a link is not a matter of adding it to the whitelist. Those are considered thoughts, need some research, discussion. I am sorry to say, but some of those links for which we have whitelist requests are simply complete rubbish to start with. They should simply not be used barring some exceptions. Links are cannot be blindly whitelisted. So as an answer, maybe 1 .. probably none.

So, we have to leave the problem stand, because there is no-one to solve the problem. What was the urgency of having this bot start? It has been discussed for months, doing a couple of trial runs, and I, for one, have been asking over and over to have more admins on the whitelist. Your suggestion is right, first get more admins to solve the problems, then tag the problem .. but that former does not get done without the latter (and even with the latter, it does not get done). So that postpones the problem into infinity, it will never be solved, it becomes a circular argument: without the tag there is not a huge backlog, so no interested admins preparing (and knowledgeable) to help, with the tag there will be informed requests, but no admins to handle them, just listing the links that are a problem does not help because we don't have the knowledgeable users who know whether a link is really necessary, should be deleted or is replaceable. Doing it slow .. it would not make the requests being handled faster (that slowness is a general problem, tagging or not), moreover, it would likely result in recurring cases and actually give more work. It is a loose-loose situation, resulting in just the damage that we are now trying to prevent. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually Beetstra, in my case it is a simple case of adding it to the whitelist, it has been stated three times that it is a miss catch. My whitelist request has been open longer than this AN, in that time over 10,000 words have been added, six admins have been involved (not one, including you, have process a single request), and nothing has been done. I have completely lost faith in any admin's (including your) ability to deal with this. It is completely unacceptable. Do what the community has trusted you to do, process the whitelist. Liamdavies (talk) 15:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, whether tagged or not, you will have to keep an eye on the 'destruction' of the links on those pages, as they, and likely have before tagging, can not be put back if the page gets edited in a 'bad' way (someone removes the ref with the blacklisted link and puts a {{

cn}}, the cn-tag gets dated, and even I cannot put the original ref back (without administrative trick of emergency whitelisting)). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C}

12:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I feel we are beating a dead horse, there is only Dirk left.

Same question over and over, why does this program need to run so urgently?

I have compromised myself, and should go. Long ago. Good luck Liamdavies, and thanks to everyone for their time answering me. Sammy D III (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

It's my impression that this recent bot run was unusual for tagging a large number of links that had been here for a very long time, but went unnoticed. I was aware of the tagging of links to educationupdate.com because the bot tagged a reference citation that I added in June 2010 (5 months before it was blacklisted at Meta) -- and that had never previously been flagged as problematic. (If the links to that domain had been flagged back in November 2010, the blacklisting would have been amended a long time ago.) Apparently the bot screened for -- and tagged -- many other domains that had never previously been screened for on this wiki. The bot should not be blamed for the fact that these had been overlooked for so long. However, the mass-tagging of links like that one that I added in 2010 has created a need to examine a large number of blacklistings that need to be sorted out by humans. If users are removing templates from articles because they judge the links to be OK, that doesn't solve the problem with the blacklist, but having the bot go back and re-add the template the next day doesn't help either -- and is disruptive to the community. Let the dust settle on this "bot gone wild" collection before letting the bot re-tag the same articles all over again. (Is there a concise master list of the domains that the bot tagged in this run? Instead of waiting for individuals to figure out how to file whitelist requests, it would be useful to look over the list to identify blacklistings that need to be reviewed.) --Orlady (talk) 13:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm going to turn on the bot and let it make one run. There are now 100s of tags that it wants to remove, and I applied an update that will identify the rule and blacklist is causing the link to be flagged as spam to make it easier to request whitelisting.—
  ^Chat
  _Online 14:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I've turned it off. This ANI is still open. Liamdavies (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no requirement on my part to wait for this ANI to close. This thread has become a dead horse at this point, and many here have defended the bot with few objecting to it.—

^Chat

_Online 15:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I want my objection to this action noted. There is a moral obligation (if nothing else) to not operate this bot until (real world) objections are dealt with. Liamdavies (talk) 15:42, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I would also like it noted that I - unlike the bot - will not edit war this (bad) choice. Cyber, do the right thing and voluntarily turn the bot off. Liamdavies (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

More are in favor of this on, than off. Your pages, are not going to get tagged. I don't understand morality behind this. There is a process of getting rid of the tags quickly set up. The bot is making a run to add more information to the tags and remove hundreds of them that are no longer valid. Your objection has been noted. Please only disable the bot if there is a bug. This discussion has gone on for an entire week and has died off at this point, with several editors commenting and only 3 of them with objections.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberpower678 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 3 October 2013‎

I think one run is okay for now. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

This is why I said I was compromised:

”I have been wondering how fast someone can learn to program. Could programming skills be learned faster than life experiences? If I am old and stupid, why couldn’t someone be young and smart? Maturity is so subjective, and easily offensive, but couldn’t it affect Wikipedia? It would be almost impossible to address there, but could be an issue, correct?

Now that I have contacted you outside, I have to stay away from you inside. Conspiracy/conflict of interest bothers me more than some. Besides, I only have one question, no matter how many times and ways I ask it."

I don’t know if this can even stay up. I have received no answer. And the programmers talk page is still active on this issue.Sammy D III (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:19, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Possible solution

I haven't had the time to follow all fine points of this discussion, but in the dozens of cases on my watchlist the tag is inapt and inappropriate most of the time so i'll simply remove it. In most cases, I think the link is a good link. In other cases, the link may or may not be questionable but tagging the top of the main article page to call a link into question is a disservice to the reader and should instead be some kind of comment or request on the talk page. That reflects my opinion on the article, and I don't think a bot editing thousands of articles per day establishes consensus otherwise. I trust that the bot will not edit war against me here, as it continues to do.[42] Again, bad memories of betabot, the notion that aggressively uncareful bot coding can create policy over the objections of human editors. If the bot persists, either the bot or I have to stop. I'd appreciate if the bot creator or someone else would call a halt to this, and create a script to simply remove them all. If anyone wants to suggest that articles have blacklisted links on them, they can put a notice on the talk page. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The article you linked to contains a link on the blacklist, removing the tag is not a solution, whitelisting or removing the link is the only solution. Although I agree the bot should only tag a page once every two days or so, you shouldn't think that by removing the link the problem is solved. One of two possible scenarios arise, one is that the link is actually spam and should therefore be removed, the second is that the link is valuable and should be removed from the blacklist or whitelisted. I suggest you make a choice on what to do, removing the tag without further action is not an option.

My primary problem is that the whitelisting process is pathetically slow, and that to edit war an overly ambitious bot while awaiting action is absurd. Cyber has addressed to an extent this problem by having a temporary exemption list for the bot. But that does not remove the need for a link to be whitelisted, or for admins to go and process the whitelist. Liamdavies (talk) 13:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

It is a solution to remove the tag. In these cases I don't believe the link is spam nor do I believe defacing the top of the article is an appropriate solution to an editing concern. It's up to the bot creator to respect consensus here, not up to me to chase behind the bot on the bot's schedule (one of the Betabot flaws) making dozens of whitelist requests whenever it happens to be active. I suspect it would revert past 3RR if it came to it, it's coded to edit war, and the last thing Wikipedia needs is to be patrolled by edit warring bots. Anyway, I've stumbled on a potential solution, I'll see if it works. Wikidemon (talk) 15:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not. If the link is incorrectly being caught by the blacklist it should be whitelisted, not ignored. If you think the link is good go get a whitelist request and get Cyber to get the bot to ignore the link while the whitelist request is being processed. I agree that the bot shouldn't edit war, and should only ad the tag once every few days. But removing the tag and doing nothing else is not the solution. Liamdavies (talk) 17:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

That's your opinion, I have mine, and we may each edit accordingly. I do not wish to participate in the whitelist process dozens of times to deal with inappropriate tagging of article pages by a bot. If I look at an article and think the tag shouldn't be there, there's no policy reason why I'm not allowed to do that, nor any reason I should be forced to work on the bot's schedule just because some users play with to bots and others like me do not. That was exactly Beta's problem, and you can see where that one ended. Bots should not be making disputed edits, period. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

A placeholder for the record here. The original purpose if this AN/I report is stale, and it's likely this will expire with no action. Fine, but don't interpret the lack of actionable administrator response (other than shutting down the bot initially) to reflect policy or consensus on the matter. The more I look into this, the more clear it is that the bot operation is against procedure, policy and consensus. The history of comments, bug fixes, objections, and disputes over this bot make clear this is not wise or according to consensus. Disputed mass edits by bot are at a fundamental level antithetical to Wikipedia. I'll make sure this gets fixed one way or another. To Cyber—"ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?"—power, you have much to learn here. You can get with the program or fight it, but in the interest of maintaining the encyclopedia I strongly urge you to be less combative and a lot more collaborative about automating mass-edits. I'll try some simple approaches to minimize the damage if the bot keeps running amok. Best figure it out informally than keep digging the hole that got Beta banned. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:56, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Since the BRFA passed, consensus IS that the bot should run, and that remains so, since no clear consensus against it was established here. Also, how is tagging problems with articles antithetical to Wikipedia? Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:00, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

What consensus? Nobody asked me or any of the other editors on these pages. Local consensus in one place, here an obscure bot approval page, does not make policy across the encyclopedia. It's pretty obvious that the community has not approved the notion that thousands (or more?) of articles containing old links that are later blacklisted, some of them highly rated prominent articles, should retroactively be tagged on top of the article page with an often-inaccurate claim that the article may contain a spam link. If there were consensus for such a thing, then approving the bot to carry it out would be a technicality. However, the burden is on people wanting those tags across the encyclopedia to establish that's something the editors agree to. If not, per BRD, the editors will remove, disable, or otherwise get rid of the links and then we can have a wider discussion. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring is edit warring. The approval was to tag articles -- not edit war with human editors to keep applying the tag. Basic wikiquette is BRD -- if the tag is reverted the bot should be going to the talk page, not retagging. Even during the BRFA, the coder was argumentative; concerns were raised regarding the interaction with the community: [43]. Additionally, it's not working correctly -- tagging http://www.2ndchapterofacts.com/recordings/hymns-instrumental.htm [44] on Hymns Instrumental. This bot needs to stop. NE Ent 01:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC) Requested BRFA remove approval [45] NE Ent 01:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't want the bot stopped. The articles I watch that have been tagged were all tagged correctly in my opinion - copyvio sites in particular.

talk

) 08:29, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I just posted the following:::That is the first time that I have seen copyright violations mentioned.Sammy D III (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2013 (UTC). Why was it deleted?Sammy D III (talk) 14:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• Your post was removed through an edit conflict, surely a mistake. Liamdavies (talk) 16:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you are right, so sorry for the implication, thank you.Sammy D III (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

A recent

Previously, HistorNE was the one doing the disputed split of the original template in early September and the only one opposing the

I exluded all events irrelevant to separatism and that's all. No consensus can change fact that you don't have any reliable source which describe 80% events as "separatism". Regarding editing culture of this Israeli user, just to mention few from this talkpage: misusing sources, violating WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, insisting on WP:POV directly opposed to WP:RS, prefering unreliable sources and unfinished working papers instead of academic books written by most eminent scholars, forcing version full of inner "citation needed" and header POV template, reverting everything like he WP:OWN article and acting WP:ICANTHEARYOU toward all relevant criticism, etc. --HistorNE (talk) 19:37, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. It should be noted that during proposed merging user Otr500 adviced merging under some neutral name like "Kurdish conflict(s) in Iran" or "Kurdish–Iranian conflict", but still Greyshark09 deseperately wants to keep all conflicts under "separatism" title. --HistorNE (talk) 19:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The issue is simple - you refuse to follow community consensus and edit war at all related articles and templates (apparently nothing changed since this explanation by an administrator). Currently i don't edit those pages, so WP:OWN applies to you.GreyShark (dibra) 14:30, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Another topic

• This editor also removed a category from an article, where that category was justified by a sourced part of the article's text, see this edit. This edit might be POV related. At best, removal of a sourced category is careless editing, and the editor should be warned. Debresser (talk) 01:03, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

For an encyclopaedia article on a historical topic the source is junk. Popular history written by a non-academic, non-specialist, non-historian, not published in an academic press. The claims you want to introduce to the article (that the suppression of the Bar Kokhba revolt was an example of genocide that resulted in "an almost complete depopulation of Judea and an attempt to erase Judeans from history") are fairly exceptional and would require good quality sources. Added to that, the claims seem to be at odds with what has been written by academic experts published under academic imprint (see e.g. Davies, Finkelstein, Katz et al 2006 pp23). Dlv999 (talk) 04:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The point is that HistorNE shows a pattern of edit-warring, which he continues even after this thread was opened and after I warned him not to remove sourced information [47] [48]. In addition, he posted an personal attack and insult on my talkpage [49], which comment I find bordering on anti-semitic in fact, convincing me of a lack of good faith from this editor. Not to mention, Dlv999, that calling the source "junk" is an exaggeration. Debresser (talk) 08:53, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I am being harassed by

I'm not even going to waste my time on this. User leaves invalid edit warring template on my talk page so when I dare to leave the same one on his I get accused of harassment..... That was the first time I have ever left anything on his talk page! The first insulting revert he mentions is done on my talk page to remove another of his unwarranted warnings out of frustration. If anyone is being "harassed" here (and by the way nobody is) it is me! Spc 21 (talk) 22:55, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Worth pointing out Spc 21 has been blocked three times for edit warring in the past, so rather than myself reverting his change to Tim Howard (and other articles) I looked for advice, where I was insulted. JMHamo (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Worth pointing out I haven't broken the 3RR. I changed dates of footballers infoboxes to more accurate ones and get accused of harassment.... On a side note please stop bombarding my talk page with continuous notes, templates and invalid warnings..... some might view such behaviour as harassment..... Spc 21 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

For the benefit of the reviewing Admin, can you please provide Diffs of these. When I try to enter in to discussion with you per

Perhaps you should both just let it go? It seems like the easiest thing to do before it gets out of hand. Ross Hill Talk to me!  23:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I would appreciate a block for this user as I feel very harassed and bullied by his behaviour towards me especially as he has been warned by an Admin about this a few days ago as I have included above, not very

WP:CIVIL at all. JMHamo (talk

) 23:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

It is clear at this point both JMHamo and Spc 21 have been adequately informed about the 3rr rule, so hopefully there is no need for either of them to post on each other's talk page. While Spc 21 has been incivil, editors are generally not blocked as punishment for that. I also note there was reversion back and forth on, for example, Tim Howard but neither editor posted anything to Talk:Tim Howard. Discussion on article talk page is highly preferred to dualing edit summaries. NE Ent 23:51, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry JMHamo but i kind of understand the angrement from the other editors. You often "abuse" the warnings and it looks like trying to scare people of. I understand if editors feel "attacked". Instead you should also have started discussion at for instance

@Qed237: Please get your facts straight before you edit. Making an ~~~~~ Infobox datestamp is not edit warring, in fact it's the right thing to do for that template, as it states in the template documentation. JMHamo (talk) 00:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Infobox football biography

@JMHamo: this is the first time from what I have seen that you told anyone about this template documentation. Do you have a link for it? To me you are aggrevating all other users. The warnings feels misplaced sometimes. User:GiantSnowman (an admin) also stated that "I think you were being extremely childish JMHamo but hopefully you have learnt a lesson", about the 5 tildes he says: "Yes, it's preferred, but there's nothing wrong with using the date of the last match, as long as it is clear that is what is happening" and also " I don't understand why he insists on changing it." about JMHamo. However, right or wrong, your actions are not appropriate and as I said you have not said a word about the template doc before. To me you are edit warring. QED237 (talk) 00:24, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

This template doc is not a secret. Here is the link again Infobox football biography

@Qed237: Please check your information before you post, so that you don't look silly. The comment "I think you were being extremely childish JMHamo but hopefully you have learnt a lesson" was posted by a disruptive IP, not GiantSnowman. JMHamo (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

@JMHamo: IF I should follow your example maybe I should warn you for harrassment now? I dont like editors telling me "dont look silly". I might have made a mistake but no need for that comment. You are unfortunately an editor that has easy to make other angry and should look at your behaviuor. And also I dont see anywhere in that link the the timestamps "must" be like you want them to be, it is just an example. I get the feeling I ahould probably end this now before being warned bu JMHamo. QED237 (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

If you make an accusation about me and don't bother to check, who said what, then yes, you do look silly, but I will put that down to inexperience, so no offence. Also, if you read the doc you will see the date stamp in the club-update, which you get from five ~~~~~ JMHamo (talk) 00:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Well the fact that you call me unexperienced I take as an offense. Just because I copy-and-pasted wrong in this "fast" growing discussion" does not mean I am inexperienced. And I know how the five tildes look so please do not lecture me about that! Yes looking at the timestamps in the documentation it is the five tildes (I am not blind) but it is in "example". Nowhere does it say that is must be this timestamp and there is no consensus to use it. QED237 (talk) 00:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps making comments like "please get your facts straight" might be one of the reasons for all of this. You talk to experienced editors very disrespectfully.... By the way that isn't insulting it's just my opinion. You changed infoboxes so that it could look like a player has played for a national team and a club at exactly the same time. I changed it so it said player has played for club on match played on x october etc. That is not edit warring but actually improves the articles. This is what I tried to say on your talk page but you are yet to reply to my comment there and would instead prefer to claim I'm harassing you when quite clearly I am not. Spc 21 (talk) 00:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Spc 21 that is very true. I feel that User:JMHamo is also very fast in letting people no that "he has been blocked before" but we should remember that he has been blocked for editwarring himself earlier. QED237 (talk) 01:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I mean that both of you are less than a year editing, but we are getting away from the point. JMHamo (talk) 01:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm coming up on 2 years but never mind.....You're on 8 years and still call people silly. I'm interested.... you call users silly on these pages which you know many people will see and it's ok. I do it when removing rubbish from my talk page which chances are no one will ever see and it's harassment and bullying? Spc 21 (talk) 01:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually feeling very weird for the first time editing wikipedia. I know I have a red username but I have made 11,000 edits and run the PDC darts section on wiki almost single handed. I have not harassed anyone nor would I ever. I made a stupid comment a week ago for which I was warned. The comment was made to revert an unjustified warning on my talk page. I have not insulted said user since in fact I have praised him on another talk page before all of this advising him to stop with his timestamp reverts as other editors have had the same problems with him that I have. I also stated my opinion on his talk page before all of this. Spc 21 (talk) 00:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I asked for advice from an experienced user (Struway2) on their Talk page because Tim Howard was just one of the edits of mine that this user reverted - Leighton Baines, Leon Osman and Phil Jagielka being others that were reverted too. It's the uncivil attitude that makes me feel very uncomfortable, I would like to discuss this content dispute, put when you're told that you are a "silly tit", that to me is bullying. It's the abuse that's upsetting me, not the reverts! I did not come to ANI about reverts! JMHamo (talk) 00:06, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes I said silly tit on my own talk page to remove your first unwarranted warning and if I'm totally honest you are my proving that my stupid, throwaway comment wasn't far off the mark..... If you are deeply troubled by someone you are never going to meet calling you a "silly tit" then I am very sorry. I find it hard to believe given your aggressive editing style and frequent use of unwarranted warning templates that you haven't read far worse on here. I was told not to do it again and I haven't done it since. I would be appalled if anyone thinks my editing tonight could be construed as harassment or now bullying as you claim. I have said nothing insulting to you and have used your talk page two times. You have bombarded mine with multiple warnings I don't deserve. Maybe I should request a block for you? Spc 21 (talk) 00:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Spc 21 can you please provide Diffs for the times I used "unwarranted warning templates" rather than refer to them. The fact still remains you were warned by an Admin about your attitude towards me, and you didn't listen. I am not going to let anybody bully me online. JMHamo (talk) 00:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry JMHamo, but he did get warned for that about a week ago and after that I have seen no harrassment. However you keep warnings fly everywhere. QED237 (talk) 00:30, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes I was warned and as I've said countless times above I have not insulted you since. I made a stupid remark when removing an unjustified warning from you. That is all I am guilty of. No I will not be providing any diffs as it takes me forever. I am more used to editing on articles really... As you can see from my contributions on here 97% of my 11,000 edits come on articles like improving darts and snookers pages and updating Everton players and seasons. That's all I do on wikipedia. Spc 21 (talk) 00:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Qed237 and Spc 21 can't be bothered to provide Diffs to back up their allegations, to allow me answer fairly. But this is not about content, content disputes are not why I am here! It is about uncivil behaviour towards me by Spc 21, which I take offence to after he was warned about it previously. JMHamo (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm past caring now. Your allegations are spurious. Since I was warned a week ago for saying you're a silly tit when removing your unwarranted warnings from my talk page I haven't insulted you once (if it is a truly terrible thing to write in the first place). So I don't really understand what you're taking offence to. As I said above - why are you allowed to call people silly and when other people do it to you it's highly offensive and harassment? Get real! As an aside can users be punished for claiming harassment and bullying when there's no grounds for it? I don't edit on here to be dragged onto these noticeboards by people with nothing better to do. Oh and that's not offensive you've been pestering admins and other users the last 14 and a half hours. It's actually a fact. Now leave me alone I have not done anything wrong and am getting increasingly annoyed with all of this rubbish. Spc 21 (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

All I am asking for is an experienced Admin to review my initial complaint and decide. I am not interested in what you think about my time online or if you think I have nothing better to do. JMHamo (talk) 01:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

No people are free to do what they want it's just an observation. You've been looking at a computer screen for almost 15 hours maybe you're not thinking straight. Besides me saying you're a silly tit a week ago have you found anything I've wrote that even remotely constitutes to harassment yet? And to the reviewing admin what options do I have when someone puts in false claims such as these? May I also point you to what an admin wrote on their talk page some time ago? I thought then that this nonsense would end there.... Spc 21 (talk) 01:57, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

For the record User Ross Hill is not an Admin JMHamo (talk) 02:04, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Well he should be - the guy talks sense. Can you show me how I have insulted, bullied and harassed you besides saying you're a silly tit almost a week ago. I don't know what you think that even means as I don't find it at all offensive but if it is I am sorry. So me removing a warning from you on my talk page and calling you a silly tit is the worst thing I have done to you.... Do you really think in your wildest dreams that is harassment or bullying? It isn't! Show here all the other times I have insulted you - I know I haven't! Harassment means a continual attack.... You've only known I edit on here a week, I've posted on your talk page twice neither of which said anything bad and I've reverted a few of your edits for reasons I expressed in the edit summary and your talk page before all of this happened. Why didn't you just reply on your talk page before? At the maximum we are both edit warring....nothing else has happened. Spc 21 (talk) 02:21, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Spc 21 I no longer want to interact with you. I have made my point and have nothing else to add. JMHamo (talk) 02:27, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

You have nothing to use against me! I responded to you here and here. I posted on your talk page two times. I removed your unjustified warnings from my own talk page one with a stupid comment. I have reverted a few of your edits all for the same reason at Leighton Baines and Leon Osman. I believe the edit summaries adequately explain why I did that. That is all the contact we have ever had. I truly fail to see how that equals harassment, bullying or anything else. No other editor who has contributed to this agrees with you. In my opinion you are an editor who must be right and when someone stands up to you you shower them with warnings. Most back down but when someone doesn't you drag them through this. None of my interactions with you deserve to be labelled as harassment at all and I look forward to the speedy closing of this rubbish very soon. Spc 21 (talk) 02:41, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Look, this is going round in circles and just seems to be you two arguing. JMHamo, what are you actually trying to achieve here? GiantSnowman 11:10, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say this bickering calls for two orders of trout but there seems like a genuine content conflict that is likely to continue unless it's resolved. Maybe an RfC is in order on the appropriate WikiProject about time stamps? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:36, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, JMHamo has also been undoing all of my edits and edit warring with me for over a month, even after he was told there was nothing wrong with my edits to begin with. Now he is bombarding my talk page with spurious warnings for harmless edits and continuing to undo random edits in an effort to try and provoke me into reverting edits and to get me banned. He is causing a constant disruption to me and other users, and several dozen pages have been locked so far because of his edit warring with other users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.243.163 (talk) 13:13, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

I do not know if DerbyCountyinNZ is an editor or not, but said user informed me that I needed to go to this page to resolve our difference, so here I am. I added an entry to the Deaths section of the 1906 page. Buck Ewing died on Oct. 6th, 1906. He was a Major League Baseball Hall of Famer. I felt that this made him significant enough to qualify for such an entry on the page. Derby contends that he should only be on the "1906 in the United States" page because he is not internationally significant. I countered that the U.S. is part of the international community and that there are thousands of Americans on the death pages throughout the years including many MLB Hall of Famers. Derby continues to undo my entry of Ewing and, quite frankly, I'm genuinely confused as to why he/she has a problem with THIS entry when so many other Americans and HOFers are listed in the death sections of the international pages. All I am asking is that this entry be allowed and that Derby quit undoing it. It is not an offensive or controversial entry that I can see.Twinsdude (talk) 04:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

User:DerbyCountyinNZ is just as much an editor as you (as us all) are. --MuZemike 05:20, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Just a quick note, as explained at DerbyCountyinNZ's talk page, they were not directing you here to resolve the problems but instead simply suggesting they will ask for a block if you continued. Regardless of what was likely to happen, this is not the place to resolve your differences. You both need to stop editing and discuss on the

rarely a good argument for or against inclusion particularly without considering possible differences or establishing widespread consensus for such automatic inclusion (which is very rare). Nil Einne (talk

) 07:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud, ANI is supposed to be the equivalent of dialing 911, not for when someone cuts in line boarding the trolley or doesn't pick up after their dog. Just invite some other editor you happen to know to join the discussion, or get someone from

WP:EA, or something. EEng (talk

) 2:49 pm, Today (UTC−4)

The issue is not about the discussion, it is about what the user is doing with people's comments which is an ANI issue as it is concerned with user behavior. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 19:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

ANI is, as you say, for behavioral and not content issues, but it's more specific than that: it's for serious matters requiring immediate attention of (typically) administrators. This situation doesn't qualify. I'm not trying to be harsh but ANI is way overloaded with marginal issues without also having to carry the clearly inappropriate. Just get one or two people you know to join you on the Talk page, and if that doesn't resolve it escalate appropriately. EEng (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

To echo EEng, Ahnoneemoos, AN/I should be the next to last place you go to resolve an intractable dispute (the last place being ARBCOM). You should try other ways to resolve the dispute before coming here.

I don't think it takes great patience to deal with this, just go to Op47's Talk page and tell them, in a friendly way, that it might be useful if they looked over Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines in order to learn about proper behavior posting on Talk Pages. Or, you can post a note at the top of the Talk Page that advises Editors to post their new comments at the bottom of the page. There are plenty of things you can do that don't require a great deal of effort and will deescalate your apparent annoyance. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply but I'm not interested in doing any of those things as I'm not an administrator. Hence why I'm posting at ANI so that an administrator can handle since at the end of the day that's why they agreed to become an admin. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

A user does not have to be an admin to do everyday notifications and cleanup. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 23:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• Jessy9009 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Y.Adinarayana Reddy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• YerrapuReddy Ravindra Reddy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Jessy has an extensive family whose members should all have articles at Wikipedia "so that many people who are searchin for occurance of thair family and law records and psycology students to have projects on them". Jessy's edits came to my attention when I deleted A.V.Narsimha Reddy. Then I looked at his other edits and became concerned. After I screwed up by BLPPRODing a dead person, I bowed out partially and enlisted the support of @Titodutta: who is much more knowledgeable about this subject matter than I am anyway.

The second article above is now listed at AfD.

However, Jessy's edits to two other articles are even more problematic. For example, he added a copyrighted image to Samantha Ruth Prabhu, which he had uploaded to Commons claiming that it was his own work (he still claims he's the copyright holder on his talk page). He got into a battle there with another editor, and I tagged the image at Commons for speedy deletion.

His editing at Rayachoti borders on vandalism. He oddly changed the name of the municipality to Jose Avila and added a tremendous amount of unsourced material to the article (he's not big on sourcing).

Finally, as I was writing this, he created a sock puppet (mimicking my user name), User:Bb31323, which created two edits, one to the Rayachoti article adding back in the garbage, and one to the AfD, which was priceless: "yes you may continue with YerrapuReddy Ravindra Reddy no problem in it pl continue . Regards Wiki management USA." Both have been reverted.

I have blocked the puppet indefinitely and blocked Jessy for two weeks, figuring that even if I'm

• Yes straightforward and clear. --Tito☸Dutta 18:45, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

• I've deleted the first article as a CSD:G12 - the entire thing was copied from copyrighted web pages and a book available on Google Books. There's a big difference between using a book as a source and copying it verbatim. The subject might actually be notable - but the article is simply a copyvio. (FYI The second article, currently at AfD, does not appear to have any obvious copyvio). Black Kite (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Zmaher (talk · contribs) is an oddball. Though his talk page shows some old warnings, the bulk of his edits concern Russia–United States relations (history) and appear to be perfectly fine. But when it comes to the world of entertainment, he seems to be hell-bent on adding long, very long descriptions to articles. For instance on Red Dawn (2012 film), he made his fair share of reverts and has subsequently been warned over his attitude. I myself noticed Zmaher's edits on the article of the video game Frontlines: Fuel of War. His description was over 25,000 characters long, overly detailed and unnecessary (see diff). After I cleaned up the article, I saw that he reverted it (see history). I gave him a warning over this, to which has not responded. And that's just it, he does not communicate at all: does not respond to talk page messages (or even deletes them). --Soetermans. T / C 19:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I reverted Zmaher's overly-long additions to Red Dawn almost a month ago, but he had not returned to the article since then. I know nothing of his other edits, past what Soetermans has pointed out above. He does not use edit summaries, which is quite annoying, and this seems to be part of his overall lack of communication. It might be good if someone reminded him that WP is a collaborative project and that he needs to explain his edits and engage other editors in constructive communication. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 19:48, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

What happened to the archive bots? They don't seem to be running on ANI, AIV, AN3, or RFPP that I can tell. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

During these perilous botless times, Mark has graciously manually archived AN3 and, bravely, ANI (those are the two I know about). A vote of thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:27, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at

Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#FYI_--_archive_bot_down. NE Ent

10:05, 7 October 2013 (UTC)