Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive849
Joan Juliet Buck
Such a minor issue but nevertheless escalating into an edit war. Could someone look at the recent edits to her categories by Johnparklambert? His deleting her from the general American journalists category in favor of American women journalists category smacks of the sexism that appeared earlier in categorization reported by Salon.com. thanks--
- Maybe this is a misunderstanding? Look at this diff, where he explains why, because it's in the subcat, so no need to list it again. Also, he left a note at your talk explaining as well.(talk) 00:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) From the edit history on that page, it appears that the user respected your objections and merely retagged it a different way that wouldn't be offensive to you. I don't see an issue here. ♥ Solarra ♥ ♪ 話 ♪ ߷ ♀ 投稿 ♀ 01:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The box at the top of Category:American women journalists says it is a "non-diffusing subcategory of Category:American journalists". That means the latter is not removed when the former is added. Except there is an "out" which is claimed to mean that women should be shunted to their own category because of another category. There have been previous disputes regarding gender wars, and I would welcome a decision somewhere that no "women" categories should exist unless a corresponding "men" category is created, with both categories being populated in the same manner (actually, I would welcome a decision to delete all "women" categories like this). Johnuniq (talk) 04:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- People aren't actually doing it enough, I grant you — but ideally, all American journalists are supposed to be subcatted by the particular type of journalism they did (radio vs. TV vs. newspaper vs. magazine; reporters and correspondents vs. columnists vs. news anchors; fashion vs. sports vs. political; etc.), and Category:American journalists itself is supposed to be empty of individual articles. In addition, I see that 27 US states have their own subcategories of Category:American journalists by state, while the other 23 don't yet — but if that scheme were complete, it would also diffuse all journalists out of the undifferentiated "American journalists" category. Then Category:American women journalists wouldn't be causing a problem, because it wouldn't be pulling women out of any other category that they should be in.
- As long as the parent category isn't actually getting diffused, however, I understand that this looks like a problem — but the point is that Category:American journalists can be fully diffused on grounds independent of gender. It isn't the final base category that any journalist, male or female, is supposed to be sitting in — the journalists are actually all supposed to be diffused into more specific subcategories, and are sitting directly in the parent category only because of simple editor laziness rather than because the category itself is nondiffusable in principle.
- The ghettoization rule was always meant to preclude gendering categories that couldn't otherwise be diffused on non-gender grounds, which isn't actually the situation here. I realize that the current "gendered subcategories aren't diffusing of the parent, while nongendered location or specific-type subcategories still are" situation is causing a lot of confusion about how we are or aren't supposed to be handling gendered categories — but the only "violation" happening in this case is that people aren't actually doing the work of cleaning Category:American journalists up properly. Bearcat (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The underlying problem here is the promotion of the flawed concept of "non-diffusing subcategories". The default rule (WP:HOTCAT now requires loading up a raft of new tabs.) 09:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The idea of "non-diffusing subcategories" has been promoted in good faith as a solution to the ghettoisation problem (in particular by Obiwankenobi), but it ignores the practical reality of the means by which categories are populated and diffused. It is theoretical solution which doesn't work in practice, a point which I made repeatedly in this discussion and which Bearcat has made in a more recent discussion.
Bearcat and I do not often agree, but we appear to take the same view in this case: that if a sub-cat can exist only by being labelled as non-diffusing, then it shouldn't exist at all. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs- Excellent, so let's delete Category:American women journalists because it is absurd that for whatever reason a female journalist, unlike her male colleagues, is not in Category:American journalists except from a ghetto subcat. Alternatively, create Category:American men journalists for the males (yuck). Johnuniq (talk) 10:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody, male or female, is actually supposed to be filed directly in Category:American journalists; they're supposed to be filtered down into more specific subcategories for the specific type of journalism they did (fashion, sports, politics, etc.), the specific platform in which they did journalism (radio, TV, newspaper, etc.), the specific journalistic role they held (reporter, columnist, anchor, etc.), and on and so forth. The fact that people aren't actually doing the work, and are instead leaving thousands of journalists directly in the main parent category, speaks to editor laziness more than anything else — Category:American journalists isn't the end category that any journalist is actually meant to be sitting in. Bearcat (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- This again? You'll never fix the category "system" without a fundamental rethink. You don't do it by creating every category you can think of as an answer to every question everyone might ever have. You certainly don't do it by having inconsistencies like "non-diffusing", then trying to use them willy-nilly as band aids to hide the gaping wounds in the "system". You do it by storing attributes then querying them.
- Don't create a category "Fluffy pink bunnies living in France with white cars and 6 children", then put Foofoo the bunny in it, only to later move her to "Fluffy pink bunnies living in France with blue cars and 8 children". That's madness.
- Give Foofoo the attributes: Texture=fluffy, colour=pink, species=rabbit, children=6, car owner=true, car colour=white, residence=France - etc - for anything you care about. Then categories are simply queries of attributes (which you can cache/provide links for).
- Yes, it's a huge task, and a whole new system, and should have been addressed years ago - but the task won't get smaller, and what exists as a category "system" now is fundamentally useless in many cases, and utterly unscaleable. Honestly, if all the time that went into arguing about it was diverted into designing an attribute/query system that worked, you might be surprised how much progress could be made. Perhaps this was intended to be the point of WikiData, or one of them, but regardless, it's the only sane alternative. Begoon talk 10:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- This makes too much sense. I've often wondered why we stick with unwieldy categories when attributes would be more flexible and allow for much more powerful searches. --NeilN talk to me 13:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's actually been proposed many times by many editors over the years. You're absolutely correct that it's probably a better way than our current system, because it would indeed be more flexible and more powerful — we do occasionally have users who have legitimate and genuine reasons to want to see groupings that are either are either too overgeneralized (e.g. "all women" or "all American people") or too overgranular (e.g. "feminist organizations based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania" or "people in a particular occupation born in a particular year") for us to permit under the current method. (And as someone who devotes far more time than I'd wish to category cleanup, I can attest that we also have quite a few editors who do seem to think categories already work that way — I come across entirely too many articles where instead of adding the intersected Category:American science fiction writers, an editor has applied "American", "science fiction" and "writers" as three distinct standalone category declarations.)
- Under a tag-based system, we could apply each individual attribute on its own as a standalone tag, and the user could generate the specific grouping he or she wanted to see by generating an on-the-fly intersection of tags X, Y and Z, instead of requiring us to actively curate that intersection as an actual category. As well, it would vastly reduce how much time we would need to waste on tasks such as arguing at CFD about categories, or monitoring categories such as Category:Writers or Category:Politicians for entries that have been directly added there instead of to appropriate subcategories. And I also believe that there could be ways to make such a system directly watchlistable, so that inappropriate or unsourced categories (e.g. the frequent use of "LGBT people" categories as a form of vandalism or attack editing against people who aren't LGBT) can be caught more promptly.
- But despite the many times moving to a tag-based system has been proposed in the past, we're still working with the current flawed system. I don't know if the development team have tried in the past and found it to be unworkable for technical/programming reasons, or if they just haven't ever really acted on the proposals at all for some reason (e.g. as often as I've seen it bruited about among editors as a wishlist item, maybe nobody's ever actually approached the developers with a real suggestion for them to actually act upon?) Maybe one of the developers could speak to the situation, because I don't really know whether there's a specific reason why things haven't moved in that direction or not. Bearcat (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Aichik, for the record, this isn't actually a problem. As I explained above, Category:American journalists is supposed to be fully diffused on non-gendered grounds, such as the subject of their journalism (fashion, sports, politics, etc.) or the platform in which they did journalism (radio, TV, magazine, newspaper, etc.). So she's not getting removed from that category on the basis of her inclusion in Category:American women journalists, but on the basis of her inclusion in Category:American fashion journalists. The "women" subcat may be marked as non-diffusing — but that's actually a moot point, because the by-subject and by-platform categories are diffusing and so Category:American journalists is actually meant to be empty of individual articles — the fact that people aren't actually doing the work is a different matter entirely. So JPL's edit here was actually exactly correct. Bearcat (talk) 15:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gonna take me awhile to figure all this out. Thanks for your patience;)--talk) 17:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gonna take me awhile to figure all this out. Thanks for your patience;)--
- I knew the way I was doing the diffusion was bound to be confusing, at least if people just read the individual edits, but it was clearly in line with the guidelines. For an example of why Category:American journalists is not going to get dispersed anytime soon look at Anya Kamenetz. I guess I should have put her in a more specific sub-cat. Is there Category:American magazine writers?John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The number 1 program with categories is they are not effectively watchable with a watchlist. You have to periodically go to categories you want to watch to see what is there, and this means that if they have over 1000 entries, it is hard to know what is going on. On the other hand, Anya Kamenetz may show the draw-back to our current system. She is now in 4 sub-cats of Category:American journalists, and if we fully disperse that category, I would expect us to average even more, since she is not in a category based on the genre of journalism she does, just the medium. To make things worse, I would expect significant over-lap between magazines and newspapers. The journalists by state may also be a less than helpful way to break them down, since many journalists have moved between several television stations or newspapers, and thus been journalists in nearly half a dozen states.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Another question that we may want to consider, should categories for people at a specific newspaper be sub-cats of the by nationality categories, or not? I would say not, because a person can be a Los Angeles Times or any other newspaper correspondent without every actually setting foot in the US, let alone being a national of the US.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Have you removed any male journalists from Category:American journalists? Johnuniq (talk) 04:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- This whole question is based on a false premise that somehow being in Category:American journalists and not in some sub-category is some sort of badge of honor. It isn't, with 2 schemes in existence that should remove every single direct entry, and another scheme that should be able to remove most entries, it is a sign the article is under-categorized. If the answer is was no when you wrote it, it was mainly a reflection of the fact that some types of journalists (fashion journalists for example), have often just been classified as that, and not put in any by nationality categories for being journalists. On another note.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Have you removed any male journalists from Category:American journalists? Johnuniq (talk) 04:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- A few more thoughts. Only my recent work has gotten Category:American women journalists to be slightly larger than Category:American female pornographic film actors. According to some commentators the fact that the later is larger than any chosen other category is a scandal that indictes Wikipedia as a horribly sexist place, etc. The reality is that it more reflects different methods of categorizing by gender in different fields, than the prevalence of articles on females in different females, let alone the prevalence of females succeeding in that field. On another note, we have even Category:Pennsylvania political journalists, to show there are all sorts of levels of sub-categories to Category:American journalists.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Another example of multi-layers sub-cats is Category:American newspaper journalists has the sub-cat Category:American newspaper editors, which is further sub-catted into 19th-century and 20th-century sub-cats.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Johnpacklambert:
The number 1 program with categories is they are not effectively watchable with a watchlist.
I assume you meant "problem". No, the number one problem with categories is that they are divorced from the mainstream of the encyclopedia, and don't work. As an offshoot, they attract obsessive and less than wholesome edits from those who would like to use them for less than lovely reasons. See above for how this can be fixed. - Now, one thing I'm not clear on, Johnuniq asked
Have you removed any male journalists from Category:American journalists?
Was that a "No", amidst the rambling dissembling? It was a simple question, I thought. Begoon talk 14:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)- The actual answer to the question is yes, but it is a question that misses the real issues entirely.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. As Bearcat says above, then, I guess we need to find out from developers if there is some reason we need to keep this arcane, inconsistent, unscaleable "system", with all its attendant drawbacks and vagaries, or if we can indeed move towards a proper system of attributes and queries. Begoon talk 05:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- The actual answer to the question is yes, but it is a question that misses the real issues entirely.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Johnpacklambert:
Septate breaking his newly imposed editing restrictions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Septate (talk · contribs) is under a Community imposed editing restriction[1] placed indefinitely for all edits which are related to religion:
1) 1 revert per 48 hours per article (see WP:1RR for more information).
2) Before he makes any content revert (including vandalism), he is required to first open a discussion on the article talk page, to provide an explanation of his intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion.
Despite this he continues to revert at various articles dealing with the subject of
- That was so quick. I knew that he will break those restrictions, I agree that topic ban is probably going to help. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Dougweller. You are seriously wrong and mistaken. Regarding [5], I made that edit after a simple discussion. See User talk:Vanamonde93#Thanks!. The problem was regarding the reliability of Apologetics.com, which was resolved when I provided BBC source. Although I am obliged to open the discussion on talk page per imposed ban on me, I don't find it useful because the dispute was resolved. When it comes to [6], I don't know why you mentioned it here. It is completely irrelevant. I have made no reverts neither another user has reverted my edits calling them vandalism or something else. Interestingly the dispute was not between me but two other users. My edits just came in the middle of there reverts of each others edits. See edit history of Mawlid. The same goes with [7]. I have made a simple edit. If some one reverts my edit then I am obliged to open a discussion talk page. Seriously, this is complete wastage of time.Septate (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @
- Furthermore, if I break the rule, I would prefer to get blocked for 2 day or week instead of topic banned.Septate (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Septate: WTF? On Mawlid you reverted this edit by another user by making this edit. That's a revert of the change from Wahhabist to Salafist. Your restriction is crystal clear: "Before he makes any content revert (including vandalism), he is required to first open a discussion on the article talk page, to provide an explanation of his intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion." Also, on Al-Qaeda it is completely irrelevant that "Although I am obliged to open the discussion on talk page per imposed ban on me, I don't find it useful because the dispute was resolved". It's not you that gets to choose whether it's "useful" in any particular instance. On the ISIS article, I am puzzled by what Doug says there. Perhaps he could elaborate. But leaving that aside there are two clear breaches just a couple of days into the restriction - with justifications like you "didn't find it useful". It's definitely time for a topic ban. DeCausa (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I don't see how a discussion on a user talk page with an editor other than the one you reverted matters here. Furthermore, the discussion was about reliability of sourcing, yet User:Gazkthul's edit summary clearly indicated an objection based on POV issues NOT RS issues. If you had reverted User:Vanamonde93, based on the agreement to the edit, I can see us not acting to enforce the letter of the restriction, but that isn't who you reverted. There is no discussion on the article talk page, and you unambiguously reverted another editor. How is that not a violation of your editing restrictions? Monty845 14:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Dougweller: While I agree with you on the first article, with regard to Mawlid, is there a clear edit that was reverted? Given the restriction was specifically on reverts, if something was only added to an article, in the absence of a recent removal for it to be reverting, I don't think it is obvious that the addition counts as a revert. Monty84515:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Monty845: as I pointed out above, on Mawlid an editor changed Wahhabist to Salafist and two hours later Septate changed it back. That's a revert and he should have gone to the talk page and waited 6 hours before he did the revert. DeCausa (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that he broke his edit restriction. [[10] this edit by Septate] was a clear revert of this edit by Gazkthul. When the edit restriction was proposed, I explained to him at User talk:Septate#July 2014 that "If you broke the restriction you could be blocked for a week for breaking the restriction. And if you kept on breaking it, the blocks might get bigger. (e.g. 1st time 1 week, 2nd time 1 month, etc.)" I think that he should have a 1 week block, and be told that if he breaks the restriction again after the block, then he will get a 1 month block.--Toddy1 (talk) 07:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Topic ban proposal
(Outside opinion) I wasn't involved in the last discussion but followed it as is my wont. I believe this is just about the fastest I've ever seen anyone breach a community sanction and coupled with the attempt to wikilawyer around it, I'm going to boldly throw a proposal out there.
- Septate is hereby topic banned from all articles related to religion broadly construed for a period of no less than 6 months. Violations of the topic ban will be met with extension of the topic ban or escalating blocks.
Blackmane (talk) 15:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support. It's not only the rapid and blatant breach but also the bare-faced claims that he hasn't breached the restriction. He has a history of deceptive edit summaries to cover up his edits - which he's previously got a 48 hour block. His attitude here is consistent with that. DeCausa (talk) 15:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support I was considering just blocking for a month, and offering a topic ban as an unblock condition, but this is the cleaner way to do it. Not the standard construction of a topic ban, we usually go to a permanent ban, with the option to request it be removed in 6 months, but it may be interesting to see how this version works. Monty845 15:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support I agree this seems cleaner and going straight into a breach shows that the restrictions weren't sufficient. I'm pessimistic about it working though. talk) 15:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Forgot, we should let talk) 18:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Against . Everyone here is just trying to find 'loopholes' to get me topic banned. User:DeCausa read this this edit again. Are you blind or just acting? I just made Wahhabis an alternative name for Salafis! Does this constitute revert? I have not removed Salafis at all. Interestingly I changed the word Salafites to Salafis. I have wasted a lot of time here. I was informed on previous ANI that if I break the the ban in future, I shall be blocked for one week instead of being topic banned. You can't go against it! I am going on a wiki break for one month. This should be enough for me.Septate (talk) 15:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Septate: Drop the pretence. Rameshnta909 took out the word Wahhabis. You reinstated the word Wahhabis. Just because you added other things as well doesn't stop it being a revert. I don't think for one minute that you think that either - you just thought you could get away with it. You also thought that if you get caught you could get off with a block for a few days. that's why you thought it was worth trying it. Well, no. DeCausa (talk) 15:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Septate, you joined wikipedia in Feb 2014, you have over 1700 edits but you have never contributed even 100 words to any article because all you do is flip and switch words in religion articles. How you managed it? Bladesmulti (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Septate: Drop the pretence. Rameshnta909 took out the word Wahhabis. You reinstated the word Wahhabis. Just because you added other things as well doesn't stop it being a revert. I don't think for one minute that you think that either - you just thought you could get away with it. You also thought that if you get caught you could get off with a block for a few days. that's why you thought it was worth trying it. Well, no. DeCausa (talk) 15:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support The wikilawyering pushed me off the fence. Septate, you were plainly warned "you may be blocked to enforce them or further restricted (such as a ban) by the community." If the topic ban is enacted, it should state what will happen after 6 months. --NeilN talk to me 15:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Ahhhhhh your explanations! DeCausa, Rameshnta909 removed Wahhabia because he thought that Salafis are more appropriate. Then I came and added Wahhabis along with Salafis because I thought that both are appropriate. Don't you get such a simple thing. This clearly shows that you are just trying to find loopholes!
Dear NielN, seriously speeking I was not conscious of those edits. I am not doubting the wisdom of the ban. I was not aware that so many users were waiting to see just a single little mistake. I just want to get last chance. Block me for one week. Furthermore I am going on a wiki break for one month. Septate (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Septate is going to separate from wikipedia? No issue. Little mistake and last chance? You said that dougweller is wasting time when it was proven that you are breaking editing restrictions. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Septate, if you think that's a "loop-hole" there's no hope of getting you to comply with the restriction. DeCausa (talk) 18:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Septate:, when a proposal calling for a topic ban is started you have already lost all room for negotiation. When any editor is sanctioned, there will be many eyes watching. Recalcitrance is punished quickly, acquiescence to the will of the community results in relaxation of sanctions in time. You were sanctioned, you violated the sanctions thus your restrictions will be escalated. I proposed 6 months in the hope that at the end of it you can return to editing in that area after some reflection. You're a relatively new user and I've got enough AGF left after reading through this thread and the previous one that I didn't go for the indefinite topic ban. You should see this as a wake up call. If you go on one month now, then I would propose an amendment to to the topic ban proposal to come into force upon your return. Blackmane (talk) 01:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support. The rapid breach of the restrictions shows that a topic ban from all articles related to religion is needed. I share ) 16:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support I've never seen this editor before, but the above evidence is unacceptable behaviour. Indeed, lest they get some idea of DIVA'ing, if they perform any additional reverts between now and when this discussion is closed, I'll block the panda ₯’ 16:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support Given the continued disruptive nature of the edits within the subject area. A topic ban seems more than warranted, especially given the flaunting of earlier restrictions placed. ♥ Solarra ♥ ♪ 話 ♪ ߷ ♀ 投稿 ♀ 17:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support -The violations of the ban are obvious and the Wikilawyering is clear. BMK (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Every case is different, but the usual response to violating a topic ban is accelerating blocks. If there are multiple incidents, especially after being warned, then a lengthy block is in order, not just a broadened topic ban. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:24, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs It was proposed that Septate should be topic banned hardly 1 week ago. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive848#Proposal for a topic ban on Septate. It was not fixed that he should be blocked or topic banned for violating restrictions, it could be any. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support Per BMK and Solarra. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 21:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support. Septate, you had De Causa's and my support for restrictions at the previous ANI despite all indications that you'd been interacting in bad faith. Given that you've violated the terms in such blatant manner within days of agreeing to them, a six month block is warranted. As I've recommended to you personally, and per my recommendation at the last ANI, this is a good opportunity for you to work on articles you don't have an emotional attachment to, thus giving you a chance to understand policies and guidelines and learn to be a constructive contributor. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - he should get a 1 week block. Septate was told when the edit restriction was proposed that if he broke the restriction, he would get a 1 week block first time, and probably a 1 month block second time, etc.[11] As this is the first time, he should get a 1 week block. This is only fair. It will also teach him to respect the restriction. This will be more effective than a topic ban. It will encourage good behaviours by Septate, and will not encourage bad behaviors.--Toddy1 (talk) 07:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- With all respect, Toddy1, that was a statement made by you alone on his talk page. It wasn't part of the community view as expressed at the ANI thread. I can understand that, as a result, you personally might feel constrained as to how you would !vote in this thread, but it can't have a broader effect. Nevertheless, I agree that what you said would be the "normal" way to proceed. However, the speed of Septate's breach and his attitude to complying with the restriction as shown in this thread takes him out of "normal", IMO. More generally, having seen how he operates over the last few months, I suspect that him believing that there was a limited "first offence" sanction led him to think that it was worth "trying his luck" (2 days in!) to see what wriggle room there is in the restriction. I think rewarding that behaviour with a limited sanction will not be good for WP or Septate. The best hope for him to become a long-term useful editor (which I actually think he could easily be) is for him to understand that it's not worth his while trying to pull these stunts - he will be caught out. DeCausa (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. And give someone a one week block who says he's taking a month off of Wikipedia? talk) 08:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Time to close? talk) 07:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Time to close?
- Agreed. And give someone a one week block who says he's taking a month off of Wikipedia?
- @Dougweller and Toddy1. Please tell me what is the overall outcome of this talk? For how long you are blocking me? Seriously I am extremely tired and exhausted. DeCausa please stop calling my edits stunts. I dont know why you hate me so much. In the past few days I have realized that reading wikipedia is more enjoyable then editing it. I have been using opera mini instead of chrome in order to stop getting notifications. I am not going on a wiki break because wikipedia is an integral part of my life and I love it.Septate (talk) 12:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- interaction ban at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, gossiping is not going to help. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Septate, if you believe that I hate you, make a complaint at ) 18:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- With all respect, Toddy1, that was a statement made by you alone on his talk page. It wasn't part of the community view as expressed at the ANI thread. I can understand that, as a result, you personally might feel constrained as to how you would !vote in this thread, but it can't have a broader effect. Nevertheless, I agree that what you said would be the "normal" way to proceed. However, the speed of Septate's breach and his attitude to complying with the restriction as shown in this thread takes him out of "normal", IMO. More generally, having seen how he operates over the last few months, I suspect that him believing that there was a limited "first offence" sanction led him to think that it was worth "trying his luck" (2 days in!) to see what wriggle room there is in the restriction. I think rewarding that behaviour with a limited sanction will not be good for WP or Septate. The best hope for him to become a long-term useful editor (which I actually think he could easily be) is for him to understand that it's not worth his while trying to pull these stunts - he will be caught out. DeCausa (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Toddy1, it was not meant for you! You have misunderstood it. How can I accuse you hating me?Septate (talk) 06:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Septate, to reiterate, this would be a topic ban which would not prevent you from contributing to non-related articles. I've suggested it to you, Bladesmulti has suggested it to you: why not take the opportunity to broaden your scope of interest and involve yourself with subjects that interest you, but without the emotional ties you have to religion? It doesn't need to be taken as a punitive measure, but as learning curve in order to improve your skills as a dedicated Wikipedian. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
RFC needs your input
I realize this isn't the place to post RFC's normally, however, I'm requesting experienced users input (at the moment ) for an RFC over here . I've already posted this same request on the three projects that cover this page, the village pump and the non-free image board and received no new responses. I'm looking to establish consensus on whether or not a second image ( this one * MAY BE NSWF * ) fails NFCC 3, 5 and 8. Whatever the consensus is, it's fine, however, at this time, there's not a consensus to speak of. Your input is appreciated. Kosh Vorlon 11:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I really don't think this is an appropriate place to advertise this RFC. I'm guessing that you're not getting comments on it because it's not formatted as an RFC and it's hard to parse what's going on. As I suggested over there, I think you should start a new RFC formatted as an RfC is supposed to be formatted, with a simple neutral statement. Perhaps you'll get more interest then. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 13:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- This still? Chillum16:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- This still?
- Because there's no consensus on whether the image fails NFCC 3,5 and 8. There's TonyTheTiger (the article's creator) yourself and I, and that doesn't make for any consensus. I still believe using that image fails nfcc 3,5 and 8. I closed the original RFC as two individuals have advised me it's malformed and not neutral and have re-create it to be compliant. I'm looking for a consensus only, doesn't matter if it's for or against me. Kosh Vorlon 16:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Funny how when I agreed with you on this matter you said there was a 2:1 consensus, and now that I think it is up to our NFCC you are saying 2:1 does not make a consensus. I agree that 3 people don't make a consensus in either case. Chillum21:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Funny how when I agreed with you on this matter you said there was a 2:1 consensus, and now that I think it is up to our NFCC you are saying 2:1 does not make a consensus. I agree that 3 people don't make a consensus in either case.
- That not just me saying that, I've seen caes in the past where 2 to 1 was not considered consensus. Also remember, since I'm involved (and I've said this on your talk page ) I can't declare any kind of official consensus, I can only state what the consensus of opinion is. I'm looking for a few more voices, that's all. Kosh Vorlon 10:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Legal threat at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T.R. Threston
AustralianThreston (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is threatening action for slander/libel here. Also please note the open SPI investigation on this user. Thank you. --Finngall talk 21:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
FUCK OFF! I deleted the entire page. As I have repeatedly said I AM NOT T.R. Threston but if any of the slanderous things written by the staff on Wikipedia remain, I'm sure a law suit will not be far behind. And people wonder why Wikipedia isn't allowed as a reliable reference for REAL research. I certainly know why now!! --AustralianThreston (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Blocked for legal threats by
- @AustralianThreston: You're not allowed to make legal threats here per 22:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Is WJRockford (talk · contribs) a sock, or is that user's single-purpose interest just an unhappy coincidence? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:48, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Probable sock. See the SPI link above. --Finngall talk 22:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Holy moly, what a crop. A classic case of trying to abuse Wikipedia to gain artificial notability. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Close review: Conduct unbecoming of an administrator
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am opening this closure review of the ANI discussion
- Support - Reopen
- As nom. Let the people speak. - MrX 03:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is exactly why we can't have nice things. It is impossible to address systemic issues when we handle them in this manner, where initial discussion is loudly disrupted by a few drama mongers, then the discussion is relatively quickly closed under the rationale that there's "too much drama", so thoughtful editors are unable to steer the discussion in a productive direction because it was closed before they even noticed it. (Also, it was very inappropriate for an involved admin to re-close the discussion. If there's anywhere you can find an uninvolved admin, it's here, so there is absolutely no reason not to leave it to one of them.) Gamaliel (talk) 03:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support as stated. It's clear some users want to continue the conversation. Whether or not we continue it here shouldn't be subject to a majority vote. There are clearly some longstanding issues at hand and these need to be dealt with. If we sweep this under the carpet, again, no problem will be solved. The conversation should continue as long as several users are contributing. This is also unfair to users who did not contribute in the first 36 hours, particularly as this issue is likely to surface again and again and this conversation will be used as precedent in some future date. The users who are not interested shouldn't have the right to gag the users who want to continue participating. 101.116.116.59 (talk) 03:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC) — 101.116.116.59 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Re-open. For better or for worse...this is what this noticeboard is for and no one is immune. The community seems to be getting shut out of this and that is rather disturbing. It appears the community can very much make these determinations and this is likely to come to some determination.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)- Re-open - There was obvious momentum towards a community consensus on a block of editor Eric Corbett by admin BrownHairedGirl, with six editors in succession, in a space of just a few hours, !voting to support a Good block, bad unblock position that by extension condemns the unblock by admin Dangerous Panda. The sudden closure of the above ANI discussion by admin TParis gives the appearance of an attempt to derail that seemingly emerging community consensus. This goes to the very heart of rank-and-file editor complaints of autocratic administrator abuse. When you add in the fact that an active discussion was in progress, of a high-profile request by Jimmy Wales on Dangerous Panda's talk page to reconsider the unblock, you get a situation that calls for a review of Admin TParis' actions across the board. Many of us feel there is a cancer on Wikipedia. Closures like this one are why. Opposes below that attempt to dismiss the gravity of this matter are deeply unconvincing. Jusdafax 05:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Jusdafax I understand this is an emotional issue, but you cite the "growing consensus" for "Good block, bad unblock". Would you please have a look at the last three !votes above the subsection "Where do we draw the line between incivility and personal insults?" ? Each of them, including Mark Miller's, who is also here saying "re-open", didn't understand what happened - who did the unblock and/or what BHG's block of Eric was for. (It was not for 3RR, it was for a PA on Jimmy's page, in an edit note.) So how would those three !votes even factor into anyone's consideration of whether the unblock was appropriate? (real question, not rhetorical) Too much emotion and confusion all around, I think. I also want to say that TP closed because the discussion was unfocused and confused. So... a real question for you - for those who are still upset about any matter that arose from that teratoma of a discussion that TP closed -- is there that something that would prevent generating new discussions in appropriate venues, focused separately on any one of: review of BHG's judgement in blocking, review of Panda's judgement in unblocking, review of TP's judgement in closing (as opposed to reversing the close itself), review of Dennis Brown's judgement for the OP, an RfC/U on Eric, or any other matter? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
First of all, you got it wrong in regards to me.I knew who made the unblock and I also knew that the ANI was about multiple issues. I also know it wasn't Dennis Brown that made the unblock. That is why I said to leave him alone. I also knew that Eric was blocked over a different issue and if you look at the last reply on the 3RR report you will see that I make the comment to block...for that issue ONLY. Then that 3RR was closed as stale within minutes of my comment.- To answer your question: "is there that something that would prevent generating new discussions in appropriate venues"...that would be because all the venues are being closed. But I am not that concerned if the outcome is to remain closed. At least it was asked in the proper manner--Mark Miller (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering Mark! On the first thing, I just double checked (and had double checked before I saved my edit). you wrote "Good block, bad unblock. This has nothing to do with Dennis. I think Eric deserved this 3RR block. I saw it pop up, I looked and the report was valid. Eric is about the last editor to be "roped into a revert" he knew very well what he was doing.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)" So... 3RR. not PA. I don't understand. Also,you didn't answer the question, if anything prevents new discussions from being opened. You don't have to answer, of course. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nope, you are right. I actually remember that very well now and did indeed believe (at that time) that the block was the 3RR violation. I have no excuse. You made a truly good call and I was wrong there. But I did answer the question. Although it should state that because all of the other venues were being closed I am guessing any new one would be as well.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering Mark! On the first thing, I just double checked (and had double checked before I saved my edit). you wrote "Good block, bad unblock. This has nothing to do with Dennis. I think Eric deserved this 3RR block. I saw it pop up, I looked and the report was valid. Eric is about the last editor to be "roped into a revert" he knew very well what he was doing.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)" So... 3RR. not PA. I don't understand. Also,you didn't answer the question, if anything prevents new discussions from being opened. You don't have to answer, of course. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Jusdafax I understand this is an emotional issue, but you cite the "growing consensus" for "Good block, bad unblock". Would you please have a look at the last three !votes above the subsection "Where do we draw the line between incivility and personal insults?" ? Each of them, including Mark Miller's, who is also here saying "re-open", didn't understand what happened - who did the unblock and/or what BHG's block of Eric was for. (It was not for 3RR, it was for a PA on Jimmy's page, in an edit note.) So how would those three !votes even factor into anyone's consideration of whether the unblock was appropriate? (real question, not rhetorical) Too much emotion and confusion all around, I think. I also want to say that TP closed because the discussion was unfocused and confused. So... a real question for you - for those who are still upset about any matter that arose from that teratoma of a discussion that TP closed -- is there that something that would prevent generating new discussions in appropriate venues, focused separately on any one of: review of BHG's judgement in blocking, review of Panda's judgement in unblocking, review of TP's judgement in closing (as opposed to reversing the close itself), review of Dennis Brown's judgement for the OP, an RfC/U on Eric, or any other matter? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Re-open: The appearance of bias and manipulation is too great to ignore. The discussion was ongoing, Jimbo encouraged just such discussion, and another of Eric's sizable, ) 08:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Re-open per Jimbo Wales: "I'd like to invite kind and reasoned discussion based on the fundamental premise that we do have a problem, and that some people should be banned for it." -A1candidate (talk) 16:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support. This is a problem. Lightbreather (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen - This is a conversation that needs input and consensus. We can't keep on saying it's okay to attack other editors and get away with it, because we think it's too hard to find a solution. The gender imbalance thing is something that concerns me greatly. Are we becoming a monstrous community where women are not welcome unless they fart and curse along with the lads? A bit of scuffle and stoush is fine so long as we keep on cranking out articles on obscure border wars and loud cars and porn stars? --Pete (talk) 02:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- It looks like something will actually come of discussion. Chillum03:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - Remain closed
- As I believed when I closed it the first time, nothing productive is going to come from the discussion. Editors are just getting more and more worked up, and its very unlikely enough consensus to do anything will arise. (One of the points was that there was movement towards consensus on the block/unblock question, but they are supporting a block for a reason other than the one that triggered the block, which just doesn't make sense in a block review) Rather than continue to get madder at each other, this should remain closed, and we should just wait for someone to take it to 03:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, because this is supposed to be an online encyclopaedia, and this endless exercise in drama-mongering has nothing to do with improving article content... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose- the entire thing was an unproductive dramalanche, never had the remotest possibility of solving any actual problem, and should remain closed. Reyk YO! 03:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm watching (on TV) a bunch of Nubian ibexes fight. It's the mating season in the desert, you know. If they lose a fight, they may never mate. We're not Nubian ibexes. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose— Those who are interested can have a far more productive conversation at arbcom. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 03:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I don't know. Seems that we're getting a lot of views out in the open here. Let's not inflict unformed discussion on ArbCom. Let's see what emerges here and give them a fair chance at ruling on something structured. There's enough clever and experienced Wikipedians here to generate something worth pushing forward. --Pete (talk) 02:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - as this is ANI. It is not an RFC, a usertalkpage or arbcom. The "incidents" in this thread (Dennis v Scottywong, and EricCorbett's block) are not likely to lead to future admin action. The discussion of various people's conduct, or the ongoing debate over civility enforcement, may be worthwhile ongoing topics but they belong on the pages designed for them. Euryalus (talk) 04:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose reopening the ANI thread and support bringing this debacle to ArbCom. This is the fourth time in little over a year that Eric Corbett has been blocked and subsequently unblocked, and the nth time I have seen calls for desysopping admins involved in it. This was a common pattern on the previous account as well. A binding resolution on this is overdue, and I can't see that coming from AN/I. Sjakkalle (Check!) 05:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose reopening. ArbCom is thattaway -----> /// Carrite (talk) 05:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Scottywong's unbecoming use of casuistry is adequately documented in the user's own contributions to the discussion as it stands—an instructive outcome. As for what triggered the expressions of outrage that in turn spawned this and all the other Eric-centric drama, the real toxicity in the editing/discussion environment comes not from the straight talker but from the milquetoast, the prig, the liar, the officious little twerp, and the pompous ass. In the words of Hell In a Bucket, "Pull up your big boy pants or panties . . . and move the fuck on." Writegeist (talk) 06:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose reopening, as per all those above me — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, everyone's time would be better spent actually editing articles instead of watching personal vendettas being played out. SagaciousPhil - Chat08:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per Writegeist. Nicely said. --John (talk) 08:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per Carrite, or as one of my local judges supposedly stated, "the road to Richmond (where the appeal courts sit) runs right outside the courthouse." I am sure ArbCom will welcome having this case. Someone remind me of how many arbs have resigned or been defeated over previous Eric/Malleus cases, I've lost track.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Cut the drama and get back to creating an encyclopaedia, that's what we're here for. Thomas.W talk 09:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Good gods, people. Encyclopedia. Remember? That's what we're working on... not a social utopia. Go write, not run with the drama llamas. (No insult intended to any llamas...) Ealdgyth - Talk 12:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - The discussion was quickly devolving into ad hominem, even about irrelevant tangents. Arbcom was suggested multiple times both there and here, and, given the behavior and remarks of some of those involved, that seems like the best choice now. I mean, because, obviously they can't interact civilly here at ANI. moluɐɯ 12:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is clearly not going to lead to intervention regarding Scotty Wong, Dennis Brown, Dangerous Panda or Eric Corbett, or to making a major change in the editing environment. Anyone who wishes to achieve any of those things is going to have to find another way, because this maelstrom is impassable and pouring more energy into it will just make it wider. NebY (talk) 12:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - With all respect it's gone on for long enough - Reopening won't solve anything. –Davey2010 • (talk) 13:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - everyone knows that anything to do with EC is basically kryptonite. Let's put it back in Pandora's box and move on, at least until the next poor soul opens it. Blackmane (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - this is a remarkably dull thread; once one could rely on Corbett for fireworks but this is the merest squib. Oculi (talk) 21:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose -the thread was a mess, and folks (as I understand it) are free to open new discussions on any specific matters they still have concerns about it. Hopefully, well focused discussions.Jytdog (talk) 00:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Scottywong got his money's worth of drama by stirring the pot. Keeping it close is the best possible outcome at this point. OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - No good will come of this. WP:PERENNIAL. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - messy walls of text will not result in anything apart from being disruptive in and of itself. Per ) 04:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Alternate option
I'm not opposed to discussion. I close the thread because it lacked direction and progress. As Gamaliel says, reasonable editors should be able to address systematic issues without drama mongering and I agree. Address systematic issues - systematically. Address them with structure, guidelines, and direction. That thread, and ANI in general, are not the place to do it. Besides lacking structure, ANI attracts those who like to treat Wikipedia like a mid-day drama tv show. Please please feel free to discuss any issues you want to. It is far from my intentions to chill discussion. But do it in a way that does more good than harm.--v/r - TP 04:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It isn't your fault TP. Seriously. A number of us have closed the discussion, me included. But I did so because there were other venues...then suddenly all those venues were shut down but Jimbo's talk page discussion. That will remain open and I am sure if the outcome here is no consensus or to keep closed...the sky will not fall and Wikipedia will survive.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is there any point in discussing "Eric Corbett" (the quotes meaning not just the user but the topic that swirls around him) in any venue? The community and ArbCom have shown itself/themselves consistently incapable of definitively resolving it one way or the other. It's just too polarizing. BrownHairedGirl on Jimbo's talk page, on the linkage of civility and the so-called "gender gap" proposed that WMF intervene to put in place standards rather as they did with BLP. I don't think I agree with that. But given (a) the nature of the disruption of this civil war and (b) the WP community's clear incapability of reaching anything approaching consensus (c) ArbCom having previously not been able to provide a final resolution, is the only hope of a long-term resolution to ask Mama WMF to rescue us from ourselves and impose something (one way or the other)? Jimbo on his talk page seems to have taken up the idea of WMF staff monitoring civility generally. But, IMHO, it would be preferable for it to be just a one-off solution: I don't see any other issue around with quite the same characteristics as this one. DeCausa (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to proposing having WMF ban Eric when you say "one-off solution". In what way does that advance us towards having a quality encyclopedia which I understand is the point of this exercise? And is it really worth tearing down the community structure we have so painstakingly built to get to Eric?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't suggested that at all. Why do you say that? A one off solution imposed on the community could be anything, including (off the top of my head) no admins allowed to block him, maybe only WMF staffers? I'm actually fairly on the fence about EC generally: I can see both sides. My point is how does seeing dozens of the most prominent users tear this place apart for days at a time every now and then "advance us towards having a quality encyclopedia". Take it out of our hands; we're not grown up enough for it. (And btw, this particular part of the "community structure we have so painstakingly constructed" is an enormous pile of crap that needs to be torn down.) DeCausa (talk) 09:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to proposing having WMF ban Eric when you say "one-off solution". In what way does that advance us towards having a quality encyclopedia which I understand is the point of this exercise? And is it really worth tearing down the community structure we have so painstakingly built to get to Eric?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is there any point in discussing "Eric Corbett" (the quotes meaning not just the user but the topic that swirls around him) in any venue? The community and ArbCom have shown itself/themselves consistently incapable of definitively resolving it one way or the other. It's just too polarizing. BrownHairedGirl on Jimbo's talk page, on the linkage of civility and the so-called "gender gap" proposed that WMF intervene to put in place standards rather as they did with BLP. I don't think I agree with that. But given (a) the nature of the disruption of this civil war and (b) the WP community's clear incapability of reaching anything approaching consensus (c) ArbCom having previously not been able to provide a final resolution, is the only hope of a long-term resolution to ask Mama WMF to rescue us from ourselves and impose something (one way or the other)? Jimbo on his talk page seems to have taken up the idea of WMF staff monitoring civility generally. But, IMHO, it would be preferable for it to be just a one-off solution: I don't see any other issue around with quite the same characteristics as this one. DeCausa (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
When *this one* gets closed "prematurely", can we have another section where we discuss re-opening it? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the old "close review review", which is just lawyer talk for "I didn't get my way and won't shut up about it". Reyk YO! 12:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- TP, I think you were completely justified in your closure. I might even go far as to suggest renaming that section to "Conduct unbecoming of multiple admins". moluɐɯ 12:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I for one agree with TParis's closure and there closure comment which was completely justified and clearly needed. –Davey2010 • (talk) 18:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously I disagreed with the closure and reverted it, but TP was right at the time..that there were other venues that this could be discussed at. So, at his good faith request to self revert...I did. Then, when I went to check out the other venues they were closed..accept for 3RR...until I commented that editor in question should receive the block for that violation and then it was immediately closed as being stale. That is why I support the re-opening.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Should we transfer all of the !votes from the sub-thread More to the above (without doubling !votes of course)? Then again...I would hope we are counting them towards consensus even without moving them.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Pretty sure this has other venues discussing this now. At this point I formally retract my support to re-open.--Mark Miller (talk) 12:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Inappropriate tagging; edit warring; uncivil behavior
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On July 26, 2014, I started an article about the Broadway theatrical producer and entertainer Frankie Grande.
- On the same day, WP:AfD, and the AfD is ongoing here.
- Later that day, JHUbal27 tagged the article with a redundant "Notablility" tag and also a "BLP sources" tag, even though the article was thoroughly sourced. After working on the article further, I removed these tags on July 28.
- On July 28, JHUbal27 tagged the article with a "third party sources" tag, which is discussed on the article's talk page. Another editor removed the tag.
- On July 30, JHUbal27 tagged the article with the "Unreliable sources" tag, which I have removed.
The article is thoroughly referenced. It has 25 footnotes, some of which have more than one ref in them. Most of the references are to national newspapers and magazines, or other recognized sources, as discussed on the Talk page and on the AFD. A few of them are based on non-controversial
- I have left some thoughts on the editor's talkpage, prior to the latest round of tagging. At this point I have to agree that this editor should be asked to step away from this article. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, I will not edit article anymore until the AfD discussion is closed. It's just that simple. I cannot believe you went so far as to start a 21:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The WP:ANI is totally called for. When I warned you that you were edit-warring and suggested you take any issues you had to the Talk Page you reverted the edit again and wrote "You take it to the Talk Page" (see here [12]). In my opinion you have been editing and tagging in an aggressive manner while lecturing very experienced editors like Ssilvers and others on how things are done on Wikipedia. Jack1956 (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The
- Okay, I will not edit article anymore until the AfD discussion is closed. It's just that simple. I cannot believe you went so far as to start a 21:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I am disappointed to note that the same editor has re-added a manifestly inapplicable tag to the same article, after having promised above to stop for awhile. Perhaps someone else could counsel him to desist, as I have plainly been ineffective. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Update
JHUbal27 just restored a "conflict of interest" tag on Frankie Grande for absolutely no apparent reason. I've removed it again and asked him for an explanation as this conduct is not acceptable. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- An IP deleted the article and redirected the Frankie Grande article. Can an admin investigate, please? [13] . I have reverted twice. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- It has been deleted and redirected again. Can an admin help, please? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, but I've got my eye on it as well. Quite a persistent little bugger isn't he.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 00:06, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- It has been deleted and redirected again. Can an admin help, please? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- JHUbal27 has acknowledged here [14] the use of two sockpuppets (User talk:66.87.87.208 and User talk:209.150.98.119) to further revert/vandalise the article and used one of them to add this offensive message [15] to my Talk Page. Jack1956 (talk) 00:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Eight reverts in the past hour. Can someone block/fullprotect? --Carnildo (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- (ec)By my count, he's at 8RR and still willing to edit war, I'm at 2RR and I'm not. He is obviously going to be blocked and the article will return.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 00:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- JHUbal27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- User:JHUbal27 has continued to revert on August 1, so they are now blocked 48 hours per a 3RR complaint (permalink). Another admin has semiprotected Frankie Grande to stop the possible sock IPs. EdJohnston (talk) 01:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- (ec)By my count, he's at 8RR and still willing to edit war, I'm at 2RR and I'm not. He is obviously going to be blocked and the article will return.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 00:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Anon on a category and simple fact deletion rampage
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
89.139.184.192 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log) is removing material at a fast rate in numerous articles, mostly related to sadism/fascism/bondage in books and fiction. It began with questionable category deletion, borderline vandalism. When I reverted them, he restored them with mostly lame explanations in his edit summary. Since then, he's been deleting more things, obviously incorrect, like removing several famous works from Sadism and masochism in fiction [16]. Anyone want to deal with this? A brand-new IP, he seems to know exactly what he's doing, perhaps a banned user. Choor monster (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like the equivalent of a genre warrior for literature. Several of the works were by the Marquis de Sade, from which he's removed from BDSM categories. I don't know enough about the works to know whether these are good edits. I'm not sure why no warnings were issued to the IP. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 15:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Initially I didn't, since they were borderline vandalism. Then I noticed he kept going, so I think it's a little out of hand. Anyway, all the works of the Marquis de Sade, and American Psycho and Gravity's Rainbow definitely belong there. Choor monster (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I did not intend any of the edits as vandalism nor am I a banned user evading the ban. In fact, I am mostly deleting edits I have myself made in the past but am now seeing as erroneous. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 15:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Assuming that includes your removal of Category:BDSM literature from Gravity's Rainbow, you made this edit [17], and are thus a sockpuppet of banned sockpuppet 109.186.234.86 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Certainly your use of Edit Summary for discussion purposes appears identical. Choor monster (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I was indeed banned once but I believe that this ban has long ago since been revoked due to the passage of time. Also, as my computer changes IPs from time to time without me asking and without my control (this is rather common I believe), I am not a sockpuppet. Anyway, take it easy. I am not here to pick up a fight. You can retain those categories if you wish so with such vehemence. I simply believe I have read somewhere that editors have a right to delete everything that they have ever wrote. I may be wrong. But, yes, that includes the edit you mentioned. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 15:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, you're wrong. Once you press SAVE you no longer own the text or whatever that you have contributed. Thomas.W talk 15:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I believe what I read was that [r]everting your own actions ("self-reverting") is counted among actions [that] are not counted as reverts for the purposes of 3RR over at WP:RV and may have overgeneralized from here. Again, no malice whatsoever intended. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- That 3RR-exception has nothing whatsoever to do with what you wrote about "editors having a right to delete everything they have ever written". Thomas.W talk16:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, a little misundestanding and nothing more. There really is no reason to get worked up. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not getting worked up. I'm just telling you that you're wrong, and why you're wrong. Just friendly information from a fellow editor. Thomas.W talk 16:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I understand perfectly now and I am promising that I will not do so again. Now, I am not getting banned, am I? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not getting worked up. I'm just telling you that you're wrong, and why you're wrong. Just friendly information from a fellow editor. Thomas.W talk 16:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, a little misundestanding and nothing more. There really is no reason to get worked up. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- That
- Well, I believe what I read was that [r]everting your own actions ("self-reverting") is counted among actions [that] are not counted as reverts for the purposes of 3RR over at
- The IP address 89.139.184.192 is not banned as such. If the user wants to get un-banned, he should convey his personal information (specificially, his former user ID or IDs) to a trusted admin and see how or if he can get reinstated. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- As my computer changes IPs from time to time without me asking and without my control (this is rather common I believe), the IP under which I was previously blocked for a limited amount of time is both irrelevant (being inactive and irretrievable) now and, regardless, the block was long ago since then revoked. What I am interested in is knowing I will not be blocked again for this misunderstanding. It would be nice if someone could help me at [18]. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Were you banned or blocked? They are not the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It was temporary, for a month or so I think. This means blocked rather than banned, right? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)@Baseball Bugs: The block log above indicates that there were 3 blocks, the most recent of which being in August 2013 for a duration of 1 month for edit warring. I don't think any circumvention or sockpuppetry is taking place, based only on this thread. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 17:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- So, would it be possible for you to help me not get blocked again over at the aforementioned link? Thanks. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment)@Baseball Bugs: The block log above indicates that there were 3 blocks, the most recent of which being in August 2013 for a duration of 1 month for edit warring. I don't think any circumvention or sockpuppetry is taking place, based only on this thread. 0x0077BE [talk/contrib] 17:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It was temporary, for a month or so I think. This means blocked rather than banned, right? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Were you banned or blocked? They are not the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- As my computer changes IPs from time to time without me asking and without my control (this is rather common I believe), the IP under which I was previously blocked for a limited amount of time is both irrelevant (being inactive and irretrievable) now and, regardless, the block was long ago since then revoked. What I am interested in is knowing I will not be blocked again for this misunderstanding. It would be nice if someone could help me at [18]. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 16:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The IP address 89.139.184.192 is not banned as such. If the user wants to get un-banned, he should convey his personal information (specificially, his former user ID or IDs) to a trusted admin and see how or if he can get reinstated. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Again, I wasn't trying to vandalize, it was all a misunderstanding. By the way, they won't attempt to block my previous IP or something, right? It's completely inactive. 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Inactive IPs are (almost) never blocked, so you should be good. (FWIW, this is because blocks are to prevent further damage and if nothing else is being done, there's nothing to prevent.) —Thoms17:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Would it be possible for you to help me avoid being blocked again in that aforementioned link? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Unless I'm misreading something, it doesn't look like anyone is trying to block you.Didn't see that link You explained everything here, the SPI links here, it looks to me like you'll be fine.—Thoms18:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)- Thanks. Could you kindly write an opposing position there? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Already done. You'll be fine.—Thoms18:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again! 89.139.184.192 (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Already done. You'll be fine.—
- Thanks. Would it be possible for you to help me avoid being blocked again in that aforementioned link? 89.139.184.192 (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Inactive IPs are (almost) never blocked, so you should be good. (FWIW, this is because blocks are to prevent further damage and if nothing else is being done, there's nothing to prevent.) —
- Meanwhile, 89.139.184.192 is continuing to damage articles, inexplicably removing the mention of Crime novels and Category:World War II novels from Gravity's Rainbow and so on. (His statement above that he was merely removing edits he had made before is simply untrue, he was also removing other information.) Choor monster (talk) 20:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Update: User is now actively cooperative, so I believe there's nothing worth talking about anymore. Choor monster (talk) 22:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Would it be possible for someone to kindly close down now this discussion? Thanks! 89.139.184.192 (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Disruption on AfD and the article that is up for AfD
Jose Cuello (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is disrupting both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miss Multiverse (2nd nomination) and the article in question, Miss Multiverse (one of a number of articles about a minor beauty pageant that have been repeatedly created, and equally repeatedly deleted), posting walls of text and various accusations against other editors on the AfD and repeatedly both adding non-applicable templates and blanking the article. So could we perhaps have a block, to prevent further disruption, on Jose Cuello for the duration of the AfD? Thomas.W talk 09:45, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Or just collapse the walls of text beyond an initial !vote. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 10:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Seriously, how about mentioning your rude comments why is that not addressed here? or is that what you wish to have collapsed and removed, Some administrators should remember what it was like when they where new and also know that just because some one is new does not mean he will not eventually master the use of wikipedia Jose Cuello (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Rude comments? What rude comments? Everyone has shown remarkable restraint, considering both the disruption on the AfD and the repeated blanking of the article... Thomas.W talk 18:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruptive editing at Air Algérie
- RPP has been declined ([19]). Anyone here?--Jetstreamer Talk 19:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have left a note on 186s talk page to explain that making unexplained changes could be seen as disruptive and encouraged them to use the talk page, we just need to wait and see how the IP responds. MilborneOne (talk) 20:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could do with a talk page block and some rev-dels. Abusing talk page after a block for
- Monty has blocked him and I've rev del'd the rest.--v/r - TP 17:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- They now appear to be going through the talk pages of previously blocked socks that have not had talk page access revoked and spamming abuse. Monty845 17:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Logged in then back out appears to be one if not spotted already. Amortias (T)(C) 18:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- These are User:Evlekis. All socks now reblocked with talk page access blocked. Please block talk page access for future Evlekis socks. Thanks, NawlinWiki (talk) 19:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Sockpuppet vandalism of candle
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Set this up for archiving. ♥ Solarra ♥ • T ♀ C 02:50, 2 August 2014 (UTC) Over the last couple of days there has been repeated vandalism to candle by a number of editors whom I suspect are the same person. All the names have the form The***nerd where the *** is variously "leader", "sky", "underground" or "floor". Generally there are just two contributions listed, both to candle, changing some aspect of it to food. A couple of the puppet names have been warned but the putative vandal just changes name. Could an administrator investigate please? Thanks, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Martin, sure, I'll have a look. Just so you know, request for sockpuppetry investigations normally are done at WP:Sockpuppet Investigations. PhilKnight (talk) 09:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ta, WP:AIV didn't seem right. I'll note the link in case it's needed again. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've blocked the following accounts: Thefloornerd (talk · contribs), Theskynerd (talk · contribs), Theundergroundnerd (talk · contribs), Thecorenerd (talk · contribs), Thespacenerd (talk · contribs), and Theleadernerd (talk · contribs). Also blocked is Dfvdfvb (talk · contribs) who has a different type of name, but who's edits otherwise fit the pattern. PhilKnight (talk) 09:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ta, WP:AIV didn't seem right. I'll note the link in case it's needed again. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Please block my IP range for 24 hours
Not really willing to go into why, but please block my ip range for 24 hours. It is nothing to do with me as such, it is just what I know about. Alternatively, if you are not willing to do so, then please keep an eye on it. Thanks. 217.43.5.168 (talk) 03:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @ 03:17, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- For anyone that would like an easy way to monitor the range, Contributions from 217.43.5.168/16 Since 2014-08-02. Also 217.43.5.168/24. (requires /16 CIDR range gadget be enabled in your user preferences) Monty845 03:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Malerooster
During an ongoing, peaceful and collaborative Good Article review by User:Moisejp of Paul Conrad, an article I nominated for GA, Malerooster (talk · contribs) showed up and began making a series of unfounded deletions, reversions, and personal attacks on Paul Conrad, Talk:Paul Conrad, and Talk:Paul Conrad/GA1.[20] [21] I've asked him to stop and he's refused. As a result, I've asked him to leave the article alone and stop disrupting the reivew. He's refused and he's strangely accused me of "bullying". I would like administrative attention in the matter so I can get back to collaborating with the nominator and working on the review. Malerooster's behavior is making it impossible to edit. Viriditas (talk) 02:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Reviewing the back and forth - Malerooster appears to be only on that article to be disruptive. At least one of his suggestions is directly opposed by the MOS. A block may be appropriate if he does not disengage.--v/r - TP 03:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Open proxy
Me - safenfree.com 23.252.109.229 (talk) 05:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Above user appears to be the "Maria Sharapova's fanny" user that's popped up here at least once before... - Purplewowies (talk) 05:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Thoms05:52, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's late, and while I could remember that the person was a sockmaster, I couldn't remember who the sockmaster was. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
uas2.com too 23.252.110.47 (talk) 05:36, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Outstanding unblock request
Would someone please accept or deny the unblock request of Joe Bodacious? Two kinds of pork (talk) 11:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Derogatory comments and false accussations
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recently while editing I have received much abuse from User talk:John from Idegon. Please look int the matter. I have posted several warnings and removed the offensive material to only face further abuse. He has also posted defamotory wording on the James Stacy:Talk page which I reverted due to his uncivil post.208.54.45.227 (talk) 09:13, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- John placed the following diatribe on my talk page: you are acting in extreme bad faith. i don't care what kind of a crusade you are on, even criminals have rights and we will not be adding a ref that's only purpose is to get the subject of the article's address into the article. It is coming back out. You made an edit i disagreed with. I removed it. justify it and come to a consensus with the other editors before replacing it. you have sent me a level 2 warning, dude that doesn't even have a talk page til I hit the damn save button here. I've made close to 30,000 edits. You are wayyyyy out of line. WP:AGF is not optional and Wikipedia is not the place for your crusades.
I have no idea what crusade he is claiming nor do I care how highly he thinks of himself. I placed a warning for this nonsense he posted above as being uncivil and derogatory. On the James Staccy talk page he posted this after my post:
Added current credible, verifible links
Many of the references have been updated with some new ones added. The sources are now current. Many of the links were dead, did not contain information cited or unreliable. JamesStacy.com did not contain any information it was supposedly citing and it is an unreliable source. Multiple publications and government sex registries demonstrate he is a convicted child molestor of a child under 14 (specifically an 11 year old girl). It is verifiable by many credible sources and he is convicted so it is suitable for the lede. There may be future attempts to remove his convictions by fans and those promoting child molestation. This type of vandalism must be guarded against. 208.54.45.227 (talk) 07:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
No one will be entering into this discussion with you. When you start a conversation with "Do you enjoy beating your wife?", there really isn't any way for a person to dialogue with you. WP:AGF. WP:CITELEAD certainly applies. This is a short article and the lede is doing its job nicely summarizing the facts. There is no need to reference the facts there. A unique reference was added by the tactful fella above to a commercial aggregrator of sex offender data, but that is not a reliable source. Even if it was it references nothing that isn't already referenced. I think what we have here is someone trying to backdoor in some information that is there that we should not be linking to. John from Idegon (talk) 08:18, 2 August 2014 (UTC) I subsequently removed his offensive diatribe and warned him agin to remain civil. He replied with an accussation of disruptive editing for removing his uncivil post. See
- (Non-administrator comment) If you start out by calling other peoples edits "vandalism", you should not be that amazed people do not react very positively. If you subsequently remove talk page contributions calling them "uncivil, accusatory and derogatory" you might want to be wary of a few boomerangs hovering menacingly in the vicinity. Kleuske (talk) 09:37, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry guy, but when you start out a discussion stating that you are going to presume anyone that disagrees with you is a promoter of child molestation, you are not going to get the kindest answers. You have sent me a total of three totally false warning templates and redacted my comment from the article talk page. If stating that you are going to assume anyone who changes the page away from your version must be promoting child molestation, then you have to expect most people will assume you are on a crusade. There has been no incivility whatsoever in my dialouge with him. It hasn't even been all that harsh. I really need to get to bed, so have fun guys. Happy editing. John from Idegon (talk) 09:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Calling John's comments uncivil and derogatory was correct. Here are his own word's: "you are acting in extreme bad faith. i don't care what kind of a crusade you are on" and "I've made close to 30,000 edits. You are wayyyyy out of line. WP:AGF is not optional and Wikipedia is not the place for your crusades." Warning an editor to refrain from uncivil behavior is policy in WP:Civil. A close look at his own edit history also shows he has used the term vandalism frequently. Also what is the purpose of bragging about his number of edits? Is he counting them for some reason. Hasty editing can be very disruprtive.
I have remained Civil
All during this time that I have faced John's abusive comments I have remained civil and grew tired off his abuse and gaming the ssytem with his cherry picking alphabet soup policies while ignoring the five basic pillars. Assume good faith and remain civil among two of the most obvious. A thorough check of his editing history and comments may be in order as well. 208.54.45.227 (talk) 09:59, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Here are Jon's comments on the Talk Page in Question:
No one will be entering into this discussion with you. When you start a conversation with "Do you enjoy beating your wife?", there really isn't any way for a person to dialogue with you.
Wow is all I can say. "No one will talk to you" Wow that's pretty presumptive! Then John states: "Do you enjoy beating your wife?" I have no clue were he is going with this. Where did that come from??? Then he ridicules me as a tactful fella here: A unique reference was added by the tactful fella above to a commercial aggregrator of sex offender data. Why not just say you believe that one of five citations I listed is not reliable. I would of had no problem with that. Then he attacks my motives with this accussation: "I think what we have here is someone trying to backdoor in some information that is there that we should not be linking to." How did he determine all of this and why such hostility and uncivil behavior? This further directed ridicule and accussation was not something for a talk page. He was directly accussing an editors motives and was very uncivil as well. And his refusal to show any concern for my concerns about his uncivil bahavior led us here. He since posted a complaint after I notified him of this one on his talk page. 208.54.45.227 (talk)
- He has also reposted the above derogatory post to the articles talk page. I would apreciate if he removed the post that ridicules another editor ad make false statements concerning another editors intentions. 208.54.45.227 (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could some eyes be added to the above page and talk? Appears we have a rather "committed" editor who does not understand the process at all. Been getting templated, had my comments removed at the article talk page, etc. Will notify. Not looking for sanctions, just other voices to explain things to him. Thank you. BTW, I will be offline for a while. John from Idegon (talk) 09:17, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Additional: the ip (208.54.45.227) has posted a notice of action on my talk page saying there is a discussion about this at WP:AN. At last look there wasn't. John from Idegon (talk) 09:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ah there it is., right above here! John from Idegon (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2014
(UTC)
- I am running down here to write because I can't tell where to answer anything above. He's writing in the middle of my and the other editors comments, randomly jumping back and forth from bullets to indents and throwing in random subheaders besides. I am just gonna stay here, duck and wait for the boomerangs. John from Idegon (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just a couple quick observations:
- I am running down here to write because I can't tell where to answer anything above. He's writing in the middle of my and the other editors comments, randomly jumping back and forth from bullets to indents and throwing in random subheaders besides. I am just gonna stay here, duck and wait for the boomerangs. John from Idegon (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Telling anyone who mayy oppose your viewpoint that you are going to consider them a vandal and pro-child molestation is about as univil as it gets.
- telling someone that has reached that level of uncivilness that they are uncivil is not uncivil.
- telling someone whose reactions to being told that were way out of line is not way out of line. John from Idegon (talk) 10:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Possible sock puppet of David Beals
I came across this today. User talk:98.221.93.96. The latest unblock request is a link that redirects to a Youtube video of a ceiling fan. I have a feeling this might be David Beals. Can someone take a look at this? The Newspaper (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- David Beals it is, and they weren't blocked (yet), but are now, with talkpage access removed and the IP hard-blocked. I assume we'll be seeing his socks this evening. Acroterion (talk) 23:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Violations of WP:Civility, WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:BLPGroup by User:Serialjoepsycho
I am asking for an administrator to please review the following, and take remedial action against
Serialjoepsycho has clearly exhibited several of the named incivility behaviors Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying_incivility. The following diffs demonstrate his taunting, false allegations of me being racist, attempts to malign me in Talk page discussions, and repeated incivility despite my asking him to please stop, even after I refrained from responding directly to him, and tried to ignore him. [22] [23]
This issue has been on-going since March 2014, beginning with our differences over the inclusion of the Islamophobia template in the
Not only is Serialjoepsycho violating
A recent ANRFC review by
The
- ) 21:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe the OP could summarize the issue in 25 words or less. And what's this stuff about how Islamophobia doesn't exist? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Trimmed it down as suggested. Hope it's trimmed enough. Atsme☯Consult 22:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- This ANI is not about the Islamophobia template, or whether or not Islamophobia exists - it does exist, no question about it - the ANI is about the violations stated in the subject header which cover nearly a 5 month period. I again apologize for the lengthy report, and trimmed it as requested. Atsme☯Consult 22:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It looks like a dispute over content and the meaning of words. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The original post could use a signature just so we are clear who this is from and where the original post ends.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It got trimmed. The OP needs to un-trim that line. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs - Sig replaced. Trying to accommodate the requests without compromising the important issues in the original report which are very important considering the violations involved. Atsme☯Consult 22:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good. Now, what you could have done was to leave the original intact and present a 25-words-or-less summary of the issue. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs - Sig replaced. Trying to accommodate the requests without compromising the important issues in the original report which are very important considering the violations involved. Atsme☯Consult 22:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It got trimmed. The OP needs to un-trim that line. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The original post could use a signature just so we are clear who this is from and where the original post ends.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It looks like a dispute over content and the meaning of words. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Response by Serialjoepsycho I haven't really read that wall of text but it seems alot like the same thing Atsme opened up against me a couple of weeks ago. Here it is.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 08:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm also unaware of any false allegations that I've made.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 08:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Atsme, the admins don't need all the policy alphabet soup, it just gets in the way and bloats up your post. They're familiar with those policies. They need diffs. I don't see any violations in the few diffs you do give. Serialjoepsycho wasn't editing in a good-tempered way, certainly, but I can easily see how his/her patience was being tried in those contexts. Bishonen | talk 08:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC).
Atsme's SHORTENED VERSION: It is very disruptive when a fellow editor who doesn't even know you keeps labeling you, and implying that you are a racist and a bigot, and taunts you repeatedly for months. His behavior has been extremely disruptive to the projects, and to my ability to edit or participate in discussions. He has singled me out in discussions for the sole purpose of belittling me, and trying to make others believe I am a racist and a bigot in an attempt to destroy my credibility. Furthermore, what he is doing is blatant bad faith editing, and should not be taken lightly because he has repeatedly violated WP:Civility. Following is a short list of a few of his offending comments with accompanying diffs, but the list only addresses the WP:Civility violations, not WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:BLPGroup which also need to be addressed.
- "Thank you for your irrelevant comments here. My intent and purpose for you? I have none other than to stop your POV pushing agenda to accomplish your previously stated goal of whitewashing wikipedia of all mention of Islamophobia." [33]
- "Grief? To whom? You? It's justifiable. Like the "grief" I give you for removing the Islamophobia template when there is a consensus to keep it. Why would I put more energy in Roku achieving GA status?" [34]
- "You literally have grasp at straws to have anything to say. You know little of Wikimedian philosophy." [35]
- "But by all means report me please. Let's play this game. Do it." [36]
- "What you fail to understand {{ping:Atsme}} is that your opinion is irrelevant." [37]
- "Your mention of the little kidnapped girls and much of the rest of it amounts to systemic bias." [38]
- "She came up with a scheme to get it deleted, so that she could recreate it to her desire." [39]
- "It seems to fit in with her borderline racist claim that muslim terrorism is proof that Islamophobia doesn't exist." [40]
- "Or hell just watch as she circles thru arguments and schemes to get rid of the Islamophobia template." [41]
- "Maybe you can explain to them how there actually are Muslim Terrorists out there and that proves that Islamophobia does not exist. You know, like you did here, Atsme." [42]
- "If you do not want editors agitating you on the talk page by commenting on your comments then don't comment on a talk page." [43]
- "I strongly suggest you do not make any changes in Islamophobia related articles to pursue the goal you have outlined above about your desire to Push POV." [44]
- "But if you start that article I'll happily bring over the Islamophobia template before I start a AFD." [45]
- "On a side note this looks like another episode of Atsme gaming the system. WP:STONEWALL logic. [46]
- "Bad faith negotiating is what it is called. But I really can't "well say color me surprised." [47]
I again apologize to the admins and other editors who have already reviewed my incident for the bloated beginning, and respectfully request remedial action so that I may return to my work as an editor without taunting, and uncivil disruption by Serialjoepsycho. Atsme☯Consult 14:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- These diffs all seem to be from talk pages. Can you provide some diffs of where the editor in question has reverted or altered your edits or comments? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:42, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
While I did revert this I have to point to the next edit here In the first I say I'm going to move it to another section and then I do. This removal she justified with cherry picked sources. Note she also removed the Islamophobia template which was her original reason for being there even though there was a consensus to keep it. These others went from irrelevant statements to BLP violations. I and another user saw them as relevant. It was then taken to BLPN and the previous ANI I linked above. It's interesting that she says she created her This on July 2 second because on June 27 she went to have it merged and deleted. On July 2 she comments, "A new article should be created with the proper title, The Investigative Project on Terrorism Foundation, complete with an accurate infobox, and any information that is relevant to the foundation."[55] It's interesting that her sandbox was made for the reason she claims above when it seems like an attempt to remove the Islamophobia template without getting consensus. Some of the "new text" seems to be ripped from the original article. Previous editors wouldn't be attributed for their work.I actually called her comments racist. I haven't to the best of my knowledge called her racist yet. Her assertion that because Muslim Terrorists exist that there can not be Islamophobia is racist. Since there are Jewish Terrorists can we then claim there is no Antisemitism? She is tendentious editor breaking her back to get around the consensus. Look again at her ending response. She acts like this ANI new and all of a sudden when its a continuation of the previous one from 2 weeks or so ago. There aren't even any new claims. I'm also not sure what my contribution history will show? Have I been mostly on talk pages? Is that even remotely relevant? I do alot of RFC's. Am I getting accused of Metapedianism?Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- FYI - WP:SYNTH violations. I am not the only editor who is aware of the problems with that article. Perhaps a topic ban against you is necessary, especially in light of your continued belittling and false allegations against me. I remain optimistic that the admins will recognize the seriousness of your violations, and will take some form of remedial action against you to correct them. If they don't, I'm concerned your behavior will only worsen. Atsme☯Consult18:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- This post is not worth responding to. You attack my credibility with my editing history but then when it comes to the question of how that's relevant you go on an irrational tangent. Which claim do you want substantiated? If they aren't already substantiated here then they have likely been Here. I've made no false allegations against you that I'm aware of. There is no denying the IPT article has problems. It is like many articles in that respect. I'm sure it will be fixed by it's deadline. Eventually is the deadline.The articles been on BLPN and this is the second time you have brought it to ANI. All by you. I mention the article is brought here because that's what this seems all about. You moved to merge and delete the article while planning to recreate it in your own image. [56] [57] [58] I linked the evidence of your canvassing in the original ANI. Hell there really is no point in responding. Everything has been said and verified and multiple times.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You attack my credibility with my editing history... - if you believe your credibility was attacked by your own edit history, you might want to reconsider your purpose on WP. This ANI is about your policy violations, bad faith editing, disruptions, and taunting. My attempts to correct your WP:BLP violation at the BLPN are not justification for you to continue your disruptive behavior, and neither is my prior ANI report. You refuse to stop, and have forced me to again ask an administrator for help. Atsme☯Consult06:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oh so you weren't attacking my credibility by mentioning my editing history? Do tell what your multiple mentions of it in multiple places are meant to do? I'm unaware of any policy violations I've made, but surely ANI will mention something. There are your accusations but then all of this seems to be tied to your desire to remove a template from an article page without achieving consensus. Perhaps I've breached the civility guidelines but if so I'd hardly be the first editor to do that in the face of a persistent and tendentious editor like yourself. I suppose "my BLP violation" forced you to canvass for editors when you opened your merge proposal and everything else previously mentioned in the other ANI. Can someone close this BS or topic ban her and then close this BS?Serialjoepsycho (talk) 09:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- You attack my credibility with my editing history... - if you believe your credibility was attacked by your own edit history, you might want to reconsider your purpose on WP. This ANI is about your policy violations, bad faith editing, disruptions, and taunting. My attempts to correct your
- This post is not worth responding to. You attack my credibility with my editing history but then when it comes to the question of how that's relevant you go on an irrational tangent. Which claim do you want substantiated? If they aren't already substantiated here then they have likely been Here. I've made no false allegations against you that I'm aware of. There is no denying the IPT article has problems. It is like many articles in that respect. I'm sure it will be fixed by it's deadline. Eventually is the deadline.The articles been on BLPN and this is the second time you have brought it to ANI. All by you. I mention the article is brought here because that's what this seems all about. You moved to merge and delete the article while planning to recreate it in your own image. [56] [57] [58] I linked the evidence of your canvassing in the original ANI. Hell there really is no point in responding. Everything has been said and verified and multiple times.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
What I did was report your disruptive behavior, and policy violations. What you are doing is continuing to be disruptive by making groundless, contradictory claims, and showing complete disrespect for the purpose of this ANI. The violations I reported here are what needs to be addressed, not your groundless allegations. You stated: My intent and purpose for you? I have none other than to stop your POV pushing agenda to accomplish your previously stated goal of whitewashing wikipedia of all mention of Islamophobia. That statement alone substantiates my claims and your motivations. You not only admitted your intent and single purpose for me, you acted on it, and by doing so, you violated policy. Your preconceived notions about "my goals" are not only ludicrous, they are downright lies, and totally unjustifiable. You know full well that I was not POV pushing the same way you knew a consensus had not been reached about the template, yet you lied and said it had. When lies are repeated often enough they become the truth, and it is my intention to protect my credibility as a good faith editor. My edit contributions speak for me. Your bad faith edits, racist claims, and other violations are what require the topic ban, and possibly even a block to stop your stated intent and purpose, which is based on false allegations as proven by the diffs I've provided, and your own contradictory statements in this ANI. A topic ban and block against you will give good faith editors an opportunity to fix the problems you've created without your disruptive edits, or concern over you trolling their edits and making other WP:Civility violations on talk pages as you've been doing to me. Atsme☯Consult 16:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not here here to kiss the ass of a tendentious editor. At best you're painting yourself to be a Civil POV Pusher but honestly I don't see it that way. My intent and purpose has been clear before that when it became clear that you were a pov pushing tendentious editor. Your position that Islamophobia doesn't exist because there are Islamic terrorists is racist, bigoted, highly biased, or insert the politically correct term of your choice term is from the AP stylebook. That position was linked on the previous ANI and it's on that wikiproject on discrimination page. Your actions and your editing history speak volumes. The one clear thing you've consistently attempted to do is remove that template. That is what you were doing before in March. That is one of the things you did coming back in June and you did it repeatedly. You moved to have the article deleted while planning on creating it again in your own image. Also The IPT talk page will see you make similar accusations against Alf.laylah.wa.laylah. This is a BS waste if time. I wonder where they laid the boomerang?Serialjoepsycho (talk) 00:46, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not here here to kiss the ass of a tendentious editor. At best you're painting yourself to be a
Unsourced content on template documentation page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There was a RfC concerning a possible removal of the manufacturer parameter on
- The requirement of reliable sources applies to encyclopedic content, not to Wikipedia-internal discussion, guideline or instruction material. Unless the documentation in question was proposing a non-trivial and potentially contentious claim of encyclopedic fact, I don't see how "sourcing" for it could be an issue. What's contentious here? The idea that cars have manufacturers? I may be missing something here, but that seems utterly bizarre to me. Who else would build a car if not a manufacturer? What's the deal? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The problem appears to be that no source is given for the Toyota XYZ being manufactured by Toyota. Someone searching the Goog for "Toyota XYZ" will end up at Template:Infobox automobile/sandbox, which transcludes the documentation. If someone were to write an article at Toyota XYZ with a source for the manufacturer, we wouldn't have this problem. But it would be rather difficult to write such an article, since the car doesn't exist. --NE2 20:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, but the fictitious car is not the problem here (although I personally would prefer a real one, but that’s a whole different question). -- Brakehorsepower (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- “Who else would build a car if not a manufacturer?”: So you expect the manufacturer to be the one who builds the car? That’s contradictory to what template documentation says: “the company, division, or subsidiary responsible for the vehicle's engineering and development”…
- What if the term manufacturer was non-trivial? Actually, that’s just the problem. I don’t expect anybody to read through the whole lengthy discussion; but if you did, you would notice that people think they can use the term as they want to and don’t pay any attention to the fact that it’s a technical term. Just have a quick look at Vehicle Identification Number#World manufacturer identifier.
- Most comments during RfC were like: “If there is wrong data entered in some articles, just fix it.” How am I supposed to do so if template documentation is not correct? The first step must be to give an exact and sourced definition. Only then can infoboxes be filled in correctly.
- Why do you think that template documentation is not encyclopaedic content? Of course it is, just look at “the one who builds the car” vs. “the one who is responsible for the vehicle's engineering and development”. Parameters are not always self-explanatory; sometimes you need template documentation to understand them, at least if there is no appropriate wikilink for them. Like in this case, for example. -- Brakehorsepower (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have to admit the technical distinction between those different meanings of "manufacturer" escaped me on first reading through this. But anyway, the community at that RfC has decided that they want the template to continue to have a parameter under that name, and that people feel that in the majority of cases the use of the field is not problematic. What you can do now if you are still unhappy about how it's used: you can propose new or clarified guidelines on the doc page about how to deal with those (I suppose relatively rare) cases where the role of "manufacturer" is unknown, unclear, or where the company that technically "manufactures" a car is different from the one that developed and designed it. You can propose changing the display label of the field in the infobox if you think it's technically misleading in too many cases. You can go through articles and spot problematic cases and start discussions on the article talk pages about how best to deal with them. What you cannot do, now that the RfC has decided that the field will stay, is to use the documentation page for an end-run around that decision and make it appear to the reader as if the field didn't exist. That's what you appear to have been doing, and it's a rather blatant case of disruptive editing against consensus, so you really need to stop doing that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Technically, talk) 01:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Technically,
- I have to admit the technical distinction between those different meanings of "manufacturer" escaped me on first reading through this. But anyway, the community at that RfC has decided that they want the template to continue to have a parameter under that name, and that people feel that in the majority of cases the use of the field is not problematic. What you can do now if you are still unhappy about how it's used: you can propose new or clarified guidelines on the doc page about how to deal with those (I suppose relatively rare) cases where the role of "manufacturer" is unknown, unclear, or where the company that technically "manufactures" a car is different from the one that developed and designed it. You can propose changing the display label of the field in the infobox if you think it's technically misleading in too many cases. You can go through articles and spot problematic cases and start discussions on the article talk pages about how best to deal with them. What you cannot do, now that the RfC has decided that the field will stay, is to use the documentation page for an end-run around that decision and make it appear to the reader as if the field didn't exist. That's what you appear to have been doing, and it's a rather blatant case of disruptive editing against consensus, so you really need to stop doing that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- The problem appears to be that no source is given for the Toyota XYZ being manufactured by Toyota. Someone searching the Goog for "Toyota XYZ" will end up at Template:Infobox automobile/sandbox, which transcludes the documentation. If someone were to write an article at Toyota XYZ with a source for the manufacturer, we wouldn't have this problem. But it would be rather difficult to write such an article, since the car doesn't exist. --NE2 20:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is not an admin issue, and as Fut.Perf. stated above, ) 16:22, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please have a look at the template. You will notice that some parameters include wikilinks, such as [[Model year]]s, [[Car classification|Class]], [[Automobile layout|Layout]] or [[Automobile platform|Platform]]. There is no need to switch from main namespace to template namespace in order to see the definitions of these parameters. Do those definitions, which are all within main namespace, have to be verifiable? If so, why not those that don’t have a wikilink, but just a description on template documentation? -- Brakehorsepower (talk) 21:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You must be be trolling with that comment. The template's documentation describes what each parameter is for and what information an editor should include. ) 11:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please have a look at the template. You will notice that some parameters include wikilinks, such as [[Model year]]s, [[Car classification|Class]], [[Automobile layout|Layout]] or [[Automobile platform|Platform]]. There is no need to switch from main namespace to template namespace in order to see the definitions of these parameters. Do those definitions, which are all within main namespace, have to be verifiable? If so, why not those that don’t have a wikilink, but just a description on template documentation? -- Brakehorsepower (talk) 21:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any need for admin intervention here. All that is happening here is that the discussion that has been going on in other venues is happening here. A moderated discussion might be needed here, you could ask at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. GB fan 11:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- If there is any admin intervention needed, it is over Brakehorsepower's edit war on the template's documentation of a parameter. —Farix (t | c) 12:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Logos5557: May or may not be. The point is that users do never have the authority to interpret a technical term; that’s why I don’t really bother about the intentions they might have had, it’s nothing of importance. What matters are reliable, qualified sources.
- @GB fan: DRN? Good idea – in theory. Here’s what happened: Closed as out-of scope of DRN.
- @TheFarix: It would have been more serviceable to answer my questions than just to call me a troll… but maybe too difficult if someone doesn’t understand that a parameter’s definition (whether given by a wikilink in the template itself and therefore directly accessible from every article or just written down on the template’s documentation page) has an immediate impact on the accuracy of every article.
- @Fut.Perf.: As some begin to think that I might want to discuss content here – which is not the case –, I’m going to answer in few words: Yes, still unhappy. No, won’t propose new guidelines; this suggestion is the exact opposite of what WP:V says: I may also remove content, I don’t have to come up with a new proposal if something is unsourced. No, won’t change the display label; RfC decision says nothing about the content, only about the label, therefore I see no possibility to change it at all. No, not enthusiastic about starting discussions on article talk pages; wouldn’t that be a clear case of WP:POINT? If you say it’s not, I may try that; but I think users won’t be keen on discussing the parameter’s description on an article talk page, because that’s what’s going to be the outcome. -- Brakehorsepower (talk) 22:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Melenc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I want to report this user for harassment and repeated personal attacks. Their activity consists in continuous violations of guidelines, edit-warring over punctuation and even insertion of wrong information[66][67] and removal of reliably sourced text[68]. These violations led me and other editors to revert many of their edits.[69][70] Edit-warring and personal attacks (including borderline racial slurs) against me followed.[71][72][73][74][75] They keep posting gibberish on my talk-page despite the fact that I asked them to stop doing so. Their egregious attacks include the following: "can you stop to pass your all time from editing Greek articles", "People from other nationalities would be good to edit in their object", "I suppose I talk to a human be[ing]". --Omnipaedista (talk) 13:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ι asked a place to commumicate with this user, so I send the informations into his talk page to explain him the way he continuing be interested on the wiki-policies only for the Greek articles. For example he was edited the article Adam, but he didn't change it's WP:OVERLINK, as he actually did for Leto in Greek lang-, but upside he told me that I send him gibberishes even if he conceded shortly afterwards! So, I contact with him for some those removal information by him, that he conceded it then, later. Then I had some personal attacks on my talk page Do you actually know what you are doing? --Omnipaedista (talk) 05:54, 31 July 2014. The only interest from me is to fill leftovers made by such major empathy with the Articles by the specific user and το contribute to the correctly use on wiki-pages with no abuse.--Melenc (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see where the personal attack is in the diff provided by Melenc right above.--Jetstreamer Talk 14:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- How hard did you look, Jetstreamer? I can see how it would be construed that way. Makes me wonder, really, do you actually know what you are doing? (see what I did, there...?) I wouldn't see that as an attack myself, but different folks are sensitive to different things, and it could be seen as a slur on competence. I'd be less than happy to have it said to me probably. Nuances can be lost when only text exists.
There's obviously a language problem, and a bit of a disagreement here, but it bears mention that I see little "egregious" in the quoted "attacks" in the OP, either. Recommend hugs, kisses, tolerance, and no fighting in the playground here, maybe Melenc is linguistically out of their depth, and needs help, or advice. Maybe their English is not good enough to really edit here effectively. Nevertheless, storm - teacup. Begoon talk 16:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a really problem with English language, I agree that may I have some problems with wiki-tactics, yes I agree, but anyway this is something that has nothing to do, with the above documentation I just gave above and the reason I wrote those lines! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melenc (talk • contribs)
- Melenc, take it from someone who has no interest at all in the topics you edit on but who does speak English fluently: you are much less fluent in English than you believe you are. Your comments here are difficult to understand because your English is so poor. Looking back at your earlier contributions elsewhere, I see the same issue. You need to improve your English if you plan to continue to edit here. Nobody is using wiki-tactics here. --NellieBly (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a really problem with English language, I agree that may I have some problems with wiki-tactics, yes I agree, but anyway this is something that has nothing to do, with the above documentation I just gave above and the reason I wrote those lines! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melenc (talk • contribs)
- How hard did you look, Jetstreamer? I can see how it would be construed that way. Makes me wonder, really, do you actually know what you are doing? (see what I did, there...?) I wouldn't see that as an attack myself, but different folks are sensitive to different things, and it could be seen as a slur on competence. I'd be less than happy to have it said to me probably. Nuances can be lost when only text exists.
- I don't see where the personal attack is in the diff provided by Melenc right above.--Jetstreamer Talk 14:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- After my inform he complied. My english obviosly isn't good there, because I am busy, but what it counts is that there was the responding to my informing which was proved useful!--Melenc (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- See, the thing is, Melenc, Nellie is right. The very sentences you posted above are pretty poor English, and I had to read them a couple of times to understand you. Your English is far better than my Greek , but then I only ever learnt ancient Greek at school, and I've forgotten all that. Honestly, at that conversational level, you're going to find things very difficult here, and there will be lots of misunderstandings, like we see above. I know English wikipedia is the biggest, but participation does require a higher level of English communication than you seem to be demonstrating. Sometimes it's better to edit your local wiki until you've improved your English skills a bit - otherwise it can cause the problems you've been experiencing here. Begoon talk 23:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- For the record, I do not see my comment as a "slur on competence". After the repeated failure of this editor to keep up with academic and Wikipedia standards and their refusal to reply to any comment on their talk page for the past few months or to comply to Wikipedia policies, it is getting clear that somehow they have got to be informed that their editing is disruptive. On the contrary, their assumptions and attacks are quite egregious indeed. They assume that certain matters have to be edited only by people of a certain nationality and other people should keep off those matters. Telling non-policy-violating editors "how to pass their time" and how to act according to their nationality is rude. I could argue that cases of editors that are not in the right in both matters of conduct and matters of content are actionable. --Omnipaedista (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- And I pretty much agree with everything you say, there, except "egregious attacks". Rude, certainly. As I said initially, I don't see your comment as an attack either, I am just able to see how it could be taken that way. I do feel the language barrier is the biggest, root issue, hence deep frustration, hence these problems. Hopefully Melenc is beginning to realise that. As Nellie points out, they seem to have a much higher opinion of their own English competence than is warranted, and this often leads to conflict in cases like this, where they believe their actions and communications are understood and acceptable, whereas in reality they are not, and confusion and conflict is the result of the frustration. It becomes a vicious loop. Unfortunate, but happens a lot here, due to the size and visibility of en.wikipedia as the leading search-engine result, and thus the wish to edit here, rather than a native language project. Begoon talk 01:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- For the record, I do not see my comment as a "slur on competence". After the repeated failure of this editor to keep up with academic and Wikipedia standards and their refusal to reply to any comment on their talk page for the past few months or to comply to Wikipedia policies, it is getting clear that somehow they have got to be informed that their editing is disruptive. On the contrary, their assumptions and attacks are quite egregious indeed. They assume that certain matters have to be edited only by people of a certain nationality and other people should keep off those matters. Telling non-policy-violating editors "how to pass their time" and how to act according to their nationality is rude. I could argue that cases of editors that are not in the right in both matters of conduct and matters of content are actionable. --Omnipaedista (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- See, the thing is, Melenc, Nellie is right. The very sentences you posted above are pretty poor English, and I had to read them a couple of times to understand you. Your English is far better than my Greek
- Ι asked a place to commumicate with this user, so I send the informations into his talk page to explain him the way he continuing be interested on the wiki-policies only for the Greek articles. For example he was edited the article Adam, but he didn't change it's WP:OVERLINK, as he actually did for Leto in Greek lang-, but upside he told me that I send him gibberishes even if he conceded shortly afterwards! So, I contact with him for some those removal information by him, that he conceded it then, later. Then I had some personal attacks on my talk page Do you actually know what you are doing? --Omnipaedista (talk) 05:54, 31 July 2014. The only interest from me is to fill leftovers made by such major empathy with the Articles by the specific user and το contribute to the correctly use on wiki-pages with no abuse.--Melenc (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill academics-athletics scandal
Sadly I'm just having to head out the door here, or I'd look at it myself, but there's an edit war (I think) and some fairly serious BLP issues. Thanks in advance, --j⚛e deckertalk 00:36, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- User:ForeNikeGolf is up to 12RR (!) and says "I will keep adding these facts as long as needed." Woodroar (talk) 01:06, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- There are others continuing to reinsert unsourced BLP content. Suggest that the page be locked.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:18, 3 August 2014 (UTC) Most recent good version is here.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:19, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Blocked 24 hours by Monty845, though given the scope of the edit-warring and BLP violations, an indef is warranted. I've revdeling their contributions as flagrant BLP violations. Acroterion (talk) 01:21, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Acroterion: if you want to change it to an indef, I will defer to your judgement. Monty845 01:22, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I just blocked a blatant sockpuppet account. While I respect your restraint, I think the well is poisoned and strong action is required. With your concurrence, I'll change to indef. Acroterion (talk) 01:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your probably right, even the old edit from 5 years ago when the account was created was pretty unconstructive, and the sock is pretty obvious... go ahead. Monty845 01:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Done, and a note left. I've deleted a bunch of revisions by that account as well as some earlier edits by an IP. I doubt the history is clear of BLP violations, and the article itself probably needs a thorough review for other BLP issues. Acroterion (talk) 01:37, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your probably right, even the old edit from 5 years ago when the account was created was pretty unconstructive, and the sock is pretty obvious... go ahead. Monty845 01:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
With
The incidents arise in the context of the discussion of allegations by the New York Times and found to have probable cause by the US Army War College that John Walsh (U.S. politician) had plagiarized roughly two-thirds of 2007 master's thesis at the War College. Related discussion can be found at:
- Talk:John Walsh (U.S. politician)#Plagiarism allegation
- WP:BLPN#Allegations of plagiarism by John Walsh (U.S. politician)
- User talk:Billmckern#Montanabw's edits.
Evidence of bullying includes:
- Reverting Presbyterian1 with the edit remark, "Drop the effing stick, Presbyterian1 before we have you blocked." 1.
- Repeatedly asserting in ad hominem fashion that his opinions are more valid than others' by virtue of his "over 15 featured articles to my credit" 2 and demanding, "List your GA, FA and DYK articles, please, (and how many articles have YOU contributed to that have been TFA? I have nine) or else just deal with the reality that your precious prose isn't particularly precious to anyone else." 3. (Note that he appears to be taking sole credit for 15 FAs, though he later denies doing that. 4)
Evidence of tendentiousness and other unhelpful behavior includes:
- Continuing to assert WP:SYNTH and that the allegations of plagiarism are a campaign issue at BLPN without responding to the substance of my arguments or anyone else's in the article talk page or at BLPN, at one point prompting Nomoskedasticity to remark in frustration, "Another assertion of "campaign issue" without any supporting argument attempting to persuade us on the point"5.
- Stating that he could "live with" my edit to the article content re: the allegations 6, eliciting a concilliatory message from me 7 but then blindsiding me twelve minutes later with series of 3 edits in quick succession 7, 8and 9 that fairly completely gutted my contribution, all done without any attempt to discuss. (Note also that the second edit also claims plagiarism in the edit comment.)
- Stating he had been mistakenly been looking at others' edits 10 when in fact I had posted a link to the diff for my edit 11 and clearly he did read it, evidenced by his remark 12 stating that he found it "interesting that the Army itself is takign over the investigation". This is a fact I had introduced in my edit and which had not previously appeared in the article.
Most serious are the personal attacks, which include:
- Calling me "arrogant" and claiming that I had "cast aspersions" 13.
- Claiming that I had plagiarized material by improper "close paraphrasing", made personal attacks and and that I "really don't "get" WP:SYNTH" 14.
- Repeating his claim I plagiarized by improper close paraphrasing and claiming that I had made "mean-spirited attacks" that he implies amount to WP:OUTING 15.
Not only are the personal attacks unwarranted, unsupported by the facts and contrary to policy, I believe the behavior is part of a pattern that has had a chilling effect on the discussion and editing of the article, contrary to the best interests of Wikipedia.
My single edit
I have made a single edit to the article adding content regarding the Times' allegations, seen in this diff 16 and announced at BLPN 17.
Each sentence states a simple claim and each is accompanied by a citation to the source(s) I relied on for that sentence. I devoted only a single sentence to a statement of the allegations and devoted most of the content in equal parts to Walsh's various responses and to the War College's preliminary review indicating they'd found probable cause. I included direct quotes from Walsh, his campaign "fact sheet" and from Lance Betros, provost of the War College. I did not mention any of the many reported (and overwhelmingly negative) reactions from anyone else. And though I personally believe the evidence is damning and that Walsh's responses are completely lame, I tried hard and I believe I was successful in disallowing my own personal views to color what I wrote.
Yes, I did not get consensus beforehand but (a) I don't think there was any real consensus to be had and (b) a corollary perhaps to the observation that it is easier to ask forgiveness than seek permission, I've observed that sometimes editors will accept an edit after it's been made and when they see it in context that they might not have not have accepted when it was presented only as a hypothetical. This worked for me in the past, e.g., when I rewrote the lede to Bash (Unix shell) a couple years ago, suddenly ending what had been a bitter debate on the talk page, and I hoped it would work here. Here, of course, it never got a chance because Montanabw only allowed it to stay there for 12 minutes, meaning almost no one ever saw it.
Having re-read of my edit several times since then (as I almost always do after writing almost anything, aware as I am that I do make mistakes), I can only find 2 things I would change.
- In the second paragraph, I used the phrase, "Presented with multiple examples of identical passages". I gave credit to the NY Times as the source, but I think that phrase is distinctive and in hindsight, I should have either quoted it or, better still, chosen a different expression, perhaps, "Shown examples of allegedly copied material".
- In the third paragraph, I cited <ref name=NYTimes2/> for the third and fourth sentences discussing when the War College review board would meet and how long they would take. I had been renumbering my sources and made a clerical error. That should have been <ref name=NYTimes4/ >.
Of course, we'll never know now, but I think I'd have found and fixed both these errors within a day or so anyway. They certainly don't rise to anything supporting a charge of plagiarism.
Montanbw's charge of plagiarism against me
Montanabw's claim that I have engaged in plagiarism are what most upset me.
I am now semi-retired in a second career as faculty at a state university. I deal with plagiarism as part of my job. Within the academic community, plagiarism and other forms of academic dishonesty are extremely serious offenses. I am expected to know what plagiarism is, what it not and to recognize and report it when I see it. If I report it, I am expected to be right. This is why I took the NYTimes' charges against Walsh so seriously and why I am so upset by Montanabw's charges against me.
I find it completely inexplicable that Montanabw would resist in-depth treatment of the allegations against a public figure reported by the New York Times and numerous other reliable sources adn found to have probable cause by the US Army War College, but insist on making false charges of plagiarism against me in such a cavalier manner, even to the point of doubling down and refusing to retract them 18 after I had explained why he was wrong 19.
The essence of plagiarism is the unacknowledged use of someone else's work. It's using their intellectual property without giving credit. But each and every sentence I added did cite a source. I did give credit. When I invited our university conduct officer to review my edit and Montanabw's charges, here is what she wrote back:
- I think your section on Senator Wash’s plagiarism allegation is very well written and properly cited – no idea what the other person was referencing.
- The sad thing is, those public misconceptions is part of the need for the academic integrity education crusade. So many individuals have different perceptions about the meaning of academic integrity and the consequences….even the consequences of falsely accusing. Excellent response to that individual; absolutely ridiculous!
(I think most of you can form an opinion without need for this, but if anyone does wish to see the original email or would like contact information for our conduct officer, please send me email. I will provide it on request, no questions asked, subject only to the understanding that you should not post anything that might out me here.)
I almost walked away from this
In several of my remarks at BLPN and elsewhere, I made clear that I refused to edit war. I made a single edit and if others didn't come to my defense, I expected to walk away 20 out of concern that if I did anything to revert Monatanbw's changes to what I'd written, that it could lead to an edit war, which I simply did not want. When no one did, I had determined as of two nights ago that I was done and would walk away.
I am here because Montanabw's last edit, doubling down on his claims I'd plagiarized, even though I'd done absolutely nothing wrong and had made no attempt to revert any of edits, was simply the last straw.
I believe there's a pattern here of bullying, personal attacks and other disruptive behavior that has had and will continue to have a chilling effect on discussion. It's not helpful nor is it in the best interests of Wikipedia. It needs to end. I've become satisfied that if I don't step up and report it, possibly taking my own lumps, it won't end.
Coming to ANI is absolutely the last thing I want to do. I dread that no good comes to anyone who comes here for any reason. Having made this report, I intend to say no more. If questions are directed at me, I will answer. But if anyone has criticisms of my behavior, I intend simply to take them to heart and resolve to do better next time. I've said my piece.
Sincerely, Msnicki (talk) 03:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I saw the BLP report and while I didn't do anything, I checked the edits and found that Montanabw was doing precisely the correct thing (Montanabw reverted UNDUE amplifications of breaking news that a politician facing election may be guilty of plagiarism). Thankfully Wikipedia now records the full details (with glowing prose such as "
The normal penalty for plagiarism is rescinding the former student's degree, although lesser disciplinary actions are an option.
"), and there are nine references in case the reader wants any more muck. Thanks for trying Montanabw! Johnuniq (talk) 04:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC) - First point: Wikipedia has very strict copyright rules, perhaps stricter than you might encounter elsewhere. Copying phrases from sources, even if properly attributed, is only permitted if the material is contained inside quotation marks. I have done some further clean-up of material copied directly from the sources. Second point: your addition changed a 45-word section on the plagiarism issue into a 402-word section. In a 1676-word article, the material then comprised 24% of the article. This gives the event undue weight. I have trimmed it further from 253 words when I arrived, down to 185 words. I am not sure it belongs there at all, per our rules on BLPs. -- Diannaa (talk) 05:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- The points made above by Johnuniq and Dianaa above, whilst correct, are content points and are not about behaviour which is what the OP claims are really about. So I went to the article talk page and the BLP thread to see who said what (or more specifically, how it was said). And what is very clear is that Msnicki's points/edit were received calmly and politely, but Msnicki soon went on the attack with allegations of bias, COI, and even abuse of admin tools - all without evidence. Msnicki's approach was confrontational and ABF from the outset. Things went down hill from there. (Just to be clear, I'm not American and have never heard of the politician who is the subject of the article so have no POV axe to grind) DeCausa (talk) 05:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have not yet reviewed all of the evidence, but I don't think there is any excuse for the edit summary by User:Montanabw. I have seen quite a number of edits by that editor, and this seems out of character, but that doesn't make it acceptable.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Like Sphilbrick, I felt that this sounded out of character, so I've looked at all of the diffs here. It looks to me like Montanabw became peeved in dealing with some content issues that I think Johnuniq and Diannaa characterize correctly, but I see this as a civility issue with enough ambiguity that it probably does not require administrative action. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Late to the party, but Tryptofish, Diannaa, DeCause and Johnuniq pretty much sums it up. "Peeved" is a good word. Msnicki seems unduly offended that I reverted his/her edit, then attacked me at a third party's page when the BLP board post went nowhere. And trout me for saying "effing." The other user, Presbyterian1, had a serious stick problem, see the edit history. Meh. Glad to see folks from Canada and the UK watchlisting and watching the POV issues; ever since the issue hit the news, the Walsh article is being hit by a number or relatively new accounts, probably due to the partisan issues surrounding the 2014 election, Walsh's seat is viewed as vulnerable and a potential pickup for the Republican party, so they are going after him pretty hard. Montanabw(talk) 03:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Anon vandalism on James Bowie article
I noticed vandalism on Bowie_knife. While I was asking Help Chat about it, it was undone. Why wait for the Anon editor to be blocked? Is there a way to see all the edits an IP has done?...I'm guessing so. This is one reason I'm starting this conversation. Thoughts? Thanks, Rick
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bowie_knife&diff=619618340&oldid=619471278 IP: 50.153.128.3, Addition: The Bowie Knife is mainly used to maim your neighbors pets in their sleep. Also a good method is to use Chloroform on the Neighbor first, so he doesn't get mad first. "Trust me I've done it before!"
- Hi Alrich44! You can see the editor's edits by clicking on their IP address on the page with the difference that you linked above. Clicking that takes you here, where you can see all the contributions by that IP. All their edits have been reverted, they were warned on their talk page, and they have not edited since the most recent warning.
- You can also check a user's contributions by clicking on the link in the page history, in the "View History" tab at the top of the article.
- Finally, in the future, routine vandalism like that is usually not worth a post here on AN/I. Revert the vandalism, warn the user, perhaps by using one of these templates, and if they continue, report them here. Howicus (Did I mess up?)03:50, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Refer to
- I already explained on his talk page but instead of doing substantial discussion, Benlisquare only reverts me and give me warnings.--Uaat (talk) 11:59, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- You have not explained anything on my talk page. I asked for reasoning, you gave me an opinion. What is your reason for mass removals? You cannot just make one or two posts on my talk page, and then continue mass removals.
As for
Republic of China at the bottom. This user has not made any convincing argument as to why the status quo should be changed. The same goes for the other pages involved, such as List of Chinese flags, which have included the ROC for many many years. --benlisquareT•C•E12:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- The reason I removed them was because including modern Taiwan in articles about China implies that Taiwan is part of China, which violates the NPOV policy. The status quo does not mean consensus,take Template:History of China for example, there was a very long discussion about this in the archive which ended with no consensus, which is typical for discussions about related issues.--Uaat (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- How does it violate NPOV? moluɐɯ 12:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- "including modern Taiwan in articles about China implies that Taiwan is part of China" - no it doesn't, that is just your personal viewpoint. I do not share your interpretation, and so it's opinion and not fact: you cannot pass off opinion as fact. When I explain my opinions, I call them opinions not facts, and you should do the same. "China" does not equate to "PRC", otherwise Taiwan's official name would be "Republic of PRC". There is more than one definition of China, and you cannot simply state the the People's Republic of China is the only one.
"which violates the NPOV policy" - an ironic statement, since by forcing the POV of the
Pan-blue coalition, that too is a POV problem. You cannot pretend that the Pan-Blue viewpoint does not exist, and only the Pan-Green one is correct. --benlisquareT•C•E12:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- You have not explained anything on my talk page. I asked for reasoning, you gave me an opinion. What is your reason for mass removals? You cannot just make one or two posts on my talk page, and then continue mass removals.
(ec)The
IMO, there is no doubt that Taiwan was historically considered a part of China irrespective of who governs Taiwan. Taiwan has also been "governed by Japan" in the past, but that does not make it "part of Japan" just for that reason with regard to how "China" is used here - which is a nation which predominantly has Chinese as the primary language. There is more doubt about Tibet, which is governed by the PRC, as being Chinese as far as many people are concerned in that sense. NPOV would be violated by asserting that Taiwan is part of the PRC, but otherwise id not the problem.
If there is perceived to be an inference of any sort that Taiwan is governed by the PRC which one objects to, then adding that statement is preferable to removing Taiwan universities etc. from being "Chinese." Collect (talk) 12:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Though not always, China usually refers to the PRC. I tried to avoid both POV problems by removing content about Taiwan and moving the title "xxx in China" to "xxx in PRC" at the same time if suitable(ex.
Another opinion - While the edit warring is a bit of a concern (I believe both users should stop reverting/removing), I believe Uaat is acting in good faith. Citing NPOV without any attached reasoning to back it up carries little weight. I think this is more of a content dispute than anything else, and I think it would do best for both users to agree not to edit any articles for now and take this to either one of their talk pages or to
12:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)- Yes, this needs a moratorium on page moves and scope changes pending dispute resolution. A very quick glance at contribution histories suggests to me that neither editor is working completely within the spirit of the outcome of Talk:China/Archive_14#Requested_move_August_2011, which implied to me that articles about contemporary China would generally be concerned with the PRC and exclude ROC/Taiwan, while articles about Chinese history and civilisation could include Taiwan. I'm sure my reading of it is arguable and and am sure that benlisquare could present strong arguments on the subject, just as at that RM discussion - but that's not for ANI. NebY (talk) 13:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Mostly agree with mol here. In particular, Uaat should stop making disputed mass changes. (benlisquare should similarly not make changes to any stable article.) If that happens, there's no need for any of this to be at ANI. If necessary, the proposed changes can be discussed in the proper place, i.e. in a sufficiently advertised RFC. Nil Einne (talk) 22:38, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am open to the idea to starting an RfC on the issue. What would be a suitable location to have it held? It affects more than just one article, after all. --benlisquareT•C•E 05:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Looking through Uaat's contribs, almost all of their edits have to do with separating China and Taiwan. I'm a supporter of Taiwan as well, but their edits are clearly POV driven. I support a block per 00:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Fake "alternative" account pretending to be me
Could someone indefinitely block the malicious account User:Cold_Season.1, who is pretending to be me. I would appreciate it if you also mention that it's an account made by someone else than me (impersonation) if you do. Cheers, Cold Season (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
User:EEng
I consider the recent behavior of
- I agree that EEng is far too enthusiastic in supporting their view of MOS. I started the discussion at MOSNUM and have watched EEng's demolition of Mikhail with distress. Many clever people inhabit MOS, but a couple of them are far too passionate about winning the battle. I don't expect anything much will come from this report, but IMHO EEng should be told to make an argument a couple of times, and then keep quiet. If the issue is as obvious as they think, others will agree without the need to kneecap opponents. Johnuniq (talk) 04:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your participation. :–) As the original topic starter, do you agree that EEng's proposal should be discussed separately? (This is the main reason why I raised the issue here. My concern with EEng is only that he just goes his own way and changes other people's edits without even seeking any consensus.) — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 04:40, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think that's the issue—the problem is that there is too much aggression at MOS. Forceful responses are needed when dealing with POV pushers and spammers, but battleground tactics should not be employed in a discussion about the correct unit for kilowatt-hour. Johnuniq (talk) 07:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I've found him to be quite aggressive in my previous interactions with him in MOS discussions. He entered a discussion at a fairly late stage, accused me of being crazy, dismissed me in a patronising way and tried to shut the discussion down. Not necessarily disruptive, but unconstructive and annoying. Archon 2488 (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think that's the issue—the problem is that there is too much aggression at MOS. Forceful responses are needed when dealing with POV pushers and spammers, but battleground tactics should not be employed in a discussion about the correct unit for kilowatt-hour. Johnuniq (talk) 07:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your participation. :–) As the original topic starter, do you agree that EEng's proposal should be discussed separately? (This is the main reason why I raised the issue here. My concern with EEng is only that he just goes his own way and changes other people's edits without even seeking any consensus.) — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 04:40, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- EEng, I feel like I can't turn around without finding you getting into a dispute with someone else. Please take the following advice. Even if you are correct on the merits, being a wise-guy online does not play well. There are things that you and I can say to one another on our user talk pages that you should not say to editors who are disagreeing with you. Some of the edit summaries in the links above make me cringe. If you are really smart, and I think that you are, you don't need to be a show-off about it, nor to rub it in other editors' faces. There's nothing here for administrators to do, but you, EEng, need to think about what I said. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Endorse Tryptofish's advice. --John (talk) 22:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Tfish, your appeals to my better nature are always appreciated and sometimes even efficacious.
- John, an exhortation to civility from you is almost an honor [85]. (To find that I simply searched your contributions for fuck -- as expected there it was.) EEng (talk) 23:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's nice EEng. A bit of a tu quoque? I am not being discussed here, but you are. "If you are really smart, and I think that you are, you don't need to be a show-off about it, nor to rub it in other editors' faces." I am sure you are smart enough to do better. Please try. --John (talk) 00:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
,_Changgyeonggung_-_Seoul,_Korea.jpg)
- Propose a topic ban from MoS, widely construed. This isn't helpful or proportionate to the importance of the topic. --John (talk) 08:11, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Propose what you like, but don't deny others the pleasure of seeing why you're doing it. [86] EEng (talk) 09:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC) "I think experience testifies that this offence is given whenever the attack is telling and powerful, and that every opponent who pushes them hard, and whom they find it difficult to answer, appears to them, if he shows any strong feeling on the subject, an intemperate opponent." -- Mill
- Support A topic ban would be useful to indicate to EEng that collaboration requires, well, collaborating. There is too much aggression in EEng's 30 posts at WT:MOSNUM#Kilowatt-hour. In this ANI discussion, at 03:33 and (after being reverted) again at 09:24, EEng added three images, each with a POINTy caption/message. Such a response is entirely unhelpful—this is a discussion, not a point-scoring contest. Johnuniq (talk) 09:59, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- POINTY means pursuing, to an excessive degree, a policy or guideline you actually disagree with, with a view to making its "wrongness" obvious to other editors. It doesn't mean making a POINT in an effective way, such as with images of a black pot-and-kettle, a glass house, and a cartoon from the very article to which John himself linked a few posts back.. If you want to replace them with placeholders reading "IMAGES REPRESENTING HYPOCRISY GO HERE" that would be fine; otherwise I stand by them. EEng (talk) 10:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- It requires self-confidence to edit war to DYK (1 + 2 + 3), but adding your three images a third time at ANI (diff) with your conditions under which they can be hidden is highly inappropriate. Perhaps you are caught up in the excitement of clashing intellects or whatever, but please think about the fact that whenever you dominate an opponent, you are also discouraging them from contributing to Wikipedia. If you have confidence in your position, state it a couple of times and let others come to their own assessment without a running commentary. The aim is to get the right outcomes and encourage other people to do good edits. Johnuniq (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- POINTY means pursuing, to an excessive degree, a policy or guideline you actually disagree with, with a view to making its "wrongness" obvious to other editors. It doesn't mean making a POINT in an effective way, such as with images of a black pot-and-kettle, a glass house, and a cartoon from the very article to which John himself linked a few posts back.. If you want to replace them with placeholders reading "IMAGES REPRESENTING HYPOCRISY GO HERE" that would be fine; otherwise I stand by them. EEng (talk) 10:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Said with sadness: given those images, I see that my advice was disregarded almost as soon as I gave it. I'm neutral about the topic ban; please interpret that as being the same thing as "no objection" to the topic ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support topic ban - EEng's assertiveness turns to insults and bashing all too easily and EEng simply cannot relent on MOS-related matters. EEng continues to abuse the ) 06:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
EEng, unless you're Prince Harry or something, you'd better watch out where these personal attacks will land you one day. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 09:41, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Insult and threat by TheAirplaneGuy
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please see [90]
- TheAirplaneGuy reverted 6 edits by me in Malaysia Airlines. I would like to point out that at least two of my edits which he reverted (the removal of the incidents from the fleet table) do reflect the consensus on the talk page. He never tried to discuss the contents of these edits with me.
- I was and am willing to enter a discussion whether or where the information like when the first A380 of the airline went into the assembly phase should be (IMHO definitely not in the destinations section) with any person who starts a discussion with me regarding that, and I do accept when the consensus is against me.
- If another editor would point out in a civilized way that he thinks I should have sought consensus first for any of my edits, I would also be willing to consider and discuss that.
- TheAirplaneGuyinsulted me on my talk page as having vandalized Wikipedia.
- TheAirplaneGuygives me such an only warning without ever attempting to discuss the issue with me in a civilized way first?
- Unless this revert+insult+threat behaviour is accepted in Wikipedia, I do expect administrative sanctions against TheAirplaneGuythat make it clear to him that such behaviour is not accepted.
Thanks for your consideration CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @CorrectKissinTime: I see that the "A380 milestones" section TheAirplaneGuy re-added with their reversion has no sources at all. Apart from that, I cannot find the insult you refer to.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Only warning: Vandalism on Malaysia Airlines. in the edit log and similar text on my talk page. Is calling another person a vandal not considered insulting? CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The main problem is anyway that he tries to enforce his revert through threatening with me getting blocked instead of starting a discussion. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @ 13:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The main problem is anyway that he tries to enforce his revert through threatening with me getting blocked instead of starting a discussion. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Only warning: Vandalism on Malaysia Airlines. in the edit log and similar text on my talk page. Is calling another person a vandal not considered insulting? CorrectKissinTime (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I see zero attempts to try and discuss this "incident" with TheAirplaneGuy before coming here to ANI. Templates are "warnings" not "threats", calling something vandalism that isn't is uncivil...and those two things belong in the realm of user-to-user discussion as neither are blockable. Yes, I agree that 4im was improperly used in this case, but that's guidance and education not administrative blocks the panda ₯’16:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Out of the void reverting of 6 edits and improperly threatening to get me blocked is not a punishable offence? I really have to scale down on the civility I've learned in real life - in the "user-to-user discussion" you want me to have with this guy I might not be much more friendly to him then he is to me (history has proven that Appeasement does not work). CorrectKissinTime (talk) 18:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- What the Panda says. No discussion--and, on the other hand, the warning was inappropriate. The edits themselves are a content matter that should be discussed on the talk page. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Maybe the behaviour does not warrant admin action, but it is not the first time TheAirplaneGuy mislabelled edits as vandalism. See User talk:John.--Jetstreamer Talk 17:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, we've already noted that ... Airplane hasn't edited since this was filed ... I look forward to their reply the panda ₯’ 20:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps he is embarassed by his mistake and has registered another account to continue working discreetly while this blows over? Coming to WP:ANI can be intimidating especially when you realise you have accidentally done something to annoy someone else. I agree though the mature editorial thing to do would be to apologize and refrain from making such edits in the future without proper consideration. Alicb (talk) 11:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Wow what a welcome back! I legit thought he was a vandal, so Alicb just myob (talk)05:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Don't delete that much without consensus proves that you are not telling the truth. Since the amount of deletion (not the contents) was the only thing you criticized when you attacked me and you even considered it possible that I could get consensus for them, it is clear that you were never thinking I was an actual vandal. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 06:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Very funny mate, but why the hell did you wait a few hours to tell me when I was busy? And I legit thought you were a vadal because of the sheer scale of dead bits (talk)06:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't even know what he is referring to with his first sentence. I would like to hear from an admin whether reverting 6 edits, insulting another editor as vandal and only warning threatening he may be blocked from editing without further notice without even looking at the reverted edits is accepted (non-punishable) behaviour in Wikipedia, or whether that is a punishable offence. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 11:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Very funny mate, but why the hell did you wait a few hours to tell me when I was busy? And I legit thought you were a vadal because of the sheer scale of dead bits
- Don't delete that much without consensus proves that you are not telling the truth. Since the amount of deletion (not the contents) was the only thing you criticized when you attacked me and you even considered it possible that I could get consensus for them, it is clear that you were never thinking I was an actual vandal. CorrectKissinTime (talk) 06:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wow what a welcome back! I legit thought he was a vandal, so Alicb just myob
- Perhaps he is embarassed by his mistake and has registered another account to continue working discreetly while this blows over? Coming to WP:ANI can be intimidating especially when you realise you have accidentally done something to annoy someone else. I agree though the mature editorial thing to do would be to apologize and refrain from making such edits in the future without proper consideration. Alicb (talk) 11:30, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, we've already noted that ... Airplane hasn't edited since this was filed ... I look forward to their reply the panda ₯’ 20:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
COI involving lawsuit at Jake Adelstein?
Bridies (talk · contribs) has made highly questionable and poorly referenced material to Jake Adelstein. User has been warned about this on their talk page. User has also engaged in edit-warring and vandalism of the article's talk page. It appears that the user has a long history of causing disturbances on Wikipedia but no action ever seems to be taken. People like this compromise the integrity of Wikipedia and it's reliability. 24.176.33.62 (talk) 14:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I dunno what this dispute is about, but edit summaries like this one invoking legal buzzwords make me think there's at least one IP editor with a significant COI regarding the article. Definitely needs a look. --erachima talk 14:17, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hmmm... Calling people "troll" and removing talk-page content isn't exactly the way to go if you are worried about poorly sourced material. I am also inclined to note that there are no recent contributions to that page by Bridies, yet you seem to escalate it all the way here and to WP:AIV. Definitely not the way to go. Kleuske (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Besides... You might want to notify people when you report them here, if only as a matter of civility... No worries. I did that for you. Kleuske (talk) 15:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, court documents are primary sources and IMDB is also a non-standard source as much of the information there is user-contributed or tertiary. The outcome of the parties' private settlement notwithstanding, you need a better source for "X filed suit in court claiming Y" than their legal filings. You would need a reliable secondary source for that. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:31, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, court documents are
Sigh. I have had nothing to do with the content dispute involving court documents and a lawsuit (which is between a redlinked editor and an IP, and is not at all acrimonious, and has not reached the talk page). I would love to see a diff demonstrating that I've even been editing in relation to that, or that I've added "highly questionable and poorly referenced material". The OP's (who didn't inform me of this ANI, btw) involvement in this article (and almost all of his 4 edits to Wikipedia) was to reply to an old explanation of an unrelated revert I made (which was sufficiently uncontroversial that no one else replied), with similar assertions - as above - about my editing history (no diffs, no specifics at all), with the edit summary "calling out a troll". He made another hostile reply, before simply removing my own (admittedly, and understandably, I would hope) snide replies. Also another IP has been doing the same thing, simply removing my posts and replacing it with accusations of trolling. Suspect either sock- or meatpuppetry. bridies (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- And again, the fact that this is supposed to be about the lawsuit content dispute, and that the OP has any interest in that, is news to me. bridies (talk) 16:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Regards the mysterious escalation to ANI (that Kleuske noted), it comes a day after I asked the other IP to stop removing my talk page comments, on pain of ANI... bridies (talk) 16:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Russia sanctions
Please block all ips from russia until 1 - 1 - 2020. Due to high tech ban under sanctions. 69.178.195.28 (talk) 16:21, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- No. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is spammy. Along with his other edits, he should be the one blocked.Forbidden User (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'd like to see a citation for any claim that Russia's sanctions include a ban on editing Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:17, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
User Eleanor60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been running wild over every single Mustang, Shelby, or automotive film related page spamming it with poorly-written, non-encyclopedic, non-referenced comments about Eleanor - the star car from the film Gone in 60 Seconds - or the copyright battle pertaining to the 2000 remake and its creators.
I tried speaking with this editor to no avail as follows, trying to keep things kind. Unfortunately, I discovered their way of cooperating was to put all their disruptive edits right back up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eleanor60#Non-encyclopedic_edits_to_Eleanor_section
After thanking me for my concern in that dialouge, they went ahead and reverted my attempts to clean up the page and retain factual information in an encyclopedic manner.
I've supplied diffs and page revision logs below, as their edits often span more than one diff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eleanor_%28automobile%29&action=history
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carroll_Shelby&diff=618295282&oldid=617232221
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shelby_Mustang&diff=618466058&oldid=618294602
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shelby_Mustang&diff=618292578&oldid=618292319
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eleanor_%28automobile%29&diff=619350706&oldid=619314809
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eleanor_%28automobile%29&diff=619353558&oldid=619353375
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eleanor_%28automobile%29&diff=619043557&oldid=619043079
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ford_Mustang&diff=prev&oldid=618299242
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ford_Mustang&diff=618299764&oldid=618299242
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H._B._Halicki&diff=619044900&oldid=619044829
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H._B._Halicki&diff=618308707&oldid=618308453
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ford_Mustang_variants&diff=619486358&oldid=619383459
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ford_Mustang_variants&diff=next&oldid=619486952
I think that sums it up.
Apologies if any of these reports are not done correctly. It is the first time I've had to use the reporting feature. Lots of things to learn.
Cudak888 (talk) 00:22, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I will do a COIN report then. Thank you.
- User Eleanor60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) insists that they are right on the COI page, despite the fact that their "correct information" is never referenced and usually overrides identical information that is better written and referenced:
Conduct unbecoming of an administrator
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
At a nearly settle 3RR discussion between Eric Corbett and Bloodofox, admin Scottywong shows up to stir the shit pot and an old rivelry with Eric. The edit warring had ended a couple hours before, so there was no immediate issue when Scotty begins tailing Eric's comments, trying to provoke a response. Please note that Scotty has indef blocked Eric before [91] and this indef block was soon reverted to one month by another admin.
Scotty continued to add to the discussion, knowing full well that he was antagonizing a situation that was already under control, fortunately no one really took the bait. In this exchange, Scotty taunted Cassianto as being a new "pawn" of Eric's. He also made a personal attack against me with the comment "The corruption of your character is alarming sometimes, as is your lack of impartiality and sense of fairness." although I was there merely as a commenter. It is easier to just read the report. [92] I requested that he retract it. [93] and he declined. [94]
It is fine to disagree about facts, but when an admin comes to an admin board
- Dennis, perhaps you need to start taking some of your own advice. ‑Scottywong| confabulate _ 23:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Absolutely correct, and I said as much at AN3 before this section was started. Throwing out personal attacks against other editors purely due to ancient grudges is absolutely not acceptable from any editor, let alone an administrator; I am even more disturbed that Scottywong appears from his responses to Dennis at AN3 and his talk page to believe that this behaviour is completely acceptable. Black Kite (talk) 23:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I will accept any punishment that the community decides is necessary for the unimaginable atrocities I have committed today. I would like to point out, however, that Dennis was actually the first to inject personal attacks into the discussion. He kindly let me know that my lack of empathy is alarming to him, and I appreciated his honesty so much that I thought I would return the favor and let him know my honest thoughts about him. I considered his empathy comments deeply offensive, and since he didn't document them with diffs (which is apparently the rule now), I ask that any punishment applied to me also be applied to Dennis equally. ‑Scottywong| chat _ 23:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- When you say "block anyone that crosses 3RR without regard to why", that does lack empathy. The problem is you pushing Eric around like a bully, as you have the admin bit (and have blocked him before), trying to get him to go off on you so you could block again. You have ZERO interest in that case, you came to cause problems only. Then making personal attacks against someone who called you on it, questioning my character, when you were the one bullying. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you feel that way, but unfortunately that makes no sense. If I blocked Eric for anything, I would be immediately hauled off to Arbcom by 3 dozen editors for taking administrative action in violation of WP:INVOLVED. And Eric is well aware of that. So, your claims that I'm trying to be a bully, and I'm trying to bait Eric into doing something so that I can block him are completely farcical. And I don't believe that strict enforcement of clearly-defined rules equates to a lack of empathy. ‑Scottywong| prattle _23:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- As far as what is more empathetic or not is perfectly fine for a separate discussion, there is logic on both sides, but that isn't the big issue. It is at last arguable that blind block is unempathetic, even if you say you can present evidence to the contrary. As for "if you blocked Eric", I'll be honest Scotty, I don't know if you would block him, or ask someone else to block him, or just wait for it to happen, but you knew (or should have known) that pushing his buttons could have caused more disruption and caused him to tell you to piss off, etc. Look at your own comments Scotty, it looks exactly like you came in looking for a fight with Eric. NO good could ever come of you talking to him when it isn't needed. Yes, it looked like bullying because YOU have the power of the admin bit and buddies on IRC, and he has nothing except a reputation that makes him easy to block.
- I'm sorry you feel that way, but unfortunately that makes no sense. If I blocked Eric for anything, I would be immediately hauled off to Arbcom by 3 dozen editors for taking administrative action in violation of
- When you say "block anyone that crosses 3RR without regard to why", that does lack empathy. The problem is you pushing Eric around like a bully, as you have the admin bit (and have blocked him before), trying to get him to go off on you so you could block again. You have ZERO interest in that case, you came to cause problems only. Then making personal attacks against someone who called you on it, questioning my character, when you were the one bullying. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I will accept any punishment that the community decides is necessary for the unimaginable atrocities I have committed today. I would like to point out, however, that Dennis was actually the first to inject personal attacks into the discussion. He kindly let me know that my lack of empathy is alarming to him, and I appreciated his honesty so much that I thought I would return the favor and let him know my honest thoughts about him. I considered his empathy comments deeply offensive, and since he didn't document them with diffs (which is apparently the rule now), I ask that any punishment applied to me also be applied to Dennis equally. ‑Scottywong| chat _ 23:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- As for questioning my character, that is a separate issue. I didn't close the AN3, I haven't hid the fact that Eric and I get along on articles, I suggested closing by saying that neither had edited in two hours, and anyone that knows me knows I don't like to block two editors for EW if they aren't editing, that seems punitive. Eric or not. I'm NOT known to block on 4RR, I'm the guy that usually full protects the article. So yes, calling my character corrupt was way over the line. The fact that Eric and I get along is exactly why I WOULDN'T HAVE closed that discussion, even though WP:INVOLVED only covers negative interaction, not positive. It was an attack, and not the same as a merely blunt assessment. Regardless, your activity towards Eric was so massively over the line, it makes ALL admin look bad. THAT is a problem. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER00:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Buddies on IRC? You are making one assumption of bad faith after another. I had no intention of blocking Eric, asking someone else to block him, or logging in to IRC (which I never use) to start a conspiracy against Eric. I was merely commenting that I thought this 3RR offense should result in a block, just as you were commenting that you thought it shouldn't result in a block. All the rest of your assumptions about me and my intentions should have been checked at the door, and they were probably a result of your aforementioned positive INVOLVEments with Eric. You really get overly emotional when it comes to defending him; perhaps you should refrain from commenting on complaint threads about him. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 01:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- As for questioning my character, that is a separate issue. I didn't close the AN3, I haven't hid the fact that Eric and I get along on articles, I suggested closing by saying that neither had edited in two hours, and anyone that knows me knows I don't like to block two editors for EW if they aren't editing, that seems punitive. Eric or not. I'm NOT known to block on 4RR, I'm the guy that usually full protects the article. So yes, calling my character corrupt was way over the line. The fact that Eric and I get along is exactly why I WOULDN'T HAVE closed that discussion, even though
- (edit conflict)It's okay because the other party shot first? Two wrongs don't make a right (although three rights do make a left). Calling another editor corrupt is pretty uncool no matter what the circumstances are. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- My empathy comment was directly in response to his, there was no diff. This is a weak attempt to deflect attention from everything he said on the page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, if you re-read the discussion, you'd see that your first comment to me was to characterize my (rather civil and level-headed) comments as soapboxing and drama-mongering. You then go on to tell me that my lack of empathy is alarming to me. Only then did I decide to return the favor by giving you some honest criticism. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 23:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The easiest thing is to close this, close the EW page, hat them and move on. Discussion is ongoing on the kelpie talk page and folks can just ignore the ad hominems and move on. I'd hat both these myself right now but have been peripherally involved at editing the kelpie page. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sure there is some wisdom in that Casliber, but this is pretty far over the line, and ignoring sends the message that it is ok for an admin to torment editors you've blocked before, and then insult someone who stands up to them. This isn't exactly the first time we've seen this. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so let me get this straight. There is an editor who you perceive to be uncivil, who is casting insults and attacks, being inflammatory and argumentative, and you see this as a long term pattern of behavior. Hmm. Who else can you think of who fits that bill, and why are you so enraged by one instance of this behavior and so forgiving of another? ‑Scottywong| babble _ 00:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time we've seen admin torment editors. We can't just do nothing every time we see it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, ok. Well, I'm sorry for "tormenting" Eric about reverting the same page 4 times in a day. I'll be sure to ignore such trivial policies in the future. ‑Scottywong| converse _ 00:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time we've seen admin torment editors. We can't just do nothing every time we see it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so let me get this straight. There is an editor who you perceive to be uncivil, who is casting insults and attacks, being inflammatory and argumentative, and you see this as a long term pattern of behavior. Hmm. Who else can you think of who fits that bill, and why are you so enraged by one instance of this behavior and so forgiving of another? ‑Scottywong| babble _ 00:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sure there is some wisdom in that Casliber, but this is pretty far over the line, and ignoring sends the message that it is ok for an admin to torment editors you've blocked before, and then insult someone who stands up to them. This isn't exactly the first time we've seen this. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The easiest thing is to close this, close the EW page, hat them and move on. Discussion is ongoing on the kelpie talk page and folks can just ignore the ad hominems and move on. I'd hat both these myself right now but have been peripherally involved at editing the kelpie page. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, if you re-read the discussion, you'd see that your first comment to me was to characterize my (rather civil and level-headed) comments as soapboxing and drama-mongering. You then go on to tell me that my lack of empathy is alarming to me. Only then did I decide to return the favor by giving you some honest criticism. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 23:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- My empathy comment was directly in response to his, there was no diff. This is a weak attempt to deflect attention from everything he said on the page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok you 2, what the feck is going on here. Two Wikipedia editors that I appreciate suddenly squaring off on ANI...fan-fricking-tastic. Scotty, considering your history with Eric, you had no fricking business on the AN3 report - you were simply inflaming something that would have been better off being cooled off. Well-fricking-done - THAT was the part that was really conduct unbecoming. The job of an admin is NOT to pour gasoline on a freicking fire. Dennis was indeed right to call you on it. That never should have HAD TO EVER HAPPEN. What the feck were you thinking? the panda ₯’ 23:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Panda, I believe I have a right to express my opinion at AN3. My intention wasn't to inflame anything, it was to express my opinion that clear violations of 3RR should result in a block. It was not until my opinion was derided as "soapboxing" and "drama-mongering" by Dennis, and it was not until I was told I have an alarming lack of empathy by Dennis that I decided to let Dennis know what I thought of his comments. I am fully aware that I am WP:INVOLVED with Eric in just about everything, and had no intention of acting as an administrator with respect to this AN3 complaint. ‑Scottywong| babble _00:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Panda, I believe I have a right to express my opinion at AN3. My intention wasn't to inflame anything, it was to express my opinion that clear violations of 3RR should result in a block. It was not until my opinion was derided as "soapboxing" and "drama-mongering" by Dennis, and it was not until I was told I have an alarming lack of empathy by Dennis that I decided to let Dennis know what I thought of his comments. I am fully aware that I am
- Well, other than the fact that we have no "rights" to speak of, we always have to temper whatever right we have with common sense. You personally know that your post there would take on a life of it's own ... and look, it did. You know better than that for crying out loud. This is absolutely disappointing and disgraceful the panda ₯’ 00:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Then if you know you are INVOLVED, why bother to speak out there at all, except to get in a few shots against Eric? You couldn't have actioned it according to your own methodology, right? Was it just to opine how all editors that break 4RR should be blocked? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, actually, all I was doing was putting forth my opinion as an editor. I don't believe being INVOLVED with an editor prohibits you from expressing your opinion of how a complaint about their behavior should be handled, does it? Just because I've had arguments with Eric in the past (and who hasn't?) doesn't mean that my comments are automatically soapboxing or drama-mongering, and I do not appreciate your comments at the AN3 thread to that effect. In fact, I believe it was your comments that inflamed the discussion in the first place. If you had put away your assumptions of bad faith and treated my comments respectfully, we wouldn't be here right now. Perhaps you should refrain from vehemently defending Eric to prevent him from being blocked, if you can't do it without immediately deriding anyone who disagrees with you. ‑Scottywong| speak _ 00:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Bullshit. Your first comment was "I think we can all assume that Eric has been around long enough to know about 3RR; complaining that he didn't get a formal warning is quite tenuous." and you could plainly see that Eric didn't make any such complaint. You went directly after Eric, like a laser beam. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry that you misunderstood my first comment, which was actually directed at the editors that were saying Eric shouldn't be blocked because he wasn't properly warned, not at Eric himself (which I made clear in subsequent comments). ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 01:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That stretches credibility Scotty, particularly since that last half of that post included " Since Eric clearly violated 3RR, I believe he should receive a 24-hour block, like any other normal editor would. Of course, we all know that won't happen, because of Eric's privileged status on this site. And therefore, we will perpetuate Eric's belief that he is exempt from most rules (even the ones that are clear-cut and strictly defined)" . They are all there, I can keep using your own words to show you were focused on harassing Eric, but it seems pretty obvious why you were there. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence of harassment. I believe that everything I said in that statement is arguably accurate. And honestly, that statement is less directed at Eric than it is at the editors, yourself included, who enable Eric's behavior. ‑Scottywong| confer _ 01:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- And the fact that you don't see any problem with how you acted, how you treated others is exactly why we are here. It is conduct unbecoming of an admin. It is harassment and personal attacks. The community has the choice of either saying this is acceptable behavior, or saying it is not. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I believe that your conduct is unbecoming of an administrator. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And if you think the community gives a shit about your whinging here, you are mistaken. ‑Scottywong| babble _ 01:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- And the fact that you don't see any problem with how you acted, how you treated others is exactly why we are here. It is conduct unbecoming of an admin. It is harassment and personal attacks. The community has the choice of either saying this is acceptable behavior, or saying it is not. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence of harassment. I believe that everything I said in that statement is arguably accurate. And honestly, that statement is less directed at Eric than it is at the editors, yourself included, who enable Eric's behavior. ‑Scottywong| confer _ 01:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That stretches credibility Scotty, particularly since that last half of that post included " Since Eric clearly violated 3RR, I believe he should receive a 24-hour block, like any other normal editor would. Of course, we all know that won't happen, because of Eric's privileged status on this site. And therefore, we will perpetuate Eric's belief that he is exempt from most rules (even the ones that are clear-cut and strictly defined)" . They are all there, I can keep using your own words to show you were focused on harassing Eric, but it seems pretty obvious why you were there. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, actually, all I was doing was putting forth my opinion as an editor. I don't believe being INVOLVED with an editor prohibits you from expressing your opinion of how a complaint about their behavior should be handled, does it? Just because I've had arguments with Eric in the past (and who hasn't?) doesn't mean that my comments are automatically soapboxing or drama-mongering, and I do not appreciate your comments at the AN3 thread to that effect. In fact, I believe it was your comments that inflamed the discussion in the first place. If you had put away your assumptions of bad faith and treated my comments respectfully, we wouldn't be here right now. Perhaps you should refrain from vehemently defending Eric to prevent him from being blocked, if you can't do it without immediately deriding anyone who disagrees with you. ‑Scottywong| speak _ 00:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Then if you know you are INVOLVED, why bother to speak out there at all, except to get in a few shots against Eric? You couldn't have actioned it according to your own methodology, right? Was it just to opine how all editors that break 4RR should be blocked? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Frankly both Scotty and Dennis come off sounding like children in this discussion. Why not just move on and stop sniping at each other?
- Forget the attack against me, you think badgering an editor he had previously blocked was ok? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I see an admin commenting on policy, I see prior admin involvement. Previously blocking a user does not make you an "involved admin" so if there is something else I am missing point it out. Your immediate response to his presence on the noticeboard was really rather confrontational.
It has mostly been you two going back and forth at each other not the initial incident that is being disruptive.
- I probably was a little defensive after his first comment, which was a snide remark that started the badgering. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by a user that couldn't give a flaming toss, but just happened to stumble across this - I would like to ask what you all hope to achieve with this? Drama like this (in my experience at least) has two possible outcomes: You keep arguing on and on until words are said that causes users to rage quit the site or see most users involved in such a dispute face some sort of consequence, usually both sides of the debate. The second outcome involves apologizing to each other (even if you think you are in the right) and moving on. Walking away from this, you can't change anything that happened. All you are doing is bringing up stuff that has already happened and trying to gain some sort of moral highground, which is a pretty lame tactic in my opinion. ~Frosty (Talk page) 00:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh FFS- Dennis, there is nothing wrong with saying an editor breaking 3RR should be blocked for it. Scotty, you are becoming ultra-defensive and belligerent. Both of you, knock it off and go edit the encyclopedia. This is too stupid for words. Reyk YO! 01:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- How is it Panda and Blackkite see it so differently? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Probably because anything involving Eric gets all kinds of opinions on both sides. I think I'm practically unique in that I am a 9 year veteran with lots of edits, who nevertheless has had nothing much to do with Eric at all, and I have no opinion regarding this particular 3RR dispute. But I do recognize that Scotty can legitimately think someone should be blocked for breaking 3RR, even when that person is Eric. Reyk YO! 01:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I completely agree that is a valid point of view. That isn't the issue. It was calling other editors pawn, the attack, claims, etc. Given their history, `it looks a lot like badgering to me. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Probably because anything involving Eric gets all kinds of opinions on both sides. I think I'm practically unique in that I am a 9 year veteran with lots of edits, who nevertheless has had nothing much to do with Eric at all, and I have no opinion regarding this particular 3RR dispute. But I do recognize that Scotty can legitimately think someone should be blocked for breaking 3RR, even when that person is Eric. Reyk YO! 01:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- How is it Panda and Blackkite see it so differently? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Both of you need to stop. You are acting no better. This matter seems resolved, I don't think any 3RR block is coming. The problem that remains is one of sniping at each other and the solution is to stop.
I'm ok with closing this thread immediately. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 02:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Of course you are, you badgered an editor in what looks like an attempt to set him off, you made personal attacks, and a few are willing to sweep it under the rug. You should be giddy. The community is none the richer from it. I guess it is ok to badger the editor if they are unpopular, because that is what it looks like. A few have already spoken out against you here, but their voices are drowned out. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So, in summary, this drama thread predictably failed to produce any results, and now you're angry about it. You've become somewhat megalomaniacal, Dennis, and the power of adminship seems to have gone to your head. You think you can come to a discussion and casually deride my comments as soapboxing and drama-mongering, and comment on my lack of empathy, etc.? Other editors might take that kind of shit from you, but I certainly won't. Remember that you're no better than anyone else on WP, admin or not. Your judgment is no less flawed than anyone else. Next time you find yourself typing out a negative opinion of my personality (or anyone else's, for that matter), I'd advise thinking twice before posting it, and ensuring that your opinion is not based on any assumptions of bad faith, as your opinions throughout this thread have been rife with them. I'm still in favor of closing this thread, and would suggest that Dennis and I strive to avoid each other in the near future. I will certainly make an attempt to be more civil in future conversations with Dennis, as long as he doesn't come out swinging with insults and disrespect like he did in this case. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 15:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Of course you are, you badgered an editor in what looks like an attempt to set him off, you made personal attacks, and a few are willing to sweep it under the rug. You should be giddy. The community is none the richer from it. I guess it is ok to badger the editor if they are unpopular, because that is what it looks like. A few have already spoken out against you here, but their voices are drowned out. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Question for Scottywong - You made a reference to what you perceive as "Eric's privileged status on this site" and this may be the root cause of the dispute. Are you able to substantiate your claim with strong evidence and concrete examples? -A1candidate (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but it would not be even remotely worth the time and effort required to do so. So, I decline your request. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 02:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's not a "yes", it's "no", but understandably so in your case. Eric Corbett 04:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The question was whether I am able to substantiate my claims, and the answer to that question is yes. The answer to the question of whether I will substantiate my claims is no. Anyone with any knowledge of your history would not argue that you frequently push the boundaries of the rules (to be generous), and that you are simultaneously the recipient of immunity from consequences from some and hypersensitivity to your transgressions from others. Both of these polarizing effects are natural reactions to each other; asking which one came first is like asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. But, it is undeniable that both of these extremes exist as reactions to your behavior, and providing evidence of either would not be difficult. ‑Scottywong| converse _ 05:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's not a "yes", it's "no", but understandably so in your case. Eric Corbett 04:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but it would not be even remotely worth the time and effort required to do so. So, I decline your request. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 02:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment. While I'm not taking sides, I do think that the close should -- even if no action is taken (which seems likely from the above) -- touch on the issues of: a) was there a violation of wp:admin here in terms of a personal attack, and b) does the fact that a sysop has blocked an editor mean that he should not comment at AN3 in the manner we see here. The one point that I will make is that it would appear that an apology would have prevented this entire drama. But apparently the thought is that the asserted violations of wp:admin are baseless, so no apology is in order, and if that is (or is not) the case I guess we should clarify it. --Epeefleche (talk) 18:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Eric Corbett blocked for personal attack
It may or may not be relevant to this discussion that I have just blocked Eric Corbett (talk · contribs) for 72 hours for an apparently unrelated personal attack via edit summary [95]. The substantive comment made was uncivil, but the edit summary was a direct personal attack.
The length of the block reflects the number of previous blocks which Eric has received for similar misconduct (see block log). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-admin unclose) You can't just close this at "Eric blocked, nothing more allowed to be said" — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Does an edit summary of "were you hiding behind the door when God handed out brains?" justify a 72-hour block? Let the mob decide, and let the games begin... — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- For my part, the question and answer were...
- Q: " So, it's your contention that in the course of a conversation, which includes a female, that the deliberate use of the word cunt is not a personal attack because it was not really directed at her?" - @Saffron Blaze:
- A: "Surely that would be the conclusion of any rational editor, male or female, would it not?" - @Eric Corbett:
- Q: " So, it's your contention that in the course of a conversation, which includes a female, that the deliberate use of the word cunt is not a personal attack because it was not really directed at her?" - @
- Anyone see anything other than a stupid question and a bleedin-obvious answer there? — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Allow me to apologise for that NAC screw up, I left the edit window open for too long and when I completed the edit, it somehow didn't edit conflict with all the intervening edits and saved around the whole discussion after BHG's block. Blackmane (talk) 12:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I see a slight problem as BHG seems to have been WP:INVOLVED having started the conversation at UT:Jimbo. I am also struggling to see any sort of warning towards Eric. I would encourage any uninvolved admin to reverse this block and I encourage User:BrownHairedGirl to explain her actions here, and to consider handing in her admin permissions if she is unable to use them properly, as seems on first glance to be the case. --John (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- John, I did not start the conversation. If you are unwilling to take a second glace before you falsely accuse another admin, then your admin permissions are the ones which should go. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- John, I take no position as to the propriety of the block itself and whether an administrator should reverse it as being placed outside the boundaries of administrator discretion or community consensus. With that said, I do not believe that BHG has violated the Wikipedia:Administrators#Involved admins policy in this situation. NW (Talk) 13:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC) Clarify at 13:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC): The reason I believe this is that BHG's statements on that talk page were all a reflection of how she believed that Wikipedia's code of conduct should be enforced, which I believe falls into the emphasized portion of the policy highlighted: "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'." NW (Talk) 13:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, NW. For the record, I am not aware of having had any prior involvement with Eric Corbett. nor any prior involvement in the disagreement between those editors. The sole grounds for John's accusation appear to be that I had posted on the same page[96] to advocate foundation-level involvement in upholding policy.
I hope that John will take time to either withdraw his allegation, or to clarify why he thinks that a post to a discussion about policy disqualifies an admin from upholding that policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)- User NW, thank you for that. User BHG, you were in a heated argument with another user and you then blocked them without a warning. True, or false? --John (talk) 13:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- False, John. As previously requested, please look at the page history rather than making false allegations on the basis of a first glance. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- User NW, thank you for that. User BHG, you were in a heated argument with another user and you then blocked them without a warning. True, or false? --John (talk) 13:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, NW. For the record, I am not aware of having had any prior involvement with Eric Corbett. nor any prior involvement in the disagreement between those editors. The sole grounds for John's accusation appear to be that I had posted on the same page[96] to advocate foundation-level involvement in upholding policy.
- And none of this has anything to do with the fact that this started with Scotty stumbling into AN3, looking to piss off Eric and set him off, the purpose of this filing. The clear lesson here is that it is ok for an admin to badger an editor as long as that editor is unpopular. And sorry, BHG, but I also disagree with the block as I see nothing incivil in his comment, just an obvious answer, and granted, a rude summary. We shouldn't block for singular instances like that. So far, all the discussion about sexism at Wikipedia has done has divided us, even though we all agree in principle that sexism is a bad thing. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, Dennis, it's all my fault, I think we should unblock Eric and block me instead. So, just to clarify: me telling you that I believe your character has become corrupted is a personal attack of the highest order, necessitating an ANI thread and my immediate desysopping. Then, a few hours later, Eric asks someone if they were hiding behind the door when God gave out brains, and that's just salty old Eric up to his old games again, no harm no foul, right? As an admin, I believe that you need to strive to be fairer in your judgments of peoples' actions, regardless of whether or not you happen to like or dislike the person whose actions you are judging. ‑Scottywong| soliloquize _ 14:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dennis, are you really sure that you see nothing uncivil about a complaint relating to misogynist language getting a response which gratuitously challenges an editor's rationality, even when accompanied by an extraordinarily abusive edit summary which makes it unambiguously clear that it was intended as a pure personal attack on that editor?
Even when that editor has a long record of blocks and warnings for personal attacks? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)- You're still arguing from your opinion that any use of the word is misogynist, something that you've just accused me of on Jimbo's talk page, and now you're conflating that issue with Eric's somewhat rude edit summary in an attempt to justify your block. Black Kite (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Black Kite, I did not Eric block because of the misogynist language. I blocked Eric because his response to a complaint about it it consisted of an accusation of irrationality, reinforced by a blatant the personal attack in the edit summary. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I see him say "Surely that would be the conclusion of any rational editor, male or female, would it not?". Are we assuming that since he was replying to a woman, it was meant differently than if he were saying it to a male? He seems to be saying that it matters exactly the same, male or female. I'm lost, is "rational editor" an insult to a woman but not a man? I think you are reading too much into it. Eric has lots of history with rudeness, but none with sexism. He is an equal opportunity offender, so I don't see any lines to read between here. I don't doubt you meant well, but I do think the block was a knee jerk reaction. There is a lot of tension right now about sexism floating about, but Eric probably has more collaboration with women than any other editor I know. I personally think you misread him. I'm not going to go revert myself, but I wish you would reflect on this and consider it. The summery was rude, but I've done worse, I bet you have, too. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- You're still arguing from your opinion that any use of the word is misogynist, something that you've just accused me of on Jimbo's talk page, and now you're conflating that issue with Eric's somewhat rude edit summary in an attempt to justify your block. Black Kite (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with Dennnis on all counts - any admin got the courage to unblock (as I would, and have done in the past)? — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- PS: There is no such thing as misogynist language outside of context and intent, and if you, BHG, think there is, then you should not be the one to administer admin sanctions on such issues. You have acted based on your own subjective response, and I would say that's a bad admin action - I would reject calls for your recall, but I think you should revert your block and wait for community consensus — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- PPS: Considering BHG's expressed personal feelings, she is absolutely not the right person to be issuing a block here - but there is time to put things right before a request for admin sanctions is needed. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No it hasn't got anything to do with the AN3 thread. Cuntgate kicked off quite separately from threads at AN (and multiple other venues) about sexism, harrassment etc. BHG tacked this thread on to an existing one about EC, but actually no connection, other than EC being the common factor. DeCausa (talk) 13:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- (non involved opinion) This is a great example of the problem we have here over the past few years. An editor that has an obvious history with maturity and basic respect problems is blocked and admins fight over it on a technicality. What has happened is Admins have lost their ability to preform minor blocks to even the worst kind of editor because of backlashes that may happen. The community at large should be the focus - not saving ones ass from scrutiny because an editor like this is clearly a detriment to the project. Our admin system is failing the average editor. -- Moxy (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you're going to be blocking Scottywong for his behavior also? I found that sort of baiting/badgering to be more offensive than anything I've ever seen Eric do ... (and for the record, I don't subscribe to the "worst kind of editor" description for Eric ... nor do I believe he's "clearly a detriment to the project". I'd call those PAs but... I'm not an admin so I guess I'm not allowed to say things like that about others) Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Scottywong has a history of low-level passive-aggressive incivility, and one of my biggest regrets is that I supported his RfA — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- And you know he is laughing his ass off over all this distraction, and has already moved on. Eric seems to the be the shiny thing that distracts the community as a whole. Meanwhile, this kind of admin aggression will continue. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Scottywong has a history of low-level passive-aggressive incivility, and one of my biggest regrets is that I supported his RfA — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you're going to be blocking Scottywong for his behavior also? I found that sort of baiting/badgering to be more offensive than anything I've ever seen Eric do ... (and for the record, I don't subscribe to the "worst kind of editor" description for Eric ... nor do I believe he's "clearly a detriment to the project". I'd call those PAs but... I'm not an admin so I guess I'm not allowed to say things like that about others) Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Full support for the block. A clear personal attack from a user with a long block log. Gamaliel (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Stupid block, misuse of admin tools to advance a personal campaign. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
-
- Have you been on Jimbo's talkpage recently?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is BULLSHIT. As there is no god. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Stupid block! - IMHO Eric's known for being outspoken but at the end of the day he's a great editor and unless he's is wound up -He usually hushes up and gets on with it, I don't condone his language but IMHO Eric's never going to change and we either lose him or put up with it and I'm certainly with the latter! ... You wonder why we lose so many great editors here.... –Davey2010 • (talk) 13:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Got it backwards - we loose way more editors over all because of people like this. Best we loose editors like this over loosing many many other editors that can edit just as well. We loos ediotrs becaus so many are not willing to follow basic conduct expectations - not the other way around. -- Moxy (talk) 13:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Davey2010: So writing content means people can be as rude as they like and get away with it? In that case, I'll go write a few articles and then drop some well chosen insults wherever I please. What price the n-word? </sarcasm>
- But seriously, if a user contributes to an atmosphere of incivility, that drives other productive editors away. In any case, it's stupid to excuse any editor from the requirement of decency. BethNaught (talk) 14:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah there's pros and cons to my statement, I don't believe anyone should be rude simply because they're a great editor, But as I said Eric won't change and blocking him achieves nothing IMHO –Davey2010 • (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So the community should do nothing because he wont change. Again all backwards if he not willing to follow basic conduct norms that are found in normal society then the community should step up..not let him run wild because he wont change. If his not willing to conform to normal everyday social norms then its time he goes. -- Moxy (talk) 14:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- What it achieves is to demonstrate that incivility is unacceptable and to remove a cause of an unpleasant atmosphere here. By your argument people can exempt themselves from all need for respectable behaviour by being sufficiently obstinate. BethNaught (talk) 14:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah there's pros and cons to my statement, I don't believe anyone should be rude simply because they're a great editor, But as I said Eric won't change and blocking him achieves nothing IMHO –Davey2010 • (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- In as much as his enablers like to point out the difference between UK and US slang as a defence, I have very little doubt that Eric so frequently chooses to refer to people as "cunts" (directly or in general) specifically because it pisses people off. He's basically trolling, and got all the drama he desired. Resolute 13:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No more than all the others have got the drama they desire, by allowing themselves to get riled up by it. It's a choice. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Did he call someone a cunt recently? I found 13 hits for "cunt" on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales, but none of these occurrences were posted by Eric. If I understood correctly, he was blocked for writing "were you hiding behind the door when God handed out brains?" in an edit summary. Maybe I missed something, in which case I'd like to see a diff. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:11, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The entire thread on Jimbo's talk page centres around Eric's continuing usage of the term to bait people, and the comment he was blocked for was meant to act in defence of this. Resolute 14:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, the entire thread is about a singular recent use that was aimed at no one. And the block was because he said usage that isn't directed at someone isn't a personal attack, and left a rude summary in the mix. That is the nut of it. All the hubbub is more disruptive than the singular use of a very ugly word. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and Eric does not have an extremely long history of incivility and personal attacks, and we should not consider that history whatsoever when looking at this single, isolated incident. ‑Scottywong| gossip _ 14:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, the entire thread is about a singular recent use that was aimed at no one. And the block was because he said usage that isn't directed at someone isn't a personal attack, and left a rude summary in the mix. That is the nut of it. All the hubbub is more disruptive than the singular use of a very ugly word. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The entire thread on Jimbo's talk page centres around Eric's continuing usage of the term to bait people, and the comment he was blocked for was meant to act in defence of this. Resolute 14:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Jimbo has intervened at Panda's talk page, which renders the closing of this section inappropriate — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sigh - I'm no fan of Eric's, or incivility in general, but a block for this edit summary is way over-the-top! GiantSnowman 18:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The block was within discretion - the comment appears to be a personal attack - and appears to be consistent with prior used manner of personally focused commenting. The admin was uninvolved. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- See I would see this post as BHG taking a position on this. Had I made a statement and taken a position like that, I would not have blocked an editor involved in the debate. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's not an involved position on NPA and "you hiding behind the door when God handed out brains?" Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- See I would see this post as BHG taking a position on this. Had I made a statement and taken a position like that, I would not have blocked an editor involved in the debate. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock - BHG has it right, and I agree with everything she has said and her action taken. The unblock is deeply flawed and deserves community scrutiny. As for the subject of this latest drama-festival, he will continue his offensive insults until the community shows him the door. The only question is how much longer that will take. Jusdafax 19:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock BHG is right. The block should NOT have been reversed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock - The discussion was closed prematurely and there was no consensus to unblock. Blocks are supposed to deter undesirable conduct, but how can they if they are undone so quickly? The fact that this type of conduct from Eric Corbett has occurred so many times before would seem to support harsher sanctions, not this recurrent "catch and release" program.- MrX 22:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock Dennis is normally pretty level headed, but seems to have a blind-spot when it comes to EC's constant and repeated disruptive conduct. Given the fact that Dennis has repeated defended EC's conduct, he should be seen as WP:INVOLVED and should not have made the unblock. Dennis, can you please self-revert? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock This has nothing to do with Dennis. I think Eric deserved this 3RR block. I saw it pop up, I looked and the report was valid. Eric is about the last editor to be "roped into a revert" he knew very well what he was doing.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good block, bad unblock Eric violated 3RR. Block is deserved. That Eric refuses to alter his behavior, as obliquely noted by Jimbo Wales, makes an indef the best option. Dennis and DP should hand in their tools, given they are neither prepared to nor have demonstrated the ability to act in the best interest of the community where Eric is concerned, allowing him and his apologists to create a hostile environment for other editors, and to create a sexually hostile for women in particular. I don't care how much content Eric, Giano and their cronies create. It comes at too high a cost to other editors. --Drmargi (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Where do we draw the line between incivility and personal insults?
Disclosure: I have no personal interactions with any of the involved parties prior to this incident.
On 29 July, 2014, User:Eric Corbett posted a series of extremely uncivil edit summaries and comments that were clearly meant to intimidate and provoke a response:
- First, he threatened to throw verbal abuse on Drmies' talk page, but didn't get blocked.
- Next, he directly resorted to name-calling on Drmies' talk page, but didn't get blocked.
- Finally, he misused the edit summary to insult an editor's intelligence on Jimmy Wales's talk apge and he still remains unblocked as of now.
I am shocked, appalled, and absolutely disgusted by the majority of administrators on Wikipedia who failed to take action and even condoned such a blatant attempt to provoke and intimidate. I strongly recommend the following actions to be taken:
1. Reversal of DangerousPanda's unblocking of Eric Corbett
I disagree with DangerousPanda's loose interpretation of
2. Review of Dennis Brown's comments
After Scottywong responded to the 3RR report, which is what I expect administrators to do, DB responded with vulgarities such as "we are going to fucking spank you and document that spanking in your spank block log". After failing to provoke a reaction, DB continued to harass SW by going to his talk page and telling him to "put up or shut up. This sort of conduct is extremely unbecoming of an administrator and it is certainly not what I expect of any editor, including those without administrator privileges.
Although I have never had any personal interactions with DB, I've always held him in high regard, but I think he may have simply lost the plot here.
3. Re-consider the establishement of a cvility board
This was previously discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard#Where_and_how_to_request_a_Civility_board, but the proposal was knocked down by some of the same admins and editors involved in this ANI report.
I want to emphasize again that I have no personal interactions with any of them prior to this discussion. The only reason why I'm posting it here is that I edit controversial articles regularly and I have been subjected to the same sort of personal attacks and accusations that I see here. Althought the attacks came from a different group of editors, the tone was similar to that used by Eric Corbett to provocate and intimidate.
Either we enforce
-A1candidate (talk) 16:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- If anyone reblocked Eric now, they would be 17:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not posting to the above proposals but rather just talking down here. I think that our policies are very clear on what is a personal attack and when they need a block. The block in this case was valid.
The unblock shows either a lack of understanding of WP:WPA or simply an opinion that it should not be enforced. Well my position is that if a policy enjoys concsensus then admins should not be reversing actions taken by that policy.
The community widely agrees that personal attacks have no place here. Yet I have seen many cases where an established editor is protected from enforcment by admins who will simply unblock.
The block should be reintated. Dennis' actions certainly do need examination. Most importantly blocking and unblocking based on
Don't think someone should be blocked for personal attack? Fine nobody is making you block anyone. But reversing a valid action taken by an admin following consensus based policy because you don't agree is not admin behavior.
As one of those tangentially mentioned above, I had to guffaw when I saw EC post the following, "You are quite obviously entirely bereft of any insight into your own behaviour, a not uncommon condition here."[97] I assumed it was meant ironically, but now I'm not sure. --Pete (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Don't want to join the circus show here but how on earth is that a personal attack???♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Dr. Blofeld - It is a childish and immature case of name calling ("sunshine"). -A1candidate (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Sunshine" is a term of racial abuse. I declined to be offended, even if it was meant as such. --Pete (talk) 17:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No it isn't in any way whatsoever in England. I'm guessing you're both American. It's pretty common in speech from older guys in England when speaking to younger ones, particularly in the north to use "sunshine" or "sunny Jim" when addressing somebody, usually a younger person in a slightly heated way. Scottish Fat Bastard used it in Austin Powers, "Look 'ere sunny Jim, I ate a baby". It's as mild as mild can be. If that's a personal attack then everything could be interpreted as a personal attack. That Eric would have even thought about racially abusing somebody is preposterous. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a patronising put-down but it's got nothing to do with racial abuse. DeCausa (talk) 21:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'd always assumed they were embellishments of "son", along with "sonny" and "sonny boy" and as you say, used by older guys speaking to younger ones. NebY (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- He explicitly insulted an editor's intelligence when he asked "were you hiding behind the door when God handed out brains". I'm sure that is understood to be a degrading personal insult in most parts of the world. -A1candidate (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- We might seek clarification from EC on what exactly he meant. I doubt it was positive. As I say, I took no offence. It is part of a pattern of behaviour we see far too often. Disagree with someone and instead of addressing the substance, attack the person: by abusing them, demeaning them, threatening them, whaever it takes to get them out of the way. And then deny what is quite obvious to their targets, Is a lack of self knowledge a requirement to be a productive editor on every other subject? It sometimes seems that way. --Pete (talk) 23:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No it isn't in any way whatsoever in England. I'm guessing you're both American. It's pretty common in speech from older guys in England when speaking to younger ones, particularly in the north to use "sunshine" or "sunny Jim" when addressing somebody, usually a younger person in a slightly heated way. Scottish Fat Bastard used it in Austin Powers, "Look 'ere sunny Jim, I ate a baby". It's as mild as mild can be. If that's a personal attack then everything could be interpreted as a personal attack. That Eric would have even thought about racially abusing somebody is preposterous. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The personal attack is here[98]. The other diffs show that this was not an isolated incident but was part of a pattern of incivility.
- The premise of this "proposal" is completely faulty. The diffs to my talk page are not evidence of anything--they are responses to a. someone I blocked before who came by to troll and b. some other one I blocked before who, in my opinion, was stirring the shit pot and, I see, still is. Mr.X--"enablers"? That's something I've heard before: it's a personal attack. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- So it's okay to throw personal attacks at blocked editors? And it's okay to respond to trolls by trolling them back? -A1candidate (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Being intentionally offensive is a violation of WP:NPA and is disruptive. I doubt I'm alone in preferring Wikipedia be a more polite place than it is now. When we see editors persistently abuse others, they should be directed towards a more community-minded attitude. Saying "Oh, he's always been like that! It's just his way." just makes it worse. IMHO. --Pete (talk) 17:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Being intentionally offensive is a violation of
- The premises of A1candidate's second point "
After Scottywong responded to the 3RR report, which is what I expect administrators to do, DB responded with vulgarities by telling SW that "we are going to fucking spank you and document that spanking in your spank block log"
" are respectively misguided and a serious misreading or misrepresentation. First, we do not expect all the 602 active admins to respond to a 3RR report and four had already responded when SW joined in. Second, DB did not tell SW "we are going to fucking spank you"; he wrote "When you take a hardass approach to problems, you just reinforce the idea that they don't matter, they are nothing but little text generators, and if they punch up the wrong column too many times, we are going to fucking spank you and document that spanking in your spank block log. No thanks.
"[99] A1candidate, please could you strike your statement and reconsider the arguments and proposals you have based on it? NebY (talk) 19:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, because there is no rule that prohibits an admin from responding to a 3RR report, but WP:NPA do prohibit provocative comments (even if not directed at SW explicitly) such as "we are going to fucking spank you", regardless of whether DB is an average editor or an all-powerful administrator. -A1candidate (talk) 19:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- You do realise DB was saying to SW that "we are going to fucking spank you" is not a constructive attitude? NebY (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and how is that not a violation of WP:VULGAR? The expletive and "spanking" did not come from SW, but DB. He could have made his point nicely without resorting to uncivil language. -A1candidate (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- It takes more than avoiding words like "fuck" or "spank" to make one's point nicely - otherwise "
I am shocked, appalled, and absolutely disgusted
", "I strongly recommend the following actions to be taken: ... Review of Dennis Brown's comments
" and "I think he may have simply lost the plot
" would seem persuasive, not aggressive and punitive. NebY (talk) 20:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)- I think A1candidate's point is that Dennis didn't have to make his point in such a crass manner. The "we are going to fucking spank you" in quotes is a kind of impersonation of me (or, at least, of Dennis' perception of me). In other words, Dennis is saying that he believes that I derive happiness from punishing users for various things. He imagines that I troll around Wikipedia looking for people who are doing something wrong, and threatening that "I'm going to fucking spank you" and add them to my "spank list", like a big game hunter hanging animal heads on his wall as trophies. I could care less about the vulgarity; the comment itself is insulting enough. Especially coming from someone who has blocked 1,730 users (compared to my 109 blocks, despite Dennis and I becoming admins at practically the same time). ‑Scottywong| yak _ 21:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- It takes more than avoiding words like "fuck" or "spank" to make one's point nicely - otherwise "
- Yes, and how is that not a violation of
- You do realise DB was saying to SW that "we are going to fucking spank you" is not a constructive attitude? NebY (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, because there is no rule that prohibits an admin from responding to a 3RR report, but
I'm going to re-post what I said on my talkpage moments ago: Wow, the absolute ironic part of this discussion is that I'm supposedly well-known across the interweb for having one of the strictest interpretation of
- The problem is that you assumed there was consensus, but there was none. -A1candidate (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverse the unblock. Block Dennis Brown. Create an RfC/U on DangerousPanda. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverse the unblock. Leave Dennis alone.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverse the unblock. Dennis and DP should hand in their tools, as unable or unwilling to follow ) 23:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Jimbo
Jimbo has personally intervened at User talk:DangerousPanda#Unfortunate (which seems like a personally intimidating approach to me when he could have commented here and taken part in the actual community discussion), and that makes this discussion very much not closed. Should Jimbo be pressuring admins to reverse their actions? Should be be using his status to sway things? Open to discussion... — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Should not those questions, in the first instance, be directed to the god-king in question?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- In my view Jimbo is absolutely within bounds to comment, and to request a reblock, on Dangerous Panda's talk page. And wow, I think that Wehwalt's characterization of him is way out of line in this discussion, and ramps up the drama needlessly. This is an admin page, for crying out loud! I call on an admin to use the powers granted to them by the community and take preventive action. At some point this vituperation needs to be stopped. And if not now, when? Jusdafax 19:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nonsense, it's a common phrase used around here with reference to him, and he's made reference to that or similar appellations in his paid speeches. And your comments do nothing to diminish any drama. It sounds like you're about to break into "first they came for the rollbackers ..."--Wehwalt (talk) 19:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Jimmy has as much say as anyone else here. In my experience when he says something was a mistake, it is most often the case. Chillum19:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- In my view Jimbo is absolutely within bounds to comment, and to request a reblock, on Dangerous Panda's talk page. And wow, I think that Wehwalt's characterization of him is way out of line in this discussion, and ramps up the drama needlessly. This is an admin page, for crying out loud! I call on an admin to use the powers granted to them by the community and take preventive action. At some point this vituperation needs to be stopped. And if not now, when? Jusdafax 19:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Calling it "personally intimidating" is silly. He is jusy saying the unblock was mistaken and that he hopes it will be reversed. No intimidation there. Jimbo should pressure admins to reverse bad decisions, so should admins and regular editors. Chillum19:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Calling it "personally intimidating" is silly. He is jusy saying the unblock was mistaken and that he hopes it will be reversed. No intimidation there. Jimbo should pressure admins to reverse bad decisions, so should admins and regular editors.
- I do agree that User:Jimbo_Wales must be allowed to voice his opinion to the exact same degree as everyone else, and that voice should be heard by the merits and strength of its reason alone. I personally disagree with his opinion here, but I don't see his expressing it as intimidation, and I hope Dangerous Panda doesn't either. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Who precisely is User:Jimbo_Wales? I don't believe I'm familiar with his work on Wikipedia; whereas Eric Corbett's work seems to be scattered over thousands of content pages. It really is distracting when these newbies jump in with their uniformed opinions. Giano (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- If you're not joking about not knowing who he is, he credits himself to be one of the founders of Wikipedia. (Though it's a complicated thing, go read his article at Jimmy_Wales#Wikipedia to better understand the conflict of only 'one of the founders') . Tutelary (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think Giano is asking how his work on content compares with Eric's.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Giano knows exactly who Jimbo is. He's just trolling. Resolute 20:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is that a personal attack? Oh wait, it can't be. No naughty words. HiLo48 (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- User:Resolute's insult towards User:Giano is every bit as bad as the comment leading to the block that is being discussed. Does anyone think he/she should be blocked? --John (talk) 21:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- For the sake of consistency, yes, I do think he should be blocked. Eric Corbett 21:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, ffs, and consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative, or the hobgoblin of little minds, and so forth. It is bad for the encyclopedia, in my opinion, to block regular content contributors such as Eric, or Giano, or Resolute (and, Resolute, it is also unimaginative and bad for the encyclopedia to call them trolls or a net negative). Just about every work environment I've experienced had its share of unkindness, profanity, and mean spirits. There are other ways to smooth the waves and reconciliate. The block-button is a stupid way. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- For the sake of consistency, yes, I do think he should be blocked. Eric Corbett 21:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- User:Resolute's insult towards User:Giano is every bit as bad as the comment leading to the block that is being discussed. Does anyone think he/she should be blocked? --John (talk) 21:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is that a personal attack? Oh wait, it can't be. No naughty words. HiLo48 (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- If you're not joking about not knowing who he is, he credits himself to be one of the founders of Wikipedia. (Though it's a complicated thing, go read his article at Jimmy_Wales#Wikipedia to better understand the conflict of only 'one of the founders') . Tutelary (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I do agree that User:Jimbo_Wales must be allowed to voice his opinion to the exact same degree as everyone else, and that voice should be heard by the merits and strength of its reason alone. I personally disagree with his opinion here, but I don't see his expressing it as intimidation, and I hope Dangerous Panda doesn't either. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I thought this was pretty rude too. --John (talk) 21:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Alas, I am a "prolific content contributor". The only suggestion could be made in this case as it relates to "the sake of consistency" is no action whatsoever. Resolute 21:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- And now we have "sophistry" to go with "troll" and "enabler". Resolute, do you like being an admin on this site? --John (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Can I add "histrionics" too? Because unless you are prepared to begin blocking Eric and Giano for civility violations as mild as those I have allegedly made, I would appreciate it if you would spare me them. Also, prolific content contributor immunity. Sorry. Resolute 21:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Prolific content contributor" applies only to Eric, not anyone else. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- And now we have "sophistry" to go with "troll" and "enabler". Resolute, do you like being an admin on this site? --John (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Alas, I am a "prolific content contributor". The only suggestion could be made in this case as it relates to "the sake of consistency" is no action whatsoever. Resolute 21:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing anything by User:Jimbo Wales which rises to the level of actionable abuse. He just stated his opinion, as is his right, he didn't wheel-war. Carrite (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm aware that Jimbo Wales has just acknowledged on his talk page that "progress involves working on some real issues with enforcement of civility", so I would like to hear what he has to say. -A1candidate (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sluzzelin Please do not compare Resolute to Giano or Eric Corbett.Giano and Eric Corbett has repeatedly been blocked, most commonly for edit warring ,Personal attacks and incivility over a prolonged period.There is a diverse opinion on how far a lot of article creation by an editor should be allowed to influence decisions on other matters concerning that editor. There are many who come close to thinking that a "good content creator" should never be excluded, no matter how grossly he has abused their position in other respects. At the other end of the spectrum there are Many who think that it should make no difference at all: a given offence should be treated exactly the same, no matter who committed it.
Giano and Eric Corbett have already repeatedly had allowances made because they are substantial content creator. Ignoring a blocks and unblocking again and again is evidently a mistake which seems to tell the community that they are above Wikipedia or a Carte blance to admin friends and they always got unblocked without even posting an unblock request.Please do not compare Resolute who has never even been blocked.Please note how much of time has been wasted in Arbcom cases due to these 2 editors.It is net negative to the Project.205.178.136.76 (talk) 23:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
More!
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Yet another example where an active discussion about this matter is closed in the midst of discussion. Now editors will disperse to various venues having achieved no consensus and whatever underlying issue is at hand will explode again in several months time. Perhaps instead we will have multiple discussions all over the place involving the same users but lacking the centrality. I challenge premature termination of the discussion (only 2 days after it had started) as it influences the ability of the community to come to a rationale decision, and we cannot solve whatever issue is causing this without a fully-fledged discussion, which is currently ongoing. Please reopen the discussion. 101.116.91.82 (talk) 00:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen - Highly dubious close of an active discussion, and it should be noted that six consecutive editors !voted Good block, bad unblock in just a few hours at the time of the closure, which gives the appearance, rightly or wrongly, of an attempt to stifle an emerging consensus, as well as an active discussion on Jimmy Wales' commentary on Dangerous Panda's talk page. This ANI closure itself becomes a further part of this snarled mess, and the admin responsible deserves scrutiny by the admin and editing community. Deeply wrong action. Jusdafax 00:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen - I would like to add myself to the group of six editors who voted Good block, bad unblock, because personal attacks such as "were you hiding behind the door when God handed out brains?" cannot be tolerated. Make that seven consecutive votes. -A1candidate (talk) 01:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Seven who think that "you're stupid" is some intolerable insult? Damn! Well, I'm nobody, and I've heard far worse in this very discussion. What do you think of "you're a corrupt admin"? Happy editing, Drmies (talk) 03:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's an insult, and it becomes an intolerable insult when hurled repeatedly at various individuals, after multiple warning and blocks, and scores of pages of discussion. "You're a corrupt admin" is also an intolerable insult, unless of course there is evidence that the admin is actually corrupt.- MrX 03:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Make that eight. I'm not seeing consensus here for any one course of action. This is something that needs to be resolved or we are going to be doing the same thing over and over. ) 23:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- (I got blocked for saying someone was of average intelligence, once. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC))
- Seven who think that "you're stupid" is some intolerable insult? Damn! Well, I'm nobody, and I've heard far worse in this very discussion. What do you think of "you're a corrupt admin"? Happy editing, Drmies (talk) 03:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen. This is exactly why we can't have nice things. It is impossible to address systemic issues when we handle them in this manner, where initial discussion is loudly disrupted by a few drama mongers, then the discussion is relatively quickly closed under the rationale that there's "too much drama", so thoughtful editors are unable to steer the discussion in a productive direction because it was closed before they even noticed it. Gamaliel (talk) 03:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- By "dramamongers" are you including those who persistently misread a comment and then forum shop until they get what they feel is an appropriate measure of satisfaction in that matter, failing to abide by consensus that what they thought they heard is not what was actually said? Or is that a description of a reasonable discussant? It has all been said 300 times by both sides anyway... Carrite (talk) 05:49, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - I've opened a formal close review near the bottom of this page, for anyone interested.- MrX 03:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed - Bad block, bad unblock. Nothing to see here, move along. Carrite (talk) 05:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed on ANI but move to new venue and reopen. Perhaps the Gender Gap project talk page would be a good place. Viriditas (talk) 06:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed. A lot of questionable decisions were made but I don't see anything actionable at the moment. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I think "drama mongers" describes perfectly some of the behaviour here. Gender gap? More like a civility gap. Guys, you cannot make the world "civil" by shouting, screeching, poking or threatening. It is best done by showing an example, not something the civility drama brigade are terribly adept at. I will make no further comment on this dreadful episode, unless BHG's tools are up for review. --John (talk) 08:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- There are places within the wider community where civil behaviour is mandated. Temple, law courts, news broadcasts, parliament. We cannot stop editors from having differences of opinion, but we can at least send a message that incivil behaviour and personal attacks are not tolerated. What I'm seeing from some quarters here is support for the exact opposite: that editors can do whatever they want. So long has they have a pet admin backing them up. Well, I say that the sort of encyclopaedia produced by the sort of people who think that attacking other people is good sport is going to end up being something that isn't as useful or savoury or neutral as it might be. It's not a matter of fighting for peace. It is a matter of setting a good example and not tolerating those who do not. --Pete (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed Nothing to be gained by further discussion, the unblocking admin will not be overruled by consensus so why spin the wheels?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed - With all respect it's gone on for long enough - Reopening won't solve anything. –Davey2010 • (talk) 13:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed. There is nothing to be gained from furthering this dispute at this time. TParis is certainly correct that ANI will not provide a resolution. Not now, not the next time and not the time after that. Resolute 15:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed. It was never a "fully-fledged discussion." It was an incomplete Frankenchicken, a mashup of vampire arguments and zombie animosities, capable only of destroying hope before drifting into the frozen archives still bitterly seeking closure. NebY (talk) 15:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen - This is a conversation that needs input and consensus. We can't keep on saying it's okay to attack other editors and get away with it, because we think it's too hard to find a solution. The gender imbalance thing is something that concerns me greatly. Are we becoming a monstrous community where women are not welcome unless they fart and curse along with the lads? A bit of scuffle and stoush is fine so long as we keep on cranking out articles on obscure border wars and loud cars and porn stars? --Pete (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reopen - Civility is a policy. Good block, bad unblock. An admin took action. Her action was dismissed. Is "you're stupid" an intolerable insult? In an isolated instance, no. As part of a pattern of behavior. Most definitely. Message to community? Civility is not a policy. Lightbreather (talk) 01:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed. A lot of the people crying out for civility wouldn't recognize real incivility if they fell headfirst into a bucket of it — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Let it happen If something keeps getting re-opened by several people then it is no longer appropriate to close it. If closing 4 times does not work then it is time to talk about it. Clearly there has been some very poor behavior and admin action may be called for. Also, Good block, bad unblock. These constant closing are sweeping under the rug that many people think that an admin made a bad move, we need to talk this out. Chillum15:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, but at this point wouldn't it make sense to use another venue and focus the discussion either on Eric Corbett's conduct, or admin accountability per 16:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
-
- Yes. Somehow a squabble about 3RR, a naughty word, a bad unblock have all gotten mixed up into a sticky mess. I would like to see a serious discussion on the appropriateness of admins preventing the enforcement of the NPA policy which enjoys consensus. The above discussion is a shit storm of multiple topics and confused votes. There is a serious issue and frankly I think the actions of several people need to be reviewed in an organized fashion. Chillum17:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- For that to happen would need to be arbcom, and we've been there before.Blethering Scot 18:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. Somehow a squabble about 3RR, a naughty word, a bad unblock have all gotten mixed up into a sticky mess. I would like to see a serious discussion on the appropriateness of admins preventing the enforcement of the NPA policy which enjoys consensus. The above discussion is a shit storm of multiple topics and confused votes. There is a serious issue and frankly I think the actions of several people need to be reviewed in an organized fashion.
I remember Malleus/Eric having issues with civility years ago when I edited as an IP. I can't believe that this drama llama is still going strong! Sure, he's a good content editor, but so what? Is he a good user? Do the self-serving contributions that he's made to some exceedingly obscure topics really justify the extraordinary amount of effort he has required of others for years on end? Maybe, if Eric refuses to be civil and appropriate with others, he should rescind any expectations that others will be civil to him. Think about it. If his grand stance for justice is nothing more than fighting for the right to swear and hurl insults like a drunken teenager – his maturity is, at best that level – then that's what he deserves in return. I say he's a whiny little bitch that regularly disrupts the project for no other reason than he is an attention whore. There, I said it, so if the great Malleus is to be respected, he would want me to be able to say that to him. This cult of personality has long out-lived its usefulness to Wikipedia, and Malleus/Eric is easily the biggest waste of resources that the project has ever had. He is no longer a net positive, and he hasn't been for quite some time. We need to start focusing on protecting the project, not individual editors who build-up a following of sycophants.MaximumEdison (talk) 21:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Striking the comment of a now-blocked sock. Carrite (talk) 17:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep closed - a morass of walls of text is impossible to gain true consensus of. structured debate somewhere will be more helpful. Any further sanctions on past actions at this point are punitive.Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
New editor who refuses to adhere to WP:OR, thinking ancestry has higher priority
Hi, I've been having some trouble with a new editor (
For example, look at this (and the recent edit history of the page).
Can anyone help out here? I don't think that he is vandalizing the article on purpose, it's just that he reacts very negatively when I try to explain that a published source (in this case, the biographical dictionary) has higher validity than (original research) statements based on the story that is told in his family.
There may be a possibility that the biographical dictionary contains an error, and that his statement is correct, but he doesn't understand that he needs to provide published source material for that (I've tried suggesting scanning documents to Wikimedia Commons, if he's got any). No matter what, it's recieved like I'm insulting his honor or something. - Anonimski (talk) 08:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- The OP did not notify the editor. Editor has since been notified.[101] —Farix (t | c) 14:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I blocked Moca1810 for 36 hours for violating ) 22:22, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
User Eleanor60 has escalated to legal threats and cross-posting personal information about me to my talk page
The dispute with user Eleanor60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User_Eleanor60_spamming_all_Ford_Mustang-related_pages_with_comments_about_Denise_Halicki.27s_copyright_to_the_Gone_in_60_Seconds_franchise - has resulted in the user issuing legal threats to me and Wikipedia on my talk page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cudak888&diff=prev&oldid=619742003
The user is also posting personally identifiable information about me gathered from internet forums.
Please take action. I don't know who this person is, but the issue is escalating into something too close to home.
Cudak888 (talk) 00:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have rev-deleted the edit because it contained personal information. I am going to block the user Eleanor60, though I don't see the legal threat, as they're obviously here to promote their own interests, not to improve the encyclopedia. Review is requested, since I did clean-up on two of the articles involved. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, Diannaa. I just re-read their statement and realized that their "legal" comment didn't read as a direct threat, but their poor writing caused me to interpret it differently. At any rate, I am glad to see them gone - it became very frustrating to see hours of meticulous research, editing and referencing go down the tube time after time. Cudak888 (talk) 01:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Legal threat by 67.243.47.146
67.243.47.146 (talk · contribs) Stated on User talk:Smartse Please mind your business and leave the defaming of my character alone...or there will be a lawsuit. Jim1138 (talk) 01:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- An immediate lengthy block of the IP is needed. Where are the admins? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've blocked the IP for a week to account for possible reallocation. Mike V • Talk 01:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Based on the comments, the IP claims to be Eddie Brill and that the information about him leaving the The Late Show is false. —Farix (t | c) 02:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The IP's complaints are based on a NY Times blog and a Reuters article. If those are considered reliable sources, then the IP's complaint is with them, not necessarily us. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:36, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Based on the comments, the IP claims to be Eddie Brill and that the information about him leaving the The Late Show is false. —Farix (t | c) 02:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Inappropriate use of the sandbox by an IP address
I am letting you know that this IP address has been misusing the sandbox as demonstrate here and keeps making disruptive edits to the sandbox as seen in their contributions. I don't know if a block would been the most appropriate action to take or if to formal warning to the user and let then know to read the Misuse of the sandbox page. I hope that you admins will make the most appropriate decision of what to do with this anonymous user. Many Thanks for your time, 5.175.150.244 (talk) 06:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hot damn, Ass Pus is still around. This guy has been doing this on and off for almost a decade. --NE2 06:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Insults on my talkpage
With this comment User:Iranmehr27 is unsulting me on my talkpage. It is not only a racist Anti-Afghan insult, but he is also directly insulting, more or less telling me to prostitute myself. You could ask one of the many Afghan or Iranian Wikipedia users to translate that text to you. --Lysozym (talk) 10:21, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I see that you did not notify the editor of this topic, as required. Also, these allege insults are over a week old and the editor hasn't edited Wikipedia since. I'm not sure what admin action you are seeking as the matter has become stale. —Farix (t | c) 14:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Strange IP edits to Beyoncé (album)
Hello, me and a few other editors have been struggling with a substantial influx of IP edits on Beyoncé (album), where the genre field is being changed. A while back we reached a consensus to add Electro R&B and pop to the infobox, but another editor pointed out that the former isn't an actual standalone genre, so through edit summaries and the talk page, Alternative R&B replaced electro R&B as a better suit. Now these IP edits want the genre field to read as it once did previously, but are refusing to recognise that consensus has changed, and, most importantly, will not discuss their proposed change on the talk page, which is the best way to achieve a consensus to add/remove genres. I'm confused by the nature of the edits (which is why I am posting here) because I suspect they are all from the same person or the same group of people as these IP addresses haven't edited Wikipedia before, they all want the same thing (and relentlessly) and their edit summaries are very similar. I'm unsure whether to assert they I believe they are a sockpuppet or are masking/changing their IP, or whether these are synonymous? —JennKR | ☎ 15:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's likely all the same person, editing from a dynamic IP (their service provider assigns a new IP each time they access the Internet), possibly from a mobile device. It's not being done intentionally by the user. As this will make it difficult to communicate with the user, I will semi-protect the article for a few days to drive them to the talk page. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Am I really in violation of something?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I just got a warning e-mail from a presently-blocked contentious user stating "I see you've re-inserted the text I redacted. Please review the BLP policy page. It applies to contentious material about living and recently deceased individuals. Please undo your re-insertion of the violating text, which is Original Research, Soapbox, BLP violation, and fyi is subject to the Arbcom discretionary sanctions concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at ARBPIA."
What I had done was restore the rationale for a delete vote by User:Carolmooredc, which was innocuous and illustrated why she voted as she did. The Hannibal thing is mentioned several times in the deletion discussion. Such discussions are not subject to OR rules and/or sourcing as would the actual biographies be, she said nothing slanderous or demeaning, she was making an observation only.
My restoration of her text, by the way, is https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FHadar_Goldin&diff=619801823&oldid=619799329 I've tried to look up this ARBPIA thing, can't find it, and don't need to spend any more time on it.
Is this something I need to worry about or can I go to bed?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- 13:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, there's nothing I can make out of that gordian knot, except that I didn't violate anything, and User:Carolmooredc didn't either. Thanks for the link and the confirmation, good night from Japan.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can't see any obvious BLP problem there. The comment has political overtones, obviously, but it doesn't actually say anything about the politics or beliefs of the article's subject; BLP isn't relevant to that aspect of the comment. Further, the comment (at least implicitly) expresses doubt about the notability of the individual at hand; while that type of discussion certainly can engage BLP, questions of notability are the bread and butter of AfD and the comment appears to be entirely in bounds. (Caveat: I have read neither the biographical article nor the rest of the AfD thread; I have only considered the contents of the comment at issue. I neither endorse nor reject its substantive content.)
- Incidentally, presently-blocked users shouldn't be evading their blocks to edit Wikipedia pages—who was the blocked editor? If there are BLP issues that blocked users wish to bring up, they are free to use the appropriate channels: Wikipedia:Contact us - Readers. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, it's SPECIFICO, but he didn't edit Wikipedia pages to write me, he e-mailed me. Just it sounded like he is definitely not a reliable judge of what is or is not, *ahem* kosher on Wikipedia, so I wanted to put it to the admins if I stepped on someone's sacred cow. How's that for a mixed metaphor? Sleepy...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- You didn't do anything at the direction of Specifico, which would be WP:BE. So no harm, no foul on anyones part. Specifico & Carolmooredc have a long history of less-than-cordial interaction. One starts editing in a subject area and the other follows. Sometimes these are new areas, sometimes old interests. (Both are topic banned from certain subjects.) You and the community just happened to be caught up in the affair. This thread had best be closed so that more editors are spared. – S. Rich (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is just a pattern of SPECIFICO Wikihounding of me going on for almost a year which I will have to deal with separately. It's perfectly ok to say that an individual may have been killed under the Hannibal Directive and that may be the only thing making his life and death notable, though I actually wasn't quite that explicit in my posting. But it's already in another article, which is why I voted delete; however, had someone else come along and said, "No, here's 14 WP:RS saying this is really important." I might have changed my opinion. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, here are some relevant refs since the NY Times ref I used in the two article it also was removed from Hadar Goldin and Hannibal Directive so more than enough to put back the material when I or someone else has a chance: Haaretz; Israel's I24news; IB Times; National Post. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, here are some relevant refs since the NY Times ref I used in the two article it also was removed from
- This is just a pattern of SPECIFICO Wikihounding of me going on for almost a year which I will have to deal with separately. It's perfectly ok to say that an individual may have been killed under the Hannibal Directive and that may be the only thing making his life and death notable, though I actually wasn't quite that explicit in my posting. But it's already in another article, which is why I voted delete; however, had someone else come along and said, "No, here's 14 WP:RS saying this is really important." I might have changed my opinion. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- You didn't do anything at the direction of Specifico, which would be
- Ah, it's SPECIFICO, but he didn't edit Wikipedia pages to write me, he e-mailed me. Just it sounded like he is definitely not a reliable judge of what is or is not, *ahem* kosher on Wikipedia, so I wanted to put it to the admins if I stepped on someone's sacred cow. How's that for a mixed metaphor? Sleepy...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't have time in next few days to deal with it but encouraging others to do so. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Blatant plagarism of public domain sources by a Wikipedia administrator.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
One of the recent articles created by @Rosiestep: came to my attention last night, and when I read it the phrasing seemed strange for an article written by an editor. After looking at the cited sources, I realized that it was because the entire article was plagarized from 100+ year old texts. I"m not talking about 'closely paraphrased', I'm talking about extensive verbatim copying, without any rewriting. Cited to the source, but not attributed. Not a copyright violation, but blatant plagarism.
So, I looked at the last five articles she had worked on. Every single one was exactly the same, thrown together from the cited public domain sources. In some cases, two or three sentences in a row from one source, then some from another. In some cases, three or four paragraphs in a row. In one case, the plagarized text crossed a gap where there were missing pages in the Google books scan, and the mangled sentence fragments were reproduced word for word.
Specifically, with diffs that show the extent of the plagarized content...
- John Judson Ames - content plagarized mostly verbatim (with a bit of rearrangement) from The Historical Society of Southern California Quarterly, Volume 8, pages 11-18 - removed with this edit.
- Bancroft Library - content plagarized from The Historical Society of Southern California Quarterly, Volume 8, pages 163-166 - removed with this edit.
- California Silk Center Association - some content plagarized from An illustrated history of Southern California, page 463 (the lead) was fixed by @Huon:, further content plagarized from The Historical Society of Southern California Quarterly, Volume 8, pages 146-148 - removed with this edit and this edit.
- Joseph D. Moody - entire article plagarized verbatim (except for changing the tense of sentences) from The Historical Society of Southern California Quarterly, Volume 8, pages 138 and 139 - removed with this edit.
- Los Angeles Plaza - content plagarized from Annual Publication of the Historical Society of Southern ..., Volume 4, pages 247-255 - removed with these edits and further content plagarized from The Quarterly, Volumes 3-4, pages 41-44, including directly a broken sentence spanning two missing pages in the Google book scan, removed with these edits.
I have by far not looked at all of her contributions, but out of the last five articles to which she has made substantial edits (most of which she created), every one was a blatant case of plagiarism, and at this point is seems apparent that there are many more. This is unacceptable.
I'm well aware that there will be complaints and drama about this, and, to be honest, I care little about anything said by the apologists that typically pop up around this kind of thing. I have discussed this off-wiki with several admins, who will remain nameless unless they chose to speak up, and one advised I bring this to ANI, while another said he would simply G12 the articles. It beggars belief to believe that an editor who has been an administrator for five years, and claims to possess a Masters degree, is unaware of Wikipedia's policies regarding plagarism, or even ignoring policy, the simple ethical issue involved. This is not something that should be ignored or dismissed as trivial, it is something that if ignored will directly serve to discredit the project.
Again, this is not a matter of a copyright violation, because the material is in the public domain. It's also not something that is just a 'policy issue'. It's a matter of academic ethics. Also, when an editor types in the box, unless they attribute the content to a source, they are claiming that the content is their own work, and claiming that they hold copyright in that content. In this case, that claim was patently false.
This is not a dispute between her and I, and is not something that she needs to explain or apologize to me about, which is why I have not attempted to 'resolve this' somewhere else. This is something that she needs to justify and explain to the community, and there needs to be far more eyes than mine looking to see that this is fixed, given that whether intentional or not, given her prolific editing it is something that could potentially span hundreds of articles. Reventtalk 01:54, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- So why are you removing the text rather than just providing proper attribution? I also don't understand your reasoning for bringing this straight to AN/I without first trying to raise it with the editor in question. Monty845 02:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- It looks to me like talk) 02:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Am I supposed to personally take responsibility for overseeing if an administrator cleans up after themself? Or am I supposed to personally look at every single one of her articles? It's not a dispute between me and her, like I said. Removing the material and providing a diff is a simple way to show the extent of the problem. Reventtalk 03:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- It looks to me like
- I guess someone other than you should give this an extra look, then. That was your intent, correct? --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Essentialy, yes. Let me make it blatantly clear. I'm not here asking for sanctions, I really couldn't care less if she is 'punished' or not, I dont even care if it was intentional or not. I'm bringing it up here because it is an issue that requires the 'intervention of administrators or experienced editors' to see that it is actually addressed, specifically because of her prolific editing over time, and the fact that the ones I looked at were all plagarism. This is not the 'request for sanctions' noticeboard, though it is used that way, it is the 'incidents' noticeboard. Reventtalk — Preceding undated comment added 03:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- What are your thoughts about trying to settle this with the editor, person to person? --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think Revent is asking for help with that, since this seems to be a rather herculean task to do properly. :-/ , (lots of edits to go through); and they don't know the best process to follow here. --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi folks. My first time here... a bit disconcerting. I made a mistake by not adding the source attribution template at the bottom of the articles immediately; given time, I would have as I have on other articles. Check out my user:Rosiestep/Tools page and you'll see that I've got the source attribution template listed there for ease in access as I use it from time to time. I will add the source attribution to the pages that need it now. If I need to do anything else, just nudge me. My apologies for incoveniencing your weekend with this problem. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, you were still working on it. That explains it then.
- I heard Revent say something to the effect that they would assist with that if you needed any help, if I read that right. In any case, Have fun! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi folks. My first time here... a bit disconcerting. I made a mistake by not adding the source attribution template at the bottom of the articles immediately; given time, I would have as I have on other articles. Check out my user:Rosiestep/Tools page and you'll see that I've got the source attribution template listed there for ease in access as I use it from time to time. I will add the source attribution to the pages that need it now. If I need to do anything else, just nudge me. My apologies for incoveniencing your weekend with this problem. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think Revent is asking for help with that, since this seems to be a rather herculean task to do properly. :-/ , (lots of edits to go through); and they don't know the best process to follow here. --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- What are your thoughts about trying to settle this with the editor, person to person? --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Essentialy, yes. Let me make it blatantly clear. I'm not here asking for sanctions, I really couldn't care less if she is 'punished' or not, I dont even care if it was intentional or not. I'm bringing it up here because it is an issue that requires the 'intervention of administrators or experienced editors' to see that it is actually addressed, specifically because of her prolific editing over time, and the fact that the ones I looked at were all plagarism. This is not the 'request for sanctions' noticeboard, though it is used that way, it is the 'incidents' noticeboard. Reventtalk — Preceding undated comment added 03:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I guess someone other than you should give this an extra look, then. That was your intent, correct? --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Rosiestep: Hi. I hope that you aren't under the impression that this was a personal attack on you in some way, as it truly was not intended to be so. I don't know you, and as I said, was not here asking for sanctions... I was trying to bring enough eyes to the issue to ensure it was taken care of, as from what I had seen it was an ongoing problem. I only looked at your most recent edits, and so I honestly had/have no idea if you add the templates later. I merely felt, as I tried to make clear, that it was not something that should remain a 'me and you' issue, since it was not a content dispute, and not something that I could in any meaningful way personally ensure was addressed. (There's also the matter of simply making other aware of the issue 'in general', not just regarding you.)
- The big problem with adding the attribution template later is that Wikipedia is mirrored...constantly, and there is no insurance that those mirrors are of the latest version of the content. If a version of the page is created with unattributed content, that version of the page is effectively making the claim that that content is your personally copyrighted work, and licensed to Wikipedia. Even if you correct it later, that version still exists, and could be reverted to, restored, or simply distributed in that version. It's important (in a sense that some people will undoubtedly consider trivial, but ethically) that the content is properly attributed when added. To do otherwise opens Wikipedia to accusations (whether in good faith, or otherwise) of ignoring plagiarism, even if it was later fixed.
- I am perfectly willing, if needed, to help you fix any articles where the attribution is still needed, and you can feel perfectly free to revert my removal of the content (just please fix the issue). Like I mentioned, the main reason why I removed it instead of just adding the attribution was to generate the diffs that showed the size of what had been copied, so that it would be clear it was significant and not just me being pedantic.
- Anyone who wants to close this now can feel free, IMO. Reventtalk 04:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I added the source attribution template to the articles in need of it. I can see how my slowness/sloppiness proved I wasn't thinking it through... mirrors and all. Sometimes, skipping a step is no big deal and sometimes it is. Because plagarism is a big deal, I'll take this as a friendly reminder to avoid skipping/postponing the source attribution step again. As for the removed content, I'll take a look at restoring some/all in the next couple of days. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oh wow, and so you did. That was a bunch of work done very quickly! Did Revent help? --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I added the source attribution template to the articles in need of it. I can see how my slowness/sloppiness proved I wasn't thinking it through... mirrors and all. Sometimes, skipping a step is no big deal and sometimes it is. Because plagarism is a big deal, I'll take this as a friendly reminder to avoid skipping/postponing the source attribution step again. As for the removed content, I'll take a look at restoring some/all in the next couple of days. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
@Revent:, whatever you thought, you owe Rosie a big apology. You should never come running to ANI talking about a seasoned contributor in this manner, it looks malicious and looks like you're trying to get her into trouble. You should have simply asked her first. All her articles need is text attribution in addition to the source (which she's clearly quite happy to go back and do). It is quite acceptable to use PD material on wikipedia and our resource would greatly benefit from public domain text, however close to the original. This sort of thing really angers me on wikipedia. Please don't do it again.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:52, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- "Big apology"? The question is whether Rosie screwed up or not, and it seems we now have it from the horse's mouth. -- Ohc ¡digame! 07:36, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, he owes her an apology. Regardless of whether she forgot to add the attribution template there was absolutely no need for that hostile tone, reporting her as if she was a vandal. If you can't see that it was inappropriate to come running here instead of notifying her first.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:44, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dr. Blofeld: I'm not going to argue with you. All I have to say to you is that, based on what you have just said, you have apparently not read all of my earlier comments. The issue needed to be addressed regardless of when, or if, she logged back in. Reventtalk 07:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, not a big apology, perhaps a small one. Many editors think they can copy paste material into an article, then work on cleaning it up. That isn't the case, and when the material is subject to copyright, some of us spend a fair amount of time rev-deling old versions. That isn't necessary in this case, because it is pd material, but why not include the attribution notice in the first edit, rather than a later one? I agree it would have been a better practice to send a personal note rather than a template, but when you are poking through contributions and finding many issues, I can understand the desire to notify quickly and a template is easy.
- I also note that the posts about the issues were archived, within hours and without a response. Many of us have noticed editors removing notices from talk pages without a response, and it is a red flag, not proof of anything, but a big red flag. Could user:Revent have tried again, to make sure before coming to ANI? Of course, and that would have been a better option, but please note the OP asked advice of several admins, one of whom recommended posting here. Is an editor with under 10K edits supposed to tell an admin that their advice to check in with experienced editors is wrong? That's asking a lot.
- I don't think we should be castigating someone for identifying a potential problem, notifying the other party multiple times, and after getting no response (but evidecne that the post was seen), and advice from an admin to post here, actually followed that advice.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- ...apart from the fact that the ANI post, and in fact Rosie's first comments here, were a couple of hours before the templates were archived from her talk page - hardly the big red flag you talk about, and not really reason to jump straight to this noticeboard.--Gilderien Berate|List of good deeds 18:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like to me this issue was resolved amicably with both editor's
- wtf is the big deal? It's PD material so no laws are broken. Ethics arn't written into policy here. Geeze. Case of a nuclear explosion for something that isn't even wrong in the legal or policy sense and just violated one editor's 'ethics'. Perhaps it is ethically wrong, but that doesn't warrant the level of fuel generated here. Next time, let's try to not start drama unless there is actual cause?--v/r - TP 20:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks to me too that the matter was settled very well between the two editors. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Anarcho-capitalism RfC
A recent RfC on whether to include a specific, well sourced, sentence in the lead about the relationship with Anarchism proper was closed with the conclusion that it should be there. Prior to this, there had been persistent edit-warring over the content, with two bouts of page protection. Since the RfC was closed and the material included, three different editors – the three who opposed its inclusion in the RfC but failed to carry the discussion – have continued to repeatedly take it out. User:Netoholic has now done that three times in the past two days: here, here and here. User:Knight of BAAWA has done it twice – here and here – and User:JLMadrigal once, here.
I'm bringing this to ANI rather than say the EW board, first, because none are technically in breach of 3RR (and of course their deletions have themselves been reverted by others) and, secondly, because this is about abuse of the RfC process as much as it is about edit-warring. Editors can't simply ignore the result of an RfC because they disagree with it or because they think the agreed text happens to be "redundant" or that they suddenly have a better idea for the text. If they really want to contest the conclusion, there are review options. Knight of BAAWA was blocked previously for actions on the page. Netoholic was involved in similar behaviour recently on a related page – ignoring or trying to work around an RfC result. I tried to head off having to come here on the talk page but there has been no substantive engagement or response there, while the edit-warring and deletions continue. N-HH talk/edits 16:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- This ANI discussion is appropriate as N-HH is rightly pointing to three editors. However, the discussion could also have been taken to the edit-warring noticeboard because of the obstruction of these three editors to implementation of this RfC close which determined that there was a consensus of "weak yes" to include the sentence. The three named editors are pushing back because the RfC result was "weak", even though it was also "yes". These three editors appear to be adherents of anarcho-capitalism, which makes them very interested in having the topic be presented in a positive rather than neutral light. Binksternet (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Protected for three weeks. Somebody else can judge the consensus. If someone wants to unprotect then feel free. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 17:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- But can we protect it in the version that accords with the RfC? I know WRONGVERSION and all that, but we had the RfC and consensus has been determined – we've basically rewarded edit-warriors who felt free to ignore an RfC conclusion that they disagreed with. N-HH talk/edits 17:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- As an uninvolved admin, I'm endorsing CambridgeBayWeather's protection. And no, N-HH, we cannot protect the right version. The OP misstates the dispute. The RFC was on including a sentence to distinguish the subject from anarchists - that has been accomplished. This is over adding a second sentence expanding on that matter which the RFC didn't come to a consensus on. Protection, and not blocking, is appropriate here.--v/r - TP 17:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but my original post states the position correctly, with links. The RfC was precisely about the exact text in question. This is very clearly not about any "second" sentence. N-HH talk/edits 17:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- TP states the situation very well. The 3 editors the OP calls out here have each offered variations of the wording of the point, and worked to incorporate it in a meaningful and more widely acceptable way. The OP and others insist on a particular exact phrase. Frankly, if something isn't working out, you are supposed to come up with a new solution, not just drag the same dead horse through the muck each and every time. Generally speaking, those that try to compromise and try new solutions are coming from a stronger position than those that just rehash the same points. -- Netoholic @ 17:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, you have tried to insert different wording about a different point, nor has that proposal been through the same level of discussion as the wording discussed in the RfC or garnered the same level of support. Anyway, there are more fuckwits on WP than I thought and nothing anyone can do about it. I've wasted probably two hours overall on this issue on the page itself and now on various boards only to end up with the page protected in its flawed form again. TP accuses me of misrepresenting the situation and then gets all sarky and pithy when I try to point out that actually he's the one who hasn't quite got it. Fuck that. N-HH talk/edits 18:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- 18:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, you have tried to insert different wording about a different point, nor has that proposal been through the same level of discussion as the wording discussed in the RfC or garnered the same level of support. Anyway, there are more fuckwits on WP than I thought and nothing anyone can do about it. I've wasted probably two hours overall on this issue on the page itself and now on various boards only to end up with the page protected in its flawed form again. TP accuses me of misrepresenting the situation and then gets all sarky and pithy when I try to point out that actually he's the one who hasn't quite got it. Fuck that. N-HH talk/edits 18:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- As an uninvolved admin, I'm endorsing CambridgeBayWeather's protection. And no, N-HH, we cannot protect the right version. The OP misstates the dispute. The RFC was on including a sentence to distinguish the subject from anarchists - that has been accomplished. This is over adding a second sentence expanding on that matter which the RFC didn't come to a consensus on. Protection, and not blocking, is appropriate here.--v/r - TP 17:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- But can we protect it in the version that accords with the RfC? I know WRONGVERSION and all that, but we had the RfC and consensus has been determined – we've basically rewarded edit-warriors who felt free to ignore an RfC conclusion that they disagreed with. N-HH talk/edits 17:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Protected for three weeks. Somebody else can judge the consensus. If someone wants to unprotect then feel free. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 17:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the protection, but is there more that can be done? The page has been protected a couple of times and, once removed, the edit war resumes. I believe there is a deeper, POV issue at hand that needs resolution, but the NPOV noticeboard has a backlog. — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 18:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Since OP has left the building, and the page has been protected and endorsed, I think we're now better off just continuing this on the article talk page. I've opened a new section there which hopefully can get to the root of this continuing problem. -- Netoholic @ 19:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, after this firm admin action, this is how it has continued on the talk page, on top of the usual wikilawyering and "I, an anonymous internet user, know better than what academic and other real-world sources say". We can only wait until this third bout of page protection is lifted and then we shall also no doubt see real improvements to the page itself along these lines. N-HH talk/edits 12:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Fundamental problem
Anarcho-capitalism doesn't belong under parent Anarchism. It's a species of Libertarianism. — Wolf DeVoon (talk) 03:01, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Correct... and yet not. The terms anarchism and libertarianism both referred to the same political philosophy for several decades before the Old Right in the USA, influenced by the individualism of American anarchists, began identifying as libertarians. Brian Doherty, in Radicals for Capitalism, calls this movement "modern American libertarianism," but others refer to it as right-libertarianism or propertarianism to distinguish it from the historically left-wing and anti-private property ideology of anarchism. Amongst right-libertarians, there is a debate about whether or not the state is necessary to protect individual rights and private property—minarchists believe it is, anarcho-capitalists don't. — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 22:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Comments from RFC Closer
I closed the RFC as No Consensus on statement A and a Weak Support of statement B. It is my understanding that an RFC establishes consensus (if weak consensus) and that ignoring the RFC is editing against consensus, which is a form of disruptive editing. If any editor thinks that my closure was incorrect, they can request closure review, and I agree that my closure was a judgment call that can be reviewed. However (although I may be considered
- This diff (which shows the changes from the start of the RfC to today) demonstrates that the lead indeed now does have a brief summary which satisfies Statement B of the RfC (but without the accompanying problems. What is happening post-RfC is that the RfC opener still wants his exact line "Anarcho-Capitalism is not usually recognized as a form of anarchism..." in the lead, and doesn't accept the new section which incorporates the basic idea "Anarcho-capitalists are distinguished from... anti-capitalist anarchists...". The RfC and Statement B in particular was not about any specific wording, and the "weak support" result you noted is a strong hint that the OPs exact wording is not the route to go to solve the issue. -- Netoholic @ 20:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- A formulation which says "anarcho-capitalists are distinguished from [other types of] anarchists" does not reflect, and cannot be a replacement or alternative for, the RfC-approved observation that "anarcho-capitalists are often not considered to be anarchists [at all]". This has been pointed out on the talk page, and there is no consensus whatsoever that such phrasing tallies with the RfC conclusion. Anyone who understands English can see that, even if such people are in short supply on Wikipedia. Your spanning diff is also misleading as it omits to make clear that the statement about minarchism and other distinctions etc is included in the post-RfC version. And regardless of what you and TP seem to have taken away from all this, as pointed out, the RfC was very much about a specific form of wording, and how to reflect that; again, as anyone who can read and understand English can see. Maybe there's another way of doing that in terms of exact wording, but this is not it. And as noted, if you think the viewpoint I have argued for is wrong, or that the RfC closure was wrong, there are other avenues for addressing that. Edit-warring against the conclusion is out of order and it is ridiculous that subsequent admin action has in effect given such actions a seal of approval. I don't mind time-consuming bureaucratic process as long as it gets somewhere sensible in the end. When you have it and you still end up with nonsense – and this is not the first occasion for that – there is no point. N-HH talk/edits 20:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
SPA 107.199.168.97 longterm editwarring on various religion articles
107.199.168.97 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Can an admin please block this guy long term? He has been edit warring for months now, especially on King James Only movement. Many many people, including myself as various IPs a few times, have reverted his unilateral removal of sourced relevant content. His rationale is "bias", despite the text not stating anything other than pure facts, and he also refuses to ever engage in any discussion, despite multiple attempts by others to do so. It is clear that he is nothing more than a single-agenda POV pusher and he should be blocked long term to prevent the continued unilateral and unjustified removal of sourced relevant material. 2600:1000:B012:216A:63D9:F760:42E3:F49A (talk) 14:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Blocked for half a fortnight. We normally don't block an IP that's not vandalising at the moment, lest it get reassigned to someone else, but this is quite obviously a stable IP. A long-term block really isn't appropriate for someone like this, who's only once before been blocked, but should he resume as soon as the half-fortnight is expired, we can go to a month-long block immediately. Nyttend (talk) 00:57, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Above user has made what appears to be a legal threat in their edit summary [102]- not blatent but is how I interpreted it as being last editor. Could someone look into it. Amortias (T)(C) 11:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Definitely a legal threat. But the article itself has some very serious BLP issues, not least of which is that if fails ) 13:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- P.S. The OP did not notify the editor as required. I have notified the editor of this thread.[103] —Farix (t | c) 14:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I looked into the issue further and it appears that Misula89 has a legitimate concern. A section of the article was copied directly from the article subject's IMDB page. I've removed it and deleted the affected revisions. Mike V • Talk 14:58, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Some urls are not permitted in that article because they don't belong to the authentic author's web site.
- Please, stop from reediting the forbbiden urls or delete the article NOW or we are obligue to inform to the police.
- Thanks! (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misula89 (talk • contribs)
- Comment I've had to issue Misula89 a Level 4 warning for vandalism of the article. The URLs he is changing are the IMDb profile and the subject official website. He has been changing them to random IMDb profiles and cypher-squatting pages. —Farix (t | c) 15:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Legitimate concerns or not, his editing was egregiously disruptive. Apparently, to make a point (assuming he really had a point), he vandalized the article repeatedly. He was also incompetent. I couldn't even take his legal threat seriously it was so poorly worded. I've indeffed the account. I'm going off-wiki so if another administrator believes my action was too harsh, feel free to do whatever you want, but if you unblock him, please monitor him.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:38, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Could you please delete 2 articles?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can you delete 2 irrelevant articles, which are created by
- Any administrator who take this subject, let me say that this user is a probablemnte puppet Sky0000, Not sure, but both users to edit the same manner and through a cell, I'm not making accusations, but editions of this user are similar to those of Sky0000.--(talk)19:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I forgot my passwords again and I had to do new one please that person never leaves me alone because I did 2 accounts more now all accounts are closed and I promise I will not make new accounts but please solve my problem and do not ban me. Zeta54 (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- (talk)20:22, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you think an article doesn't belong on wikipedia, your best bet is to use the Articles for deletion process. This page is more for emergency administrator intervention or other issues that need quick resolutions. Content disputes like this can be more easily and appropriately handled at WP;AFD or on the article talk pages depending on the specifics. Hope that helps! Alicb (talk) 04:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you think an article doesn't belong on wikipedia, your best bet is to use the
The same situation as
- Comment Aside from the fact that this should be at WP:AN, and not ANI, don't you think we can wait and see if Julia or another user will close it? Pine also knows how to do so. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- (hopefully!) all
Done --Mdann52talk to me! 10:26, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- (hopefully!) all
Profanity and abuse directed by IP editor against myself
ResolvedNot sure where else to put this but do I have to put up with this abuse from IP editor at 108.20.78.7?? Quis separabit? 03:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed their comment and added a warning. If they drop the issue, great. If they reply with anything else then I won't hesitate to block. If another admin feels like a block is already warranted, go right ahead. In short, [email protected], No: you don't have to deal with that. But it was several days ago at this point. Rjd0060 (talk) 04:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- But it was several days ago at this point.
- I am not onwiki 24/7; I reported it as soon as I saw it. It was on his talk page not mine. Quis separabit? 16:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- But it was several days ago at this point.
Crocodile tears. A
There's nothing more to see here. As far as I'm concerned, this fight is over and done with. I'm moving on (as I tried to previously before being chased down by Rms). You can "block" me if you like, but that would be foolish and you wouldn't be considering the big picture.
I'm going to do two more things related our unfortunate digression before I go: 1) I'm going to revert the deletion of my "special comments" on my talk page. That's an important matter of principle. To have deleted my response without deleting Rms's also-inappropriate snark was an improper judgement made before Rjd had all the facts. 2) After that, I'm going to blank the whole page because it's all very stupid. All of this digression is very stupid.
108.20.78.7 (talk) 05:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Stupid question. Wouldn't this navbox be better as a simple succession box? --NE2 06:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Marked section as resolved for now. The user was active and refrained from personal attacks/civ issues. I'll keep an eye on them for any other issues. Rjd0060 (talk) 12:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
::::: The most comments by the IP (05:48, 4 August) on this thread make it quite clear that this is not resolved. Quis separabit? 16:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::: "The user was active and refrained from personal attacks/civ issues." is inaccurate ("passive aggressive, snooty, snotty, bully"). Quis separabit? 16:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Fine, am dropping it for now, despite IP bad faith. Quis separabit? 14:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Long term, slow edit warring via multiple IPs
A number of articles are undergoing a slow edit war. Apparently by one person using multiple IPs. The anon does not leave any edit summary other and does not seem to communicate. All articles are not reverted by all IPs, so this is likely more perverse than as presented here. Number after article is approx. number of reverts or edits which were reverted.
- Baby Songs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 36+
- ) 34?
- Little Bear (TV series) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 2
- Babar (TV series) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 6
- ) 5
- ) 2
- Color Classics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 6 The IP seems to be insisting that all were filmed in Technicolor even though RS shows one was filmed in Cinecolor
- ) 30?
- ) 3+
- The Electric Company (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 3
IP addresses apparently involved in approximate reverse order. Active time and some edit counts
- 2602:306:25a5:9ce9:1462:6db:edd3:f7fa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked August 2014 - 164 edits
- 98.90.89.30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked August 2014 - 131 edits
- 98.90.89.147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) July 2014 - 150 edits
- 2602:306:25a5:82a9:705c:aae4:e0ee:c14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) May 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:82a9:d551:2797:332:1bd5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) May 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:82a9:f02d:ff73:c2ed:6417 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) May 2014
- 98.90.88.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) May 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:9999:889:b7ad:88a7:4f79 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) April 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:9999:d489:a526:40d4:e4dc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) April 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:9999:9800:badb:9390:919 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) April 2014
- 2602:306:25a5:9999:45e:9b3c:b2a1:44e7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) April 2014
Some edits are rather strange such as this edit in coffee which simply added "Beans" at the end of a paragraph. Or this edit] on Flush toilet Simply added "July 2014" at the end of a paragraph.
It would seem that a number of articles should be semi-protected. As this has been going on at least since April, the question is for how long? Jim1138 (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have assessed each article based on the level of disruption, how long it's been going on, and whether or not the article has been protected before.
Here's what I did
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- IP 2602:306:25a5:9ce9:1462:6db:edd3:f7fa was blocked by User:Discospinster for 31 hours on August 4. This IP needs to be watched when the block wears off. The three IPs 98.90.89.30, 98.90.89.147, and 98.90.88.42 are all blocked. Additionally, I have covered 98.90.89.30 and 98.90.89.147 with a wee range block of 98.90.89.0/24 (up to 256 users would be blocked) as there does not seem to have anyone else editing from that range. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Good work Diannaa. I have added the three most-heavily contested articles to my watchlist. --John (talk) 08:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hemantmalav88 spamming links to Patrika.com using it as a fake source for copyvio
I discovered that
- If you can find five instances of copy vio, that's enough to open up a CCI case. Please see the instructions at WP:CCI as to how to file a report. Due to the huge burden on the cleanup crew and the legal consequences of continued copy vio, we have been indef-blocking these editors. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm cleaning it up now, so no need for a CCI. And blocking indefinitely. talk) 15:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm cleaning it up now, so no need for a CCI. And blocking indefinitely.
I refer to [107] [108] [109] [110] Editors are unable to interact with each other without accusations of harassment, bad faith, edit warring, snide remarks and incivility etc etc. The last proposal for an interaction or topic ban did not gain any traction due to, I suspect, people being unwilling to read through the impressive walls of text when the two parties argue (I don't blame them, wading through it is about as fun as watching paint dry). There is no relevant dispute resolution process to follow as the two parties literally argue about everything to do with soap opera. —Dark 15:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I remember this story. Neither seemed willing to work on the content disputes that led to their disagreements. I was never really sure who was "at fault"... but yeah, if it's still going on something has to happen to cut this nonsense. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 16:20, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I have tried to get along with that one but, he just follows me around on here. To the point where even you, Dark Falls, commented on it and told him to stop.Cebr1979 (talk) 17:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh, Good Lord, I followed your link
- If there's no desire from either party to solve the content issues using the normal protocols, then the only option I see left for these two is WP:IBAN. Isaidnoway (talk)18:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- While I support an IBAN (preferring a limited length one, such as 3-6 months, but supporting any proposal), I'm concerned that the narrow editing area these two operate in will make a clash inevitable. I'm also always concerned with the possibility of an IBAN turning into a land rush (especially when both editors are in a small topic area like this), but I'm sure those more familiar with IBAN mechanics will inform me that there is no such worry in practice. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You make a good point, Mendaliv, and it crossed my mind too, when posting my IBAN link. I guess the way to look at it is this: If the children won't play nice in the park, first we ask them not to play with each other at all because it upsets everyone else. If they still spoil the park for others then we ask them not to come to the park at all. In the meantime, if they can show us they've grown up now and won't spoil everybody's day, well, then everyone can play together happily again. Begoon talk 19:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Unless someone is prepared to fine-tooth-comb the contribs, an IBAN seems the standard way forward. A gentler approach might be a revert-ban, and a ban on commenting on the other editor while still allowing factual comments on talk pages. Dark will have a better idea whether this is worth trying. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC).
- That is exactly what DarkFalls told Livelikemusic to do! Stop following my edits and, if he really feels that strongly about it, take it to that article's talk page! You can see so here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DarkFalls#Assumptions_being_made_AGAIN Cebr1979 (talk) 06:18, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- However, Livelikemusic paid that no mind, continued on as though that never happened, and has been reverting my edits ever since without ever once going to an article's talk page! I mean, while I agree that perhaps some of my responses to him are not always the most professional... I don't follow his edits, I don't revert his edits (unless it's undoing a revert he unfairly did to me), and, as DarkFalls also pointed out, I've come a long way in a short time and have stayed clear of Livelikemusic!!! If any of you were to wake up to reverts by only one user every single morning... you wouldn't eventually CAPS LOCK something back? He constantly accuses me of Wikihounding him yet... I never revert anything he does! I go to a page, make an edit, and he reverts it! He follows me around and the proof is right here on this site for all of you to see! The Summer Newman comments made by him in that conversation on DarkFalls page I linked to prove it: that page isn't even on his WatchList but he knew of my edit and had even directed other editors to go look at it!!! He told DarkFalls (again in that conversation I linked to) that he reverted an edit of mine "not even looking nor caring who made said-edit" but, he's had a conversation about THAT very edit going for WEEKS now (and had even commented on that conversation that very same day where he, himself, pointed out that no consensus had been reached but, he went and reverted the edit anyhow)! Would you people not be going bonkers if this was happening to you??? Now, I'm the one who has "come a long way" and Livelikemusic hasn't budged one bit or listened to what an admin told him to do and I'm still potentially in jeopardy of losing the topic I most enjoy editing? My God!Cebr1979 (talk) 06:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Rich Farmbrough:, I share similar concerns with Mendaliv regarding the narrow scope of interest of the two editors involved and its implications on IBAN. But that remedy is probably the only solution short of a topic ban that could potentially fix these communication issues. Considering the amount of bad blood between the two, anything less would be completely ineffective. —Dark 16:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Unless someone is prepared to fine-tooth-comb the contribs, an IBAN seems the standard way forward. A gentler approach might be a revert-ban, and a ban on commenting on the other editor while still allowing factual comments on talk pages. Dark will have a better idea whether this is worth trying. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC).
- You make a good point, Mendaliv, and it crossed my mind too, when posting my IBAN link. I guess the way to look at it is this: If the children won't play nice in the park, first we ask them not to play with each other at all because it upsets everyone else. If they still spoil the park for others then we ask them not to come to the park at all. In the meantime, if they can show us they've grown up now and won't spoil everybody's day, well, then everyone can play together happily again. Begoon talk 19:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I support an IBAN between these two users; the multiple issues they and some others create involving anything in the
Formal proposal
- Survey
- Support as proposer. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support Not sure if I'm supposed to be involved in the survey or not but, for the record, I support this. However, I don't think the proposal is clear enough. I think not reverting each other's edits and not talking to or about each other in talk pages (whether directly or indirectly) need to be specifically mentioned in the proposal, not just in the conversation above. I also think that where and to whom any infractions are to be reported need to be specifically stated in the proposal. All our Ts need to be crossed and our Is need to be dotted or we're going to all be back here again (and I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm not the only one who doesn't want that to happen).Cebr1979 (talk) 06:59, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support Perhaps 3 months will be enough to learn new editing and behaviour patterns with regards to each other. Worth a try. Begoon talk 01:18, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support per my statement above. chatter) 03:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Discussion
I have a question regarding this: How will it be enforced? Because that's pretty much the exact same thing DarkFalls has already told Livelikemusic (with the exception of not talking to each other in talk pages) and only Livelikemusic didn't listen. I followed the rules but, am back here once again anyways. So... if/when Livelikemusic breaks the rules again, who is going to be watching him and actually do something because noone watched or did anything last time, that's for sure! If anyone wants to see diffs as proof, let me know! Cebr1979 (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Blocks. Someone breaks the interaction ban, they're facing a block to prevent them from continuing to break the interaction ban. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 00:33, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- And this would happen how? You are going to follow-up on this or check-in on us now and then or I have to come running to you every time he breaks a rule this time? And if I don't come running to you, to whom do I run 'cause I'm not doing this again. Lastly, what reassurance do I have that this time someone is going to do something if (when) he breaks the rules? Cebr1979 (talk) 04:03, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Interaction bans (along with several other kinds of restrictions) are publicly logged at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions. To report a violation of the interaction ban, you would post (with supporting diffs) at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Uninvolved admins then assess the report and administer sanctions if deemed warranted. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- And this would happen how? You are going to follow-up on this or check-in on us now and then or I have to come running to you every time he breaks a rule this time? And if I don't come running to you, to whom do I run 'cause I'm not doing this again. Lastly, what reassurance do I have that this time someone is going to do something if (when) he breaks the rules? Cebr1979 (talk) 04:03, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Posting to encourage more comments, or closure, before this gets archived as previous linked discussions were. There seems to be an issue, given the history, so maybe letting it drift off to archives again isn't the best result? Begoon talk 18:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Vandalism on Anniversary
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is it possible the users 112.208.42.204 and Zabbylicious are the same person? Because these revisions look similar. m'encarta (t) 15:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Vandal has been reported at Quack, quack. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:40, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Peculiar Password Change Request
Hey, all, I'm an admin but I have no idea what this actually means. About 2 hours ago, I got the 'Someone (probably you, from IP address 75.84.49.129) requested a reset of your password for Wikipedia'. Headers show it's from Wikipedia, not spoofed or anything. The IP translates to a Roadrunner/rr.com address in Southern California.
I had not requested it, since I was asleep at the time, but I happened to wake about 10 minutes later. I changed my password nonetheless, and went about other things. About half an hour after that, I got another request, reading: Someone (probably you, from IP address 2605:E000:84C3:5500:FC15:732D:FF9:4FAD) requested a reset of your password for Wikipedia'. I can translate this out of Unicode, but it's all gibberish to me; symbols and a few CJK Ideographs. I'm not sure what's up, or whether it's something to be concerned about (I've never seen an IP masked like this before), and I'm not quite technical enough to hunt it down.
Anyone else getting these pwd change requests, or is this just an attempt on me? Can anyone get any usable info out of that code? And is the fact that the IP came through to me masked like that a cause for concern? --Thespian (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, a friend gave me the clue that it was an IPv6 address, and surprise surprise, it traces to a rr.com/Time Warner cable modem (https://www.ultratools.com/tools/ipv6InfoResult?ipAddress=2605%3AE000%3A84C3%3A5500%3AFC15%3A732D%3AFF9%3A4FAD). --Thespian (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The second IP isn't masked. it's an IPv6 address. ahh, nvm, you figured that out. It's probably someone trying to nab your account. Protonk (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- that I figured out. though I'm not sure how they intend to do that from an pwd change request that comes to me. --Thespian (talk) 19:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- You should probably change all your passwords just to be on the safe side.--v/r - TP 19:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I use LastPass and every single password I have is different. So I'm not worried about that; I've change the pwd already, but since it's happened 3 more times, I figure I'll stay logged in change it once an hour or so has gone by without a ping on that. Anyone know if blocking an IP makes them unable to request anon password changes? --Thespian (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since I can really sympathize with a victim of intended identity theft, I'd like to help out. Email all your passwords and I'll change them for you. EEng (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Dude. This seems to be an attempt to get control of an admin account. I've never been sure why this sort of joke is considered funny, since it's insulting at the base with an assumption that you're talking to someone dumb.--Thespian (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Unless you believe I really do want to gain control of his passwords, here in plain view of thousands of editors, it must be that I assume he (or she) is savvy enough not to do it. EEng (talk) 21:51, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- He stole mine. And as a result I've now become a mindless chattering moron sock. See, proves it! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Unless you believe I really do want to gain control of his passwords, here in plain view of thousands of editors, it must be that I assume he (or she) is savvy enough not to do it. EEng (talk) 21:51, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Dude. This seems to be an attempt to get control of an admin account. I've never been sure why this sort of joke is considered funny, since it's insulting at the base with an assumption that you're talking to someone dumb.--Thespian (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- You should probably change all your passwords just to be on the safe side.--v/r - TP 19:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since your nick is not "I AM Luther John Matthews Patrick McDonald IV from Timbuktu" and in fact probably quite common it's easily possible it's someone misremembering their account name or that they had one. Also if you are worried about being targetted, I would concentrate on ensuring all emails you use are securr. They obviously don't have access to your Wikimedia account or know its password or wouldn't be trying a reset. (If they're smart they woul reset by email so would only try those they had access to but they may not be smart.) Of course the most likely thing if thry are targetting you is they want to causd needless panic. Nil Einne (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- (Needless panic such as, for example, public suggestions that someone "reset all your passwords just to be sure". Sigh.) --talk) 00:04, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- (Needless panic such as, for example, public suggestions that someone "reset all your passwords just to be sure". Sigh.) --
Alright, from someone whose dealt with this multiple times...
They pretty much try to log on as you, but instead of putting in a password click the 'forget' link on the logon screen in a silly attempt to 'hack' into your account. Since the password reset email goes right to the email you register with WP, it's always terribly ineffective and as far as I know, has never succeeded unless they have your email password, and they can never redirect the email their way otherwise. It's an 'attack' that's gone back for years for editors who have dealt with very obnoxious IP's. Unless every single password you have is simple like 'password', these IP's never succeed in doing anything more than annoying you for a few seconds in GMail.
It's good that you changed your password, but as for the other emails that come in, unless you did forget your password, you can safely ignore any new ones that come in, keep the password you have and just report the IP listed to ANI for attempting the 'password 'hack'' trick, which should allow them to get an admin-rendered timeout.
Vandalous/retaliatory speedy deletion tagging
Shortly after an article he'd created was deleted earlier tonight, User:Eminemdissesyou24 went on a vandalism spree, tagging a few dozen articles for A7 deletion without regard to their subject's actual notability or significance. He's done this before, though not on this scale. He does not provide appropriate edit summaries, nor does he notify article creators. This editor appeared about a month ago, and began editing using templates and otherwise indicating they weren't a new user. I don't see any reason to believe this user is here to edit constructively (particularly in light of the username), and support an indefinite block, but your mileage may vary. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 03:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with your assessment. I noticed this when you removed the CSD from Shane Dollar which is on my watchlist. Eminemdissesyou24 seems to be on a bit of spree and needs to be stopped. - MrX 04:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:06, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Block evasion
And now, it appears, resuming vandalous speedy tagging as User:70.54.121.125, though not as actively. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
SMcCandlish page move ban: request for clarification
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- I often misunderstand, but think it's clear that he should not actually move, while a listing like this is exactly the required prior discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't see the issue here if it was a controversial move request at WP:RM. He wants to move a page, he realises others might not agree, so he should start a discussion about it. That's exactly how we should do things - consensus will play out. His request for a technical and uncontroversial move appears to have been declined. I would also see a problem if SMcCandlish had started a bulk (eg: 20+) of requested moves, but not one. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)11:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is patently vexatious, frivolous nonsense by Justlettersandnumbers on at least three levels, and this editor's pattern of following me around and making bad-faith assumptive objections to misc. things I do or say (RM is just a request/suggestion, not an action!) with regard to biology articles is starting to look like obsessive wikistalking. Is that acceptable to the community?
- Capitalization of the common names of bird species (e.g. "Bald Eagle" vs. "bald eagle") was formerly a contentious issue on WP, settled at RfC sevearal months ago. It has nothing whatsoever to do with names of landraces or breeds of domestic livestock, even if some of them are birds. That contention is over and wouldn't be applicable to this RM even if it were not.
- MOS:LIFE is crystal clear that "general names for groups or types of organism" are given in lower case (except where containing a proper name or starting a sentence). This includes landraces. (Formal breeds are not addressed, and it's expected that an RfC will determine at some point whether to capitalize them, as most specialist sources do and most general-audience sources do not; that debate is not relevant here.] Not only is there no question as to what MOS:LIFE means here, it even specifically uses a landrace, the Van catas an example, to be extra-double-plus clear about it. There, ergo, is no reason whatsoever to expect that the requested move would in fact be controversial. Manufacturing a "controversy" simply because one is, at best, confused as to what MOS says, or at worst trying to get another editor's goat, is not indicative of any actual meaningful controversy.
- Finally, my move ban specifically directs me to use RM process, not manually move things myself, and I am complying. The uncontroversial moves subprocess of RM is part of RM process, by definition. Hounding me for having a faintly different idea of what is or is not "controversial" smacks of though-crime, and in this case, policy clearly backs my interpretation anyway. RM process is flexible, and procedurally accounts for RM nominations believed to be noncontroversial to be flagged with ease by anyone as not noncontroversial. I.e., there is a process for this, and running to ANI is not it.
- I have to suggest that WP:BOOMERANG should be applied to Justlettersandnumbers, as this ANI filing isn't just vexatious and frivolous, but an abuse of process, as well as assumptive of bad faith. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @the talk page and there is no RM template. Nor is the page in Category:Requested moves. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)12:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
- Not really; the move idea is now moot.
Details:
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| Here's me listing it at RM, with a very clear rationale. If it's been contested, "The admins who patrol RM/TR ... take it to a full discussion". I.e., it's not my place to re-open it in a different venue if there's already a process in progress for dealing with it. Frankly, I'm pretty sure I'd be instantly attacked at ANI for doing so myself, given the high level of personal animosity directed at me by various bird-focused editors who will not cease blaming and verbally savaging me for their failure to carry the day in an RfC they instigated themselves. (See my talk page, and WP:OWN-ridden axes to grind.) article that explains this, not individual POV forks on color variants, that pretend landraces don't exist.
UPDATE: The article has been changed unilaterally to remove all suggestion that it's a landrace (and the lead actually falsifies what one of the sources says, as I've detailed on the talk page). Meanwhile the editor who removed "landrace" from the article has since then found a source (see talk page again) saying it is a landrace (but has not self-reverted deletion of that fact from the article text). Regardless, a) the move would no longer be uncontroversial while the article is in this uncertain state, so I have no objection to the RM not proceeding nor being relisted; b) there was no reason at all to think it controversial at the time, and changes to the article, which may need to be reverted, have simply given an illusion of controversy. Even the editor doing this deletion and later sourcing of the landrace fact says "what a mess!" about the entire article, which is severely broken in other ways (talk page again). Perhaps some bird and livestock editors should spend more time researching and getting their articles in some kind of factual shape than bashing people, for what look like personality-based reasons, in admin noticeboards over rename suggestions they can't even mount a factually-based objection to without tripping over themselves. If anyone cares here, the facts coming to light are that there's at least one Swedish duck landrace and at least one Swedish duck formal breed probably derived from the former, in at least four color variants, and we probably really need a Swedish duck |
- — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Perfectly acceptable. The admins who patrol RM/TR (I'm one of them) are supposed to give consideration to anything listed there and if they think it will be controversial they take it to a full discussion. And if anyone then contests it, the move will be reverted and a full discussion will be started. If he was repeatedly listing articles at RM/TR that had to get taken to a full discussion as controversial then that would be a problem, but I don't see that as the case here. This is the way SMcCandlish should be handling his restriction. Jenks24 (talk) 11:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I see it differently. I do a fair amount of move requests. When I see a number form the same editor, I usually spot check some, but if I know the editor and their history of getting things right, I do not review carefully every one. I think this is a reasonable practice, as there are sometimes hundreds of move requests in a batch. Technical and uncontroversial ought to mean exactly that - virtually no one is likely to object, and the main checking ought to be that the editor didn't mangle a name. However, User:SMcCandlish is well aware that capitalization issues have been contentious. Maybe this class is different, but the way to determine that is to propose or two on the talk page, and make sure there is no push back from the community. It may well turn out that SMcCandlish is right, but if arguments need to be made and accepted, it does not qualify as a technical request.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- WP:FACTION formation), is not "push back from the community", it's one individual with a personal issue. Another unilaterally acting editor who PoV-pushes the article in question to remove information in a way that fundamentally changes the article and makes it seem like the move idea didn't make sense, but who then later fesses up on the talk page that, oops, there actually was a reliable source after all for the info they just removed, is not push back from the community, it's a mistake. As already noted, there was no reason at all to expect that move to be controversial; a similar one I requested just before it was not, nor was another a day or three ago. The waters have thus already been tested. The "controversy" here is entirely fake, generated by animosity in one case, and false changes to the article in the other. If you think that capitalization changes should be prohibited from speedy RM procedure, you'll need to take that up at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves and get RM's instructions rewritten. I decline to be prosecuted for following the RM procedures you say you are so familiar with, after another ANI case (involving the very same vexatious complaint-filer) explicitly directed me to follow those procedures (after that ANI case was blatantly canvassed[111] to vote-stack against me, no less). I've already blown my entire day's editing time dealing with this nonsense. ANI does more harm than good yet again. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 16:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I see it differently. I do a fair amount of move requests. When I see a number form the same editor, I usually spot check some, but if I know the editor and their history of getting things right, I do not review carefully every one. I think this is a reasonable practice, as there are sometimes hundreds of move requests in a batch. Technical and uncontroversial ought to mean exactly that - virtually no one is likely to object, and the main checking ought to be that the editor didn't mangle a name. However, User:SMcCandlish is well aware that capitalization issues have been contentious. Maybe this class is different, but the way to determine that is to propose or two on the talk page, and make sure there is no push back from the community. It may well turn out that SMcCandlish is right, but if arguments need to be made and accepted, it does not qualify as a technical request.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
It does seem that Justlettersandnumbers should back off, stop hounding SMcCandlish, and let the settled capitalization issue be. SMcCandlish is just doing the thankless work of implementing a consensus in places that have it wrong still. Where is the controversy in that, except in so far as Justlettersandnumbers wants to stir one up in each place? Dicklyon (talk) 17:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Instead of trying to weasel his way around a topic ban, McCandlish should just stop any activity connected with moves. Unless he actually likes being dragged to ANI every few days. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a topic ban, I have a well-defined temporary ban on directly moving articles (topic has nothing to do with it), with instructions to use the RM processes, which I'm doing. Stopping "any activity connected with moves" would clearly be unreasonable, especially since most of my RMs (and CfRs) go the way I propose them, and always have, because I think before I propose them. It's like you think an instruction to obey traffic laws, after I was found to be speeding, means never, ever drive again. Thanks, though, for making your personal hostility clear, and making what sure looks like a threat to abuse the ANI process for disruptive, vindictive purposes. Did you have anything else collegial to add, anything else conductive to collaboration? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:35, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The complainant here says otherwise. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your comment doesn't seem like it can pertain to anyting I've said (my first two sentences are matters of record, not opinion, and the last three were directed to you, and Justlettersandnumbers hasn't had anything to say about them). I'm wondering why you feel empowered to speak for Justlettersandnumber, who is capable of making their own posts, instead of addressing what I've raised with you above, like calling me a weasel and trying to reinterpret my very narrow editing restriction to a broad one that contracts its own wording. Do you actually fail to see the conflict between
"should just stop any activity connected with moves."
(you) and"may still participate in RM discussions, discussions over titles and so forth"
(previous ANI decision)? The restriction was narrow with the specific intent that it not restrict more broadly. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:51, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your comment doesn't seem like it can pertain to anyting I've said (my first two sentences are matters of record, not opinion, and the last three were directed to you, and Justlettersandnumbers hasn't had anything to say about them). I'm wondering why you feel empowered to speak for Justlettersandnumber, who is capable of making their own posts, instead of addressing what I've raised with you above, like calling me a weasel and trying to reinterpret my very narrow editing restriction to a broad one that contracts its own wording. Do you actually fail to see the conflict between
- The complainant here says otherwise. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a topic ban, I have a well-defined temporary ban on directly moving articles (topic has nothing to do with it), with instructions to use the RM processes, which I'm doing. Stopping "any activity connected with moves" would clearly be unreasonable, especially since most of my RMs (and CfRs) go the way I propose them, and always have, because I think before I propose them. It's like you think an instruction to obey traffic laws, after I was found to be speeding, means never, ever drive again. Thanks, though, for making your personal hostility clear, and making what sure looks like a threat to abuse the ANI process for disruptive, vindictive purposes. Did you have anything else collegial to add, anything else conductive to collaboration? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:35, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment': The line between a "landrace" and a "breed" in animals is ill-defined. In either case, this duck is not a species, , so the decision at WP:Birds is inapplicable to articles on breeds or landraces. A the RM there is a reasonable case made to keep the capitalization. While it is true that SMC has not "moved" an article, he is a bt over-focused and has been quick to engage in personal attacks (as here) against those who thwart his efforts in the slightest degree. JLAN is not hounding or stalking SMC; JLAN edits articles on European domestic poultry, this no doubt cropped up on his watchlist. SMC would do well to focus his efforts on species of animals, not breeds. His responses here need to be scrutinized, as his pattern of attacking others is what the real problem is here, IMHO Montanabw(talk) 21:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Irrelevant and incorrect anyway. This ANI is not about what that difference might be, it's about whether it was somehow wrong to propose at RM to move an article that said it was about a landrace to an article title that complies with MOS with regard to landraces. As for breeds and landraces, the article MOS:LIFE only applies to species is incorrect; again, just actually read it. Finally, I note this post by you in which you seem to indicate that you're using ANI as some kind of entertainment/sport. Given how frequently you seem to go out of your way to clash with me, and to stir up trouble against me, like canvassing[112] WT:BIRDS against me in a recent ANI discussion about sheep disambiguation, well, I'll let others make up their own minds about that. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:51, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Irrelevant and incorrect anyway. This ANI is not about what that difference might be, it's about whether it was somehow wrong to propose at RM to move an article that said it was about a landrace to an article title that complies with MOS with regard to landraces. As for breeds and landraces, the article
- Comment This user was banned from making moves. The Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests is explicitly not for simple moves based on simple capitalization (it suggests those be done directly). It's for moves where a user can't make the move themselves for technical reasons. What was the single problem with making the move directly? The topic ban and the topic ban alone. This was just an attempt at an end run around a topic ban. If this user had suggested discussion first that would be fine, but the topic ban is not a technical glitch in need of repair. If the ban was meant to disallow undiscussed page moves, then submitting a request to Technical requests is still, by definition, a request for an undiscussed move. I don't think asking for an undiscussed move to be processed can be framed as "participating in RM discussions", without standing on your head. Whether it was contentious in subject or not, it was an attempt at a move without discussion. Actionable? I don't know, but if it's allowed, it doesn't seem to prevent the issue he was topic banned in order to prevent. The user could say every discussionless move they request couldn't be considered contentious, and move the same number of articles without any discussion. That's a fence with an open gate, that just makes more work for others, and changes nothing else. Since I don't think the user should assume a similar request would pass
Someone could reasonably disagree with the move
, I would guess they won't try it that exact way again. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's a bunch of contorted WP:WIKILAWYERingand indefensible negative assumptions. Instructions on procedural pages (like those I quoted directly above), as well as editing restrictions, are written in plain English and mean what they say, not what they can, with herculean effort, be twisted into meaning to someone who wished they said something different, like an unstated ban on using one vs. another means of injecting a page into RM processes.
- That's a bunch of contorted
In detail:
|
|---|
|
- Frivolous ANI filings are what "makes more work for others". The actual encyclopedia work created by my RM request, as opposed to WP:POINTy ANI filing, was our discovery that the the article was in fact terribly sourced and incorrect, which has inspired a round of investigation and improvement. But that sure does make me a bad guy, doesn't it? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:51, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Beyond a bit of a filibuster there, some points remain. Looking over your topic ban discussion, it seems like the spirit of it was that you attempted moves without discussion, the topic ban was to prevent disruption, and filing a technical move request involves asking for a move that does not typically involve discussion. You are still setting yourself up as the main initial judge of whether there should be a discussion or not. You think that's non-controversial (and that anyone who disagrees with how obviously good your actions are must be a bad actor here), but it looks like your topic ban is because the community thought you weren't great at deciding which moves should be done without discussions. You say your restrictions are
may still participate in RM discussions, discussions over titles and so forth, but not page moves"
Looking at the closing admin's advice here, it seems that the topic ban regards your behaviour and judgement more than whether any page move was a particularly controversial one. Filing a technical page move request seems a lot closer to a page move than it does to an initiation of discussion. I just think you're interpreting your topic ban so liberally that it could (not will) have no actual effect. I make no claim to know your motives and that's immaterial to whether there's potential for disruption. I can assume masses of good faith and still see that if you nominate page moves in a way that generally avoids discussion, based on your own self-assessment of when discussion is suitable, that other editors may become concerned and that you may cause avoidable drama. I didn't think any action needed to be taken, because I had assumed you would do what you could to avoid predictable drama in the future. Reading your replies, whew....you do seem fairly committed to the belief that you know when something deserves discussion and when it's absurd for anyone to question you. __ E L A Q U E A T E 10:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Beyond a bit of a filibuster there, some points remain. Looking over your topic ban discussion, it seems like the spirit of it was that you attempted moves without discussion, the topic ban was to prevent disruption, and filing a technical move request involves asking for a move that does not typically involve discussion. You are still setting yourself up as the main initial judge of whether there should be a discussion or not. You think that's non-controversial (and that anyone who disagrees with how obviously good your actions are must be a bad actor here), but it looks like your topic ban is because the community thought you weren't great at deciding which moves should be done without discussions. You say your restrictions are
- Frivolous ANI filings are what "makes more work for others". The actual encyclopedia work created by my RM request, as opposed to
- There doesn't appear to be anything really wrong here. Yes, it can be argued that WP:RMTR is a way to evade scrutiny, but at the same time, contesting those edits costs 1 edit, and if someone actually wants to keep an eye on this ban, simply watching that page as opposed to watching N other pages sounds like a good idea to save time. (Much unlike this walls-of-text/innuendo discussion...) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
User Technmaticity approving articles apparently w/o reviewer rights
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Technmaticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Who does not seem to have wp:reviewer rights Technmaticity rights has been 'approving' AfC articles and moving them to article space.
- Approval notice of Nakul Ambilkar diff
- Approval notice of Luis Valadares Tavares diff
- Move of Luis Valadares Tavares to article space
- Move of Nakul Ambilkar to article space
These articles do not appear to be ready for article space. Jim1138 (talk) 07:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- His blanking of this section here is a bit telling on what we are dealing with. John from Idegon (talk) 08:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for blanking out this area, actually I was confused a little. Anyways, do we need to have some specific rights in order to accept articles? It looks like the answer would be yes, that's why I've been put up here. The thing is, that I do know that which article to accept or not and I was following those specified rules only to accept the articles. It is holiday here, therefore I just thought of helping you guys by reviewing some severe backlogged articles. If you don't like this act of mine, then I'm ready to not to do so again in future (but please tell me that what do I need to do in order to have article approval rights?) Anyways Thanks and I'm sorry for what I did due to lack of information. Sorry again. Technmaticity (talk) 09:04, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello, Technmaticity. Please read Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants to see the requirements for reviewing draft articles. The problem is, if articles are moved to mainspace when they are not ready they may be deleted, which is unfair to the developers of the draft. One of the drafts is full of promotional language, and the other is a BLP which is almost unsourced. —Anne Delong (talk) 09:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- ok so I've read that page and it looks like I need to have minimum of 500 edits and at least 90 days old account. So from now on, I'll try to achieve this target and then in future I shall apply to review articles with full authority. And one more thing, If I'll get selected as the reviewer then is there any rules specified that "I would need to be review x number of articles in y time-period?" And can you also link me to the "guide to review" or something similar. And just one thing, is everything clear now? I mean; will I be excused this time for doing changes without permission? ...Thanks for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Technmaticity (talk • contribs) 10:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @pending changes, not AfC. This ambiguous name has caused many misunderstandings, leading users to request rights they don't actually need. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- AfC has been greatly harmed by below-par reviewers in the past, which is why the restriction is now in place. The review is often a new editor's first contact into Wikipedia, and rejecting a review for no good reason, or passing it through only for it to wind up at AfD is extremely harmful to our well-being as it gives the newbie the impression they're fighting a loosing battle in contributing. You have got to have a solid grounding of basic Wikipedia policies for article inclusion to review successfully, and I personally think the easiest way to demonstrate this is a good track record at AfD via AfD Stats. Of course, now that tighter restrictions are in place, the pool of available and competent reviewers is reduced, leading to an insane backlog which is more and more frequently "jump started" by people just writing things in mainspace anyway as they can't be bothered to wait. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- A related question:
- AfC has been greatly harmed by below-par reviewers in the past, which is why the restriction is now in place. The review is often a new editor's first contact into Wikipedia, and rejecting a review for no good reason, or passing it through only for it to wind up at AfD is extremely harmful to our well-being as it gives the newbie the impression they're fighting a loosing battle in contributing. You have got to have a solid grounding of basic Wikipedia policies for article inclusion to review successfully, and I personally think the easiest way to demonstrate this is a good track record at AfD via AfD Stats. Of course, now that tighter restrictions are in place, the pool of available and competent reviewers is reduced, leading to an insane backlog which is more and more frequently "jump started" by people just writing things in mainspace anyway as they can't be bothered to wait. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ritchie333: I can't see anything mentioning that WP:REVIEWER userright is required in the criteria, nor anything in the gadget code that enforces it. Some editors on the list aren't in the usergroup (e.g. QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV and Pigsonthewing). Could you clarify? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 14:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, WP:REVIEWER isn't a requirement, though it was considered. You have to add your name to a participants group, after which the tool will work, but there is a "soft" requirement of 500 edits (ie: you can still add your name if you're under that but you might well be reverted out of the group). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 14:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Still, as I mentioned, this user doesn't appear to even be in the list... Shouldn't that have prevented script use (or at least use of the official script)? Begoon talk 14:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, WP:REVIEWER isn't a requirement, though it was considered. You have to add your name to a participants group, after which the tool will work, but there is a "soft" requirement of 500 edits (ie: you can still add your name if you're under that but you might well be reverted out of the group). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Just a quick heads up that one of the improperly moved entries, Praneet Sah, appears to have been the subject of some previous spurious editing at AFC. This led to the SPI here. I'm not sure that there is a direct connection, but Technmaticity seems to be attempting to promote Sah at the
- Which I just removed again, as uncited, before you posted this, after they reverted your removal... Praneet sah was, indeed, one of the related articles: moved here... They dropped the surname capitalisation after this G11: Praneet Sah Begoon talk
- Update: RHaworth actioned my speedy G11 on Praneet sah (thank you). Worth noting that Technmaticity contested the speedy instantly, which is hardly consistent with the position of "sorry, I was just helping to fix a backlog because I had time", nor with the fact that they "approved" that article at AFC as their first action after 10 innocuous edits for autoconfirmed, then edit-warred to add the guy to Online journalism in India. I added to the SPI at Cerefo. I remain concerned that they could (it seems) access AFCH scripts immediately they were autoconfirmed. I find that quite worrying. Begoon talk 17:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I note that Technmaticity removed sourced mention of Amit Agarwal to replace with Praneet sah. What not just add Pranset sah? Amit Agarwal was not wikilinked in the article at that time. I did start this discussion: Talk:Online journalism in India#Removal of mention of Amit Agarwal Jim1138 (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- FYI: Technmaticity blocked for using multiple accounts: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Cerefo Jim1138 (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I note that Technmaticity removed sourced mention of Amit Agarwal to replace with Praneet sah. What not just add Pranset sah? Amit Agarwal was not wikilinked in the article at that time. I did start this discussion: Talk:Online journalism in India#Removal of mention of Amit Agarwal Jim1138 (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Update: RHaworth actioned my speedy G11 on Praneet sah (thank you). Worth noting that Technmaticity contested the speedy instantly, which is hardly consistent with the position of "sorry, I was just helping to fix a backlog because I had time", nor with the fact that they "approved" that article at AFC as their first action after 10 innocuous edits for autoconfirmed, then edit-warred to add the guy to Online journalism in India. I added to the SPI at Cerefo. I remain concerned that they could (it seems) access AFCH scripts immediately they were autoconfirmed. I find that quite worrying. Begoon talk 17:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Legal Threat
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have noticed this legal threat of Maura Kelley (talk • contribs against user Helpsome. Please act. JimRenge (talk) 19:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Quote: "Please send me your email address so I can have the professional wildlife experts and their attorneys contact you." JimRenge (talk) 20:54, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
User blocked for legal threats. Gamaliel (talk) 20:01, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have unblocked the user following her withdrawal of the legal threat. Gamaliel (talk) 15:38, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Faced verbal offensive abuse from the editor.
The User:Flaming Ferrari likes to revert edits without any reason. This editor consider himself superior in all terms. Check out his/her summary details of his/her talk page history. Moreover he/she constantly revert my edits without any logic or reason with respect to 'See also' section. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone irrespective of experience and years spent editing wikipedia. Why I am being Abused, just for 'See Also' section? Is it fair? Should I quit editing?Elibrarysg (talk) 23:46, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is a bad edit: WP:UP#CMT. No comment on the see also reverts, but at least on Denis Alexander it looks like Flaming Ferrari broke 3RR (the first removal is a revert of the July 2 addition). --NE223:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is some massive edit-warring across multiple articles going on here, and neither side is blameless. WP:TPO. Regarding the content, I've explained my own opinion at Talk: Devendra Prasad Gupta. Regarding the "verbal offensive abuse", I'd say Elibrarysg's edit summaries are no better than Flaming Ferrari's. Huon (talk) 00:21, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes sir, you are right my edit summaries are useless and meaningless as compared to 'f' being used by the editor who considers himself invincible may be in his/her own eyes. I hope 'You scratch my back I scratch yours' is not being followed here in this comment. Elibrarysg (talk) 07:30, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is some massive edit-warring across multiple articles going on here, and neither side is blameless.
- Flaming Ferrari was never notified of this thread. I will do so now. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for losing my cool with
- Tag Team Work will suppress individual editing which might would have lead to consensus. Example, I Inserted 5 to 6 images on the page of List of King's College London alumni which was reverted/blanked by Flaming Ferrari firstly without any reason on 14:38, 3 August 2014, then I reverted his changes of blanking page. After that his/her editing summary says as follows (reinstate Archdeacon of Salford to list.... I removed the images of minor academic figures as these were not in keeping, but by all means add pictures of whoever you like. Perhaps a picture of every deceased MP would quickly bore readers too.). Ultimately on 4 August 2014 all of my upload images was deleted by User Krd on Commons without giving any notice for removal or justification of photos on Copyright Grounds. It might be possible I had some error in manual editing with respect to few images but not all of them. Now this is what we call here Tag Team or in other words 'Scratch theory'. Flaming Ferrari applies his personal opinion along with other editors sharing some personal interest or gains or mental satisfaction. That's why in practical terms as per my current experience we never use Wikipedia as a reference or even part of it in academic circles because it can be edited by anyone or in this case some invincible editors who prefer boredom/entertainment over information/encyclopedia. Carry on with your scratch theory. Elibrarysg (talk) 07:37, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, the issue here is that you have not provided proof that they have been released under the CC-0 licence. I see you have tagged the files as "OTRS sent", but I have searched for the emails, and none appear to have been sent. I strongly recommend you study copyright rules more closely. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Kwamikagami, once more
Some weeks ago we had a big thread here about
- This is ridiculous. Where are these "personal attacks"? An editor (not you), who has since essentially admitted he was wrong on the point of fact he was so enraged about, said I should be sanctioned for insisting that we follow our sources, the basis for any edit on WP, and for following the lead of an admin who closed a debate. You're now bringing me to ANI, saying I should be sanctioned for defending myself when brought to ANI. — kwami (talk) 09:18, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- You made a specific accusation of a specific passage in some article being severely misrepresented, claiming that "anyone who uses a ref like that [...] either hasn't read their own ref or is being dishonest". This is clearly a serious personal attack, unless you finally demonstrate (a) what passage in precisely what article you are referring to (note that people were referring to multiple articles by the same author(s), so this is not trivial), (b) where and by whom that article was being cited wrongly. You have been evading this question when challenged. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not evading. I can't remember the details of discussions that happened several months ago. I do remember Cagwinn insisting that Lepontic be classified as a Continental Celtic language, when any intro to Celtic will tell you that CC is not a cladistic node. After being repeatedly challenged over a period of months (by you at times, if I remember correctly), he finally admitted that of course it's not actually a cladistic node, but that somehow that's irrelevent. Then there was the ref being used for the claim that some linguists classify Lepontic as a dialect of Gaulish. The ref used to support that was a footnote saying that "Gaulish" was a useless term, incoherent unless taken as a synonym for Celtic. Hardly a good ref, since that's not how we use the term Gaulish at Gaulish language. Someone eventually did turn up a source that actually supported the claim, which was good, but then they insisted that we keep the inappropriate source because it was more accessible. "Personal attack" is supposed to mean ad hominem attacks or abuse. It's not a "personal attack" to criticize people for the inappropriate content of their comments or edits. — kwami (talk) 09:39, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Kwami you should stop believing that we are blind or stupid. Why you had ignored ANI report that was made against you in June 2014? See Wikipedia:DONTGETIT. I read what you type for removing references but I also look for references and consensus yet you ignore them. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:50, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- How have I disrupted anything? Where have I made any recent edits to any Celtic article? I received notice that charges were being made against me, so I defended myself. Last time I didn't defend myself after the initial charge, because I thought it was too petty to bother with, I was sanctioned, and one of the sactioning admins said it was my own fault, that I deserved to be sanctioned even if I hadn't done anything wrong, because I hadn't bothered to defend myself more vigorously. So this time I figured I'd better defend myself, so that doesn't happen again, and now I'm being brought up on charges for defending myself! FP is charging me with "personal attacks" for pointing out that people have used a ref that does not support the point they're using it for, and now you first criticize me for "ignoring" the ANI report, and then call me "disruptive" for not ignoring it! These damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't attacks are one of the reasons I've been glad to be away from WP. — kwami (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Kwami says "any intro to Celtic will tell you that CC is not a cladistic node"; I suppose Kwami, despite showing no specialist knowledge of Celtic linguistics, knows better than Ranko Matasović (University of Zagreb, author of the Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic, Brill, 2008)?
- Matasović, Ranko, "Insular Celtic as a Language Area", in: Tristram, Hildegard L. C. (ed.), The Celtic Languages in Contact, Universitätsverlag Potsdam, 2007, pp. 93-112.
- P. 93, n. 1: "In broad terms, two theories are competing: (1) the traditional view, defended, among others, bu K.H. Schmidt (e.g. Schmidt 1977) and J. Koch (1992) classifies British together with Gaulish (and Lepontic, which is probably just an early offshoot of Gaulish) into Gallo-Brittonic, while the Goidelic languages remain as a separate branch of Celtic. (2) An alternative theory, defended by K. McCone (cf. e.g. McCone 1996, 2006, especially p. 171 ff.) and supported by P. Schrijver (Schrijver 1995), sees British and Goidelic as a separate Insular Celtic branch, while Gaulish and Lepontic are viewed as the Continental Celtic branch. Celtiberian, as is becoming increasingly clear, is almost certainly an independent branch on the Celtic genealogical tree, one that became separated from the others very early."
- Kwami is already showing signs of re-starting his edit war, as he is now arguing again on Talk:Lepontic language. Cagwinn (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- As I have already pointed out there, Continental Celtic as generally understood includes Celtiberian, so the Matasović quotation is irrelevant. There is no agreement about the place of Lepontic in the Celtic tree, so there is no basis for this very special definition of Continental Celtic as Gaulish + Lepontic that to my knowledge nobody uses in practice. It's best to treat Celtiberian, Lepontic, Gaulish and Insular Celtic as independent branches of Celtic and Continental Celtic not as a branch but a term of convenience analogous to evolutionary grades in biological taxonomy. In cladistic terms, Continental Celtic is paraphyletic. "Cladistic node" and "branch" imply an analogy with "clade", a mono- or even holophyletic subgroup. Continental Celtic is not on the same level. There appears to be a common feeling that only widely accepted families and branches should be included in infoboxes. Just like "Fish", "Amphibia" and "Reptilia" are avoided in vertebrate taxoboxes, so should "Continental Celtic", "Gotho-Nordic", "Italo-Celtic", "Graeco-Aryan" and the like be avoided in language infoboxes. (Note also Paraphyly#Linguistics: the analogy of Continental Celtic with Formosan is even better.) Kwami is only following this general sentiment. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The issue of paraphyletic nodes is not what the present troubles with Kwamikagami are about. The issue some weeks ago was his general stance of intransigent edit-warring, which had most lately been about another minor point where he was trying to push an obviously well-sourced point out of the article on the basis of some rather blatantly OR editorializing against what the sources said, and right now it is about him making unfounded accusations of serious misbehaviour against other editor, apparently on the basis of his own sketchy and faulty memory of what actually happened, and refusing to retract or substantiate those accusations. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- As I have already pointed out there, Continental Celtic as generally understood includes Celtiberian, so the Matasović quotation is irrelevant. There is no agreement about the place of Lepontic in the Celtic tree, so there is no basis for this very special definition of Continental Celtic as Gaulish + Lepontic that to my knowledge nobody uses in practice. It's best to treat Celtiberian, Lepontic, Gaulish and Insular Celtic as independent branches of Celtic and Continental Celtic not as a branch but a term of convenience analogous to evolutionary grades in biological taxonomy. In cladistic terms, Continental Celtic is paraphyletic. "Cladistic node" and "branch" imply an analogy with "clade", a mono- or even holophyletic subgroup. Continental Celtic is not on the same level. There appears to be a common feeling that only widely accepted families and branches should be included in infoboxes. Just like "Fish", "Amphibia" and "Reptilia" are avoided in vertebrate taxoboxes, so should "Continental Celtic", "Gotho-Nordic", "Italo-Celtic", "Graeco-Aryan" and the like be avoided in language infoboxes. (Note also Paraphyly#Linguistics: the analogy of Continental Celtic with Formosan is even better.) Kwami is only following this general sentiment. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- How have I disrupted anything? Where have I made any recent edits to any Celtic article? I received notice that charges were being made against me, so I defended myself. Last time I didn't defend myself after the initial charge, because I thought it was too petty to bother with, I was sanctioned, and one of the sactioning admins said it was my own fault, that I deserved to be sanctioned even if I hadn't done anything wrong, because I hadn't bothered to defend myself more vigorously. So this time I figured I'd better defend myself, so that doesn't happen again, and now I'm being brought up on charges for defending myself! FP is charging me with "personal attacks" for pointing out that people have used a ref that does not support the point they're using it for, and now you first criticize me for "ignoring" the ANI report, and then call me "disruptive" for not ignoring it! These damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't attacks are one of the reasons I've been glad to be away from WP. — kwami (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Kwami you should stop believing that we are blind or stupid. Why you had ignored ANI report that was made against you in June 2014? See
- I'm not evading. I can't remember the details of discussions that happened several months ago. I do remember Cagwinn insisting that Lepontic be classified as a Continental Celtic language, when any intro to Celtic will tell you that CC is not a cladistic node. After being repeatedly challenged over a period of months (by you at times, if I remember correctly), he finally admitted that of course it's not actually a cladistic node, but that somehow that's irrelevent. Then there was the ref being used for the claim that some linguists classify Lepontic as a dialect of Gaulish. The ref used to support that was a footnote saying that "Gaulish" was a useless term, incoherent unless taken as a synonym for Celtic. Hardly a good ref, since that's not how we use the term Gaulish at
- You made a specific accusation of a specific passage in some article being severely misrepresented, claiming that "anyone who uses a ref like that [...] either hasn't read their own ref or is being dishonest". This is clearly a serious personal attack, unless you finally demonstrate (a) what passage in precisely what article you are referring to (note that people were referring to multiple articles by the same author(s), so this is not trivial), (b) where and by whom that article was being cited wrongly. You have been evading this question when challenged. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
This current issue, while I'm leaning towards FP's assessments, seems to be a bit too subtle for me, I'm afraid. The previous discussion at /IncidentArchive844 seemed to have been much clearer and more actionable. Should we unarchive it for further discussion? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Given that linguistically untrained Wikipedians will have trouble following this debate, although the biological analogy might help, perhaps the issue is better discussed on the talk page of WikiProject Languages or Linguistics. People there should understand the issue more readily and there would be a better chance to achieve a local consensus on the issue (inclusion of paraphyletic and other not strictly cladistic groups in infoboxes). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstood me (in a somewhat condescending manner, but never mind). I'm saying the issue is subtle with regard to the relevant edit warring and civility policies. These issues do not appear to be half as serious as those laid out earlier. Indeed, if this was just a content dispute, it wouldn't be appropriate on ANI anyway. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:27, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruptive Editions of User
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rpo.castro - Persistent WP:Disruptive editing, WP:Vandalism as well, and certainly WP:Edit warring.
In the past made several disruptive editions on pages now protected. For the moment he is editing List of Portuguese football champions (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Taça de Portugal (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). He extened it's behavior to Portuguese football league system (an old target) and Campeonato de Portugal also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 13:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not only does this report appear to be retaliatory for a thread opened against the IP above, but it's the IP's second or third attempt to create one—and he's deleted at least one of the prior threads. —C.Fred (talk) 14:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's he who started retaliating. I deleted at least one of the prior threads? LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruptive Editions of User
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usu%C3%A1rio:Teles - Persistent WP:Disruptive editing, WP:Vandalism as well, and certainly WP:Edit warring. This user keeps reverting my revisions which are telling the truth unlike his and protects the pages so no one can edit them! He's not even portuguese, he's brazilian, and he doesn't know more of our competitions than me! He is changing the words for the competitions we use in Portugal to those they use in Brazil, which goes against the rule. It's looks like if you are brazilian and administrator or something like that you can do whatever you like because if some portuguese tries to change a brazilian portuguese word to a european portuguese one it's revisons are reverted because of that rule! There are many pages related to Portugal which are writen in brazilian portuguese and not in european portuguese and if you try to change them they may not only be reverted but also be protected if you insist on reverting them so no one can edit (like this user)! They will also block you (like this user again)! This user even protects the discussion page so no one can complain! He also deletes my arguments when I revert his editions! Not only he is using the wrong name of the competition but also he is editing a page which doesn't have to do with Brazil but with Portugal! He must be blocked! This page is a example of it: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Tr%C3%AAs_Grandes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 14:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- You do realize this is the English wikipedia? There isn't anything we can do on another Wikipedia site. Ravensfire (talk) 14:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- And you do realize that the portuguese wikipedia sent me here to complain? LOL If there isn't a complaints page in portuguese what should I do? And even if it exists it is dominated by brazilians like the rest of the portuguese version of the site so they will give him the reason! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I know none of us is an administrator on pt.wiki. There is literally nothing we can do to help. It looks like the place to go is pt:Wikipédia:Pedidos/Outros. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not, it's not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 15:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- You can try Meta then, but if a calm discussion (and I trust you've tried the calm discussion, not the tone you used here) on your Wikipedia site doesn't produce anything, you may be facing a scenario where the consensus view is against you and you may need to accept that. Those are your options. Ravensfire (talk) 15:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- What's that? I'm only reacting like this because certain users act like dictators and it pisses me off! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.80.80 (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- You can try Meta then, but if a calm discussion (and I trust you've tried the calm discussion, not the tone you used here) on your Wikipedia site doesn't produce anything, you may be facing a scenario where the consensus view is against you and you may need to accept that. Those are your options.
- Not, it's not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 15:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I know none of us is an administrator on pt.wiki. There is literally nothing we can do to help. It looks like the place to go is pt:Wikipédia:Pedidos/Outros. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- And you do realize that the portuguese wikipedia sent me here to complain? LOL If there isn't a complaints page in portuguese what should I do? And even if it exists it is dominated by brazilians like the rest of the portuguese version of the site so they will give him the reason! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.57.166 (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruptive Editions of IP-hopper
81.193.33.116 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) - Persistent WP:Disruptive editing, perhaps WP:Vandalism as well, and certainly WP:Edit warringSeveral of his IPs were recently blocked, he created an account as CoUser1 (talk · contribs) (also blocked) as you can see here and here. Although, he still IP-hoping, avoiding the temporary blocking imposed. Warnings were left in his previous IP talkpages (85.243.159.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) was the latest before the actual), which he abandoned after 3rd warning, and started to user the actual IP adress.
In the past made several disruptive editions on pages now protected. For the moment he is editing List of Portuguese football champions (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Taça de Portugal (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (which I've made a request for page protections). Rpo.castro (talk) 09:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Those vandal IPs are too far apart to be rangeblocked, unfortunately. I don't really like to semi articles like these two, as it would shut out too many good-faith IPs. I've tried Pending changes for three months on both, hope it helps. Bishonen | talk 10:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- Seems to be quite reasonable. Let's see. I will just revert the editions for the version before the IP changes/war.
- PS: by mistake I've asked for one of the articles indefinite semi-protection instead of temp semi protection. Best RegardsRpo.castro (talk) 12:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- He keeps removing the content at Taça de Portugal, apparently hasn't cottoned onto the pending changes having been applied. If it were me, just block the current IP and see if he stops. BethNaught (talk) 13:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
He changes the IP every time he is blocked. Created an registered account also. Extened it's behavior to Portuguese football league system (an old target) and Campeonato de Portugal also.Rpo.castro (talk) 13:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
<rm accusations of vandalism and dumbassery>
- Per that comment, and sundry other accusations of vandalism and dumbassery, recommend/request semi-protection of pages concerned (and perhaps this board, for the sock-puppetry) and blocking the current IP. BethNaught (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the unsigned comments per WP:DENY. Just revert and ignore. I really don't have much faith in blocking these IPs — just as you say, the person will simply change IP — but I've blocked 85.245.57.166, as a, well, gesture. Probably more to the point, I've semi'd the redirect Campeonato de Portugal, (there's not much reason for good-faith IP's to be editing that) and pending-change protected Portuguese football league system. I realize it's irritating to see the IP's continue to attempt to vandalize the articles despite the PC protection, but it won't be accepted, and won't reach our readers. Rpo.castro, do you mean another registered account has been editing disruptively, besides CoUser1? Because s/he seems to have learned a lesson from their recent block. Bishonen | talk 15:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC). P.S. I've semiprotected this board for a few hours. Bishonen | talk15:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- Bishonen the user I've mention was CoUser1. Since the blocking s/he is almost inactive. About, the PC protection seams to be working, since now are a few users looking at the article, so the IP changes don't stick. Rpo.castro (talk) 16:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
please add the needful to ebola page
Resolvedneed help w ramble men — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.16.108 (talk) 20:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Not done This isn't Talk:Ebola, and there's no need to list the victims. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Admins, looking into this, we've got a conspiracy theorist of questionable use to the site. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- What are "teat results"? --NE2 05:43, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Milk? 204.101.237.139 (talk) 18:48, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Talk page misuse by blocked User:COD T 3
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please look at the behavior of
Diffs of attacks follow:
17:29 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACOD_T_3&diff=619984412&oldid=619982766
20:18 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACOD_T_3&diff=619984412&oldid=619982766
I request that COD T 3 (the sockmaster) be indeffed for sock-puppetry, and that talk page access be revoked as being used other than for unblock requests (both for an RFC request, not in itself disruptive but not permitted, and for personal attacks).
Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Strange KEEP postings at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laura McCullough
Dear editors: Should this sudden pattern of KEEP !votes by new accounts be looked into? If so, should I notify all of the editors plus the creator of the page under discussion? —Anne Delong (talk) 00:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- They're not really worth it. Dusti*Let's talk!*00:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Anne Delong isn't the closer for the AFD, so that it isn't she who should strike or ignore the votes. The AFD is still running. A comment in the AFD for benefit of the closer might be appropriate.
- Anne: If you added some references to the article, thank you. I would say that you, as another !voter, don't need to worry too much about the strange KEEP postings. Thank you for calling them to the attention of a larger segment of the community. It does appear to be an effort to recast a notability issue as a gender issue, and there is an issue of conflict of interest with the subject as one of the authors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Anne: If you added some references to the article, thank you. I would say that you, as another !voter, don't need to worry too much about the strange KEEP postings. Thank you for calling them to the attention of a larger segment of the community. It does appear to be an effort to recast a notability issue as a gender issue, and there is an issue of
- In her tirade on the Help page, she threatened that she might post "all over Facebook about what I believe is a gender based attack". Presumably those are her fans responding to some off-WP message she's delivered. Deor (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've added {{Not a ballot}} the the AfD in the case she is attempting to rally support off-wiki to keep the article. —Farix (t | c) 00:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks to you all for your replies. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:18, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, they've been canvassed from Facebook (although at least one canvassed voter had actually !voted "delete"....... )--Mdann52talk to me! 07:41, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks to you all for your replies. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:18, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- If they're fan votes at all, they're surely unlikely to be from more than one fan, in view of the same unusual formatting of the word "Keep" by all four of them: caps followed by double hyphens. Unless they were following one template which had been suggested to them. (I was trying to pass it by a CU last night on the admins' IRC channel, but man, that place is dead these days.) I've notified User:Lmccullough of this thread, which is surely something that should be done. Bishonen | talk 08:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
She's been
Various epithets
Does this fall under the category of "demeaning fellow editors, an article subject, or any other person, on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex or gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression" and as a result considered to be
) 00:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)- No. Get a sense of humour. - Sitush (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's not constructive and it's not sensetive to the gender gap. There are better ways for Hell in a Bucket to explain his viewpoint.--v/r - TP 00:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Definitely it was an ill advised comment. We could argue over whether it violates NPA, or justifies some type of sanction on civility grounds. But Sitush is right about the question asked. The comment does not violate that particular principle in that case. There is no indication that the comment was made based on any of the protected characteristics. Monty845 00:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's not constructive and it's not sensetive to the gender gap. There are better ways for Hell in a Bucket to explain his viewpoint.--v/r - TP 00:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- No. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 00:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- What gender gap? This is all BS promoted by, mostly, a vociferous group of people who, if they chose to apply the anonymity that they are entitled to, could just get on with doing what we're supposed to be here to do. I see as many "gutter" words about men as women in that message. Take you social consciences elsewhere. - Sitush (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is that an edit made by an actual contributor to this project? Dear me. Mackensen (talk) 00:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Is "Wikipediot" OK? Or is that the One Banned Word? --NE2 00:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep in mind that when an editor talks like a low-life, it does no harm to you, it only reveals the character of the one saying it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm thinking userpage desecration! And Baseball bugs if a person is that superficial and surface oriented it's better to not have that person around, you will never get to below the surface because all they can see is the surface. what a sad place to be stuck on the surface always knowing more is there but never able to get there...talk) 01:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The bot wiped out your entry in an edit conflict. Just as well, since your comment really doesn't make sense. But whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- iF YOU CAN'T SEE BELOW THE SURFACE THEN YES IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER BUT IF YOU LOOK BEYOND JUST THE SURFACE YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED HOW MUCH IS THERE. talk) 01:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Are you saying that ugliness is only skin-deep? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- If I base my answer on your sweeping generalization above sure does. talk) 01:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Foul mouth = foul mind. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Refer to comment about being unable to see past the surface, reread then let sink in and then reread again just so it sticks. talk) 02:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Refer to foul mouth = foul mind and then reread again just so it sticks. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Big feet = big meat. Wait, what was that about womenfolk? --NE2 02:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Refer to foul mouth = foul mind and then reread again just so it sticks. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Refer to comment about being unable to see past the surface, reread then let sink in and then reread again just so it sticks.
- Foul mouth = foul mind. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- If I base my answer on your sweeping generalization above sure does.
- Are you saying that ugliness is only skin-deep? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- iF YOU CAN'T SEE BELOW THE SURFACE THEN YES IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER BUT IF YOU LOOK BEYOND JUST THE SURFACE YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED HOW MUCH IS THERE.
- The bot wiped out your entry in an edit conflict. Just as well, since your comment really doesn't make sense. But whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
Since there has been some question about what was actually said, I will post it here in its entirety:
- I'm sorry to whoever did the thoughtfulness of writing all of the manifesto above but holy shit what a load of bullshit. I'd sure like to see where this is a huge problem on wikipedia, sure every once in a while some moron will come across that thinks he is superior cause he has a dangler...but holy shit 3 days of fucking bickering and whining? Who cares who calls who a cunt, queer, nigger or insert offensive comment. Pull up your big boy pants or panties let's not let those get in a twist either and move the fuck on. AN, ANI and Jimbo's page are not places to solve issues like this, they are places to ferment the discord and draw more people in. Drop the motherfucking sticks and go and beat vandals with the self righteous angst you are putting in this. (Emphasis mine. —Neotarf (talk) 21:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC))
And BTW, he is also mocking this discussion on Jimbo's talk page. Have a nice day. —Neotarf (talk) 02:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- It could be worse. There are several entries on George Carlin's word list that the editor forgot to include in that funny rant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Neotarf. You are quoting improperly by adding emphasis (bolding) where it does not exist in the original. This is a form of exaggeration. If you quote and add emphasis, make sure you note "(emphasis added)." Thanks. —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 06:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Tim. Quite correct, and I have made the necessary adjustments, although it looks like a missed a few; that's what happens when you have 6 tabs open. —Neotarf (talk) 21:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Neotarf highlighted what he sees as the real message. He is quite right to highlight it. It is not its poster's place to lecture others on how they "should" read it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Tim. Quite correct, and I have made the necessary adjustments, although it looks like a missed a few; that's what happens when you have 6 tabs open. —Neotarf (talk) 21:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Neotarf. You are quoting improperly by adding emphasis (bolding) where it does not exist in the original. This is a form of exaggeration. If you quote and add emphasis, make sure you note "(emphasis added)." Thanks. —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 06:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's clear that I was mocking you replying to your thinly veiled attempt at an insult. I like how you are pretending to be a victim and trying to twist it though, keep trying something might stick. talk) 02:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Are you saying you can dish out insults, but can't take them? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's clear that I was mocking you replying to your thinly veiled attempt at an insult. I like how you are pretending to be a victim and trying to twist it though, keep trying something might stick.
- No but when they are petty i reserve the right to mock you, care to give it a try Bugs? I'm not complaining at all, notice I didn't start the thread, I haven't misrepresented what happened, I think this is a whole big talk) 03:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, your vulgarity-laden rant, highlighted above, definitely qualifies as "petty". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your vastly enlightening surface analysis, I'm sure we are all enriched having been privileged with it. talk) 03:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Glad to be of service, George. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Aha I knew you weren't acting in bad faith you just seem to have confused me with someone else. talk) 03:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your vastly enlightening surface analysis, I'm sure we are all enriched having been privileged with it.
- COATRACK is about article content. This discussion is about TPOC, WIAPA, and RPA. Lightbreather (talk) 20:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, your vulgarity-laden rant, highlighted above, definitely qualifies as "petty". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- No but when they are petty i reserve the right to mock you, care to give it a try Bugs? I'm not complaining at all, notice I didn't start the thread, I haven't misrepresented what happened, I think this is a whole big
The words are being referenced, not used. So no. Though said in an aggressive tone, his usage of these epithets is akin to every usage on the article
- Fruitlessly, indeed. —Neotarf (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- ... and I've reverted the refactor again.. I would ask that you abide by the policies on refactoring other's comments, just because you couldn't manipulate it to suit your needs within the arbcom case doesn't mean you can just remove it. Thank you and by all means have a great day. talk) 19:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is no place in this project, Jimbo's page or otherwise, that is suitable for your puerile nonsense. Grow up, please, and learn to present your point without being ) 19:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- That comments attacks no one or any groups. It reflects the futility on focusing on a word rather then the message behind. An, ANI and Jimbo's page isn't solving the problem or improving the encyclopedia. The whole point behind that is take the drive you have and move it elsewhere to something productive. Even the emphasis added comment above cherry picks what is said to present that persons view. There's lots of comments I don't like on wikipedia but I don't remove them just because they are coached in language I disagree with. At some point a person has to be able to look past whats on the surface, that's the whole point of the above. If you judge a book just on the cover you may miss the message or opportunity inside. I'm sorry if you can't or won't accept that but honestly that is your limitations not mine and I've not broken any policies, attacked anyone or otherwise opined other then that there could be a different avenue of using your energy. talk) 19:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- If the cover of that book reads like the way a low-life talks, why should anyone bother opening it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You are missing out on some good books. Chillum20:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Name a few. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is a page turner. Chillum20:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Funny, attention-getting cover, and unlikely to tell me anything I don't already know. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- This is a page turner.
- Name a few. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You are missing out on some good books.
- If the cover of that book reads like the way a low-life talks, why should anyone bother opening it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- That comments attacks no one or any groups. It reflects the futility on focusing on a word rather then the message behind. An, ANI and Jimbo's page isn't solving the problem or improving the encyclopedia. The whole point behind that is take the drive you have and move it elsewhere to something productive. Even the emphasis added comment above cherry picks what is said to present that persons view. There's lots of comments I don't like on wikipedia but I don't remove them just because they are coached in language I disagree with. At some point a person has to be able to look past whats on the surface, that's the whole point of the above. If you judge a book just on the cover you may miss the message or opportunity inside. I'm sorry if you can't or won't accept that but honestly that is your limitations not mine and I've not broken any policies, attacked anyone or otherwise opined other then that there could be a different avenue of using your energy.
- There is no place in this project, Jimbo's page or otherwise, that is suitable for your puerile nonsense. Grow up, please, and learn to present your point without being ) 19:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- ... and I've reverted the refactor again.. I would ask that you abide by the policies on refactoring other's comments, just because you couldn't manipulate it to suit your needs within the arbcom case doesn't mean you can just remove it. Thank you and by all means have a great day.
This discussion is still open, right? What HiaB's remark was - was a personal attack. And
- Why is it that so many actual personal attacks are ignored but this is an issue(non-issue)? There are some naughty language and the only insults are to a hypothetical person. We do encounter moron's on Wikipedia, we can say that. We just can't call them a moron once we finally meet them.
- Personal attacks have both an attack and a person. As far as I can tell nobody specific is being attacked, rather it is a call for sanity. It is not how I would have expressed myself but it is not an issue for administrative action. Chillum19:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have expressed myself more above. I mocked Neotarf after some passive aggressive behaviors but that comment was not to anyone but an opinion on the situation and overall futility of those avenues for issues such as this and many others raised there. talk) 19:57, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- You would do well to read about "Fighting words". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting article especially that bit about the Jehovah's Witness bit but the relevance to this still doesn't quite ring right. Are you insinuating that the mere mention of those words is enough to be fighting words even when not directed at anyone? How would this apply to our policies we have set here? talk) 20:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- If someone talks like a low-life, they should have no expectation of respect. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:20, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- So what you are saying is a woman with a low cut shirt or a mini skirt should have no expectations to not be raped? Yes I am aware that's hyperbole but so is the above comment and that's why I am highlighting the ridiculousness of the comment with another. talk) 20:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- HIAB, any position sounds ridiculous when taken to ridiculous extremes. This is a straw man argument and a tacky one at that. Your are better than engaging in the logical fallacy of Chillum20:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- HIAB, any position sounds ridiculous when taken to ridiculous extremes. This is a straw man argument and a tacky one at that. Your are better than engaging in the logical fallacy of
- So what you are saying is a woman with a low cut shirt or a mini skirt should have no expectations to not be raped? Yes I am aware that's hyperbole but so is the above comment and that's why I am highlighting the ridiculousness of the comment with another.
- If someone talks like a low-life, they should have no expectation of respect. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:20, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually... (PS: fuck the popo, and the admins too) --NE2 20:51, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting article especially that bit about the Jehovah's Witness bit but the relevance to this still doesn't quite ring right. Are you insinuating that the mere mention of those words is enough to be fighting words even when not directed at anyone? How would this apply to our policies we have set here?
- You would do well to read about "Fighting words". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Personal attacks have an attack and a person (target) or persons, per WIAPA bullet 1: "Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor, or against a group of contributors. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual orientation, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse." (emphasis mine) And how does that section end? "These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done." HiaB's rant had a target: every WP contributor who is complaining about civility. Lightbreather (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's a stretch and you know it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- They ignore the comments about the moron with a dangler who thinks he's superior and a couple others because it doesn't suit their preferred course of action. It's gradually changed over the course of the original complaint til now. talk) 20:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- They ignore the comments about the moron with a dangler who thinks he's superior and a couple others because it doesn't suit their preferred course of action. It's gradually changed over the course of the original complaint til now.
- That's a stretch and you know it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have expressed myself more above. I mocked Neotarf after some passive aggressive behaviors but that comment was not to anyone but an opinion on the situation and overall futility of those avenues for issues such as this and many others raised there.
- And by the way the edit warring on Jimbo's page needs to stop now. That is a great way to get blocked. Jimbo can remove it if he wants. Chillum19:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would ask them to stop removing a legitimate comment. I don't know what else to do it's not actionable but if I have three people grouped on me like that not sure how to proceed because I do not plan on removing it. Honestly at this point I am in a pretty combative mood over it too. talk) 20:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Is that what this "trolling" is about [117]? And most above also disagree that it is legitimate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes that is what they called trolling, templates are easier and I have twinkle so it is easy to let it do the talking and throw a link in there. I am aware there is a strong opinion on templating the regulars or not. I think they are made for a reason and doesn't bother me too much. talk) 20:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Templating the regulars (in this case, one who's been here for 6 years) is a highly patronizing, contemptuous thing to do. But that kind of thing is consistent with what you insist is only "surface" behavior: vulgarisms, patronization, contempt. When will you start revealing that inner beauty that you claim to possess? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- As soon as you open your eyes Bugs, I guess it is up to you. talk) 20:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- No matter what point you might try to make, when you lace it with obscenities, the obscenities become the message. Until you open your own eyes and see that, you'll be stuck where you are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:45, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you can't see the message because of naughty words then you are exhibiting selective blindness. While the whole point could have been made without "bad words" the presence of them does not make the point unclear. If the obscenities become the message for you then that is something happening on your end. Chillum21:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, you've got it wrong. It is not your place to lecture others on how they "should" read a message. The message is however it's perceived. Obscenities are used for shock value and aggression, and they obscure whatever the alleged "real" message is. When someone talks like a low-life, they have no reasonable expectation of being regarded and treated as anything else. If you remove the "naughty words", as you childishly call it, there's almost nothing there. So, the obscenities are, in fact, the real message. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:18, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you can't see the message because of naughty words then you are exhibiting selective blindness. While the whole point could have been made without "bad words" the presence of them does not make the point unclear. If the obscenities become the message for you then that is something happening on your end.
- No matter what point you might try to make, when you lace it with obscenities, the obscenities become the message. Until you open your own eyes and see that, you'll be stuck where you are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:45, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- As soon as you open your eyes Bugs, I guess it is up to you.
- Templating the regulars (in this case, one who's been here for 6 years) is a highly patronizing, contemptuous thing to do. But that kind of thing is consistent with what you insist is only "surface" behavior: vulgarisms, patronization, contempt. When will you start revealing that inner beauty that you claim to possess? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes that is what they called trolling, templates are easier and I have twinkle so it is easy to let it do the talking and throw a link in there. I am aware there is a strong opinion on templating the regulars or not. I think they are made for a reason and doesn't bother me too much.
- Is that what this "trolling" is about [117]? And most above also disagree that it is legitimate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would ask them to stop removing a legitimate comment. I don't know what else to do it's not actionable but if I have three people grouped on me like that not sure how to proceed because I do not plan on removing it. Honestly at this point I am in a pretty combative mood over it too.
Ok Bugs I can only show you the water it's your choice whether you drink or not. Cheers.
- Your core complaint seems to be that it's up to your target to read your message the way you supposedly intend it, rather than the way it comes across. That mindset falls into the "patronizing, contempt" category, just as templating a regular does. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not only Carrite's talk page. —Neotarf (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- And you've been here over 2 1/2 years. However the user tries to justify his behavior, there's a goodly amount of consistency to it: Vulgar, patronizing, contemptuous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- 4.5 yrs actually and I actually agree with this essay talk) 08:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- 4.5 yrs actually and I actually agree with this essay
- And you've been here over 2 1/2 years. However the user tries to justify his behavior, there's a goodly amount of consistency to it: Vulgar, patronizing, contemptuous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not only Carrite's talk page. —Neotarf (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Can an admin please close this? It's clear nothing good will come of discussing it further and at this point Bugs is just adding needless heat to the discussion. 91.232.124.147 (talk) 21:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- When LC starts sticking his ugly mug into it, it probably is a good idea to close it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
While I might have some sympathy for "use-mention" distinction, there is no doubt this posting was going to offend a significant number of people. The same point could easily have been made without doing that. Therefore the post is gratuitously offensive and the poster should reflect that this is not acceptable. I have no idea if this is a pattern of behaviour, if not lets all move along. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 1 August 2014 (UTC).
Brought to ArbCom
- LT910001 has opened up an ArbCom case based on all of the drama started by Eric Corbett's use of the word that shall not be used again and has included everyone who's commented here and Jimbo's talk page, particularly those who have reacted negatively in some fashion.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for posting this,
- Eric Corbett is the reason that this week of drama mongering on both sides has taken place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- In fairness he hasn't mentioned everyone who has commented. I don't think this is productive, though, and I will make my thoughts clear there. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:23, 2 August 2014 (UTC).
- But I commented all but once in this thread (prior to this arbcom mention) and 3 times in the thread where this shitfest started. I'm far from involved and I do not want to be part of something where I'm just expressing amazement that people are still mad over one person's actions.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- That was the whole point. He said the word CUNT, people were going batshit crazy. Words only have the power you give them. You can fuck or you can make love, does the word fuck make that action any more or less dirty? The answer is no. You can say feces or shit, does it make it smell any better? Yes I'm aware I'm not perfect and yes I'm sure a more level headed person could have phrased it differently but I'm not now nor ever will I be an administrator so I will have to deal with being a "low life" with no expectation of respect and be true to who I am and let the people here who want to live in fantasy castles in the cloud where everything is perfect fix the world on wikipedia. talk) 07:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I find it ironic that, by the standards of those pursuing some sort of action against HiaB anyway, Bugs has repeatedly called HiaB a low life yet none of those same people have called for action against Bugs for the "incivility" of his remarks in this thread. Capeo (talk) 14:27, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Welcome to Wikipedia, where the first editor to cite a policy is plausibly deemed to be true unless evidence proven otherwise. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hell it's even funnier when one of them tell another editor to "Go fuck yourself" [[118]] the double standard is quite extreme. It's ok when they do it but if anyone else does it it becomes a huge issue. I learned long ago that ANI is a very very unpredictable beast, Bugs has been like this for any years and at one point if memory serves was even restricted from posting here but I may have confused hm with another editor. talk) 20:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hell it's even funnier when one of them tell another editor to "Go fuck yourself" [[118]] the double standard is quite extreme. It's ok when they do it but if anyone else does it it becomes a huge issue. I learned long ago that ANI is a very very unpredictable beast, Bugs has been like this for any years and at one point if memory serves was even restricted from posting here but I may have confused hm with another editor.
- Welcome to Wikipedia, where the first editor to cite a policy is plausibly deemed to be true unless evidence proven otherwise. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I find it ironic that, by the standards of those pursuing some sort of action against HiaB anyway, Bugs has repeatedly called HiaB a low life yet none of those same people have called for action against Bugs for the "incivility" of his remarks in this thread. Capeo (talk) 14:27, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- That was the whole point. He said the word CUNT, people were going batshit crazy. Words only have the power you give them. You can fuck or you can make love, does the word fuck make that action any more or less dirty? The answer is no. You can say feces or shit, does it make it smell any better? Yes I'm aware I'm not perfect and yes I'm sure a more level headed person could have phrased it differently but I'm not now nor ever will I be an administrator so I will have to deal with being a "low life" with no expectation of respect and be true to who I am and let the people here who want to live in fantasy castles in the cloud where everything is perfect fix the world on wikipedia.
- But I commented all but once in this thread (prior to this arbcom mention) and 3 times in the thread where this shitfest started. I'm far from involved and I do not want to be part of something where I'm just expressing amazement that people are still mad over one person's actions.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Modanlou2014 is a racist troll
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please indef-block this user: His racist edit --188.158.119.202 (talk) 00:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dougweller: I would be inclined to block, in particular because it appears they gamed autoconfirmed to allow them to bypass protection, but as another admin choose to only warn them, I want to get Dougweller's input before proceeding. (Or alternatively, get a bit of support here for a block if they aren't available)Monty84500:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, the "edits" to 08:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- talk) 08:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Indefinitely blocked per 08:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruption and apparent block evasion by User:CUPCAKESLAM23
- Now indefed. For the record, seems to be a sock of talk) 02:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had started an SPI on this user prior to this ANI. Based on the editing pattern and comments made by the user I suspect this user has had other accounts but I just cannot place the past actions.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(talk)02:58, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had started an
Troll in need of blocking
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can someone block this obvious troll Special:Contributions/98.190.243.130. Take a look at their edit history, in particular the obviously intentional message by the article name of the series of edits from 12:35-12:42, as seen in the contrib log for example. User:Baseball Bugs is an editor in case anyone doesn't know. It seems WP:DENY isn't working. Nil Einne (talk) 13:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting trolling method! I give them points for creativity anyway. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think this report is wildly unnecessary. It'd be better to displace on if its a single incident. Thanks AHLM13 talk 18:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's not a single incident, it's a repeated addition of material sourced only to 18:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't a rant against you, Helpsome, but there is nothing in Wikipedia policies that requires a "neutral source". I wish folks would stop using that phrase, it's an oxymoron. Hell, just look at how many times Media Matters for America is used as an RS despite self-labeling as a conservative watchdog.--v/r - TP 18:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- You might have a point there about the "neutral source" and I just read the appropriate section about it (Wikipedia:RS#Biased_or_opinionated_sources) but I guess my problem here goes beyond the agenda of the source and encompasses the agenda of the edit itself. The sentence added would only make sense if Ingram was notable because she was Lois Lerner's direct supervisor and that isn't the case. The addition seems to have been added just to paint Ingram with whatever controversies Lerner is embroiled in. Helpsome (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- We don't require "neutral sources". We do require neutral point of view. Breitbart.com is notorious, even among conservatives, as not being a reliable source. --Orange Mike | Talk20:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Without commenting on WP:UNDUE, this little factoid can be easily sourced from other sources: Washington Examiner, for example. In this case, if this source is unreliable, it is easy to fix. WTucker (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Without commenting on
- You might have a point there about the "neutral source" and I just read the appropriate section about it (
- Forget UNDUE, what about 16:08, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
User: Gringoladomenega
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- User being reported
- Gringoladomenega (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Diffs of the user's reverts
- 18:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC) "Undid revision 620097960 by 95.239.158.103 (talk)"
- Diffs of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page
- Comments:
There is a current discussion taking place on the article's Talk page debating the wording and content of an incident, which Gringoladomenega has been invited to, but does not engage in, instead makes unhelpful and incorrect reverts, including the removal of cited sources and deletion of reported facts without explanation. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:04, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Panhead2014's insistance in edit warring and accusing other people. Just to give you a little background over Panhead's claims, I'll post some links below:
1)WP:FOOTY discussion over his edits in Sergio Busquets and Míchel Salgado, where he claims that I (and some other users) have a personal problem with him (which is definitely not true);
2)The block logs related to the user;
3)His constantly claims that Gringoladomenega is acting wrong and is having a nuisance behavior. In this same discussion it was explained why he was blocked and why his requests to unblocking were denied by five admins.
- Also, Panhead clearly violates WP:3RR. And in WP:FOOTY discussion, is also pretty clear that he doesn't want to reach a consensus, but wants to impose his edits ahead of others. Cheers- --Gringoladomenega talk6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Also, Panhead clearly violates
So how about a defence of your behaviour that has been reported here? Thanks. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:43, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would like to add 00:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I have not made any addition to the Atletico Madrid page, I have no idea what you refer too. I raised this issue after Gringoladomenega, given his previous behaviour, decided to delete links and contributions to an article without, yet again, seeking a consensus or offering an explanation. A discussion was taking part in the Talk to resolve the issue, which the reported member didn't contribute to. He then in response, counter-reported me for incidents that have already been dealt with and resolved and then took it upon himself to bring it to the attention of other contributors to get involved. Panhead2014 (talk) 00:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I cant say I have had the time to follow every second of this but all I am saying is that both of you are editing in a not very good way (on Busquets and Atletico Madrid respectively). You should definately talk and not edit on busquets (I know you are talking but reach consensus first then edit the page, not both at same time that is still edit war) and he should think about the Madrid page. It also seems a bit that you refuse to listen to the other editors and there are some who dont agree with you (I havent seen anyone), but as I said I have not read everything. QED237 (talk) 00:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I haven't contributed to the Atletico Madrid page, why do you say this again after I have just stated otherwise?
As for the Sergio Busquets article; a consensus has been reached, well at least between myself and the anon IP who makes the effort to contribute to the Talk page. Gringoladomenega just deletes things and makes no effort to explain why. Is that acceptable in your view? Panhead2014 (talk) 00:41, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
User Panhead2014
- User being reported
- Panhead2014 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Panhead2014's insistance in edit warring and accusing other people. Just to give you a little background over Panhead's claims, I'll post some links below:
1)WP:FOOTY discussion over his edits in Sergio Busquets and Míchel Salgado, where he claims that I (and some other users) have a personal problem with him (which is definitely not true);
2)The block logs related to the user;
3)His constantly claims that Gringoladomenega is acting wrong and is having a nuisance behavior. In this same discussion it was explained why he was blocked and why his requests to unblocking were denied by five admins.
- Also, Panhead clearly violates WP:3RR. And in WP:FOOTY discussion, is also pretty clear that he doesn't want to reach a consensus, but wants to impose his edits ahead of others. Cheers- --Gringoladomenega talk6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Also, Panhead clearly violates
- He's stalking us (me and Gringo) and trying to find ANYTHING to "incriminate" us. He then told MrScorch6200 about my conversations in Portuguese, but another administrator assured us that writing in English is only obligatory in the pages (of course) and in the discussions related to some page (or something similar). In other words, he's trying to force us out of here, and despite not trying to reach a consensus, he insists that his edits are "perfectly fine contributions" and we are the "certain others" who "insist on ruining" their contributions. Even if everyone is against his ideas, he doesn't want to give up and accept other users' edits.
- In Míchel Salgado, after his persistence, in "Celta" section, a phrase is currently displayed this way: He was loaned for a season to UD Salamanca in the Segunda División, and after his return to Celta became the first-choice right back. If the section is named CELTA, I think there's no need of reusing the same word, because it is clearly explained in what club he was. And, of course, no need of displaying this "right back" in the end, because he wouldn't return and play as a goalkeeper, would he? I would rephrase the sentence this way: [...], and after his return to the Galicians became first-choice.
- And I have to add here that I don't have any type of personal problem with the guy, as he insists on talking that I have.
- Both editors are acting in agressive manor editing back and forth on articles and should discuss content without editing and not as it is now when a talkpage is updated and then article, the second editor comes in and a edits the talkpage followed by article and so on. What is going on in articles 00:16, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Fairly sure this is a rant but it definetly reads like a threat of violence[120]. A block and possible rev-del might be in order Amortias (T)(C) 20:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've hardblocked blocked the IP for 3 months as it seems they've had access to the same one for a while. I don't see a need for revdel. Rjd0060 (talk) 20:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Viewfinder (talk · contribs) on Jacob Barnett
I find Viewfinder (talk · contribs)'s behaviour with regard to this article extremely disconcerting.
Background to the article
- The article is of a WP:BLPand a minor.
- That is the start of the problems, because the subject himself is not able to make an adult decision as to whether he wants to be a public person.
- The subject fails WP:PROF.
- Why is this important? Because from the criteria with which we judge the notability of academics, we judge on achievements (not potential achievements), and what a subject's peers say (not what his mum says). We can thus judge the importance of the article to be very low (and it is an orphan with no potential high value links to it). That his mum thinks he's a genius and tells any media organisation that is willing to listen is not considered important.
- Many of the media stories are known to be unreliable and contain scientific errors or assertions not backed by peer-review or scientific consensus.
- This is pretty serious and it requires editors with some degree of scientific knowledge to be able to be able to sift through the hyperbole. In other words WP:COMPETENCE.
- This is pretty serious and it requires editors with some degree of scientific knowledge to be able to be able to sift through the hyperbole. In other words
Viewfinder (talk · contribs)
- WP:AFD, and only seems now to be interested in this topic. I sense a strong emotional involvement.
- Viewfinder (talk · contribs) has vandalised my comments warning him about his behaviour on talk:Jacob Barnett [122]. I take this to mean that he is ignoring this warning. David Eppstein (talk · contribs) has made similar comments on the talk page.
- Viewfinder (talk · contribs) has and added false insinuations that I was suggesting he was sexually attracted to Jacob Barnett [123] . This I don't like, mostly because I didn't say it, or even remotely insinuate it. I take this very seriously and demand that he retract this statement and apologise. This is not cool.
- Viewfinder (talk · contribs) seems to think that he has a "right" to edit the article [124] - this is a misconception, as it is a privilege not a right.
- WP:OWNershipof the article.
- I note that I have been given an interaction ban for telling another editor that I thought they lacked basic competence, to which they had an enormous fit and said I was insulting them. In that context I don't think I'm allowed to say that ).
I therefore propose a topic ban for
- If anyone else is concerned about my behaviour at Jacob Barnett or competence to edit or discuss that article then please take it to my talk page. Viewfinder (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban The "background to the article" section is largely irrelevant and this calls into question the OP's motivation. WP:DROPTHESTICK goes both ways. --NeilN talk to me16:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban per NeilN.—S Marshall T/C 17:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban. User ViewFinder is certainly not a SPA. Not in the least. I would think the OP might have checked VF's nine years worth of contribution history. The OP's mention of "his favourite minor" was, in this context, understandably perceived by VF as a personal attack, or at least as an allegation of an "inappropriate relationship" (VF's words). VF's competency is not an issue and despite the OP not wanting to directly call VF "incompetent", he instead chose to write a paragraph in order to call him incompetent in a round-about way. Viewfinder is trying to balance the article, and nearly all his changes are immediately reverted. It's not a matter of whether it's a right or a privilege. We are all encouraged to edit and we are all free to revert others' edits. The expectation is to do both responsibly. --RacerX11 Talk to meStalk me21:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Egregious section heading at Talk:Earthquake prediction
I would like admin assistance regarding a section heading at
The offending section was added 14 May by User:Elvey, with an additional comment from 64.134.48.248 (a persistent editor using various IP addresses from Wichita). After a month with no discussion I archived it, which was immediately restored from 64.134.150.40 with the edit summary "Useful information that doesn't need to be archived so quickly." After another month of no discussion I removed it again on 17 July, which User:Joe Bodacious reverted with the comment "We don't need to archive every two months, and in this case, it looks self-serving"; another deletion/reversion followed on 18 and 19 July.
All this stems from various content disputes which these editors took to ANI in a failed attempt to have me topic banned, and constitutes a pattern of repeated behavior intentionally targeting me, having no purpose other than to annoy and harass me, either directly, or by trolling for others to do so.
The relief I seek is to have an admin remove this section from Talk:Earthquake prediction and its archive, and editors Elvey, Joe Bodacious, and the one from Wichita (various IP addresses) admonished for harassment and uncivil behavior. I do not ask that the page history be suppressed (in order to preserve the record of these editors' pattern of edits), but perhaps the edit summaries could be revised to simply "NOTICE: ...". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- User:Elvey has been notified, and notices placed at User_talk:64.134.48.248 and User_talk:64.134.150.40. User:Joe Bodacious has been notified, but might not be able to respond immediately as he has been blocked as a sock puppet. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:27, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Not a good section heading but the criteria for using rev/del don't cover this (nor can we actually change edit summaries, although of course we can hide them). talk) 08:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Not a good section heading but the criteria for using rev/del don't cover this (nor can we actually change edit summaries, although of course we can hide them).
- Isn't WP:TALKNEW pretty clear? Under "Keep headings neutral" (emphasis in the original) it plainly says: ".)
Don't address other users in a heading
". Also, "Never use headings to attack other users
", which is deemed not simply "not good", but "especially egregious". (I have detailed all this at Talk:Earthquake prediction#Discussion of contested removal of section with non-neutral heading beginning "NOTICE" - Deletion from the active talk pages would ordinarily follow archival. Joe's view seems to be that this attack should be permanently memorialized. Shouldn't this sockpuppet's reversions also be "struck out"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't
- TLDR: SRSLY? This is about an edit I made months ago! My comment echoes the views of other editors regarding edits by the user that have lead to similar criticisms of JJ by many other editors on many occasions before and since. JJ ) 07:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I welcome constructive feedback, particularly in the form of an edit to the edit I made that this ANI section dredges up and characterizes as harassment and trolling; the guideline WP:DE and User:J. Johnson's commitment to not revert" to make it demands much admin action that seems all about a tempest in an old teapot. While JJ claimed that "no admin was interested in a topic ban", and that may or may not be true (neither of us has ESP...), what is true is that User:BrownHairedGirl is an admin, and did say at that archived ANI discussion, "... I hope that JJ will moderate his tone and accept the outcome of the RFC. A warning would be appropriate on that issue alone." --{{U|Elvey}} (t•c) 07:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I welcome constructive feedback, particularly in the form of an edit to the edit I made that this ANI section dredges up and characterizes as harassment and trolling; the guideline
- WP:BOOMERANG, because it seems to me that the main effect of JJ's complaint here is to draw attention to JJ's failure to uphold an earlier commitment. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- talk) 08:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Even if all of the foregoing is granted, does that set at naught the plain statement of
- That wording in the talkpage guideline, about not referring to other users' names in headings, is pretty nonsensical and has never reflected actual practice. It used to say a different thing, up to c.2011 or so, which was actually about not addressing other editors, in the sense of talking to them rather than about them (i.e. discouraging headings of the type "Hey, XYZ, why did you revert me?"). Then some people misunderstood "address somebody" as if it meant "refer to somebody", and people started silently fiddling with the wording until it said something totally different.
- What it all boils down to is: headers in talk pages may be about whatever is a legitimate topic of discussion on that page. It is true that normally discussions on article pages should be as little personalized as possible, but if in a given situation an individual's behaviour has been a particular matter of concern, and discussion on the article has had to focus substantially on how to deal with the disruption caused by that individual, then it is only natural that section headings may end up reflecting that, just as they tend to reflect whatever else gets discussed on such pages. If such has been the case here and you've been causing long-term problems on that page, then you'll probably have to live with the idea that other editors will refer to you while trying to clean up. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, I appreciate that explication. I think the essence is that WP:TALKNEW is not as starkly simple as it could be taken, and the plain (naive?) reading of "Don't address other users in a heading", etc., is effectively inoperative, and not an "egregious" offense. Which is fine, I can accept that, as long as we're all playing by the same rules, and on that basis I will withdraw my request. I am greatly disappointed that when I try to have a serious discussion about content certain editors go into attack mode and make this all about me, but I think rebuttal of that is off-topic for this thread. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, I appreciate that explication. I think the essence is that
- That's two administrative admonitions, above. The ownership problems have already come up at ANI on multiple occasions, and on the talk page on umpteen occasions, with JJ and umpteen frustrated other editors. We have no admin action, beyond administrative admonitions. We have
"JJ's failure to uphold an earlier commitment"
. Could the self-imposed commitments be made admin-imposed restrictions? JJ now says that he still (!) thinks the problem is "editors go into attack mode and make this all about me"; it is not. Enough. A lot of good, thoughtful advice has been given to JJ by a lot of editors. Now what? Just revert to the 2011 language? --{{U|Elvey}} (t•c) 20:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's two administrative admonitions, above. The ownership problems have already come up at ANI on multiple occasions, and on the talk page on umpteen occasions, with JJ and umpteen frustrated other editors. We have no admin action, beyond administrative admonitions. We have
- The serious discussion I was trying to have here was whether TALKNEW was applicable to your hounding me from a section heading. Fut.Perf. has offered an explication about TALKNEW which could be taken as a basis for resolution. But this is not good enough (harsh enough?) for you, you just have to keep trying to make this discussion yet another WP:BATTLEGROUND. As I was said: I try to have a serious discussion, and you go into attack mode. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- The serious discussion I was trying to have here was whether TALKNEW was applicable to your hounding me from a section heading. Fut.Perf. has offered an explication about TALKNEW which could be taken as a basis for resolution. But this is not good enough (harsh enough?) for you, you just have to keep trying to make this discussion yet another
- New: Denial of (diff) having violated the restriction, violation of which was previously admitted to (diff) strongly suggests preventative action is needed to prevent further violations! The user's last edit to the article was a revert; (diff) there were many others. See history of JJ's edits to the article. Others are reverts, but not tagged as such (example - diff).--{{U|Elvey}} (t•c) 16:51, 7 August 2014 (UTC) (edited)
- In the period since 25 April (when Elvey claims I committed to no reversions whatsoever) I have made one reversion, of an undiscussed edit by an anonymous IP, lacking even an edit summary, that had misattributed a direct quote. In the edit where he claims a revert "not tagged as such" I rewrote (hopefully clearer) an anonymous edit that misstated the source, and I fixed a corrupted citation to the source. Where he claims "there were many others" he cites edits from March and early April, prior to this imputed restriction, and double-counts one of those. His continual inflation of one into many lacks any factual basis. It amounts to a continuing WP:BATTLE attitude, and deliberate misrepresentation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- In the period since 25 April (when Elvey claims I committed to no reversions whatsoever) I have made one reversion, of an undiscussed edit by an anonymous IP, lacking even an edit summary, that had misattributed a direct quote. In the edit where he claims a revert "not tagged as such" I rewrote (hopefully clearer) an anonymous edit that misstated the source, and I fixed a corrupted citation to the source. Where he claims "there were many others" he cites edits from March and early April, prior to this imputed restriction, and double-counts one of those. His continual inflation of one into many lacks any factual basis. It amounts to a continuing
It's truly vandalism of user_talk:Frmorrison about reverting edits.about Angry Birds Epic
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi. I just investigate with Frmorrison (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) it keeps reverting about Angry Birds Epic and Angry Birds Go!. I swear. I think we can block this user with Frmorrison it shows that reverting edits as a normal paragraph so please. Block this user with Frmorrison before we can reverting edits as same. Thank you Bryancyriel (talk) 00:22, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you are discussing another editor on this page you are required to notify them. I have done this for you now. Have you attempted to discuss this matter with the other editor at all? Coming straight to ANI is escalating the matter dramatically and is just as likely to get you blocked as anybody else. Euchrid (talk) 00:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- OP is forum shopping; they levied this same complaint on the AIV talk page. From what I read of their edits, the reason Frmorrison reverted them was because their edits were incoherent, unsourced and indecipherable, so Bryancyriel, this is not 'vandalism'; please edit appropriately and with proper grammar. chatter) 01:33, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is no vandalism. This is a content dispute and a slow-motion edit war. There has been no vandalism. Frmorrison is repeatedly blanking a paragraph called "Same Games" with the content "doesn't apply," a content characterization. It isn't a good idea to engage in personal attacks on a page that is frequently read by administrators with the "block" button, which can be used for personal attacks. The allegation of vandalism in what is an edit war rather than vandalism is a personal attack. Either the Request for Comments would be better ways to resolve the issue about whether this paragraph should be included than empty complaints of vandalism. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is no vandalism. This is a content dispute and a slow-motion edit war. There has been no vandalism. Frmorrison is repeatedly blanking a paragraph called "Same Games" with the content "doesn't apply," a content characterization. It isn't a good idea to engage in personal attacks on a page that is frequently read by administrators with the "block" button, which can be used for personal attacks. The allegation of vandalism in what is an edit war rather than vandalism is a personal attack. Either the
- OP is forum shopping; they levied this same complaint on the AIV talk page. From what I read of their edits, the reason Frmorrison reverted them was because their edits were incoherent, unsourced and indecipherable, so Bryancyriel, this is not 'vandalism'; please edit appropriately and with proper grammar.
Bots malfuctioning on Portal Business and Economics
Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2014_August_1#Business_and_economics_portal The bot for getting news stopped working on Jan 26, and the Market Indices bots is reporting wrong information. The correct info is on this page: https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Portal:Economy_and_business I've contacted the bots owners to no avail. Lbertolotti (talk) 21:20, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- If the bot operator isn't available to fix it, then you don't have a lot of choice. Pretty much the only thing you can do is post on ♪ talk ♪05:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Continued uploading of untagged images and lack of communication by User:Angelo Trovato
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Angelo Trovato (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user has multiple warnings for uploading images without copyright information, stretching back to May this year and has failed to communicate with other editors. In early July, I tried to make him look at his talk page by deploying a script that displays a message box every time he makes an edit -- see User:Angelo Trovato/common.js. (There was an oversight on my behalf where said boxes do not show on the upload form). Despite this, the user has continued to edit and upload untagged images. This warrants some kind of block, but for how long? MER-C 11:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- I placed a 48 hour block. Many images seem to fall within NFUR, but there are too many other problems to ignore. We need some assurance that the editor has understood the problem and plans to change.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Recycling as the block did not work. MER-C 13:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
user engaging in nothing but disruptive editing
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Plutowuto (contribs) has been engaging in nothing but disruptive editing and vandalism since account creation about 2 weeks ago. he has continued this behaviour despite several warnings from both myself and several other users. his edits generally try to promote nationalistic views and are revisionist in nature as it goes against sourced content. he also does not bother to add sources or an edit summary. he has not engaged in edit warring and all his edits have been detected and reverted quickly by other editors and after warning left on his page he does not edit the same page again. while he is not a particularly malicious editor , his edits have more of a nuisance value for others to keep track of his contribs and check his edits.
all the contribs on his page are of this nature but i have included a few diffs for reference. Pvpoodle (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had already blocked this editor indefinitely before I saw this report. I would have given a fairly short block, were it not for edit summaries such as this one and this one, which convinced me that the editor is not acting in good faith. The editor who uses the pseudonym "talk) 15:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Gcveintee disruptive editing
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Gcveintee has a history of adding unreferenced material and changing information in articles without any references. This person has taken to logging in and out of their account to avoid amassing warnings (see this series of IP edits and then these exact same edits by Gcveintee) The IP address (83.45.202.130) has made an incredible amount of edits changing height and weight and adding unreferenced content to a large volume of articles. If someone with more knowledge than me could look some of these over it would be much appreciated. Helpsome (talk) 13:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have blocked for 48 hrs for vandalism. In the future reports such as this can go to the specialized noticeboard at ) 14:45, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was wondering If someone would have a word with DePiep since he's harassing me (See my talkpage history),
In short He disagreed with a comment I made [125], I explained my reasoning but his reply [126] seemed somewhat argumentative so I removed it stating "Not in the mood to argue over this .... Oppose/Object isn't the correct way, We could argue over this all day but what's it going to achieve ? ... Nothing" - And since then he's resorted to constant childish messages [127]
I do admit that on 1 occasion in frustration I did however tell him to f off which was perhaps not the wisest decision I've made,
Cheers, –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Quite simply, I addressed this user with a question about their admin-posing behaviour (re an AfD relist). But when I started this talk on their talkpage about that, the editor did not respond seriously, repeatedly. My serious questions were not answered - instead, they were deleted (later on it went childish & funny, IMO). Their f-remark was not the only point: the non-replying was basic. Whether this editor is an admin or not (while doing an AfD relist with comments) is not the matter. When they act like an admin, they should take such a question as an admin. If someone takes time to backtrack their talkpage edits, they'll see that Davey2010 is explicitly uninterested to engage. (If any admin here is really interested in reading the diffs, other than the obvious hist, do request). Let me explain: if someone takes admin actions, I am supposed to go to their talkpage first and foremost. That editor then can not delete & hide & say 'not interested'. Bye-DePiep (talk) 04:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- But my reply was serious, As I said your reply was too me argumentative and so Instead of us both arguing I did what I thought was best & bury it under the carpet an moved on, I'm interested in engaging with absolutely everyone, And I've never once said nor hinted that I wasn't interested at all Anyways me need some sleep. –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:32, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Knock it off, both of you. Davey, DePiep is pretty much right about your aversion to votes labeled "oppose" in an XfD; while it's admittedly not the clearest wording possible, it's not totally out there and the explanation and context of the vote should make it pretty clear where the user stands (not to mention that it's what we should be looking at anyway). Putting "your vote will be ignored" in big bold letters was inaccurate and unnecessary. You certainly also let your temper get the best of you fairly quickly, so yeah. DePiep, approaching Davey on their talk page was fine--the first time or two. But after that, if Davey makes it clear that they don't want to talk about it, don't try to force the issue by pestering them. Users are allowed to remove threads from their own talk page; you should not restore them if they do so, and saying things like this doesn't help anything either. If you really think it's that important, and you've tried to engage the user on their talk page (once), you don't get to keep badgering them: take it somewhere else, like here, for example. So I'm calling this one even: the two of you, cut it out. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- OK. Good points. -DePiep (talk) 09:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ah well in that case I apologize for the Oppose comment, I just thought it wasn't correct but I guess I was wrong, Anyway thanks Writ Keeper. I apologize for posting whilst closed but I feel I should at least apologize for my incorrection –Davey2010 • (talk) 12:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Johorean Boy
Johorean Boy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
123.136.107.14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The user was recently blocked for edit warring by Huon now it evading block and make such kind of posts [128] (attacking the admin that blocked him - the edit should be probably oversighted) and [129].
The IP coming from Malaysia the same region that user states that he is from on his user page.--
- Yes, it seems likely to be block evasion, but I'm not sure enough to extend Johoreanboy's block per 14:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC).
Therealkabal
I was first made aware of
- What's quite amusing is that he's linked his Biography" on his website to his non existent user page. Blackmane (talk) 19:20, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- (Milk shoots out nose) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Left them a {{uw-advert3}} as fair warning of the inevitable, near-future indef. Miniapolis 23:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Which he didn't heed. I've blocked. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 14:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks all. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:53, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Which he didn't heed. I've blocked. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 14:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Left them a {{uw-advert3}} as fair warning of the inevitable, near-future indef. Miniapolis 23:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- (Milk shoots out nose) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Need Help with Personal Attacks
User Academiava has repeatedly tried to change the Death section on the following page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premakeerthi_de_Alwis
This murder has been resolved and JVP members have found guilty and sentenced in 1992. I have previously attached a PDF copy of the official judgement from the High Court of Colombo, Sri Lanka in Sinhala language.
However, the wife of the deceased has self published a book blaming the murder on the current Chairman of Sri Lanka Broadcasting Corporation, Hudson Samarasinghe who is a public/political figure in Sri Lanka. Her views have been published on the new media recently but those views are clearly her personal views. I am requesting the immediate removal of content referencing Hudson Samarasinghe in the Death section and revert the section back to the official ruling in 1992 with the Wikimedia PDF link.
This issue has been visited by 4 different independent Administrators and concluded that content that Academiava is insisting on, as inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramya20 (talk • contribs) 19:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I also request an indefinite block on this page after the revert to avoid similar attacks.
Thank you.--Ramya20 (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- For information: Guerillero blocked Academiava as a sockpuppet of blocked user Wipeouting. Academiava is still contesting that, but obviously if the block sticks no further action is needed here. WaggersTALK 12:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The article involved, Premakeerthi de Alwis, only has seven watchers, so if a few more people could add this to their watch-lists, that would be helpful. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
User: Mormography
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here are some rude, insulting remarks by the user Mormography (talk · contribs) towards the end of this section of Talk:Gordon_B._Hinckley#Mark_Hoffman_controversy
It also doesn't seem the first time he's done this. Any thoughts? 70.102.89.182 (talk) 06:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- While he/she is no stranger to controversy the edit being referred to here was made 18 months ago, and Mormography hasn't edited in the last 6 months. If Mormography returns to active editing and makes further personal attacks then by all means raise it here, but it's far too late to be reporting an 18-month-old edit and expecting us to do something about it now. WaggersTALK 12:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
1RR violation
User:Babylons lion has violated the 1RR ArbCom injunction on Template:Iraqi insurgency detailed map. [130], [131], and [132]. Appreciate someone getting on this... -- Veggies (talk) 17:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have formally notified them of the community sanctions in force on the Syrian Civil War and related articles including the Iraq conflict and logged the notification. As its possible they did not previously know of the restriction (The AN/I notice was the first message anyone had every left them) I thing waiting until they do it again before blocking them would be the fair course of action. Monty845 17:21, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I was just about to say prior to Monty's message do you have a link to the injunction and a link the user being notified? Chillum17:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I was just about to say prior to Monty's message do you have a link to the injunction and a link the user being notified?
Well, he violated it again—[133]. Can someone get on this? By now, it's 3RR... -- Veggies (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- And revert the changes so we don't have to wait 24 hours with inaccurate info on the template? -- Veggies (talk) 18:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Blocked 48 hours for violating the 18:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Spambot
It looks like someone is testing a spambot: see the (now deleted) user pages of
- Both of those are now blocked; I don't think there's any other action we need to take at the moment. WaggersTALK 11:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I know: I blocked them. But my point is that these were only found by serendipity, and it looks like someone is testing a tool for an automated spamming campaign. If they succeed in doing this undetected, the next step will be for them to either go for a mass spamming campaign, or (more likely, and potentially more corrosively) to slowly drip snowshoe spam into Wikipedia indefinitely. Whatever happens, I think it's worth keeping an eye out for any more activity like this. -- The Anome (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't worry too much. We have an edit filter (#499) that's set up to detect these types of edits. I know that we have a few admins that sift through it and block the accounts regularly. Mike V • Talk 14:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- What were the URLs? Maybe they should be added to Xlinkbot or the blacklist? Kindzmarauli (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The URLs change constantly, so blacklisting them is not very effective in the long run. These accounts are just one of the many spambots operating. This one is the diet product one. The random text is nothing new as it has been doing that from the start. The aforementioned filter along with #466 detects most of the spambots. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 17:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- What were the URLs? Maybe they should be added to Xlinkbot or the blacklist? Kindzmarauli (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I tell spammers that we have a blacklist. That any link on this blacklist cannot be posted on Wikipedia. I then explain that the blacklist is public and copied by many forums and search engines to block the same links. I tell them that it is on of the most popular blacklists to use to avoid spam links. They generally get terrified of their links being put on the blacklist and back off.
- These are all throwaway, automated accounts. I block them with talk page access disabled without any talk page notice (see my blocking log for the accounts labeled "spambot") as the bot operator doesn't care or even notice. If you follow either filter #466 or #499 for awhile, you start to notice the patterns of the spambots that are running. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
66.7.115.132 and 70.102.89.182 Mark Hoffman Talk Page
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here are some rude, insulting remarks by 66.7.115.132 "You on the other hand want misleading slander against President Hinckley, and therefore is not light, but darkness. Quit this now." and 70.102.89.182 " Fmatmi clearly had motive to portray Hinckley the most negative way possible. That's not scholarship but that's having an ax to grind" towards the end of this section of Talk:Gordon_B._Hinckley#Mark_Hoffman_controversy.
Most likely the same anonymous editor. Request anonymous editing be banned on that particular page. Mormography (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
User Radiopathy
I wonder if someone could have a word with
- I see one case of restoring a removed warning. Everything else seems entirely within policy. Your warning to "keep off", on the other hand, seems rather uncivil. Anyway, this seems entirely related to a disagreement between these two users regarding "Love Me Do", which really should be getting discussed at Talk:Love Me Do rather than through sniping at each other in edit summaries. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 00:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- This person seems to know a lot about how Wikipedia works considering he's an IP who only started editing in May; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Johnny Squeaky/Archive. Radiopathy •talk• 01:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Radiopathy, if you can nail that with a couple of diffs, I'll be happy to block. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- No offense meant toward you Drmies, but Radiopathy will never find those diffs because they don't exist. It you Geolocate the IPs for the investigation cited by Radiopathy and Geolocate my IP, they're thousands of miles apart. Radiopathy is mad because he wasn't able to intimidate an IP with a few threats. Look at his history. Yes I know a lot about Wikipedia; I've never denied that. I've read it for over ten years and edited with IPs for six years. My internet service changes my IP from time to time; that's beyond my control. And the last time I checked, Mr. Radiopathy, IPs can edit here without registering. That's backed up at the highest levels of WMF. Again, no offense Drmies; you're diligently doing a difficult and thankless job on Wikipedia. 75.177.156.78 (talk) 14:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- None taken, thanks. Good thing I get paid handsomely. Yeah, Geolocate clears you, but how reliable is that? You could have moved just so you could sock with impunity. Also, you don't sound at all like Johnny--unless of course you want me to think that! So the two things that could clear you actually damn you: I'll just block you to be sure.
Radiopathy, the IP is correct about the rights of IP editors. So here we go: IP, this is not vandalism, of course. Radiopathy, I think you're totally jumping to conclusions, and I can't help but wonder to which extent that's because this editor does not have a registered account. Then again, IP, that "only warning", come on now.
If both of you had been a bit less standoffish and a bit more talkative, I wouldn't have missed half an episode of Peppa Pig. Let's please carry on with Our Valid Content Edits, or I'll block you all for...what shall I block for today... Drmies (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Radiopathy, if you can nail that with a couple of diffs, I'll be happy to block. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- This person seems to know a lot about how Wikipedia works considering he's an IP who only started editing in May; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Johnny Squeaky/Archive. Radiopathy •talk• 01:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Disruptive Harassment by Admin
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See the following diffs by User:Pedro
1. [134]
2. [135]
Probably should be de-admined and blocked temporarily or permanently for this. Brian Everlasting (talk) 23:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- FYI, only way to get someone removed as an administrator is to go to WP:ARBCOM. Before we get into to discussing a block or something else, does User:Carrite, the person the comment was directed at, even want anything done about this? Monty84523:18, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Uh, I didn't want to "Run to, ummmm, Daddy" on this.. My theories would include temporary ethyl alcohol overdose, pointy use of certain words, or some sort of Malleusian performance art that is over my head... Then again, I'm just a fuckwit and therefore have great difficulty understanding contemporary culture or polysyllabic vocabulary... Carrite (talk) 23:24, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- It's reports like this that make WP:CIVIL unenforceable. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia written by real people—all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds, and suggesting that someone lose adminship because of a brief flame between consenting adults is misguided. (And for what it's worth, Pedro is wrong—Carrite's comments are fine and show more insight about gender imbalance than I've noticed elsewhere.) Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Agreed. This would appear to be a case of hypersensitivity to some admittedly intemperate comments. An apology is certainly in order. But absent evidence of a pattern of behavior this looks like an attempt to make a Federal case out of a speeding ticket. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- I believe that harassment is when things go on for long terms, and a synonym may be wikihounding when it's done in a civil but still aggressive manner. In this case, this is a breach of ) 02:01, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Recommend closure of report. It sure looks like hypersensitivity. I found Carrite's comments hilarious. It's very possible that Pedro misinterpreted them in some way and read them in a way that Carrite didn't mean. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- A {{trout}} has been applied. Recommend closure. – S. Rich (talk) 02:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Long term vandal reappeared
Today, I was alerted to the reappearance of a long term vandal I dealt with while I was an administrator when he felt the need to edit the page I use to track him. He is currently using 64.228.73.49 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which needs to have its block extended and modified to deny talk page access (he keeps blanking the warnings given to him or just modifying them to praise him instead of punish him).
Also why wasn't this caught by the edit filter I had made to stop him from doing this to this page and others?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:53, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because that filter's not enabled. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well why did that happen?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)\
- Reason given was because there were no hits of it for 3 months, by King of Hearts. It was disabled more than a year ago. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 20:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well why did that happen?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)\
- Just to clarify that I refused to extend the block of this IP since the IP only edited today and never before. If anyone wants to block the range, they are obviously welcome.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- It does not matter that the IP only appeared today. There are other IPs used by the individual that go back years, including several that got reused when the block wasn't long enough.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:16, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am realy stunned that even after my third explanation you still fail to understand a simple thing: Even if this IP gets reblocked for 10 years, other IPs still could be used today, and a block of this IP has no way of preventing it.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't care what you have to say about it anymore. I've had 6 god damn years of experience in dealing with this guy who lives in the GTA and has a massive hate boner for the works of Haim Saban and apparently wants to change the birth places and dates of birth of a bunch of Philippine actresses and now for whatever reason Dolph Lundgren to know that your block is insufficient.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:33, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since Ryulong clearly demonstrates battleground behaviour, may I please ask somebody to review the protection requests they addeed to WP:RFPP? The only reason given for these requests was that the IP edited them today. The IP has been blocked, there was no other disruption in the last year.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- How the fuck is it battleground behavior? I'm clearly telling you that this is a long term vandal and his targets should be protected from further disruption. And there has been disruption in the past year. In April he was using 69.159.39.121 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and that was blocked twice because after the first block expired he went back to making the same edits.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:07, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since Ryulong clearly demonstrates battleground behaviour, may I please ask somebody to review the protection requests they addeed to
- I don't care what you have to say about it anymore. I've had 6 god damn years of experience in dealing with this guy who lives in the GTA and has a massive hate boner for the works of Haim Saban and apparently wants to change the birth places and dates of birth of a bunch of Philippine actresses and now for whatever reason Dolph Lundgren to know that your block is insufficient.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:33, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am realy stunned that even after my third explanation you still fail to understand a simple thing: Even if this IP gets reblocked for 10 years, other IPs still could be used today, and a block of this IP has no way of preventing it.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- It does not matter that the IP only appeared today. There are other IPs used by the individual that go back years, including several that got reused when the block wasn't long enough.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:16, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm unclear on why the block on that particular IP needs to be extended. As Ymblanter says, the only edits the IP has ever made have been today; unless there's reason to think that particular IP will be used again by whoever this is, there's no reason to extend that one block. As far as talk page access, it looks like Ymblanter has already revoked it. Is there any other action you're looking for on this, Ryulong? If it's just those two things, I think this is actually as resolved as it's going to get. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- May it it would be a good idea to re-enable the filter, but I have very little experience with the filters.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I want the block on the IP extended beyond a day. It belongs to a long term vandal who has done nothing but disrupt all of these pages. The block should be extended so the IP cannot be used again and the pages protected so they cannot be vandalized again by this guy. You have already gotten on my case when I don't go to the noticeboards to seek out help and when I do I'm ignored or dismissed. I've raised issues with this guy's edits in the past on this page. I personally handled blocking his IPs when I was an administrator. Why should none of this matter in preventing further disruption on these pages and preventing this long-term vandal editor from coming back?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:07, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- May it it would be a good idea to re-enable the filter, but I have very little experience with the filters.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Long term blocks on an IP don't make sense when the vandal is using a changing IP. They are just going to change IPs and some other person will get the block. You should understand that Ryulong, you were an admin.
- He's used the same IP more than once in the past. And right now it's clear that he's on this one. So if this IP which has never before been used to edit Wikipedia before and is now currently in use by the long-term vandal it should be blocked more than a day because 24 hours didn't stop him last time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:16, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- If there are more problems from the IP that indicate it is the same person then a longer block would be called for. Chillum21:23, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I just note that for the first time I have heard a reasonable argument for extending the block - that last time the candal used the same IP twice, the second time after the expiration of the block. I am going to bed now, if in the morning I find consensus in this thread that a longer block would be appropriate, I can extend the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- So rather than trusting me and my 6 years of cleaning up after this guy and not even extending it to just 3 days you'd all rather just wait for him to vandalize again as he has consistently for 6 years?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:30, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. Revert, block, ignore... repeat. A long block would just be causing collateral damage for the sake of avoiding the need to hit rollback and block which is pretty easy.
- Just take it to AIV if it happens again. Chillum23:32, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- There's never been any potential for collateral damage. The IPs that have been used by this guy are never used again by anyone else. Never has an IP identified as this vandal been used again and by a legitimate user contributing in good faith. This is utter bullshit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I can understand your frustration here: the IPs used have been either repeat offenders and/or have had no productive contributions. To with, "blocks are preventative, not punitive," and perhaps this is a case where blocking an IP for an extended period of time based on 03:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- There's never been any potential for collateral damage. The IPs that have been used by this guy are never used again by anyone else. Never has an IP identified as this vandal been used again and by a legitimate user contributing in good faith. This is utter bullshit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- So rather than trusting me and my 6 years of cleaning up after this guy and not even extending it to just 3 days you'd all rather just wait for him to vandalize again as he has consistently for 6 years?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:30, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I just note that for the first time I have heard a reasonable argument for extending the block - that last time the candal used the same IP twice, the second time after the expiration of the block. I am going to bed now, if in the morning I find consensus in this thread that a longer block would be appropriate, I can extend the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- If there are more problems from the IP that indicate it is the same person then a longer block would be called for.
- I extended the block to 72 hours.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- That was sufficient when he was using 69.159.39.121 (talk · contribs) in April. There's no point laying down an extended block in my opinion, as it's a dynamic IP and could change at any time. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Persistently making contentious actions during discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi,
The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been nominating endless aircraft templates for deletion; here, here and here at least. They have been asked to stop while the matter is discussed, primarily here on the WikiProject Aircraft talk page, and specifically warned here about their behaviour. Now the nominations have restarted - see diff. This is creating a mass of work for those involved, while the Project discussion remains ongoing. This editor is clearly not prepared to wait for consensus. Can someone take a look and review their behaviour? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- I've complained once before about this sort of behavior with redirect nominations, though apparently my complaint wasn't correct in some way. While I've had positive interactions with The Banner in the time since, my belief is that this sort of mass-nomination behavior is disruptive. I sort of look at is as an extension of the rulemaking versus adjudication distinction in American administrative law: think of XfD as an adjudicative process (good for small numbers of items, and not generally binding on future decisions), while a RfC is a type of rulemaking (good for making general rules that can be applied over and over without much argument).
- I believe there are more than enough templates at issue here that it's inappropriate to handle them through piecemeal adjudication (i.e., TfD). Keep in mind that Wikipedia policies and guidelines are descriptive rather than prescriptive, and if a significant mismatch between the codified policy and the actual practice appears, the answer is to first reevaluate the policy to see if it still reflects community consensus. In this case, I would argue that there are more than enough "violating" templates from more than enough sources to make this an inappropriate matter for resolution via XfD.
- Yes, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy... but that same argument cuts against creating dozens of individual XfDs claiming some basis in practice... when each of those XfD subjects is a counter-example to the practice. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 14:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Just to highlight The Banner's approach to collaborative editing, here is a statement of their personal vendetta against another editor. When they post their own defence, the Banner then has the nerve to accuse them of lacking good faith, see this post to their talk page. This issue is not really about how to nominate, but how to behave during this, or any other, discussion. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Have you seen the banging at the door heres User talk:The Banner/Archives/2014/July where I told Ahunt multiple times that it is not the case of convincing me or his peers, but that he has to convince the administrators active at TfD. That was an argument no one wanted to accept. The sheer fact that I accepted a barnstar for the nominations, was followed by a backlash. Referring to the revenge aspect: almost from the beginning Ahunt was accusing me of doing bad faith nominations. I have asked him multiple times to stop with those false accusations, as it is not true (I still believe the WP:NENAN-nominations are valid). He went on and on so at one time I make the (not so clever) remark that I would nominate the templates of an extra letter as long as he did not stop with the false accusation. He did not stop, so I nominated. The Banner talk 15:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- See what I mean? Two fingers up to ArbCom, we know it's not so clever, but let's just spite another editor anyway. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Have you seen the banging at the door heres User talk:The Banner/Archives/2014/July where I told Ahunt multiple times that it is not the case of convincing me or his peers, but that he has to convince the administrators active at TfD. That was an argument no one wanted to accept. The sheer fact that I accepted a barnstar for the nominations, was followed by a backlash. Referring to the revenge aspect: almost from the beginning Ahunt was accusing me of doing bad faith nominations. I have asked him multiple times to stop with those false accusations, as it is not true (I still believe the WP:NENAN-nominations are valid). He went on and on so at one time I make the (not so clever) remark that I would nominate the templates of an extra letter as long as he did not stop with the false accusation. He did not stop, so I nominated. The Banner talk 15:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Just to highlight The Banner's approach to collaborative editing, here is a statement of their personal vendetta against another editor. When they post their own defence, the Banner then has the nerve to accuse them of lacking good faith, see this post to their talk page. This issue is not really about how to nominate, but how to behave during this, or any other, discussion. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nice that the aggressive defence is ending up on AN/I. A beautiful case of WP:NENANis a valid argument, although it is an essay. See a few links:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 8
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 2
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 June 4
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 May 13
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2011 June 3
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 August 26
- And then, off course, you have the editing guideline WP:REDNOTwith is argument: Red links generally are not included in either See also sections or in navigational boxes, (...).
- The very reason to nominate just a few templates a day is to give Ahunt, and the rest of his Wikiproject, a fighting change to write the articles needed to comply with the threshold of five valid blue links. Flooding TfD with long lists of articles failng WP:NENAN is also possible but that is in my eyes unpolite, as it reduces the time/chance to write the needed articles. The Banner talk15:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- In fact, there are 478 pages on TfD where WP:NENAN is mentioned/used as argument. The Banner talk 15:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- So after more than 450 times of usage, it is suddenly not a valid argument? The Banner talk 21:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- In fact, there are 478 pages on TfD where WP:NENAN is mentioned/used as argument. The Banner talk 15:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Mass nominations of this type have been strongly discouraged by ArbCom as fait accompli. They've asked you to take this to discussion, not deletion, you should be discussing those there. --MASEM (t) 15:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- The Project did. The consensus has so far been solidly against The Banner - see here. Hence the repeated returns to TfD in a bid to gain a more persuadable audience. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment, the vast majority of the templates closed with the primary reason of "Failing NENAN" were uncontested deletions. A significant subset were "moved" rather than "deleted". --Zfish118 (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- That is right, quite a few are merged, moved or extented. That is what I mentioned as "rescued". There are just very few templates with less than five relevant links kept. That was usually based on good arguments (IIRC arguments like the likelihood of more links coming in the near future). The Banner talk 20:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Mass nominations of this type have been strongly discouraged by ArbCom as
The Banner is being disingenuous in his invocation of
- I was hoping this problem could be resolved simply by the upcoming admin closures of the existing template nominations for deletion, since all have clear consensuses to "keep", which should have sent a clear message that further noms would be a waste of time. But it seems that WP:NOTHERE. I would suggest that the the best resolution at this point would be a topic ban of all aviation articles, and specifically a ban on nominating aviation templates for deletion for User:The Banner. - Ahunt (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Don't forget your long list of accusations of bad faith nominations, for instance on Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 July 16 (3x), Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 July 17 (4x). And don't forget to tell that your false bad faith accusations were just a part of you protecting your own templates. And in the mean time you just go on with your harassing. Just wait a bit more and see what happens when the administrator starts judging the templates. In the mean time: there is nothing illegal to write extra article or add more relevant links to a template to have those 5 relevant links. The Banner talk 20:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- As someone who frequently !votes at TfD, (and one who individually examined and !voted keep or delete on most of the templates in question here,) I don't think either Ahunt or The Banner acted in bad faith. The Banner was only nominating as he believes correct. The way he went about it annoyed me in this situation, but was not bad faith. If he had been approached in a different way, he probably would have worked with the project, at least allowing more time between nominations. Many of us have been notified of XfD nominations or other deletions. Ahunt and others in the project received an intimidating stream of these. I didn't follow user talk pages well enough to know if anyone overreacted, but I haven't seen anything I would call bad faith, (though calling each other bad faith came pretty close.) I hope an RfC would be a good way to settle the dispute. Although NENAN significantly overlaps many other editors' basic requirements for a navbox, there is enough variance that consensus can be hard to reach. —PC-XT+ 04:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The Banner seems to have a flawed understanding of
- Sorry, I am just a rude guy who treats every template, regardless of local hobbies, exactly the same. Just like articles are judged on their own merits, I judge templates on their own merits. The Banner talk 09:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Your rudeness doesn't bother me (although it might bother others). Your stubbornness on the other hand... I believe that you were originally acting in good faith, however, you seem to be digging your heels in (and digging yourself a deeper hole), despite a preponderance of seasoned editors telling you that you're mistaken. Mojoworker (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Your rudeness doesn't bother me (although it might bother others). Your stubbornness on the other hand... I believe that you were originally acting in good faith, however, you seem to be digging your heels in (and
Proposal
The Banner clearly has no intention of listening to consensus. Is there any good reason why he should not be banned from nominating any further templates for deletion under pain of an indefinite block? Mjroots (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- I am willing to listen to consensus. That means, a wiki-wide consensus not a local one invented to protect the interests of a very limited group of people. Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. The Banner talk 21:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Banner, you repeatedly illustrate that you cannot accept consensus. You're one of the most stubborn individuals I've ever encountered on the website.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- A limited group we may be, but we are trusted by the community. This is because we work together, discuss things and have the grace to accept when consensus is against our particular point of view. We also have the ability to prevent you from editing. Let me be quite clear, the only reason I've not topic banned you or blocked you from editing indefinitely is that I'm involved insofar as I commented at the Wikiproject discussion. I dare say that if I were to block you, there wouldn't be a rush to reverse the block. It's getting late here in the UK, so I'm minded to leave this open overnight, unless sufficient consensus is gained for action to be taken or not, as the case may be. Mjroots (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose as not necessary. Start a RfC to resolve the underlying policy question, list it at / 23:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support - as a minimum [updated 16:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)]. This emphasis on RfC is a little invidious. The Before starting the Request for comment process states, "If the article is complex or technical, it may be worthwhile to ask for help at the relevant WikiProject." All aircraft articles have by their nature a degree of technicality and complexity, while uniform presentation across articles is also important. At risk of repetition (link given twice already), we had that Project discussion and the result was total community consensus against The Banner. Their plea for an RfC and debasing remarks about the project look suspiciously like an attempt to wiggle round that. Also, judging by remarks made above, ArbCom et. al. have cut little ice with this user in the past, why should we expect sudden compliance with an RfC now? A ban would at least get across the reality of the message. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- A list of airplanes in a navigation templates is not difficult to create. The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Don't be silly. These templates serve to orchestrate the presentation of the technical and sometimes complex articles they appear in. From the viewpoint of RFC, they are effectively part of the article structure and need to be discussed in that context. Recall that favourite essay of yours, where it says that in such circumstances, a few simpler members of a much wider set are acceptable? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- A list of airplanes in a navigation templates is not difficult to create. The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose There's nothing wrong with nomination templates for deletion, yes nomination a lot of them at the same time could be considered a disruptive act, but nothing presented here shows that to be true in this case. Kosh Vorlon 10:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - the main disruptive act is that we have a consensus ) 12:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment SOunds like a localconsensus issue. Localconsensus would have bearing , as far as I know , on the page being worked on, as long as it didn't conflict with Wikipedia policies at large. There's no policy on submitting anything for deletion, unless, of course, it's disruptive, which again , hasn't been shown to be the case. Kosh Vorlon16:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Really? You are happy for anyone to persistently mass-nominate templates for deletion during discussion, are you? Even a bunch of templates you might happen to be discussing at the time on the relevant Project talk page? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment SOunds like
- And in fact you keep ignoring the fact that I am stating that you try to create a consensus on the wrong venue The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support Since he has shown he will not accept consensus and is being intentionally disruptive, I support a ban from nominating any further templates for The Banner. I don't see the point of an RfC at this point since it will just duplicate the consensus arrived at here. - Ahunt (talk) 12:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- What about my proposal Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. Are you afraid that a RfC might get an outcome you dislike? The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose I think the templates should be deleted. It would be in line with other TFD results and WP:NENAN has long been considered a valid argument. Also I see this whole ANI thread as an attempt to shut an editor up. Sometimes that might be in need of doing, but in too many cases its just an abuse around here....William12:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- This ANI is not about trying to shut an editor up: it's about getting him to listen to counter-arguments and accept consensus. The principal counter-arguement is well put below by DieSwartzPunkt, a non-involved editor.TheLongTone (talk) 13:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- comment This sideswipe at the ANI nominator is from the very same editor who took a sideswipe at the project in his barnstar award to The Banner for starting their campaign. It is now clear that this campaign has been about circumventing the Project consensus from the word go. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- What about my proposal Put in an RfC and I certainly will listen to the outcome of that. Are you afraid that a RfC might get an outcome you dislike? The Banner talk 14:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support
but read on: {uninvolved editor} If one starts withWP:AGF left the stage when The Banner made it clear in various talk pages, that most (if not all) of the later nominations were in direct retaliation to the opposition put up to the deletions by (if I have this right) one or more other editors. This cannot be acceptable behaviour.) 13:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)Reviewing The Banner's edit history (always a good idea) shows a past substantially free from many of the editing problems seen at these pages, suggesting that a block may be excessive. My recommendation would be that The Banner should accept that the consensus is largely against him and withdraw all the nominations. If he is not prepared to do that, then a topic ban 'broadly interpreted' would be the best solution for the project. If the topic ban is ignored: then go ahead and block.(See below) DieSwartzPunkt (talk- Please, take a look at the edits of Ahunt too who accused me multiple times of bad faith nomination and is still continuing his campaign of discrediting me.
- Secondly, the NENAN-agument was a valid argument for a couple of hundred times. Just the fact that one Wikiproject has a problem with it, does not my my nominations invalid. They are out there and soon an administrator will judge them. And soon, there will be an RfC to see if WP:NENAN is in the future a valid reason for nomination. I will honour the outcome from that RfC. The Banner talk 14:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC) And I will refrain of using the NENAN-argument till the new (RfC)-consenus is reached.
- I did review all the contributions involved - it would be impossible to provide an uninvolved viewpoint otherwise. In the first place: it was clear from all those contributions that consensus was against you (though granted, not entirely unanimous). In the second place: you made it clear that your nominations were retaliatory. Both of those factors made subsequent nominations bad faith. I said so above. I am not interested about the history of the tendentiousediting. (See below)
- I did review all the contributions involved - it would be impossible to provide an uninvolved viewpoint otherwise. In the first place: it was clear from all those contributions that consensus was against you (though granted, not entirely unanimous). In the second place: you made it clear that your nominations were retaliatory. Both of those factors made subsequent nominations bad faith. I said so above. I am not interested about the history of the
- I fail to see why an RfC is required when consensus is already against you. This is merely trying to game the system by trying to get a larger consensus because you do not like the outcome of the current one. What would you propose if such an RfC went against you - a world wide referendum?
A more important question is: 'why does this bother you so much?'. Why can't you just accept the position as it is and move on to editing something more acceptable and worthwhile?(See below) DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)- Because the discussion was not on a neutral venue and that specific local consensus was en is clearly intended to protect the own project and its templates. It is not a consensus set up to match the best interest of Wikipedia, something a RfC will most likely do. The Banner talk 19:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- So if you really believed the project was so rotten and the wider community would overturn its consensus at RfC, why didn't you just take it to RfC yourself? Why start a vendetta? That was the behaviour that got you dragged here. And why should we believe your pleadings for an RfC are not motivated by that same vendetta? Wikipedia is a big playground, why not just move on and recover your composure.
That's why I like this proposal, it buys you that space.— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC) [Update] Except, contrary to the suggestion of good conduct made by DieSwartzPunkt you have a history of losing your cool and getting banned - see my later comment below. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)- policy or guideline do you think trumps the consensus of the WikiProject in this situation? Mojoworker (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- So if you really believed the project was so rotten and the wider community would overturn its consensus at RfC, why didn't you just take it to RfC yourself? Why start a vendetta? That was the behaviour that got you dragged here. And why should we believe your pleadings for an RfC are not motivated by that same vendetta? Wikipedia is a big playground, why not just move on and recover your composure.
- Because the discussion was not on a neutral venue and that specific local consensus was en is clearly intended to protect the own project and its templates. It is not a consensus set up to match the best interest of Wikipedia, something a RfC will most likely do. The Banner talk 19:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support – As I said above, The Banner appears to have a flawed understanding of WP:POLICY before taking anything else to TfD. Mojoworker (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- My friend, that is why I suggested to start a RfC. Just as WP:CONLIMITED says: Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale.. Seeing the few hundred times that WP:NENAN was used on TfD, there was at least some consensus that it was a valid argument. TfD is the wider scale, so a RfC is the way to go to get the wider scale consensus. The Banner talk21:36, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Might the solution be to replace the typical begging-for-money banners with one directed to a referendum page? Then, anyone connecting to Wikipedia could post an opinion. Hard to get a much wider "community" than that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- My friend, that is why I suggested to start a RfC. Just as
- Strong support That The Banner is even still allowed to edit wikipedia is because of the incompetence of the admins in dealing with his repeated problematic behaviour. He was allowed to return by HJ Mitchell on condition that he meets certain terms, and as far as I can see he's violated every one of them. Any editor who can't respect consensus should not be permitted to edit wikipedia, and Banner repeatedly illustrates he cannot accept consensus. In fact I'd say that the ban proposal should be extended to nominating articles for deletion as he repeatedly illustrates incompetence in nominations too and nominating notable articles which just need cleanup.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment It has been said above somewhere that The Banner's edit record has generally been good. Let me refer you to their block log and to this archive of their user talk page, in which the most recent indef blocks are discussed. Nobody can hold that The Banner is innocent in all this aggressive PoV-pushing, deafness to argument and personal antagonism. It has quite evidently been their personal style for a long time. The current proposal may well not go far enough in dealing with such a chronically aggressive editor. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC) [Updated 16:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)]
- Thanks for pointing that out. It is indeed troubling. I see that his allegations that the members of WikiProject Ireland were conspiring against him three months ago seems very similar to his interaction with WikiProject Aviation now. A disturbing pattern. Mojoworker (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like ) 01:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ahunt, I am willing to accept that Banner has stepped on a bunch of toes, and that he can be abrasive. I could accept a lot more, maybe. But what I will not accept is someone saying that NOTHERE applies to Banner. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think his record and his block log speaks for itself. He is consistently disruptive and ignores consensus. - Ahunt (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- And when I responded on your many bad faith accusations, block fishing and personal attacks, your block log would also grow quickly. Please use arguments in this dispute, do not get personal. The Banner talk 11:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think his record and his block log speaks for itself. He is consistently disruptive and ignores consensus. - Ahunt (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ahunt, I am willing to accept that Banner has stepped on a bunch of toes, and that he can be abrasive. I could accept a lot more, maybe. But what I will not accept is someone saying that NOTHERE applies to Banner. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like ) 01:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- That was me. It was very remiss of me not to check the block log or to see if there was a talk page archive. In the light of these revelations, I have struck parts of my posts above. Also, it is now apparent that this is indeed a case of WP:NOTHERE. I have also changed my !vote to an unqualifie 'support'. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. It is indeed troubling. I see that his allegations that the members of WikiProject Ireland were conspiring against him three months ago seems very similar to his interaction with WikiProject Aviation now. A disturbing pattern. Mojoworker (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Banner cites NENAN as a rationale for deletion nominations. It looks like (from the RfC linked below) that NENAN is thrown out as a rationale for deletion nominations. Ergo, Banner will no longer cite NENAN as a rationale for deletion nominations. If he does, he's courting a block.
No need for anything more drastic: this is not a discussion on his general behavior, but on the narrow one of his deletion nominations for templates--the most drastic measure I'll agree with is a limit on the number of deletion nominations, in general or specifically for these templates. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have always said that I will honour the outcome of the RfD. No matter what the outcome is. The Banner talk 10:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- We need to let that RfC run to conclusion, which it will soon do, but I agree right now the consensus there is that WP:NENAN is of no value at deletion discussions. The only editor who seems to be still defending it there and opposing the WikiProject consensus on the matter is User:The Banner. - Ahunt (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- What consensus? That consensus reached on WikiProject Aircraft that according to the closing administrator of quite a lot of the nominated templates is NOT a convincing argument? The Banner talk 21:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- You have already been challenged to explain how you come to that non-logical conclusion but have failed to explain it, as usual. - Ahunt (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, you fail to understand/accept what the closing administrator did. But I am willing to repeat that over and over again for you: Easy: an administrator is not counting votes but is balancing arguments. The fact that so many nominated templates are kept as "no consensus" means that the administrator was not convinced by the arguments to delete nor convinced by the arguments (in this case the local consensus) to keep it outright. The Banner talk 11:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- You have already been challenged to explain how you come to that non-logical conclusion but have failed to explain it, as usual. - Ahunt (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- What consensus? That consensus reached on WikiProject Aircraft that according to the closing administrator of quite a lot of the nominated templates is NOT a convincing argument? The Banner talk 21:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Drmies is wrong about this discussion. The narrow issue over the templates is being discussed at TfD. I specifically brought The Banner's behaviour here to ANI. It has now emerged as part of a wider and longer-term pattern of destructive behaviour and it needs dealing with. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, you do not have the arguments to win the dispute, so you try to get me blocked. The Banner talk 10:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The matter at RfC has been firmly decided by yet another consensus against you. What we are discussing here is your record of intentional disruption of Wikipedia to make a point. As I have said before your record speaks for itself, you have been blocked multiple times in the past for the same thing. There is no need for you to keep pretending this is a content dispute when it isn't. Your response above shows clearly that you don't "get it" and aren't willing to change your behaviour. - Ahunt (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Please, mr. Hunt, stop this harassing and personal attacks. Just accept the facts. Indeed, except for miracles WP:NENAN will be shot down as argument for a deletion nomination. But you fail to accept that the closing administrator also shot down your local consensus as argument for an outright keep. The Banner talk 11:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- You can stop trying to deflect the discussion here. It is your behavior that is being discussed here, not mine and your response is to accuse other people of "harassing and personal attacks" without any evidence. I have provided diffs above that support all complaints about your behaviour, as have other editors. Your attempts at deflections here provide only vague accusations and continue to show that you "just don't get it", aren't willing to admit that your editing is a problem and aren't willing to change. - Ahunt (talk) 12:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Please, mr. Hunt, stop this harassing and personal attacks. Just accept the facts. Indeed, except for miracles WP:NENAN will be shot down as argument for a deletion nomination. But you fail to accept that the closing administrator also shot down your local consensus as argument for an outright keep. The Banner talk 11:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- The matter at RfC has been firmly decided by yet another consensus against you. What we are discussing here is your record of intentional disruption of Wikipedia to make
- Yep, you do not have the arguments to win the dispute, so you try to get me blocked. The Banner talk 10:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support Deleting templates while they are under discussion and refusal to accept the consensus of the community mean that this user shouldn't be allowed to continue this behavior. I don't know why we keep putting up with these editors who continue to try our patience. This editor has had the repercussions of their behavior explained to them and now it is time to take away their ability to continue disrupting the project. We all have better things to do than swat flies.--Adam in MO Talk 04:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, provisionally. I think there are some problems, but we see the same type of problem on AN/I many times. An editor or editors interested in some broad policy/technical area (templates, MOS things, cats, etc.) stirs up a hornets nest when their attempts to stretch content over the procrustean bed of standardization offends some parochial interest (usually a medium sized wikiproject). Bringing the outside editor here and asking us to impose a topic ban should be a last resort. I may revisit this later after looking at the links more, but I'd bet there's a less severe remedy available. Protonk (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Support What is the point of anyone trying to make this a usable encyclopedia in the face of this. Op47 (talk) 17:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Proposal 2: RfC
As nobody started anything: Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion#Request for Comment: WP:NENAN.
And yes, I know not everybody is happy with this and I will get some flak and maybe a ban, but it has to be done.
Yours sincerely, The Banner talk 22:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is not relevant to the current discussion, which is about you. Posting about it here looks like just another of your attempts to deflect attention from your violation of your previous promises, as discussed above. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- It is related, and a notice here is appropriate. --Zfish118 (talk) 23:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. I just wanted people to be aware that "related" and "relevant" are not the same thing. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is related, and a notice here is appropriate. --Zfish118 (talk) 23:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- It just got WP:SNOWBALL-ed. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:37, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Comment
The original behavior in question was the mass nominations, which I agree was done poorly due to limitations of automated tools. This behavior, alone, is not enough for a ban. The resulting discussion has been sufficiently heated, that the occasionally snarky responses from TheBanner could easily be argued to be provoked. He has even conceded that he will respect the templates for discussion outcome. The request for comment on
23:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)- Don't tell me why I brought this here. The wikiproject is big enough to take a bit of template foolery, no way is that an issue I would bring here. The original behaviour in question was the manner in which consensus was ignored, civility was flouted and all the rest. This has turned out to be part of a long-term pattern of abuse. The mass nominations just happened to be the pawn in play at the time. Last time it was a different wikiproject got this treatment. So - please deal with the issue at hand and not with the Banner's skilful smokescreen. FYI I was not involved in the template game save at the end when one of my colleagues in particluar was suffering badly from The Banner's personalising of their constant attacks in the face of consensus. I know it was a long way back up the thread, but please do follow the links I have been providing before you make such uninformed judgements about my motives. Look, if you want to bring the template discussion itself to ANI, will you please start a separate topic and not divert mine? Thank you. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I know why you brought the case here; TheBanner
is a jerkhas been acting as like jerk. That being said, I don't know what is left to be done. The deletion nominations were doomed to fail. Turning it into a brewhaha was unnecessary. A link to the manual of style for the Wikiproject and a request that all the templates be considered together were all that were necessary. Engaging each and every snarking response TheBanner made just provoked more; this is what I am posting about. --Zfish118 (talk) 20:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)- Just to clarify for you. It was not obvious to the wikiproject that the nominations would be bound to fail. Stranger things have been sanctioned and this project does have an awful lot of templates. But of course, we are drifting away from the root issue here - the disruptive community behaviour surrounding those nominations. Think of my topic title as "Persistently [doing contentious things] during discussion: [and not for the first time]", as I restate below. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I know why you brought the case here; TheBanner
Restatement
This discussion is about The Banner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and their behaviour. Check out their block log and talk page archives for more about why this is important. I am the OP, I know why I posted here. Please do not fall for their skilful distractions on the matter of a few templates. I would not waste your time over a few templates. Please stay on course here, thank you. I will come back and clarify recent events/discoveries as I can but at the moment am too busy off-wiki to go round collecting the links. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I posted here because this user was "Persistently [doing contentious things] during discussion."
The Banner's block log (see link in the above para) reveals a history of sanctions for destructive behaviour. The account has been blocked 8 times since July 1911. Reasons repeatedly given include edit warring, personal attacks and general disruption. In the present dispute, we see all these in spades. Rather that show any repentance, the Banner has detemonedly argued to justify their actions. In the last of those older incidents, The Banner undertook four promises. Here again is the snapshot of the discussion that I already posted. The most relevant discussion is near the bottom, where The Banner unconditionally accepted four conditions:
- 1. You agree to a topic ban from articles related to Irish parishes (civil or of any religious denomination), except to make your case for your edits at WT:Ireland;
- 2. You conduct yourself properly on talk pages, in a manner consistent with good-faith discussion intended to improve the encyclopaedia;
- 3. You refrain from referring to good-faith contributions as "nonsense" or "vandalism"—you can disagree with an edit without attacking the editor;
- 4. You refrain from making any further allegations that the members of WikiProject Ireland have conspired with Dr Blofeld against you, unless you make it in an appropriate forum and with credible evidence.
Conditions 2. and 3. have been very blatantly broken, not only with a self-confessed crusade against another wikiproject but also an equally open personal vendetta against one particular project member, even taking it to their talk page. I too have received passive-aggressive harrassment on my own talk page, here and here.
So, I would now ask that Admin attention be directed at this user's apparent flouting of unconditionally accepted terms of behaviour previously laid on them by an Admin, and their apparent total unrepentance. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:28, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- LOL, you do not have the arguments to win the dispute (neither do I, to be true) so you try to get me blocked. Cool. But be aware of boomerangs. The Banner talk 15:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, have you seen this: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 July 31#Template:1992 FIFA Futsal World Championship. The Banner talk 22:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- The reason for deletion is "only 2 links, red links are to subject titles unlikely to prove sufficiently notable in their own right to require a fork to an individual article user:Fenix down. This would be a sufficient to propose deletion even if WP:NENAN were not mentioned at all. Other posters agree, but it is still subject to consensus. --Zfish118 (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'd call that unrepentant. Talk about digging yourself a deeper hole. LOL, indeed.TheLongTone (talk) 22:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- I just call that asking for a block out of revenge. Not to serve the encyclopaedia. The Banner talk 13:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Close
Reading through the discussion, consensus seems to be clear enough. Can an admin please shut this down, invoking whatever sactions have attracted consensus? Thanks, --Mdann52talk to me! 10:16, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'll second that - the bots are getting restless. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Another proposal
No admin has yet had the will to bite the bullet. To be fair, there seems a lack of exactness in what is expected. So, although I am involved and am not an admin, I now make my own specific proposal.
Rationale: As evidenced above, The Banner is a generally well-meaning encyclopedic editor who periodically handles himself badly enough to earn sanctions such as topic bans, blocks, etc. Recently, to avoid yet another block, The Banner made an unconditional promise to stick to a set of rules imposed by an Admin. The Banner has since broken at least two of those conditions and remains utterly unrepentant that they did so. The Banner is well aware that this should earn them a block and has been taunting me personally to this effect.
Proposal: That Wikipedia's admins bite the bullet and live up to their collective word. Please will an admin; a) block The Banner for a sufficiently punitive period of time to re-establish the authority of Administrative decisions, and b) impose a ban on proposing templates for deletion. Otherwise, please give us a damn good explanation why not? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Steelpillow, you are just out on a block as revenge for stepping on the toes of you and your WikiProject. The RfC has been run, NENAN is off the table and the case could have been closed. But you are still fishing for blocks and harassing me in this way. By now, it will be suitable to block you! The Banner talk 15:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Irrelevant distractions as ever (though not of course unrelated). I just changed the title of this ANI to make that clearer. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not an irrelevant distraction, Steelpillow. Just a fact. Yes, I stepped on your toes by nominating so many navigation-templates that had nearly nothing to navigate between. Yes, WP:NENAN is shot down as argument for removal. But it is also a fact that the closing administrator did not consider the hastily drawn consensus at WikiProject Aircraft as a serious argument. (At least, he did not consider it strong enough to outweigh my WP:NENAN-argument and closed the nominations as "no consensus" instead of a clear keep in many cases.) And now you are after me to get revenge and set an example to show the world that the navigation-templates of WikiProject Aircraft are above the law and can not be touched. The Banner talk 16:18, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wow! I rest my case. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Not an irrelevant distraction, Steelpillow. Just a fact. Yes, I stepped on your toes by nominating so many navigation-templates that had nearly nothing to navigate between. Yes, WP:NENAN is shot down as argument for removal. But it is also a fact that the closing administrator did not consider the hastily drawn consensus at WikiProject Aircraft as a serious argument. (At least, he did not consider it strong enough to outweigh my WP:NENAN-argument and closed the nominations as "no consensus" instead of a clear keep in many cases.) And now you are after me to get revenge and set an example to show the world that the navigation-templates of WikiProject Aircraft are above the law and can not be touched. The Banner talk 16:18, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Irrelevant distractions as ever (though not of course unrelated). I just changed the title of this ANI to make that clearer. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yet another whinge from User:The Banner which, had it been directed at him, would have produced accusations of personal attacks or the like. It also clearly demonstrates that he clearly still believes himself to have been completely in the right in this affair: which is why some form of sanction against him is necessary.TheLongTone (talk) 15:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, this needs to be all assessed by an admin, closed and an appropriate length block against User:The Banner levied. As shown repeated above, including in this thread, he seems to think that everyone else but him here is the problem, continues to try to deflect this thread away from the topic of his behavior, continues to attack other editors, has repeatedly disregarded consensus and his own agreements after previous blocks and shows no intention of changing his behavior. Can we have this resolved please and get back to improving the encyclopedia? - Ahunt (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, sir, I have not disregarded the local consensus. It was an administrator that ignored it when closing the nominations of many navigation-templates as "no consensus". And perhaps we should pay attention to your numerous false accusations of "bad faith nomination" at TfD. The Banner talk 22:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for continuing to go out of your way to illustrate the problem here. - Ahunt (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry that I have stepped on your toes, but as far as I know that is not illegal. In earlier cases when I nominated templates for WP:NENAN in many cases the authors tried to save the template by creating content or adding previous unmentioned links. You and your friends just went on the attack. No positive action at all. The Banner talk 23:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- By the way: The RfC is clear is shooting down WP:NENAN. As promised earlier, I will respect that outcome. The Banner talk 23:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for continuing to go out of your way to illustrate the problem here. - Ahunt (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, sir, I have not disregarded the local consensus. It was an administrator that ignored it when closing the nominations of many navigation-templates as "no consensus". And perhaps we should pay attention to your numerous false accusations of "bad faith nomination" at TfD. The Banner talk 22:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, this needs to be all assessed by an admin, closed and an appropriate length block against User:The Banner levied. As shown repeated above, including in this thread, he seems to think that everyone else but him here is the problem, continues to try to deflect this thread away from the topic of his behavior, continues to attack other editors, has repeatedly disregarded consensus and his own agreements after previous blocks and shows no intention of changing his behavior. Can we have this resolved please and get back to improving the encyclopedia? - Ahunt (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yet another whinge from User:The Banner which, had it been directed at him, would have produced accusations of personal attacks or the like. It also clearly demonstrates that he clearly still believes himself to have been completely in the right in this affair: which is why some form of sanction against him is necessary.TheLongTone (talk) 15:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
It's been over two weeks, no admin has seen fit to close the discussion, and the thread has already been archived once. Maybe an uninvolved user (who is less averse to drama than me) should close this discussion as "no consensus". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:15, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Except that "no consensus" would not be appropriate, there is a very clear consensus expressed here. - Ahunt (talk) 00:42, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
CIR problem
Pawan Bariaar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continues to post poorly-written descriptions (e.g. [136], [137], [138], [139]) of individual player's contributions to individual cricket matches, despite being repeatedly, nicely advised, then warned of the problems with their edits, and then a 48-hour block.
They've never engaged via their talk page or any other place and refuse to use edit summaries or citations, but that could easily be related to their poor English (the edits could easily be the result of poor translation from a language which does not have verb tenses, articles, etc.).
I don't know whether the stats and prose they are adding are even appropriate – it seems rather trivial to describe a player's stats in individual matches that are not unusual or record accomplishments in the sport overall. Additionally, there is the question of how much of this needs to be cited, if it is to be included.
Regardless, the requirement to have someone clean up behind them on almost every edit (on 34 pages and counting) seems unreasonable. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 09:58, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it does, and I agree it looks like a CIR issue. The things Miniapolis blocked the user for previously, "No edit summaries, failure to follow the MOS or address talk-page concerns", continue unabated. I've given them a week off, and I'm afraid I can see this escalating pretty soon to an indefinite block. Bishonen | talk12:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC).
Blocked user admits on Japanese Wikipedia to engaging in sockpuppetry here
Hijiri88 (talk · contribs) here. I'm on a bus with an even more unstable connection than my phone, so I'm logged out to avoid my edit getting accidentally cancelled. Juzumaru (talk · contribs) was blocked a little over a month ago for persistent attacks against me, and after being blocked here he started using his Japanese talk page to continue attacking me. He was recently cautioned by an admin there to cut it out, and politely accepted the warning, but a little bit before this he made an interesting remark: "すでに気づかれているかもしれませんが、私は英語版Wikipediaにすでに別アカウントを作成し、編集活動も行っています" translates to "You may have already noticed, but I have already made a new account on English Wikipedia and am engaged in editing". I actually hadn't already noticed, but this statement is concerning. I checked the recent edit histories of some of his favourite articles, but his sockpuppet doesn't appear to have shown up there yet. This makes it somewhat difficult to start a sockpuppet investigation. Any ideas about what the procedure in this situation is? I don't suppose we can get a CU even with an open admission to block-evasion... 117.55.68.54 (talk) 09:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Input requested from DoRD, who's a checkuser; I expect that he'll be able to offer an opinion beyond a simple "we can do a CU" or "we can't do a CU". Since this guy says at ja:wp that he has created an en:wp sock, I'm left wondering whether CU can do a cross-wiki check, i.e. "This IP operated on ja:wp and on en:wp on this day". Probably not, but that's part of the reason I asked DoRD's input. Nyttend (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- While the diff above ([140]) doesn't link to the exact phrase in the quotation, it did leave me with enough suspicion to go ahead and run a check. Unfortunately, CheckUser didn't turn up any account that looked like a sockpuppet. As for a cross-wiki check, there isn't much I can do at this point - if I had found evidence of abuse, I could have shared my information with jawiki CUs for confirmation. —DoRD (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
User Jim-Siduri again - I think this might merit admin attention
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See here [141], and the edit summary for the following post. [142] It appears that User:Jim-Siduri has taken it upon himself to issue a press release on behalf of a non-existent 'Wikipedia Reform/Civility Movement', giving the URL for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force as a 'mirror', and consequently implying that this is some sort of official project. I'm at a loss as to what exactly he is trying to achieve, but whatever it is, I can't help feeling that it is an abuse of Wikipedia facilities to be doing it. It should be noted that this isn't the first time that Jim-Siduri has invented fictitious Wikipedia projects, and that he has repeatedly been told to learn how Wikipedia works before embarking on ambitious projects to 'reform' it. Given this latest episode, I suspect that it may finally be time to show him the door... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:52, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- For now I've collapsed the section, in case he actually sends it and someone actually comes to the page. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:56, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Given that he edited the press release to read 'submitted', and given the edit summary "Fly fly little bird, make our dreams a reality...)", it seems reasonable to assume, lacking evidence to the contrary, that it has been submitted somewhere or other... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- It appears already to have been distributed but embargoed until about 45 minutes from now. If this is not legitimate, he needs to withdraw it immediately. SPECIFICO talk 03:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Facepalm--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've blanked the section. The material posted by Jim-Siduri was a misrepresentation as to what the off-wiki project "is" and it contained ) 16:22, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'd assumed that the contact details were for Jim-Siduri himself. If they were't, we have a more serious issue here. In either case, I think we need to consider whether further action is needed. Personally, I had already prior to this latest event come to the conclusion, based on JI-Siduri's prior behaviour, that he shows little sign of ever becoming a useful contributor to Wikipedia, and this bizarre behaviour merely confirms my opinion. I have no doubt of his good intentions, but he seems unwilling to actually do any significant encyclopaedic work, shows no inclination whatsoever to actually learn how Wikipedia works before going off on another flight of fancy over proposed 'reforms', and seems entirely oblivious to the fact that his repeated spamming of multiple pages with his ill-researched ideas has been disruptive. To be blunt, in my opinion he seems to simply lack the competence to be permitted to continue like this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with ATG. A history of very verbose postings on his mostly impractical ideas of how Wikipedia should be changed, and nothing much else. His proposed policy in hisWikipedia:Executions that any editor willing to be voluntarily blocked should first get three uncontested changes to Wikipedia was particularly strange. He seems well-intentioned and has been given a pass on several things (using multiple accounts, misuse of user space, etc.) and the community has devoted quite a bit of time and effort in an attempt to assist him, but I think this last episode is too much. Meters (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'd assumed that the contact details were for Jim-Siduri himself. If they were't, we have a more serious issue here. In either case, I think we need to consider whether further action is needed. Personally, I had already prior to this latest event come to the conclusion, based on JI-Siduri's prior behaviour, that he shows little sign of ever becoming a useful contributor to Wikipedia, and this bizarre behaviour merely confirms my opinion. I have no doubt of his good intentions, but he seems unwilling to actually do any significant encyclopaedic work, shows no inclination whatsoever to actually learn how Wikipedia works before going off on another flight of fancy over proposed 'reforms', and seems entirely oblivious to the fact that his repeated spamming of multiple pages with his ill-researched ideas has been disruptive. To be blunt, in my opinion he seems to simply lack the competence to be permitted to continue like this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately Necessary Proposal
There have, as noted, been problems with this editor in the past. He initially wanted to use three user accounts, all of which would be shared by the potential members of his project. I have no idea what the purpose of his project is, except to use Wikipedia as his web platform to make the world a better place. After he was told that this was not how Wikipedia works, he agreed to use only one account. It now seems that he is issuing a "press release" for some unrecognized project, thus complicating an area in which Wikipedia already has enough difficulty of its own making, without the need for further confusion due to
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support per proposer, and per my reasoning above. Good intentions are all very well, but combined with an apparent inability to get a clue, they may result in a net negative to the project - which is clearly the case here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support – The "press-release" was just to strange. Talk pages should not be creative writing exercises. Unless Jim-Siduri would own-up to the disruptive nature of the editing, and demonstrate a clear understanding of the guidelines & policies I cannot see how his continued participation would be helpful. – S. Rich (talk) 19:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose We should not simply indefinitely block editors who engage in this sort of stuff. Jim seems to have his heart in the right place, and he took the initiative to finally use LightBreather's 'proposal page' for the civility stuff. All in all, he has not breached any exact policy/guidelines that I can see, except maybe ) 20:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Does LightBreather even know that Jim-Siduri posted all that [143] in her user space? She seems not to have responded to it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've just checked with Lightbreather - she wasn't aware of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I removed it. Partially because it was actually the only hit on Google for this 'proposal', but also because I didn't see anywhere he'd asked/told her about it. I've explained this to her and obviously said she can restore it (with the noindex template I added left there). talk) 21:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I removed it. Partially because it was actually the only hit on Google for this 'proposal', but also because I didn't see anywhere he'd asked/told her about it. I've explained this to her and obviously said she can restore it (with the noindex template I added left there).
- I've just checked with Lightbreather - she wasn't aware of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Does LightBreather even know that Jim-Siduri posted all that [143] in her user space? She seems not to have responded to it... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support far more heat than light coming from this user. Well-intentioned disruption is still disruption. Yunshui 雲水 20:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support We've invested enough time and effort. Per ) 20:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support I've been thinking about this all day, but he's just taken up to much time that other editors could be using constructively, and either used other accounts/IP addresses or his friends have been working with him. See for instance talk) 21:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support Just disruptive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorrowful support Wikipedia is not the right place for everyone, and there is enough work to do here without distractions. Johnuniq (talk) 00:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support And add this name to the ban list. These people come here hoping to use the project for other means. We, as a community are way too patient with these types of disruptive users. --Adam in MO Talk 02:08, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support Jim-Siduri has a fundamental misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is all about. A chance was given for them to get to grips but rather than use it wisely, they've squandered it on this other odd venture. If this isn't nipped in the bud, who knows how long this will go on for? Blackmane (talk) 14:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Regretful Support per Yunshui. Disruption is disruption. They can be unblocked in the future if they make it clear they understand what Wikipedia is (an encyclopedia). ♥ Solarra ♥ • T ♀ C 07:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Melancholy support. I have to agree with Adam above. Bishonen | talk 12:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC).
- Support some editing restrictions. Jim-Siduri has just created Draft:Beyond Differences with the edit summary reading "Some of us suggest some of us help new non-profit organizations (such as perhaps this one...) find their feet on Wikipedia and we might be just a touch more welcoming and friendly to our new interested potential editors...". While probably unrelated to the press release issue above, it does stray uncomfortably far into advertisement/advocacy territory. I'm not entirely sure an outright ban is necessary, but some editing restrictions do appear necessary. Woodroar (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- One of Jim-Siduri's more persistently irritating habits is the endless repetition of the phrase 'some of us...' in his walls of text. Whether he is intentionally doing it to give the impression that he's speaking for other people, or whether it's just another symptom of his cluelessness I'm not sure - but I would have to suggest that if he is to be permitted to continue editing, it should be on the condition that he stops misrepresenting his personal opinions as anything but just that - no imaginary 'projects', no drafting in other people into his schemes without their consent as he appears to have done while creating his 'press release', and no assertions that 'some of us...' think anything whatsoever. He should either speak for himself, or put a cork in it - it doesn't fool anyone... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support per Yunshui and Robert McClenon. This pattern of disruptive editing has gone on long enough. (Non-administrator comment) Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:23, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Iranmanesh53 has continuously been recreating a identical page with a different name each time. They were.
First article (by another user)
- Mahmoud fhazilat - deleted in AfD. Iranmanesh53 comments saying it is notable.
His recreations:
- Mahmoud fazilat - speedy deleted
- Fazilat - speedy deleted
What do you administrators think? -- Cheers
- While there have been the Speedy Deletion templates and there was the AFD discussion, there doesn't seem to have been any good attempt to discuss the issue with Iranmanesh53, so I've started one. I did my best to keep my language simple but I don't know if I'm very good at it. Hopefully this will be enough. Nil Einne (talk) 12:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Sign my Guestbook06:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Sign my Guestbook06:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
- @
For everyones info this user has: created a page that has been deleted (twice), been warned on his talk page, and now recreated another page which was deleted (which is a current speedy candidate). This has to warrant a block
and he recreates the
- I noticed they removed my message (which they're of course entitled to do) and left a thank you note earlier. I assumed this meant they'd received all the help they need and would change their behaviour. I'm lazy and not sure if I can check since I'm not an admin but if they recreated these articles after I told them not to, this obviously isn't a good sign. In any case, I've given them a clearer warning they need to stop or be blocked. I don't really care if someone decides to block anyway, but if not I suggest they should be blocked if they recreate any articles again. It doesn't sound like they're listening. Nil Einne (talk) 16:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Just for the admin settling this he deleted a AFD template from a page at Afd. See dif here.
Comment:: thread restored. PhilKnight (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Echoing Nil Einne above, I won't personally block (since I did comment on an AfD about an article this editor created), but would not be opposed to a block, at least until such a time that the community is satisfied that these issues won't arise again... maybe an editing restriction to allow article creation via AFC only?. It looks like there are several issues here, such as a language issue, 19:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Similarly, I'm unconvinced that a block is required at this stage. PhilKnight (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Sign my Guestbook11:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- All right, this has gone on long enough. I'm convinced this editor will continue to recreate deleted articles, and I wouldn't be surprised if we've all just wasted our time with another sock from the farm that was involved at Nosratollah Khakian. Blocking. --Kinu t/c 16:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Long standing editorial POV issues at Historicity of Jesus
This request for support follows on the recommendation of DRN coordinator User:MrScorch6200 to seek ANI assistance as noted in his findings here, and following from previous Talk Discussion, and Request for Review. Content mediation has been request as per DRN recommendation at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Historicity of Jesus. This request is for conduct investigation and mediation/arbitration as per DRN recommendation at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Historicity of Jesus.
The long term pattern of actions and behaviours by a set of editors, as found [here] and in archived Talk pages going back several months, gives the appearance that there is a long-term campaign of collusion to develop and maintain a distinct and narrow POV. In short, a vocal sub-set of editors conducts the following:
- Editwaring
- Pettifogging
- Biting newbies
- Personal attacks
- Inappropriate consensus
- Spurious polling
- System gaming
- Conflict of Interest
- Assumption of bad faith
and the skilled use of rhetoric, obfuscation and intentional distortions to discourage, and drive away new editors and recommended edits, or to confound and dis-empower consistently engaged editors striving to bring balance to the article.
Please advise on next steps and process to find some sort of peaceful, reasonable and inclusive solution. --IseeEwe (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- A similar topic came up when Jesus was featured on the front page, or nominated for it, I think. I actually took a class in college which examined this subject somewhat. I can assure you, no college-level class studying this would have a syllabus as Christian-centered as Wikipedia's sources. However, to be fair, the main subject I remember from college was the resemblance of any likely historical figure to modern conceptions, rather than existence in itself. The basic idea was the the modern conception of Jesus shouldn't be considered to have existed. It then gets into how one defines Jesus..... I remember my professor asking if we thought a time-machine would settle the question of whether Jesus existed, and the general consensus of our class was that it wouldn't. Howunusual (talk) 02:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, Thank you Howunusual. I believe that you are close to the root of my concern. I believe that there are a variety of academic opinions that would range from 100% acceptance of the full biblical story, right through to 100% acceptance that it is a myth. These various perspectives all have meaning and value within different disciplines and religious groups. It is my position that as editors we are not here to assert the value of one over the over. It is for us to lay out the various positions to allow the reader to better understand the discussion taking place, and to tell the story as it is told by those who best represent the diverse opinions at play. I perceive that the general behaviour of a select group of editors prevents NPOV and seek a way to curb this behaviour, but retain the engagement of this group as a valued contribution to one piece of the discussion. Your advice on next steps would be highly appreciated. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) That's funny: As an interested lay observer of the Jesus historicity debate, I have come to exactly the same conclusion, which I submit as evidence that I understand the underlying problem quite well even as an outsider. The problem, namely, that there is no certainty about virtually anything regarding Jesus, not even if Jesus was based on a single person, or multiple people, and in what way, and even what most mainstream scholars consider relatively certain about Jesus is so generic it is not really helpful, even if we could travel back to the relevant time and place and look around for historical people who could have been the basis for Jesus. That's the heart of the issue. To adapt two classic quips: "Would the real historical Jesus please stand up?" and "Who was Jesus, and if yes, how many?" Many scholars appear to be rather agnostic now, even if they are hesitant to admit so in public. I have even encountered the suggestion that the Jesus figure was based on an indefinite number of people, a generic type just like a cop character in some Hollywood film might be based on many policemen that the scriptwriters have encountered in their life. Jesus-type characters were dime a dozen at the time and in the region. That's what most people do not realise, and that's why most people are puzzled that the historicity of Jesus should even be a problem in the first place. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, I believe that there are a variety of academic opinions that would range from 100% acceptance of the full biblical story, right through to 100% acceptance that it is a myth. These various perspectives all have meaning and value within different disciplines and religious groups. It is my position that as editors we are not here to assert the value of one over the over. It is for us to lay out the various positions to allow the reader to better understand the discussion taking place, and to tell the story as it is told by those who best represent the diverse opinions at play. I perceive that the general behaviour of a select group of editors prevents NPOV and seek a way to curb this behaviour, but retain the engagement of this group as a valued contribution to one piece of the discussion. Please advise on next steps. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- See User:BruceGrubb/CMT Material/FAQ, question 3, for what I believe to be a very fair and unbiased representation of the spectrum.
- Just a remark: 100% acceptance of the full biblical story (maximalism or literalism) means acceptance of virgin birth, all miracles, etc., and amounts to creationism. Don't forget that even in the New Testament, there are assertions that squarely contradict science, such as when Satan shows Jesus all the kingdoms in the world from a very high mountain (which implies a flat Earth), which are therefore best interpreted in a metaphorical way. Frankly, I doubt that maximalism is a position that has any appreciable support in serious academia, even among devout Christian scholars.
- The current mainstream is probably best represented by scholars like Bart Ehrman, whose position is sharply differentiated from both maximalism and minimalism, let alone mythicism. However, Richard Carrier has just published a challenge of the historicist position, arguing that the evidence in its favour has been misrepresented and is really quite insufficient, while various considerations point rather in a quite different direction. Personally, I have leant towards mythicism for a long time, find Carrier's arguments persuasive and tend to agree with his conclusions, and I believe it will be increasingly difficult to ignore his arguments given that they often seem to be quite accepted already by the likes of Ehrman – only the conclusion is not. My impression is that the consensus in the field is unstable and while outright mythicism may remain fringe for the time being, minimalist or agnostic positions will become more accepted. This is a difficult situation. Editors sceptical of the historicist consensus will anticipate this development eagerly and push for a greater representation of less-than-historicist positions especially. However, even though I share their bias, I think it is too early to start to increase Wikipedia's coverage of these positions significantly, as per WP:CRYSTALWikipedia should absolutely not "lead the way" and anticipate coming developments. We must remain conservative. Therefore, despite my sympathies for mythicism, I would admonish the historicism sceptics to hold their horses and keep patiently observing the developments in the field. There's no reason to rush things. Moderate historicism may have feet of clay, but it is still top dog for the time being.
- Wikipedia is not a soapbox and not a substitute for blogs where editors can advertise their opinions, argue and debate them. Nor does the academic dialogue take place here. It is wiser to confide in the strength of the arguments against historicism and rest assured that they will eventually prevail. This is also what I am sure Carrier, Doherty et al. would advise were they asked. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 07:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, I believe that there are a variety of academic opinions that would range from 100% acceptance of the full biblical story, right through to 100% acceptance that it is a myth. These various perspectives all have meaning and value within different disciplines and religious groups. It is my position that as editors we are not here to assert the value of one over the over. It is for us to lay out the various positions to allow the reader to better understand the discussion taking place, and to tell the story as it is told by those who best represent the diverse opinions at play. I perceive that the general behaviour of a select group of editors prevents NPOV and seek a way to curb this behaviour, but retain the engagement of this group as a valued contribution to one piece of the discussion. Please advise on next steps. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) That's funny: As an interested lay observer of the Jesus historicity debate, I have come to exactly the same conclusion, which I submit as evidence that I understand the underlying problem quite well even as an outsider. The problem, namely, that there is no certainty about virtually anything regarding Jesus, not even if Jesus was based on a single person, or multiple people, and in what way, and even what most mainstream scholars consider relatively certain about Jesus is so generic it is not really helpful, even if we could travel back to the relevant time and place and look around for historical people who could have been the basis for Jesus. That's the heart of the issue. To adapt two classic quips: "Would the real historical Jesus please stand up?" and "Who was Jesus, and if yes, how many?" Many scholars appear to be rather agnostic now, even if they are hesitant to admit so in public. I have even encountered the suggestion that the Jesus figure was based on an indefinite number of people, a generic type just like a cop character in some Hollywood film might be based on many policemen that the scriptwriters have encountered in their life. Jesus-type characters were dime a dozen at the time and in the region. That's what most people do not realise, and that's why most people are puzzled that the historicity of Jesus should even be a problem in the first place. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:14, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The next steps would be naming specific editors instead of "a vocal sub-set of editors", notifying them of the thread, and pointing out specific concerns supported by diffs. Explaining how this is an appropriate attitude would be a nice bonus. Personally I think that someone whose reply to being found to have misrepresented sources is "I will not debate sources with you" is unfit to edit Wikipedia. Huon (talk) 03:08, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am not sure of next steps which is why this formal request exists with an explicit request for direction. I will not engage any further with you as one of those I would bring forward as culpable in this matter. Unlike you and your editorial group I have repeatedly asked first, then acted, sought direction, then decided, asked for external review, mediation and now arbitration in order to stop your continuous abusive harassment of one editor after the other. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The next steps would be naming specific editors instead of "a vocal sub-set of editors", notifying them of the thread, and pointing out specific concerns supported by
- (WP:FRINGE view). You were reverted five times by three different editors in the past two days, and you'v responded all but the last time by reverting once time has passed ( [144], [145], [146], including a hypocritical accusation on edit warring from the first time an editor reverted you). You have:
- hypocritically accused anyone who shows the slightest disagreement of being part of some sort of POV pushing cabal while expecting good faith in turm, as if it means a free pass to add whatever to the article
- make unevidenced accusations that I've been attacking people for "the last 6 months (at least)" when I've barely been at that page for four months,
- responded to evidence that you've engaged in POV-pushing OR by outright insulting my intelligence ("Whatever. I accept that you are unable to understand 21st century approaches to critical theory -as dumbed down as I wrote them.")
- You are only tendentious. You had a slight point in that, while everyone was wondering if you were a sock puppet (not that that's gone away), I did not leave you a message asking you not to make the exact sort of edits that most people on the talk page were saying not to make, even though your behavior gives no reason to believe it'd've made a difference, especially with you indicating you are familiar that those conversations occured -- for which I did apologize even though I'm convinced you're of no use to articles on religion. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:12, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am not sure of next steps which is why this formal request exists with an explicit request for direction. I will not engage any further with you as one of those I would bring forward as culpable in this matter -if you persist in harping and attacking. Unlike you and your editorial group I have repeatedly asked first, then acted, sought direction, then decided, asked for external review, mediation and now arbitration in order to stop the continuous abusive harassment of one editor after the other. As per the note on the talk page I have suggest a solution to you, [here], and believe that mediation and cooperation will help us move down that road. I am here seeking mediation, not to exclude, but to include, not to punish, but to calm. There is no evil intention here. Please consider. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The next step is that I have blocked you for two weeks for personal attacks, disruptive editing and edit warring at assuming bad faith is not to be tolerated here. I'd have placed a considerably longer block if you'd been here longer. Bishonen | talk08:43, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- Request to User:Bishonen. Please consider shortening the block. I agree with you that ISeeEwe was being tendentious and disruptive, and was using a request for resolution in a way that was itself disruptive, by continuing to make allegations of abuse without providing diffs. However, in the absence of a previous block history, I think (even after the most recent tirade on the talk page) that the block could be shortened to one week, which still might be long enough for ISeeEwe to learn that making repeated unsupported allegations is not useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The next step is that I have blocked you for two weeks for personal attacks, disruptive editing and edit warring at
- I am not sure of next steps which is why this formal request exists with an explicit request for direction. I will not engage any further with you as one of those I would bring forward as culpable in this matter -if you persist in harping and attacking. Unlike you and your editorial group I have repeatedly asked first, then acted, sought direction, then decided, asked for external review, mediation and now arbitration in order to stop the continuous abusive harassment of one editor after the other. As per the note on the talk page I have suggest a solution to you, [here], and believe that mediation and cooperation will help us move down that road. I am here seeking mediation, not to exclude, but to include, not to punish, but to calm. There is no evil intention here. Please consider. --IseeEwe (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? Talk about hypocritical and heavy-handed. More abusive comments than that are a dime a dozen on Wikipedia, and IseeEwe actually sought dispute-resolution and was told to come here. Howunusual (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- So, the precedent being set is that if you've made poor edits in the past, you shouldn't later do the right thing via dispute resolution, because it will call attention to your poor edits, and the result of seeking dispute resolution will be that you are blocked. Howunusual (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- In the past? The egregious edits that I referred to, and in one case linked to, were made two days ago at the most. "Wikipedia time" pushes things into the past pretty fast, but not that fast. Also, "hypocritical" is a serious accusation concerning my motives. Can I trouble you to explain your basis for it, Howunusual? Bishonen | talk 19:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- As mentioned above, I would suggest that User:Bishonen shorten the (necessary) block. With no previous block history, we don't know that such a long block is the only way to restore useful discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The user has posted an unblock request, and I prefer to let an uninvolved admin review it in the usual way. I have no objection if that admin, or another, should decide to unblock or to shorten the block, and I've made a note to that effect on the user's talkpage. Mind you, it wasn't a very good unblock request (as you imply above, Robert), and I've told the user so. S/he can change it at any time. Bishonen | talk 22:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- I agree with user: user:Robert McClenon, user:FormerIP and user:Howunusual that the block should be shortened and was absolutely excessive. Also, the user never actually made an unblock request. What they posted was basically a rant. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 03:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- The user has posted an unblock request, and I prefer to let an uninvolved admin review it in the usual way. I have no objection if that admin, or another, should decide to unblock or to shorten the block, and I've made a note to that effect on the user's talkpage. Mind you, it wasn't a very good unblock request (as you imply above, Robert), and I've told the user so. S/he can change it at any time. Bishonen | talk 22:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- As mentioned above, I would suggest that User:Bishonen shorten the (necessary) block. With no previous block history, we don't know that such a long block is the only way to restore useful discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- In the past? The egregious edits that I referred to, and in one case linked to, were made two days ago at the most. "Wikipedia time" pushes things into the past pretty fast, but not that fast. Also, "hypocritical" is a serious accusation concerning my motives. Can I trouble you to explain your basis for it, Howunusual? Bishonen | talk 19:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC).
- So, the precedent being set is that if you've made poor edits in the past, you shouldn't later do the right thing via dispute resolution, because it will call attention to your poor edits, and the result of seeking dispute resolution will be that you are blocked. Howunusual (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? Talk about hypocritical and heavy-handed. More abusive comments than that are a dime a dozen on Wikipedia, and IseeEwe actually sought dispute-resolution and was told to come here. Howunusual (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Call for an uninvolved admin to review the block
I have already invited an admin — any admin — to unblock or shorten the block on their own responsibility, without asking me, but it's possible that not many admins have read this thread. None have commented, anyway (excepting Huon, who is involved in the content dispute). I don't myself feel like reducing the block, both because I think it was about right to begin with and because of the user's demeanour after the block, such as in their "proofs" that they did nothing wrong and their continued attacks on those who disagree with them. Even after allowances made for venting while blocked, and for the user's newness, I don't like it much. But your mileage may certainly vary, and in view of the voices above calling for a reduction in block length, I'm putting this appeal where it'll show up in the ANI table of contents. Please review and, non-admins, please comment. Bishonen | talk 16:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC).
- Two weeks seems a bit much. I personally would've topped out at 72 hours but most likely I would've given 24 to 48 hours to stop the accusations w/o evidence and edit warring. Now that IseeEwe has listed his evidence, an unblock might be appropriate with that content copied over here and discussion can resume over their concerns if they agree not to edit war.--v/r - TP 17:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that two weeks may be too long, but I will not unblock at the moment, because in the most recent message linked by TParis, IseeEwe continues to frame the revisionist views he promotes as being on their way to supplanting academic consensus (i.e. Prometheus Books being a "divergent academic perspective"). I think blocking IseeEwe is an imperfect but acceptable way to give everyone some time to cool down. Shii (tock) 13:49, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Any block may be deemed too long by someone, and perhaps this one is, perhaps not. Calling it "absolutely excessive, MrScorch6200, is not a productive way of convincing your de facto opponent. But for any block deemed too long, there is an easy way out: a well-phrased unblock request that basically says "OK, I won't do it again". Rants rarely lead to unblocks; they do nothing but suggest that the block was proper. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Reviewing/discussing with another administrator presently ... Go Phightins! 17:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Endless soapboxing on Talk:Soka Gakkai is becoming disruptive to collaboration
UnresolvedWe need to use Talk:Soka Gakkai to reach a consensus about various changes being made to a large article about a very complex subject with delicate sourcing issues. I believe the article is in the process of being improved. But we have a problem with soapboxing by User:SafwanZabalawi. For years now, Safwan has been using the talk page to post long essays about media bias, religious freedom, and Japanese politics that are somewhat related to the topic of the article. Safwan does not edit the article, and has not since his rewrite was completely reverted and the article extended at length, around 2013. His only edits in 2014 are to this talk page and to a previous, unresolved ANI discussion about this soapboxing: Special:Contributions/SafwanZabalawi.
Something needs to be done about this. The talk page is becoming unusable precisely when we need to start using it more. Please take a look for yourself. Shii (tock) 06:22, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- As a contributor to the Talk page, I have to say that I find User:SafwanZabalawi's soapboxing as annoying as anyone. However, it's not exactly true to say that he doesn't edit the article. Here are the edit stats for the article, and here is a breakdown of his contributions. As you can see, he has contributed 44,881 bytes, far more than anyone else. The problem is that almost all of that material is gone. Here is the article as it was 1 year ago, and here is the article as it is today. They are two completely different articles. The article as it exists now has been systematically purged of all material sourced to people or organizations affiliated with the Gakkai, and replaced by material apparently selected to portray the Gakkai in the worst possible light. From comments in the Talk section, the editors in control of the article now seem to be on a mission to portray the organization as a cult, to bring to light incidents that (they contend) it is trying to hide, and to demonstrate that what the organization says about itself is untrue. The result is a highly negative (some might say defamatory) article. Unsurprisingly, people arrive on the Talk page to complain. And when they try to bring some balance back into the article, they are reverted almost immediately, usually on the grounds that the material is sourced to people or organizations affiliated with the Gakkai. I'm no expert in religious studies, but this seems like a strange attitude to me. Would it be possible to write an article about the Catholic or Luthern churches while systematically excluding material written by Catholics and Lutherns? So I would be as happy as anyone if the soapboxing would stop, but I suspect the problem might solve itself if these people were allowed to contribute again. --Margin1522 (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Soapboxing on the Talk page, involving several SPAs, and POV pushing with primary sources in the article go hand in hand. There have been editors, most prominently Daveler16, advocating the position that SG is a "sect" of Buddhism, and therefore should have its program/beliefs/etc., represented using primary sources without question. Catflap and I have gone over that particular issue from various angles, but he continually tries to reintroduce the subject matter[147].
- The soapboxing is accompanied by wall of text after wall of text, and that is symptomatic of an WP:IDHT attitude. The wave-after-wave of soapboxing walls of text has to be brought to an end.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑18:17, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- What is an SPA? And speaking of WP:IDHT I have patiently explained to both you and Catflap08 the difference between a "secondary" source and a "third-party" source. It seems you still don't get it. But thank you for highlighting the issue. Is it justified to enforce a blanket ban on all sources affiliated with the Gakkai? When we want to explain Catholic beliefs, is it unacceptable to cite a Catholic? --Margin1522 (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- What is an SPA? And speaking of
- I presume you are referring to the thread in which you made this post? Aside from the fact that you left out the aspect of the relationship between being independently published and having a COI, there are other assertions you make that seem inaccurate. Catflap and I have been editing the article in accordance with the sourcing policy, and the statements from publishers affiliated with SG have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to see if they are validly used or have a promotional dimension that exceeds the provision of information.
- You also said that you thought the "sect" issue was nitpicking, but since you are not well-versed in religious studies. Apparently didn't understand the quote I posted in response to you from the source published by Middleway press in which SG is referred to as a "sect". That source was presented by Daveler16 in an attempt to assert that SG is a sect, which is most definitely is not, and that makes the use of that source for unacceptable because it is a promotional assertion made in a source that is published by a press owned by SG.
- An SPA is a "single purpose account".--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 20:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- A case-by-case evaluation would be fine with me. About "sect", which you are making such a huge issue of, have we even established that the word appeared in a book? --Margin1522 (talk) 23:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I presume you are referring to the thread in which you made this post? Aside from the fact that you left out the aspect of the relationship between being independently published and having a COI, there are other assertions you make that seem inaccurate. Catflap and I have been editing the article in accordance with the sourcing policy, and the statements from publishers affiliated with SG have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to see if they are validly used or have a promotional dimension that exceeds the provision of information.
- @admins Part of the reason that Margin1522 is asking content related questions here is because there is an inordinate amount of text on the Talk page due to soapboxing. I'm not going to rehash the issues here, or respond to Margin1522 until they read all of the related discussions; however, this clearly demonstrates the degree to which the soapboxing has become detrimental to content creation.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 11:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have to add that I am quite disappointed this has had no outside response so far. Shii (tock) 13:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- GB fan If that is the only input you--whom I assume are an admin--are willing to provide here, then Arbcom is on the horizon for this article in the not-too-distant future. AN/I seems to basically be a waste of time and effort.
- Let me just add that, as can be seen below, the soapboxing walls-of-text being posted by the editor that is the subject of this thread and several SPAs is based on WP:IDHT. Editors engaged in creating content in accordance with policy cannot be expected to repeatedly present the same policy-based arguments to defend the encyclopedia against the a continual flood of non-policy compliant material posted by the same editors or newly minted SPAs, so there is a necessity to have a mechanism that redresses such editing conduct. I can't understand why a single admin hasn't seen it necessary to at least issue a warning to SafwanZabalawi and any of the soapboxing SPAs.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑16:15, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ubikwit, That is not the only input that I will give here. I just wanted to get that out before Shii did something they might regret later. Since I have never edited in this area before I am reading through the article, the talk page, the other associated ANI and looking around at the histories. I don't want to jump into the middle of this without knowing the background for myself. The large amount of information that I am seeing might be the reason that no one has done anything up to this point. It might be later today or tomorrow before I can make more of a post as I has some personal business to take care of in an hour or so. GB fan 16:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- GB fan OK, thanks. No doubt it will take some time to go through that material. As long as some one is taking this seriously, I don't think anyone is in a rush.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- GB fan: Thanks for looking into this, I retract my above threat/whining. Shii (tock) 23:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ubikwit, That is not the only input that I will give here. I just wanted to get that out before Shii did something they might regret later. Since I have never edited in this area before I am reading through the article, the talk page, the other associated ANI and looking around at the histories. I don't want to jump into the middle of this without knowing the background for myself. The large amount of information that I am seeing might be the reason that no one has done anything up to this point. It might be later today or tomorrow before I can make more of a post as I has some personal business to take care of in an hour or so. GB fan 16:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Let me just add that, as can be seen below, the soapboxing walls-of-text being posted by the editor that is the subject of this thread and several SPAs is based on
Attempt to drag content dispute into ANI thread
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:::I hope this is not soapboxing but much of the argument about primary and secondary sources is based on Ubikwit's injection of
List of New Religious Movements .
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@ Margin1522 Sorry it might be a long and laborious task to go through the history of the the article. I myself do not edit the article too much – to be honest I can not be bothered most of the time. At one stage there were just a few critical remarks in the article that some adherents of the group contested in a somewhat disruptive, fanatic and schizophrenic manner. Also I do not think Wikipedia should be used for the praise of an organisation and its “dear leader”. Doubts on the organisations character are out there – based on secondary sources. I have no probs to describe the organisation, also how it sees itself, but attacks on critical issues, documented by non-affiliated resources, annoy me to put it mildly. I also do severely doubt the mental status of some of the major contributors to the article and to the talk page. --Catflap08 (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
139.190.199.244 Edit warring, disruptive editing, COI?
139.190.199.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
'Promotes' actor Shah Rukh Khan as first billed on Indian films over other actors who are first billed in refs. Quickly restarted with Shah Rukh Khan promotions after expiration of block for this reason. Has not replied to my query or comments on their talk page. COI?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 and about 20 others. Jim1138 (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)