Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive577

I haven't taken an exhaustive look at the article's history, but what I have looked at shows Off2riorob doing a fine job enforcing BLP and other core content policies. If claims of his disruption are to continue, I think some

diff evidence is in order. – Luna Santin (talk

) 07:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

A somewhat related question: I haven't closed any AfD discussions lately, but isn't the Talk page of an article supposed to have a link back to the AfD thread that discussed it's deletion? I happened to have a look at the talk page of this article, & found it odd that there wasn't one. (And even if it's not required, I think it would be a sign of good faith to have such a link here.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

After the discussion is closed, yes -- looks like it was closed by a non-admin, and then re-opened, though, so you might have looked around then. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I looked between the time it was closed (after Richmondian added his comment about "now we can move on") & the close was re-opened. One reason I was uneasy about the status of this article, & wondered if there was something wrong there. -- llywrch (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Every edit to date made by 070time070 has been to add a reference to a particular domain, http://stilltitled.com/. None of them are particularly reliable (this appears to be some sort of ad-hoc blog with no particular organization or claim to authority), and with the exception of a couple references added to the Lord Palmerston page, none of them are even relevant to the text they are theoretically supporting; at best they mention the topic they are supporting by reference, but they aren't actually supporting the text. At first I thought this was just a new editor not familiar with the rules, but the fact that every edit links to the same site, with the same lack of concern for even basic relevance makes me think this may be a COI problem. I've written a few notes/warnings to the user on their talk page, but an admin with better grasp of the exact COI guidelines may wish to keep an eye on them and make sure they either cease this behavior or ban them. --ShadowRangerRIT (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Probably simpler than this - they are trying to advertise their blog. final warning given; if it continues, take to AIV.

Tan | 39

20:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Network neutrality in the United States. -- ArglebargleIV (talk

) 00:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

For convenience here's the link to the BLP/N discussion. (By the time I got through the 6xEC's to fix my link it was already added above)--Cube lurker (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Multiple discussions over the period of a month show a unanimous support for inclusion. All nicknames are sourced.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

One columnist using the nickname does not mean we include it here. Also, the "per WP:BOXING" conversation wasn't specifically about this article.

Tan | 39

20:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

"One columnist using the nickname" - so you would rather check the word of Harrisons brother and managers over an experienced editor and EVERY editor on the Boxing Project that says to include it? This just a case of an couple of editors from the BLP pages with wounded pride, a lack of an argument and serious ownership issues.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

How is any of the other nicknames gonna become well known, if they're barred from the article. GoodDay (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you implying that it is our job at en.wiki to make someone's nicknames more popular?

Tan | 39

20:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is it so terrible to add 'atleast' one more nickname. Would it be alright if it's positive? PS: I'm implying that a 'negative' name gives 'balance'. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

We don't determine inclusion of material based on whether or not it is "so terrible". We do it based on strength of sourcing and BLP policy. I see no consensus, at any forum, that these particular nicknames should be included. Note I am (now) involved, so my participation here is not admin-related.

Tan | 39

21:04, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

If 'such' nicknames were allowed by the BLP, would that sufice? GoodDay (talk) 21:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

YOU SEE NO CONCENSUS??? HAVE YOU READ THE MONTH LONG DISCUSSION ON THE BOXING PROJECT OR THE MULTIPLE SOURCES PROVED??--Vintagekits (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the BLP over-rules WP:BOXING in this incident, Vk. Atleast, that seems to be the case. GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagekits has again put them back in he is effectively edit warring again over the issue. Here is the recent history.

Off2riorob (talk

) 21:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

There is 100% concensus to include the nickname - there has been a month long discussion to approce it. There is no concensus to remove them - its is sourced information therefore you are edit warring by removing it.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Has anybody checked into the COI concerns at that article? Such concerns were raised months ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course not - Off2riorobb and his mate Cube lurker are too busy defending "their patch" on the BLP page - dont dare disagree with them!!!!!!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Another admin needs to look into this ASAP. There is no "100% consensus". Not even close. the WP:BOXING discussion wasn't specifically about this issue. As far as I'm concerned, VK is merely going back to his old IDIDNTHEARTHAT ways. I am too involved to take action.

Tan | 39

21:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

User Good Day has made a request to get the page protected, I have requested if it is protected that it is done with the disputed edit removed.

Off2riorob (talk

) 21:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

What a loads of balls - everyone on the boxing project agreed to insult both positive and negative nocknames - the Harrison case is specifically referred to. Every nickname is sourced! So what is policy the issue here expcept that we are pandering to the egos of TWO editors that run the BLP page and consider their word law.

Edit within policy and yer fucked - edit outside policy and yer fucked! I suppose it all depends who yer mates are and whos arse ya lick?!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: I've request 'full protection' for the article. I don't wanna see anybody getting blocked. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Vintagkits, you are becoming uncivil, please stay calm.

Off2riorob (talk

) 21:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the new content and fully protected the page for 3 days. JamieS93 21:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

So you have removed sourced information to satisy two editors POV? Well done!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

At least that calms the situation, thanks. But the not listening and aggressive repeated reinsertion style of editing in respect of an edit that got Vintagekits a two week block beggars belief.

Off2riorob (talk

) 21:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I want to smash the fucking screen when I read the sdfasdfasdfasdfasdfas that you pass off and the state of events. EVERYTHING I have done is based on FACTS and POLICY and your whole position is based on opinion! This place is a joke.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

VK, ya got 3-days to work with at BLP (the the article is protected). That appears to be the place to get a consensus for your additions. If it doesn't get passed? it'll be towel throwing time. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• Right, it there actually an issue here or was all of this just shit stirred up by
  Off2riorob who cant stand the fact that he isnt getting his own way. Is this an issue for ANI? All of the content that was added to the Harrison article is backed by multiple sources which are reliable sources - including boxing trade magazines and national newspapers. So if they common nicknames, backed up by multiple sources and agreed at the Boxing Project that multiple nicknames should go in the infobox then what is the issue. Less than flattering nicknames are used for multiple fighters - the nickname issue is a big one with regards Harrison so why are we allowing Off2riorob dictate what goes on here? --Vintagekits (talk
  ) 09:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

You take it too personal, it is not me that is dictating what happens here, it is wikipedia policy and guidelines that is resisting you. Please allow me to suggest you take a little time to calm down over this issue.

Off2riorob (talk

) 11:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well you are the fuckin one that brought all this too ANI - to me that is shit stirring and making it personal especially when your opening "complaint" doesnt outline an breach of policy. Have you actually got an issue - if so what is it? becuase anytime you are asked a straight question you shift the goal posts. First it was that there werent in common use - I provided multiple sources to prove it was. Then is was because it wasnt in context - I added a paragraph to the article to put it in context (even though the official nickname or no other nickname on wikipedia is explained in the article), then it was because it was derogatory - wikipedia isnt censored so thats a red herring. Then you said there wasnt concensus to use it - the Boxing Project discussed the issue and an overwhelming majority decided that nicknames such as this should be used. What exactly is your issue here? Multiple boxers have nicknames they are commonly known by that they dont like - we arnt here to pander to their emotions, we reflect reality and the sources provided. --Vintagekits (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Guidelines overpower WikiProjects. I had to learn & deal with this fact at WP:HOCKEY concerning usage of diacrtics. Guidelines are no fun, when you're in disagreement with them. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Which guideline or policy is breached by the inclusion of this sourced material.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP. See the link right at the top of this discussion. --John (talk

) 16:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Was wondering when I would see the like of your kind drop in. What part of BLP is breached?--Vintagekits (talk) 17:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Request: Can we close this ANI report? it's turning into a discussion, which should be held at either W:BLP or atleast Audley Harrison. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

User Vintagekits continued aggressive attitude regarding this is starting to upset me, he's shouting around everywhere, his referring to another good faith user as "the likes of your kind" is uncivil in itself.

Off2riorob (talk

) 17:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What like the way you tried to warn GoodDay from supporting my position! Get a grip of yerself, stop bitching and address to points raised!--Vintagekits (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe we've reached a 2-editors understanding, at my talkpage.

• I have started a new
  BLP noticeboard thread about this. Please direct any further comments there, including proposals/compromises, so discussion can be centralized. Thanks, JamieS93
  20:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I have today created a list: Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel [2]

User:Gilabrand has repeatedly changed the name of the article although there is a requested move right now at the talkpage that the outcome of is not clear. He has changed it to a name that has no connection with the article content and is not even discussed at the talkpage. He claims at the talkpage that its not a list and he has once again changed the name of it, and added content that has nothing to do with the topic, he has also removed image, categories and templates in direct connection to the article [3]

He has also begun name calling [4] the only reason why he remove it was because he was asked at his talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Here's an oddity I don't know how to fix. It looks like User:Msilbergeld used his/her User page as a sandbox to write Dylana Jenson. When the article was moved from userspace to article space, [5], it of course dragged the user's talk page User talk:Msilbergeld with it. We now have an article on the violinist Dylana Jenson, whose talk page is the user talk page of the editor Msilbergeld. The move occurred about six weeks ago, and the article has continued to be edited; and is certainly a notable violinist; so I didn't want to attempt to undo the move, even if I could (I'm not an admin, and am guessing I could not undo the move).

I haven't raised it with the editor yet because a) I doubt he/she could fix it, either and b) seeing as the editor talk page redirects to article talk space, there's no user talk page to leave the appropriate message on.

What's the fix? TJRC (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk page has been moved back and the redirect deleted.

Bencherlite^Talk

21:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I know that articles are not to contain redirects into the user namespace (per

WP:R#DELETE

) ... but in this case we have the opposite because of where this was created, the user's main user page (not a subpage) is now a redirect to an article.

I can't find a specific policy or guideline against this; but it can be confusing as anyone who follows a sig to the user's page would be redirected to an article - and if they then try to post to the talk page not realizing it's not the user page, it just results in confusion. Should the user's page also be deleted (or at least the redirect blanked)? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleting it makes sense to me. It doesn't look like it was purposefully created to link to the article spacee. It's just an artifact of the page move from userspace. I'm not sure why

WP:R#DELETE was written not to cover this scenario, too. It seems to me that a user --> main redirect is not ordinarily appropriate any more than a main --> user redirect is (wlthough I can see why the latter is more harmful). TJRC (talk

) 21:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the userpage redirect, and have offered some advice on creating a personal sandbox. Mjroots (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all for addressing this. TJRC (talk) 18:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Block and removal of talk page editing rights correct

Clearly not here to contribute constructively. I've indeffed Damian Nerd (talk · contribs) and following this threat I've also denied him access to his talk page. Just notifying here for a second opinion. If it is felt that he should have access to his talk page please feel free to reset. Mjroots (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Five contributions, all vandalism. What's not to block :) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Obviously an appropriate block. Would have done the same myself. MuZemike 22:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys, still learning and am happy to be guided by more experienced admins. Mjroots (talk) 22:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• Go Chuck Yourself Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This page appears to be a recreation of a recreation of a deleted page per an

•  Done the article was substantially identical to the deleted version. Someone should maybe start a discussion with the editor who keeps creating it; he seems to have a bit of a problem with creating multiple non-notable pages, and repeatedly creating the same page after AFD. --Jayron32 02:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Jayron. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 03:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Another one?

Yeah I'm going to have to have a word with this user. Underclass Hero Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Somebody look into this please and I'll see if this user would like to have a quick chat. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 03:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted; it's a phoenix. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 07:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – No admin action warranted. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a formal written complaint about on-going unapologetic uncivil behavior by User:Pmanderson. Out of the blue he seems to have some big problem with me. After I politely asked him to justify his tagging of Formal system, not only did he refuse to do so, he intemperately called for banning me from editing the article. I thought that was a little harsh out of the blue like that. My notion of civility is that we don't need to call the authorities over the slightest little thing. If he thinks this is appropriate, I would suggest that is consistent with a very impatient and arrogant person who doesn't belong in a collaborative environment.

He continued his attitude at

Let the record show, that I have done what I need to do as a good faith editor and civil wp editor to deserve to be free from these attacks. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 04:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I've notified the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 04:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the rare cases of everybody else who has an opinion on a dispute agreeing with Pmanderson, so I see no chance of any fellow editors from

transformation rules of a formal system." [6] In case you find this as confusing as I (a logician who knows the meaning of all the words in this gibberish) do: The article previously said, correctly, that a theorem is "a statement proved on the basis of previously accepted or established statements such as axioms

."

Since his edit was reverted, he has created two content forks of theorem in order to continue his POV pushing there.

While Gregbard is doing some valuable work categorising and systematising logic related articles, his obfuscationist POV pushing and his ability to seek out and then vigorously push the most eccentric published views on any topic makes him a net negative for Wikipedia. This conflict flares up regularly, and each time he claims it's the experts (usually the mathematicians, since we have only few philosophers in Wikipedia) who are completely wrong and don't understand the topics discussed in the articles he is messing with.

Relevant essays: Primarily

WP:RANDY. Hans Adler

10:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

PS: The core of the discussion can be found at

WT:WPM#Theorem. Hans Adler

10:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Pontiff Greg Bard has also just set up what I consider a

Dmcq (talk

) 11:18, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree however there has been some incivility towards Pontiff Greg Bard. In particular I noticed a statement 'Greg Bard, knowing neither mathematics or philosophy' by User:Pmanderson in the maths project. We should discuss the subject not the person. A particular edit may show misunderstandings but it's best not to generalize to the person.

Dmcq (talk

) 11:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

It takes a lot of self-restraint, though, not to make such personal statements in the 100th unproductive discussion with the same obsessive Randy. Hans Adler 11:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that all sides should try to make more of an effort to be civil here. Although, I must say, the existence of the

WT:WPM that I look forward to the day when this essay (as well as the accompanying template) are deleted. Although perhaps it was written with good intentions, its only actual function seems to be to inflame disputes. Le Docteur (talk

) 13:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

One of the minor problems here is that GregBard gives no signs of noticing that Quine's coinage of mathematosis is a jeu d'esprit, from a book modelled on Voltaire's

Philosophical Dictionary

.

The other major problem is that Greg Bard, who goes around signing himself Pontiff, is accusing everyone else of pride, apparently because we will not defer to his pontifical authority. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No admin action is needed here. GregBard, your options are

I have today created a list: Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel [7]

User:Gilabrand has repeatedly changed the name of the article although there is a requested move right now at the talkpage that the outcome of is not clear. He has changed it to a name that has no connection with the article content and is not even discussed at the talkpage. He claims at the talkpage that its not a list and he has once again changed the name of it, and added content that has nothing to do with the topic, he has also removed image, categories and templates in direct connection to the article [8]

He has also begun name calling [9] the only reason why he remove it was because he was asked at his talkpage. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Update, this user is now actively vandalizing the article, can an admin please do something? [10] [11] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Both Gilabrand and Supreme Deliciousness violated

Any warning at all for either?

Tan | 39

14:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No warning. However - They've both been blocked for abusive behavior before, they've been warned about it. They know what the expectations are. They walked into it aware of the consequences and chose to butt heads that hard anyways... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

A small edit war occured on this template early over the inclusion of a 500 year old sketch of a naked Adam and Eve. The user responsible for this edit war is Cajun tiger (talk · contribs). At first I thought this was just a run-of-the-mill "OMG, think of the children!" sort of issue, but on further investigation, I found what appears to be Cajun's website: http://carolinacajun.wordpress.com/ In it, he says: Seems in order to change this I need to get "consensus from the community" that it is offensive (because "what offends you personally is not an issue"). So, if you have a minute, please email [email protected] and tell them the picture of the nudes on the Template:GenderChristianity page is offensive to you and would they please remove it. If you have a login to Wikipedia, visit the page (you can search either of the terms below to get there) and post on the "talk" page that you find it offensive... I can confirm that several emails from different individuals have been received at info-en-v, but as I've responded to those, I'm not going to involve myself further on the Wiki side of this. Posting this to let everyone else decide what to do, if anything. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Not sure what's going on, but it's not an attack on an admin. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone put a stop to this kind of attack on an admin? None of those articles are even related to the editor badgering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.42.123 (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not an attack, and it's 5 days old, and DS has edited the page himself since then.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Appears to have been dealt with by someone more powerful than I. Frmatt (talk) 21:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please deal with this and this. Users not notified for obvious reasons. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Appears to have been dealt with, no diffs found upon clicking. Frmatt (talk) 21:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Could some admins and normal editors help clear out the backlog of vandalism here? I swear, some days I'll see articles tagged and deleted in seconds, and other days I'll tag a vandal article and watch it remain up for over 24 hours. A little insignificant ^{Bloated on candy} 21:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, we're not supposed to

bite the newcomers, are we? :) MuZemike

21:28, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

They're not supposed to

talk

) 22:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Neuromancer has also contributed several copyright violations, cutting and pasting from copyrighted sources without quoting or citing. This edit contains nine paragraphs copied verbatim from avert.org and a sentence and references copied from another website without citation. Warnings and explanations (Talk:HIV#Copyright_violations_by_Neuromancer, [12]) were ignored, with the user later performing another unreferenced copy and paste from a copyrighted website.

Neuromancer, after threatening to wikistalk ("However, I will be sure to peruse EVERY edit to EVERY article you have contributed to, just on the off chance you have somehow detracted from those articles as well"), has begun to make good on this threat by becoming engaged at Magnetic water treatment (an article on my watchlist), Cancell (an article contributed to by User:MastCell, [[13]) and Medical uses of silver, following talk page interactions, including an accusation of censorship, with a regular silver editor, User:Hipocrite. Each of these editors has warned Neuromancer about a variety of behaviours in the past, with invariably hostile response. The diversity and scope of Neuromancer's disruptions suggests that intervention could be appropriate. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll add my voice, as an involved editor/admin, to the request for some outside eyes here. Neuromancer (talk · contribs) has been active in pressing an AIDS-denialist agenda across numerous articles (representative edit). Issues include:

• Persistent edit-warring (block log)
• Canvassing potentially sympathetic editors ([14]), [15], [16], [17]).
• Most of his non-HIV-related edits seem to be based on
  Dennis Ketcham ([18]
  ), etc).
• Creation of numerous POV forks, including
  HIV dissent
  .
• This sort of thing - not that I'm fussed about having my IQ questioned - it's probably barely above room temperature anyway - but it's a bit grating coming from someone who's constantly accusing others of personal attacks and failure to assume good faith.
• Constant references to a "WP:HIV cabal", by which Neuromancer presumably means editors who hold the "POV" that HIV causes AIDS.
• Very basic
  WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - despite extensive forum-shopping, and hearing a universal rejection of his proposed edits, Neuromancer keeps repeating the same arguments (see the last 5 or 6 threads at Talk:HIV for examples). He's indicated that he's "not going to stop" just because a "cabal" opposes his edits
  .
• He's cut-and-pasted a long section from an AIDS-denialist website, and then complained of having "hours of research" erased when this was reverted (will find diffs).

I would like some outside eyes on the situation, if anyone's willing. I don't want to be melodramatic, but these are the sorts of challenges that Wikipedia needs to handle effectively if it ever hopes to achieve its goal of becoming a serious, respectable reference work. MastCell ^Talk 21:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at the diffs, talk pages, and assorted miscellany included here, this looks like a case of POV-pushing, with some intransigent statements by Neuromancer. I fear that this is just a continuation of a problem we've seen several times here over the last few weeks (and probably longer) where people with a strong, but minority or fringe POV feel like they are backed into a corner by consensus against them. While I'm not sure that their behaviour is indicative of a block, is there someone who would be willing (and more knowledgeable than I in these particular subjects) to work with Neuromancer to help them understand why their view is

fringe

and that this isn't personal, its just community consensus that happens to disagree with what they believe? I would also appreciate hearing from both Neuromancer, MastCell, and Hipocrite about their opinions.

On a semi-related note, how do we allow users such as Neuromancer to feel like they have been given an adequate opportunity to have their point of view heard and discussed and not simply swatted out of the air (not that this has happened here...but can happen very easily). While their points of view may be fringe, and not follow community consensus, how do we continue to honour their contributions while maintaining the integrity of WP, and without driving them away?

I'll return to this conversation a little later...its supper time! Frmatt (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that Neuromancer has been resistant to guidance, and has been very confrontational at times. The exchanges on Talk:HIV have been lengthy, but I do think some have been constructive - they've dealt with substantive issues, and resulted in edits that improved the article (only incrementally, though). I have not followed the activity outside Talk:HIV, but those diffs are disheartening. The WP culture takes some getting used to, and plunging into HIV was probably a mistake for a new editor. I'd like to see Neuromancer get some guidance, to understand the difference between disagreement and conspiracy. It's tiring and disruptive when an editor insists that others formally prove numerous well-established concepts that are already supported by reliable sources. -- Scray (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

• As someone who's interacted extensively with Neuromancer on Talk:HIV, I agree most with Scray's characterization. Emw (talk) 00:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

• As someone who has interacted, discussed, argued, and usually reached something of a consensus with both Scray and Emw (both of whom I have come to admire for their ability to semi effectively deal with me), and whom I have had much more interaction than anyone else involved in this discussion, I would like to to put out there than I am more than open to discourse of policy, disagreement and conspiracy.
• Additionally, I would like to point out that I do not believe there is a conspiracy to get rid of me, or I would already be gone. My references to the HIV cabal are due to this post on my talk page, and is mostly an attempt at humor, not an impassioned belief that "you are all after me..." Thank you for your patience, and I agree, perhaps HIV was not the place to jump into the Wikipedia as I have. But I am here, and trying to make the best of it. Neuromancer (talk) 00:29, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

As the guy who posted that, it was really in response to Mister Hospodar who happened to post some paranoid kind of stuff on Neuro's user talk. It is supposed to be a smidge humorous; it's actually a rather long-standing joke turned wisdom on wiki. However, I chose that link of all the essays on non-existent cabals to highlight that there is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it. I guess it didn't take the desired effect as Neuro began referring to cabals afterward, rats.

I full well admit that I took and ran, more as humorous jab back at you, and a few others, than anything serious. I don't think there is a cabal, HOWEVER, there are a group of you who very adamantly defend and revert edits on a number of similar pages. After reading your posted words of wisdom, I thought it humorously appropriate to throw it back at you in kind. My references to a cabal have never been more than half-hearted humor in an attempt to lighten the situation. Seeing as how you are the only one who got the joke... Well, crap! Neuromancer (talk) 02:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Heh, well, good to know now then! Thanks for clarifying. JoeSmack ^Talk 02:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, here are my words on the subject. Neuro isn't the only fellow who's made himself heard towards AIDS denialism on talk pages over the years. In particular though, there has been a lot of passion from him that is very accusatory, and this more than anything began sparking contention.

I really tried to steer the conversation as much as possible to specific constructive discourse about articles in question [19], but largely this opportunity was not taken advantage of. Instead, in response to his broad debates, there have been several clear, spelled out arguments highlighting the faults in the particular angle he takes on AIDS denialism ([20], [21] to name a couple i did). The AfD for the content fork of AIDS denialism alone should be a pretty clear wake up call.

I think he hears and sees them but is still trying to game policy/guidelines in his favor, such as omitting "although content may be shortened or moved if it gives undue weight to a minor point of view, as explained below." to the

WP:YESPOV quote in his response below, etc. There has probably been a bit a wikistalking, and cries of censorship/this must be heard/you can't erase history kind of brew-ha-ha, but I like keeping editors more than loosing them so I would love to see mentoring or fostering of better habits than blocks. JoeSmack ^Talk

02:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It appears in regards to his below YESPOV quote with relevant (e.g. oppositional to his motives) info omitted, his response is this: [22]. A fairly by-the-book

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. It could be that mentoring/fostering isn't an option after all. JoeSmack ^Talk

09:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, Special:Contributions/24.251.114.169 and probably Special:Contributions/174.17.102.170 are Neuro, but he denies the latter here. Sockpuppety. JoeSmack ^Talk 20:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Loudly claims the 24; the 174 geolocates to Phoenix, AZ, where the Fatcat Ballroom & Dance Company is located. - 2/0 (cont.

) 00:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Is an

WP:SPI warranted, perchance? Crafty (talk

) 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Neuro emailed me a protest. If it puts one of these many issues to rest (either way), I think it would be worth it. However, this is right on the line of

CheckUser criteria. Up to you. JoeSmack ^Talk

02:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I doubt CU would be informative. Neuromancer just posted on their

RBI any account unwilling to discuss and let the AfD run its course would be my advice. - 2/0 (cont.

) 18:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Knowing that ANI is not necessarily the place to propose any type of restrictions, I would like to ask Neuromancer if they would be amenable to having an uninvolved editor work with them to help them understand the policies? Specifically, that when Neuromancer finds themselves in an edit/content conflict, that they would invite their mentor/coach into the conversation as someone who is relatively impartial and working to ensure that they understand the policies about

WP:POV, especially when they find themselves in conflict. Frmatt (talk

) 04:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Email response by Neuromancer posted by 2over0:

I would be most amenable to having an uninvolved editor work with me. I am certainly not trying to cause a disruption to WP. Perhaps an experienced editor/admin, who has not previously been involved in the topics of this debate, would be willing to work with me to fix what appears to be flawed logic. Or at the very least be able to show me a more constructive manner in which to present information that won't be as disruptive as it has been. Who knows... Maybe I'll bring em around to my side? Haha, joking.

end of response by Neuromancer. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

If an appropriate mentor steps forward, this would be possibly the best solution, and could be implemented in tandem with or in lieu of the sanctions I propose below. Neuromancer is a bit forceful and currently frustrated, but I think could be an asset to the project if given a little time and help to come to grips with the peculiar sourcing and neutrality requirements here. Any takers? - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Response by Neuromancer

I assume that I can weigh in on this conversation?

• First and foremost, I have edited in good faith, with the intent to better the Wikipedia in general.
• Secondly, I am not trying to push a fringe POV. This is my understanding, please correct me if I am mistaken...

• Wikipolicy requires at WP:NPOV that “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” It further requires at WP:YESPOV that “Article content should not be deleted solely on the grounds that it is "POV"" and that "The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints.”

That being said, I have also reviewed WP Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which states:

• Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

I fully understand that there are those who think that questioning the science behind HIV is ridiculous and worthy of censoring, however, there are those in the scientific community, who have published peer reviewed papers, questioned many aspects of HIV, AIDS, and the connection between the two. While the cabal[24] currently editing the

AIDS denialism

articles claims a NPOV, and that they do not have to give equal eight to fringe POV, a simple review of their resistance to the inclusion of balanced information, whether it be in those articles, or in separate articles, seems very clear that they are not willing to be neutral on the subject.

As far as "Wikistalking" as Hipocrite has accused me of, I cannot even begin to express how petulant that statement is. While I will admit that I have reviewed other editors contributions, and even weighed in on a couple of the articles that they have been involved in, I am not now, nor have I ever, edited an article simply to "frustrate" another editor. This accusation was posted to my talk page by Hipocrite just this morning. While I do tend to have an interest in alternative health treatments, such as HIV, cancer, etc, I have also edited such articles as the Fort hood shooting. I think it is an unfair characterization to say that I am stalking anyone.

When it comes to canvassing... I fail to see how mentioning to another editor that a discussion is taking place that they may be interested in, is somehow a bad thing. I in fact copied this practice from such editors as Verbal and Hipocrite, who routinely post messages on one another's talk pages requesting input regarding a particular topic of debate throughout the Wiki. I have not requested that they take a particular viewpoint, merely that they have expressed interest in the topic in the past, and may be interested in the current conversation. Here is the most recent example I can readily find [25], or Nunh-huh, JoeSmack, TechBear.

I have not cut and pasted long sections from denialist web sites. I did take a list of factors known to cause false positive HIV antibody tests, which had 64 references, and use it in the site, and the original compiler was given credit. The references did not have any DOI or PMID information, let alone being suitable for Wiki formatting. Each and every one of those references was researched, updated, verified to be on point, and formated by me. I would call that hours of research.

As far as the "creation of numerous POV forks... I cannot agree with that. I have created 3 articles here. 2 on the topic of HIV. Initially, I un-forwarded

HIV dissent and created article content there. That was nominated for deletion, and reverted back to a forward, the next day, prior to a discussion or consensus being reached. So I then created a new namespace, Alternative HIV viewpoints

, where I published relatively the same article, which has also been nominated for deletion. Again, prior to the AfD discussion closing, the article was wiped and forwarded, and for trying to prevent this, I received a 24 hour ban. How is consensus and discussion supposed to take place when there is no article to discuss?

Neuromancer (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I hope someone realizes that it is highly coincidental that a user who has edited what - 5 mainspace articles has somehow overlapped and edit-warred against people he has disagreements with on 4 of them - and those 4 are in totally disparate subjects, with the note that he has expressed an interest in a 5th, totally disparate subject here. How far does AGF go? Hipocrite (talk) 23:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

• Incidentally, I became involved with Dennis the Menace because I was following AfD, not you. When you nominate an article for delete or merge, it is common courtesy to allow the discussion to take place for the requisite 7 days. Blanking and forwarding is just rude, and makes any discussion difficult. Neuromancer (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Colloidal Silver has been used in Alternative HIV and Cancer treatments. It is not, as you say, "disparate." I have not intentionally edit warred with anyone. After it was brought to my attention, I changed my behavior. I have been involved in edit controversy in HIV and Alternative HIV Viewpoints. If there is another article you think is relevant, please list it. Neuromancer (talk) 23:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Analysis of Neuromancer's edits: article coincidences

Neuromancer has to date edited 59 unique articles. Comparing edits with the people notified of this discussion by Keepcalmandcarryon indicates that 54 of those have also been edited by at least one person on the list (I am making comparison using different tools and a little inclusion/exclusion counting, so bear with me as they may measure unique article in different ways; also note that I am involved in several places). Subtracting the AIDS-related articles, usertalk, and a few obviously benign cases gives: Aspartame was edited by Keepcalmandcarryon two days before Neuromancer's first edit; Cancell was not edited by anyone on the list in the days preceding Neuromancer's first edit; Fatcat Ballroom & Dance Company was created by Neuromancer; Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denialism (2nd nomination) is clear, though Denialism itself was edited by Verbal the day before; Kristian Ayre and AfD are clear - Nm probably got there from ARS; Talk:Dennis Ketcham was edited by Hipocrite earlier that day; Talk:Medical uses of silver was recently edited by Hipocrite and MastCell; Talk:Magnetic water treatment was recently edited by Keepcalmandcarryon, Someguy1221, and me; Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catbus had been recently edited by me, but had also been tagged for ARS; Fort Hood shooting and talk had been recently edited by JoeSmack, though that article is highly active right now.

Alternatively, given the failure to follow obvious community norms such as engaging productively with other editors and not seeking out confrontation, multiple attempts to add content in an end-run around consensus, and multiple instances of copying without attribution, including from patently unreliable sources including virusmyth.com and IMDB, a full community ban may be in order. Please discuss these proposals below. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

As Neuromancer has been blocked 48 hours for edit warring, I have volunteered to relay their concerns here if necessary. As always, please refrain from piling on while Nm cannot edit here. - 2/0 (cont.) 00:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Email response by Neuromancer posted by 2over0:

I am repeatedly requested to find consensus before edits, which I have done on

The only real issue regarding disruptive editing has been in regard to Alternative HIV viewpoints. I understand that I do not own the article. I understand that it may very well be deleted in the near future. However, here are the salient issues that I have:

• [26], [27], [28], [29] In these edits, the exact same information has been removed each time. Please review the diffs. The entire chapter is properly referenced to scientific publication such as "Applied Environmental Microbiology," "Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences," US patent #4520113, etc. In this edit, there was no regard for the information. There was no consensus reached, or even discussed on the talk page. There is no synthesis. This is not an article that falls within the purview of Medicine. This is an article entitled "Alternative HIV Viewpoints." As it was created, it is not a POV Fork. The idea was to present the claims of scientists who disagree with the current HIV community. There are films being made about these topics. There are papers being published in peer reviewed journals, such as this one in 2008, which dissent on the currently accepted HIV hypothesis.

• • No consensus was reached before wholesale deleting MASSIVE amounts of information. No attempt was made to clean up language accused of being POV. Rather, it was just deleted. Not one person who has attempted to keep this information off of WP has been able to provide a SINGLE citation discrediting the information in this article. Yes, there is a reference to virusmyth.com. It is to source the quote of what certain dissenters believe was wrong with the current information. It's not synth. It's not there to support a medical claim. The reference is there to show where the idea came from. It is one of MANY ideas.

• Rather than editing the article, it is deleted, forwarded, called synth and POV fork, and unsourced. This is not the case. I have spent hours reading medical journals verifying each of the actual medical claims on this article. Granted, I did start with Christine Johnson's list, which she was credited for. But that is a list. Journal references that were no longer valid, or since debunked, were removed. Each citation was verified and wikified so that others could simply click on the ref and be taken to the article.

• I am being accused of doing EXACTLY what my accusers are doing. Except that if you actually read the article, and the references, you will see that this is not synth, or a POV fork. Compare it to
  HIV denialism
  focuses on a POV that HIV denialists have caused harm, have been debunked, disproved, etc. Yet there are no references to where they have been disproved. I have looked for these references, and have been unable to locate any. I have found NON scientific articles, written by journalists, and judges, but not anything from the scientific community. Yet when I present actual scientific published works, I am POV pushing. This is not the case.

• As far as the mad props I have received for being Superman, please review my talk page.

end of response by Neuromancer. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Neuromancer indicates above a willingness to work with a mentor to help them contribute within the project's policies. I think that this could be productive, but am myself both too involved and too unskilled in the area. If anyone is interested in the role, please step forward. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Neuromancer's willingness to accept mentorship is encouraging. However, Neuromancer has yet to recognise their problems with straightforward policies such as copyright violation and sockpuppetry; their insistence that the "other" Arizona IP is not a sock or meatpuppet is, quite frankly, ridiculous. These aren't subtle matters in which a mentor's guidance could help, but I would be pleased to find out otherwise. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Anyone who participates in deliberate outing in the future will be immediately banned. Spellcast (talk) 07:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – IP Editor blocked for 1 week by

User:MuZemike

96.36.28.60

Persistent incivility and edit-warring by the above user on Twinking, its talk page and edit summaries. He was taken to task about this some time ago at Wikiquette alerts but the discussion was inconclusive. That discussion details the original instances of incivility and edit warring and itself contains extensive incivility against the uninvolved editors who took up the discussion. While that discussion was taking place, he continued to post uncivil, inflammatory comments towards uninvolved editors on the Twinking talk page: e.g. here. He has again begun edit warring on the Twinking page, reverting with spurious reasons e.g. [35] and trolling the talk page [36]. He also seems to have used a sockpuppet, Stormrider99 in the Wikiquette alerts discussion. Propose a block. bridies (talk) 04:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Appears to be an uncivil editor who reacts negatively when someone tries to inform him of the policies in a polite and civil manner. Endorse a block. Frmatt (talk) 04:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

This edit [37] would seem to indicate the IP does not understand our

WP:RS policies. Exxolon (talk

) 04:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

IP Blocked 1 week for edit-warring, blatant incivility, and sock puppetry. MuZemike 04:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you suppose this [38] is an unblock request? Can't see it working myself. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I try and do my best to make sure nobody is trying to take advantage of the system in place here. I'm open to a review of my block by an uninvolved administrator (given that I just recently messed up on one earlier today). Jeez, already. MuZemike 22:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Not criticizing you here Mike - nothing wrong with the block here. I just happened to notice it - wasn't sure if it would constitute ranting, talkpage abuse or a request for an unblock (if the last, I wouldn't think it has a snowball's - editor very apparently Hasn,tGotIt) Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, wasn't directed at you. MuZemike 00:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

After reviewing this case, it appears that 96.36.28.60 was in fact the victim of false accusations and the block was in fact unjust. It appears that Bridies holds some kind of personal grudge and is looking for any excuse to eliminate someone who has different views than he does. Bridies's definition of incivility seems to be different than the definition I acquired from www.dictionary.com and I see no proof of sock puppetry in this particular case.

If this matter had not already been resolved, I would have proposed a permanent ban on Bridies for obvious trolling. Not trying to step on your toes, MuZemike, but I would recommend a little deeper research on matters instead of being so quick to act upon a 1-sided story. 205.242.88.119 (talk) 13:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I'd appreciate if someone could take a look at the Archduke Christoph Franz of Austria-Este AFD and the edit histories of the nominated articles, Archduke Christoph Franz of Austria-Este. Archduke Fulvio Marco of Austria-Este and Princess Maria Louise of Brunswick-Lüneburg with particular attention to the edits of the IP editor 68.36.205.151 (talk · contribs). I also think that the edits of that IP editor on articles on Hapsburg-related articles, other than those mentioned, would need attention. Putting my head over the parapet here, but the edits are either unsourced or dubiously sourced and (in full realization of what I am saying here) generally dubious.

I have already made my views known on the sources used, in a forthright manner for lack of a better description, and I think that my involvement at the AFD would preclude me from taking any other course of action. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 00:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Upon closer inspection, this is a clear case of hoaxing to build a fake royal genealogy for someone. It's also obvious sockpuppetry. I am creating an SPI report so that any additional sockpuppets are identified and we have proper records in case the user tries it again in the future. Hans Adler 19:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Bali ultimate has cleaned up most of the affected articles. I just found one or two more, but now the hoax should have been removed except for the three main articles that are currently subject to AfD. Hans Adler 22:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Checkuser has confirmed that Chrisco123 is a sockpuppet of Knyphausen56. I don't know why neither account is blocked yet. DoriSmith found out that the related IPs have made suspicious edits related to the topic as early as April 2007. (See AfD or SPI case.) Hans Adler 09:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed community ban for invasive hoaxing

By "invasive" I mean that information at other articles was forged to suit the hoax. See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Knyphausen56 for the details. IMO the user needs to be banned, but I guess blocking him can wait until a checkuser has replied. Hans Adler 20:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support it looks to be a student at a very prestigious american boarding school just embarking on an ambitious hoax project. (unforunately prestigious doesn't equal smart and productive). Let's just nip all this in the bud.

talk

) 23:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support; deliberate hoax or breaching experiment, our volunteers don't need the hassle and shouldn't have to waste their time fixing this nonsense. EyeSerene^talk 23:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support a ban as this limp wristed effort falls waaay below the standard I've come to expect in a Wikipedia hoax. Where are the pictures? Where are the ironic hints? Crafty (talk) 23:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the lack of pictures is aggravating. As to ironic hints, at least Knyphausen was a funny choice of username by this student from near the battle site, and the added 56 (as if Wikipedia already had a user of this name) was a nice touch too. Hans Adler 23:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Anti-Nationalist did not accuse Vecrumba of being an antisemite, and Vecrumba is now blocked for 72 hours. There's no point in continuing this here. Jayjg 01:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

IronAngelAlice has participated in the long, detailed consensus on the Abortion first paragraph. IronAngelAlice has consciously gone against that because Halfdome recklessly altered it. It has been a long time since I've used Rollback on the abortion article, now I've used it twice recently. The user was warned for being a possible sock. I don't know what happened with that. - RoyBoy 01:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I have notified the user of this thread, on their talk page. Basket of Puppies 04:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

My first impression is that you misused rollback. AniMate 04:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't have used rollback, but I would have reverted it. The change IAA is making destroys the accuracy of the sentence as well as the long standing compromise.--Tznkai (talk) 19:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

IronAngelAlice (talk · contribs) is also reverting changes across multiple Abortion related articles, with no edit summary or explanation, or discussion on the talk pages. This is disruptive. Cirt (talk) 04:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand, though I had no doubt on the reversions, so I used rollback after a normal reversion. IAA did not add anything to Talk, despite the edit summary saying otherwise. - RoyBoy 03:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Would appreciate another administrator looking into Pedant17's actions at this particular article - and also this pattern of behavior of slow edit-warring in general, and take action here. Cirt (talk) 05:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Archived RfC

Talk:Outrageous_Betrayal/Archive_1#RfC:_Recent_wording_edits_to_article

At the RfC, Pedant17 continued to comment, seemingly ad infinitum, despite unanimous consensus against him that his changes were not productive and degraded the article's quality.

Prior edits by Pedant17 on the article

Here are prior edits on the same article by Pedant17 that are not supported by the RfC (compare with above edit):

• 08:24, 4 June 2009
• 01:40, 24 April 2009
• 04:07, 12 March 2009

These edits show a pattern of slow edit-warring by Pedant17.

Pattern of behavior

• Bogging down talk page discussion at Talk:Alien (film), [42]
• Mind control. In a previous comment, PelleSmith pointed out that Pedant17's edits degraded the quality of the article under the guise of "style" edits
  .
• PelleSmith agreed that edits by Pedant17 to the article
  List of groups referred to as cults or sects in government documents were not constructive; these "style" edits were of same nature as above. [43], [44]
• Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pedant17

Thank you for your time, Cirt (talk) 05:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Part of the problem seems to be Pedant17's fundamental misunderstanding of

WP:SILENCE, which he appears to interpret as "if a disagreement falls silent, the last editor to have spoken has consensus" - I can see how this confusion might seem like a fair rationale for slow-edit-warring, and an incentive to keep posting disagreements at the end of a thread. The reason he rejected the RfC comments on Outrageous Betrayal was that the editors who'd commented hadn't responded to his rebuttals and "evolving consensus there appears (per WP:SILENCE) to support my case". He also tells another editor that "if you do not respond to my arguments, I assume that they have convinced you"

.

A similar slow-edit war has been going on at

McGeddon (talk

) 12:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem exists -- part from fellow-Wikipedians mistaking the shrill repetition of (often unfounded) claims for measured and logical discussion of the merits of a case. That said, an elaboration of

WP:SILENCE might help clarify matters. -- Pedant17 (talk

) 03:45, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting an article into E-Prime, having it reverted by multiple editors who feel this degrades the quality of the writing, debating it at great length on the talk page until the editors who disagree with you stop responding, and finally copyediting into E-Prime again because "silence denotes content" - this is a problem. You've been doing this on at least three articles - Alien (film), Dell and Outrageous Betrayal - over an extended period, and other editors are finding it disruptive.

The simple first sentence of

McGeddon (talk

) 11:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)