Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive138

Is there any on-wiki discussion here on enwiki about the pending GFDL migration to Creative Commons changes that is being discussed on the Foundation mail list?

not quite 'on-wiki' but I suggested this as a topic for a conversation at

Wikipedia:NotTheWikipediaWeekly - take a look, and join us if you're interested! - cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Have fun. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

MOWAAR DWAAHMAH! Tim Vickers (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the ultimate aim is to try to ensure there's LESS DWAAHMAH! on Wikipedia. --

Folantin (talk) 20:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Technical problem with article "air-raid shelter"

Resolved

I was trying to fix some sources for this article when for some reason several sections, including the "references" disappeared in article although they seem to be in the editing page. Article needs help as I'm unable to fix it. Dieter Simon (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, there was a > missing from a closing ref tag, which made everything after the ref disappear. Fixed now! DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks, DuncanHill, I never noticed this. Great. Dieter Simon (talk) 22:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You would think the software could warn people about this. I mean, if MSExcel can tell you you've missed out a bracket, can't Mediawiki do the same? Carcharoth (talk) 23:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It would be very helpful, and enable editors to be more productive. DuncanHill (talk) 23:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so as promised I have went ahead and started a conversation in regards to rollback as promised a few months ago when the previous conversation was closed. Lets try and keep this drama free, and

I noticed on AfD that there was an article called "List of films portraying sexual attraction to children or adolescents." Then I noticed that there was an article called "List of *books* portaying sexual attraction to children or adolescents." The problem with the titles of these lists is that they are calling child sexual abuse "sexual attraction to children or adolescents." (Look at the lists, they clearly list sexual abuse.) Calling sexual abuse of children "sexual attraction to children" is clearly an extreme fringe definition of child sexual abuse from the pedophile point of view. It appears that there are five of these disturbingly titled lists, and that they used to all be titled "Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in <fill in the blank>." When and why then titles were all changed to reflect an extreme fringe pedophile activist point of view is not clear to me. I am also disturbed that the stated purpose of the Wiki Pedophile Article Watch Project is "Some Wikipedians have formed a project to better organize and ensure veracity and freedom from bias of information in articles involving pedophilia, child sexuality, and related issues," but that no one on this project has noted the extreme POV problem in the renaming/redefining of these articles to an extreme pro-pedophile fringe stance. I also do not understand why "pro-pedophile activism" is included in "Other resources" on the Project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pedophilia_Article_Watch#Other_resources I thought this was not the place for activism.

former titles of lists, currently how they are titled on Pedophilia Article Watch:

Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction (boys) Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction (girls) Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in films Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in songs Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in the theatre

Active link to one of the articles from the project site, so you can see that it goes to "List of songs portraying sexual attraction to children or adolescents":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia_and_child_sexual_abuse_in_songs

Link to Project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pedophilia_Article_Watch

-PetraSchelm (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this is the appropriate place for this or not, but I don't think that the current titles of articles such as

Rose 20:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

These are songs about child sexual abuse. The only point of view from which they are about "Sexual attraction" is the point of view of whomever is "sexually attracted," i.e., pedophiles. The lists define sexual abuse solely from the pov of pedophiles. It's pretty weird and creepy, imho. -PetraSchelm (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, I always find it unusual when a new editor comes here and immediately starts listing articles for deletion. Nothing in particular but just odd. Since there's a ton of articles on AFD at this moment, I really don't see anything that requires admin intervention. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I brought it here when I realized there were *5* of these article, so it probably wasn't a productive idea to AfD the other 4--only one is up for AfD. The problem seems to be no oversight of POV pushing at the pedophile wikiproject; more eyes should be on it. -PetraSchelm (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PetraSchelm seems to be the one POV-pushing and

Note, reverse the order. I was alerted to Petra by her(?) comments on Jimbo's talk page first, then warned her.

^{Son of the Defender} 21:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Petra, make yourself familiar with our polices and then edit contentious material with an eye to

SqueakBox 21:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This is true. they were in bad shape. But note that reason that the work is hard is because it is difficult to maintain NPOV. Simply trying to force changes through by butting heads and shaking things up, doesn't work.

^{Son of the Defender} 21:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Further comment, the article name seem to have been the subject of extensive discussion and consensus building, and the most recent changes were discussed at Talk:List_of_books_portraying_sexual_attraction_to_children_or_adolescents#Requested_move. As another editor noted, the discussion there was "as close to consensus-building as I've seen on Wikipedia", and that sentiment seems accurate to me as well. Jfire (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Pedophilia activism, on my Wikipedia? It's more likely than you think. William Ortiz (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Your Wikipedia? How about the entire community's Wikipedia (pedophiles and all).

^{Son of the Defender} 21:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's a catchphrase popular on the *chan picture boards. He's not really saying that it is his, rather it's meant to be taken with a heavy dose of sarcasm, like a display shock at something totally expected. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment, I have read through the discussion on what appears to be the very recent name change of all 5 articles from "Sexual abuse and pedophila in film/books/song/theater" to "sexual attraction to children in films/books/songs/theater," and all I can say is that the consensus was among a tiny number of participants, and their arguments don't hold up. Hence, more eyes should be on this. If the "consensus' on the UFO article is that UFOs exist, that doesn't make it so. The argument for changing the name seems to be that "sexual attraction" subsumes "pedophilia and child sexual abuse." Uh, only from the perspective of pedophiles. It looks like someone named Will Beback attempted rationality:

"If the concern is that people looking for books portraying those topics will have trouble finding the list(s), surely links to the "sexual attraction to children" list(s) from Wikipedia articles on pedophilia and on child sexual abuse would do the job. As Haiduc points out, those specifics are subsumed under the more general "sexual attraction to children". SocJan (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC) In my opinion, sexual attraction and sexual abuse are two different things. Some of these books are written from the adult's side and focus on the sexual attraction/pedophilia, while others are written from the child's point of view and may focus on the sexual abuse/molestation. The title should reflect both aspects. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC) Leaving aside the fact that this does not address the problem with integrating depictions of adolescent experience, where does this leave works in the style of "For a Lost Soldier," which depicts the youth's point of view as experiencing the sexuality as positive (whatever you or I, or even the author, may think of it now), and as reciprocating the man's affection? At best, this would impose a reading avant la lettre on works where it would be inappropriate. Haiduc (talk) 10:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC) I'm not familiar with that book, but if it depicts an adult's sexual attraction to a boy then I'd think that it could be described as involving pedophilia, regardless of the boy's feelings. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC) Not if the boy is above thirteen. The problem is that you are inadvertently excluding a whole range of adult/minor relationships, a range that is often legitimate in the eyes of the law, and that does not fit either the pedophilia or the abuse paradigms. Haiduc (talk) 18:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)"

-PetraSchelm (talk) 21:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the appropriate forum, Petra. Take it to Talk:List of books portraying sexual attraction to children or adolescents.

Also, thinly-veiled accusations of paedophilia against other Wikipedians ("only from the perspective of pedophiles") are not acceptable,

policy- or logic-wise. You've already been warned about this. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 21:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's better to attract more eyes to this project, and hence this is the forum. Also, sexual attraction to children=perspective of pedophiles. Or is there another group of people besides pedophiles who are sexually attracted to children? The POV problem in the renaming of these articles, that Will Beback also pointed out, is that it is not "sexual attraction" from the pov of anyone *but* pedophiles. From the pov of children who are abused, and from the pov of mainstream society, sexually abusing children is sexual abuse, not sexual attraction to children. All these list clearly describe the sexual abuse of children. -PetraSchelm (talk) 21:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If your aim is to attract more eyes to a given issue (in order, one supposes, to ensure that actions taken on insular pages are consistent with the will of the community), you would do better to raise that issue at

requests for comment; this noticeboard is, as the header observes, "not the place to raise disputes over content", and exists principally to alert administrators to issues that might require their intervention as administrators (as against as "regular" users, in, for instances, disputes over content and policy like that which you outline) and to permit the coordination of administrator activities. Joe (I can has barnstar?) 22:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Will has been tireless in his own attempts to ensure that we have neutrality and quality on the pedophile articles. Thanks,

SqueakBox 21:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I just found this thread. Thanks, SqueakBox, for your comment but it's not true. I'm tired of dealing with dealing with this stuff. Recently, SqueakBox has been far more active than me in dealing with this stuff but even as "tireless" as he's been I bet he's getting tired too. This is an uncomfortable topic that few editors or even admins want to touch. I was recruited long ago by

WP:PAW

project to their watchlist or watchlisting some relevant articles. Without going into details, it's a probable fact that there are people who are trying actively to push a POV onto WP articles. The best way to handle it is with more eyeballs. Please lend yours.

PS: This PetraSchelm character seems odd and I suspect a troll. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the articles, they do appear to concern mainly sexual abuse. The articles seems to rest on the premise that sexual abuse of children is but one aspect of a more complete spectrum of behavior. Not only is this premise itself a contested point of view, but it doesn't appear to really reflect the content of the article or the reason the topic is significant. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So I'm confused. PetraSchelm claims that mainstream society doesn't view pedophilia as sexual attraction to children. If so, then what is it? No, mainstream society does view pedophilia as sexual attraction to children, but it views actually performing sexual acts with a child as "wrong".--

Rose 00:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Certainly in the UK a pedophile is synonymous with a sex offender who commits child sexual abuse either directly or through viewing child porn, as well as the more traditional "attracted to children" definition. Really this is an issue for the pedophilia articles rather than the admin noticeboard. Thanks,

SqueakBox 00:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• Folks, please review and watchlist List of songs portraying sexual attraction to children or adolescents (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I just removed all those entries which were not sourced to credible independent secondary sources (i.e. removed unsourced, sourced from personal observation of the lyrics, blogs, web forums, freewebs and the like). It is now standing at one entry: Don't Stand So Close to Me by The Police, which is unquestionably a song portraying sexual attraction to children or adolescents as is well established form credible sources within the article. I am confident this set of edits will be reverted, because poeple want to keep the list and the list only has one entry after the removal of unsourced or inadequately sourced entries. Guy (Help!) 10:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, except technically couldn't it be perfectly acceptable to source from the lyrics using the song as a primary source? By personal observation do you mean contentious interpretation? 86.44.26.69 (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

No, because it requires a value judgment: is lyric X about subject Y? Where the subject is contentious, solid sourcing is absolutely necessary. Guy (Help!) 12:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Plus, of course, there is the small issue that that particular song specifically namechecks

WP:POINT, if you prefer) to illustrate precisely why the subject of paedophilia needs to be handled so carefully, much of what is written in the popular media regarding, and supposed examples of, paedophile attraction is not - it is something else which is equally impermissable upon being acted upon, but does not equate to the encyclopedic definition of paedophilia. Hence it is imperative that accusations are not bandied around, and those experienced Wikipedians who have taken on the editing of this thorny subject be allowed to calmly and objectively do their work. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

He has protected the page

Mikkalai abused his powers in previously protecting the page. Refer to the Wikipedia protection policy at Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Move_protection:

"administrators should avoid favoring one name over another, and protection should not be considered an endorsement of the current name."

However Mikkalai has stated on the talk page that: "This is the official name of the city, according to the evidence presented. Period" in order to justify his actions.

There was previously a proposal to move the page, however it ended with no consensus. This definitely doesn't favour either name. He is now going around threatening to block people who change it back to Tighina.

I believe that if he wants to move the page, despite the recent "no consensus" verdict on the move proposal, he should start a proper debate on the talk page rather than act in a way such as that of a dictator with the moral high ground. Rapido (talk) 10:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• I live for the day that we get a comment about Mikka from someone who was not engaged in edit-warring to promote a particular POV. Let me go and see if the day has arrived... Nope. Copy-paste moves are Bad, ethnic disputes are not best solved by edit warring. Guy (Help!) 12:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, if by POV you mean only mainspace-related issues, and not philosophical differences regarding RfA, here's at least one: Mikka can be unfriendly as hell and frequently displays behaviour fully and utterly incompatible with a position of trust in this project. However, I agree that the issue at hand happens to be purely content-related.
    harass) 15:48, April 8
    , 2008
  • Make that two, I can't disagree with anything Dorftrottel just said.
    _(1 == 2)^Until 18:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Discuss it on the talkpage and come to a consensus on the name according to the best sources available. Moving it back and forth is counter-productive. While I don't necessarily think the protection was good, I'd be in favor of leaving it in place to prevent a move-war from going on. ^
  ^{[omg plz]} 14:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I can tell, Mikkalai was asked about the protection, then removed it. Mikkalai then requested protection via

RFPP which I granted, as there was an active dispute about the pages title. It is currently protected for about 19 more days. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

With two threads in a row claiming it, "Abuse of Power" is becoming the new "Wikistalking"--do we maybe need to invoke

Gladys J Cortez 17:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 18:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Admin abusing power = admin doing exactly what they should do, except they did it to me... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems like all the admins are having a good laugh about what other admins do, no matter whether it's right or wrong, and despite whether it might be disruptive to Wikipedia. It also seems to me that administrators are considered more important that other editors, which surely should not be the case. I don't consider anything has been resolved here. Rapido (talk) 08:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

More like "foot-stamping", "because I said so", or, maybe, "vague-handwaving-attempts-at-bullying".

I've made it my business to tag for speedy deletion spam disguised as user pages (such as

Well, Ryan Postlethwaite (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and a few others have apparently gotten a bug up their butts by the fact that I tag indef-blocked, about-to-be-indef-blocked, or obvious spammer user talk pages with {{temporary userpage}} and Ryan Postlethwaite has ordered me to stop. When asked why, he simply says (to paraphrase) "because I said" and (directly) "This is disruptive because these talk pages shouldn't be deleted". Many admins have deleted such pages in the past as being, well, "inactive and containing no versions requiring archiving", as the tag itself says. When asked to expain why I should stop doing something supported by actual practice and is just good housekeeping generally, he falls back on demands that I "stop wikilawyering" without giving me the slightest reason why I should, why I'm doing anything wrong, or why he's not pestering the admins who perform the actual deletions. The closest he's come is the question begging assertion that "[t]his is disruptive because these talk pages shouldn't be deleted."

Perhaps a word with him (and others, perhaps) to actually do more than wave his hands and issue threats would be helpful here. Such as 1) why it's important to save these pages; 2) why it's disruptive to tag them; 3) why he feels the need to throw his weight around regarding something this ridiculous. --Calton | Talk 15:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've let Ryan Postlethwaite know about this report, so I imagine he'll stop by to explain what's so urgent about keeping those talk pages. I can't see any convincing reason for keeping them myself. Stifle (talk) 15:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this the same as, or at least very similar to, another discussion on this board a few days ago? Were any conclusions drawn from that thread? _{The public face of GB}^T/C 15:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No, not at least what I can recall. Rudget (review) 16:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

My problem with Caltons tagging is that there is nothing to say that we should delete user talk pages for users that have been warned once or twice about creating non notable pages. Many of the users that Calton has tagged aren't even going to be blocked - he's tagging talk pages that aren't his, aren't of blocked users to be deleted for no reason whatsoever. There is no harm at all keeping talk pages of users who have one warning to their name and who have the possibility of contributing constructively in the future. {{temporary userpage}} isn't the most friendly template we have, it's bitey and suggests to our new users that they aren't even allowed their own talk page. We should educate new users, not warn them and have their talk pages deleted. The reason why I decided to throw my weight around is because 5 users have now asked Calton to stop this, but he refuses every single time. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad somebody else has asked Calton to stop, because I was preparing to do so myself. There is absolutely no reason to be tagging these pages into

CAT:TEMP are usually only pages of indefinitely blocked users, where there is no benefit of keeping them. I've seen Calton say that he's just tagging the pages, and if they shouldn't be deleted then it is the problem of the deleting admin. That is unacceptable. Wasting time to fix the incorrect tagging is not necessary. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Wait until after an indefinite block before placing this category, which is part of the indefblocked template anyway. I'd even suggest nominating the "temporary userpage" template for deletion. What else is it used for? User nominating their own pages for deletion can use db-author or similar tags. And even when this category has been placed, circumstances may change. It seems Calton is being impatient and jumping the gun. He should calm down and wait for blocks to be placed before completing paperwork like this. Carcharoth (talk) 16:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I don't know of any instances that the tag is actually used (appropriately). Indefinitely blocked users are placed in the category, like you say, with various templates including {{indefblocked}} . - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Look closer. Indefinitely blocked users are placed in the category only if the blocking admin actually adds the notice, which they sometimes don't. See Anglo American Autos (talk · contribs), Jtplasticproducts (talk · contribs), and Ravensbruck films (talk · contribs), to pick three very recent examples. So unless I keep track of which ones AREN'T given the notice, pages with the spammy names remain in perpetuity. This is not "jumping the gun", it's back-up for the about-to-be-indefed and reality for the one-shot spammers. --Calton | Talk 12:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

And if Calton must tag such pages, he should design a more specific tag. eg. This user is a spammer. Or something. But phrased more politely. And better designed. Carcharoth (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad someone finally mustered up the time to leave Calton a message, his taggings have long been an annoyance when going through CAT:CSD. Calton, surely you can find something more constructive to do than tag userpages for deletion? John Reaves 16:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Way to go Ryan! There is no need to assume bad faith and tag other users pages as such. Pages should only be tagged if they are indef blocked. And yeah, the conversation in regards to this a few days ago was heading that direction as well, but no clear consensus. Tiptoety ^talk 17:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You mean the user talk pages, no? I definitely saw correct user pages tags for spam G11.--

Tikiwont (talk) 18:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No we are not talking about taging pages for deletion, but placing {{temporary userpage}} on them. Anyways Calton could spend the time he takes tagging the page to try and help the new confused user. Tiptoety ^talk 18:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah; I've seen those as well... So let me just add, that his userpage taggings for blatant spam are something useful, which he may want to consider when deciding where to spend his time.--

Tikiwont (talk) 18:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I terms of useful things you could do for the encyclopedia, that's pretty low on the list. It seems to be some sort of personal mission he has. John Reaves 18:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

My view is that his taggings of userpages for blatant spam coupled with reporting the usernames at

Bencherlite^Talk 18:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Calton tagged

WP:AGF can go a long way. Tiptoety ^talk 18:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and Huzzah! to Ryan for forcing this issue with Calton.--

talk • contribs) 02:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding {{temporary userpage}} is more than unnecessary, it's very harmful.

I'd say that begging the question is downright harmful when it comes to honest debate, don't you?

Yeah, Calton tagged this users talk page...

You mean for the role account for a public relations firm, whose only contributions were to add a section to an article promoting one of his clients -- even adding his own name?

Role accounts get blocked

: this isn't even a slightly difficult concept.

As for Bencherlite's comments, thanks. The reason they come in clusters is that I only really have time to check in once or twice a day, so I look at what "New pages" throws up, and lo, plenty of material to work with. As for his specific points

(a) The username-softblock notice contains the same category, so the earlier tag is unnecessary - Only if the blocking admin actually adds the notice, which they sometimes don't. See Anglo American Autos (talk · contribs), Jtplasticproducts (talk · contribs), and Ravensbruck films (talk · contribs), to pick three very recent examples. So unless I keep track of which ones AREN'T given the notice, pages with the spammy names remain in perpetuity.

(Speaking of unnecessary, I've noticed that

Who's claiming that {{temporary userpage}} =/= "speedy deletion"? It's not what it says on the tag itself -- it says after some vaguely defined "reasonable period of time". Without the tag, that "period of time" = "never", so between "never" and "reasonable period of time", I opt for "reasonable period of time".

(c) slapping the category on the talk page of a newbie editor who (AGF) doesn't know our stance on spam userpages is a tad harsh for my particular tastes.

I'd say it bears no relation to their activities, nor is it message to them: it's housekeeping. --Calton | Talk 05:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just blank the page. It won't have the spam (and if it's on a user page it shouldn't be crawled anyway) and most people won't fight about it. Besides, I would rather the edit available if I see that the user is spamming everywhere so I can block him for much longer time (rather than having to look through their deleted edits). Who cares if the history remains? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. A little education: a blank page still exists as a page, a deleted one doesn't; existing pages get picked up by Google, non-existent ones don't. Your logic, frankly, could apply to any and all pages of oft-created spam, and yet, surprisingly, someone came up with the universally used "protected titles" solution instead. If "blanking the page" was sufficient, why was "protected titles" necessary? --Calton | Talk 12:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

To follow up on one of Calton's points, if the blocking admin fails to add the notice, then surely two things should happen - (i) it should be brought to the blocking admin's attention and (ii) someone should add the notice. As far as I can see, neither uw-ublock or uw-uhblock need to be added by an admin, as there is nothing in their wording to imply that they have been added by an admin. If, however, the notice isn't added then we end up with the clearly unacceptable position where we have a user who is blocked (potentially only soft blocked) without knowing why they've been blocked, not being given the notice that tells them how to go about getting unblocked and changing their username, and then (if the {{temporary userpage}} tag is placed on the page) having their talk page deleted a while later.

Despite having had my fair share of run-ins with Calton in the past, I find myself taking a fair bit of issue with some of the comments above. Calton's work tagging spam userpages for deletion is valuable - anything which keeps the encyclopaedia spam-free is a valuable contribution to the project overall, in my view, and I don't agree with those who see it as being less valuable than any other housekeeping task. And although we've disagreed in the past over articles in the mainspace he has tagged for

CAT:CSD

, I don't think I've ever had reason to decline speedy deletion of a userpage which he has tagged as being spam.

If you doubt the accuracy of his taggings, I suggest a quick look back through his contributions. The sheer quantity of those userpage links in his edit summaries which are now red are testimony to the accuracy of his tagging. The few that are blue have either been recreated by the users concerned, or were merely blanked by him rather than tagged for speedy. Display the most recent 500 - there are dozens, if not hundreds of properly deleted spam pages. It is an unarguable fact that there is a constant stream of new editors who ignore the warnings about creating spam pages and go ahead and create them anyway. His reasons for taking on the tagging of those pages as a personal tas are irrelevant - the fact remains that he is one of the few people does, and I think he deserves credit for the thoroughness and accuracy with which he attends to his chosen task.

Despite what Ricky says above, user pages and user talk pages both turn up on Google searches - search for "Wikipedia Gb sockpuppetry" and my userpage will be the first result, and my user talk page the second. I have no reason to think that a spam userpage created by a spamming-SPA would also not turn up, but as Calton's work seems to ensure they get deleted pretty quickly, I can't actually find an example of it to cite here.

I also second Bencherlite's comments about his reports to

WP:UAA

- I can't think of a single instance where I have not soft- or hard-blocked a report he has made there.

As for whether he should be adding {{

WP:UAA

, and that they will in all likelihood be blocked, I would prefer that he didn't, and that instead he kept an eye on the usertalk page to double check that the uw-ublock template has been added by the blocking admin, and add it if it hasn't been. A little more work, perhaps, but it avoids the unacceptable situation I started off this (now exceedingly long) comment with.

The question is probably more relevant, therefore, only where he comes across as user whose contribtuions are spam, but whose name isn't. Personally I'd treat them much like a user whose contribution was nonsense - warn, then maybe monitor their contributions to see which direction they go in. Judging from the above there are views on both sides of the above - whilst the last of these discussions didn't reach a resolution, I'd hope that this one could so that we can all get on with what it was we were doing in the first place. _{The public face of GB}^T/C 12:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been going through the past couple weeks of Calton's {{

talk • contribs) 14:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated Template:Temporary userpage for deletion (please see Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 April 10#Template:Temporary userpage) - all comments welcome. Ryan Postlethwaite 15:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Good size backlog, has been there for a while now. Could use some help please. Tiptoety ^talk 23:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks pretty much cleared up now, only a few left hanging around. Thanks for all the help guys! Tiptoety ^talk 23:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

For the future, generally putting pages into Category:Administrative backlog will catch more admins. Stifle (talk) 09:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Category tracker <--- HERE.

Since the old one hasn't updated in months and STILL appears on several admins' pages, I hacked up a new one using the magicness of magic words. A few comments:

• This uses expensive parser functions. Don't put this on pages that have lots of these.
• There are some nonsensical values. Some explanations in order of decreasing likeliness:
  1. A type of cleanup that lacks a category like Category:All pages needing cleanup (an example would be articles to be merged). You'll need to create one, edit the (protected) template and then update the tracker. GOTO 2.
  2. Database lag. Purge the cache and/or wait for the job queue to go away.
  3. Persistent database lag. This would need a null edit to fix, but you don't want to pad your edit count in this way (it's boring).
  4. A MediaWiki bug. Report it here.
• There are no statistics on the numbers such as mean, range and
  z-score
  . They will have to be manually done, so no funky colors (my understanding of wiki markup doesn't go that far, but it's possible. See first comment).
• Updates in "real time", but see #2 above.
• I'm too lazy to write any formal documentation, categorize or do other pretty things.

I just copied and pasted the list of categories on the old category tracker, minus a few. If there are others that are worthy of inclusion, just add them. MER-C 07:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Nice. I'll need to figure out why it's giving -3 members in some categories, but seems very cool. Stifle (talk) 09:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Bug reported. MER-C 13:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Reports keep piling on, could an admin "take care" of them. Vivio Testarossa^{Talk Who} 13:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved for now. Thanks. – Luna Santin (talk) 17:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I put a month-long block on the following IP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/72.186.213.96 Looks to me like a clear-cut case of evasion of a ban by User:Licorne. See User talk:Licorne for more information on this persistent anti-Semite, who was banned indefinitely a few years back. The above IP, along with being in a known IP range of the user, has the same obsessions (obsessed with homosexuality, with Catholicism, with "Jews", using all caps when confronted, and, most of all, with the idea that Albert Einstein plagiarized the work of Henri Poincaré and others). I thought I ought to report it in here, since it has been awhile. I have no doubt myself that this is the same person, the likelihood that a similar IP would be editing Wikipedia in all the trademark ways of this past abuser seems nil. --Fastfission (talk) 14:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Anyone interested in revising/updating/confirming the NAC guidelines?, Let me know, I'd like to participate. The broad issue has nothing to do with SM or Stifle. closing the thread. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 15:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Today I noticed that

Indeed, if this means that

WP:DPR needs to be revised, let's agree that it should be and do so. Stifle (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Should be and are, are two different things here. :)

talk) 15:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

When I was a non-admin, I did a similar thing: best to bring to some form of a review elsewhere. Rudget (review) 15:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to close AfDs as a non admin fine, but if an admin re-opens them just accept that, or go to DRV. That being said an admin should not reverse a close unless they are concerned it was done incorrectly, or that the decision was not clear cut enough for a non-admin closure.

_(1 == 2)^Until 15:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>Synergetic Maggot asked me to look at these AfDs and his closures on my talkpage. After looking at both AfDs, I agree, that according to our current guidelines and essays and established practices, that these two AfDs should have been left to an admin to close. Stifle did the correct thing in reopening the debates, neither of which was a clear, noncontentious, obvious keep. SM has made numerous NACs, the vast majority of them are solid and noncontroversial keeps. These two are exceptions to what, in my experience, are generally very good closures. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 15:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I second Keeper's thoughts. SynergeticMaggot should have left them for an admin. GlassCobra 15:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Hold on there. This isn't resolved just yet. I went ahead and looked, under

Which one was snow? Neither were snow, SM. I closed this thread for your benefit. (meaning, it should go away, giving you the benefit of the doubt...)Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 16:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of letting this particular thread die, I'll leave this to other talk pages.

talk) 16:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither of those were snow closures. I suggest you only close AfDs that are more clear cut in the future.

_(1 == 2)^Until 16:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is resolved here. It's ongoing on keepers talk page. And thank you for the suggestion. Regards.

talk) 16:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I'd frankly trust SM as much as any admin.. I'm amazed (s)he wasn't already an admin! <ducks> --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC) no, I don't nom people for RFA anymore. I don't think decent people should be wasted on mere admin work O:-) I wonder how much interesting trouble THAT statement is going to get me into.'<ducks some more>'

More serious point: People will always get attacked for closing *FD, it's thankless work that typically is pretty much wikisuicidal (*FD admins should not leave themselves open to recall, among other things). It's amazing that SynergisticMaggot got overturned only twice... and then it turns out the decisions weren't even that bad! heh. Crazy. I figure it's just people forum shopping then, and finding that SM had this single weak-spot of not having the flag. Hmph.

I think people like SynergisticMaggot probably should be given whatever space they need to close AFDs if they really want to. That silly admin flag is just for tools. Determining consensus should be done by wise people. An admin only needs to know if their actions might damage the wiki (like deleting the main page, anyone? O:-) ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

All socks ironed and blocked. _GB^T/C 13:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)