Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive61

This template was created shortly after an

I don't think it's at all possible to "keep it neutral" as it is a pure call to arms. Now nominated on

WP:TFD. David | Talk

00:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree and am glad to see it gone.

Rx StrangeLove

07:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deleted on TFD, I tagged it as deletedpage. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 05:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I have respeedied this as a horrific abuse of the template namespace, blocked all those involved in its creation, and closed the TfD. Phil Sandifer 16:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• Both the deletion and the blocks are a gross violation of
  WP:DP. Firebug
  17:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • That's nice. The template, on the other hand, is an abomination to everything that Wikipedia stands for, and that trumps pretty much everything you can come up with here. Phil Sandifer 17:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I am certainly opposed to the blocks. Neither misusing the template namespace, nor soliciting assistannce with a silly problem, are blockable offenses. -- SCZenz 17:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Ok, this is going to
        WP:RFC. Firebug
        17:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
• As the deletion is clearly out of process (this is not an attack page, it discusses actions and invites comment), I have undelted. DES ^(talk) 17:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • how is Template:Help Wikiboxes not an attack page? It's clearly aimed at gathering a lynch mob.
    Rx StrangeLove
    17:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I have unblocked two of the three users that Phil blocked; the third was already indef blocked for other (albeit related) reasons by another admin. I won't re-unblock, but I think some concrete explanation needs to be provided for blocking them. Using

• In my view they are they same thing -- totally inappropriate, and highly damaging to the project. But I do agree that out-of-process blocks are even more clearly against policy and more damaging to the project than out-of-process deletions. DES ^(talk) 17:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Process is a means to an ends. This template was an active attack on those ends. It is perfectly clear which of those needs to win out. Phil Sandifer 17:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Bullshit. I'm reinstating. We do not need a meticulous and exhaustive masturbatory discussion of this. Every part of this template is an insult to the community. It is a wholesale misunderstanding of everything that Wikipedia is. No policy, no rule, and no guideline exists that can possibly outweigh how monumentally bad this situation is. The message that this is wholly unacceptable needs to be clear and draconian. I am reinstating all the blocks and the deletion, and will continue to do so. Phil Sandifer 17:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I am willing to accept the deletion of the template. The blocks are grossly inappropriate; no justification other than "this is a bad situation" has been given. -- SCZenz 17:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The justification is this - blocks are enacted when people do very bad things on Wikipedia. This template was more harmful than anything Willy on Wheels ever did. Ergo a 48 hour block for its creator and 24 for anyone who edited it to strengthen it is wholly appropriate. Because we construct electric fences with clear "Never do this again, EVER EVER EVER" messages when we have to. Phil Sandifer 17:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree this template should be deleted, but how on earth do you justify blocking those users? Martin 17:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

What other methods do you think were appropriate of notifying userbox contributors of the ongoing out-of-process deletions? There is no evidence that any of these deletions ever reflected community consensus, and, indeed, the comments at

WP:TFD) for deleting templates that are felt to be unneeded or destructive. These actions show contempt for this process, and for the Wikipedia community. Firebug

17:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Contempt for the process is increasingly well-deserved, as the entire aftermath of Kelly's actions demonstrates.

"The message that this is wholly unacceptable needs to be clear and draconian. I am reinstating all the blocks and the deletion, and will continue to do so. Phil Sandifer 17:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)"

1. You're banning people permanantly from Wikipedia for linking to an RfC.
2. You're very much in support of Kelly Martin's abuse of admin

Bias much? Someone else should be handling this, not Snowspinner. And if Snowspinner's going to go on a personal vendetta against people that dare link to a valid RfC that happens to criticise his friends, maybe he needs his sysop privileges removed.. --Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉)} 17:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Kelly's my friend? Aww, man, I would have sent her a Christmas card! Phil Sandifer 17:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually they're only 24 (or maybe 48) hour blocks. -- SCZenz 17:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

hmm. Last time I looked it said "indefinite" - the blocks made by

User:Cryptic and User:Neutrality

And in any case Snowspinner here just vowed to "continue to reinstate the blocks", presumably indefinitely. --Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦} ⇒✉) 17:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

So, Snowspinner, you think you should be able to delete anything you please, and community consensus be damned? If this is the case, it's clear that you can no longer be trusted with administrative powers. Firebug 17:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

So remove them. Phil Sandifer 17:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

And where exactly is

Wikipedia:Request for de-adminship? AFAIK only an arbcom action or a decreee from jimbo or a self-request can de-admin anyone. It might be argued that that should not be the case, but so it is at present. if I am mistaken, please tell me. DES ^(talk)

17:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_de-adminship. Mark¹ 17:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Rx StrangeLove

17:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

How is it an "attack page" to say that templates are being mass deleted out of process and advising users where to comment if they disagree with this? Firebug 17:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

They are clearly aiming to gather a lynch mob together, look at the various versions and the wordings. This is not an "advisement". It's aimed at gathering a group of like minded users to go to the RFC and attack a user whether by signing a view or by creating one of their own. Either way it's not a balanced and neutral message. When I tried to NOP it people kept reverting to a more alarmist version. That says it all right there.

Rx StrangeLove

17:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• I second Strangelove's words. Radiant_>|< 20:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Would an uninvolved admin please review user:Talrias's blocks of Bobblewik (talk · contribs)? Talrias is involved in a content dispute with Bobblewik over the latter's delinking of stand-alone years (like 2006), and is arguably leading the opposition to it. He has also several times tried to delete the section of the MoS that Bobblewik is relying on; yet despite that involvement has blocked Bobblewik twice (the latest for a week) for following what the MoS currently says. I have unblocked Bobblewik because I feel Talrias is too involved. I did this only with a view to restoring the status quo ante, but in general I dislike undoing other admins' blocks and do it only rarely. I've also expressed a view on the Bobblewik issue and so feel uncomfortable being involved. It would be very helpful if someone could take a look with fresh eyes. I left a note for Talrias here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's clean up a couple of misconceptions; I haven't blocked him twice for "what the MoS currently says", I have blocked him firstly for what I saw as bot edits despite not having permission to have a bot, and secondly for ignoring pleas to stop his edits given the significant opposition to them. Do you actually disagree with the reason for the block, or do you just disagree that I should have blocked him? If it was the former, you should not have removed it but asked me to explain my reasoning (which I would of course be happy to do), but if it was the latter, you should have unblocked him and reblocked him yourself. Talrias (t | e | c) 03:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I object to you blocking in order to gain the upper hand in a content dispute: not just a dispute you're involved in, but one that you are leading (and may even have started). I am tired of admins being accused of being "involved" over every irrelevant interaction with a user, and equally tired of admins undoing other people's blocks, so please believe me: this is uncharacteristic of me. However, this is a crystal clear case of an admin being directly and deeply involved in the very content dispute that triggered the block. Please don't block Bobblewik again over this particular issue. In fairness, I should add that I agree that it may be inappropriate to use a bot to make contentious edits. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I can't believe you figured out my (admittedly shallow) motives so quickly! I of course blocked him so I could gain advantage in a discussion, and not because he had previously ignored a number of requests to stop his edits, nor that there was significant opposition to the section of the MOS in question. Come on SlimVirgin, your accusations are ludicrous. Talrias (t | e | c) 03:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've reblocked. There is a lot of dispute at the moment as to that section of the MOS, which was slipped in with minimal input; it's very clear that, at the least, there is no consensus about what do with linking dates. This means that someone should not be running unlinking them at rapid-fire speed with what amounts to a bot. Bobblewik has been asked to, at the very least, stop making mass edits until this is worked out, and had previously agreed to, before silently beginning them again this morning. If he wants, he can create a seperate account for his bot edits (or bot-like tool edits); else I feel we have little option than to block his main account until this is worked out. Ambi 03:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the word you were looking for is "option"--Tznkai 03:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Eeh, my grammar not so good this morning... Ambi 04:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that firstly, users should only ever make large quantities of style-based changes if it is absolutely necessary to do so, because really it would be best if they were fixed in the course of ordinary editing; moreover, making masses of changes to what are essentially minor wikisyntax issues, but cause a big difference in the method of page linking, seems to me to be an unwise thing to do. If there was consensus for both this change and Bobblewik's bot/bot-like tool, and he was using a separate account for the edits, then I suppose it would be OK. But he is using his main account, which is not generally in accordance with Wikipedia norms (

Agreed, but I do think that Talrias was at least somewhat involved- not to the extent that s/he shouldn't have blocked Bobblewik, though.--

Black

04:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to move that the term "involved" be banned from all discussions of admin conflict of interest. Can I get a second? :-P --Ryan Delaney ^talk 07:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Here you go. — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC) (who has not been following the discussion)

You've got a point, actually—but then everybody would say "in conflict", "connected", "currently married to", and so on :).--

Black

07:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Random thoughts: I fully agree that it was right to block Bobblewik for making large-scale changes without consensus (when will people learn that others get pissed off by that?). However, users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in an article-editing conflict. I've long felt the lack of a simple "request for help"-type page where we could call for assistance, without the rambling discussion that this page always fills up with. Mark¹ 22:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks like User:Brazil4Linux is avoiding his 1 month block for gaming his 3RR block with sockpuppetry. Can I get someone with Check User to verify that this is indeed one more sockpuppet? User in question is User:Dungeon Siege / Special:Contributions/Dungeon_Siege. I think if this is proven to be him going around his 1 month block I think its time to make it indef. Thanks in advance.  ALKIVAR™ 12:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh and while your at it could you also verify that these are definately him (they all had too much in common, but i'd like definitive confirmation).  ALKIVAR™ 12:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

If it's not a sock, he should be looked into anyways for repeatedly posting copyrighted material to HD DVD. (And, if you look at the history of HD DVD (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), you'll see some other IP's have also restored the copyrighted material; could also be him). —Locke Cole • t • c 15:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

My two cents- I am absolutely convinced that it's a sock, and the evidence that the others are socks too is overwhelming as well. It's just such an obvious pattern of behavior, especially with the individual's use of logged out IPs. Even if you remove the completely identical speech patterns, calling everyone else "vandals" and attacks against Microsoft and the US, we have the IP patterns-

User will make edits with his account. User uses up his 3RR or gets banned, which is when the user will follow up immediately with logged-out edits that directly enforce their page version. Those logged out edits trace right back to the veloxzone.com.br or dialuol.br ISPs that Brazil4Linux uses.

Brazil did it-

Brazil4Linux uses up his 3rd revision-

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ken_Kutaragi&oldid=30329737

02:48, 6 December 2005 Brazil4Linux

So he starts using IP 200.147.61.151 to enforce his version of the page against the group consensus. Repeatedly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ken_Kutaragi&oldid=30400785

200.147.61.151 traces to dialuol.com.br

Quackshot did it-

Quackshot uses up his 3rd revision-

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nintendo_Revolution&oldid=31623947

So he starts using 201.29.35.148 to enforce his version of the page against the group consensus. Repeatedly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nintendo_Revolution&oldid=31719324

201.29.35.148 traces to: user.veloxzone.com.br

ForeverWatch did it, Oddie did it, CoreSystem and BreakingRules did it (mostly to try and repeatedly replace my userpage with a picture of a donkey),

And now Dungeon Seige is doing it.

Dungeon Seige makes his last edit-

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neowin&oldid=33584843

And he uses 201.29.59.5 to enforce his edit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neowin&oldid=33602573

201.29.59.5 traces to: user.veloxzone.com.br

He's created himself a paper trail. Daniel Davis 18:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC) (Doom127)

On User Talk:Jimbo Wales#About the Personal Appeal User:Dungeon Siege complains about Wikipedia's abusiveness but all of his "proof" is about User:Brazil4Linux. Jedi6 22:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

If you see any vandalism, copy it into here: User:Sunfazer/Vandalism

- and quote the user who did it! The page is an archive of various vandalism types, and is useful for the CVU. --Sunfazer 15:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

That is going to be a big page. If you're looking for a way to collect records of vandalism, you can collect a bunch quite quickly by watching Recent Changes for admin reverts. (Look for any edits with the summary Reverted edits by JoeBlow(talk) to last version by JohnSmith.) The preceding edit(s) are almost always vandalism or user tests; check to be sure. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It's for the

Try watching the block log, too—there's usually a good supply of vandals there. Running through the list of old ArbCom cases would also give you some hits. Are you looking for persistent vandals who haven't been blocked...? I'm curious about the ultimate purpose and use(fulness) of the list. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think CVU should be able to recognise vandals by now. If not, one must wonder what on Earth they think they've been doing all this time ... fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 18:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh few examples are ok, hence the word example. You do not need to log all vandalism. There are plenty examples generated in the past 60 seconds at any given time. CVU ment to lure more people to RC patrol and assist them in identifying vandalism. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 21:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not for routine vandalism.... but wacky vandalism! --Sunfazer 21:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you mean

WP:BJAODN? fuddlemark (fuddle me!

) 08:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

               So A Big Thanks For All Your Hard Work!!!

What, may I inquire, is this doing here..? -MegamanZero|Talk 21:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Is repeatedly inserting unformatted images into articles, despite requests from other users to read the appropriate tutorial pages, considered vandalism? Because that is exactly what Delonnette (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing. Note that he/she has been asked countless times to provide source and copyright information for the images that he/she uploads, and continues to upload unsourced images and dump them unformatted into the article namespace. He/she has already been blocked for vandalism, previously uploaded unsourced images and violating the 3RR on Michelle Ryan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and has only left one comment on his/her talk page (a response to why she uploaded identical images under different filenames). What do the policies and guidelines say about this type of behaviour? Extraordinary Machine 23:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Inserting unformatted into articles, isn't really a problem, but repeatedly uploading images without copyright tags is. I've come across this behaviour before with another user about a year ago. I don't think there are any definite policy guidlines on it. In the end we had to use common sense and simply delete any untagged image as soon as it was uploaded. It was the onl7y way to get the message through. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Per the warning Extraordinary Machine gave on Delonnette's talk page, I'd suggest waiting two days for source information on the noted images, then delete them if none is forthcoming. In line with Theresa's comment above, I'd say that any additional unsourced uploads should be shot on sight until the user gets the hint. (If that doesn't work, then escalating blocks may need to be applied; I hope it doesn't come to that.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo has said, not too long ago, that it's OK to block users who are uploading unsourced images repeatedly even after warning. This is a real threat to the project and must be stopped. As far as unformatted, just fix it. --

♥♥♥♥ chocolate!

) 00:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been watching this user closely and trying to communicate with them, and get the distinct impression from their edits and uploads that they are quite young and probably don't fully understand the ramifications of what they're repeatedly doing. I think any future communication with this user needs to bear that in mind. --

Francs2000

00:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

If you block them. They may very well simply come back under another username. Whereas if you delete their "work" they will probably get the message. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

This hasn't worked in the past: on at least two occasions in the last month I have had cause to delete a whole load of images uploaded by this user that had been tagged appropriately and not actioned. --

Francs2000

00:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting tagging them for deletion.I'm suggesting deleting the moment they are uploaded and then going to her talk page and stating that you did it and will do it again and again until she either stops uploading or starts tagging the images correctly. 00:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked her indefinitely for repeated block evasion, sockpuppetry, disruption, personal attacks, and the whole general "Don't be a detriment to the project" package we do occasionally. Phil Sandifer 23:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget the legal threats [1]. I support this. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I have also protected her talk page. Phil Sandifer 00:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

A load of admins have been deleting and a load of other admins and users have been restoring or recreating the redirect

Isn't the standard block for a lame edit war something like 17 seconds? --cesarb 01:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we not do things that suggest that the lynching of one of our most respected community members is a major Wikipedia page that requires a shortcut. Phil Sandifer 01:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Me too, which is why I just re-deleted it, and re-protected it. I wonder how long it'll last? --

Francs2000

01:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a shortcut that's easier to type than the whole damn mess. Other RFC's and RFAr's have shortcuts, I don't see why this one is suddenly so special. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Example of an WP redirect to an RFC?Geni 01:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Special:Prefixindex/WP:RFC, knock yourself out. You can modify that to look for RFAr shortcuts too. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

hmmm only 3 legit parrelles and two of those created by the user on the reciveing end of the RFC. All created nov 2005. Not much of a president.Geni 01:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

And the precedent for deleting shortcuts out of hand and for no legitimate reason? Examples? —Locke Cole • t • c 01:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

fallacy of the excluded middle.Geni 02:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Special:Prefixindex/WP:RFAR/, one of those is from January of 2005. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I know. That is why I refered to RFcs only. RFArs area little diferent since if they result in parole they basic act as policy descission for the user on parole. There is also the issue that RFAr cases can set important presedents. That may be cited in future cases.Geni 02:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I disagree. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in your reasoning, I'm just hoping you'll all stop soon, grow up and go and do something constructive. Talrias (t | e | c) 01:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Talrias, I agree about wheel wars, and as you were recently involved in/caused one of the nastiest we've seen in a long time, when you reduced Marsden's block twice before he was blocked indefinitely by Jimbo, I'm glad you've seen the error of your ways. ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

How wonderfully off-topic of you, with a rather significant exaggeration of what took place (I didn't cause it, and it was hardly one of the "nastiest we've seen in a long time" seeing as I just reduced the length of a block duration twice and I discussed it fully both times). I would be grateful if you stopped posting messages criticising me everywhere as you often get your facts wrong in them. Talrias (t | e | c) 02:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen a WP link for an RFA. I don't see a need to start now. I don't think anyone has broken the 3RR and blocks would be a really great way to increase tension. Not something we want to do. Just explain in carm terms to those createing it that what they are doing is not consistant with wikipedia practice. If you want to see something slighty worrying cheack out what links here for that page.Geni 01:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

You all should be bloody ashamed of yourselves, and since when do we care about "raising tensions" when it comes to 3RR? This stinks more and more of the rules only applying to the little people. -

brenneman^(t)(c)

01:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel that accuseing me of all people of only applying rules to little people is ironic. Of course I will rexamine the case to deterime if there has been a 3RR violation but as yet I don't think there has been.Geni 01:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFC/LAW, et cetera. --CBD _☎ ^✉

01:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that we not describe a process by which the community tells a user their opinion on their behavior as a "lynching." It's not just disrespectful to Kelly, and to the community, but also to those who have actually been lynched. Lynching is a process that typically involved mutilation, bodily harm, and gruesome execution, not discussion. Can you turn the rhetoric down about 11 notches, please? It's hugely irritating when trolls on the RFC page describe Kelly as a Nazi fascist (or whatever), and it's hugely irritating when those defending her describe the RFC process as a lynching. Believe it or not, there are plenty of editors on both sides of the debate that, surprise surprise, want to actually build a good encyclopedia, and not just cause harm to a group of way c00l IRC best fri3ndz forever omgwtfbbq1111one1. Nandesuka 01:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the phrase "lynch mob" has kind of become a desensitized phrase. Phil Sandifer 01:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear God. Let me just say I hope I'm not the first person to point out that there's an encyclopedia somewhere around here. I don't care about userboxes, I don't care about shortcut links to RFCs, and the sheer amount of time-wasting that's going on at that RFC and elsewhere is mind-boggling. Really. En-cy-clo-ped-i-a.

My thoughts exactly. Dragons flight 01:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Umm, this is _so_ not about the userboxes. It's about the fact that one person's view of what constitutes the best way to build an encyclopedia shouldn't trample anothers. It's about having the smallest shred of respect for opinions that differ from your own. It's about people behavining as if they understood that when you've got some powers, you should use them responsibly. I think userboxes are dumb. But I also have never been more disgusted with the powers-that-be than in the last few days. For Mike's sake, "lynching of one of our most respected community members"? How about some

brenneman^(t)(c)

01:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I could, but

Cryptic (talk)

02:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

And, lets be frank, it's not the 700 odd admins who build this encyclopedia, it's mostly the scores of grunts who don't have the power to just delete and protect something they don't like. Show some bloody respect for the

brenneman^(t)(c)

01:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well if I can state my bit as the person who finally deleted and protected the deletion: I saw a page that five other admins had tried to delete before me and did the delete/protect to provoke discussion, which has worked. If I can have assurances from parties involved that they're not going to start edit warring over it once again I am more than happy to restore the redirect. --

Francs2000

02:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

If however she hangs on, the likelihood is that controversy will follow her to the arbcom. She will be criticised for everything she does as an admin and like others caught up in far less controversial incidents she will end up quitting WP in frustration. IMHO, putting on my admin-hat and political advisor-hat, her position is untenable. When your action causes such a firestorm of a negative reaction, either you apologise and diffuse the situation, or you stand firm (as she seems intend on doing) and try to hang in there. As anyone involved in leadership positions (whether in politics, business, non-governmental organisations, charities, general organisations, etc) knows, in instances like this to try to hang on is sheer suicide. If she tries to hang on she will be destroyed by it and will end up quitting Wikipedia. It boils down to two options: 'resign and rebuild', or 'be destroyed'. Those with experience of crisis management know that there is no middle ground. (BTW a political consultant would have charged at least €2000 to give advice to someone in business in a similar situation!) FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's please not bring that nasty discussion here. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I decree that

On the talk page, the anon.'s contributions begin at: Talk:Germanic_people#Request

... and gets progressively more annoying as one scrolls down. P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 02:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

postscript: apparently he/she/it also blanked a recent edit of mine to that talk page. Lovely. I fixed it.

pansophia attempting to personally identify a user on kaiser permanente discussion board — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cotman68 (talk • contribs)

I pointedly did NOT identify this person out of respect for his privacy, though I could have easily. I'm only trying to clarify the bias of someone who has been throwing around a lot of accusations. --Pansophia 03:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Said user is believed to be a sockpuppet of

Is there any reason that a couple of 24hr blocks should not go out for this? -

Um, scroll down just a bit...

help us

) 04:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

You know how after a certain number of edit conflicts in one day you just start to ignore them and hope for the bast? Sorry. -

brenneman^(t)(c)

04:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

From a brief look at the archived discussion, Majora's Mask probably wouldn't have passed without the puppets' support. If we're satisfied that they are puppets, then something should be done about that (summary removal? FARC? probably best to enlist Raul). Mark¹ 11:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Raul has a nice link to this thread on his talkpage to start the new year with when he wakes up. As for satisfied, well, I don't rate a personal opinion, but if we trust CheckUser, it seems they are.[4] Anybody who's interested should also click on Bunchofgrapes' telling comment here. Bishonen | talk 12:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC).

I fully support blocking the two sockpuppets. :) Ambi 12:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Lucky Raul! I also support blocking the puppeteers immediately and indefinitely. [[Sam Korn]] 12:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The puppets have to be excluded. On reflection, the block of Hollow for a week is at least a start. Geogre 13:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I have blocked the puppets indefinitely; the only question is the Hollow Wilerding account. Only a one-week block, say you, Geogre? Maybe that's enough. I hope to get Raul's input on the question of a FAC ban that I raised. Bishonen | talk 13:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocking the Hollow Wilerding account does raise the problem that AFAIK, blocks are intended to be for preventing harm rather than for punishment. I wouldn't shed too many tears for her, though. Mark¹ 14:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right, we're not going to block in revenge for the harm she has done to the FAC process (even though besides the puppetry it includes general disruption, see comments and links at the RFA). Perhaps a ban from FAC, with blocks as appropriate in case the ban is ignored, would be enough. What a business, though. :-( I wonder if anybody has ever been banned from FAC before. Bishonen | talk 14:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I now understand that the entire community has been against me since the day I signed up here. This displeases me greatly. Okay, I have some stuff to tell you people.

What makes the three of us so special? We were unable to edit on the Wikipedia community without several users lashing out at us. I did absolutely nothing to get to this position today. DrippingInk did not do anything either; Winnermario did, but we're going to exclude her from this conversation. I contribute to Wikipedia almost everyday, and have been attempting to elevate numerous articles to substantial quality. I do more than some users who have been on this site for two years have. Yet I am still treated as though we're all sockpuppets of each other. Have any of you read Wikipedia:Assume good faith? I was only doing my best to make some articles become excellent, and never intended to stir any controversy. Actually, if I might say, it was all of the other users who stirred the brew. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 15:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's what I was looking for! This whole thing really is quite a shame, as you are such a good editor. Although HW has done some... questionable things, during her time here, I think this is the real deal guys and gals. If you talk to her only a little bit you'll find that all those quotes that are spread around of hers aren't an accurate representation of who she really is. And if her roomies do nothing but support her in everything she does on here, how is that any different than a lot of the voting that goes on in this place anyway? Search4Lancer 15:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel like for the first time on Wikipedia I can show my true colours now that everyone knows who DrippingInk and Winnermario are. If people want to see the real me, then User:Search4Lancer is right: I can do it now! Perhaps I should have announced this a little while ago. I was bottled up from the community because I feared for my life on this website (does that sound just a bit unusual to be saying)? I hereby request the unblocking of User:DrippingInk, as he did not do anything to deserve this. Actually, he currently is unaware that he is even blocked; User:Winnermario can remain blocked, as she no longer accesses Wikipedia, but please remove the notice saying that she is a sock puppet. She is not! I just want to help the community, but it seemed as though everyone was attempting to prevent this. I will ensure that DrippingInk no longer votes on any of the FACs I nominate. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 15:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Bishonen really despises me. I have been finding messages posted by him regarding User:Winnermario and myself in several places around Wikipedia. A grudge can only be held for so long. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I may just be more cynical than you, Lancer, but this was hardly a heat of the moment denial. Hollow and "DrippingInk"'s bogus conversations indicate a quite impressive level of deviousness. Mark¹ 16:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Bogus? No. Those conversations were the two of us socializing in an attempt that our IP addresses would not be discovered. You have to understand that we brought no harm to Wikipedia, as a matter of fact, it is you and the other group of Wikipedians inflicting the harm by throwing every specific detail at us, regardless of what it is to ensure our blocks. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have
  been bold and stripped this article of its featured article status, since it achieved that status through outright fraud. Nandesuka
  16:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• Your effort is futile. It received enough votes to become featured, and I spent a lot of time on it to ensure it achieve featured article status. Should it be stripped, I will be taking extra measures. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The article, discounting the two support votes from DrippingInk and Winnermario, received 6 support votes and three oppose votes, roughly 67% support. I'm not familiar with the percentage required to become a FA, but this seems borderline to me. There really aren't any "extra measures" you can take, AFAIK, except to resubmit it — which, if it is as good as you say it is, it should pass with little difficulties. Hermione1980 16:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Exactly! If the article is removed of its FA status, and I get blocked permanently, what kind of an example is Wikipedia setting? "You can accomplish something, however because you are afraid of an IP-sharing issue, we're going to remove your hard work, and remove you as well". —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Such as what? Nandesuka 16:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I will file an RfC. It is not fair to remove these pages of their statuses until this situation is resolved, because it makes the rest of Wikipedia look like a powerhouse that insists they are always right. The subject in general—me, in this case—looks helpless and has no chance of saving herself. Anyway, next case to ensure my block. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
      • OK. I have stripped
        WP:AN indicating that I have done so, and why. You can go ahead and file an RFC if you wish. My personal opinion is that you would be better served by apologizing to the community and help the article pass the FAC process legitimately than by filing an RFC complaining that I have undone what you accomplished through fraud. But you have to make your own decisions. Nandesuka
        16:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Exactly! If the article is removed of its FA status, and I get blocked permanently, what kind of an example is Wikipedia setting? "You can accomplish something, however because you are afraid of an IP-sharing issue, we're going to remove your hard work, and remove you as well". —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC).
        • I posted this message above your comment. As you stripped it of its FA status, I am going to be restoring it, as you have exhibited a disgusting attitude toward this website. Hermione1980 made a comment that it would have passed anyhow, and I have decided that it would be best for me to take serious actions. Never remove someone else's hard-earned work because they committed "fraud", which was not believed to be so. Wikipedia is going to be the end of itself since it has users who are arrogant due to a hierachy that was formed by the people who materialised the site; admins, which should not be existing on this site. Starting off the new year by hurting my presence on Wikipedia is going to be regretful. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
          • Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that it would have passed anyway. I said that it was borderline. I also said I wasn't familiar with the guidelines for FAC. Hermione1980 16:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Yes, you are right, and therefore, I apologize. Please forgive me. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
          • Apology accepted. No problem. Hermione1980 18:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the FA status of this article. The general rule has nothing to do with the number of support votes, and everything to do with whether objections are being met. Sockpuppeting in support of a FA is thus a kind of useless procedure - unless Raul has dramatically changed his evaluation procedure, what he does is look at the objections and see if they're actionable and substantial. If not, the article gets promoted. Phil Sandifer 16:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• Mark this date down: I agree with Snowspinner 100% here. FAC is not a majority or supermajority case: it is a unanimity case. There can be no substantial objections. Thus, it possibly shouldn't have been promoted in the first place. Further the "extraordinary measures" threat, along with the "the whole site is organized against me" (should that have been "we?"), indicates some very unhelpful attitudes, attitudes that don't belong on Wikipedia. Deception is never a good policy, and achieving your goals by lying is evil. The blocks are in place for lying, at least three times, and attempting to avoid the first block by setting up a new account. Setting up yet another account, as appears to be taking place, is only going to result in wider blocks, as well as attempts to actually contact some of the people this user is pretending to be. Geogre 20:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

What strikes me about this mess is that, taking him at his word, from the get go, User:Hollow Wilerding was aware that the activities of himself, User:Winnermario and User:DrippingInk could be taken as sockpuppet activity, since they shared the same IP. And yet, instead of coming right out and saying, "Okay, we got three people here sharing the same computer - we are not sockpuppets, we are just two siblings and a roomie," they go to great lengths to actively conceal this information. Real conversations or no, those conversations were done in an effort to deceive. If the three of them had come clean from the beginning, and perhaps promised not to act on the same things to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, it could have been worked out. Instead, they opted for skullduggery. This does not engender trust at all.

My suggestions: Strip the article of FA status with leave to resubmit for FAC by someone else. Next, and this is the most generous thing we should do: remove the sockpupper notice from

Actually, we never told anyone because when you think about it, it isn't really any of your business. This is Wikipedia, and some of its users could be living in New Zealand or Europe or South America for all we know; we don't have to reveal our mundane identities. The article should remain with its status, and this account I am currently operating, User:Hollow Wilerding, is going to merge with User:DrippingInk so that the controversy can be placed aside. A new account, User:Siblings CW, is being created today for a fresh, clean slate. And also because today is the beginning of the new year. ;) —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

To quote you above: "It is not fair for us to be blocked because we feared we would be treated as sockpuppets of each other because we all share the same computer. That is why we kept it a secret." (my emphasis) So to take you at your word, you hid this from everyone because you knew that sockpuppeting accusations would be leveled if people found out. And so they have. Like I said, the most sensible thing would have been to be upfront about it right at the start, but you chose badly, and have damaged your own credibility as a result, regardless of how good your edits are. I would suggest that

khaosworks (talk • contribs

) 19:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

A notice on their page saying it's a shared computer? What's the point of that? Plenty of us have let someone else use our computer from time to time, and you don't see us roaming around with such a sticker on our foreheads. And they can't bloody well vote on the same things now anyway, as they're now sharing a username. Search4Lancer 19:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I was speaking of

khaosworks (talk • contribs

) 01:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's what we're going to do about the article. I am leaving it on the featured list for the time being, along with its featured tag. The FARC will continue, with the probable result being to remove its featured status. Assuming that happens, Hollow will then have the opportunity to renominate it to the FAC. Raul654 18:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

All right, here's what I'm going to do about the editor. I deduce from Raul's message that he's against banning HW from FAC; therefore, I will instead block the Hollow Wilerding account for one week for disruption, abusive sockpuppetry, and inveterate deception. I'm sorry, but

Wikipedia:Mailing list, if you wish to protest the block. I'm cross-posting this message to User talk:Hollow Wilerding. Any objections, comments? Bishonen | talk

22:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC).

Well, I don't know, I really don't. HW's response on her talkpage to my block, see previous message, contains among other things a legal threat (though admittedly a pretty ridiculous one—" I may even go as far as suing the Wikipedia Foundation for misuse of allowing its users to block innocent victims") and a promise that "when I come back, it isn't going to be pretty. A new account is once again going to be established for DrippingInk and myself to use come our return." IOW, a new multiuser (that's not allowed) sock (not that, either) account to replace the one I blocked a few hours ago. Going by past edit warring on

I think a cooling off period for HW is definitely warranted. Raul654 00:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

One that's infinitely long, I hope. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Since input was requested... I think the whole thing is just weird, and agree that HW needs to cool off, and any new accounts created to eavde the block should be blocked. I don't really take the legal threat seriously here. Do agree strongly with WP:NOT a battleground, and would like to see constructive edits from HW afterward that take this into account. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Can we turn legal threats into grounds for permabanning?--Tznkai 01:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's not a battleground? Tell them. On-topic, though: I think perhaps He/She/They should get to keep editing at one account, but make it their choice: if it's the new User:Siblings CW, so be it, as long as HW is then blocked indefinitely. If that lets him/her/they feel like it's a "fresh start", all the better. I feel like we already have all the evidence we need that this user should not be allowed to run multiple accounts, though. A corollary of that seems to be that as long as HW maintains that "a new account is once again going to be established for DrippingInk and myself to use come our return", the main account should remain blocked. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No matter what side of that you fall on, 142kb of bitching is inexcusable--Tznkai 01:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent trolling there! I give it an 8 out of 10, but I'm the East German judge on these things. Phil Sandifer 02:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit to slight confusion of what your definition of trolling is here. Care to explain?--Tznkai 02:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Bringing in a totally off-topic issue as an ad hominem attack. Phil Sandifer 03:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Tabling the impending discussion on whether accusing someone of trolling is an attack, ad hominem implies "against the person". Exactly who is being attacked here?--Tznkai 04:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but that's not really helping anything either, you must admit.--

Black

02:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bunchofgrapes that this user shouldn't have more than one account. But I'm very much against the "sibling" account notion also, as confusing, and a bypass of the normal way of changing one's username (which is to ask a bureaucrat to... change one's username). It seems to me to be a blatant attempt to obfuscate the sockpuppet issue. And with (supposedly) two people using one account, which of them is accountable for what the account does? It's not desirable to provide problem editors with extra opportunities of blaming others for their actions, and that's why such accounts are discouraged. I've blocked User:Siblings CW and reverted the redirects to it of Hollow Wilerding's userpages. Any admin can unblock the siblings account, but I'd like to be on record that I'm against it. I won't unblock it. Bishonen | talk 02:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, since they've just been blocked for using two accounts under the same IP, it seems illogical to disallow one account for them. This way, at least vote-stacking or similar antics won't be a problem. Also, "accountability"? If there's any serious problem, we have no more hard facts than the IP anyway. When they share one, they just have to take the blame for each other's actions, but that's life. -- grm_wnr Esc 02:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Since when weren't sockpuppet accounts allowed? They are discouraged, but they certainly aren't disallowed. Furthermore, nowhere, absolutely NOWHERE does it say that you cannot have a multi-user account. Bishonen, you obviously have some reading up to do. You are pulling policies that don't exist out of your ass just to block HW, and that is completely unacceptable. Search4Lancer 02:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Search4Lancer, that's a lot of ignorance and bad faith you impute to me, and quite a tone you use to express your certainties in. Sockpuppet accounts used for votestacking or for creating an impression of greater support aren't "discouraged", they're outlawed by official policy: please see

Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. Public accounts are disallowed. Bishonen | talk

03:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sockpuppet accounts used for votestacking et al are not allowed, but that is not what you said. You said sockpuppet accounts aren't allowed. In addition, it says nowhere in the policies that public/shared accounts are not allowed. Fine and swell if you're going to point me to some other page, but if it's to be considered a policy, it needs to be on the policy page. Search4Lancer 07:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Public accounts are disallowed (that's an account where the password is broadcast or widely shared), but shared accounts do fall into a grey area: isn't User:Hydnjo two people? (I could be confused there.) There's no policy that I know against it, though it's not a good idea. As for holding such an account responsible, whatever one does, both are responsible for. All with a big grain of salt as far as believing that this actually is two people.

Bishonen is spot-on regarding both sockpuppet policy and Search4Lancer's incivility. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to be in any way rude here, and the only effect being rude is likely to have is to make other people discount your opinions. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Bunchofgrapes - It is very difficult to please everybody with 'civility' when such blatant idiocy is rampant. I really don't care one way or another what people think of me. Search4Lancer 07:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Hydnjo is, indeed, a husband-and-wife team of editors. While that's not made clear by any sort of disclaimer on their user page, the photo captioned as "Heidi & Joe" is probably sufficient... android79 03:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's best we tread with caution. It is not impossible what Hollow's saying is true, so I will be unblocking the siblings account. Hollow still not use this account for the duration of the block against her main account, however.

CVU

) 02:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the following from User:Hollow Wilerding's user talk page:

...Wow. I am devastated. So multi-users are not allowed, are they? Then we have a huge issue. If multi-users are not allowed, why have User:DrippingInk and User:Winnermario been blocked? If we can't have a shared account, then we have no choice but to access individual accounts, and as it stands, that's going to be under the same IP address! Yet for some peculiar reason, both of the accounts in mention above have been blocked! That means both William and Mariah will have to create new accounts, yet I am positive User:Bishonen will block them again because (s)he will assume that they are sock puppets all over again! What a terrible issue this is! I hereby demand myself to be unblocked so that I can file the RfC right now. You seem to have cut a thread.

1. You never told me that a multi-user account was prohibited, so therefore, you call it "another sock puppet account".
2. You continue to believe that User:DrippingInk and User:Winnermario are sock puppets.
3. You have failed to register Wikipedia:Assume good faith.
4. It doesn't appear as though you read any of my responses and comments at the administrators' board. Does this indicate you wanted to ensure my block?
5. It was my decision not to tell the entire Wikipedia community that we shared a computer. Therefore, you cannot assume bad faith, yet you never assumed good faith either.
6. User:Bishonen has abused his/her sysop abilities, and should be stripped of them immediately.

—Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 01:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the user who has been blocked; 1) she seems to have been blocked in an attempt to exclude her from the conversation at the administrators' board in order for her to receive punishment without any objections or responses; 2) everyone believes the other accounts to be sock puppets which indicates that no one is following Wikipedia:Assume good faith; 3) is there a reason that User:Hollow Wilerding be punished for this in the first place? If there really are three separate users accessing the same computer, there is no reason to block all three of them because they did not want to speak the truth. This entire accusation is a form of abuse and also an example of over-powered admins whom have the ability to taunt oneself a bad name. Since no sysop has verifiable references or sources that User:Hollow Wilerding is one person, this block is unacceptable. After all, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. 64.231.128.57 14:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Hollow Wilerding's block extended for block evasion

1. The newbie anon is a wholehearted supporter of HW, which, not to put too fine a point on it, is a very unusual attitude outside of the small flock of users who live in HW's computer. No single user voted Support on HW's RFA.
2. HW has specifically expressed frustration at not being able to post to WP:ANI, and the anon has remedied that by moving a selected post from her talkpage here. The anon also actually raises the same point. Another similarity is that they share the same obsession with
   WP:AGF
   , perhaps the only policy "they" know the name of, yet probably not the first that most people would refer to in a case like this.
3. After posting here, 64.231.128.57 went on to edit several pop music articles, which is HW's great interest on Wikipedia. Please note especially that the anon edited two articles, Garlic and Mariah Carey, that have nothing in common except the special interest HW takes in bringing them to FAC quality, as shown on her talkpage (now deleted, but see the history).
4. 64.231.128.57 talks like HW. Some people may consider this a subtle point, but I'm confident they'll know what I mean if they've read HW's articles before copyediting, or her input on talkpages. HW's writing style is very characteristic. Consider for instance the anon's phrase "over-powered admins whom have the ability to taunt oneself a bad name".

IMO these points together easily amount to 100% certainty. I've blocked 64.231.128.57 for 8 hours only, on Kelly Martin's advice, to minimize any risk of collateral damage. I have also extended Hollow Wilerding's block to two weeks, starting now, for egregious block evasion and the attempt above to falsely insinuate support for her position as expressed on her talkpage (go read it, folks!). If any more IPs from the same range should appear to edit HW's special-interest articles and/or support her position, I encourage admins to block them on sight. Bishonen | talk 20:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Appears entirely conclusive to me. I support the actions. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Bunchofgrapes. Hollow Wilerding implicitly admits the deception in her reply to my block notification. Perhaps more startlingly, she vows to continue to evade her block: "I will continue to log on to separate IP addresses as long as I am capable of in order to boycott this notorious situation." I ask again: is this a user we want to keep around? Take a look at her talkpage for assorted vague threats ("Prepare yourselves for hell"). Bishonen | talk 23:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Getting worse: Concrete legal threat now [5]. Hollow is doing everything (s)he can to make sure the answer to Bishonen's last question is "no". —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

What's the appropriate response to persistent legal threats? Blocked indefinitely, and protect the talk page? Nandesuka 00:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't say who she's filing a lawsuit against, so can't be considered a legal threat, as you don't know. Maybe she got hit by a drunk earlier, and is filing a lawsuit against him for pain and suffering? You don't know. This is a good editor that you're just doing everything in your power to hammer away at. Search4Lancer 00:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Per Bishonen above, AGF =/= PYS (pretend you're stupid). [[Sam Korn]] 00:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Search4Lancer, you must be kidding. 23:18 1 Jan 2006: [6] Hollow Wilerding "may even go as far as suing the Wikipedia Foundation for misuse of allowing its users to block innocent victims". 00:09 2 Jan 2006: [7] You yourself tell her "Don't make legal threats. It's immature, and makes you look as such. Legal threats are also a good way to get oneself blocked forever." And now you want anyone to believe that today's [8] and [9] ("Legal action is commencing") might be about a separate matter? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that it is a distinct possibility. A small one, but nonetheless. :-) Search4Lancer 01:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

On the user page for User:Empty Wallow she states, "My name is Mariah Wilerding (not Courtni; that was a pseudonym)." Well that's practically admitting the sockpuppetry isn't it? IMO, this user has issues with maintaining her personalities and should be given a one-way ticket to a wikivacation. Is a disruptive editor like this one the community wants to keep around? I would be concerned even if I found out that one of my children was assigned to her as a teacher. Fortunately she is in Canada, unless she's lying about that as well. --malber 22:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Such behavior is generaly adequate for a block as it falls under trolling. Do not begin about it being 'minor'. Similar behavior is visible on his contributions. He is supposed to be on his best behaviour, he should be making an effort to at least try to be an exemplory editor for people like me to even consider "forgiving" his earlier behaviour.

He has shown great improvement over the time since he has been unblocked. We did not have vandal bots causing havoc. I guess one can call that improvement. People should write vandal bots and then be forgiven. No one minds their 'minnor' annoyance otherwise would get them blocked.

Why do wikipedians such as myself as well as many others have to tollerate the nonsense he posts here and there every so often?

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 21:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• You don't. Just don't read his comments. Quite simple, really. -MegamanZero|Talk 21:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
  • If his comments arent worth reading I do not see why he should be allowed to contribute, this guy vandalised my userpage over 400 times (nonstop with vnadalbots 5 waves) alove --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 21:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

That's where I draw the line. Such disregard for policy and overlying inconsideration for articles and pages is uttertly unacceptable. I recomend a 24 - 48 hour block right away. -MegamanZero|Talk 05:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

400 times..?!! Geez. -MegamanZero|Talk 18:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Could somebody help me here? I found an article that seems to defy any definition of a "good article" (it's extremely biased, outragious claims are made, and the sources used to back up those claims consist largely out of tiny newspaper snippets that are blown up out of proportion to make the subject sound like the second coming of the christ). So far, so easy, but there is a devoted following of wikipedia users that seems to prevent any sensible editing or removal of the article. What should I do? Article here: Aladin. Is there a way to look for sockpuppets in the article history and the currently running vote for deletion (here)? Any help (and votes) would be greatly appreciated, thank you. Peter S. 21:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, you've listed it in AfD

Personal attacks like this. Thanks. --Ragib

21:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I've never heard of him - but I'm not into magic. I don't think having worked for the GLA is worthy of a wikipedia article - and he took time out from his magic career to do that so he's not that great a magician. I smell a rat tbh. Secretlondon 21:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

That's why we have

AfD. --Ragib

22:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed we have, we are in the middle of it. Peter S. 22:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Ragib, you see I was *asking _if_* there are sockpuppets there. I never did any accusations, that's solely your interpretation. Like Secretlondon, I really smell a rat here. Peter S. 22:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You can check out the contributions of the users. Sockpuppets tend to be created solely for ballot stuffing. Lack of contribution histories indicated the existence of sockpuppets. --Ragib 22:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, there are some forms of sockpuppet-checking that are reserved for administrators (
  WP:SOCK: "If there is doubt, a developer or checkuser user can check to see whether accounts are related"), which is what I was requesting, amongst other things. I'm sorry if my writing induced disrespect in you, I didn't mean no harm, as long as we both try to make wikipedia a better place. Peter S.
  22:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

mCheckuser is only available to ArbCom members, and used sparingly to protect user privacy. As I said, usually, the lack of prior contributions is the first way to detect sockpuppets. Thanks. --Ragib 22:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe nominating it for deletion was not the best way to deal with the nauseatingly promotional text. Why not try making the tone encyclopedic, paragraph by painful paragraph? It might actually make it better, or at least will force his devotees to admit their inability to recognize and reject blatant advertising material. alteripse 22:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, that's what I tried in the past 3 months - didn't work out (check the talk page and the history). But then again, if you remove all the promo-stuff, all that is left is an article about a unnotable person (abstract of aladin: he performs rarely, is portrayed in 1 book, and works for the City of London, that's all), so that's the reason why I nominated the article for deletion. Peter S. 22:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• • Or a dude who was International Magician of The year 1991 [10] but I've mentioned this on the delete page. All the users who have taken part can't all be sock-puppets. Englishrose 22:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Englishrose, the organisation behind "International Magician of The year" doesn't even have a website, how notable can this award be? There are thousands of such smallish awards with grandiose names. Bottom line is, Aladin performs rarely, is portrayed in 1 book, and works for the London gov, so I really really can't see how he's notable. Peter S. 22:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
• [11] Over a 1k google hits for the phrase. But this needs to be mentioned on the afd page. Lots of others disagree with you. By all means check if they're sock-puppets but if they're not then let the vote stand. Englishrose 23:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• That's more like 123 hits: [12] Google is very bad at estimating hit numbers for rarely asked queries. Compare those 123 hits to Academy awards [13], where you get 4+ million hits, and it's obvious that "International Magician of The year" is a very small show. And as I said, there is not even a website for it. I cannot see how he is notable, sorry. Peter S. 23:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me point out that many of the claims in notability in the article are highly deceptive. It, for example, quotes Inside Magic as having called him all sorts of great things, but actually reading the source shows that the editor of that publication had never even heard of the guy and was simply quoting a student newspaper, one that may have gotten information wrong or simply quoted from a press release supplied by the guy himself. The article in Inside MAgic was polite, but questioned the qaccuracy of one of the claims that magician made (to having allegedly quitting a society that didn't admit women, when he knows several women in the society). This whole article stinks to high heaven. Google results on this guy are practically nonexistent. There is no evidence of this person having ever actually won an award other than third hand info and the guy's own self-promotion, and the award certainly is not very ntoable in the field.

We need more editors to take a look at it, as it looks like a combination of spam/hoax going on here. DreamGuy 23:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The guy seems like an indefatigable self-promoter, but he IS featured in an up-coming National Geographic television feature [14]. I don't think they would have featured him if he were a complete hoaxer. Just clean up the article and don't try to delete, OK? If he's going to be on TV, people are going to be looking for him on Wikipedia. So, let them get a straight look without hype. Zora 23:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• TV stations have been duped before, Zora. Your linked program is about refugees, he was portrayed as a refugee. There are 100+ Million refugees in the world, not every one of those needs a wikipedia page (although they need shelter, food, money, peace and justice restored). The article claims "He performs from bombay to las vegas and has appeared on National Geographic", which is clearly a misleading statement. As I said before, once you cut through all the promo language, you end up with a boring person that doesn't warrant an entry in the wikipedia. Those are my reasons for delete. Peter S. 23:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Any admin able to tune into this station and watch the program? Would come in helpful to settle the argument. Englishrose 23:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Aren't you convinced by reading the summary on that website? The description clearly doesn't state "Tonight appearing: Aladin, the great magician". It talks about refugees, and refugees only. Peter S. 23:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of everything else said above, I'm concerned about this issue because 30 hours after Peter S. listed this article on AfD, the discussion was closed as a "Speedy keep". Aren't we supposed to keep these debates open for seven days? Doing so would not harm the article (it's not going to be deleted until it gets a lot more votes for that). I just heard about this article, & I feel that this premature closure of the matter will only harm this discussion over the article, & lead to another listing on AfD almost immediately! -- llywrch 00:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

User:King of Hearts didn't have proper authority or reason to speedy keep it, so it was undone. He should have kis knuckles smacked. DreamGuy 01:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith here: everyone makes mistakes. No need to villify King of Hearts as long as he meant well & admits he acted hastily. -- llywrch 16:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• I looked through the AfD. A few people commenting are relative newcommers, that a closer might choose to disregard. I placed notes for the benefit of the eventuall closer. Most seem to be of at least several months standing here, with at least hundreds of edits, and some are respected long-term editors. I see no evidence of a sock-fest or of more improper comments than many AfDs generate. DES ^(talk) 06:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Please see section "Votestacking FAC sockpuppets: Hollow Wilerding" above for the abusive sockpuppeteering, deception, and misuse of

All kidding aside, I'm very surprised at the role User:Search4Lancer plays in this sad affair, not least on this page. I can't understand what's behind such silly/malicious behavior as the ruleslawyering "distinctions" here, the trolling here, and, especially, the endorsement of this RFC, in collaboration with a blocked user—essentially, encouraging her to use yet another block-evading sock account, and helping her conceal it from the community. Search4Lancer, what are you doing? Are you simply amusing yourself in your own way, or do you have an undisclosed relation to "Hollow Wilerding", or what gives? Bishonen | talk 04:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC).

Bishonen - I am very offended by you accusing me of trolling, and by calling my behaviour silly or malicious, and your suggestion of any relation to Miss Wilerding. Never did I encourage her to break the rules. If you would look at her talk page, you will see that I encouraged her NOT to break the rules. Search4Lancer 23:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Never did you encourage her to break the rules? You helped her break the rules. Or are you claiming you weren't aware that she was blocked when you supported and endorsed her so-called RFC on me—helping a blocked user evade her block, helping her create a frivolous and absurd RFC? Another question, from another angle: You're an established user. HW is obviously unrealistic and erratic in her notions of how wiki works, and of who her RFC would be embarrassing for. Couldn't you have told her what would happen? Didn't it occur to you to warn her against putting herself in the stocks like that, when she appealed to you to co-sign it? You must have had some idea what would happen. For your umbrage above: I'm by no means accusing you of any relation to HW. I'm only asking, because I would fain see some motive behind your incomprehensible behavior. I am accusing you of silliness and/or malice, yes. Trolling, too. Bishonen | talk 01:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC).

I helped her break the rules? I helped her evade her block? Now you're being the silly one. What, did I stand behind her chair, and guide her hands? Frivility and absurdity are in the eye of the beholder. Many of the things she did she did before I could advise her otherwise, so there's nothing that can really be said there. Furthermore, you state that my interest in common decency is 'rather unexpected:' my interest in common decency is why I've been here the whole time. Search4Lancer 02:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone got checkuser capability to help out with a persistent vandal targetting Australian related high profile articles? See

I suspect we have a new North Carolina vandal to watch out for. Will he attack Holden car-related articles next?? --Sunfazer 12:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting to note, the moment the Australian related vandalism stops, Willy on Wheels starts. Perhaps one and the same, or a copycat. -- Longhair 12:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The Australian-topic vandal is back for another round. Can we get a checkuser on all of his socks (just look in the block log)... obviously open proxies, we should be able to indef block a bunch of these, nice of him to reveal them for us. -- Curps 06:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

There has been a revert war on the User Bill Of Rights, apparently by Benjamin Gatti and SEWilco on one side, and 172 and Nandesuka on the other. I've protected this page in the version before the reverts started, which is obviously m:the wrong version. I have made a few edits to that page (which were reverted along with the rest of it), which some may see as involvement, so I'm posting a note here. Radiant_>|< 18:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a

lame edit war to me. --Ryan Delaney ^talk

19:42, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I've given up reverting this. I need to get back to actual editing of things that matter. If it will make SEWilco and Benjamin Gatti feel happy to have "proposed" on a page that has been massively rejected, it's no skin off of my back. Nandesuka 19:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I have suspected that Almeidaisgod (t c) and Flavius Aetius (t c) is a sock puppet of Brian Brockmeyer (t c) and used for revert wars.

Evidence I gathered can be found here [16].

I asked for a checkuser already and it's a match.--Ichiro 18:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I just received this message regarding the deletion debate of