Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive345

So... this has gone on for months now... so maybe this is pointless. There have been a number of complaints filed and 24-hours blocks enforced, but

I looked at the diffs you posted, and the article history. Alice isn't the problem. You are. Mr Which??? 04:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a really intelligent thing to say. Really, based on that comment, I truly value your input.

Jose João (talk

) 04:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't give a damn whether you "value" my input or not. You're the problem in the disupute. From the diffs you posted, and the history of the article you posted, Alice isn't a problem. Period. Mr Which??? 04:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Please try and maintain basic civility ([[WP:CIVIL).

Jose João (talk

) 04:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I have done so. Writing "damn" doesn't make a post uncivil. Mr Which??? 04:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does. Bstone (talk) 04:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Or are you saying that every time someone swears in a post, it's uncivil? That seems a ludicrous proposition on the face of it. Mr Which??? 04:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Good natured vulgarity can be appropriate, but you have been rude and uncivil. I ask you to please stop. Bstone (talk) 05:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

"Good natured vulgarity"?!? AN/I is truly turning into a theater of the absurd. I have been neither rude nor uncivil in this discussion, and I'll thank you to stop accusing me of such. Ask around. Find out how many other people thinking using the word "damn" in anger makes one's post "rude and uncivil." Mr Which??? 15:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

We will agree to disagree. Have a good day. Bstone (talk) 15:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Based upon what you've posted here, it appears that no such stalking has taken place. Not only that, but it appears that your charges that Alice does not contribute to Wikipedia are baseless. Finally, it appears, based on what you've pointed to here, that she encouraged another user who you are in conflict with to utilize the standard procedure established for conflict resolution. Did I miss something that you are inferring here? --Mhking (talk) 04:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• For the record, he's now dropping 3RR warnings on my page for restoring the sourced material he deleted en masse (and without discussion at talk) at the article in question. Mr Which??? 04:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

If you do not understand what is under dispute, then do not try to mediate.

Jose João (talk

) 04:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No 3RR has occurred yet. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Right. You leave 3RR warnings before any violation. When there's a violation you report it to the 3RR noticeboard. A warning prior to a report is required as proof the user was aware of the rule.

Jose João (talk

) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Right. Are you aware of the rule? Because you're now on the edge of it, and violating

WP:OWN all over the place, as well as making frivolous complaints to AN/I. Mr Which???

04:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

MrWhich, I noticed you removed the valid warning from your talkpage, incorrectly stating it was invalid. Just so you know, if you try and revert again, I post the diff of the warning, not a link to your talkpage, on the noticeboard. Please abide by {inuse}-politeness. Thanks,

Jose João (talk

) 04:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Users are allowed to remove warnings from their talk pages, per

WP:TALK. There is no incivility, except for what is being brought upon by editors who are being overly hostile in the pursuit of this. Seicer (talk) (contribs

) 04:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• I also don't care what you "noticed", Perspicacite (Jose Joao). The "warning" was improper, as it was placed by someone on the verge of 3RR themselves, and who is far more invested in the article. I'm not going to get blocked protecting this article from your mass removal of sourced content. Mr Which??? 04:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• (ecx2) And he's now using the {{in use}} template to prevent anyone from interfering with his mass deletion of sourced material. Mr Which??? 04:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, actually, I am using the inuse template to source the material - much the same way I did with

Jose João (talk

) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No. A user is allowed to do that, per

WP:USERPAGE. Can we stop making mountains out of mole hills? Seicer (talk) (contribs

) 04:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Noted. Fair enough. --Mhking (talk) 04:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it seems as if some users are wanting to make mountains out of mole hills -- on both sides of the argument. Currently, Kingdom of Kongo has an inuse template, so it is fair to assume that massive changes will occur on the affected page. Given that not all changes are complete yet, let's not rush to conclusions that sources may be curtailed or outright removed.

It would have been nice to have discussion before the massive editing would have occurred, but I see no major reason to revert all the changes at the moment. Let's see the finished result and base a discussion at the talk page based on that -- use

There is also no appearant stalking by Alice (talk · contribs). She posted some useful guidelines and policies that need to be aided by.

Let's keep a cool head here guys. No incivility has yet been performed outside of the word "damn," which is not showing incivility -- given that Wikipedia is not censored for language, and that the word "damn" was not in reference to one particular user. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Now Jose Joao has unilaterally deleted Alice's post to the talk page. I will be re-adding it as a vandalism reversion if he continues. Mr Which??? 06:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Have fun with that. Oh, and 3RR applies to talkpages too, just so you know.

Jose João (talk

) 06:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• If you continue to disrupt the talkpage (and removing appropriate comments constitutes disruption), I'm certain you will earn a well-deserved block for that disruption. Mr Which??? 06:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

MrWhich, you may want to recuse yourself from further discussion here. The above comment is entirely uncivil. Thank you. Bstone (talk) 01:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Telling someone they could be blocked if they continue to disrupt is uncivil? Care to expand? Mr Which??? 01:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Warning or informing someone that certain behavior is blockable is fine. Saying it is "you will earn a well-deserved block" is hardly civil. Please do take care for this. Bstone (talk) 01:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• Nope, sorry. You have a right to hold that opinion, but it's simply not true. If he continues to disrupt, his block will be "well-deserved", it's as simple as that. Mr Which??? 01:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

We will have to agree to disagree. Have a good evening. Bstone (talk) 01:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

(untab) Might I suggest, as someone who is completely new to this incident, that both Mr Which and Jose João step away from their keyboards and calm down a little? Mr Which: I don't think you're being uncivil (I dislike the use of the word 'damn' greatly, and as far as I'm concerned it is uncivil, but unfortuntaly as far as general concencus is concerned it definitely isn't), but you are being abbrasive. I'd suggest cooling down a little. Equally, Jose João, I haven't looked at any histories etc., but judging from others comments, it would appear that you are in the wrong. Before retaliating again, I would suggest that you too take a step back and calm down. Perhaps if both parties did this, mole hills would stop being mistaken for mountains... _TheIslander 01:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I see

This whole dispute is a despicable mess. I don't really know what Phil Sandifer is trying to accomplish by blocking Giano; the page is already protected. If Giano is not unblocked soon, then I will do it myself. Sean William @ 05:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The page is not protected.

t

05:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so it has since expired. Then, since Giano has stopped, what's the issue? Sean William @ 05:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• I have to interject here. I unprotected the page. It didn't expire. The protection was without basis, as it was meant not to protect a page from vandalism, but only to allow admins to edit it but not Giano. That was obviously an attempt at winning a content dispute with the use of the buttons, and that's flat out wrong. In fact, the fact that the author of the page, who is also a primarily invested person in the subject of the page, issued the protection should never have stood even a second's analysis in the first place. Don't we worry about conflict of interest anymore? I've been accused of WP:OWN for wanting a picture to stay, but I never used protection to get my way. Geogre (talk) 06:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur. I'm not sure why Giano has been singled out, there seems to be bad behavior there by a number of parties. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 05:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Again for the same 3RR violation? This isn't helpful. I support an unblock. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Not for the same 3RR violation, but for violating 3RR again on the same article. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

EVERYONE really ought to undertake not to edit war over this, but if we start handing out blocks for revert warring here, the list ought to be a bit longer, there is a lot of tag team reverting going on on both "sides". So singling out Giano doesn't seem right. Still, I'd prefer if he undertook not to revert war. (regardless of who else is doing it) That was my offer. If someone else chooses to unblock him without that undertaking that's their affair and I won't oppose but it wasn't my offer. ++Lar: t/c 05:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I forgot, Giano's probably in bed sleeping off his holiday feast, he hasn't edited for a few hours. So an undertaking not to revert war may be some time in coming if he were willing. ++Lar: t/c 05:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, if it were another person I'd be happy about Lar's proposal, since a block serves no purpose when it is preventing no harm. However, this particular person has made it more abundantly clear than any other non-banned user in memory that no amount of agreements to stop disruption should be trusted. I would agree that Giano has had legitimate grievances, but his only response ever seems to be to magnify disruption and drama with the exactly wrong ways of going about disagreeing with others. I have less than zero confidence that he is interested in actually pursuing polite dispute resolution about the actual issue here, and reinforcing his immunity from community norms with Yet Another unblock. Has no one yet realized that if a user has been unblocked 10 times in expectation of good behavior only to be blocked again that we should no longer expect good behavior?

t

05:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive. If there is edit warring on the page, protect the page (again... it was protected for a while, I assume it expired?), don't block one (and only one) party to the edit warring when there are multiple parties warring. If the edit warring doesn't stop, then seek additional remedies. Blocking Giano for 72 hours accomplishes what? Increases drama and that's about it. An arbcom case has been initiated, that would be the place to deal with long term issues. I do not agree that Giano's only response to issues is to magnify disruption and drama, I don't quite think that's a fair characterization. I do deplore his approach when the red cape is waved under his nose, to be sure, but this block of one (and only one) warring party solves nothing. That the community has figured out how to get his goat by now is an indictment of what exactly ??? ++Lar: t/c 05:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, chronically unblocking on no reasonable presumption of good behavior is what has been causing the drama. And starting this thread is just more of the same. "Punitive" doesn't mean "severe" and "preventative" doesn't mean "short." I'll tell you what the block prevents: more disruption from this user who has been involved in nothing but it for several days straight. You're missing the whole point of protection and unblocks on condition of good behavior. If someone has demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to reform after such dispensations, then you are only enabling the disruption by indulging them with page protections and early unblocks. None of this has any bearing on whomever he was edit warring with. By all means warn and/or block them as the situation calls for, but don't bring up a red herring.

t

05:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There are several other people, who I won't name to avoid drama, who also have chronic unblocks but have (through being an invested user) continued with the borderline behaviour. If this is a reason for a long block or ban on Giano, then those other editors should face the same summary justice. It works both ways. Carcharoth (talk) 11:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

He was blocked for 3RR, unblocked, and the page was protected, so there really wasn't any justification for reblocking him. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Giano should be unblocked so he can at least address an arbcom case that has been filed naming him.--MONGO (talk) 05:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• 1st revert: 20:55, 25 December 2007 "Arbcom has no control"
• 2nd revert: 20:59, 25 December 2007"RV not a beleif that happens to be the truth! - now stop edit warring"
• 3rd revert: 21:01, 25 December 2007"Rv back to the truth"
• 4th revert: 21:03, 25 December 2007 "rv edit warrior who seems to have an aversion to the truth'

Seems like obvious disruption per

WP:POINT.--Hu12 (talk

) 05:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

And the team of folks that was doing the reverting on the other side of the issue? Them, too? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 05:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

You make lots of sense, Videmus. That could be a problem when dealing with those who want to see Giano taken out. Mr Which??? 05:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Giano has been offline for almost five hours. In the past hour, John254 has initiated an Arbcom case on this issue, and Phil Sandifer blocked Giano for 72 hours. This does not give the impression of positive interaction to resolve an issue. Risker (talk) 05:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Whenever someone brandishes their certitude of having "the truth" things rarely end well. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

My gut instinct says that anyone convinced that edit-warring over this sort of "content" is a good use of their volunteer hours ought to be

trout-smacked, if not blocked. Same goes for anyone who hits 5RR with an edit summary reading: "Rv to truth; Now stop edit-warring!". But that's just my gut instinct. MastCell ^Talk

05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Because it was already dealt with. You know, hours ago, when Giano was still online and available? He was blocked, then unblocked, and resolution was reached. Sheesh, it'd be really cool if you had bothered to do some research before dropping a block for activities on such a disputed page. Mr Which??? 05:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • My fault. He had been threatened with a block by Ryulong (another involved admin). Much discussion ensued (you know, in the thread right above yours on Giano's page), and resolution was reached, as East points out. Mr Which??? 05:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    • MrWhich: regardless of how upset you might be, I think the level of sarcasm you're using here is not likely to produce good results. Just my view, take it as you like. ++Lar: t/c 05:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I fail to see anything looking like a backing down or calming on the part of Giano - in fact, I see a comment to the effect of "I would rather be banned than stop." I am also somewhat perplexed by the notion that a deliberate and egregious 3RR violation is something one threatens blocks with. Giano knew full well that he was crossing an electric fence line. Threatening a block was pure theatrics. This is a simple matter - if you egregiously and deliberately violate 3RR, you get blocked.
      talk
      ) 05:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, my block was for the six reverts on December 25th. I see no blocks in his log after the 23rd other than mine, and so it does not seem accurate to say that he has been blocked for the same violation twice, unless we have recently amended our blocking policy such that once you are blocked for something you can then violate that policy to your heart's content.

Would it have perhaps been better to leave this to an uninvolved administrator, since you're apparently an operator in the IRC channel under discussion? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 05:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I had already squashed that by protecting the page; Giano did not touch it after its expiration. Blocking him again just pours gasoline on the fire. east.718 at 05:27, December 26, 2007

My understanding is that deliberate and knowing 3RR violations are blockable more or less straightforwardly. The fact that the page was protected to stop the edit war does not seem to me to remove the validity of a 3RR block - if it did, we would ultimately not have a 3RR blocking system given the routineness of protecting pages during edit wars.

talk

) 05:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Phil: It might be a good approach then to block everyone that was edit warring? You've singled out one person. Or perhaps to bring the concern here and seek consensus for the block? Or ask an uninvolved admin (not me, by the way, I think I'm involved enough) to carry it out? ++Lar: t/c 05:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Were there other 3RR violations?

talk

) 05:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The 3RR is not a weapon. It is also not a legitimate excuse to block a single person when everyone is revert-warring. Protection is optimal in a situation such as this. Sean William @ 05:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• The "bottom line" is that if blocks were going to be handed out for that messy edit war, the list should have been MUCH longer than one. Mr Which??? 05:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, there were technically not other 3RR violations, and no, Giano is not exempt, but 3RR is a bright line, not an entitlement. Unless the others revert warring during the same time period were also blocked, (there were more folks on the "other side", go look at the edit history and you'll see) you're singling out one editor and that's not really fair. Guess what, WP isn't fair and that's generally a good thing... but if you want this block to stick, you need to show equanamity in my view. ++Lar: t/c 05:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The admin who dealt with the edit warring decided to protect, rather than block, so as not to have to block multiple people presumably. It might have been wiser to leave things that way. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not see anybody else who deliberately and flagrantly violated policy in the way Giano did. Frankly, Giano's edits were so transparently disruptive that I have trouble treating their reversion as substantively different from reverting vandalism, but that is neither here nor there - in my judgment, Giano made a flagrant and extreme violation of a policy that is explicitly a blockable offense, making his block straightforward. If there are other straightforward blocks, I will make them. Otherwise, please feel free to block for what you see fit - I deliberately limited my actions to the conservative one, which was blocking a clear and deliberate 3RR violation.

talk

) 05:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I see many people who "gamed" 3RR by tag-teaming Giano. This is a blockable offense as well. Oh wait, they agree with you, so you consider their reversions as merely reverting Giano's "vandalism." Wow. I didn't think anything could make this block look any worse, but this last post accomplished just that. Mr Which??? 05:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Another note - having an arbcom case raised against you does not give you immunity from straightforward blocks such as 3RR blocks. If Giano wishes to make a statement, I'm sure somebody will move it from his talk page to RFAr for him.

• This is an odd situation - were the other people doing the reverts on the page (Ryulong and Betacommand) participants in the IRC channel as well, or just Phil? Were the edits to the page being discussed there? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 05:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• • I have not been in the IRC channel in a week and a half, and have no information to speak of on what the larger dispute is about. I saw a 3RR violation to the tune of six reverts. I blocked. That is the extent of my involvement in this matter.
    talk
    ) 05:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless the other edit warriors on that page (and yes, the other side was tag-team edit warring. No ifs ands or buts about it.) receive similar blocks, this seems to me it's a "Cuz it's Giano" block, and not only would I support an unblock, I would think the consensus here supports any unblock that I would make. SirFozzie (talk) 05:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have evidence of tag-team reverting as opposed to multiple editors who actually and genuinely believe Giano's edit to be wrong? If so, please present it and I will block straightaway. But remember - agreement between users does not constitute tag team editing.

talk

) 05:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• WP:DUCK
  perhaps? Or is the rule, "If they agree with the blocking admin, they're just participating in "agreement between users"?

Perhaps it's time to start looking for more inventive solutions: unblock Giano, on the strict condition he stops revert warring on that page; impose a temporary

single revert restriction on anyone editing the page in the future, blocking any and all violators; look into the substance of Giano's complaints -- I disagree strongly with the way he's going about things, here, but the complaint itself appears legitimate, or at least worth inquiring about. – Luna Santin (talk

) 05:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and unblocked. Sean William @ 05:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I doubt the problems will end here, hence the proposals above. – Luna Santin (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I am off to bed, as it is late and I am tired, and, more to the point, I have nothing further to add to this discussion at present - Giano made six reverts in 24 hours. I blocked at a reasonable duration for deliberate and egregious 3RR violation. This block does not preclude blocks on other editors, and I will not unblock anybody if somebody feels that other editors should be blocked. But this is not a block based on deep and subtle reasoning - there are three reverts in excess of what is allowed. I blocked. Very simple.

If I missed any 3RR violations on the part of other editors (including clear cases of actual tag-team reverting as opposed to multiple editors who agree that the edits were rubbish) please note them on my talk page and I will block in the morning. I maintain that this is a straightforward 3RR block, and strenuously deny any involvement in the underlying dispute - I've not been in IRC in a week and a half, and am unaware of any history of dispute with Giano that I have, though I may well be forgetting something. I would, frankly, be shocked at any overturning of the block, as it is wholly within the letter and intent of policy.

I suppose Phil has been in IRC and heard tag teaming there? I suppose he is counting David Gerard's "edits," which are reverts? Never mind that, though: blocking in an instance like this is obviously inflammatory, not preventative. Look how much disruption it is producing, how little it prevents. Look at how much tempers have risen, how little they have subsided.

The idea of talking to the other parties as if they were equals has never occurred to those wringing their hands over "edit warring," I know. I know this because they are absent from the talk page to the article.

When you see really widely respected people editing one way and the other, you can either form the conclusion that one side is edit warring or that the sides aren't talking. If you conclude the former, you are wrong. If you conclude the latter, then just go look at the talk page and read it. You'll see, then, whether there is dialog or monolog.

In this case, the facts say that en.admins.irc has been the home of horrible behavior. The other side wants all suggestion that such might have ever occurred (and all in passive voice) edited out, and they say that they have the facts because they spend all day in the channel. Well, there is a way to prove it: we can post the damned logs. That would be improper, so people have been e-mailing the people who don't want the edits, trying to enlighten and persuade. Oddly enough, they have gone on edit warring, engaging in

WP:OWN

, and saying that there are no such instances. Amazing.

Phil is neither neutral in this nor uninvolved, and blocking for 72 hours is absolutely insane when there was no attempt at resolution beforehand. In fact, there have been no attempts at resolution at all. Geogre (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a shred of evidence of my involvement? Because if not, that's a rather flagrant personal attack there.

talk

) 06:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Are you, or are you not, an IRC-channel operator? Vested interest in the content of that page, I would say. Mr Which??? 06:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• No more than I have a vested interest in any other policy page for being a Wikipedia administrator.
  talk
  ) 14:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

All this is very disturbing. We see experienced editors who are edit warring, and a proposal that a clear violation of 3RR be overlooked. The fact that the admin requesting the unblock is on record as a strong supporter of Giano only adds to the overall unseemliness. I agree with the gist of Giano's comments about IRC (having been a former participant there) but he went about this entirely the wrong way. Could we full-protect that stupid page for a week or so -- on the wrong or any other version -- until people's tempers cool down? Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That might have worked, in a universe where the page hadn't already been protected several times and yet administrators continued the edit war despite the protection. I already count about eight unambiguous instances of abusive administrator action not even counting the edit warring and rampant misuse of rollback. David Gerard, Geogre, and Wknight94 all made reverts while the page was protected. David Gerard and Geogre both used protection powers during the edit war they were involved in. Doc glasgow and Sean William both reversed another admin's block without allowing enough time (10 minutes and one hour, respectively) for consensus or input on the matter. Coredesat and David Fuchs both blocked a user that they also reverted in that edit war. All for this inconsequential project-space page about an IRC channel. It's ridiculous.

t

08:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Dom: You have made my point... while I find Giano's edit warring abhorrent, clearly he knows far far better. But, when you looked into this matter, you found bad behaviour by far more parties than just Giano. Blocking just Giano is partisan, I fear. I don't think compounding the matter by blocking everyone else you named off (now, well after the fact) would be at all constructive so I don't buy Phil's argument that others should go ahead and block whomever else they feel deserves it. That seems a recipe for a range war if you ask me. Raymond: I think it's irrelevant that I was once an adamant opponent of Giano and now find he has useful things to say while deploring his methods. I call partisanship as I see it. Geogre: If you're including me in those who are hand wringing about edit warring by one side, you far miss the mark. I think all parties here were warring and talking past each other. That includes you, at least to a certain extent, as well as Beta, David G., Irpen, AzaToth, Cordesat Ryulong, you name it. The lot of you know better. There have been bouts of people actually trying to talk a bit on the talk page but they don't seem to last very long before it descends back to talking past each other, and then edit warring again. And for what? ++Lar: t/c 13:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The proper way to resolve an underreaction is not to lessen the reaction. That's the height of illogic, and it's what we do every time. If Giano reacts badly to a perceived wrong that turns out to be an actual wrong, we need to stop exonerating him just because we don't want to deal with the other users opposite him in the dispute. We ought to do something about both, not neither, or this will continue to recur indefinitely (as it already feels like it has extended indefinitely in the past). Isn't it time for someone to realize that another summary unblock simply isn't going to help?

t

17:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

As the edit war has resumed, I have asked for page protection at

I've fully protected the article for 7 days, per policy and left the following comment on the talk page -> :

editprotected}} template here so everyone can see it and judge accordingly and, hopefully, a neutral admin can hop in an do what's needed. If anyone does otherwise, I'll be less than impressed - you all know the rules - Alison ^❤

09:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)