Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive132

14:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm on it. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 19:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone else got there first. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 19:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What was the upshot? ++Lar: t/c 20:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Any news? Durova 16:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been two days now. Could I please have some sort of response or update? At least the username of the investigating administrator? Durova 14:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I may have mistakenly assumed that Netsnipe was on the case [2] [3] was watching these users. I also erred in thinking Netsnipe was an admin. However, none of the three users have been active since 27 August, which was when Netsnipe issued his note of advice to Durova [4] and advised a checkuser. The users have been warned for their transgressions. There is no rationale for action if things remain calm - maybe someone can give a second opinion on whether a checkuser is still advisable. Otherwise, let us know if any other new users in your neighbourhood become disruptive. If this is a case of someone playing games, they're likely to try to change their cloak regularly. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 17:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/AWilliamson. You should have really mentioned this. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 18:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me for the lapse. I've never been involved in anything like this before and didn't know I ought to report that here. Durova 13:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I wish to file a complaint against InShaneee for abusing his administrative authority. Under the guise of removing "personal attacks," InShanee has deleted comments he disagrees with which are not at all personal attacks. For example, one of the edits he deleted was my argument in support of another administrator, Bishonen: [5] He also removed another section further down that is critical of one of the goals of the Wikiproject Paranormal - the Wikiproject that he appears to run. My comments are directed against the sources that some Wikiproject Paranormal members insist on using for the Natasha Demkina article. Apparently, he's taking this criticism personally and is calling it a "personal attack" so that he can remove it under his authority as an administrator (and threaten me with a block if I revert it - see additional comment below).

Another editor and an administrator has joined in my objection to InShanee's actions: [6] [7] I hope other editors and administrators will also tell him that he should not abuse his administrative authority and that censorship is not a practice welcomed in Wikipedia. If his abuse of authority continues, that authority should be rescinded. Askolnick 20:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see where you're saying he used the admin tools in doing any of this. Well, unless rollback counts, but that's just a shortcut for something anyone can do. Friday (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This is about an admin who removes legitimate arguments/comments and labels the comments as a "personal attack" in order to censor this user. If this user reverts this admin's edits, I'm quite certain he will be blocked by this admin. This is unacceptable behavior for an admin, and I have seen so many complaints against Inshaneee that a desysop should be considered.

Complaints of abuse are normally signs that an admin is doing his job right, but yeah, I can't see how it constitutes as a personal attack, but it wasn't an administrative action; as Friday said, rollback is just a shortcut.

in the dead of night

) 20:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Rollback is only supposed to be used in the case of vandalism; let's get that straight right out of the gate. That particular edit probably should have been trimmed by hand, and by preference commented on rather than excised. -- nae'blis 21:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There is some consensus on that, but it is not universal, and it is not policy. Generally though, the arbcom does frown upon it. Still, it is not as cut-and-dried as you state. FeloniousMonk 22:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, two administrators, User:Friday and User:Sceptre, are unaware of the fact that rollback is an admin-only feature that is supposed to be used only in cases of obvious vandalism? Dionyseus 21:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that people frequently say that about it, yes. Friday (talk) 21:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is that supposition documented? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Make that three administrators. Rollback is supposed to be used only in the case of vandalism. Dionyseus 22:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Which is neither policy nor even a guideline. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The link you reference above says this:"If you use the rollback feature for anything other than vandalism or for reverting yourself, be sure to leave an explanation...". DJ Clayworth 22:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also stated here:

Do not use one-click rollback on edits that are not simple vandalism; please use manual rollback with an appropriate edit summary. Mike Christie (talk)

22:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Nor is that policy or guideline, but an essay. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

What the hell? That's not an essay. Where's the {{

Wikipedia:Editing is. Is that now an essay as well? Also, if that's enough, I point to the MarkSweep, Gunaco arbitration case, a rollback revert war that led to Gunaco's desysopping, with MarkSweep "strongly cautioned to use the administrator's rollback tool only when reverting vandalism." Hbdragon88

22:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it labeled guideline? Is it labeled policy? Did the arbcom say that their caution applied to all admins or was it specific to one in one particular case? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's a matter of community consensus, therefore your insistence on a formally stated "policy" is a bit misguided. As for Arbcom's take on the issue, it seem pretty clear, it's been stated in numerous arbcom cases. ([8]). Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

As is clear from this page, no such consensus exists. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The policy that matters here, IMO, is WP:CIVIL; reverting non-vandalism edits with rollback is potentially uncivil since you are not explaining yourself. (Personal opinion; no AC consensus implied) Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 04:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Is naything from the RFAR ever labeled as strict, by the rules, policy? (besides user punishments and probation). You just have to infer. Obviously the rampant misuse of the rollback, especially in a revert war, was strong enough that the ArbCom had to say something about it. And in this case, they said only vandalism. I think that applies to all admins, but if you disagree, Ic ould ask the ArbCom for clarification. Hbdragon88 23:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Dionyseus, the edit summary of the second and third reverts clearly mention disruption. Instead of using the typical anti-admin one liners, "

Voice-of-All

22:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I left out the part about his threats to block me if I reverted his changes - or made any similar comments like those again. That's abuse of administrative power. IhShaneee appears to believe that he can use his blocking power to stiffle arguments he dislikes. Askolnick 21:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Bishonen. I don't see anything here obviously crappy enough to use rollback on, unless there is something I missed.

Voice-of-All

21:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, it appears that User:InShaneee is placing unwarranted blocking threats on Askolnick's talk page. [9] [10] Dionyseus 21:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment of an outsider: InShaneee left a warning for "No Personal Attacks" and threatening a block, pretty much immediately before this note was left of AN/I. Askolnick is not helping the situation by pretty much continuuing a verbal assualt on InShaneee on Askolnick's own talk page. While InShaneee is focusing also on other things (Unblock declining, I noticed), Askolnick is still focusing on the conflict (Hence this discussion). I have the odd feeling that this inter-editor conflict is just going to escalate if both editors remain "Unrestrained".

The first dif I see is sort of unwarranted, since removing even completely idiotic things (Like bots reverting past your revert of vandalism giving YOU a warning) from talk pages is met with (6.5 times out of 10) with a warning on not removing comments or blanking.

This has obviously escalated too fast and too far. Both editors likely fall under Wikipedia's blocking policy for disruption of this Wiki. It needs to be made clear that catfights shouldn't be tolerated. Logical2u 22:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

While Inshaneee was justified in removing some of the many Pravda.ru links (really, you could have made your point with much more brevity, or created a subpage in userspace to link to), the majority of Inshaneee's rollback was inappropriate, and the blocking threats seem questionable. While rollback can occasionally be used for edits that are not vandalism (occasionally

22:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've at times both admired and found reason to criticize in InShaneee's firmness in enforcing his view of the NPA rule. In this instance, my impression is he's overstepped a line, both in the initial revert and in the way his subsequent warnings and counterwarnings have escalated the situation. I'd say an RfC might be in order. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

My involvement with the Demkina article has been off and on for several months (it began with my admittedly bungled first attempt at a MedCab mediation). I have found that Mr. Skolnick quite often steps over the line of civility in his discussion contributions and edit summaries, and has been repeatedly guilty of personally attacking and/or insulting fellow editors, taunting, harrassing editors on their user talk pages, and making assumptions of bad faith. This is just a sample of some of the violations of

, in my limited capacity as an editor.

I do not believe InShaneee's reverts are entirely without justification, as Mr. Skolnick is implying here that Dreadlocke and InShaneee are aligning themselves with "pseudoscientists, psychics, quacks, and other New Age charlatans," and is also implying that they are acting in bad faith. If I recall correctly, reversion of personal attacks is an option for dealing with them, though a controversial one. I don't think this edit rises to the level where reversion is necessary, but I can see why InShaneee would see this as a personal attack and would revert it. I do agree that this reversion was not justified. Skolnick is attacking Demkina's mother's credibility, but not another editor. I have no opinion on the specific method InShaneee used to revert ("rollback," the existence of which I am only newly aware).

Though I do not necessarily agree with InShaneee's recent reversions, I do believe that s/he has acted in good faith, and that, given Skolnick's long history of personal attacks and incivility, a warning from an administrator is long overdue, and will perhaps be heeded where mere editors' warnings have not. At worst, I think InShaneee's warnings were the right action at the wrong time.

04:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Rohirok, you are ignoring the fact that InShaneee repeatedly threatened to block me if I reverted his improper deletion of my comments.[11] That is an abuse of his administrative authority. Administrators are not allowed to use their blocking power to threaten and intimidate editors who they disagree with. Not a single editor or administrator has supported InShaneee's claim that he removed a "personal attack." The speech he removed was speech he objects to. He then threatened to block me if I put it back. That clearly an abuse of the authority granted to him by the Wiki community. In light of the comments from other editors and administrators who say the speech he removed was not a personal attack, he has modified his reason for removing it (and threatening to block me if I restored it). He now says he removed "disrepectful" speech.[12] I believe InShaneee is further abusing his administrative powers when he stretches those powers to include blocking editors for speech he finds "disrespectful."

Nearly a century ago, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wisely observed that the best remedy for improper speech is more speech, not censorship. Wiki administrators should uphold that philosophy. Those who don't should not be a Wiki administrator. Askolnick 16:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

:I just noticed that Rohirok has misrepresented my complaint by using a link to only part of the material InShaneee deleted, under the guise that it was a personal attack. Here is the one of my statements InShanee deleted and threatened to block me if I restored it:[13]

Bishonen is on solid ground in her objection to including Natasha's mother's claims that contradict the widely held views of child psychologists and pediatricians. She is also correct about Wikipedia guidelines that warn against including such dubious information without compelling support: "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence" and among those are "claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community."[71]

In opposition to the prevailing view of the relevant academic community of child psychologists and pediatricians, we have the claims of Natasha's mother - who has already received great profit through the promotion of her daughter as a miracle worker - and who made the clearly false statement her daughter has never ever made a false diagnosis, even though the record shows many of Demkina's diagnoses are false.

Clearly, Demkina's mother has publicly spoken falsely about her daughter's abilities. And her motive for doing so is not just a mother's pride. She and her daughter have already enjoyed great income from Demkina's readings (earning up to 40 times the average government worker's income in Saransk, with her part-time, after-school "job." [72] And she and Demkina stand to reap even greater wealth by convincing people that her daughter's diagnoses are 100 percent correct. Such exceptional, self-serving, and profiteering claims do not constitute exceptional evidence. They are far more consistant with the trumpeting of a quack. Wikipedia is not a medium to be used by quacks to promote themselves. That is why Wikipedia has guidelines concerning reputable sources - such as the one that directs editors to ignore exceptional claims that contradict prevailing views of the relevant academic community in the absence of exceptional evidence. Bishonen is absolutely right. Such self-serving and highly dubious claims do not belong in Wikipedia without compelling support from reputable sources.

I added this comment in support of administrator Bishonen's statement. Disagreeing with it, InShanee falsely called it a personal attack and deleted it. I challenge Rohirok or InShaneee to explain here how that text in any way may be forcefully removed under Wiki's No Personal Attack rule. Askolnick 17:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I struck out the incorrect statements above and I apologize to Rohirok. He brought to my attention that he had indeed mentioned the deletion of this part and that he agreed it was inappropriately removed by InShaneee. It was in a second link that I overlooked. Sorry Rohirok and thanks for bringing this to my attention. Askolnick 03:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Another thing I think is unacceptable for a Wiki administrator is to use his authority in a biased manner. Under the pretense that he was removing a personal attack, InShaneee deleted my criticism of the Wikiproject Paranormal, which he appears to be running. Yet, he is allowing one member there to repeatedly post incenderary personal attacks against editors skeptical of paranormal claims, such as these:[14]

• "Are the psuedo-Christians up to censorship, again? Andrew Homer 01:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)"

• "In your first day in Cultural Antropology class, your professor will inform you about oral traditions. Andrew Homer 10:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)"

And on the Wikiproject page itself:[15]

• "The under informed are doing their censorship and harrassment, again (as they continually do in the Astrology article). So, that's why I'm replacing valid material that the psuedo-Christians and the psuedo-academics keep deleting:"

At the risk of sounding like a "pseudo-Christian," InShaneee should remove the log from his own eye before poking his finger in the eyes of others. Leaving his fellow Wikiproject member's personal attacks alone, InShaneee removed my criticism of the Wikiproject and threatened to block me if I restored what he wrongly called a "personal attack." This is biased and inappropriate conduct, which should not be tolerated in any Wiki administrator. Askolnick 18:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank InShanee for taking action against User:Askolnick who is an abusive, harassing and threatening editor that engages in a constant stream of personal attacks, uncivil and disruptive behavior. Askolnick has used the Pravda.RU debate as a weapon to attack and harass other editors on their own talk pages, [16], [17] repeating the attack on Rohirok on Askolnick’s own talk page [18] and on the Natasha Demkina discussion page.

Askolnick has repeatedly posted reams of headlines and attack material against the use of the tabloid, completely unnecessary when his point was made in the first such posting – much less the fifth, six, or tenth postings of repetitive material – purely disruptive behavior, meant only to harass [19] his opponents: [20], [21], [22], [23], [24] (there are more).

Instead of any RfC on InShanee, who acted in good faith and with just cause in his warnings to Askolnick, we should have a user conduct RfC on Askolnick, who has long engaged in personal attacks on other editors, even after friend and foe alike have warned him against this type of behavior. [25], [26], [27], [28], [29].

He attacked and insulted [30] a new Wikipedia editor, Brian Josephson, a Nobel laureate and distinguished scientist who has his own Wikipedia article: Brian Josephson.

Askolnick has engaged in a continual stream of personal attacks, commenting on the contributors and not the content, apparently in an attempt to discredit and marginalize those that disagree with him: Here is just a small sample of Askolnick's personal attacks, there are many more: [31], [32],[33], [34], [35],[36]

He has unapologetically pushed forward with his attacks, apparently viewing himself as some type of crusader whose job it is to “drive stakes” into the hearts of his opponents. Not very Wikipedia-like behavior.

Thank you InShanee for recognizing and taking action on the abusive editing by Askolnick. More needs to be done to stop the abuse by Askolnick. Dreadlocke ☥ 21:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Rather than explaining to us why he thinks InShaneee's deletions were proper and not censorship, or why InShaneee's threats to block me if I restored what was wrongly deleted is NOT an abuse of InShaneee's administrative authority, Dreadlocke has launched a long string of personal attacks, none of which is relevant to the complaint against InShaneee. If all of Dreadlocke's accusations and insults were true and I were the spawn of Satan, it still would not justify InShaneee's act of censorship and abuse of his administrative authorities. Apparently Dreadlocke believes a bad offense is more effective than a good defense. Askolnick 03:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

One question, and correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Askolnick’s posts above [37] and [38] attacking Natasha’s mother violate

WP:BLP#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_negative_material? Dreadlocke ☥

23:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Bishonen | talk 23:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC).

Consider yourself corrected. Askolnick 03:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Having spent a lot of time today reviewing the history of all this, I totally understand why Askolnick may feel frustrated at the tactics of some editors who have attempted to "take every point", as lawyers put it, however lacking in merit - i.e., require him to prove every little thing that should not even be controversial. On the other hand, he does seem to find it difficult to avoid attacking the good faith of opponents. There is obviously some off-wiki baggage here, but we do expect editors to leave such baggage behind, at least in what they say (we can't try to control what they merely think).

As for the specific material deleted by User:InShaneee, I think most of the material was acceptable, but a small amount of it consisted of unnecessary speculation about the dishonest motives of other editors. I think InShaneee was right to insist that that component of the material remain deleted, but not to insist that all the material remain deleted. To that extent, InShanee overstepped the bounds, IMHO, but not in a way that shows bad faith or requires some sort of investigation.

If my view prevailed, I would allow Askolnick to restore the material in a form that does not cast aspersions on the motives of anyone here. In particular, it should not contain claims to the effect that editors have dishonest ulterior motives in wanting to use particular low-repute publications as sources. It is sufficient to attack the repute of the publications themselves without speculating about the motives of other editors. If the material is restored in that modified form, which probably requires the deletion of only a small number of sentences and phrases, I would, with all respect to InShanee, be opposed to any block and be minded to undo it (but not without due discussion etc.; I'm not into wheel-warring).

I also respectfully suggest to Askolnick that he should, in future, continue to argue his position in a robust way, but without straying into incivility or personal attacks by speculating about other editors' seemingly (to him) dishonest motives. I'm sure that most of his arguments could be put forcefully and persuasively without that current running through them, however much he may feel tempted to include it. In fact, that current really seems to detract from the force of the arguments, by tending to put the focus on personalities. It also makes it difficult for administrators who might have some sympathy for the position that Askolnick finds himself in, but who are also under an obligation to keep order and stop debates from getting personal.

I welcome any views on the above comments. Metamagician3000 10:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Cretanpride (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been POV-pushing at Homosexuality in ancient Greece (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and related pages for a while now, including a bad-faith AfD, and the use of several sockpuppets.

I became involved in the matter on August 24 when I noticed a 3RR violation, and I subsequently tried to address the user's concerns in the article and on its talk page. (I think I had edited the page once or twice before in a fairly insignificant way.) I ended up contributing a fairly major rewrite/expansion of the article yesterday, because although I believe Cretanpride's position was academically unsupported, the article provided insufficient context and might be misread by someone with an insufficient understanding of the subject.

Cretanpride's most recent sockpuppet account is Ellinas (

) blocked Cretanpride for 48 hours after Ellinas was confirmed as a sockpuppet. I'd appreciate it if an uninvolved admin could take a look at this situation and see whether a longer block is warranted. I don't really trust my own judgment in this case, in part because I've become an editor of the article and in part because I was fooled by the Ellinas sockpuppet, who I took at face value.

Aside from one suspect edit and one good-faith contribution from the Ellinas account, Cretanpride hasn't edited the Homosexuality in ancient Greece article since his 3RR block. I think the real issue is that Cretanpride has exhausted the patience of the article's regular contributors (see Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Greece). I'd appreciate any feedback on the matter. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, an anon identifying himself as User:Ellinas has now reiterated on User talk:Aldux that he is only a personal acquaintance, not a sockpuppet, of User:Cretanpride, but that he let Cretanpride use his computer to subvert the block on Cretanpride's IP ([39]). Which might plausibly explain the positive Checkuser evidence but the slightly different personal styles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, allowing the friend to use your computer is absolutely a no-no. First, it's the story usually told by people with abusive sockpuppets. Second, that makes the donor as guilty of block evasion as the recipient. Third, no single account is supposed to be multi-user. Geogre 11:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Even if Ellinas and Cretanpride are different people (which I personally doubt), Ellinas meets the definition of a

meatpuppet--he has only contributed to the pages that Cretanpride did, and he said that he started an account at the invitation of Cretanpride. --Akhilleus (talk

) 14:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

True enough. To Geogre: I think he said he let the other guy use his computer (hence positive IP identification per checkuser), not his account. But you're right about the aiding-and-abetting-block-evasion issue, of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The question I suppose we should ask ourselves is whether the Ellinas account should be treated differently if it is a meatpuppet or a sockpuppet. If Ellinas is a different individual (and therefore a meatpuppet), he is guilty only of helping his friend evade the block. Right now, Cretanpride is under a 48-hour block and Ellinas is blocked indefinitely. If Ellinas is a meatpuppet rather than a sockpuppet, I'd say that was backwards. Allowing Cretanpride to use his computer to evade his block is a no-no, but Ellinas probably didn't know that, and doesn't deserve to be indefinitely blocked for it. Cretanpride, on the other hand, had had the sockpuppet policy explained to him on several occasions, and should have known better. Would anyone object if I unblocked Ellinas and indefinitely blocked Cretanpride? Even if Ellinas is a sockpuppet rather than a meatpuppet, that account has been much better behaved than the Cretanpride account, and the individual behind it might take this as an opportunity to reform. Or am I being too generous? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:SOCK says: "Neither a sock puppet nor a single-purpose account holder is regarded as a member of the Wikipedia community. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that, for the purpose of dispute resolution, when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one individual." Checkuser found that Ellinas is a sockpuppet; even if this is mistaken (and I doubt that it's a mistake), Ellinas is a single-purpose account. If Ellinas is unblocked, that would be more generous than the stated policy. --Akhilleus (talk

) 16:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose what I'm suggesting is an application of

WP:AGF. If Ellinas were unblocked, I would act as a mentor for that account. And I do think that a longer, if not indefinite, block of Cretanpride would be helpful and appropriate, given the extensive history of sockpuppetry. Put it this way: would you rather deal with Ellinas or Cretanpride on the article? As things stand now, Cretanpride will be returning in less than a day. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs

) 17:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but all this assumes that Ellinas is really not a sock of Cretanpride. Personally I find no good reason to believe him, principally because, as, Gerge said, it's the story usually told by people with abusive sockpuppets. Also remember Cretanpride's previous record, confirmed also by checkuser; Cretanpride is habitual to sockpuppetry, and Ellinas is only the last of them. He is only quite habitual to not telling the truth: consider

WP:AGF, it is of no value for socks, and it shouldn't be extended in such an unreasonable way. As for Cretanpride, if no one objects, I will extend his block for a new block evasion, [40], the edits mentioned by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise.--Aldux

18:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I support Josiah Rowe on mentoring Ellinas, in the spirit of assuming good faith. One of three things will happen.

1. Ellinas is a separate person, continues to be a good contributor, and doesn't make this mistake again.
2. Ellinas is a sock, but Cretan takes the opportunity to moderate his tone and editing style.
3. Ellinas is a sock, picks up where Cretan left off, and gets swiftly blocked by Josiah Rowe.

The third case is essentially the same result as no action at this point, and the first two cases help the encyclopedia. Where's the harm? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, MIB. That's a useful and accurate summary. I assure everyone that if the Ellinas account does act up in any way (excepting today's edits from 4.245.120.147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) I'll block it quickly. But I won't unblock Ellinas unless another admin supports it (right now it's one for and one against). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellinas (posting as User:4.245.121.227) has indicated on Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Greece#One_last_message that he's not interested in having the ban lifted. Perhaps matters should stand as they are; Cretanpride may come back once his block expires, or perhaps he won't. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm really sorry of having to disagree in this occasion Josiah, because I greatly appreciate and admire your work, but I have learned in editing on balcan-topics that good faith should not always be assumed at all costs, when good sense tells, at least to me, exactly the opposite. When a brand new editor emerges exactly on the same day his spiritual brother has been blocked, and interrupts his edits exactly when the block expires, my knowledge of sockpuppetry tells me that the probabilities of the new account being a sock are very, very high. Dozens of socks, even when ascertained by checkuser, have continued to cry me "no, no, I'm not a sock, you're wrong". I've simply heard these stories too many times. Cretanpride has another chance, if he wants to use it; but lets not hide ourselves behind a phantomatic "good user" Ellinas.--Aldux 00:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well. I'm still agnostic over whether Cretanpride and Ellinas were one person or two, but given the tone of Ellinas' last posting I suppose the question is moot. The manner of Cretanpride's behavior upon his return should indicate something: as Kurt Vonnegut said, "We are who we pretend to be," so if Ellinas was a sockpuppet, then for a few days Cretanpride was a fairly respectful and civil user who showed the potential for becoming a useful Wikipedian, because that's who he was pretending to be as Ellinas. If he could do it then, he can do it upon his return. If, on the other hand, Ellinas was a different individual, then we can expect Cretanpride to be as abusive and abrasive as he was before he was blocked, possibly more so because he will have the "unjust block of his friend" to stoke his fires. (We will also, incidentally, have turned a potentially positive contributor into someone bitter and angry about Wikipedia's lack of openness, but I suppose that's a risk we take in making the "meat=sock" equation.)

It's true that I haven't had extensive experience of sockpuppetry, but I'm a little bit concerned that this time the boy crying "wolf" may be doing so because there really is one. But I won't go against the apparent consensus of my fellow Wikipedians. I suppose we'll just have to see what comes next. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[[41]] The most egregious action on Barefact's part --- that I have seen, were his false accusations of sock-puppetry against me, and two users[[42]] and [[43]] , for which he had no evidence. I would consider that an attempt to

.

He even tried to use his false accusation of sock-puppetry(unproven and untrue) to reinstate a POV article of his [[44]] by saying that it was deleted by sock-puppetry. This is a clear example of lying and deception.

One of his former articles was deleted because of OR [[45]].

Even after an RFIC in Scythians he removed all reference to Scythians being Iranian recently.

The user

].

Finally there is the admittance of the vandalizing user himself from his own webpage: The following discourse addresses the reasons for the current universal acceptance by the scientific community of the preposition that the Scythians were unambiguously Indo-European, and specifically Iranian speaking, and the methods to reach this conclusion. [[49]] (note the link above is connected www.turkicworld.org and is written by this user per his own admission). Note the user believes that he can go against universal acceptance of scholarly facts in Wikipedia. I have warned him numerous times about [[50]] but with no success. He clearly admits he is going against universal accepted position of scientific community and wants to put his cooked up theories instead of accepting the universal judgment of relavent scholars of the field. --Ali doostzadeh 00:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

While I share your concerns about Barefact's disruptive behaviour, I believe you'd better resolve the issue using traditional Wikipedia procedues, such as

WP:RFAr --Ghirla ^-трёп-

18:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but with did an RFC on Scythians and the user still persits in ruining the entery. Also in scythia he broke the 3rr rule (actually 6 revisions within the past 24 hours). He is also making another false accusation of false suck-puppetery [51] (which is the 4th or 5th false accusation). I have reported him for the 3RR violation here: [52]. One of my other concerns is that his site is all POV and lacks scholarly caliber and yet he insists on cut & pasting materials from his site onto wikipedia. --alidoostzadeh 02:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like RadioKirk is out and about abusing his admin powers again. If you look on his talk page history and block log, you will see that after Raptor30V1 left him a labor day greeting, he deleted the greeting and blocked Raptor30V1. It seems unimagionable that an Admin would block a user (newbe mind you) just because he does not celebrate labor day, but that seems to be the cas with Kirk. Nanook the Husky 20:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• User was blocked as a sockpuppet of a banned user, see [53] so the block is legitimate.
  exolon
  20:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Notice this "signed" remark by User:Nanook the Husky actually comes from 216.164.203.122 (talk · contribs); 216.164.203.90 (talk · contribs) was blocked as a massive sock farm per WP:RFCU. Also note this edit during this time by User:TheFerick—User:Nookdog (another of this user's aliases) recently claimed to be User:Ferick resulting in an inadvertent block on my part. This user is a troublemaker of the worst sort, and this ip range needs to be checked for collteral and dealt with. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me begin by saying, "THE HORROR THE HORROR" this so called "RadioKirk" needs to be permabanned NOW, ASAP! His atrocities continue and continue.....how long will we let this vicious cycle go on. Good 'ol' My Name 20:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL This user got caught, got checkuser'ed, got pissed, got a new IP and is now trying to "get even". It's time to get a life, Rappy. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Another one bites the dust. :) Metamagician3000 14:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Last night, it came to my attention through RC patrolling that Challenge of the GoBots had been vandalized and moved by GoGoGobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This vandalism extended to vandalizing the image used in the article, and having moved the page a total of six times and vandalizing the image in the article four times. GIen had blocked the user for 31 hours, and this user had come off of a 24 hour block a few days ago. I believe that this user's block should be extended to an indefinite block due to the nature of the vandalism and to the extent that page protection had to be performed. Ryūlóng 22:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The user should have been indefinite blocked from the start - indefinite blocked now.

Cowman109^Talk

22:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; now if there were only some way to fix the image's history. There's no need for a photo of a K-Mart in there, nor for the empty pages where Challenge of the GoBots was moved to, either.. Ryūlóng 22:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The empty pages were already deleted, and which image is this you're talking about?

Cowman109^Talk

23:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I mean {{deletedpage}} the pages moved to and the image in the infobox needs history fixing. So much vandalism to that one image. Ryūlóng 06:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that User:Taurus876 created dozens upon dozens of coin articles, most of which contain the same exact content.

A few hours ago, another user requested Taurus876 to add intro paragraphs to his coin articles or else they'd fall under

.

However, in the last 15 minutes, he has just bombarded Wikipedia with nearly 30 coin-related articles, all of which contain the same exact material.

It seems to me that he's just mass-spamming, and not providing proper info on each article.

--Nishkid64 00:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Omg coincruft. The first articles he created are legitimate, but the ones created today are indeed exact duplicates. I've blocked him to stop the behaviour, and will request that he make those articles legitimate. pschemp | talk 00:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It would also seem that he is copying his articles word for word from the US Mint site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish_Trail_half_dollar

http://www.usmint.gov/kids/index.cfm?fileContents=coinNews/cotm/2001/08.cfm Bobby 15:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

01:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hasn't vandalized since last warning. List empty. (Go to

masterka

02:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

University of Health Sciences Antigua UHSA

I would like to point out that I am making available, valid information, on the UHSA page; but a certain poster continues to use "finger-thocracy" to decide what is and what is not "wiki-worthy". The links I have contributed are for the most part from State websites that hold legitimate information that is in the public domain, none of the links are "rabbit-outta-the-hat" types.

Thank you. Robo doc 03:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Robo doc has nothing meaningful to contribute. He is copying and pasting links and copyrighted material into my article from other websites only to publicize 3rd party websites filled with ads. I’m surprised to see he is asking for your help. Notice, he recently registered his ID for the sole purpose of posting his nasty remarks and links in the UHSA article.

Thank You again,

DrGladwin

Responding on editor's talk page.

masterka

03:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Public computer?

06:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What really set me off about this IP is the fact that at any AFDs, it uses really odd edit summaries. Ryūlóng 06:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Just like we don't ban the vast majority of other public IPs (schools, libraries, etc.) I don't see why this warrants a ban, unless it is an open proxy. Just keep a curious eye on it. :-) Others will probably know more about this than I do though.

masterka

09:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Zayre's Killers a sock of MascotGuy?

(Note: Moved from AIAV)

• Zayre's Killers (
  talk · contribs) Sockpuppet --Ryūlóng
  05:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  Can you provide more information here? Perhaps add a note onto the talk of an admin who's more familiar with the situation? As it stands, there's not enough information for me (or for another admin unfamiliar with this user/puppet) to do anything. --Nlu (talk) 05:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  No edit summaries; interest in Wal-Mart; interest in animation; interest in large retailers. More at the LTA page I've listed. Ryūlóng 05:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  MascotGuy is a doppelganger account.

  Wikipedia:Long term abuse/MascotGuy is where you want to look. Ryūlóng

  05:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  I still don't feel comfortable enough blocking, as someone who's not familiar with MascotGuy. I won't complain if another admin does, but perhaps submit it to

  WP:RCU? --Nlu (talk

  ) 05:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do at RFCU about this user because it's been done and he utilizes whatever computer he is next to. Ryūlóng 05:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  Yep, it's him. I'm not massively familiar with this particular sockpuppeteer, but comparing his edits, those of his most recent sockpuppets, and the characteristics listed on the LTA page, it's pretty obvious. Blocked. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  enjoy using the LTA page while you can, Doc Glasgow is proposing to delete them all. pschemp | talk 13:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

07:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been blocked. It looks like an unfair block to me, as far as I can see he's been removing a couple of small sections from an article that he has been editing for weeks. I see no large scale blanking at all. I'm going to assume these has been some technical problem where he appears to be blanking but isn't and undo the block. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to urge my fellow admins to think before blocking, and everyone to think before accusing someone of vandalising. How likely is it that someone who has been adding info to an article for weeks would vandalise it? I hope we haven't scared away a good editor here. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, he is adding info to the article, but his latest additions are a duplication of one of the top sections and this one is placed beneath the refs and the see also and all of that. I know that he's contributing, but he's affecting the article adversely as well, and we have not been able to contact him through his talk page. Ryūlóng 20:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Filed a mediation request at

08:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Shadow_Magi

Saw this on AIAV:

• Shadow_Magi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - aren't public accounts forbidden? because this seems to be (see user page) --Andeh 10:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked the account and left an appropriate message on the Talk page. Might be worth keeping an eye on them in case anything productive can be salvaged. The Land 14:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I created a simple page on the life of French Climber who died in 1995. When I try to move it into production I am told that I am not logged in. Even after I log in the message is the same. This is my first contribution so I a bit confused by the procedure? Thanks, CCC - [email protected]

Benoît Chamoux seems to be "in production". You seem to be signed in as User:Cclauss. Have you tried clearing your browser cache, by either holding down the Shift key as you press Reload, or closing and reopening your browser? AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been blocking reincarnations of the

does not apply to reverts of banned users.)

Is it appropriate to indefinitely block all of the IPs that Leyasu uses? He seems to be on a dynamic IP, but the IPs he uses have no other contributions. Also, I'd really like some other admins to start watching him; I don't have enough time to do it all day. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

He uses British Telecom, so indef blocking is out. You're probably stuck with 24 hours, and should probably only block anons and account creation. I'm also looking into the report at

Thatcher131 (talk)

19:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone claiming to be w:RadioKirk is currentally causing mass vandalism on Wikiversity. We need an admin there, and w:RadioKirk needs to be blocked or explain who this is. Mr. Professor 19:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd be willing to bet that that guy's an impostor. I'd agree that Wikiversity user RadioKirk needs to be blocked, but I doubt that Wikipedian RadioKirk has anything to do with it, so you should probably ask a Wikiverstiy admin for help. -- Vary | Talk 19:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Sir, you seem to disregard the sevarity of the vandalisimg preformed by this so called "RadioKirk." You need to have an admin end his massive cross wiki "trolling" project, once and for all. I highly suspect that he is the mastermind behind the Rappy, Nookdog, and MyName vandals, as they always seem to be picking on him. He needs to be checkusered against them, and as an admin it is his obligation to do so. OUT Mr. Professor 19:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is very likely an imposter. There has been, apparently, no attempt to take action on Wikiversity. I don't see why the proper avenues on Wikiversity were not pursued before throwing around allegations here against an editor in very good standing. The chances of this being an imposter trying to cause trouble for User:RadioKirk are high. I see no evidence to suspect RadioKirk is involved in those cases, and indeed am surprised that a Wikiveristy user with no record on Wikipedia has such an intimate knowledge of an old vandal case as you do. Gwernol 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The real RadioKirk has always been a very Wiki-dedicated and by-the-rules kind of guy - there's no way this could be him. wikipediatrix 20:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have requested that my fellow Wikiversity editors come to this page to aid in the investigation. They should be here shortly. Mr. Professor 20:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello. You requested my imput: This RadioKirk is causing mayhem on Wikiversity. I'm not sure weather ot not he is the same as w:RadioKirk. However, w:RadioKirk's imput on this conversation would be appricated, and from there we can decide for or against a checkuser. The Great Teacher 20:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoever registered as RobertKirk on Wikiversity has been blocked and his vandalism reverted. This was done within minutes of the actual vandalism occurring. It's policy at Wikiversity to delete user and talk pages of infinitely blocked users. sebmol 20:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This checkuser would like to ask that Mr. Professor/The Great Teacher/Uncle Eff pick one account and stick with it. Mackensen (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI: Mr. Professor has no significant edit history on Wikiversity prior to this incident. This appears more like a trap for RadioKirk than a genuine complaint to me. sebmol 20:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This thread is trolling. Ten to one the trolls here are the same as the vandal on Wikiversity. Antandrus (talk) 20:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I remember a similar incident on Wikinews when an imposter registered "RadioKirk". It did vandalism, was blocked, then the account was transferred to RadioKirk. —

20:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Radio Kirk, what side are you on? You can say what you want, but only Checkuser can prove it. Mr. Professor 20:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I just blocked Mr. Professor indef here as an obvious harrasser of RadioKirk, and also seeing that he was also blocked indef in wikiversity.

^{wat's sup}

20:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Accounts all created within minutes of each other (notice my impostor on Wikiversity was created two minutes [!] before Mr. Professor and 31 minutes before The Great Teacher were created here) on perhaps the only remaining Wiki I hadn't joined yet. Also check my talk page history; with no question whatsoever, this is Raptor30/Rappy30/Nanook/Nookdog/etc./etc./etc. (read up to "No block reason" on this page). I can think of nothing more sad than a determined vandal who gets pissed because I (and others) stopped him, and who is now wasting his life in an effort to "get revenge" (again, read my talk page history). Sad indeed... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it awesome when you're hated enough that submorons will go through all this trouble just to get you blocked? --Golbez 22:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's almost flattering.

masterka

23:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Emphasis on the "almost" ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 23:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

please see recent contributions by these people

• 59.11.45.141 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 58.151.21.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 59.29.252.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 61.39.35.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 203.187.16.218 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

they look like spam proxies to me so please ban indefinitely if so Yuckfoo 19:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

also many more are popping up so it could be best to block the url domain too Yuckfoo 19:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We can't range block. We could add the website to the spam blacklist but I can't recall how to do it. Watch and revert. I'll block the above 4 but I figure a temp block sufficient. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)+

ask mackensen or someone else to permanently block if they are proxies Yuckfoo 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Open proxies should be indef-banned. I have listed one of these at

WP:OP. I'll check the others when I have a chance, but they should also be listed there and indef-blocked. -- zzuuzz ^(talk)

20:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Prove to me that they are open proxies and I'm happy to block them myself. In the meantime I've blocked them all for a month. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 20:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've listed them all at

WP:OP. Maybe try [54]. My reply wasn't really directed at you - it was part edit-conflict. -- zzuuzz ^(talk)

20:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Suspicions of libel

While the "other notorious elephant" page was listed as a hoax, I ran across something on the talk page that I suspect is libel. This is the diff where I removed it: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACrushing_by_elephant&diff=72747007&oldid=72744660

21:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

To count as libel it actually has to be believable. Those comments are just dumb trolling. Dragons flight 21:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Nothing to see here. Newyorkbrad 21:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit war. Warned numerous times. Made sandbox crash. Hope you dont think Im being too pushy since he's not messing with my pages--Concerned User 23:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

17:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked Syphon for 48 hours. I would not object if another admin feels a need to lengthen this block. JoshuaZ 18:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

User has requested a review on their talk page, I reviewed it, declined to lift, and support this block. ++Lar: t/c 20:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

48 hours seems about right for a first offense of this nature. Hopefully he will realize he is now on a short leash and any more sockpuppets will escalate the ban.

Thatcher131 (talk)

06:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Then you may want to check this out for more suspected sock activity. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 00:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

For impersonation of an administrator and sockpuppetry (verified by RFCU ) combined with trolling this editor has been indefinitely blocked by User:Samir (The Scope):

• Endorse: This is one community ban that should be enforced. (→Netscott) 12:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Evasion: user syphonbyte evades the block by editing with his alternate account
    Fram
    19:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Goodness, that's quite an assertion. I don't see problem with making productive edits or removing a reference to my friend's page, as he was banned now, (most unfortunately) so there's no point in having a link to his page. I'm his (blood) brother, I took him to the med center when he was injured at the statue. Gotem 01:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Yeah right. The user page stated that syphonbyte used this as an alternative account, and it suddenly gets back active after syphonbyte is indef blocked. What a coincidence... By the way, this means that syphonbyte either lied when he said that Gotem was an alternative account of his, or that he did not lie then but is nlying now and evading his block. Either way, it does no good for his case...
        Fram
        14:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
        • • I've blocked Gotem as an obvious sock Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Timacyde (talk · contribs)

Could someone take a look at Timacyde? It's very suspicious - he has a forged welcome note from Cyde on his talk page, and then he transcluded User:Syphonbyte/Holdem onto it. I'm thinking he may be a sockpuppet of Syphonbyte. He has more weird stuff in his contribs. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 23:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indef for trolling -- Samir धर्म 23:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks as though Syphonbyte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is evading his block here. This page created by Syphonbyte: User:Syphonbyte/Holdem relied upon this image Image:HoldemifJEWgotem.jpg uploaded by Timacyde. (→Netscott) 00:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Timacyde is now abusing the {{Stop}} template to the point of freezing browsers on his talk page, so I would recommend that that be protected. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 00:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, that image had an interesting history. (→Netscott) 00:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Page protected by The Anome -- Samir धर्म 00:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Back (and blocked) as Edy_C._Syew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with the same image. (→Netscott) 00:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If User:Clyde_Wey and that user name's corresponding talk page could be protected that'd be hepful too. (→Netscott) 00:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Userpage has been protected. I'm not seeing any pressing issues with the respective talk page, however. El_C 00:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Tis a bit odd that Clyde Wey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is active at the same time as this latest batch of socks. I'm starting to think that Syphonbyte (talk · contribs) is heading for an indefinite blocking. (→Netscott) 01:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

(Reindent): only a suspicion, but seeing his vehement defense that the latest bunch are not syphonbyte but some of his friends, he probably is right. He is always working together with

Fram

09:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I also had an encounter with the guys Fram mentions. Most of them seem to be students at the same school. A lot of meat puppetry is going on here, I think - some of them are inactive for weeks and then re-appear out of the blue to support Syphonbute or the Raven. There is a little sockpuppetry going on too (eg I still wonder whether

Pan Gerwazy

18:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A warm thank you for all editors / admins involved in stopping this!

Fram

12:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

And a warm this is only be beginning for those of you who knowingly took part in this scheme. You can run one user off Wikipedia, but you can't erase the good that I did for the encyclopedia. I'm only going to do more good, the name I do it under is irrelevant. 80.58.205.33 20:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a slight hunch that a local politician may have attempted to use Wikipedia for his own political gain. I know this isn't exactly vandalism, but I am unfamiliar with the protocol in place for this situation. The user in question is

15:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Only people with checkuser permission can do that... See

masterka

01:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If these folks are merely candidates, then both articles should be on AfD, IMO, where candidate pages are pretty routinely sent to the bit bucket. If they're both independently famous and important but charge and countercharge are in the news, you might also look at the Slashdotted article -- depending on how many spurious edits you think the articles are getting. After the Mark Taylor (politician) situation (and I mean the Wikipedia article) hit CNN, other politicians will no doubt have learned a "lesson" about politicizing us. I agree that we have to be extremely vigilant. Geogre 19:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am continuing my efforts in regards to this matter. I have replaced all three tags after Stampedem removed them, and expained why on the discussion page. I'll keep you all up to date. Somnabot 23:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The user continues to fight my changes, and seems to be unfamiliar with

civility. I continue to explain my perspective to him/her on the discussion page, yet he/she keep fighting me. Please help. Somnabot

20:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Lingeron/Thewolfstar

I gave her many, many chances to change her attitude and editing style before reporting it, but Thewolfstar is back, this time in the form of Whiskey Rebellion, making the same strange edits. See her talk page and contribution history for evidence. This one seems like a no-brainer, but I would like to have others take a look into it. --AaronS 20:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't look like a complete no-brainer (assuming it's Maggie, she's gotten a lot smarter), but a Checkuser may be in order. There's a suspiciously advanced knowledge of Wikipedia markup, combined with a similarly tendentious (though toned-down compared to previously) editing style. Watching Maggie's initial meltdown (I didn't participate (much?), but watching was more than enough) was deeply unsettling; it wouldn't be pleasant to watch it happen again. However, we need to be absolutely sure before we do anything drastic. Captainktainer * Talk 20:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To help with this, perhaps you should take a look at User:Lingeron's edit history. She was also a sock puppet of Maggie, and was also a bit more careful. The fact that she has toned down a bit is the reason why I waited so long to report anything to WP:AN/I. But I've been dealing with her for weeks, and it's pretty obvious to me, now, that she's a sock puppet (and my initial hunches tend to be correct regarding sock puppets, anyway). She's doing the same old thing, accusing people of being part of a communist conspiracy, calling them anti-American, claiming that there's an anti-American bias imposed by America-haters, and so forth. She's also highly sensitive, and lashes out quite a bit, per usual. Now she's accusing us of editing while drunk. --AaronS 20:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, AaronS, it was DTC who first made the observation that you and Blockader were editing Wikipedia while drunk. This is evident by your conversations on talk:Anarchism. You both sound drunk and have all but admitted that you edit while drinking. I'm sorry that you think I am this (these) users. I'm just not and it's frustrating that you've driven good users away with your constant accusations like Two-bitSprite. As far as knowing markup, I've already explained to Bunchofgrapes that I've been using computers for 11 years, (since I was 9 years old), and can do quite a few things concerning their use. Another thing that you mentioned, the anti-American thing, This user says she is anti-American on her page, and this user also claims to be 'un-American'. That is what started me wondering and saying such a thing! I never said there was a communist conspiracy. What a thing to say! I have also, btw, been accused of being possibly User:RJII and User:Hogeye here: User_talk:Bunchofgrapes. Whiskey Rebellion 22:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. As far as the facts are concerned, Two-Bit Sprite and I got along together quite well, actually, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. When you work a lot on an article and get to know all of the editors there, the bad with the good, it becomes easy to recognize who's whom. It's like reading the same few authors over and over again. After a while, you can be presented with a short paragraph from an unnamed book, and, without much effort, name the author and title. Regardless, I don't consider myself to be one of the partisan editors; it's just that I consider the actions of the partisans on one side to be a bit more offensive than the partisans on the other. Needless to say, I get along quite well with everybody from both sides of the spectrum, save a couple of editors who have been notoriously nasty to all who disagree with them. --AaronS 00:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I brought this issue to Bunchofgrapes' attention a week or two ago (now in the archive), but at the time they didn't seem it was clear enough to block yet. Also see User talk:Bishonen for another conversation (also in archives). Anyway, they have definitely toned their edits down as mentioned above, although it has gotten worse the last few days. I however am convinced this is thewolfstar. I also think DTC and That'sHot should be checked into as well (DTC is accused of being an RJII sock, and I also mentioned this on both Bishonen and Bunchofgrapes' talk pages), but am not as confident as with Whiskey Rebellion. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 23:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It could very likely be her. One way to find out is if she comes here to WP:AN/I and starts posting about my crappy edits, my slanderous statements about others, or simply about the fact that I don't know the name of Trunk Highway 100 which is located in Minnesota. (Or is it SPUI who's supposed to make that complaint? I forget.) --Elkman - (Elkspeak) 21:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me. The account name is straight out of Maggie's farm. (Read about the Whiskey Rebellion: it's her kind of topic.) The evidence is certainly clear enough for a check user. Since enough folks are questioning the identification here, we'll need to RFCU before blocking, I suppose. Geogre 19:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. I thought that was obvious enough though. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Me, too, but it's a good thing, generally, that we do the RFCU if there is any doubt, and that the question came up here, first. This way, we can tell the overworked, good humored folks at check user that we aren't bothering them frivolously. Geogre 12:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This user is busy in with a elaborate campaign of POV violation, which lies beyond the scope of this noticeboard. His methods of complex vandalism do not: the user is extremely fond of Wikilawyering, using it mainly to strike sources opposing his views from articles, especially the old problem article of Anarchism. He has made a complex 3RR violation striking an excellent source (a violation so complex no admin made a judgement). He insists on removing a slew of sources, some impeccable, despite my repeated pleadings for him not to and explanations as to why not on the talk page. Later other editors gave fuller defenses of some of these sources here which the user has ignored in striking them from the article, unilaterally, first one excellent source, then a bucket of sources (as he had before). Having thus removed sources opposing his POV he frames his POV as the scholarly consensus. Due to his dishonesty (he claims, twice, to have read all the sources and not have found the claims in question) his aggressive misrepresentation of sources (as discussed in the talk page) and of Wikipedia policy (concerning what is an acceptable source) I believe it impossible to consider his acts as those done in good faith. I ask for administrator intervention explaining to the user the unsuitability of manipulating Wikipedia in this way, since he has been edit-warring for weeks and has brushed off all attempts at mediation (note how his list of "verified" sources is unchanged since a week ago, despite some of these sources being justified on the talk page in the mean time). I have not mentioned all the details here for conciseness - I can be contacted for a fuller explanation of the points on my talk page. Thank you in advance --GoodIntentions^talk 06:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Now for the real story. You're the one that put in those sources and I gave you ample time to come up with page numbers so they could be verified but you couldn't do it. Why couldn't you do it? Because you never accessed the sources. You took them out of another Wikipedia article, which you admitted. Apparently you don't know that information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. If you cite a whole book and claim that somewhere in there is the specific claim that anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism, how is anyone to verify that? I looked through some of those books and I didn't see the claim in them. And you didn't either. The burden is on you to show that you allege to be sources actually are. You need to give us a page number, and a quote as well would be better. When and if you do, I'm going to look it up in the book to verify it. If you assume bad faith, that's your problem. I haven't given you any reason to assume bad faith. I have even deleted sources that were claimed to say anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism, because I went to verify it and it didn't say what it was alleged to say. But if you want to assume bad faith, go right ahead. Your assumption of bad faith is not going to stop me verifying the sources and deleting any that can't be verified. And yes, please send us some intervention, preferably from someone who cares about Wikipedia having reliable information. DTC 06:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not asking for intervention in a content dispute, but for someone do address the violations of WP policy (through manipulation of sources) that DTC has been guilty of. The content dispute is a different matter, and as old as the hills. It's made unmanagable by the edit-warring of this single-minded bad-faith editor. --GoodIntentions^talk 02:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

70.35.237.67 began by adding speculation and unsourced statements at Lexington, Kentucky which was removed several times by myself and another user. The IPUser argued and began digging through my user contribution list, editing Louisville, Kentucky, Urban exploration, Big Dig, The Atlantic Paranormal Society, Waverly Hills Sanatorium, Parapsychology, and University of Kentucky. The IPUser was given clear instruction on proper procedure at Wikipedia regarding the original incident, but ignored all suggestions. He was then warned after vandalising numerous pages and the IPUser has gone as far as to remove the warning templates. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 11:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I also reported it earlier at the Mediation Cabal, to which the IPUser has already vandalised with irrelevant garbage. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 11:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours for disruptive editing spreading over several article. Also engaged in taunting editors with uncivil play on their user name. --FloNight 00:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to do anything, newcomer. I suggest you take it easy until you learn the ropes. I'll be happy to get you blocked if you need a lesson. Have a nice day. -999 (Talk) 22:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

really? Thank you for the threat, you will be reported to admins.--Shravak 22:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC --Shravak 22:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, 999 doesn't seem to be brimming with good cheer, but that was part of a

three revert rule warning. Please try to work out your disagreement on the article's talk page, respond graciously to requests for citation, and avoid getting grumpy notes about edit warring on your talkpage by not edit warring. Jkelly

22:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Shravak, you are not the first person that 999 has been

03:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that because the user is rather new, some

lineancy is called for. I did block him for 3RR, though, as he was propperly warned. El_C

20:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As once stated on this noticeboard, I was unfortunately involved in an edit conflict at the article on Pluto with

not half an hour later.

When I found that

Voice of All

, he left a clerk note stating the fishing reason).

Nixer has been blocked on and off for the past year because of

."

I do not know if this user has exactly exhausted the community's patience, or not, but he has surely exhausted mine and Cactus.man's. With such an extensive history of 3RR, sockpuppeteering, and other such violations under Nixer's belt, I believe that the community should decide upon such an action (if need be, I will try to file an ArbCom, but input on anyone who was involved in the prior "Revert war in pluto" conversation to comment here). Ryūlóng 00:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• After reviewing the evidence it appears to me that the project would benefit from banning User:Nixer. Temporary blocks have obviously had no effect on him. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 00:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Agreed. Nixer simply does not respect the rules of this community and should have no part of it. --  Netsnipe  ►  03:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Agree. The user has been blocked over 20 times in one year (from yesterday), all for 3RR and edit warring. The lesson has not been learned, dispite intervention by other users. It is with heavy heart that anyone should be community banned, but this takes the cake. Teke ^(talk) 04:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Nixer's RFCU request did have one shiver of light. The need for a checkuser to strongly reject/decline a request was seen. I created this new RFCU template after talking with Mackensen: Rejected --
  Kevin_b_er
  04:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Agree This users attempts at calling to points in policy and ignoring the spirit of the same gets no sympathy from me, we allow too many breachers, pointers and provocateurs already. --Alf ^melmac 07:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Oh dear, it's an either or situation. Certainly, his block log is a complete train wreck of 3RR violations, and he shows absolutely no sign of being able to modify this disruptive behaviour. Something needs to be done however, and if it's not a community ban then his behaviour must be examined by arbcom. His recent behaviour before and after my recent block of him is completely unacceptable, including sockpuppet abuse and frivolous RFCU requests in spiteful retaliation. As a recently involved admin I offer no opinion on a community ban, leaving that to others. I will of course participate in any RfAr if submitted, or possibly even get round to it myself, time permitting. Ryūlóng seems to have provided all the necessary diffs, but if anybody needs further info re my involvement, drop me a note. --Cactus.man ✍ 08:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest an RfC in the first instance, and a warning that there will be a one week block for the next violation of any kind. This does appear to be a serial violator of 3RR, but I see at least some sign that perhaps a productive editor might exist underneath it all, although edit-warring over what he appears to see as the appalling crime of calling Pluto a dwarf planet (which it is, according to the IAU) surely qualifies for
  WP:LAME. Just zis Guy you know?
  11:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I posted a pointer to this discussion on Nixer's talk page. Hopefully he will take heed of comments here, respond appropriately and move on. Let's wait and see. --Cactus.man ✍ 14:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Nixer can really be a pain to deal with due to his stubbornness, but he has a number of good contributions and in my opinion he in general was an asset rather than a liability. I am against indefinite community block on this stage but I would support some limiting of his edit warring (e.g. 1RR or 2RR instead of 3RR) as well as some sort of a formal mentoring ( I volunteer to be a mentor, but I would need an assistance from somebody in a Moscow timezone). If we need a formal Arbcom decision for this, I would support the Arbcom. abakharev 14:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • If Alex and another are willing to mentor him then giving him one more chance might make sense. JoshuaZ 22:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

3RR

. Due to the fair number of sources in the article documenting Ahmadinejad's disdain for Israel and etc., I don't really buy it; however, i blocked him for only 6 hours, out of good faith and in the hopes that they could maybe chat about this on liftarn's talk page. Some people are unhappy with this. So i figured i'd bring it up here. Liftarn continues to claim that his reverts are not subject to 3rr, while other editors feel i didn't block for long enough.

But i'm not looking for a resolution to this content dispute; i have some specific questions:

• what are the limits of
  WP:BLP
  , and what happens when someone believes they are using it legitimately and others disagree?
• How can a category such as Anti-Semitic people possibly exist, containing living people, in a npov fashion, not impinging on BLP guidelines? how do we decide--even with sources--whether or not someone is an anti-semite in a situation such as this?

thoughts? --heah 00:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see how it's possible for

WP:BLP. Especially unnaceptable is its statement that "Wikipedia defines anti-semitism as X." That's original research, boys and girls, and the worst possible kind: it's for the purpose of labelling people with a highly-loaded term. It could be replaced, I suppose, by Category:People who are called Anti-Semitic or Category:Allegedly anti-semitic people—which would have the criterion that some notable source had called them Anti-Semitic. This criterion, unlike the current one, is at least self-consistent under NPOV. -- SCZenz

00:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This category has been

00:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

A very valid point. One thing I note is that it hasn't been nominated since before

WP:BLP became a widely-known official policy, and it may no longer be consistent with our current mechanisms of handling biographies of living persons. I'll look at the category a bit more and possibly re-nominate it. But yes, this isn't the place to discuss it; if anyone wants to argue with what I wrote above, or discuss the general issues here (rather than the specific incident), please direct that to my talk page. -- SCZenz

01:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

) 01:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Whatever shred of "good faith" one can attest to his reversion of the anti-Semitic people cat, despite all the evidence on that, does not apply to his reversion of the "Holocaust denial" category. In that regard he was engaged in a one-man reversion war. He had zero support for that reversion on the talk page. For that alone his block should have been far more than the six hours imposed. That was no way a good-faith invocation of BLP, by any way shape or form. I think Heath errs is treating reversions for the anti-Semitic cat and the (relatively uncontroversial) Holocaust denial cat as being equivalent.--Mantanmoreland 01:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It's up in half an hour, and his continued removal of Category:Holocaust denial wasn't problematic under BLP. Which is why i still went ahead and imposed a short block. SCZenz pretty much echoes my views, but BLP wasn't applicable to everything going on with the reverts. --heah 01:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

In this rename discussion the majority of views were either for rename or delete on Category:Anti-Semitic people. I imagine in DRV that renaming might go through.... I'm not really sure why the renaming wasn't instituted. (→Netscott) 01:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly. The admin who closed discussion noted that "there is consensus for the category to exist." Actually it was nominated again two weeks later, and more voted to keep unchanged than to rename. [56] --Mantanmoreland 01:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm honestly at some loss at to understand this. He reverted two cats, one definitely not a good faith reversion under BLP. If he had reverted that alone would it have warranted a longer block? I fail to see how reverting two cats is less problematic than reverting one. Also note that on his talk page he views this whole 3RR thing as "wikistalking."--Mantanmoreland 01:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the Holocaust category as I'm not that familiar with Ahmadinejad's story in that light and I'd have to research that... but if Liftarn was targetting the anti-Semitic people category and that other category was in the mix... then I'd say it was fair game per

this section of WP:3RR. (→Netscott

) 01:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

MA would consider it "libelous" not to be called a Holocaust denier.--Mantanmoreland 01:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Mantanmoreland. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 02:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well the anti-Semitic people category has been very contentious and it is very evident that there is no consensus on that. If the Holocaust category wasn't clouding the issue I doubt Liftarn would have been blocked here. I suspect the issues with these categories may need to be discussed on the Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard. (→Netscott) 02:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you let Liftarn or any editor revert infinitely the "anti-Semitic category" tag, then you might as well do away with the category. That may be all ducky for an editor such as yourself who opposes both the category and MA's inclusion therein, but seems a rather backwards way of approaching the situation. There is such a category, and if the evidence is mountainous that a person belongs in it, as in this instance, citing BLP and revert-warring using that language is bad faith and should be subject to 3RR. Otherwise you have endless edit warring.--Mantanmoreland 02:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the problem exactly? Not enough

WP:RS? I'd say not. Or we are afraid that MA (as BLP) is going to sue WP? Highly unlikely. It seems to me that certain uncomfortable events or speeches are so uncomfortable for some users, that they want to hide them under the rug hoping the problem goes away. Sorry, human history is full of uncomfortable events and good encylopedias should expose, describe and systematize them. Oh, and this particular issue has been discussed to death, so starting another discussion is not going to help. ←Humus sapiens ^ну?

02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether the category (anti-semitic people) should exist or not is not a discussion for this forum. It is not

04:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No 3RR exemption. Here's a tip for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: if you don't want to be seen as a Holocaust denier and an antisemite, stop denying the Holocaust and stop making anti-semitic statements. Remember, I said if. El_C 06:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of power. VAndalizing my page and viloating the 3RR rule. Warned several times and continued to vandalize.TheTruth2 00:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• It's not considered 3RR to revert vandalism, and removal of valid warnings are considered just that.
  Danny Lilithborne
  00:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• TheTruth2 has been repeatedly warned for removing warnings from his/her talk page. I will give one last warning that TheTruth2 will be blocked if they don't stop. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• TheTruth2 has already tried to report Ohnoitsjamie at
  Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR (result: no action against Ohnoitsjamie). Enough already. NawlinWiki
  03:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Abuse of power Vandalism and 3RR violation. Jamie could have gotten another admin involved. Also Zoe I have not removed the warnings since early yesterday. Jamie is abusing his power.TheTruth2 05:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, it's a misreading of policy to assert that somehow someone who is warning you can't block you because he or she is "involved in a dispute." They're not "involved" - they're enforcing policy.
    FCYTravis
    16:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Jamie is abusing his power. Period.TheTruth2 16:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Do you see any other administrators or fellow editors here agreeing with you? Three (corrected)separate administrators apart from Ohnoitsjamie have blocked you in the past. Two other administrators and four editors including myself agree that your reports to
  WP:AN3 are groundless. Please learn to accept community consensus. --  Netsnipe  ► 
  18:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Then it needs to be updated then.TheTruth2 18:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• What needs to be updated?
  Danny Lilithborne
  23:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Chadbryant has been subjected to ongoing harassment over a long period of time, particularly by Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Dick Witham. The latest ploy is to upload a picture from his personal website onto a user page of a sock, as in Chabba, now indef blocked. He has recently been sent a harassing e-mail through Wikipedia from Chabba. Can the sending email address be blocked from using the system? Tyrenius 01:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that Chabba/Linden Arden is not the same individual as "DickWitham", but is working in tandem with that user. - Chadbryant 01:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the image, as I don't think it needs to sit at Wikipedia:Copyright problems for the next couple of weeks. Jkelly 01:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Any user who has been doing more or less what most sockpuppets of Dick Witham have been doing, especially harassing Chadbryant, using his images in "abusive" ways or whatever, can be indef-blocked. What do you mean by "blocked from using the system"? Do you mean Wikipedia's email tool? --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:TJ Spyke and User:KojiDude have been edit-waring over some trival matter for a while now. 65.175.202.243 01:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Both have been blocked for 24 hours for the moment. --InShaneee 22:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Can someone pleeeeeeeeeeeease semi-protect my userpage and talk page ASAP? In the last hour alone my talk page (not to mention other pages I've edited) have been vandalised with defamatory statements by 6 seperate sockpuppets of VaughanWatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)/JohnnyCanuck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). [57] [58] [59] [60] [61]

That's not even to mention the other 20 sockpuppets who've done essentially the same thing over the last 5 days. Thanks in advance. --

03:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Make that 7 in an hour [62]. --
  pm_shef
  03:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Done Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 03:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Okeydoke, so they're not trolling my talkpage now thanks to the protection, but they've moved into the main space, [63] and [64]. We just gonna keep blocking them as they show up? Is there nothing we can do proactively? --
  pm_shef
  04:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Not really. Luckily this is a really stupid troll, who makes the socks completely obvious :-) Just zis Guy you know? 11:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• He has a couple of different types of sock puppets. He seems to lash out with these really abusive socks whenever his other socks aren't successful. I think this attack may have been as a result of semi-protecting
  Vaughan municipal election, 2006 yesterday. I have also seen a similar attack when I was blocking & reverting all the socks voting at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Statue of Responsibility. (Although, if you want to talk stupid, those socks were still very active after it was clear that the result of that AFD would be keep, which was his desired outcome.) -- JamesTeterenko
  18:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Enormous quantity of image vandalism

From two users: LegionUltraBoy (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) and Spartanpass (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). It's not in the contribs, of course, but in the upload log: [65]. Unless I'm missing something obvious here (and a lot of album covers look like vandalism to me) -- this is a huge string of unreverted vandalism and it's been going on for a while. Can someone else assist me with this? I'm going to start reverting. Antandrus (talk) 04:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone want to help me delete the bad revisions? Otherwise this idiot kid will just make another account and revert back again. Thanks for any help, Antandrus (talk) 04:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll jump in and delete a few, sure. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I reverted up to the point where I started finding your reversions, Antandrus. :( I wish I could help further. Ryūlóng 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all. I've finished with LegionUltraBoy; next up. Antandrus (talk) 05:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been working on it. Mak (talk) 05:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I know. Thanks.  :-) Antandrus (talk) 05:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Any image upload vandalism should be cleared from the following accounts, which appear to be a sockfarm. (And the accounts probably should be blocked if they are not already) DKsRule (talk · contribs · logs)

) BlazingLasers (talk · contribs · logs) CentipediaNES (talk · contribs · logs) KidIcarusNES (talk · contribs · logs) CaptainMarvelDC (talk · contribs · logs) GlobalGUTS (talk · contribs · logs) CthulhuCommandsYou (talk · contribs · logs) GottaCatchEmAll (talk · contribs · logs) ChildrensCrusade (talk · contribs · logs) IWashMyselfWithaRagOnaStick (talk · contribs · logs) FallOutChoi (talk · contribs · logs) DoubtingElDandy (talk · contribs · logs) BlackestNight (talk · contribs · logs) I Totally Rule (talk · contribs · logs) Jefferson Carship (talk · contribs · logs) GoGoGobots (talk · contribs · logs) ChicaGLoFire (talk · contribs · logs) ChicaGLoBulls (talk · contribs · logs) ChicaGLoTribune (talk · contribs · logs) JeffersonCarship (talk · contribs · logs) FallOutBoySucks (talk · contribs · logs) HerkimerCountyBlowhole (talk · contribs · logs) LaserChallenge (talk · contribs · logs) After a short while, I'm sure you'll figure out how I got that list. But I'm going with BEANS otherwise. If I were you I'd torch the talk edits as well. 05:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Took me a few ... seconds to figure it out.

Kevin, GTBacchus, Ryulong, Makemi, and if there was anyone I missed, thank you for helping out. Antandrus (talk) 06:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

A user,

. I also left a helpful edit summary, as well as a message, detailing the fixes I made to conform with the Wikipedia policy linked previously.

This user has since posted a message on GIen's talk accusing me of Wikistalking, as well as stating "I have previously requested that the user Daniel Bryant do not edit my talk page".

. I am under no Arbitration Commitee sanction at all, and this user needs to be reminded about these regulations, as well as to not falsley accuse people of stalking another's talk page, however I do not wish to inflame this user's misconcieved thoughts that I shouldn't post on their talk page.

Considering the serious warnings handed out by an impartial administrator, any administrator who reviews this may wish to take further action under

06:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Issue has been dealt with, however

Bryant

08:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Now under a week-long block for pretending that the ArbCom decision in his case doesn't apply to him, Dbiv (talk · contribs) has created a sockpuppet (DavidBoothroyd (talk · contribs)) and is trying to redirect the User Page thrown up by his IP (User:80.177.212.6, also blocked) and alter his own message left on my Talk Page ("Remove personal attack", says his edit summary: nice of him to admit it upfront). Minor, but still irritating. --Calton | Talk 13:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No-one's blocked the sockpuppet... shall I? The Land 13:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Calton, aren't you an admin?? I've blocked the sockpuppet. If Dbiv ceases to use it to evade the block on his main account then there's no reason to believe it's a malicious sockpuppet, and it can be unblocked. However, he doesn't seem to realise that even though he is an ex-admin the rules still apply to him. The Land 13:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Calton is not an admin re his talk page header. ;) Syrthiss 14:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Really, I thought he was. The Land 14:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never hidden that fact: Say it loud! I'm a non-admin and proud mildly content! --Calton | Talk 14:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Tragic cases like this raise the chicken or egg question about whether desysopped people are pushed over the edge by their rejection or whether the community made a good call. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 14:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The original block was specifically for editing Peter Tatchell, from which Dbiv is banned. --Tony Sidaway 14:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The stated purpose of the sock is to protect the article on himself,

Thatcher131 (talk)

14:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. It is unfortunate that that was necessary. I feel blocking his sockpuppet was slightly more the letter of policy than the spirit. Equally, he is being deliberately disruptive (though in a minor way) and he should know better. It all fits with the pattern of behaviour that led to his desysopping.

If User:DavidBoothroyd were not be used as a tool to evade blocks, I would be quite happy to unblock it (at least at times when Dbiv is not blocked). The Land 14:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not an admin by any stretch -- just an amateur busybody -- and whether the sockpuppet is indefbanned or not is of no concern to me. Being blocked for the duration of his existing block IS -- especially if it stops his oddball gameplaying, like reporting me to

14:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Technical question: I thought User talk:80.177.212.6 was semi-protected. I thought that meant brand-new users (like User:DavidBoothroyd couldn't edit it. No? --Calton | Talk 14:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"New" in this case means 4 or 5 days I think. USer:David Boothroyd was created 10 days ago.

Thatcher131 (talk)

14:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:DavidBoothroyd isn't a brand new account - it was created on the 21st of this month, not the 31st (confusing, as the only activity has been on those two dates). So it predates the week-long block. I'd suggest that the account is blocked for a shorter period, but not indefinitely - there is a legitimate use for it, and David has been open from the start about the fact that it's a sock/alternate account (see the edit history). --ajn (talk) 14:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The plot thickens. Dbiv has removed the notice saying I'd blocked his sockpuppet. I restored it; he did it again; I have protected his talk page. Also very regrettable. The Land 14:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be really nice if we could de-escalate this situation. CanadianCeasar's question is highly relevant. I've seen several former admins turn on wikipedia and we should do as little as possible to contribute to that. In the spirit of being nice and assuming good faith I would like to ask that

Thatcher131 (talk)

15:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I probably agree: I have unblocked the sock and unprotected the talk page. Let's hope for the best from David. The Land 15:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I may be speaking about stuff that ain't my business, Thatcher, but here it goes: rather than an appeal by Dbiv (that was rejected by ArbCom), why not make a motion in prior case and replace the article ban with a probation or a revert parole? If Dbiv will really want to improve the article and not go edit-warrying again, that's just fine for WP. If not, well he'll be blocked. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Without reviewing the arbitration case, I'm sure that such remedies were considered. (You can look yourself; it would be on

Thatcher131 (talk)

15:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm obviously not the best person to argue on this case. I would just like to state for the record that such a remedy was not considered at the workshop. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, after subsequent events, it's hard for me to imagine the arbitrators considering such a motion without several months of quiet, polite productive edits. Dbiv can edit the Tatchell talk page, of course, although that's apparently not good enough for him.

Thatcher131 (talk)

16:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If one were to tell a friend to please not borrow the car for awhile because they smoked in it, and they borrowed it again, it makes sense to take away the keys for awhile. We all have a certain amount of respect for Dbiv, but when people step beyond bounds of what's acceptable, even if they're nice about it (e.g. using an ashtray in a smoking-verboten place), we should not permit that. Allowing them to do so if they paint the cigarettes like straws is not kosher -- neither is changing the rules so they can smoke. Dbiv should show better sense than this, and we shouldn't be bending over backwards to permit or reward broken behaviour. Please reblock the sock and let him wait. --Improv 15:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Improv is right (I never meant my clarification of the block reason to imply that the sock should not also be blocked). Members of the Arbitration Committee specifically expressed severe reservations about Dbiv's conduct during the arbitration case, specifically his insertion of his own point of view into one of the proposed findings of fact (on a page that is reserved for arbitrators and clerks). His conduct since the case ended includes two separate repeated instances of edit warring on the Peter Tatchell article from which he is banned, in what he openly describes as a direct challenge to the Arbitration Committee's authority.

Whatever injustice may have been perpetrated in this case, it could not be remedied by subjecting Dbiv to special treatment. --Tony Sidaway 16:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. One question though - if Tony blocked Dbiv for one week at 21:35, 27 August 2006 (BST), how has he managed to edit since then in the past few days? I'm thinking an unblock to reblock is in order, as this seems to be a block that has not taken hold. I agree with the de-escalation sentiments, this is a previously prolific and valuable contributor. However, he is actively sticking two fingers up to an ArbCom ruling and using 3 accounts to circumvent that and resultant blocks for violating the ruling. --Cactus.man ✍ 18:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked editors still have the ability to edit their talk pages; Since 27 August, Dbiv has edited only his talk page while logged in at that account. --Tony Sidaway 19:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Woops, of course. A complete misreading of which accounts / sockpuppets / IP's edited which pages and when. My mistake. --Cactus.man ✍ 23:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for special treatment. As I understand it, socks used to evade blocks should themselves be blocked. This is normally considered egregious misconduct by the blocked user. However, the fact that a sock has been used to evade a block does not necessarily mean that it will be in future. If Dbiv can avoid the temptation to wind people up with his sockpuppet, then that is a valuable step to his addressing the problems that led to him being blocked in the first place. If he continues to evade his block, then we can just issue more blocks on one or both accounts with relatively little effort. (I hope that what I maen is at least vaguely clear). The Land 20:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Syphonbyte was recently indefinitely blocked for creating and utilizing disruptively impostor sockpuppet accounts of User:Cyde all confirmed by RFCU. This case looked over but relative to this diff wherein Gotem states, "I am also Syphonbyte" it appears that he's now editing as Gotem (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). User:Gotem is denying this but User:Syphonbyte repetitively denied utilizing sockpuppets and this is likely a further example of this. Perhaps someone with a mop could take a look at this? Thanks. (→Netscott) 14:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty obvious sock. Indefinately blocked. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 15:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As a goodwill gesture and an act of kindness, I shortened Mccready's 7 day block to 2 days. The blocking admin was fine with the change. (see talk page discussion for reason). Immediately after returning to editing he made highly uncivil/PA edits and continued his original negative disruptive editing style that caused his block. I reblocked him. Mccready now is claiming that my block should be reviewed because I have a grudge against him. Please review and change if consensus supports it. [67] --FloNight 15:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Duncharris has unblocked, so apparently that's at least one who thought it was too much. I wouldn't have unblocked, myself, but I can't disagree with it too much either I suppose. The block sent the message it was intended to send. The message does not appear to have been received, but maybe there's little to be done about that. Friday (talk) 15:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

We really need a bot for archiving and transcluding old questions, is there anyone who has an open source bot, they wouldn't mind sharing, that could be adapted for our needs? Crypticbot was supposedly going to go open source, but never did. If anyone has bot source code that might be adapted to suite our needs, please contact me on my talk page--

^{71.247.243.173} 16:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

During a recent

16:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What do mean he "effaced" your first message? Please provide a link. In general, if he removes your messages from his talk page, I wouldn't talk to him there. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, perhaps that wasn't the right word - the only place you could have found the message was in the page history. The 'archiving' is here but the archives are here - messages gone. If you'll look through the page history you'll see that through today I tried twice to reinstall them and later to simply leave a link - all removed. THEPROMENADER 17:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest having a look at ThePromander's block log and at ThePromenader's hostile messages at User talk:Captain scarlet (the whole page, not just the last messages) to better understand the sort of harassment I am being subjected to. Then the purpose of his complaint here will become quite clear. Hardouin 17:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) OK I see. The reason I asked for more info was that my response depends on what you meant. Had he edited you comments to make it look like you said something that you did not, well that's one thing. But if he has simply deleted your comments, then just let the matter go. It's his talk page. Hee doesn't have to archive messages from you. Defend yourself somewhere else, i.e. not on his talk page. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 17:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright then, thanks. I'll keep the messages on my own talk page. THEPROMENADER 17:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: I had thought there was some sort of convention against this sort of behaviour. Sorry for your time. THEPROMENADER 17:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Although it is generally considered bad taste, editors do have the right to remove non-warning messages. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just blocked

) _{17:42, 31 August 2006}

• I'd block indefinitely, if it is compromised then the real owner can still contact us, if not then the block stands. Just a couple of observations though, the first edits were only at the beginning of the month. The first edits was to install popups in their monobook.js, so I would suggest this wasn't a brand new user per se. --pgk^(talk) 18:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree. I've reset the block to indefinite for now.
    masterka
    19:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

IP 155.247.166.28

This IP has been blocked three times previously, and is still regularly vandalizing pages with various nonsense and outright homophobic slurs which have nothing to do with the articles in question. Perhaps a longer blocking period than a day or two is required to discourage this person from amusing themselves with idiotic behavior. Unigolyn 19:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Shared IP with many good contributions; short blocks can be made where necessary, but it looks like that vandal is gone for now. In the future, please, report these to

WP:AIV. Thanks :) RadioKirk (u|t|c

) 20:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

They haven't done much in the last few days. I'm hesitant about warning them, since the vandalism died down awhile ago and the wrong person may get the wrong message. Don't report them to

WP:AIV unless they do it again. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me

) 22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Stampedem

Stampedem continues to troll the Eliot Shapleigh article, and is ademently defending the presence of the Dee Margo article, although I have already explained that candidate pages are pretty routinely sent to the bit bucket. I need an IP address linked to this user. I believe these contributions are coming directly from campaign headquarters. Somnabot 20:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

A thread I posted to got archived without any response. See IncidentArchive130. I'm having difficulty finding out where the current discussion on this is taking place. Can anyone help? Thanks. Carcharoth 22:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Chalklit73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to be a vandalism-only account. I've only blocked for an hour, but, if someone feels a longer block is appropriate, please be my guest. (This is my first block which isn't a repeat of a previous block for the same type of condition.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Changed block to indefinite. If he wants to create Chalklit74 or Chalklit 73, it's up to him, after the IP block drops off. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia has engaged in a long edit war on

03:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Without regard to this report, I blocked

this) alphaChimp ^laudare

03:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia has made another obvious sockpuppet,

heru|nar

02:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia is trying to remove the sockpuppeteer tag from his User page. He has removed it three times already[100][101][102], and will most likely keep going until an admin stops him. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. He illegitimately put a sockpuppeteer tag on my user page as retaliation for my edits[103]. --- Hong Qi Gong 17:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Edipedia is once again removing warnings from his Talk page[104]. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yesterday I successfully put the article "Benoît Chamoux" into production but when I search on "Chamoux" the article is not listed. Is there something that I need to do to update the indexing for search? Thanks, CCC Cclauss 08:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Make a redirect. Create a page called "Chamoux" with the content only reading "#REDIRECT [[Benoît Chamoux]]".
  Danny Lilithborne
  08:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, that may not be the best advice for two reasons:

1. Chamoux isn't the rarest name - there's a
   Chamoux-sur-Gelon canton... we'd need a complex disambiguation
   page rather than a simple redirect, which may be more work than Cclauss is signing up for.
2. And even that won't solve the "
   Search" issue Cclauss is asking about. The issue with that is that the Wikipedia Search database can take several days to be fully updated with new articles. The only real cure for that is patience. It will come, grasshopper, it will come. AnonEMouse ^(squeak)
   21:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • I've created a disambiguation page for the two main Chamoux articles (Benoît and Jean). I normally don't include pages that don't have the disambigued word in their title in the disambiguation pages I create (so no links to the producer etcetera), but everyone's free to add those if they feel it is necessary of course.
      Fram
      08:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Oh, it's not so simple at all, I'm afraid. In the French WP, Chamoux is primarily the canton, not a disambiguation at all, and I guess they should know. Here's "what links here" for the English page - both for the canton (or are they different cantons?), neither for either Benoit or Jean. It looks like using it for a name disambiguation is inappropriate. And using the administrator's noticeboard/incidents to discuss the fate of a minor dab page is even less appropriate, now that I think about it...AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 13:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
        • For the moment, seeing what other articles exist, the current disambig page is the correct solution. What would you do? Create a Chamoux page that redirects to Chamoux (disambiguation)? That's overkill. What you can do, if you think it is necessary, is add a link on the Chamoux page to
          Fram
          19:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Could someone fix the spelling of "receives" on the featured article notice on the main page. Thanks. –Shoaler (talk) 00:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Fixed. Mackensen (talk) 01:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Would like some eyes on the following problem:

01:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Article is now semi-protected.

Naconkantari

01:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

List of reverters & actions

• User:Cowman109
  for abusive account creation
• 72.137.247.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) — only two edits, both rv to Jesse Macbeth
• Jessefriend (
  User:Cowman109
  as vandalism only account
• Deepthroat123 (
  User:Cowman109
  for vandalism & sockpuppet of Jessefriend
• Nobunaga25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — impersonator of User:Nobunaga24 — perm block for impersonation by User:ERcheck.

— ERcheck (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar has violated wikipedia's policy against personal attacks several times and contines to do so despite tactful requests for him to alter his behavior, notification of the offical policy against it, warnings to stop in Talk:Terry Goodkind and several warning templates in his user talk page. This comes in the form of rude, hostile and unfounded accusations of misconduct, labeling others liars without proof, name calling and generaly aggresive and belligerent posts targeting specific editors. The majority of these incidents can be found at Talk:Terry Goodkind and Talk: Sword of Truth. His behavior is not only disruptive and rude but hey refuses to heed very patient warnings from other editors. NeoFreak 03:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to get an idea what this is all about. It's really quite difficult with all that history - lots of material archived, etc. Mystar does, indeed, often fail to assume good faith, and he has said a lot of things in the past that probably cross the line into personal attacks. Obviously, he shouldn't do that. It's also slightly concerning the extent to which he seems to be taking instructions from Terry Goodkind himself. All the same, I'm not sure that this is the right time for admins to intervene, unless something especially outrageous happens. We may just inflame the situation, right now, when there is some hope for it to cool down.

It's basically a content dispute, and it looks as if a number of you are prepared to try mediation. I think the mediation should go ahead if at all possible. Also, I'm getting a sense (perhaps I'm wrong about this; I haven't gone to enormous lengths to check the merits of the dispute) that Mystar isn't just being mad or bad here - that he has been provoked in part by some unencyclopedic attacks on Goodkind's literary reputation using inappropriate sources. I suggest that admins keep out of it for the moment, while we see if the mediation works. All the history will come out if it ever ends up with Arb.Com. For now, I'll watch developments. I just urge that everyone try to be civil and assume that other current editors are acting in good faith, and that everyone do their best to be understanding of other viewpoints in the mediation. Of course, you (or Mystar if it comes to that) can come back here if there are any urgent problems that I'm not seeing, or haven't yet come up, which might require warnings or page protection. Comments from anyone else? Metamagician3000 13:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to be some soigns of a deescalation without the need for any further outside help. I'm hopeful this will continue. Thanks for looking into it. NeoFreak 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have warned user Ruthfulbarbarity numerous times in the last few days about his personal attacks and incivility directed towards me - all violations of WP:NPA. Today this user - in an effort to inflame already-high tensions even more, erroneously corrected my spelling of the word 'né' to 'née' (he did this in MY text, section title, and comments) claimed that the word 'né' did not exist, see then personally attacked me again, violating WP:NPA. I pointed out that my usage was correct, and he was wrong, and asked, then demanded that he correct the improper and erroneous edits he made to MY text. Thus far, he has refused. I ask that he be give a much needed and deserved 48 hour (or more) block as remedy - so that he might reflect on his actions - and that we can get some work done. You will find his edit here Ruthfulbarbarity's edit of my text and the general talk page here Talk

NBGPWS 03:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

NBGPWS (

WP:POINT. I have never heard of anyone complaining about spelling correction as a personal attack. Regardless, spelling is a content argument, not a personal attack. --Tbeatty

04:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User Ruthfulbarbarity's WP:NPA violation "First of all, it's spelled "nee," not that you would actually know that. " NBGPWS 04:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You're requesting a 48 hours "or more" block for that? It's not a nice remark, but many people wouldn't call it a PA at all. Please note that in any case only extreme personal attacks are grounds for a block. Why not correct the edits to your text yourself? And remember to comment on content, not on the contributor. Calling an edit "contentious" is acceptable, calling the editor contentious is quite unnecessary. Avoid ascribing motives to other editors, especially bad motives, such as saying "in an effort to inflame already-high tensions even more". This good advice is all official policy. Bishonen | talk 16:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC).

Damn! Oh, well - thanks for weighing in. NBGPWS 17:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

A rash of IP user(s) from Australia have overtaken the edits on the

05:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

What's the best approach to dealing with marketing puff at PA Consulting Group, it reads like it's been written by their marketing people and the contribution history by the individual who put it in seems to support that. ALR 09:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, a huge chunk of it is blatant plagiarism from PA's website. The company logo and infobox are fine and standard for a large corporation. However, the intro, 'Activities', and 'PA Ventures' sections contain verbatim lifts of their website content, while 'History' and 'Awards' seem to mostly contain original phrases. I've got to go right now, but in the meantime I changed your tags from {{POV}} and {{weasel}} to {{advert}}, which is what I think you intended to do in the first place. I'll check here when I get back and see what others suggest. I say leave the history and rewrite or cut the rest, but I'm kind of cranky right now. ;-) Baseball,Baby! ^{balls•strikes} 11:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The section 'PA Ventures' is a blantant copy past from [[105]] I was about to insert the Copyvio template, but that is for the entire artilce and not just a section. Should it just be added to replace the section? or should it be added to replace the entire article? or not at all. - Angelbo 16:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The article has had vast chunks of non-GFDL web site content dumped into it. I've reverted the article to the latest non-infringing version, tagged the userspace page wherein this content was amalgamated (Userspace isn't for copyright violations, either.), and placed a prominent notice not to do this again (this not being the first time that this company's web site has been dumped into the article) on Talk:PA Consulting Group. Uncle G 19:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know what's happened here, other than Folken de Fanel and I starting off on the wrong foot on a minor issue which degenerated into inflammatory comments. Attempted an apology as a form of mediation but was met with even more trouble. Honestly, I have no problem with him (up to this point) or the article, but he's set in thinking I'm trolling him in some way or fixated on being "right". Help here would be sincerely appreciated.

I apologize in advance if this is not the proper place for this kind of discussion, so feel free to move if it's any trouble. Thanks. Voice of Treason 12:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

So far neither of you are edit-warring over your differences, so this situation could be a lot worse. However when I looked at Talk:Tullece & the talk pages of both of you, I failed to find anything that I would consider an apology from you to Folken de Fanel -- unless your offer of an "online purple nurple" is some form of an apology I have never encountered. You might want to try apologizing again to him, in a more obvious manner. -- llywrch 18:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that User:V6g3h7 seems to have begun editing the articles on pretty much every single nation on the planet (he/she has made it to "E" so far) inserting empty lines with "Common language" everywhere but no content (except in the case of Japan). In my view this pretty much messes up the country templates, since e.g. the article on Russia could list a massive number of languages. Do anybody know if this has been proposed anywhere? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 12:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Not according to
  Template_talk:Infobox_Country. I'll block him for now, because those edits are moving way too fast. - 131.211.210.12
  12:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• You didn't consider asking the user what they were doing first? --
  talk
  ) 13:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Could someone take care of the unblock request in this case please? The guy has been blocked for almost an hour now ([106]), and no warning, no contact from any admin on his talk page and no response to his unblock request. I do think he was making these edits in good faith. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll unblock him and let him know that he should discuss things before making such a widespread change. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• (cross-posted to his talk) Yeah, sorry about that. I should have left a note after blocking you. I couldn't find any evidence changes to this template had been discussed, so I was worried about the speed with which you were editing the over 200 articles involved. If you had used edit summaries as Golbez suggested above, I might've found out you suggested the field to begin with. Please consider the above suggestion of raising suggestions to change major templates on the related talk pages and I'm sure blocks like mine won't happen again. - Mgm|^(talk) 20:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

17:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not quite accurate to say he reverted and then protected; there were 4 edits by other users between his last edit and the protection.

You are corect. I misspoke. He waited until the page was reverted to his favored version, then blocked the page after he had edited it. Isarig 22:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

However, admins should in general avoid protecting articles when they have been involved in the edit/revert war, unless it is a case of simple and obvious vandalism. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is fairly complicated, so bear with me. I have been "involved" in the Bint Jbeil article as sort of a referee. I was asked, about a month ago, for my opinion on a possible 3RR violation on this article. After sorting that out, I decided that since the article was so controversial, rather than let it hit the admin noticeboards for 3RR, RFPP, etc. every three days or so, I would watchlist it and keep a lid on disputes which occurred. I have reverted a few times in the past month, mainly for vandalism or for edits which ran afoul of talk page consensus. I am not interested in this article as an author in any way. I am just doing my best to keep a contentious article from perpetually clogging admin noticeboards. That said, a revert war over sources has broken out in the past few days, and although no one broke 3RR, I decided that the revert war was severe enough to warrant protection. Unfortunately, it had to be full protection, as several users involved in the reverting would not be covered by semi-protection. The reason I reverted Isarig's edits before I protected is because Isarig is the only person advocating his particular side of the revert war. I have even read the news article cited in this dispute, and have decided that they do not corroborate Isarig's point of view. Therefore, I reverted before protection because I would rather have a page protected on the (seemingly) more correct version than the less correct version. In addition to all of this, I would add that protection not be removed from this page, as I have seen no evidence that the revert war will not continue should protection be removed. Sorry if I have flouted policy, I thought my actions have been for the best from the start, but if the community feels otherwise I will undo them and even recuse myself from further editing of this article if need be. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 19:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryan, the situation with this article may be as you describe it, but the Talk page & the edit summaries tell little more than this is a hotly contested subject, & people disagree with Isarig. (For everybody else, the Battle of Bint Jbeil was one of the incidents of the recent Israel military action in south Lebanon. Yes, another Israel/Palestine-related conflict.) The rest of us could use a bit more conversation on the Talk page in order to understand what is being disputed & why. Transparency is a good thing. -- llywrch 20:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryan, you are making things worse for yourself by engaging in a dishonest description of the situation. I am not the "only person advocating his particular side of the revert war" - the most recent revert to my version was by user:Threeafterthree, who in addition to me, is also the only editor who has discussed his change on the Talk page - something you have yet to do. Furthermore, you cannot claim on the one hand to be "not interested in this article as an author in any way", and in the next minute tell us that you "have even read the news article cited in this dispute, and have decided that they do not corroborate Isarig's point of view" - describing a clear content dispute. In any case, disinterested editor or content-disputing editor, WP policy is clear and unambigous on this: "Admins must not protect pages they are actively engaged in editing" - there are no exceptions for self-appointed "refrees", disinterested editors or any other editor. You have admitted above to flounting policy. you have been instructed on your Talk page by another admin not to block pages you are editing - undo this block now. Isarig 22:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The locus of the dispute is over whether or not a link should be included to an MSNBC on-line news article which states that there are still Hezbollah fighters in the area of Bint Jbeil, and whether or not Bint Jbeil remains a Hezbollah stronghold. Isarig continues to remove the link to the article, and the mention that Bint Jbeil remains a Hezbollah stronghold. Various editors have reverted him on this. After having read the article in question, I have reverted Isarig, considering his edits to be both disruptive and false. I hope this clears things up, but I will be happy to provide more information if required. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 22:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

What you are describing above is a content dispute you have with me over the interpretation of the articel. You are not allowed to block articles that you have a dispute over and have been actively editing. Policy is clear on that. You are out of line. Undo your block. Isarig 22:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As an editor and especially as an admin it is easy to find yourself engaged in disputes that you came to only to assist with the resolution of a constant dispute, to remove content spam, and etc. It can be somewhat confusing as to what should be done at this point, and have found myself in similar situations. If ryangerbil did just come to that article a month ago to help diffuse a constant conflict, i can't say that i'm opposed to what he did, and that this is the reason

WP:IAR exists. (And this is the first time i've ever mentioned IAR in defense of anything . . . ) --heah

22:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Being in a "confusing" situation (of your own doing) is not reason enough to break well established policy. In this case, we have a simple content dispute. As an admin ,

WP:IAR is not a loophole by which every admin abuse can be excused. Isarig

22:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think m:The wrong version applies here. Kim Bruning 22:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed Freepsbane 23:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Having been involved in the page edit war to a limited extent, it would be prudent for me to disclose all the related information I know and have observed on this case, first and foremost Administrator User:RyanGerbil10 did not revert before protecting the disputed page. He only protected the page after a barrage of reverts came in over the past two days and did what was necessary to prevent the sustained edit war from spilling over into related articles. As stated on the label protection does not amount to an endorsement of the extant version and was correctly done out of prudence. Further more User Isarig has been extremely active in the reversion of that article and has proven unwilling to compromise with other editors, and consistently reverts the article to his specific version; against the consensus of other editors and uses only a single ambiguous source (the source appears to say the opposite of his claims) to backup his position. Additionally Isarig often has taken a belligerent attitude towards other editors, and has engaged in numerous revert wars. Often employing what may border on character assassination against other users along with intimidation, due to these reasons he has been blocked in the past for what has been called “utterly uncivil behavior” [107] a thorough check by an administrator of his User contributions and Talk archive [108] will show that this is little more than the same type of bullying he normally employs against Junior editors. This time however it has been directed against one of the most respected members of the Wikipedia community. And is unlikely to work; a good thing as I consider User:RyanGerbil10 to be one of the most helpful administrators in Wikipedia. Respectfully Freepsbane 23:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect in your description of the events. As [109] shows, on 19:37, 31 August 2006 User:RyanGerbil10 reverted my edits, well before he protected the page on 13:18, 1 September 2006. As to your description of my actions as "unwilling to compromise with other editors" - I point you, yet agian to the undeniable fact that neither you, nor User:RyanGerbil10 nor any of the anonymous editors who revrted my change have ever bothered trying to explain your edits on the Talk page. User:Threeafterthree and myselfare the only ones who did so. User:RyanGerbil10 may be one of the most helpful administrators in Wikipedia, but that does not earn him an exception from clear cut WP policy. Isarig 23:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

For those interested in how this turned out, and especially anyone who may have been fooled by RyanG's claim of 'I am not interested in this article as an author in any way.' - as of Sept 3 the mask has come off, and he now openly declares 'I am no longer a disinterested editor, nor will I claim to be in the future.' [110]. Quite a turnaround in just 2 days. Keep this in mind the next time you say an abusive admin feigning disinterest. Isarig 03:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how to report vandalism and abuse but at the Tahirih Justice Center article, the son of a volunteer/benefactor of Tahirih has been building blatant advertising for weeks. He will not back away even when caught. His name is UberCryxic on this board and Egand Kolosi in real life. His mother is Roza Kolosi, a benefactor of the Tahirih Justice Center. His job is to advertise for their coming fundraiser ball on September 27th in Washington DC.

Worse, he has reverted twice and will show no sign of being reasonable. He is acting like he owns the entire article.

I can almost see no action possible except to ask you to investigate or report this blatant manipulation by an organization to the media in a press release.

I am referring to UberCryxic.

This 19 year old man thinks that a Wikipedia article belongs to its namesake and, since the Tahirih Justice Center asked him to be their Wikipedia Webmaster, this young man who recently moved here from Albania just assumes he can revert, revert, revert when another tries to make a reasonable change.EnglishGarden 18:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to administrators: I am the person in question. However, I have told this user that my mother does not work at the Tahirih Justice Center. Furthermore, the article is Featured and will likely be on the Main Page this month. This user is being disruptive and has been accused of sockpuppetry by someone, though admittedly I don't know how well-founded the allegations are.UberCryxic 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, my name is Erald Kolasi and my mother's name is Roza Kolasi. Please do not make this personal. Thank you.UberCryxic 17:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please go here to find out what this user has posted about me. The material is highly personal and unnecessary.UberCryxic 18:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Erald's mother is a fundraiser volunteer for the Tahirih Justice Center. He has written a blatant fundraiser advertisement. Please check the changes I made. Here is the proof that she is a fundraiser/volunteer Mrs. Kolasi

Wikipedia should not allow this 19 year old to dominate an article that his mother is a fundraiser for. The press could be alerted to this. It is immoral. This young man needs to be banned or we need to start working together reasonably. EnglishGarden 18:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing could be more frightening than to see a 19 year old say that his blatant, one-sided article is featured and will be on the main page this month...and then watch him get away with this.EnglishGarden 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, I am trying to keep this as much away from the personal side of things as possible. I don't specifically know what my mother's involvement at the Benefit on the 27th will be (although I'll call her up and give you a multi-page report on it tomorrow), but I do know that your claim that she works at the organization is false. You stated that she works there. She does not.UberCryxic 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are still not disclosing whether there is financial remuneration in this for yourself. A 19 year old male isn't going to work hard as the webmaster of a Wikipedia article on a women's political organization in the Washington area whom his mother is a fundraiser/volunteer for...without some kind of interest. You were never harmed by an American male dating a foreign woman. Your interest is military history, etc. There is no reasonable explanation for your interest in the subject matter of this women's organization, except that you are getting financial remuneration from your mother who is a fundraiser for the organization. You are guarding the article like a lion. This shows that you fear that your webmaster job is at risk. You do not want to fail. You want to be congratulated. I'll bet you are planning to go to the fundraiser. - This is not funny Erald. This law is serious business and there is a lot of media attention about to come its way. The article must reflect that Tahirih is deeply involved in two lawsuits and that at least one newspaper article per week comes out critical of what Tahirih is doing. You must cease and desist acting like the article belongs to you as the webmaster. EnglishGarden 18:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I would be wary of editing articles where a conflict of interests might be presented. On one hand, you're a Wikipedia editor and must maintain NPOV when editing. On the other, it is your job, or a family member's job, to promote this organization. I would steer clear of the article if you're unable to be neutral. Furthermore, it is incorrect for you to assume bad faith in the complaining editor. He may have been accused of sock puppetry in the past, but that is niether here nor there. Please remain on topic. Regards to both, Shazbot85^Talk 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note The edits look more like User:EnglishGarden is trying to put his own brand of spin on the page. I'm not an administrator though, but that's as it appears to me, a fellow editor. Shazbot85^Talk 18:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Shazbot, your points are well taken, and I can certainly address them, but the main priority as of now should be to get EnglishGarden to stop making all of these personal allegations and references. That is completely unnecessary and contravenes the spirit of Wikipedia. It is also frankly making me irritated.UberCryxic 18:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand, but take it in good faith and brush it off, you'll be better off afterwards for it. If someone is making personal allegations that seem inflammatory to you, don't react to them as if they were or the goal of such hypothetical inflammatory statements has been reached, i.e. pissing you off. I'm not saying that is EnglishGarden's aim, I'm just providing some advice on how to deal with allegations. Refute what evidence is provided politely and civily, and the rest will take care of itself. The more banter taking place, the more muddled things get, and the more emotional people become. Regards, Shazbot85^Talk 18:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I would advise all concerned here to concentrate on the content, not the personalities. Maligning User:UberCryxic's motivations for editing the article gets nowhere. He certainly does not have to have a financial motive for editing it. In general we frown on 'outing' Wikipedia editors' real-world identities; to the degree that anyone is doing it, stop it.

Address the content issues and the behaviour issues, not the personalities. There are established dispute resolution procedures; if necessary, take further steps along those lines, but bear in mind that your own behaviour will also be at issue.

Wikipedians will be more persuaded by showing them what happened, rather than complaining. We will also be much happier if we see more evidence of trying to sort this out in non-combative ways. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well ultimately, I want personal information about me removed from that website. Otherwise, I don't see how this user, or whoever posted those things, should have any credibility.UberCryxic 18:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If there is additional criticism that is relevant, then it should be mentioned in the article. The problem that I have seen from looking at the article's history is the tone of the criticism, its placement and citations. Those things need to be fixed before they go into the article. It should be worked out on the talk page rather than reverting one another. Excluding the ill-placed criticisms, the article overall seems to be slightly biased in favor of the organization, but not irrepairably. -- Kjkolb 23:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Court documents are reputable citations and that is most of what I cited. Please send an editor over with Online Dating article experience.

This matter should have been solved by neutral editors getting actively involved and actually making the changes. Don't assume that I, as the critic, want to spend more than 5 minutes online and continue the discussion anywhere. The young people who hang out at Wikipedia are asked to look at the facts and make real edits to that article.

You can still do so by reading the reputable information I provided and overriding the webmaster, for instance, in noting that a restraining order for one dating website is, according to the 5th Amendment fairness clause, a restraining order on all similar dating websites. The IMBRA law is dead in the water and not saying so is major POV. Why does an editor love this law so much that he is willing to fight so hard to make it appear like the Tahirih Justice Center achieved a wonderful accomplishment in getting a law passed that was quickly restrained?

Sure, the current article is a good skeleton with which POV can be taken out in a few minutes. If that is what one means by "slightly biased", then the article is now only "slightly biased."

With all due respect, people with lives cannot be expected to consider themselves "Wikipedians" in terms of hanging out here more than 5 minutes per week. You cannot assume that outsiders are "extremists" unless you mean that, to a high school or college student who lives on Wikipedia, a lawyer who actually knows the subject under discussion would be an "extremist." I just noticed that a lawyer made a few changes to the article in question and Ubercryxic, who is 30 years younger than the lawyer, made a revert with a condescending remark. The lawyer had to go back to his practice and his family. There is no time for a busy professional with a family to deal with obdurate reverting behavior.

I have provided tons of reputable information. Please deal with this yourselves. The Tahirih Justice Center fundraiser is in two weeks and people will be deciding whether or not to donate a lot of money to an organization that openly states that it wants to destroy the online dating industry (according to the reputable source called the IMBRA law, the term "marriage broker" describes all dating sites where non-Americans are >50%).

Would Wikipedians let the KKK put up a brochure two weeks before their fundraiser? Let's be fair and make sure that Wikipedians themselves edit that article to remove pro-Tahirih POV.

Also: Why is it so hard for people to personal message with this Wikipedia software? There needs to be an upgrade to this software. There should be a central point where all Wikipedians interested in "Online Dating" can be asked to check something out. Older people don't have the patience to learn the "Dungeons & Dragons ideosyncracies of the current software.EnglishGarden 11:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Cyde has gone on a deletion spree of fifty-four vandalism-related pages; make note of the contents of his deletion log (copied here for ease of historical viewing, hidden for courtesy of the uninterested; yes I'm aware the Nav classes don't work in many browsers/skins):

The Willy on Wheels' non-wiki appearances subpage was the result of a MfD, as the Outoftuneviolin subpage, and unless I'm missing some sort of major event, at the moment those seem to be the only deletions that had any sort of legitimate justifications under the official deletion policy. As Cyde has not made any sort of declaration or announcement of his actions (a quick contribs glance proves that easily), I highly suspect he will defend himself with claims that he has "full community backing" in the matter, and definitely "there is no controversy over WP:DENY" will come up many times (getting any deja-vu yet?).

I'm just starting to feel sick at the sheer, sheer, sheer disrespect for process occuring here. ~ PseudoSudo 14:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to interject, some of us are starting to feel sick at the worshipful attitude towards process which is infecting Wikipedia like a fungus. Why did you think

WP:IAR was formulated in the first place? HTH HAND —Phil | Talk

15:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

IAR is about things for which we have no policy; it is cited by people who haven't good reasons for what they want to do. If I deleted that page, would it be a cute case of IAR, I wonder? Geogre 20:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

lol That's a good one. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The sooner we abandon it, the better. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You mean the worshipping process for its own sake, elevating it above the actual goals of the project, just so some people can get their jollies playing Junior-league Perry Mason? Hear hear! --Calton | Talk 17:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

When that occurs, we can deal with it. Until then, people who cite IAR are usually the ones playing to indifference and prejudice rather than reason. Geogre 20:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

TThe other relevent discussion is here: Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard#Indef blocked userpages - new policy and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Category:Wikipedia blocked imposters and all subcategories This is a coordinated effort to eventually get rid of all vandal pages and categories. Some of them can go, but some are useful (see ANI discussion above) however I feel that Doc and Cyde are ignoring that fact and will soon be pushing thier total deletion agenda on everything. Check their deletion logs. pschemp | talk 15:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh...that's disgusting. Such a gross level of out-of-process speedy deletions should be "rewareded" with immediate and permanant desysopping. jgp ^T_C 15:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's as disgusting as it would ever get, worse even than out-of-process userbox deletions... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, but I don't believe the deletions were at all out of process. Put simply, vandals shouldn't be given their own pages on Wikipedia. All vandals want is attention and those pages were giving it to them. Those pages were just adding fuel to the fire, so to speak. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 15:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying these pages should not be deleted, I'm saying these deletions are out of process, which is not the same thing. Yes, WP:DENY is an interesting essay, but it has to mature for some time before being applied. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Let's desysop him at once. because you know, Wikipedia is all about process. Screw the encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 15:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

While these deletions are out of process Cyde's actions are understandable (if a bit too speedy). I agree with others that vandals shouldn't be "rewarded" by having more Wikipedia infrastructure than is necessary utilized to properly manage their disruptions. I'm guessing that if need be Cyde can as easily unspeedy these deletions for proper review but at first glance his motivations are surely in the right place. (→Netscott) 15:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that he's just doing it and not really discussing it with anyone else (which is his "thing" anyway, if we recall, for instance, his stable version on Elephant action), I'm not even sure if we can say his motivations are surely in the right place. It seems to be that he's motivated to make things the way he wants them, and deal with the lack of consequences later. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that his apparent motivation to reduce vandal "rewarding" is out of place Badlydrawnjeff? I do not concur if that is the case. (→Netscott) 15:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm making no judgement call on the value or lack thereof, it's irrelevant to this. Given his track record, healthy skepticism is a requirement in my mind. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Administrative actions regarding meta-material such as this really don't seem — to me — to be worth wailing, gnashing of teeth, and shirt-ripping. Can we turn down the drama knob a bit? Nandesuka 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If this were an isolated incident, it'd be one thing. This is one in a list w/Cyde, and a demonstration that certain members learned nothing from the userbox debacle. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Sigh* "out of process" the wors possible crime to humankind. We should tear down oen of the 5 pillars over which wikipedia is built. -- Drini 15:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • And what pillar is "ignore everyone and do whatever you feel is best?" --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia's quality, ignore them." <-- actual policy. -- Drini 15:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Holy crap. IAR has never been policy until recently. Where was the discussion on this? That's absolutely absurd. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
        • IAR has never NOT been policy except for a brief lapse in attention that allowed it to be reclassified. Jimbo himself caught the change a couple weeks ago and had a fit. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
          • That's quite the extended "brief lapse." I don't think he knows the can of worms that opens. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
            • He may have opened the can, but you'll have to eat them worms. Mackensen (talk) 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

In which way these deletions improve WP's quality, I wonder... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Excercise left to the reader. submit before Monday 10:00 am. -- Drini 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation for those who don't get my point: Yes burn him!!!! 15:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Fine. You can have your damn pillar. Let's just allow corrupt admins to avoid doing pesky things such as "building consensus" (you know, the principle Wikipedia is supposed to be based on) before going off on massive deletion sprees. jgp ^T_C 04:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The real concern I have is where will this stop? Some need to be deleted, yes, but some are useful and that fact is being ignored. There is a perfect example of that on ANI right now, yet no one is talking about where the limits of the deletions are. pschemp | talk 15:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. A bit of rational discussion produces better results than stomping off on a crusade, almost every time. Friday (talk) 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Rational calls for desysoppings are usually better. -- Drini 15:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

OK look. I don't really care one bit about whether these deletions are in or out of process. Honest, I don't. And arguments that they are out of process truly miss the point, which is that we are getting some things tossed that we need kept, things that admins working hard to counteract sock vandals need to get their work done. I'm prepared to restore items that got deleted by mistake, without regard to DrV, and take the heat for it, if the case is made to me (in whatever manner you choose) that they're needful. This is starting to verge on throwing the baby out with the bathwater and arguing about whether it is in or out of process is itself wankery. (from both camps!) ++Lar: t/c 15:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Process is a means for determining community consensus; so is just plain talking. Let's decide if people think some of these pages are useful and restore them. -- SCZenz 15:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll start. I looked through the deleted pages, and none of them look useful to me. Anyone else? -- SCZenz 15:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Lar here. While these items are useless, I'd be in full support of they're being restored "out-of-process" if someone can present a valid and useful reason. Bastique▼^parler _voir 15:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Because, you know, community input isn't one. Is that how I should interpret this? --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You need a reason that you wish them restored, sir. Not just an objection to how they were deleted in the first place. -- SCZenz 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We have ways we go about doing these things, sir. An objection to how it was done tdue to lack of community input is an absolutely valid objection. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it's disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. If you want the pages back, talk about the pages. -- SCZenz 16:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like the only disruption at this point was the out of process deletion. Too bad you're supporting such nonsense. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree with Friday. I've been open about what I'm doing all along - hense my post up above yesterday solicitating comments. I've been listening for any rational objections. I've sent the categories to CfD for a full debate. But changing things round here is always a matter of being bold and talking at the same time. Boldness only and you get backs up, talk only and you go in circles. I sense a consensus is emerging. Sure, it will need to be tweeked - a case for keeping some of the vandal-forensics may exist (I've yet to hear it tough). Nothing I've done is irreverable - although no-one has reversed anything yet.--

15:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Doc, here is one

Wikipedia:Long term abuse/MascotGuy that *is* useful, right now. Why? Because the people fighting that vandal said they need it. It is covered by your proposal to delete all LTA pages. It's been pointed out to you multiple times I think, although maybe you missed it. If it gets deleted, in or out of process, I'll speedy restore it on request, and to the devil with process. I'm turning my process wonk badge in, I think. I say that and yet I am totally in agreement with losing memorialising things, we don't need them. ++Lar: t/c

16:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For my part I completely support the spirit of what Cyde and Doc are doing. There is absolutely no sense in keeping monuments to vandals around just because we can't muster a supermajority on MFD to delete them. Any pages that are of actual ongoing utility to people dealing with vandalism are another matter, but it is unclear to me that these monuments are in fact useful in this fashion. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The case discussed at AN right now is an LTA page that was recently useful in convincing some admins that a new editor was in fact an old vandal. That's an excellent use of the LTA concept. No one needs an LTA page for Willy any more, page move vandalism is obvious and doesn't require investigation. We also don't need to categorize vandals except in the cases of subtle vandals that require investigation, and we don't need vandal templates as long as a reasonable summary is included in the block log ("page move vandal", "attack user name", etc.) Too much of the anti-vandal tagging and categorizing is about scorekeeping, and obvious vandals don't need to be tracked or counted. Just block and move on. I support 90% of these deletions and I would recommend that if any LTA pages that are needed for the more subtle vandals are deleted, to undelete them and make a note on the page/talk page.

Thatcher131 (talk)

16:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"There is absolutely no sense in keeping monuments to vandals around just because we can't muster a supermajority on MFD to delete them.".

I see. We can't get a consensus on MFD, so let's delete 'em with no consenus. I'm afraid the implications of such a logic are quite far-reaching - and a little bit terrifying to say the least. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 16:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is the MfD page where there is no consensus for deleting? Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Willy on Wheels 2 was overwhelming consensus in favor of deleting. Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal was closed keep because it was initiated by a troll, not based on the page itself. There are several CfDs in favor of deleting. Perhaps there could have been a few more MfDs to clarify the support of the matter, but there is no good reason to require posting all 54 of these pages to MfD. If any of them were deleted erroneously, they can be restored. —Centrx→talk • 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So take it upon your own shoulders to undelete the set and list it under one single, five-day MfD; no one has objections for multiple pages on a nom. ~ PseudoSudo 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as one who deals with sockpuppets, keeping these kinds of pages really isn't very helpful, and I wholly support removing them. The things that vandals do--page blanking, page moves, insertion of inappropriate material--are readily recognizable as things which are bad for the encyclopedia and should be reverted. We don't need these monuments and shrines. I wholly support getting rid of them. Badlydrawnjeff is laboring under the mistaken idea that vandal pages have something to do with encyclopedia and fall under the rules which govern content. They don't. They're cruft. The community exists to serve the encyclopedia. You're here to serve the encyclopedia. If it's good for the encyclopedia it stays. If it isn't then it goes. If you don't agree with these propositions then you'd better go too, because you're here for the wrong reasons. Now, there is space for a debate as to whether these are useful and should be kept. The recent CfD debates suggest a general consensus to delete most of them, to the horror of vandals. Cyde, as always, has perhaps been exuberant in his interpretation of events. He does that. He also might be right. Instead of quibbling over process, let's ask whether he's right that we should nuke these pages. Mackensen (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Save for the LTA pages etc. (as necessary) Doc and Cyde are right. Less vandal monumentalizing and more encyclopedic work. (→Netscott) 16:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's funny, if he didn't act so rashly, we'd not be "vandal monumentalizing" to begin with. If you want more "encyclopedic work," start restraining the people who drag us away from it with their unilateral actions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I always giggle when I see someone call admin actions "unilateral" - as if some of us have a lil monkey on our shoulder that presses the delete button the same time we do :) FWIW, I have yet to see any argument for keeping the pages and I support the deletions. Shell ^babelfish 16:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, you've got, by far more comments on this topic than anyone. Nobody is dragging you from anything but yourself. Bastique▼^parler _voir 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Damn straight I do. I'm also not the one preaching about doing more "encyclopedic work." --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I for one support deletion of all vandal trophy-cabinets. They glorify wrongdoing, and very likely do more harm than good. Vandals are vermin and should be reverted, blocked, and otherwise ignored. I also agree with Mackensen that there may be a few cases where forensic information is useful, but it is in a small minority of vandal pages: we need to discuss which may be in this category. Antandrus (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Mackensen, the thing is, where is a new user going to find information about a "prominent" (for lack of a better word) vandal if he runs into one? For example, how was I going to find out, back when I was a newbie, to look for the tell-tale signs of WoW? Or better yet, if I hadn't had found the page where it was documented, wouldn't I have been a bit unprepared to be an admin? Where would we have written the IP information when it came to the Squidward vandal a while back? IIRC, someone used it to make some phone calls to the ISP. I do agree that sometimes these pages are created unnecesarily, but it feels like you're throwing the baby along with the bathwater, and that many of these pages should not have been deleted. At the same time, explosive and spectacular antics like those seen here just distracts those who are actually trying to edit articles for a while and run into the latest meta-turf war. Titoxd^(?!?) 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So, should we delete most of

16:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, but this is exactly the threshold that needs to be debated. There's a difference in quality and scope: for example, some of the dedicated pages have their own logos and art work for specific vandals. This is the glorification that needs to go. Google also picks up these individual pages. Antandrus (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone want to take this to deletion review? --Ixfd64 07:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow (pun intended), lots of heat, some light emerging - dons asbestos suit and medium strength sunglasses. Let's

WP:DENY

. This has been decried as circumvention of process and has upset some people. That's the heat.

The light that's emerging seems to be a general recognition that the vandals should not be rewarded with immortalisation by whatever means (category, own LTA page, templates, specific logo's etc), but that some of the LTA pages are actually useful for dealing with the problems while still current. I would agree with that and suggest that a simplified heirarchy is adopted for the whole vandal fighting infrastructure:

• No "imposter of Vandal X on Wheels" categories and other vandal / sock / username block categories whatsoever. Just maintain a single indefblock category.
• A single template for indefblocked Users pages {{indefblockeduser}}. No "Sockpuppet of ...", "Impersonator of ..." templates etc. The block log should be explicit as to the reasons for the indef block, nothing more is needed, placing it in the single indefblock category.
• LTA pages should be created if required to deal with serious vandalism, but deleted when the immediate threat posed has clearly subsided.

Perhaps over simplistic, but the current infrastructure is out of control. I think we need to head back towards first principles, simplify the process and eliminate the free publicity which many of these juveniles seek and which keeps them coming back in their droves. Just my 50p worth :-) --Cactus.man ✍ 08:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm late to this discussion. I'm also not a fan of the vandal glorification pages and am quite pleased to see them gone. Process, however, would have been fairly easy to follow here by means of an MfD on the lot -- which would pretty much have been the discussion that eventually happened here, and seems to be in favour of the deletion of the pages? -- Samir धर्म 09:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

IAR

On Ignore All Rules: The concept is important to Wikipedia. The nature of the concept makes it fundamental to the working of Wikipedia. It has a long tradition, and deep and subtle meaning.

In other words, the capability of not doing everything by-the-process is fundamental to wikipedia. That's why it's a pillar. But again, that's only crazy jimbo opinion -- Drini 16:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not a pillar, per se, simply a Jimbo decree, and one that we'd hope taht the rest of us in the trenches would have grown out of. "Long deep tradition" doesn't mean it makes sense now, and perhaps a wider discussion is in order since people are interpreting things the way they are. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been a pillar for a long time. IT's the 5th pillar and has existed much before this (it was here when I joined a half and year ago). Jimbo just reinforced its policy status. I know you find it disturbing, but that's the way it is. You may want to make it stop being policy, go ahead and try. But now it IS policy. It is supported by jimbo (who's higher than even arbcomm), and we're following policy. Now, I think the discussion about the desysopping has ended, and if there are other topics, they can be discussed at proper places. -- Drini

16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting the pillar for your own agenda here. We don't have firm rules because we come to decisions largely on consensus, have no binding decisions, and our policies are fluid with the times. Now, I don't think the discussion is over about desyssopping - at some point, the community's patience with Cyde is over, and we may be very close to that point. Hiding behind IAR doesn't address the overbearing situation. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We're makign progress. YUou know acknoledge it's a pillar. And all policies MUST derive from the pillars. I think you're the one with the agenda, trying to mislead people thinking that IAR is not a pillar and it's not policy, and that was just recently added by jimbo, all of three claims being false. -- Drini 16:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, actually. I do not acknowledge that IAR is a pillar, I do not mislead anyone because IAR is not a pillar, and IAR was NOT a policy as listed until very recently. I was wrong about it not being a policy, absolutely, but that's because, well, it wasn't until it got snuck back in. I'll work to change that, but the other two, no, I do not agree with your interpretation one bit. I question your ability to administer with this in mind, knowing what I know now. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, I'm blocking you for 3 hours so you can calm down. When you return, please keep your rhetoric firmly in check, and maintain civility. Nandesuka 16:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this block. pschemp | talk 16:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this block. What has he done that wasn't civil? Disagreeing with popular opinion isn't auotmatically incivil. --W.marsh 16:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That is absolutely uncalled for; can you provide diffs of disruption? ~ PseudoSudo 16:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. He's (fairly civilly) expressing his disagreement; are we blocking people for merely that now? Kirill Lokshin 16:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff is getting on my nerves. I do not think, however, that is grounds for blocking and agree with W.marsh. Bastique▼^parler _voir 16:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The only thing annoying is this pushing for dysysoping Cyde bit (aren't RfC's and ArbCom for that sort of talk?) but I agree with others that he shouldn't be blocked. (→Netscott) 17:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been unblocked, and of course I will not re-block him. I remind him, however, that he should be addressing arguments to topics, and not ad hominem. Nandesuka 17:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

(Quadruple Edit Conflict)

16:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not. It is just a good idea. That's enough. --

Doc

17:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So if it's a good idea, why don't we try to convince people of it and make it an acceptable policy guideline instead of forcing it? I have no issue with the idea, either, but, obviously, a lot of other people do. Didn't we learn anything from the userbox charade? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that some people spend far too much time on things that don't involve the encyclopedia. Mackensen (talk) 17:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am indeed starting to wonder what you did learn from that affair. I sure didn't learn that process takes precedence over all else. Rather, it demonstrated that both blind adherence to process and blind being-stupid are harmful, and can form the two sides of a wheel war. Common sense is what is called for, and it is never always process or always ignoring it. The proper way to carry on a discussion in our hopefully common sense-based community is to argue the merits, not the process, of the situation.

t

17:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally? I saw that policy by fiat causes situations to be resolved in a matter of months, with lots of waiting and gnashing of teeth, regardless of its merits, while a rational discussion before action can often come to the same desired conclusion harmoniously. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, you saw in the userbox wars that a rational discussion before action can come to the desired conclusion harmoniously? Did I miss the part where that happened?

My non-facetious point, which I don't wish to lose in the tone there, is that the idea that policy can be hammered out in discussion without testing through bold application and vigorous participation in the resulting discussions, is an untested hypothesis, and one that I don't find at all compelling. Wikipedia is a little bit like laws and sausage - the squeamish ought not to watch them being made. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think rational discussion was ever seriously attempted, not that massive deletions would have helped the case. I do see many controversial policies work via discussion and consensus, however - for instance, CSD A7 is a great example. Even WP:BLP, which I'm not a huge fan of, didn't occur overnight. The policy was created as the issues were discussed and slowly implemente. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't have been handled the same way, especially given the amount of work people put in regarding combating vandalism. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the userbox situation wasn't handled all that well. I like to think that a few of us were attempting rational discussion, but there was enough noise to drown most of that out. I don't know much about the background of A7 or

WP:BLP. I know Jimbo asked us, as a community, to discuss the reasons that userboxes are a bad idea, but most people couldn't be bothered to have those discussions, and many who tried found themselves sidetracked and running after red herring after red herring about censorship and disclosure of bias and everything else. I wish more people saw more value in more communication. -GTBacchus^(talk

) 20:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No one is forcing anything. I posted to this board and spelled out what I was doing and asked for any reasoned objections. I sent the categories to CSD, where an overwhelming consensus (almost unanimous) is agreeing with my analysis. I'm sorry if I didn't jump through whatever procedural hoop you think I ought to - but consensus is clearly with me. Otherwise, I'd have stopped, or been reverted. THat's how things work round here. That's policy and consensus in action. Don't tell me there's lack of debate - we're debating it everywhere, and we are clearly winning the arguments. You are in a minority here. I don't claim IAR as a justification - I claim common sense and consensus--

Doc

17:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, some of us can't revert you, which is part of the problem. It's not really policy and consensus in action, but I know that you and I have fundamentally different ideas as to how things should go here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this discussion here should end. There is no malfeasiance here, by anyone, that is so clear-cut that it calls for quick administrative action; thus this is the wrong page. Discussions of whether

17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. Except for the part about nandesuka blocking Badlydrawnjeff, that belongs here in any case. I find Jeff's comments in this matter not very helpful and swimming against the tide but I am not sure I support that block, and want to voice my opposition (even though it's been lifted). It feels like a block by someone involved in a content dispute to me. ++Lar: t/c 18:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the concern, but I was unblocked, he's not reblocking, and it happens. It got reversed easily, as I wish most wrong decisions would be, and it's a done deal on this end. I have no ill will toward him, and I don't intend to push that issue further - mistakes are made, and he's stated that he's not going to reblock. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Expressing disagreement with a policy or pseudo-policy is never a reason for a block, not even temporarily. I am both appalled and disappointed by this administrative action. At no time has badlydrawnjeff been uncivil throughout this thread. Silensor 18:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. It was an absolute shocker. But since an apology has been made and no hard feelings appear to be present, the debate moves on. Badgerpatrol 18:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this a User:General Tojo-related discussion? I never really saw much practical use for the vandal-tagging. I sometimes create redirects for some block-evading ips, mostly for my own memory. Why not just create redirects when needed? El_C 19:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

DRAMA!!! That's what we want to see! Nuke all worthless pages.--MONGO 20:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

(3X Edit Conflict) The problem is a lack of documentation.

20:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Essays are used some decisions. I've seen

04:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That should emphatically not be allowed. IMO, any deletion debate that's closed per WP:SNOW deserves an immediate DRV. jgp ^T_C 04:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Some essays are interpretations or extrapolations of other policies and guidelines that are heavily contingent or tentative or not fast-fixed, and there is also a difference between a truly personal essay someone just posted, and a more general explanatory essay agreed by many people. —Centrx→talk • 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Criminy! I only have to write a persuasive essay to get my way? Cool! Why have I been waiting around trying to get people to agree with me, before? I have lots and lots and lots of ideas that I can turn into essays. One of them is "Those who cite IAR are out of arguments and afraid of discussion." I can expand on that for a full screen. This has made my day! Geogre 12:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Hehehe - kind of hit the nail on the head there Geogre ... --Cactus.man ✍ 22:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything offensive or harmful to the encyclopedia in what Cyde is doing. Metamagician3000 03:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

He is censoring. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly right, Geogre. I know you've done it before with varying amounts of success. If I were to really really disagree with your essay, I'd just write a counter-essay, but often you do write wise words. Did you know the "how to apply Ignore All Rules" and Bold Revert Discuss pages yet? If you hadn't, I suggest taking a look there before you start typing, perhaps they already cover much of what you're saying? That might save some time. :-) -- Kim Bruning 13:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ignore All Rules analysis

For an admin to ignore all rules, they need to provide a clear motivation and document why they are ignoring particular guidelines and following others.

In this case, that motivation and documentation was provided at

. So it's not true that Cyde is trying to avoid explaining hir actions.

and apply new guidelines anytime you like. You do have to expect to negotiate with people on the best way to apply them, and you do have to expect things won't go perfectly.

As per

, "Out of process" is not a valid excuse to oppose any such action. You will have to provide solid logical arguments why your idea is superior to the solution chosen. Since we're talking about a process you're intimately familiar with, this should not be a problem. If you fail to logically argue your position (even with such a large advantage), then that process deserves to be overruled.

When you do have logical arguments for and/or against, please document them at

and its talk page. What things did Cyde do right, what did he do wrong? Problems are inevitable when applying some new guideline. Try to help Cyde sort them out.

Of course, if the guideline is not viable at all, we'll find that out quickly enough too, and we document that, and people won't take this kind of action in future.

The bottom line is that if you think that following process is important, it still matters *which* process to be following right now, and how correct is that process? We have a process for things happening out of process. Follow it!

Kim Bruning 12:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

A round of applause please! Very nice analysis, AFAIC anyway. --kingboyk 13:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Except WP:BOLD deals with articles. Policy pages/guidelines aren't articles. Also, even if WP:BOLD dealt with policy and guideline pages, there's that little "don't be reckless" part. We're at a point where we, as a community, should be able to move away from "ignoring all rules," because there's plenty of input which wasn't necessarily there when IAR was incorporated. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Bold has often been applied to guidelines (Radiant used it there often). Bold Revert Discuss certainly applies to guidelines. I've already pointed out that Cyde was not reckless, because the reasons for his actions are well documented. Your concerns wrt Ignore All Rules itself may or may not be valid, but they're not relevant here and now. I'm certainly willing to discuss them with you elsewhere and/or later, of course! Please stick to discussing the logic of Cyde's actions right now. Kim Bruning 13:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Did someone throw some stuff out of the window? I haven't noticed a difference myself. --Alf ^melmac 22:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

RfC

I think it would be more apporite to contiune this disscusion at RfC instead on the adimn notice board.---Scott3 _{Talk Contributions Count: 950+} 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WHerever it takes place I'm tired of seeing admins go off willy-nilly and take unilateral action undiscussed on controversial topics claiming IAR all the way along. Its conceivably the worst pillar or policy or guideline or whatever that has ever been created because honestly its a defense for any kind of behaviour you want to exhibit. If I want to be uncivil and flame and attack everyone up and down, hey IAR right? 3RR? I don't agree with those edits, IAR you can't block me. No. It doesn't work that way. --

Crossmr

20:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Reguest for Page Protection failed.

15:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I too request protection but from user 'HolyRomanEperor' who continues to push for his nationalistic version. Althought the consensus was reached and user 'Pannonian' wrote an excellent article the user'HRE' after being deblocked/unbanned returns again to start another flame/edit war. I suggest something to be done about this person, thank you. Afrika 04:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to

HolyRomanEmperor

15:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is you who should refer to the talk page instead of posting your nationalistic crap. I plead once again - please protect the Pagania article with Pannonian's version and remove this person from Wikipedia. Thank you. Afrika 18:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks. --

HolyRomanEmperor

17:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is you who are attacking me not the other way around.Afrika 18:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Calling people "completly derranged" is a Personal Attack according to

HolyRomanEmperor

18:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: while my account was temporarely disabled because I had fallen victim to a [User:HRE rather unamusing prank],

HolyRomanEmperor

16:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

While I was blocked for 3 hours for breaking the rule of editing more than 3 times in one day you habe been completl blocked and banned. Now after unbanning you return again to push "your version" of the article which was discarced. This is public site and you cannot enforce your version without the consensus of all...consensus was reached and it is not the version you push for. Afrika 18:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect. I requested the ban and block and continued under

HolyRomanEmperor

17:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not "enforce it"...I just mentioned it. It's there for everyone to see it...it's not my fault you got banned. Sorry. Afrika 23:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I was gonna take this to

) 22:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No not really, I'd be happy to username block it. General policy on email usernames:

"E-mail addresses: Using your e-mail address as your username is not a good idea. Wikipedia content is extensively copied and the site itself is one of the most visited sites in the world. Any edit you make on Wikipedia will have your username attached to it, and using your email address will make you a tempting target for

Petros471

22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone else beat me to it (block).

Petros471

22:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You people are too sensitive. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've left the blocking admin the following:

Howdy! I see that you blocked

WP:BITE. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎

) 01:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't work out why this fellow has been blocked. Could someone explain? --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I would block such an account (with {{

WP:U. Prodego ^talk

01:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How is it inflammatory? We have many FedEx folks who are quite sexy both before and after they make their rounds. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cretanpride blocked for sockpuppetry

I have blocked Cretanpride (

talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). Since I have become involved in the case (previously discussed here) I'm mentioning the block here, in case anyone disputes it or thinks that I have a conflict of interest. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs

) 03:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Update: MegasAllexandros is contesting the block on his

talk page; note that he doesn't exactly didn't immediately deny that he's Cretanpride. I'll let someone else respond to the unblock request. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs

) 04:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note left. Mackensen (talk) 11:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good one. :-) [111]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Cretanpride's seems to already back, this time with the name User:Heraklis, an account created this morning, that has concentrated his interests exactly where I thought his socks would strike, that is the few articles Cretanpride's socks had created or considerably edited. Just to be sure, I'll ask checkuser to make a control. If he's confirmed, what would you propose to do? Lengthen the block to three months, or ban him indefinitely?--Aldux 10:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Egnp mass tagging blocked users

I ran into a very unusual account just now.

Thatcher131 (talk)

16:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've seen this happen frequently (daily?) and mistakenly reported one to AIV. I'm guessing it's somebody volunteering to tag all the blocked vandals, but it seems each day it's a newly created user with no other history doing the tagging. Curious as to why. Fan-1967 16:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've suggested on Egny's talk page that he/she explain what was the purpose of these edits so perhaps someone can channel these efforts in a more productive direction. Newyorkbrad 17:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Which message may not even be seen. If this is a single purpose account, it was done 45 minutes ago, and may be abandoned until a new one shows up tomorrow. Fan-1967 17:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

We'll see. If I wasted 30 seconds trying to reach out to someone who wasn't there, I can live with that. Newyorkbrad 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I don't want to assume bad faith, but I've seen a lot of this. New users creating userpages for nil-edit blocked accounts, and often attributing them as sock puppets of some notorious vandal. In at least one case the user doing the tagging was revealed (by checkuser) to be a serial vandal himself. Personally, I think we need to stop people creating userpages for nil/low-edit accounts. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose, creates unneccessary pages, and draws attention to the vandal. --

Doc

21:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Now there's an interesting point. A tagger turned out to be a vandal themselves? More fuel to the fire in the great

masterka

21:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated the othr day, I've just been deleting the userpages. --

Doc

21:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As part of WP:DENY that I agree with (I don't agree with seeing random LTA subpages deleted without forethought, especially certain ones), but they've been doing this for awhile, and seem to be quite decisive at knowing that certain accounts are certain vandals identities. For this, I think there's a small group of them organized from somewhere trying to see who can create the most offensive/annoying accounts to be blocked as possible. Their tagging should be considered part of the vandalism.

Kevin_b_er

01:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible attack page on Drini.

Hello this users page User:ShortJason is calling for Drini to be desysoped. This page was also transcluded into drini's page in order to vandalise it (by User:Preserve Policy). I'm not sure of AN/I is correct for this or not. I have politely asked several times for the user to remove the material from his userspace and informed him it could be considered an attack page now. I feel that having such a page may cause additional and needless problems. I will of course understnad if you all feel that this is not the right place to list this. If so let me know so I will nto make such a mistake in the future. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 21:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into it. Prodego ^talk 21:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou. Belatedly I figured out that it is an personal attack on Drini not an Attack Page by policy. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 21:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. ;-) I have blanked the user page, and Tony Sidaway conflicted with my deleting the subpage. It is gone either way though. Prodego ^talk 21:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced the page constituted a personal attack. If the user had made the comment at ANI for instence or filed an RfC we would have little objection to the wording. It isn't clear to me why it should therefore be considered a personal attack when it is on his user page. Saying an admin made a mistake is not a personal attack, nor is saying that the admin should be desysoped for the mistake a personal attack by itself. I think the user is wrong and not focusing on the encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean his page needs to be removed. JoshuaZ 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your help Prodego! Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 21:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No, but creating a userbox saying "This user supports the removal of Drini" is certainly a personal attack. With that in mind I decided the intention of the user page was the same. Prodego ^talk 21:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Which was how I felt about it as well. Reason I asked him to removed the content. And after several attempts to convince him I requested SYSOP support. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 21:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Understood. Consider my objections withdrawn. JoshuaZ 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

He's also editing from an open proxy ([112]) -- \ \ \ \ Antandrus (talk) 22:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

...which I just blocked. Hm, sockpuppetry and vandalism in order to complain about the deletion of a counter-vandalism page. Antandrus (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't see how calling for the removal of an admin is "certainly a personal attack". Making a userbox was probably dumb and counter-productive but not a personal attack. As for the accusations of sock-puppetry and vandalism, what evidence is there that

Nscheffey^(T/C

) 23:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't need any. If a user's first edit is vandalism of a userpage, and is also an edit through an open proxy, there's two reasons for immediate indefinite block. No good-faith newbie does those things. Antandrus (talk) 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Antandrus is right- either a vandalism-only account or editing thru an open proxy is bad enough, but both at once is just too much. No problem at all with a block-on-sight for that. However it's also worth noting as above that calling for the removal of admin is not a personal attack, it's criticism, and we'd all do well to remember the difference. Friday (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I understand that

Nscheffey^(T/C

) 00:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Also I didn't mean to imply that User:Preserve Policy and User:ShortJason are the same (don't have any evidence either way, just a hunch they're not). The sockpuppet is just a garden-variety troublemaker, imho. Antandrus (talk) 00:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree with those who have noted that calling for an admin's desysopping is not – in and of itself – a personal attack, nor is the simple request or desire blockworthy. However, the manner in which it is done is very important. The right way is to employ some or all of the steps at

WP:DR

, remaining calm civil at all times. Approaching the admin first is important, as is discussing the matter in an appropriate forum (RfC or WP:AN/I) if polite one-to-one conversation fails. If those steps fail to resolve the issue, Arbitration is typically the last step.

Note that none of those steps involve the creation of a let's-rassle-up-a-posse-and-string-'em-up userbox. Recruiting a lynch mob is never an acceptable method of dispute resolution, and is blockworthy as eminently disruptive behaviour that runs counter to our goals here. That the editor has started creating sockpuppets and editing from open proxies to continue his crusade adds weight and merit to the initial decision to block. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. There are appropriate dispute resolution mechanisms available, but trying to propagate a userbox like that goes far beyond the limits of acceptable attempts at resolving disputes. -- Samir धर्म 02:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, where is the evidence that ShortJason is "creating sockpuppets and editing from open proxies,"? --

Nscheffey^(T/C

) 02:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible image copyright problems

Not vandalism, but User:JoeDestructive seems to be uploading a lot of images that appear to be movie stills, and marking them as self-created, public domain. Can someone please take a look at this? -- The Anome 00:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

(On review) Yes, all the images seem to have similar problems. -- The Anome 00:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible

WP:USERNAME

??

Cracker (pejorative) (according to users Treebark and Wandering Star, anyway); has deleted one such warning from their userpage [113] (with a contemptuous edit summary), and edits the article on Margaret Cho, which additionally brings up concerns re: the username. I'm not too conversant with the policy on this. I notice that there is a ban on names of well-known living people, as well a ban on using "creative substitutions" to abuse the above rule, as well as "defamatory" usernames. (Note that "choad

" is a vulgar epithet meaning "a penis".)

I am curious as to whether the username constitutes a violation of

WP:USERNAME. Thanks, Kasreyn

02:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, go ahead and block it under the username policy. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's an obvious unfunny pun on a very vulgar Hindi word. The Margaret Cho joke has been made many times by those who speak Hindi. I've blocked indefinitely -- Samir धर्म 02:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I'm flattered by your confidence in me, but I am not an administrator. ^_^;; Kasreyn 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI: I just blocked

GIen

03:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be justifiable to conclude that a sockpuppeteer is at work? Kasreyn 03:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:PEAR

Anyone remember that thread about this editor about a month ago? He just transformed into a full-blown vandal account: PEAR (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). I only blocked for 24 hours, since he has a history of some good work, but... what's up with this person? Antandrus (talk) 02:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Old thread is here [[114]]. Antandrus (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You got your block in about 5 seconds before I could. I was going for a 1 week block. Redirecting

Nazi is not something you do by accident, especially given his string of edits today. He started going off the rails a couple of days ago. My guess is this is a "sleeper" acount, trying to build up a good reputation in the hope we'd deal with him less harshly when he started his vandalism spree. Gwernol

02:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Could well be ... (my first guess was it was Friday night and he's had a couple too many). Feel free to change the block length if you feel it's appropriate (you or anyone else). Antandrus (talk) 02:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to leave the current block and see what happens tomorrow. If he starts up with the same sort of vandalism again I'd go for a significnatly longer block on sight. There's always a chance he's a little worse for wear (that was my second choice of explanation) and will regret it in the morning. Gwernol 02:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Giano & WP:CIVIL Redux

I just read through the archived User: Gianot & WP:Civil section above and feel a tad compelled to say something. As a fairly new user who is still baffled and bewildered by the workings and nonworkings of Wikipedia, I feel as if I just read the transcript of a grade school yard dispute. "He said blah. Yeah, but she called me blah first. No, she didn't. Did too!" Excuse me. Has everyone here forgotten what your saintly mothers told you? Sticks and stones can break your bones, but personal attacks will NEVER hurt you. Kids, grow up. Worry more about the falsehoods and George Bush-quality English that's pooring into Wikipedia like water over the dikes of the New Orleans. That's what can really hurts us. Askolnick 03:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I imagine you mean "pouring". ;) Metamagician3000 05:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, best to leave it there. Metamagician3000 06:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.

Bogus Sprotect Tags Posted by Vandal

132.241.246.111 (listed amongst suspected sockpuppets of Grazon) has inserted a bogus “{{sprotect}}” into the article on Madge Oberholtzer:

attack

and another into that on D. C. Stephenson:

attack

and yet another to that on Timothy_McVeigh:

attack

This comes as part of a more general programme of prowling around Wikipedia to remove facts that are unfortunate for the party that he favors, and to spin or falsify other articles to disparage opposing political groups.

He has also tried to confuse the situation by adding my present IP number to the list of suspected sockpuppets of Grazon.

If you will examine his history of edits and his block log, then you'll see that he has been treated with great indulgence for a long time. —75.13.99.82 03:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I don't know what the drill is for removing that “suspected sock puppet” thing. If an administrator could examine the charge and (on the presumption that I'm found innocent) remove the thing, then I'd appreciate it. —75.13.99.82 04:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Move page war on Kitty Pryde

Page has been moved back and forth three times in the past day. Request move protection to stop the war and would like to reopen the debate, as only three people said to move it. Hbdragon88 04:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll add more on this later (as time permits), but the proper name should be used. In this case, Katherine Pryde would be approperiate, with Shadowcat and "Kitty" Pryde redirecting to Katherine Pryde. Katherine Pryde is the name of the character as stated in the biography. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 05:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

With some reluctance, I've protected the page. I'm not going to leave it like that forever, but you guys really need to sort it out on the talk page rather than moving the page back and forth ... so you're stuck with it as I found it until the dispute calms down a bit. If someone wants to re-open the debate, do it there on the talk page. Although I simply protected the version I found, rather than deciding what I think is the "right" version, this one does seem to have most support at the moment. Those wanting something different really should try to persuade others rather than reverting and conveying their reasons in edit summaries, as has been happening. Metamagician3000 07:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that the discussion (started on August 12) was closed on August 18 by a non-sysop, who then proceded to do a cut-and-paste move to Kitty Pryde. This was reverted, and the page was not properly moved until August 27, where it was reverted; and then for the recent move page war on September 1 and September 2. Hbdragon88 07:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

new vulag personal attack

once again there is a personal attack on me, see (reverted) Reconcilee, where Koukal is my real name; it was posted by User:Židák Koukal where Židák is a very vulgar expression for Jews. See also [115] Thanks, -jkb- 08:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked -- Samir धर्म 10:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

thx, -jkb- 10:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Tonycdp (talk · contribs)

This user left some defamatory comments on my talk page a few days ago in Spanish, basically calling me a liar. At the time I decided against issueing a {{npa2}} warning and just replied to him in the same language, trying to make him realise that I do not tolerate personal attacks, though assuming good faith and using a conciliatory tone. Today he proceeded to revert my comments, using the edit summary "Wanker thinks he's clever". I dropped an npa2 this time. He then proceeded to revert this, with another even more offensive edit summary: Cabron (meaning

WP:PAIN in any case. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?}

14:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Username Block on suspected VW Sock

• Could I please get a username block on
  pm_shef
  15:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The user has made three edits to articles related to Ontario, one on Vaughan. None of the edits appear to be controversial (adding a wikilink or two and removing website owner info (which I agree with).) The pattern is not apparent.
    Assuming good faith, this editor has not shown a reason for blocking, and in fact has not revealed a reason to label him as VaughanWatch's sockpuppet. — ERcheck (talk
    ) 17:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• I strenuously disagree. The edit pattern is exactly the same as VW's smarter sockpuppets. If you feel its necessary to wait, fine, but the pattern is the same, and the username is a dead giveaway. Give it a week and the bias will be apparent just like the rest of VW's farm. --
  pm_shef
  19:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Vasilycus and Rockhurst High School

• We need a username block on Vasilycus for his edits on the Rockhurst High School article. His vandalisms consist of persistent "shout outs" and other non-sense that has no place here. Pat 16:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• User has a history of nonsense shoutouts. Timing coincidentally seems to coincide with ending with the school year and starting back up with a new school year. Temporarily blocked. If vandalism continues after block expires, recommend perm block. — ERcheck (talk) 17:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Ultramarine and use of images to disrupt talk pages

On many talk pages, both article, user and administrative, Ultramarine frequently violates

WP:POINT

by inserting so many large images as to disrupt discussion. In many case, she will insert the same image many times in the same discussion, essentially accompanying each new post by another copy of the same image. The images she inserts are ones of nominal connection to the talk page topic, although in most cases the connection is extremely tenuous. But it's not the sort of thing of inserting obscene or offensive pictures: usually it's charts and graphs which she perceives to somehow be relevant to some point she wishes to make.

For example, on Talk:Capitalism, Ultramarine has advocated inclusion of a certain chart she personally created on "GDP growth over 2000 years" which she (but no other editor) wishes to include in the corresponding article. The chart itself is both original research and non-relevant to the article; but it is just barely related enough that proposing inclusion is a sensible topic of discussion. But when she fails to win any support for inclusion of her chart from adding many copies of the same chart, she starts adding other completely irrelevant ones, purportedly in some effort to show something about "the nature of charts" or something. But it makes the talk page look like a grafitti wall. It's not actually the worst example, but look at this version of the talk page: [116]

Besides three copies of the GDP chart, it also has one on "carbon emmissions", one on "population growth" and one on "glacier retreat", each less relevant than the last. I have tried to address this by converting the excessive and distracting use of images by converting them to {{linkimage}} templates or escaped [[:Image:Foobar.png]] links (never deleting caption content, even where also repetivite). I have also patiently explained many times why this creates less disruption of talk pages; e.g. at [117]. Ultramarine always reverts these condensations and/or just inserts even more charts.

Moreover, after she fails to win support for inclusion of her repeated charts in the article, she spills over inserting it to completely unrelated pages. For example, on the talk page of

WP:NOR she also inserted multiple copies of the same GDP chart, I suppose under the thought that if editors saw it enough times they would start believing it was not original research. Lessee, it's a little hard to sort out that high-volume page and the various partial archiving, but look at Wikipedia talk:No original research/Primary v. secondary sources discussion

. That's an archive of the discussion thread where a couple copies of Ultramarine's GDP chart is randomly inserted.

It is not just this one article topic, or this one run of charts that is the problem. Just about everwhere I've seen Ultramarine edit she does exactly the same thing of littering talk pages with images in an effort to "shout louder" than other editors. This is one of her editing habits that makes it almost impossible to productively edit any page she goes near. LotLE×talk 17:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Question...is

Indices of Economic Freedom an agreed spin-off, or is it a POV fork?--MONGO

17:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like that article is Ultramarine's recent pet project, and a bit POV-ish in tone. But I don't have any special concern about that article existing. The topic itself seems worth encyclopia coverage, given proper NPOV and so on. I do not know of any discussion prior to its creation, but Ultramarine has every right to create new articles on her own initiative... that's a good thing, in fact. LotLE×talk 18:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Editing the talk page comments of others is not allowed. The above seems to be a deliberately misleading description of the current situation by giving diffs that are several days old. I only want one example of the chart to be visible on the talk page while we discuss it. Ultramarine 20:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Editing is allowed in limited instances. Removing personal attacks, identifying information about another user, etc are all acceptable reasons to edit anothers messages. If someone is posting unusually large images in a discussion, this would be a reason to thumb them if they're relevant, but not outright remove them. If you were discussing the ancient egyptians and slapped a ford truck on the talk page I'd also see it as relevant to remove it. In this case the images do appear to be thumbnail size, unless I'm looking at the wrong version of the page. However, talk pages are usually not collections of images, and when an image is done being discussed (there is no real reason to have it on the talk page anywhere, you can use a : link to refer people to it for consideration) they should be removed.--

Crossmr

20:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ray Lopez/T Turner Outbreak again

[118] Same imposter style user name and lying on edit summaries. here. Also note the fake tag - I didn't create the account as a Check User will verify. Stirling Newberry 18:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked as impostor. Antandrus (talk) 20:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

malicious edit to caffeine

Caffeine edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caffeine&diff=73431539&oldid=73010547 by User:Rchamberlain obviously malicious; category practical jokes; unwiki User:Yy-bo 18:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, although it looks like he's been warned already. In the future, go to

WP:AIV to report simple vandalism. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!}

20:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon doing massive amounts of unconstructive edits

68.185.243.91 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) appears to be doing massive edits without any sort of discussion, as well as linking to non-existant pages, as well as some redundancies. Several other editors and myself have had to clean up this user's edits, as they are extremely unhelpful to the articles he does them in. I do not believe that this is simple vandalism, but is definitely something that needs to be dealt with. There have been similar editors to this on pages I watch in the past, but this one is different entirely. Ryūlóng 21:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears that this editor has been blocked within the last hour for his actions at an article. However, this should still be known to those who were not involved in fixing this user's edits. Ryūlóng 21:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ramand/TheftByEating sock drawer

Upon investigating the recent edit war at

WP:3RR. As such, along with blocking the other legitimate editors who had violated 3RR, I also blocked Ramand and TheftByEating, the two members of the sock drawer who were reverting there, indefinitely, while leaving the rest aone for the moment. Since then, Daborhe, anothe ro the accounts that is very likely the same person, began reverting at Grigori Perelman

. As such, and especially since I can't find any with more than a few dozen edits, mostly trolling and warring, I'm outing them all here and blocking them. The accounts include:

• Ramand
• TheftByEating
• Daborhe
• Numbum
• FishHeadAbcd
• Ironplay
• Lalacool

Taken togeher, they have violated 3RR on many articles, including

t

22:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Add

t

23:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Bogus Sprotect Tag Posted by 132.241.246.111

132.241.246.111 has again added a bogus “{{sprotect}}” tag to an article:

• attack

(For previous known incident, see “Bogus Sprotect Tags Posted by Vandal” above. Why is this editor being allowed so much freedom to pervert articles? —12.72.71.203 22:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

And Yet Another Bogus Sprotect Tag Posted by 132.241.246.111

See:

• attack

and immediately previous report and report before that. —12.72.71.203 23:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

24.79.60.31 still vandalizing NHL-related pages

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but 24.79.60.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) cotinues to vandalize NHL team pages. He continues to add Canandian English to topics that are about American teams ([119], [120], [121]), adds very biased POV to articles ([122], [123]) and changing section headers to silly and/or biased statements ([124], [125]). He continues to ignore any and all warnings on his user page, and a previous block from July has done nothing to deter his vandalism. Can something PLEASE be done about this user? –NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 23:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

If it is simple vandalism it gets reported on

Doc

23:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Self taken Provocative Photos:

If the

Anal Sex

article.

Also, User:Anchoress has also expressed interest in making photos for Wikipedia along those lines.

Thanks :)Courtney Akins 02:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You are hopefully aware that you might be tripping up

WP:POINT. Hbdragon88

03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say,

WP:TROLL. Blocked indefinitely for disruption. El_C

04:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't say that her edits have been wise... but is an indefinite block really appropriate? Based on the user's contribution history, she seems interested in a) decreasing the Myspace-ness of the Wiki (using a few measures that have been proposed by others, a few not) and b) increasing Wikipedia's coverage of sexuality, particularly borderline practices. For that matter, the behavior you've mentioned hardly seems to come close to

WP:BLOCK's description of disruption, and an indefinite block of a user with a couple hundred edits (many of which have been productive) without a community ban is highly irregular. As an admin of long standing, you've earned community trust... but is there something that I'm not seeing here? Would it not have been more productive to raise your concerns with the editor before blocking? Captainktainer * Talk

08:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely - this block seems very irregular. El C, please reconsider it. -- ChrisO 08:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify something - I think the editor was in the wrong with her proposal, and I think she was a little haughty and arrogant. But I don't feel that haughtiness and arrogance merit a complete and unilateral ban from the community. I think it might be helpful to talk to the user in question, warn her to spend more time in the community before making policy proposals - a very brief block to cool things off, if there was considerable disruption, I think might have been appropriate. She clearly has a lot to learn about Wikipedia policies. But, barring information that El_C has that I don't, I have to question the proportionality of the response. Captainktainer * Talk 08:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

While I have tried to mentor the above user, I feel that El C's block is pretty much in order. There were things that El C explained to me, via email, that gave me enough reason to believe the block was just. Sure, I tried to help Courtney out and gave her pointers and all of that stuff. But even with my advice, she is doing this, so I am not sure if in the long run if she will be a good contributor or I will be burned at the stake at some random RFAr. However, if this user is unblocked, I would still like to mentor her, but I need something with teeth, because I can admit that Courtney is a wild gal, I just need something to tame her. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 08:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay... I think there's something to be said for trust and respecting the long history of established admins in this matter. Perhaps ArbCom would be willing to place a temporary injunction on her, enjoining her not to make policy proposals until they can review her case? That way she can continue to edit while they consider her case. Alternatively, if she's willing to accept mediation, perhaps she could be talked into accepting that sort of remedy voluntarily. Maybe these ideas are farfetched... I just think that there might be ways to handle this situation that don't end in a block. Captainktainer * Talk 08:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There were things that El C explained to me, via email - how about it's explained to the rest of us - here? Wikipedia cannot have it both ways, yes THIS editor MIGHT be trying to make

Charlesknight

09:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, real pictures are highly controversial. Even drawings of anal sex and other sexual poses have been somewhat contentious; real photos would be even more controversial. Wikipedia is not officially censored, but consensus dictates what goes into an article or not (like, for instance, whether the drawing in Missionary position should have the teddy bear or not). Hbdragon88 07:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

This person is talking about what they might do. How is that "disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point"? Not finding the word "troll" on

WP:BP I am guessing this block is warranted under "exhausting the communitiy's patience" and I must admit to not being familiar with this editor's past but with only one block (this one) to her name I don't really see how the community's patience block applies here. Could someone spell out specifically which section of the blocking policy this block falls under? Thanks. (→Netscott

) 09:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The commonsense part? Tyrenius 09:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a "common sense" clause in

WP:BLOCK, for good reason; the blocking tool is powerful and can potentially cause great havoc, so all blocks should be done with care and forethought. The closest that comes is "Disruption," which has a 24-hour max for the first block. Captainktainer * Talk

09:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get everyone to look through all of this user's edits and then go for exhausting the community's patience. Tyrenius 09:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I am so glad someone's had the initiative to indef block this blatant troll. A few hours ago I went through all of this user's edits, and it was unmistakable. This is not a novice. This person knows their way round all the nooks and crannies of wikipedia. Within the first two days they had not only created their first article on "Throat gaggers" oral sex porn film, but had proposed it as a featured article, describing it as a work of "pure genius". That is just such a wind-up. Then as a new user in their first two days they put up a bit of Florida for AfD.[126]. Also in this meteoric career, also in the first two days, they found their way to Categories for deletion on the Rouge Admins template. Day 3 sees our newbie placing a NPOV template on an article on Human rights in Brazil, saying it is "99% negative" and "not sourced" (sources are given), and then, before the day is out, nominating Gay rights in Brazil as an AfD. Need I go on? An extra worry is that this person was not female at all, and was not the subject in the photo. Seems par for the course. It would also be interesting to run Checkuser on this editor and the IP vandal that posted the sexual photos on the user page. Zscout370, I emailed you about this, but didn't get a reply. Did you get my email, or does the Foundation eat them or something? Tyrenius 09:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not recieve such email, go ahead and send again. If that doesn't work, my WP talk page should be fine. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked at some of the poster's track record, and I can see why someone might conclude that she is mainly here to take the piss engage in satire and merry japes. That said, she still has a way to go before it's a question of community patience being exhausted. I suggest she be unblocked soon on the basis that it's been long enough on this occasion. Metamagician3000 09:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

How exactly do you explain that this so-called newbie finds "her" way around with a competence that takes most people weeks or months to develop, and yet, despite this obvious sophistication, manages to come out with actions that use all the right words to purport to help wikipedia and yet are all perfectly inappropriate. I've looked at every one of the edits. I suggest you do the same. It's actually highly amusing, but I don't think wikipedia's purpose is to cater for that kind of amusement. Tyrenius 09:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

And if her edits continue to be mainly attempts (some moderately amusing, some not) at satirising Wikipedia, with attendant disruption, I'll probably support an indefinite block "next time". This is sort of like an RfA oppose in reverse. Metamagician3000 09:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To respond to user Tyrenius' post, if this user is an abusive/disruptive sockpuppet then indeed an indefinite block is warranted in this case. (→Netscott) 09:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should unblock "her" just to see what "she" does next. It's hilarious once you're in on it to see everyone take it so seriously. We could just keep it to ourselves. And watch. :) Tyrenius 09:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

(Strike - it's not very nice that this person is exploiting people's kindness and generosity. Tyrenius 09:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

I don't take offence at Courtney bringing me into this conversation, although she slightly misrepresented me, but personally I have felt that she was on a road to inevitable blocking from the first posts I saw of her. I think she is a troll, I think she is probably a sock (I have some opinions of who but won't smear anyone), and while I don't have an opinion on a permanent block I think she'll eventually get one, one way or another. A third of her edits are great, a third are blatant - at the very least useless to the project and at worst inappropriate - attention-seeking, and a third are subtle trolling. In my interactions with her I AGF, but my opinion is that s/he's like a kid who shoots spit balls at the teacher when her back is turned, then sits there with an innocent smile the rest of the time. Anchoress 09:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Bang on target. Tyrenius 09:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have time to read every single diff, but I looked at a few more, and it just confirms what a few of us have been saying: this user's career here is an elaborate piss-take. There may be some genuinely helpful edits somewhere, but if so they are hard to find.

I dunno. She's wasting a lot of our time, even if some of it is funny once you understand what she's up to. I suppose it's a question of whether there is any admin who is prepared to tell her that we got the joke and we'd now like to give her a chance to edit seriously. I'm not going to be that admin. Maybe someone else is more soft-hearted. If anyone does give her a second chance, I for one will watch her. If no one does, I guess that's the definition of a community ban. Either way, El_C made a good catch here. Metamagician3000 11:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I support an indef ban as the very first ban, for a user with a record, if that record includes productive edits. I'm inclined to agree with MM3K about the career so far but I do think someone ought to tell this user "we get the joke and here's your chance to edit seriously". So I'd give this user a second chance and watch carefully. I'm not seeing consensus either way yet though, and I'd like to hear from El C before I overturned his block, as I REALLY don't like to overturn other people's blocks. ++Lar: t/c 12:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Assume Good Faith" doesn't mean we have to act willfully stupid or credulous. I support El C's action, because this user smells like an obvious troll to me. Nandesuka 14:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as Lar is the one doing the watching, I'm with Lar here.(you did volunteer! ;-P) You will indef block if this person acts up again, right? Anybody strongly opposed? If not... good luck! Kim Bruning 15:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, if I overturn the block I'll keep an eye on this user to the best of my ability (but welcome help). Perhaps a notice to the user to that effect by me is in order as well. Maybe even a mentorship. And yes, if something does transpire that is unacceptable, I would block indefinitely, I've blocked indefinitely before and have no issues with the concept, just didn't think it was warranted yet in this case. El C, is this acceptable to you? ++Lar: t/c 17:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see any warning related to the reasoning behind the ban, this seems out of order, and perhaps inspired by other events unrelated to the user being banned. I recently looked through this users contributions, and I see that other reasons may have been involved with the ban, however those reasons were not made clear. HighInBC 15:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't say I support the block. Based on looking at a few diffs, the user seems naive (e.g. lack of appreciation of copyright), but not dangerous. I also hope we're not blocking people just because they offer to upload pictures of anal sex. If we prefer to stick with illustrations of sexual techniques as opposed to photographs (I've no opinion on this), we can tell the user this rather than blocking them outright. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 16:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Courtney doesn't seem to be an overly disruptive user to begin with. Considering this is her first block ever and she was blocked for disrupton, seems a little suspicious. I think she would need to be mentored for Wikipedia civility, if anything. Her message above was inappropriate, yes, but blockworthy, maybe not so much. I would have tried to talk to the user about her actions, and block (for maybe 48 hours) if she continued to be disruptive, but indefblocked.. never.. for the above message. I don't know if her block was very justified in the sense of disruption, because no warnings were ever used and there doesn't seem to be many comments on her talk page about her conduct prior to her block. —

The Future

16:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done the look-at-every diff thing. Somebody said a third of her edits are great; they aren't. Of her edits, I counted six which seemed OK, and only one, this human experimentation business she agitated about on AN/I, which truly helped the encyclopedia. My opinion is that Courtney couldn't troll us any harder if she had came back in time from the future with a cybernetic trolling machine with which to troll us. She's completely disruptive, but in a slow, methodical way that has been shy of producing any blocks. Should she be indefed? Sigh, I guess not. I suggest reducing the block to a week and letting this episode stand as a warning. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the sole purpose of this account is disruption, and I commend

BOLD move and he has properly posted it here for discussion. Some other users have raised various doubts and opinion is divided. I think it is right to make sure that people are happy with admin actions. One objection is that a warning was not given for what could be seen as naivete, rather than deliberateness. I propose that this block to date should serve as that warning, and now be lifted. It is not going to do a great deal of harm now that Courtney Atkins is going to be closely watched. It won't take long to confirm things one way or the other, and it should at the very least provide some amusement. Has there ever previously been an article simultaneously a Featured Article Candidate and an Article for Deletion, I wonder? I propose also that any user should feel free to revert any action by Courtney Atkins, if they feel it is not appropriate, provided they leave an explanation on Courtney Atkins' talk page as to why they have done so, for educational purposes. Also, bearing in mind the pranks, we should not allow the uploading of any photos, unless it can be proved that these are the copyright of Courtney Atkins. Tyrenius

20:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

That all seems reasonable to me. I'm not lifting unless 1) either I hear from El C or a clear consensus here develops, right now it's not clear to me yet, and 2) the user responds positively to my offer of mentorship. I note Zscout offered to help mentor as well. Others may choose differently but those are my criteria for lifting.++Lar: t/c 20:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I support Tyrenius' suggestion, upon hearing from El_C again. —

The Future

20:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. My only fixed position is on the photos, which I feel otherwise could be a serious error. Tyrenius 21:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it could be. If she's unblocked, I think she should be allowed to upload Images as long as they aren't about the

The Future

23:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had encounters with Courtney, and I've read this post, and I'm stongly opposed to the unblocking of Courtney. She is a

WP:Point troll in the worst sense of the term I kind of just made up. She is almost dilberately hypocritical in the sense she posts about Wikipedia becoming myspace, while she has a photo of herself plastered on her userpage and makes posts like these[127][128][129][130]. I'll confess I haven't read the book, but I doubt this. Also, I find these posts just really odd[131][132]. Also, it didn't help when she suggested a Stalinist system of maintaining user accounts. She has certainly exhausted my patience, demonstrates trollish behavior, and to be perfectly blunt is up to no good in my opinion. Yanksox

00:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm an outlier here, but when I contrast this user with other "exhausted our patience" users, I'm just not seeing that we're anywhere near that point yet. I think you guys know I think of myself as firm and intolerant of trolling (some of which I do definitely see here) but I'm not seeing the exhausted part yet. I expect typically to see a larger history here, or somewhere else, before I get to "exhausted my patience" state. You can count on me to mentor this user and if it's not working out, block, and block hard. But if the community doesn't agree, that's fine too. I'd like to get to a conclusion though, if possible. I wish El C would speak up again. ++Lar: t/c 00:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wholly agree with Courtney Akins's proposal. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

unblocked

After hearing from El C that he has no objections, I have unblocked this user. See: User_talk:Courtney_Akins#Unblocked. What I would ask from the rest of you is twofold, give me the space to mentor this user and see if they can reform and fly right... don't expect me to jump on every little thing. But on the other hand, DO please bring things to my attention, issues, advice, anything you feel I need to know. My email and talk are always open to my fellow admins. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 01:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, cool with me. Metamagician3000 01:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I will be happy to co-operate. Tyrenius 02:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

A victory for the trolls. Again, natch. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 09:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

So what Jeffrey? Lar has volunteered to bear the burden so you don't have to. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 09:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, every single person has to deal with "her" trolling. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 10:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Beyond that message she left on your talk page, it's been you who has decided to reply to everyone one of her threads with

WP:TROLL links. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute?

00:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to mentor this user, and I'd ask if there are new issues that arise (unless they are extremely urgent), please bring them to my attention first and I'll deal with them... this ensures a consistent message. There are those that think I'm on a fools errand, and I may well be, but I'd like to give it a fair try. If Courtney can't improve I'll cut the communities losses to be sure, so please let me try, thanks! ++Lar: t/c 17:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to "exhaust the community's patience" to be blocked indefinitely

Catching the tail end of this on returning from a break, I just want to protest the notion that an account needs to "exhaust the community's patience" before they can be blocked indefinitely. El C clearly didn't place an "exhausted patience" block but an "all edits trolling" block. Such blocks can with perfect appropriateness be set on an account's first day. Why ever not? We frequently invoke "All edits vandalism" as a reason for pretty much immediate indefinite blocks; is there a significant difference between that and this? No. Not even if the editor was savvy enough to technically make one or two non-trolling edits just to spike our guns. Lar's wasting his time, but it's his choice. Bishonen | talk 12:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC).

Chiming in to point out that I've blocked a few accounts indef (see for yourself: Lar (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) ) in some cases with just one edit (when that single edit was by an account with a bad username that was clearly vandalism) so it's not that an account NEEDS to have exhausted the community's patience. It's just that it was asserted (or felt to me like it was asserted) that this one had, and I'm not sure that's the case, as it hasn't yet exhausted mine and I think I'm part of the community (right? er, maybe don't answer that? :) ). Note also that I didn't unilaterally lift, I got El C's concurrance first... I could well be wasting my time, who knows, we shall see. (something you've suspected me of doing in the past in other contexts, mind you) Or maybe I have other motives, as I did those other times you thought I was wasting my time. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you weren't the one barking up the Exhausted Patience tree as if it was the only one in the forest. But several other users were. A metaphor of dogs, not monkeys. Bishonen | talk 12:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC).

No one objected when I indef blocked User:General Tojo without warning, for ex. Perhaps he lacked the promise of sexy pics! ;) El_C 20:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware of the fact that User:General Tojo was banned indefinitely without warning. Perhaps you are a bit too trigger happy with your ban button? Dionyseus 21:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Awareness is good! El_C 22:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Did his sockpuppeting come before or after the block of the original account? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 13:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh Samsara. Let's just say he was using Wikipedia as an experiment for trolling, but a more pro-Nazi than anti. Luckily, everything he said was in English, so it was —and remains— actually readable to us on the En-Wiki. El_C 13:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the debate you are referring to was posted in German and carried over onto the English Wikipedia was not by my choosing. If you wish to criticise the translation I provided, I invited everyone to do so when the discussion was still happening. I note that you chose not to do so. The only person to comment felt that the translation was accurate. If you wish to continue to make insinuations about my political orientation, one of us will have to take this up the administrative chain. Yours faithfully, Samsara (talk • contribs) 09:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My review of General Tojo (

talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) suggests much more there to exhaust patience and I support the block. Note also that the indef was not the first block. Shorter blocks are a form of warning in my view. ++Lar: t/c

17:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Differential treatment for "I am an 18 year old hottie who wants you to see her body" accounts is a laughable constant on the Internet. You would think that Wikipedia would have enough folks with sufficient experience, or at least a sufficient number of "disinterested" people, to not fall for it. Courtny was one such. Publicgirluk may not have been. I did some research, and there is an account name by that handle very active in sex sites in the UK, but that doesn't confirm anything. Tojo was a troll who announced as much with his account name and then demonstrated it amply with his edits. Assuming good faith doesn't mean being a fool. Geogre 16:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You show an exemplary demonstration of

AGF by accepting the user is indeed an "18 year old hottie". I must confess I have not found it possible to achieve the same standard. :) Tyrenius

18:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for an hour

based on a bad faith RfA self nom (130+ edits? probably not going to succeed) and a proposal/question on

WP:AN by this user I blocked for an hour, with a reminder that we advocate article space edits rather than non when under mentorship and a request to talk. The user responded they couldn't think of any... ++Lar: t/c

05:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The RFA was deleted by me, and as the other mentor, I support said block. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the "Forking off" thread on AN: [133] note that Werdna deleted it and moved it to User_talk:Courtney_Akins. Since it had a block notice I'm not sure I agree but whatever. This ANI thread is the place to discuss (not to get too process wonky). Admins can see the RfA (it's deleted) here: [134] ++Lar: t/c 05:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there's some irony in the fact that this person is still here while publicgirluk isn't. I'm not saying Jimbo necessarily did the wrong thing with publicgirluk (I kept out of that argument and don't want to buy in now), but I do think that Courtney_Atkins is the more obvious troll. Metamagician3000 06:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The irony is certainly not lost on me. ++Lar: t/c 07:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So you want this user gone too? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

In all honesty I've not seen any evidence at all that PublicgirlUK was a troll. Reasons for thinking she might be, yes, evidence no. --kingboyk 09:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer not to comment on that here, however much I may agree with you, as there are other threads/pages where it's discussed. I'd rather stay focused on this particular user instead of debating relative worth. ++Lar: t/c 15:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Self identified underage user

While fixing move vandalism on Wikipedia pages today, I came across

WP:CHILD? Ryūlóng

00:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What precisely does the user have to do with

WP:CHILD? ~ PseudoSudo

00:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to be posting any personal information. What's the problem here? --Ryan Delaney ^talk 00:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-identifying at 6 may not be wise (and it might not hurt to say so) but, beyond perhaps putting the user's talk page on our watchlists, I see no reason to act. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 00:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:CHILD is only a propsed poicly and I agree watching his talk page but should we tell him that there is a concern about him being only 6 years old?---Scott3 _{Talk Contributions Count: 950+}

01:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My observations:

• User hasn't revealed her identity yet.
• Is creating semi-useless, but valid redirects (i.e. obscure scientific name for animal species -> common name)
• Lack of communication (has yet to respond to anything on her talk page)
• Does not provide meaningful edit summaries
• Most worrying, does not have a good grasp of spelling or punctuation. eg:
  Assinus (misspelling of Asinus
  ) and "(moved Acinonyx rex to King cheetah: because that,s it,s name"

I say she should be blocked for 3-4 years (might as well be indef). At her age, the quality of her contributions are dubious at best and trying to convey any notion of "policies" to her would be a futile exercise. --  Netsnipe  ►  00:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Guys, let's think about this one for a few seconds. Not to sound evil or anything, but what are the chances that this user is 6? I have members of my kin older than that and members that are adults but are afraid of editing Wikipedia and are unsure about it. This just seems too strange to be actually true. Yanksox 00:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say that grasp of English and saying that "I'm 6 years old" is enough evidence for such a block. If this user is 37 and is saying he/she is six that is even worse. Ryūlóng 00:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems like as good as time as any to trot out my perennial complaint that

WP:CHILD's directives are far too tame: I don't think underage persons should be allowed to edit Wikipedia at all. That's largely unenforceable, of course, but at least Wikipedia can point to that policy and say, at least in principle, kids aren't allowed here. We don't really need the editorial input of children anyway, do we? Not only is it a sane public-image policy (in these times more than ever), but it's good for the quality of the encyclopedia. wikipediatrix

00:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

How can you have a perennial complaint about a draft policy that is less than a week old? :)

Thatcher131 (talk)

00:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I knew someone would jump on that :) I've been making the perennial complaint about children editing Wikipedia since long before the advent of

WP:CHILD, but I was condensing things for brevity's sake. wikipediatrix

00:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not serious, are you? We have several very capable administrators who are "underage" where I live... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 02:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm dead serious. What if one of the many editors who was flirting with User:Publicgirluk and begging her to email them more sperm-faced porn pics had turned out to be a child? What if she responded and did so? What if parents found out and went ballistic? What if it blew up into a very-bad-for-Wikipedia news story? Something like this IS going to happen, it's only a matter of time. It's not a matter of if, but when, and it will bring me no joy to be able to say "I told you so". wikipediatrix 13:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

They blocked Publicgirduk?! Oh my god, what is going on? Lapinmies 16:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, man, I cannot disagree more; the absolute, complete, total, 100% wrong way to go about this is to ban all "underage" users (and, given that Wiki is a global encyclopedia, there is no one "underage" threshold). The absolute, complete, total, 100% right way to go about this is to educate our users, particularly among the youngest, of the potential that Wikipedia and/or any website holds (within our purview, of course,

Wikipedia is not your parents). Until the necessary technology is sufficiently widespread to make age restrictions effective, any attempt to implement your "solution" would, if taken to its logical conclusion, shut down the Worldwide Web altogether (and, no, I'm not exaggerating). RadioKirk (u|t|c

) 18:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This could be a bogus user identity, of course, but another possibility is that this is a precocious first- or second-grader who loves animals (the user's edits are all about animal species), sitting at the keyboard with Mom or Dad or older sibling doing the typing. No

WP:CHILD issue here per lack of identifying information as noted above, but there may be other issues. There's no evidence that the user has ever noticed his/her talk page or the warnings on it. I disagree strongly with Wikipediatrix about excluding all "underage" (under what age??) persons from the project (though the strength of my opposition could depend on what age is meant), but this probably isn't the place for that discussion. Newyorkbrad

00:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing here seems to justify a block at this time. Just careful monitoring. If the user's spelling issues become more difficult or if some other issue (such as identifying information) crops up we should take action then. JoshuaZ 02:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Then there were the massive amounts of double redirects and the minor page move vandalism created over this user's joining at Wikipedia. At least now we know that there may be a six year old editor out there and we can help her, if need be. Ryūlóng 02:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• It may eventually be a problem if she fails to respond to things on her talk page when we need to talk to her, but for now, we should just keep an eye on her. As noted above, a number of editors are underage, and that's generally not a problem if they behave well (same standards as adults). We should be careful how we try to bring her into the community, but we should at least make a good effort. Imagine what kind of an editor she'll be in 10 years if she grows up with our culture (provided things work out, of course). --Improv 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• It would totally be inappropriate to block just because of this person's listed age. If they aren't giving out personal information and aren't causing lots of problems, leave them alone. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. -

·

19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree too. And has Meleh been made aware of this discussion? I would like ot avoid a situation like pguk's.

=hello?=

17:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

posted on her talkpage about this

=hello?=

18:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• We (Wikipedia) should all wait on voicing opinions on such matters until
  lawyer address this issue. Teke ^(talk
  ) 04:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

COPPA doesn't even come near what Wikipedia does. COPPA only applies if you're taking personal information from a user (and we're not; the optional e-mail address is not personal info anyway). Even if COPPA applied to a user's posts, Wikipedia's common carrier status would keep us exempt in the same way that if a child were to use e-mail to reveal personal info, the e-mail and internet providers would not be liable. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I frequently act like one online). Ral315 (talk) 05:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to contribute to this discussion if I may. This individual would not be the only young editor on WP. My daughter is also an editor, and she is 7. This was her own idea after reading a book that she liked and asking me to look it up to see if it was on WP (she sees me editing WP frequently). She is well-versed in not revealing personal information, due to an online game at some kid's site (Disney or something like it) that she has been playing for years. She started using a computer when she was 2 - logging herself in on my Linux system and using Netscape/Mozilla to visit a selection of kids sites I put on the menu bar. When I switched her to a Mac before she could read, she complained that it was harder to use as several things like logging out had to be done on menus which assume the user could read :-) In any case, she has agreed only to edit WP with supervision, and I've helped her with a bit of wording and use of a template, but basicly the article A Moose for Jessica is her work. —Hanuman Das 01:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

COPPA does address this. If the user provides personal information even if we don't ask for it, we need parental permission. I.e. if a user identifies as 6 years old and the email user function works, then we've collected personal informaiton and we know it. Last I read COPPA e-mail addresses are considered personal information. The moment the user provides any possible remotely identifying information they should be blocked for 7 years (until they'd turn 13).--

Crossmr

20:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Technically COPPA is irrelevant since its terms explicitly apply only to websites operated for commercial purposes. However, I would agree that in many ways COPPA generally defines a good set of practices. I would support deleting any personal information provided by someone who self-identifies as under 13. I don't generally support blocking though, unless the user is being otherwise disruptive. Dragons flight 21:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again with the undiscussed page moves by Meleh (talk • contribs) again

1. 08:54, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Seal (moved Talk:Seal to Talk:Seal (disambiuguation): ?)
2. 08:54, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Seal (moved Seal to Seal (disambiuguation): ?)
3. 08:53, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Guanaco (moved Guanaco to Guanaco (disambiguation): ?)
4. 05:24, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Amphicyonidae (Redirecting to Amphicyonid) (top)
5. 00:49, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Biota (moved Talk:Biota to Talk:Biota (disambiguation): ?)
6. 00:49, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Biota (moved Biota to Biota (disambiguation): ?)

--  Netsnipe  ►  06:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I put a note on the User:Meleh page. They have edited it and thus are at least aware of its existence and may notice that message. I would suggest putting links to User talk:Meleh and/or the article talk page of edit summaries when reverting and otherwise trying to point them towards discussion. A minor dose of calm would not be out of order either. It isn't like we are dealing with thousands of page moves and massive disruption here. This is all minor stuff that can easily be set back if need be. --CBD 14:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I think this discussion has outlived its usefulness at this time. El_C 00:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Please see current discussion timelines on User talk:Lar, User talk:Giano, User talk:Kylu & Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Carnildo 3. Giano opposes Carnildo's RfA (which I have no interest in) and harasses Lar for his support of Carnildo, then starts personal attacks against said user. I warn him for civility problems, he takes it personally, and continues, implying that I had no authority or reason to block him (even though I pointed out the civility concerns). I've blocked him for 48 hours in the sincere hope that he'll cool down and start reacting civilly in the future. It was suggested to me to post this so record my motives for said block, considering that Giano may decide that I'm biased against him somehow.

Fun, ne? ~Kylu (u|t) 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Fun, no. I did unblock, since the situation was, in my opinion, cooling down (I have been following it all too closely and if I had a stress meter it would be way up there) and this block was (and in all honestly still is) likely to reverse that. It is not policy to block as punishment for incivilty or not assuming good faith; blocks should be for preventing (further) disruption and I neither believe Giano's invective has risen to disruptive levels in the first place nor that this block was going to prevent more of the same. However, I am generally friendly with Giano, and thus admit I may be vulnerable to some bias here and will bite my lip and be quiet if anybody says I was wrong to unblock and overturns me. I am going to sleep now. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You've done the unblock, so I'm done with the situation. I don't block as punishment, since last I checked that wasn't policy (except possibly in the case of 3RR, where to me it seems that's part of the reason they made policy as such, not that I agree with it) and I am loathe to "punish" someone when admins are just "users with more buttons" anyway. Anyway, with the large number of attacks ongoing between my warning to Giano and when I logged back in, I felt the situation was escalating out of control. Again, I don't know Giano, Carnildo, you (nice to meet you, though!) and Lar only vaguely. As you've said you're friendly with Giano, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd keep an eye on the situation and do as needed: My hope was mostly to give Giano some cool-down time so he wouldn't spend it attacking others instead of being productive. C'est la vie. ~Kylu (u|t) 05:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Carnildo seriously wronged Giano and has never shown any contrition about it. Partly for that reason, I have opposed Carnildo's RFA. I strongly support the idea that something should be done to remove the damaging note placed by Carnildo in Giano's block log. That, however, does not give Giano a licence to address Lar, in particular, in the way he did (see the exchange on Lar's talk page). It went way beyond ordinary incivility into quite ugly attacks of a personal nature. A 48-hour block for that was entirely justified in my opinion. I fully support Kylu's action, and believe that this block by Kylu should not have been lifted, especially by someone who admits to being "friendly" with the person blocked. Lifting blocks in these circumstances sends the wrong message about what kind of behaviour is acceptable here. We should support, not undermine, fellow admins who are prepared to impose blocks for such behaviour. If the blocking policy is thought not to cover it, the blocking policy needs to be updated to reflect the reality that such conduct is unacceptable. Metamagician3000 09:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I add that I have not overturned Bunchofgrapes, in the spirit of not wheel warring, but part of me feels I should have. Metamagician3000 09:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned Giano's behaviour had already reached disruptive proportions, and a block was proper. Unblocking without discussion was not. --kingboyk 10:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur with

Bryant

10:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that Giano's comments warranted a block. Yes, he was ugly and over-the-top, but blocks should not be used lightly in these situations (this is exactly how the whole pedophile wheelwar started in the first place). Now the block's lifted all is well. The Land 11:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

With respect, the wheel warring problem was undoing other admins (including undoing Jimbo, if I recall correctly) without discussion. That's wheel warring. So, if there's any parallel in this case it's not the blocking it's the unblocking. --kingboyk 11:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The basic problem was trigger-happy use of admin powers, and this was borne out by the ArbCom judgement on the case. As I say, I am with Bunchofgrapes and think Kylu's block was borderline in policy and probably a bad idea in the circumstances. Handing out blocks to other users-in-good-faith because they are misbehaving somewhat is not what admins are here to do. The Land 11:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This limited-term block for egregiously insulting behaviour toward Lar and other respected users is not in any way analogous to the ... let's all agree ... outrageous indefinite blocks that were imposed by Carnildo and led to his desysopping. Being a good-faith user is not a licence to attack others. Repeated misbehaviour should have consequences, not as punishment but as a deterrent to further such misbehaviour.

Really, Kylu's decisive but relatively conservative action should have been supported, or even commended, by the rest of us. I've never encountered Kylu before, but from what I've seen here I have confidence in her. Metamagician3000 11:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLOCK does not state that users who misbehave should be blocked, nor users who are incivil. The proper procedure for drawing attention to these problems is raising discussion on ANI or alternatively opening an RFC. That is why blocking Giano in the circumstances was a borderline decision (though I can see the logic to it). I am also very unimpressed with people using formalistic language (e.g. 'User blocked' in comments directed at the blocked person) and by people saying they have 'given out' standard warning templates to established users. None of that is in the spirit of the community. The Land

11:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The written policy is too soft on incivility, IMHO, and I am not at all sure that it reflects actual good practice. Written policy follows good practice (such as we saw here from Kylu), not the other way around. There should be consequences to gross misbehaviour. Be that as it may, as has been said before, this went far beyond a one-off insult or sarcastic remark in the heat of the moment to ugly, gratuitous, premeditated, and repeated personal attacks. Giano arrived at Lar's talk page unannounced to insult him. That is clearly disruptive. I am very surprised and disappointed to see admins effectively condoning Giano's quite outrageous behaviour - there is now no incentive for him to stop it or desist in future - and undermining sound admin action by Kylu. It is quite obvious from the above discussion that there would have been no consensus to overturn the block if it had been discussed here first. Again, I believe Kylu should be commended for firm but relatively conservative action. Metamagician3000 12:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Well done Kylu. --kingboyk 12:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Finding this thread here is no surprise to me. In my conversations with Giano yesterday I got the impression that he wanted to keep a controversy going and wanted to push the envelope to see how far he could go. His edit to as user who had last conversed with him a full 20 hours earlier, is the clearest indication of this to me (why wait so long unless you need a new sparring partner?). I think much can be learned by how someone reacts when they are blocked. Do they ask for an unblock and apologize, or do they go on a personal attack spree? Even if one believes that 48 hours is too long, I think it would have been better to let Giano to have the first opportunity to request the unblock (he was offline the whole time), and proceed based on how he behaves when he does. NoSeptember 12:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I've tried my best to be unfaliling civil in this whole affair (feedback welcome), even soliciting further input after others warned Giano, but I do think he crossed the line. I did not ask anyone to block, I was just going to let him go on. That said, I am not sure I agree that unblocking him without discussion here first and also without an unblock request by him was the best approach. Needless to say, despite the fact that this might well earn me undying emnity from Giano (which point I think bears noting as something that's inappropriate) I support this block. But of course, I'm biased (and naiive, stupid, a fool, incompetent and devious as well, apparently, according to Giano). ++Lar: t/c 13:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I should remind all involved that Lar and Giano have interacted amicably for a long time. Further, WP:NPA is only a policy that says, "Be nice." There are no sanctions adherent. The point is that one of the things that Giano has been irritated about, if I may be so bold, is the way that people have been tossing out blocks and such for "not nice" and "I don't like that." The block is, to some degree, gasoline on a fire. Speaking for myself, I think a lot more talking folks down is necessary and a lot less blocking of well-established folks for getting angry. Geogre 13:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  I love Geogre like clotted cream loves scones, but I'm disturbed by this growing trend to treat Wikipedia as a tea party where we are supposed to pretend to have not heard when someone has acted like a complete prat, as Giano has in this case. A brief block for a cooling-off period is not only good for the encyclopedia, but good for the user, as it's letting them know where the boundaries are. My only criticism of the block in this case is that 2 days was, in my opinion, too long. But a few hours would have sent the message and given Giano a chance to reconsider his prattish behavior. I know we all want to be nice guys, mes amis, but it's truly OK to send someone outside of the room if they're throwing a temper tantrum. Take off the white gloves and be willing to get your hands a little dirty once in a while. Nandesuka 13:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  Sorry. I just thought 48 hr was long for cooling. 3 hr might do, but...look, what I wanted to wag my finger over wasn't any of that, and certainly not the fine point of what's cooling and what simmering. I just wanted to warn folks about incivility blocks with well established users. It's a tough and thick soup we ... drink or something... when we get into that. I'm glad Lar is ready to forgive, and I don't condone or support Giano's loss of temper, but I really hate NPA blocks. Geogre 15:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I tried to do exactly that (talking him down) as did others, as can be seen on his talk page. Sometimes it doesn't work. NoSeptember 13:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The corollary being well-established editors should know when to step back from posting when they are angry. I understand Giano's anger, but if he cannot discuss matters without calling someone (who themselves is a well-established editor) the laundry list of slights he threw at Lar then he is being disruptive. I wouldn't have blocked for it personally, and I certainly wouldn't have unblocked without discussing it with Kylu (another well-established editor). Syrthiss 13:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC) note this was intended as a reply to geogre, but the vagaries of edit conflicts made it appear far below Syrthiss

To Geogre: (3x edit conflict!) We used to interact amicably. I would not characterise his interaction with me in this affair as "amicable" but the shoe is entirely on his foot I feel, as I have, in my view, remained civil and open to input (feedback welcome). I'm happy to forgive and forget though, if he returns to being amicable and stops behaving in a manner that I feel is incivil and uncalled for. Forgiveness is something that we could use more of around here. Giano's anger is based on his being wronged, the wrongee not apologising or showing any acknowledgement of wrongness and Giano's subsequent inability (justified or not) to forgive. Forgiveness even when you don't get an apology might be a good thing sometimes instead of holding grudges. My expectation here, unfortunately, is that Giano will add me to the list of those he holds grudges against, which is really too bad. Also I think there was a lot of trying to talk Giano down from several admins (and myself) before he got this block. I note his friends were notably absent in trying to talk him down though. Where were they? 13:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lar (talk • contribs)

Well, for my part, I knew nothing of it until I saw this. No kidding. I'm terribly uniformed, and usually about as helpful in a dispute as a bowling ball at a baseball game. Still.... Geogre 14:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Kingboyk and Syrthiss both seem to think I unblocked without discussing it with Kylu first, which is not the case. See User talk:Kylu, and especially [135] "If anyone unblocks him, I have no problems with it, but I'd still encourage him to voluntarily not edit until he's finished introspection. If you're an admin, you're free to do so also." I'd also ask people to take a closer look at the timing of the block in relation to the height of the incilivity -- it was three hours after Giano's last post and more than 12 since his last post to User talk:Lar. That said, am I entirely confident I made the right decision? No. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, then I rescind that point. :) Syrthiss 15:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Captain Obvious here again with some perspective. We are involved in a rather radioactive Rfa now featuring a highly controversial candidate. A certain level of sparks should be expected and allowed for. Moreover, Giano was one of the main principles WRONGED by said candidate. He is entitled to express some anger, even if he wasnt one of the most prolific and best editors on this 'pedia (which to my mind means he is even more entitled to have his mild eccentricities indulged). What I truly find disturbing about this mess is, most of those harassing and threatening Giano, are from the opposite camp in Carnildo's Rfa. It is as if they are trying to bully and intimidate him into withdrawing his opposition and it looks as if they may have finally succeeded:[136]. Here's another obvious fact, Kylu, who wasn't even a member of Wikipedia during Carni's last, failed, Rfa, decides to play the politeness police and charge into a situation she knows next to nothing about, pass judgement on my old nemesis and ban him for an excessive time period. In doing so she made an already bad situation, which was already starting to cool off, even worse. She should at the very least get a harsh scolding from the more experienced and (presumably) more fair minded admins. But this is not the case. I'm increasingly appalled by the way admins here mistreat not only new but veteran contributors. Without editors like Giano, Panairjdde, Sam Spade and even Ghirlandajo, this place would be a much bigger joke than it already is. I just spent the last several hours trying to improve one my my friend's articles...opppsie I meant one of the PROJECT's articles. I did so out of friendship, to keep a promise I made and because I believe that the Wiki (sub) project of which we are both members is one of the few things left here which still works and is worthwhile. I did not do it because I believe that I'm contributing to some bold new experiment in human knowledge nor to help make "Jimbo's dream" a reality. And I certainly did not do it because I still believe this is an enjoyable and encouraging environment in which to work or even to visit anymore. Especially when those who have little to do with actually BUILDING this place take such an active role in harassing, threatening and discouraging those few who still do. So much for making "the internet not suck". The "revolution" is dead...and this glorious, bold new experiment has become just another shitty website. I would be surprised if after the way he has been mistreated, Giano ever again contributes here in any meaningful way. Niz job gang. Admins need to see beyond the heat of the moment and take a user's contribution history and edit count into account, before they start handing down threats and disproportionate punishments, like circus clowns doling out cotton candy and balloons.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hiya! Just to clarify a couple points: I actually invited Bunchofgrapes to unblock if he felt it appropriate, so no wheel warring, and I certainly don't have any problems with the action. While I appreciate RDH's concern in the matter, I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a high edit count and numerous contributions, that they're immune from following policy like other users. That's a slope ripe for abuse, in my opinion. If it much matters, I did consult other admins on IRC before issuing the block, though as I'm the one responsible for the action, I'll not mention them by name. Ja mata ne. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo's RfA is so depressing; it really makes me question my involvement with this project. Maybe it's time to burn the bridges. El_C 04:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I just don't think Giano gets the point that civility is needed yet. See this revert. Characterising good faith suggestions and discussion as "sanctimonious claptrap" just really isn't very civil in my view. When I pointed that out, his (via edit summary reverting my comment) response missed the point, asking "what more must I do, support?" It's so NOT about support/oppose. It's about civility. Either he doesn't get that or he's being sarcastic... needs fixing in either case. I'm not advocating any blocking but if some of his friends could get to him and ask him to be civil, it would really be helpful. ++Lar: t/c 17:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Lar, I realize this may make some more guns swing round in my direction (as being Giano's friend), but to my eye this pursuit of having Giano "fixed" is beginning to look vengeful. Is it necessary to post on his page at all?[137] To insist that he mustn't "remove discussion" from it? (He actually can remove stuff from his page, you know.) To demand that he "discuss things"? I recommend the section "reducing the impact" of

WP:CIVIL to your wise consideration. "Do not answer offensive comments. Forget about them. Forgive the editor. Do not escalate the conflict... Walk away. Wikipedia is a very big place. Just go edit somewhere else for a while and return when tempers have cooled." Bishonen | talk

19:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC).

• Hey, everybody! One thing about this is that this situation is one of those rare ones where talking about it won't make it better. It seems to me that everyone has staked out a position, and we've all established that Giano is very upset, that Lar is affronted, that several people feel that the comments are too hot, one way or the other. Beyond that, there really isn't much of a way forward. Please, each of us be the better person, each of us lead the way by walking away. It would be great if, the next time an issue of high drama emerges, we again try not to be rattled. I aim this comment at everyone. The only way peace can occur, I think, is with all sides ignoring each other's barbs and baits for a bit. Geogre 19:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Strongly concur with Geogre. Newyorkbrad 19:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I'm affronted. I just don't think that "sanctimonious claptrap" has any place in an edit summary, especially when it was in a thread that was giving him useful and actionable advice about how to address his valid (and grevious) greviance. I note that Geogre and Bishie lecture me, but BoG had the good sense (without being asked, it happened while I was posting) to suggest to Giano that Giano needs to cool down a bit. He's the better friend if you ask me. (Giano unfortunately snapped back at his friend in turn) ++Lar: t/c 20:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I find the tone of this post unfortunately condescending, Lar :-( A bunch of people Giano was already clearly not wanting to hear from were posting on his page... indeed not a good idea right now. This "better friend" business sticks hard in my craw, as does the overfamiliar nickname for Bishonen in a post where you are taking her to task. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hunh. I thought I was lecturing everybody, including myself. <shrug> I'd guess that folks who are trying to calm down Giano would do it by e-mail, and that wouldn't be public. Also, I think Giano already knows that most of us want calm. Anyway, like I said, let's all go placid. Geogre 21:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Advice taken and agreed with, even if I screwed up earlier. :D Thanks for being a bastion of peace. :) ~Kylu (u|t) 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or has Giano (talk · contribs) been leaving a lot of vindictive messages with diffs showing others' edits? One of them criticized BoG's removal of the whole spate concerning Giano's actions on BoG's own talk page. Ryūlóng 23:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is just you, don't try and understand it now, it is all far too complicated. BoG will explain it to you, with infinite patience. Giano | talk 23:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To Geogre: Do you suggest we ignore comments he posts here too? Should we create a special class of user who is permitted to say whatever they want while we pretend not to see it? How do I sign up for this special right to abuse anyone I want without consequences? And if some people leave WP because nothing is done about the abuse they must endure, should we just say "Tough luck, sorry it happened"? I, for one, think the expectation of civility should apply to everyone. NoSeptember 23:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was getting at here, though considering the amount of flak I'm getting over this (especially on irc and email) I'm just dropping it. The situation isn't worth me disrupting Wikipedia and getting blocked just to play "rules enforcer." I'm just afraid that eventually someone will do the "You know, Giano's really exhausted my patience" bit, and we'll be down one competent editor instead of getting to the problem early and teaching him to reconsider how he approaches others. :( ~Kylu (u|t) 23:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are teaching me a great deal Kylu, but what are you learning is the big question in all this nasty debacle Giano | talk 00:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Kylu, you didn't screw up earlier, and you still have my full confidence. Although I don't know you, I am deeply disappointed that you are having to take heat from colleagues who should be supporting you, when you've simply done your job. I still don't know why there is this feeling around among some admins that Giano has to be treated with kid gloves. His behaviour is unacceptable. He has responded badly to advice, warnings, and your totally justified block. Community patience with him should be running out by now - mine certainly is. However, I feel at the moment that my hands are tied by some of the comments above. Giano apparently has a licence to run riot and cause disruption, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. As NoSeptember says, he has become a member of a new class of untouchable users. I'm distressed that this is happening. Metamagician3000 00:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Giano: Simple question, help teach me: Do you feel that, due to your editcounts, contributions, or past situation, that you're exempt from

WP:AGF? If a user was blocked previously and the admin who performed the block was desysopped, does that mean that the user in question is forever immune to obeying said rules? ~Kylu (u|t

) 00:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• One quiet Sunday evening six months ago, I stumbled on a conversation on this very page - I made two comments here [138] and here [139] for which I was indefinitely banned by Carnildo. Carnildo still regards this as "Hate Speech". Since the moment he blocked me he has never contacted me publicly or privately. Lar has described Carnildo as "brave" and having "the sort of attitude we need among admins". I have described Lar as a "fool" and variations thereof. For which Kylu attempted to block me for 48 hours. I stand by every word I have said. Now get on a and block me if you want to. I will be happy to be blocked for such an offence. Giano | talk 00:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• See also my two comments at the bottom of this WP:AN section. El_C 00:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Giano: Shhh. At this point, you've stated your case, poked people stating their case, and gotten lots and lots of reaction. We all think that Carnildo should apologize, but trying to force one from everyone who misunderstood or feels differently just isn't going to help. All calm, please, and Giano, shhhh, please. (I imagine all of us taking a moment, crossing our legs, touching our thumbs with our second fingers, placing our hands palm up on our knees, straightening our backs, closing our eyes, breathing deeply, and saying, "Ommmm mane padme hummmmm.") Geogre 11:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Don't Shshshshs me, Geogre! I have not left, I am awaiting my moment, rather like the second coming! Giano | talk 19:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.

linkspammer from yamourdotcom

After exchanging some comments on the user talk pages, I believe this dispute is settled and may be archived. See [140] and [141]. --5ko 00:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at this curious case of linkspamming (search engine optimization):

Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Vwxyz#yamour.com; watch for linkspamming particularly in the article "Wikipedia" or "wiki", and similar places in other language versions of Wikipedia. – Kaihsu

14:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

in response to these accusation i say that the link that was introduced was relevent to the subject , but due to the hypocracy of some editors and admins the links were removed .... it's plain simple hypocracy (it's like saying : we are willing to eat bread but we won't eat the cake because on this cake was given as a form of adds)... Newww 18:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

this user 5ko apparently does not understand that revealing personal infomations his documentare both against the law and against wikipedia rules. please note that this user has many faces (even some others like Петко ,....) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newww (talk • contribs)

Note that Newww is the same linkspammer as mentioned in the incident above. See the link provided there for the whole story. JoshuaZ 15:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry i forgot to sign , actually i am not the same person that added the link , but i am a member of the concerned site developping team , and i simply found it pure hypocrisy that my collegue be called spammer for adding a very imformative link, by someone (5ko) that is using anyway possible on wikipedia wikibooks and all the other projects to link to his site , this user under the name of 5ko(he has many other) has hundreds and hundreds of user profiles linking to his personal homepage .

while my collegue (who often removed spam and irrelivant links from wikipedia)
was banned  and was unable to access wikiedia by  his established personal profile 

(because his IP was blocked too) just because he insisted on his right on adding this informative link that is more relevant to the subject than many other. further more another collegue (overall admin) tried to contact 5ko and know why is he so focussing on removing the link , so the concerned user (5ko) publicly revealed the message in wikipedia (without any translation ) and the email address of my collegue , i then personally informed my collegue that sent him an email asking him to remove the email , so 5ko simply gave a link and said that the complete information can be found on this link , giving a link to the complete registration information that contain the email of the current admin (and the address of the original domain owner) Newww 16:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Whios information is publically viewable to anyone who cares to look. Wikipedia sites are copied multiple times en mass. The userpages are frequently copied. Do a search for my name and you will see multiple links to my website too, but I didn't put them all there. Adding likns to your website onto wikipedia articles is considered spam and will not be tolerated. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No-one has any "right" to add links to Wikipedia, informative or otherwise.

talk

| 17:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

there are 3 small details:

1- 5ko has hundreds of user profiles in different languages in wikipedia plus he has also used the same strategy (douzens of profiles in different douzens of languages) in wikibooks ,wikiquotes and every other wikimedia project. this is defenatly a SEO spammer

2- 5ko claims that the documment is SEO driven ,in other words it was made for the whole purpose of being put on wikipedia - my answer : what is the problem with that ? if it is informative and bringing something new there is no harm , if it can helps the average non computer skilled wikipedian then there is no harm in having it. from these 2 points we can sense the hypocrisy of 5ko Newww 17:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

3- 5ko is giving a link to the whois information and that is agaisnt the law , the information are public but to be exploited privately.

Someone might want to inform 5ko that all external links in userspace are rel="nofollow" and hence will be ignored by Google. Dragons flight 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The person's statements are not true: the only user profile pages that link to my homepage are here, and on :bg:. I have no ads, very few visitors and don't care about SEO. On the pictures' pages that I created for bg.Wikipedia, there is a ("nofollow") link to an information page on my site on how to update/modify the picture. --5ko 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Replying to each in turm

1) Userpages and pages not in the article space are set to have links

no follow

so your argument completely fails. 2)As I said before we will not tolerate you spamming us. Especially as your copyright claim on the page is downright bloody offensive to people who actually write wikipedia. 3)What law would that be. Why do you even care if people are encoraged to whois you? What are you trying to hide? I suppose he could delink it though. If that's what it takes to make a spammer go away I'll do it now. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 17:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I am involved here is that the person(s) posted a link on

here). See also bg:User talk:83.214.15.96. Please do what you need to do, I cannot come to en.Wikipedia very often. --5ko

17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Obvious from your attitude that you consider my friend the spammer and not 5ko

1) the first argument was to show you who is the real spammer , wether the no follow tag is used or not ,it is not the subject , the subject is that this 5ko guy is a professional spammer that have been spamming wikiprojects since years , in other words it is a major vandal not like those who add a link or 2 , this guy had added hundreds . it does not concern me , but when he pretends to be honnest and full of virtue he should think twice before commenting as he did ,it is plain hypocisy.

2)again i tell you , i had nothing to do with the link ,it was my collegue , having said so i think the link he provided is more informative than the majority of bull**it links that were on the page , but then it is up to you guys if you prefer that unless links are added by completly neutral editors (and i doubt it).

3)nothing to hide personally , but the email of my collegue is in public plus he already asked the guy to remove it,

i think we should find a way to defuse the tension instead of making it grow ... Newww 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

again 5ko is giving misleading information the french letters sent by my colleage are not threatening at all on the contrary , you can check it with google translator Newww 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear sir. The person who wrote me threatened me that he and his dozens of SEO experts will vandalize (again) my profile page and even my website if I remove your SEO link again. Then he made

legal threats asking to remove his e-mail address. Which I did : his address is no longer on the page with my letters. Greetings and cool off. --5ko

18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I insisted on my collegue to give me complete translation of the letters that were exchanged with the [multiface vandal 5ko , i wanted to present to for those that did not do the google translation of the document what was in these letters:

the 1st letter: sent by my collegue : sir we are noticed that you are focusing on the link we provided on wikipedia and that you are insisting on removing the link , your claim that it may have a relation with seo is true ,but you are forgetting the essence of wikipedia (that is to present usefull , understandable information) and the link that we provided has high informative value, higher than many links.

so when you pretend removing this link because it is a SEO it is dishonest and fishy. sir we have done our job to investigate your link to wikipedia and we were surprised to notice that you are a spammer of the biggest importance ,you have profiles in dozens of languages and in different wikimedia projects with links to your webpage hidden everywhere on wikipedia. (5ko answer here was that his page does not contain ads)

sir we are a team of 12 administrator , eventhough i often insist that they should never spam, many do not listen , but in this particular case the guys have done nothing wrong

i'm not telling you that my admins can behave like you are doing now and report every single spam link you have to administrators but i am telling you that SEO fighting is stupid and not constructive,

i noticed that you are from bulgaria and we do not have any developper for bulgare language , so if you are interesrted send me an email with your competence and CV...

This letter contain no threat , it is friendly and even offering a job .... again 5ko giving misleading infomations.

the 2nd letter: sent by my collegue after i informed him that 5ko is putting his email publicly : Sir i have many other things to do than try to resolve this problem between you and my admins , solve it on your owns between you and them. i was informed sir that you are displaying my email , i inform you sir that such actions are against the law and the rule of wikipedia (such issues have been known to lead to lawsuits)

5ko answer here was to present the whole whois info , adding to the previous infaction, the address of the domain seller and his info.

the problem is that my collegue 0T0 has his user/ip blocked so he can not have access to his main profile either and all this because of a spammer [multiface vandal that is being disonest in his arguments Newww 20:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny guy, I believe at least some administrators here understand French (for the others I added emphasis and translation

on the page). What do you want me to do to stop your spamming Wikipedia and waisting everyone's time? Remove your e-mail address (I did it)? Remove the publicly available Whois search for your domain (Theresa did it)? Allow your irrelevant link on the article Wikipedia (won't happen)? --5ko

21:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually the main issue is still unresolved : 0T0 and his IP are still blocked .

furthermore i want to know why old spammers like you are not punished ? Newww 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because we never spam anybody, as our websites[142] are ad-free and more importantly: seo-"experts"-free (unlike [http:// www.yamour.com/ yamour.com])

insulting Wikipedia editors, you should start by learning what is an encyclopedia, then do some contributions (at least one). --5ko

06:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Think At Least Twice is a sockpuppet of Zen-master

Rikurzhen

02:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of such. Old TI-89 02:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the user was created, then went straight to

Bryant

03:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's it. Please block. --

Rikurzhen

04:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's Zen-master. Blocked. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I added the {{blockedsock|Zen-master}} tag.

Bryant

00:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate userbox deleted

I've just deleted

Eagle atop swastika, a symbol of Nazi Germany. I consided this to be in extremely poor taste. --kingboyk

13:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I think your action was appropriate. While I think a userbox expressing concern over the German Userbox Solution is appropriate (and I think I would want one for myself), this particular userbox was in poor taste and could be easily construed as an attack on our German friends. EDIT: Thinking about it, I think it might be a good idea to let John Reid know about the deletion and ask him to explain the userbox. It's somewhat troubling and deserves discussion. Captainktainer * Talk 14:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Highly inappropriate IMHO. Putting our guidelines/policies next to the Swastika is distasteful, to say the least. —

The Future

14:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion. Metamagician3000 09:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I must point out that it wasn't the swastika, it was the eagle and I've been told it's actually the current German symbol. I unreservedly apologise for that mistake. Nonetheless I have declined to restore the userbox because I consider the phrases "sleepless nights" and "German solutions", plus the aforementioned eagle flag, to be too close in connotation to the "final solution". This doesn't detract from my apology regarding my mistake over German iconography. --kingboyk 09:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't have been in template space anyway per T2 and GUS, but perhaps the user concerned would be unimpressed by that line of reasoning! If it had just been coded on his own userpage, it might have been a trickier issue. The question in my mind would be whether it was a disreputable box stereotyping Germans as Nazis. I find it hard to be sure about that one way or the other, but I didn't even have to reach that issue. Metamagician3000 11:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

HehEXE

User HehEXE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HehEXE) continues to add a link to a non-notable site (thegshi.org) which contributes nothing to the articles in question (GameShark, Game Genie, and Action Replay); The site in question simply continues a repository of codes which (despite their claims to the contrary) are available on other sites already linked to. Since the link contributes nothing, I can only conclude that it is simply being added for advertisement (The user even has the linked to on his page, making it appear to be a conflict of interest) and thus is spam. However, all my attempts to remove it have been reverted. In order to avoid violating the 3 Revert rule, I am leaving the page as it currently is and would like to request that the user in question be blocked. Dlong 18:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In future, please use the {{spam[1-4]-n|article}}

Wikipedia:External Links policy. Not everyone knows that Wikipedia's definition of spam includes the self-promotion of sites that do not complement articles. --  Netsnipe  ► 

21:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Having investigated the situation more closely at HehEXE's behest, the truth is a bit more unsettling. Both Dlong (talk • contribs) and HehEXE (talk • contribs) and quite possibly along with members from their respective forums have actually been linkspam-warring by adding and removing external links to their own respective and rival cheat code forums: gscentral.org and thegshi.org. Both sides have been sternly warned for link spamming, sockpuppetry and edit warring. --  Netsnipe  ►  03:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Bobblewik (Special:Contributions/Bobblewik) - dates and units

I realise

disruptive. – Chacor

18:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Units are questionable in my opinion; there are some cases where non-metric units are preferable (or at the very least, both should be included). The only thing that's ever really come up is his date-delinking, which I would support a block for if he continues. Ral315 (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

His changing of the units seems to be mainly consistent with

WP:MOS. JoshuaZ

22:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong in particular with his unit changes. The more consistency the better. He actually seems to have a script to do some of this (User:Bobblewik/monobook.js/unitformatter.js), but I havn't noticed it malfunctioning. Some of the edits I've seen also retain the old units while adding metric ones, and he seems from a cursory look to do this in places where it's most appropriate. The date delinking is another matter. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't personally see a need for changing properly sourced information given in hectares to square kilometres. – Chacor 03:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Diff? If the source cites it in hectares, it would probably be better as: 989 hectares (9.89 square kilometres). Depends on the context. The MoS seems to like SI units, but it also says that the source's units should go first, with conversions after. So yeah, you have a very good point. This is likely a side effect of his automating this :/ -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This for one. Source says 6,000 hectares. If his complaint was really the precision of conversion, 3 s.f. works, he could easily change it. I'm not sure what he waas trying to accomplish. Another one here I didn't touch as the source requires registration and I can't be bothered to check, although it is likely it's in the source. – Chacor 06:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, it's stickier now. What Thebainer says below is it. He needs to check his changes instead of whipping through articles. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hectares are a metric unit, albeit from older forms of the metric system and not from the International System of Units. Square kilometres are an SI derived unit, and so are probably preferable in most cases. However where a hectares value has been drawn from a cited source, it ought not to be replaced with the equivalent square metres value, rather both values should be shown. Fact-checkers should not have to do unit conversions in order to verify statements in articles. I would advise Bobblewik to check every change of units to make sure that where a value is cited it is not replaced.

Aside from this, as long as the edits are not done at bot-like speed I see no other problems. --

talk

) 06:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible sneaky copyvio images from User:NorbertArthur

NorbertArthur (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has uploaded a large number of images, mostly of places in Romania, with names of the form "*.750px.jpg". At first he marked these images as being taken from websites, even providing the source URLs. Later, he seems to have switched to giving no summary at all, leading to the images being tagged as having no source. (But at least one image I just deleted had the text "© mielu.ro" on the image itself.) Now he's tagging his uploads as {{PD-self}}, and vehemently defending them, but they images don't seem any different from the earlier ones. I can't prove he didn't really take these later images himself, but it sure seems suspicious. I wonder how far I should go in assuming good faith here. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't. He's exhausted all good faith by having 5 blocks against his name. He's now on a 1 month block until September 24. --  Netsnipe  ►  07:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jtdirl's Conduct Regarding Prime minister Move Request

I made a comment at Talk:Prime minister#Jtdirl's Comments on User talk Pages regarding actions by Jtdirl that I find highly inappropriate, especially for an admin. A copy of the post is below:

I was originally going to let one of Jtdirl's comments on the

Irish Wikipedians' notice board

go, but seeing some of his other contributions, I must say something:

• 02:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC) -
  Prime Minister to Prime minister
• 02:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC) -
  Prime Minister to Prime minister
• 03:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC) - User talk:Bastun - Jt states, the illiterates seem to be queuing to endorse such a crazy move
• 03:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC) -
  Wikipedia:Irish Wikipedians' notice board
  - (half upper-case, half lower case!) removes neutrality from the move request advertisement and voices Jtdirl's shock at the naming
• 03:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC) - User talk:Jonto - Once again, Jt states, the illiterates seem to be queuing to endorse such a crazy move
• 03:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC) - User talk:172 - Jtdirl states that constitutional illiterates are championing the illiterate form
• 03:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC) -
  Prime Minister to the ridiculous Prime minister
• 14:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC) - User talk:Ardfern - Jt states, Some users with a chronic lack of understanding of English moved the page to the ludicrous Prime minister
• 14:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC) - User talk:Setanta747 - Mal thanks Jt for notifying him of the move request, and Jt responds saying No problem. It really is crazy. He adds The contribution on the talk page show that most of those contributing don't know either the requirements in the MoS and NC or indeed the basic rules of English. and even welcomes Mal to point out the requested move to other users, saying Feel free to mention this case to others if you wish. Jt, interestingly enough, also adds Be careful however not to tell people how to vote. That is against WP rules.

I interpret this as Jtdirl vote stacking and being incivil at the same time. Comments from others, and Jt, are of course welcome. -- tariqabjotu 23:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

See also some of Jt's other comments on Talk:Prime minister, as well as Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Prime Minister Move, for further information. I suppose discussion should remain in one location, but I'd thought I'd just put the message in two places, and let the forum for discussion be chosen at a later point in time. -- tariqabjotu 23:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Posting incivil, biased vote alerts to multiple user talk pages is not on. There is dissonance between "Some users with a chronic lack of understanding of English moved the page to the ludicrous Prime minister..." and "Be careful however not to tell people how to vote. That is against WP rules." When you tell people that "illiterates" are supporting a "ridiculous" title I'd say that's a pretty strong hint that you'd like them to vote the other way. Haukur 08:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

132.241.246.111 has deliberately inserted a typo into a comment by another editor:

attack

See also “Bogus Sprotect Tags Posted by Vandal” and “Another Bogus Sprotect Tag Posted by 132.241.246.111”. —12.72.69.54 00:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Will someone please block this account as an imposter of

01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked -- Samir धर्म 01:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've struck his vote in Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/JPD, where he signed as Shanel. --Rory096 01:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryodox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Constant revision David Duke article, along with history of Propagating racist material. 69.167.100.155 04:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a vandalism spree, evidently originating mostly from open proxies (sample edit [143] on the talk pages of Reuters, Fox News, CNBC, and a bunch of others. See the contributions for:

• Powerfuluser (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)
• Theonlyboss (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)
• Knowernumberone (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)
• Allpower1 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)
• Thenumberone (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) (see a pattern yet? lol)

and a bunch of others. He doesn't like me very much (there's a couple love letters on my talk page of the usual type), but alas, I have to sign off for the night. He's introducing a strange sort of spam, and substituting a Yahoo link for the actual organization home web site. I've sprotected Reuters and its talk page, but can someone else take over watching these? Thanks everyone. Antandrus (talk) 05:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Backslashing proxies can be listed at
  Thatcher131 (talk)
  13:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks: good to know. Looks like this person went away just as I signed off last night anyway, but he's a persistent pest, so will likely return. Antandrus (talk) 14:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Could another admin take a look at

07:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think his argument is inappropriately (for our purposes) legalistic. I could elaborate, but it would take a long screed, which might not be required. Metamagician3000 13:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

While I can see that the last time I brought this up on this board, it wasn't really seen as necessary, but Kyereh Mireku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) states he is 7, claims he has "the world`s largest publishing company," and has recently tried to restart User:Kingbot, as seen at Wikipedia:Bot requests and his edits at Kingbot's page. I do not really see any positive contributions this editor is providing to the encyclopedia right now. Ryūlóng 10:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Underage in what sense? the only
  VectorPotential
  ^{71.247.243.173} 11:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• That's extremely bizarre! I blocked the account
  talk · contribs) could present difficulties for that user if they ever come back. I'll see if I can grab the User:KingBot account as it seems the young editor in question has their eyes on using that name too. --kingboyk
  11:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, I would assume that even the UK and Canada have a cut off age at ten, especially when this user wants to use a bot and his account is less than a month or so old. Ryūlóng 11:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
    • 10 isn't the age of consent in any country or municipality that I'm aware of, 16, 18, or 21 come to mind--
      VectorPotential
      ^{71.247.243.173} 11:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Our own article suggests
        VectorPotential
        ^{71.247.243.173} 12:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
        • I think what the "underage" part of the issue is related to our newly favroite accronym,
          COPPA (which is 13). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)}
          19:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Age notwithstanding, the editor has received a number of warning message with respect to his edits and has not heeded them. I've blocked the user for 48 hours. User:Ryulong has left the editor a "welcome" message with reading material for newcomers; hopefully, he'll take the time to read it during the 48 hours away from editing. — ERcheck (talk) 12:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A quick scan also showed a number of possibly deleteable article, images and templates that might need looking at. Agathoclea 12:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If he is making bad-faith edits, block him for vandalism. If he is making good-faith edits, then slowly guide him through correcting his mistakes; set him up with a mentor if you don't have the time. I see dozens upon dozens of vandalism warning templates on his talk page which I can't possibly imagine could breed any consequences other than scaring him away, which is unacceptable. Most importantly, do not attach derogatory adjectives to users such as 'underage'; I wasn't aware Wikipedia was ever tolerant of adultism. ~ PseudoSudo 12:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• He has made some apparently good faith edits to articles about children's television shows. — ERcheck (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  Thus making him ineligible for blocks for those edits. ~ PseudoSudo 13:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There is substantial personal identifying information on this 7-year-old user's userpage. Are we enforcing

13:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Got to go through an MfD. ~ PseudoSudo 13:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that the whole page be deleted, just whether the last name and e-mail address should be removed. I'm totally against imposing a "minimum age" on users, but I think the idea of not allowing the youngest users to post identifying information had broad consensus support. Newyorkbrad 14:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

No mfd is needed to remove the personal details of a 7 year old. I have gone ahead and done so. pschemp | talk 14:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:IAR than an enforcement of a rule. *Dan T.*

14:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing that information is the correct thing to do.

WP:DENY is a proposed policy too, but people are still using it. Are you saying we should let pedophiles get this information while we debate policy? pschemp | talk

14:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

WTF is this constant refrain of 'it isn't policy yet'??? Policy is just what we do, it emerges, it is not adopted. It isn't frigg'n legislation that needs a vote and then gets put on the statute book by royal assent. If it is a good idea, do it. If lots of people start doing it - then it has become policy. If folk do't do it - then we've rejected it. As simple as that. --

Doc

14:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And what if 50% of the community doesn't approve of what you're doing? Do you still do it? ~ PseudoSudo 14:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you can. But if your arguments are so weak that most people are unconvinced, you will be reverted anyway. That's a wiki for you.--

Doc

15:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Please show me one person here who thinks leaving information for pedophiles is a good idea. pschemp | talk 15:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarification, my comment above was in direct response to Doc glasgow's. ~ PseudoSudo 15:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have oversighted all revisions of this user's userpage which contain personally-identifiable information. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that is the proper course of action here. I don't see the need of hiding the information from the eyes of our administrators. ~ PseudoSudo 15:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, we have 1000 admins. I think oversighting these away is prudent and that's not a violatoin of assuming good faith. it's just wise... ++Lar: t/c 17:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Tyrenius 17:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

think that it is not mandatory that this info be removed, necessarily, if there is good reason to believe the user isn't actually 7, or if the information looks like it was given voluntarily with parental consent. But, policy or not, if another admin whose judgement I respect removed it, that's good enough for me and I'd prefer not to war about it. In general there just seems to be way too much "but it isn't policy" going around these days. Even for policy wonks like me. I repeat... I respect the judgement of my fellow admins. more than "50% of the community" whatever that means, this ain't no democracy ++Lar: t/c 15:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a very bad idea to have 7 year olds identifying themselves — for more than one reason. To protect the user and the project, it would be prudent to not allow anything that identifies anyone under a certain age, 16 if you want to be on the safe side. MySpace has an automatic privacy setting for anyone under 14. Tyrenius 15:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but we need to be quite clear about what the reasons are and what Wikipedia is required to do - legally, morally, practically - about it. Before we have a policy we need to discuss what the good reasons are. The Land 15:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and let me mention one of the other reasons since most folks are too politically correct to mention it: "Wikipedia, the encyclopedia written by seven year old kids". Doesn't sound too great does it? --kingboyk 16:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There's two immediately obvious reasons. 1) to protect young people from being contacted inappropriately 2) to prevent any very unsavoury media stories. The legal aspect is hardly our remit, unless there are any specialist lawyers here. There's no point in an amateur approach to that. It would be better if this discussion were moved to a dedicated page. Tyrenius 17:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Or if we just involved Danny and Brad and let them make a call. But in the meantime, I think prudence is better than asserting "it's not policy". I support the actions of admins to be conservative, and prudent. ++Lar: t/c 17:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It is sometimes better with the Foundation's status as the "Carrier", if they're not involved. I'm sure they will be, if they want to be. A simple exercise of due diligence for us is to not allow age identification of under-16s (which was the cause of a recent debacle). This should be stated on the new user/log in page. If necessary young users may be required to change to a new user name, something which should be explained kindly to them. Tyrenius 17:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this person's User name their full name? If so, we have an underage-claiming editor revealing their last name. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It isn't their full name, but it does include their last name. Though he isn't claiming underage-ness now since the age was removed, certainly its easy to find due to this thread. A username change is probably in order, however I'm not sure how to go about it in this case. pschemp | talk 18:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A note should be placed on the user's talk page, explaining the community's concern. Presumably this might be seen by the user's parent or whoever is assisting with the editing (I respect our younger Wikipedians but I assume a 7 y/o is having some assistance). I would draft the note myself but I'm not familiar with the protocol for name changes, etc. Newyorkbrad 19:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Would User:Yuckfoo's name be considered inapropreit? (Switching the Y and F makes it "Fuckyoo") This might not be the best place, but I was recomended by an administraitor to come here.--KojiDude 17:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Long-standing, relatively good-faith editor. I personally see no problem. – Chacor 17:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no problem. Even if it is a deliberate play on words (and it probably isn't) so what? Let's not go OTT on the offensive username idea. If no one actually finds it offensive then it isn't. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty then. I just wanted to get some outside opinions from administraitors. I guess I jump to conclusions a little too fast. Like when I thought my Uncle was an alien from planet lasagnia when I was 5...--KojiDude 19:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got rid of around 30 links in the last 30 minutes (some from last night) to this address (link search) bmd-certificates. Each post is from a different IP so warnings don't seem useful. At the time of posting this there are none around but every few minutes another one appears. Any way to tackle this effectively? Regards --Nigel ^(Talk) 17:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A quick pgkbot whois check with the IRC bot returns [01:38am] pgkbot: ADSL Dynamic IP address pool (ar2.he1) PIPEX Communications (Country: GB) 85.210.15.0/24 (No list match) - perhaps contact the abuse person-in-charge. – Chacor 17:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You could put the link on the spam blacklist. Hbdragon88 17:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Point me to a link for the blacklist - they are still at it? Cheers --Nigel ^(Talk) 17:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've called in

17:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - was getting boring! --Nigel ^(Talk) 17:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Mark and Pathoschild! meta:Spam blacklist --  Netsnipe  ►  17:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll second that - many thanks. Regards --Nigel ^(Talk) 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=EccentricRichard ... I tried to revert his pagemoves but some of them can't be undone without admin help, so I posted it here. — CharlotteWebb 18:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• No warning had yet been posted on the user page. (I've left one.) For now he seems to have stopped. I'm reviewing the moves. — ERcheck (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I've fixed all of them except for the organ article, which needs checking. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks Zoe. I fixed the Organ and all the extra talk pages. I think it is done now. — ERcheck (talk) 19:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He has continued and, interestingly, accused me of vandalism [144]. — CharlotteWebb 20:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This user seriously needs to be blocked for a short period. He did this way back in June, unilaterally moving Train station to railway station, as well as other moves. Looks like he's back in move page vandalism. Hbdragon88 21:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This user has shown a blatant disregard for process and warning messages. After his first round of redirects today(which were repaired), he received a clear warning. He then returned less than 3 hours later to do the same thing, laying claim to the articles. Considering his long history of vandalism, disruption, etc., I've blocked him indefinitely. — ERcheck (talk) 21:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Some of his contribtuiosn are funny though, like this one about telling vandals to knock it off [145], claiming that common sense overrides WP naming policy [[146]], and his claim that he is the biggest contributor so he can renmae it to the subpage style [147]. Hbdragon88 21:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

HorizontalDoors (talk · contribs) has just joined wikipedia. Has two edits: the first edit is adding a pagemove vandalism block template to his userpage, the second shows him claiming to be a WoW-meatpuppet. Is this wrong behaviour? And if so, what are the consequences for him? Aecis ^{Appleknocker Flophouse} 20:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that this is "wrong behaviour" and the first admin to read this should block indef. Newyorkbrad 20:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Newyorkbrad.--KojiDude 20:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Consequences? An immediate block by

User:Naconkantari, evidently ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c

) 21:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The account also needs to be checkusered, as it is operating through an open proxy [148].

Naconkantari

21:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Last week I blocked User:207.200.116.138 for one week for persistent vandalism. User:Sca has e-mailed me to say that he is affected by the block as collateral damage. Can someone assist me in getting him unblocked but leaving the IP address block in place for the duration, please? It is currently 2245 GMT here, so I will be offline for a few hours from now on. (aeropagitica) 22:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I wonder whether someone can review the block used by User:InShaneee against User:Juro. I am not sure to what extent this was a real personal attack. Since both users are involved in an ongoing personal dispute (Juro disputed his previous block, placed after what Inshaneee called "disruptive behavior", see User talk:Juro), perhaps someone more objective should look at it again. I would say that Juro's style of communication is often on the edge, but he is one of the most prolific and valuable contributors in Central Europe. Moreover, the original "disruptive behavior" (after which InShaneee intervened) included reaction to nationalist personal attacks (as I explained here) and charges of sockpuppetry that are not completely unfounded in my opinion. Tankred 23:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Several anons have been posting absolute nonsense to the Dave Schools article over the span of the last month without being caught. I've reverted back to the August 4 version. I don't know if this is one person doing the vandalism or if there's some sort of concerted attack, but it might be a good idea to keep an eye out. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)